ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[scott]

Liam,

I am sorry to correct you, but I don't think Francois Gigot de la Peyronie would appreciate your pronunciation of his name.  Names are not normally Anglicized; hence, the proper pronunciation is as follows:

                   pay ro NEEZ

I may not know nearly as much as the rest of you guys about supplements, VED's, etc. but I do know my French, even if my spoken French is with a heavy Southern accent...

Scott

[Hawk]

The interesting thing is that something could have this much of an impact on our lives, that we dedicate so much attention to it, and yet actually say it so seldom.

[csup]

All I know is that ever since I "contracted" this mess about 3 weeks ago, I have said that word over and over in my head, maybe 1000 times by now. It is hard to think of anything else during the day, or night for that matter. Now to bring this post back on target, I saw something about Bromelain as a possibility to help fight Peyronies Disease. Anything good on this that anyone knows about?
crs

[Rico]

csup,

I understand the feeling you are having, the first few months of this mess can be very trying....it can shake the strongest man...I can say for myself that I have better days now...nature and prayer has help along with exercise and being able to come to the forum and talk with my brothers here, you are not alone and our prayers are with you..

Bromelain comes from pineapple stems and is use for inflammation(bruising by some boxing trainers) after a fight...sort of like taking a Epsom salt bath, it is also like other enzymes thought to fight plaque, the type that you would get in your veins.....inflammation is always good to keep under control, but I would find it hard press to believe this could remove the plaque in your unit...I used it in the beginning along with some ofther enzymes for a couple of weeks...more research brought me to believe I could be spending my money and efforts in other supplements....now anytime someone is improving there blood flow, from removing the plaque in your blood this could be good, but this to me is for someone with a underlying health issue and once again over all health in my opinion can't hurt one in healing your peyronies.....I don't like to take too many supplements at once, so I try to focus on what I believe will work together, and these focus on circulation, getting as much oxygen to my unit...I have found for me ginkgo and red Korean ginseng along with opc's and Isomer E are giving me this...diet of anti inflammation....the dmso I use now I believe is more for oxygen also, dmso is a vacillator.

I will also say from what I know now, I would think hard about taking the pentox/arginine/Viagra as soon as possible, this is easy to do, thought out and used by the cutting edge urologist on peyronies today....and when I was stable I would then move onto the VED treatment....some of us have concerns to think about....high blood pressure and many other medical conditions one has to take in consideration,  even something as a hot Epsom bath might not work for someone with high blood pressure and one has to know how other drugs might interact with each other.....also if you are taking the pentox/arginine/Viagra then all you need to do is take a multi vitamin and eat right and exercise and maybe work on the mental aspect of this disease.....I have spent hundreds of hours on research on supplements and foods for inflammation, this can take more time than one wants to do, and also confusing at times....

Remember the first six months is the time to act, stop your inflammation in your body now, this includes from looking at dental health ect...then look at yourself and say what works for me, George, Tim, Liam, Hawk ect...all have much knowledge and understand there body and there health issues....sit down and evaluate your life style, health condition and make a plan that you can stick with for the next three months, focus on inflammation and if putting a supplement plan together and sticking to it, which is not easy, then maybe the pentox/arginine/Viagra would be for you, do you have the financial ability also to do this? Most supplements and herbs take time also, so by going for one to another every other week won't do you much good, especially enzymes....I do feel like I'm moving forward, the ved is showing some results and the ginkgo which I just started several weeks now is helping....I will go back to my urologist soon for a six month check up and explore the pentox/arginine/Viagra or maybe just the trazdone.... I have in the past found some supplements to work well and then wear off, so I want to see if the ginkgo keeps working for me....

I know this isn't the case for all the brothers of peyronies, but I do believe a large number get better or become stable...so time in this case is on your side and it does heal....most people I believe if they become cured, do not spend there time on the internet on a peyronies board, so take with a pinch of salt when you read a depressing post also...try to find your plan that will once again fit your budget and needs....The Old Man and Angus are true pioneers in the VED and Saints as far as helping you with the protocol...George knows his supplements, Tim is a Doctor, ComeBackid is always looking and working for peyronies awareness...you have a large source of knowledge here to draw form... I think my first month I just read every post and didn't post...when I ordered my VED I read the VED thread several times and had pm's with Old Man and Angus which was great help, listening to Mick's success and now Mr. Dillion...this will give you hope also...you are at a good spot here and are prayers and hope are with you..

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15387493/wid/11915773?GT1=8618

[csup]

Rico,
Thanks so much for your excellent and thought provoking post. In the short time I have been a member here, I have come to realize that many of you have unfortunately been involved with this disease for a long time. The good that comes from this is all the research and knowledge that is available on this site to the newbees such as myself. We have the benefit of perhaps being able to treat this malady with treatments that are actually working and not just website hype.

I am currently looking for a new Uro that will have some current case study on Peyronies Disease, and hopefully consider the non traditional treatments. Although after reading the recent post by ComeBackid 135, I am not sure about the herbal approach to things anymore. I also have an enlarged prostate, and am taking a trial 30 supply of Uroxatral. Not sure if this is working totally yet. Only been on it 1.5 weeks. I am also lucky in that I have good insurance, and any Dr. prescribed drug program will not cause me to have to sell my house. Maybe just my first born. LOL.

Currently I seem to have one nodule that runs thru from top to bottom on my penis near the base. This nodule seems to be between the Corpus Cavernosum. This is causing an indent on the bottom during an erection. I can also bend the shaft fairly easily at this point while erect. I don't have any curvature at this time, and I am very thankful for that. I guess what scares me the most is reading about some of you that have very bad curvature, and not knowing if mine will progress to this state.  I actually dread getting an erection wondering if the next one will show a worse progression. Ok, enough of that. I am very lucky, I have fairly good health otherwise, and am far better off than a lot of people in the world. I thank all of you for your thoughts and prayers, as my thoughts and prayers are with all of you also. As they say: One Day at a Time.

crs

[George999]

When it comes to evaluating supplements I believe it is important to 1) go to google and google the supplement in question followed by "site:.gov", and two, repeat followed by "site:.edu".  The resulting hits will give you some idea of what sort of existing research has been done on that particular supplement.  I also like to google supplements followed by "interactions" and then by "side effects" and "toxicity".  I believe it is really important to get a firm grasp of how the given supplement works (or fails to work) and what, if any, might be its undesirable side effects and interactions.  The last place to look for information is on the site selling the supplement.  In other words, don't believe the hype.

But I will say again for the umpteenth time.  If your Peyronies is really debilitating for you, the Pentox approach is probably your best shot for a cure at this point.  And the doc to contact (or have your uro contact) at this point is:

http://urology.ucsf.edu/faculty/facLue.html

- George

[Hawk]

Good link ComeBackid.  It adds some balance to the topic.

[George999]

With mounting evidence as to the effectiveness of the Pentox/Viagra/Arginine protocol for Peyronies, I have found it fascinating to explore what might be a potential supplement based 'analog' to that approach:

Horny Goat Weed with its standardized Icariin content would be a natural choice for a stand in for Viagra.

My choice for an Arginine analog would be Maca at this point, or perhaps better yet, a Norvaline reinforced Arginine formula.  The problem with Arginine is uptake and delivery.

The really hard part has been finding a suitable drop in for Pentox.  But when one looks at the characteristics and chemical attributes of Pentox, low and behold, the substance that jumps out is Theophyline, a major component of Cocoa.  The two are closely related and share many pharmacological characteristics.  It has been discovered recently that people who consume lots of Theophyline have a significantly reduced level of disease as compared to those who don't.  I am convinced that something is cooking here, and though I have long been taking all three of these, at this point they will recieve more of my attention.

The other two areas that I will continue to work on are anti-oxidation (with Vitamins C and E), and inflamation (with Mangosteen and Fish Oil, since I am now taking thiazide for my hypertension and can no longer take aloe vera).

One area I am backing away from is the whole anti-fibrotic scene with Neprinol, Nattokinase, etc.  Recent studies have indicated that antifibrotic strategies my actually backfire on the user and may actually, through some unknown pathway actually make the problem worse.  So at this point, I am becoming more cautious with that approach.

But I am really quite happy with the Horny Goat Weed, Maca, Theophyline approach, and will be putting more emphasis on it going forward.

[George999]

Hawk, I agree that the article ComeBackid linked tends to bring some balance to the subject of supplements.  But I also think that it is more than a bit one sided in several ways.  In the first place, it takes a few dramatic failures and, from that, attempts to paint a broad and rather inaccurate picture about supplements.  In reality, the pubmed archives of full of studies demonstrating the effectiveness of supplements.  In that regard, it is similar to articles that appear in the main stream press touting the latest 'curative breakthroughs' from the pharmaceutical industry.  Then when one digs deeper, one finds that the 'discovery' in question is much more complex than what the press makes it out to be.  This is something that doctors find very frustrating.  This article does, essentially the same thing in reverse with supplements.  And in fact, the article is not even accurate.  The study on glucosamine plus chondroitin sulphate found only that these supplements were not as effective as what they are promoted to be.  I read the abstract at the time and it gave a completely different picture than the resulting headlines.  This article also gives the impression that finally a study has been done on glucosamine plus chondroitin, and it was a 'bust'.  The fact is that one can find a multitude of conflicting studies and metastudies on glucosamine plus chondroitin that have been done over the last few years.  But the story never even mentions that fact.  So the press is the press and they like to write sensational stories that sell and get hits.  But real life is considerably more complicated than what they make it out to be.

-George

[Hawk]

George,

I agree with all you have said.  I think the hype and inaccuracy resides on both sides.  I heard ,would you believe, a study on scholarly studies that concluded their conclusions have no more than a 50% accuracy rate due to flawed procedures, or conclusions not supported by findings.  I immediately wondered if this study on the accuracy of studies fell within the same 50% chance of faulty conclusions.

It is the norm for people to mistake evidence for proof, anecdotal evidence as reliable, and isolated studes as the last word, and to over simplify issues.  Living in the world of legal evidence, and the world of systematic trouble-shooting of electronics, I have seen the tenacity with which people pursue the wrong course.  I have found it far too common, that even those trained to follow the facts and reach conclusions get side-tracked on a regular basis.  

[Tim468]

Theophylline is a prescription drug, and has a nasty side effect of causing seizures when one gets too much on-board. I am so glad that we do not use it for asthma anymore.

Caffeine may exert some of the same effects as theo on airways (in asthma).

As for cocoa, recall that the Kuna Amerinds in central America do not get high blood pressure - and this was linked to their very high intake of cocoa.

http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/news/ng.asp?id=21541-cocoa-consuming-population

http://facultyresearch.bwh.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/search.cgi?id=231

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16877960&itool=iconabstr&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

Tim

[Rico]

Coca or "Dark Chocolate" ...it must be dark...it is full of pycnogenol, as is grape seeds and french martime pine bark...excellent for circulation... the only down side on dark chocolate is it is high in calories....but I take it in small amounts....you can buy organic and part of the funds go to saving the rain forest..it is very good..a little bitter, not much sugar.....OPC's are really something I think if research you will find are one of the better ways to increase circulation....

I'm going into my sixth week of ginkgo now....60mg twice a day and can see a difference in my hanging and blood flow, I'm also in my sixth week of VED and see results as far as thickness during flaccid state, I'm very happy with this look, this is better than peyronies, I went from a grower to a shower....next week with be the seventh week and the large cylinder, this is what I'm looking for now, will give a bench mark and I will post measurements at the end of two months in two weeks and every following two months....

Advil Pm which is new on the market has dphenhydramine... I have been using this for several days on and off....I know dphenhydramine suppose to stop scarring..... I take my last 60mg of ginkgo and it at night, makes me sleep and stops inflammation along with the dphenhydramine to hinder scarring and the ginkgo, well you wake up with some wood....

I found it interesting that my girth got bigger after using the small tube, it was a stand still after the b cylinder...the more I thought about it was that when it is in the a tube(small) the plaque is pressed up against the wall of the tube, like the Old Man says, a straight jacket, or if could imagine pushing a piece of gum or taffy against a window, it only has one way to go, out, make it thinner......if you are using to large of a tube, it doesn't press against anything...NO MOLDING...this is why when then massage the plaque away they press hard on it.....it is the small confind space that works as ones hands to press it up against the plastic or tube....even pressure....it the plaque has somewhere to go, or the surrounding tissue it won't mold to a new form, it is like a pressure molder or form molder....I have found for me to work for about 3 or 4 minutes with light pumps and then the next 3 or 4 minutes with a little more pressure and ending the last two minutes with what I feel is Maxim for me, then a minute of easy warm down, I never go over 10 minutes for myself at this time, I hope to start adding a minute per session till I work up to a 30 minute session.... you do get a feel for it....

Rico

[George999]

Hawk, you know, I think that all studies are flawed in some way.  Some are done better than others but there simply is no 'perfect' study.  It is just to easy to review any given study and end up with more questions than answers (and at times, those questions have just as much value as the answers).  I think that we have to look critically not only at the studies whose findings we disagree with, but we also have to look doubly critically at those studies whose findings we agree with.  And that is not an easy thing to do.  And while various 'controls' and 'standard practices' have significant value, they should not be the end in itself.  There are actually some very poorly done studies that produce useful information and plenty of useful questions.  Granted, that information needs to be verified in a more professionally administered followup study, but it is very easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater.  And studies of supplements are inordinately vulnerable to abusive reviews in the press.  If a reporter blasts a prescription drug, they open themselves to big time legal action if they don't have all their facts lined up.  But when is the last time you heard of a supplement company threatening legal action against a reporter?  The supplement industry is indeed well heeled, but compared to the pharmaceutical industry they are indeed paupers.

[Rico]

Dear Forum Members and Guest:

Like George I have also been trying to duplicate to some degree the pentox/arginine/Viagra formula with supplements.... I use aginine a blend that I like...and ginseng, ginkgo, opc's, ect.... I have notice some good blood flow to my unit, now I'm using the VED also.... but I can tell since the ginkgo more warmth in my hands and feet, so I been doing research...

I found and you can read this at www.mayoclinic.com search under Ginkgo (ginkgo biloba L.)

The do a study on ginkgo vs trental(pentox)....claudication(painful legs from clogged arteries) is a diesease that trental(pentox) is prescribe for... this is where they use the ginkgo along with moderate exercise..... on the side of each case they look at for ginkgo such as the claudication they grade it for it's use..... this can go from A Thur F     ginkgo for claudication got a A and it stated this meant  A- strong scientific evidence for this use....

Coming from Mayo Clinic I felt positive about the ginkgo and the effects being somewhat along the lines of what I was trying to duplicate.... now the Viagra is the only question.... Horny Goat Weed... by getting a time released nox arginine one might be getting enough oxygen along with diet and OPC's and the VED.... I think we all have to evaluate ourselves....

Rico

[George999]

Tim, Theophyline is also a major component of cocoa, and while too much of it can be toxic, the same is even more true of its pharmaceutical cousin Pentox. One of the major problems with early experimentations with Pentox was its extremely nasty side effects.  What made Pentox the success it is today is the discovery that combining it with other substances (Viagra, Vitamin E, Arginine, etc.) made it possible to get good results with far less Pentox.  I would suspect the same might be true of Theophyline, since it has extremely similar pharmaceutical qualities.  The recommended amount of cocoa for an optimum dose of Theophyline is 4g per day and that is what I am for.  I have been taking it for some time now (I bought 34lbs of it!), and have not suffered any noticeable ill effects as a result, at least none that I have been able to connect to the cocoa.

Rico, Actually Dark Chocolate and Cocoa are not the same thing.  Dark Chocolate is a confection made from a mixture of Cocoa Nuts and Cocoa Butter, along with sweeteners and other 'adulterants'.  I prefer to consume pure Cocoa Nuts which I have ordered in bulk from the Carribean which are sugar free and have very little fat content.  It is also much less contaminated with heavy metals which somehow tend to find their way into Dark Chocolate.  I get the 'nib' or crushed form of the Nuts, rather than the powdered form.  This allows me to weed out the pieces of husk which tend to be loaded with lead.  And once those are ground up into the powdered form, there is really no practical way to get it out.  This is why I try to avoid the powdered form.

- George

[George999]

Rico, great find on the Ginkgo!  Mayo Clinic is indeed a great source of info on supplements.  It does indeed appear to be another possible 'work alike' substance in relation to Pentox.  Unfortunately, I am taking Thiazide and Ginkgo, like Aloe Vera is also an anti-diuretic, thus conflicting with Thiazide drugs.  (Aloe Vera also has the characteristic of depleting potasium, which is also not good for use with thiazides).  Its amazing the number of drug interactions you find with supplements.  I would suggest to all who are using supplements to make use of online interaction checkers to make sure you are not in danger of poisoning yourself with potential interactions.  Here is a good checker: http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/Interaction/ChooseDrugs/1,4109,,00.html

This is one reason I simply write off the suggestions of some who say that supplements have no pharmacuetical value.  If this were indeed true, one would not have to be concerned about interactions with supplements any more than with food.

- George

[George999]

For those of you who might not be aware of just how 'hot' Pentox is these days in terms of research efforts:

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00243789

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00267670

http://www.clinicaltrial.gov/ct/show/NCT00188552

http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/show/NCT00285298

Thats just a sampling.  Note that they are all currently recruiting!  Thats just how promising Pentox is at this point when it comes to diseases involving fibrosis.

- George

[mark501]

In Feb of 06 Dr. Lue released a paper describing a case report of a 51 year old with peyronie's & a 30 degree curvature. The patient was prescribed pentoxifylline 400mg three times a day & took the medication for 6 months. Upon re-evaluation at 6 months his penis had straightened to 10 degrees but still demonstrated an hourglass deformity. It also stated that a series of 16 patients with extended follow-up would be soon part of a new report to further describe the eficacy of pentoxifylline. Does anyone know if this follow-up report has been released yet? Does anyone know of an MD that has prescribed a different dosage other than 400mg 3X a day for peyronie's? Thanks.

[George999]

Mark, one thing I can tell you about Pentoxifylline is that one of the major problems in its use is that as the doses are increased and get more effective, the Pentoxifylline becomes more toxic.  The solution has been to combine smaller amounts of it with everything from Viagra to Vitamin E and Arginine and other substances.  If Dr. Lue is specifying 400mg three times a day, it is probably because he has found that to be the optimum dosage.  High enough to be effective in combination with other prescribed substances but low enough to be safe.  Safety has been a significant problem with Pentoxifylline.  As the dosage is increased, the side effects tend to become very pronounced.  At this point in time Dr. Lue is one of a handful of real gurus when it comes to Pentoxifylline.  I would trust his judgement on the dosage issue.  The bigger question is what can be taken along with it to add to its punch.

- George

[Hawk]

My read on Pentox is that as meds go it is considered very safe in people with normal kidney function even at levels of 800 mg 3 X per day.   While I guess we can call all substances toxic, and while things like poor kidney function can increase risk of most such substances, Pentox has low toxicity, and rare occurrence of any serious side effects.

[Rico]

Mark501,

The report you are talking about had been discussed several times on this forum...no follow up report....once again if you scan Thur the forum you will find many post on this report...

I have read some doctors prescribe pentox 400mg twice a day..... It seems Lue is on the 3x400mg and does seem to be " The Man" when it comes to this formula....kind of like the Old Man when it comes to the VED..God Bless HIM!!

Someone could take pentox 400mg x 2 per day and 50 mg of Viagra and who knows.....I have read the 50mg of Viagra taken three times a week for penis health.... I wonder if the Viagra dose is kept at where it is for cost effective? If one already has good circulation then what is the best formula, does one size fit all?? This is a problem I always see with OTC meds and supplements..... if I read a label that says one a day, well if you weight 100lbs or 200 lbs....what is it written for, I start with low dose and then adjust base on how I feel.... I'm looking at 400mg twice a day with arginine of 500 three times a day and 50mg of Viagra once a day....or 50mg of trading a day....I put this out to some doctors but got no answer on my email yet...so I'm doing the research my self....if I have to spend 150-200 dollars on Viagra a month for six months I will find a way to make it happen.....

If I was lucky enough to have Lue for my doctor, this is what I would ask him, if money is not the question, then what should I do, if I workout and exercise a lot and have good circulation, then would two x400mg of pentox be enough and more Viagra ect....maybe someone who is seeing lue could ask him this for all of us:)....

Rico

[percival]

While waiting for some results from those of you pioneering the Pentox trials, I am continuing with supplements. The reports here suggest that norvaline is worth adding to my 1g/day arginine. However, I am not sure how much norvaline should be added. Another problem is in the availability of norvaline here in the UK - so far I can only find it in body building formulations such as:

Arginine E2 Matrix Blend – 2150 mg.
- Arginine Ethyl Ester HCI
- Ornithine Ethyl Ester HCI
- Norvaline

The norvaline content is not stated, and I am not sure whether ornithine is good or bad for Peyronies Disease. I think that supplying these as ethyl esters hardly matters except that it makes them more expensive.

Another formulation I have found is:

DiArginine malate
Citrulline malate
L-Norvaline
Cinsulin™
taurine

Again, the quantities are not stated and the other items may not be suitable for Peyronies Disease.

As you might expect, these supplements are not cheap, and are accompanied by a lot of marketing hype.

I would rather use straight norvaline if I can find it, preferably in the UK - any suggestions?

Also, a UK source of natural Vitamin E with high gamma tocopherol + tocotrienes would be useful.

Percival

[Tim468]

I was taking Zyflamend when my Peyronies Disease got significantly worse. The cause of it? I doubt it. But certainly didn't keep me from getting worse.

Tim

[DannyOcean]

Just wanted to bump this as I fear it might get buried in all the "spicy talk" that's been going on here lately...




Hey all.  Looking for ways to tweak my meds/supplements and thinking that I should probably look into a better form of Arginine.  Currently I'm taking tablet from NOW Pharmaceuticals.  The labels says "Double strength, free form and under ingredients all that is listed is cellulose, stearic acide, silica and vegetable coating.  I know other potentially more effective forms of arginine have been discussed here (primarily by Rico although I think by others).  I'm wondering what you all might recommend.  Oh, by the way, I'm currently taking 5000 mg/day spread out over four doses (with a 2000 mg dosage before bedtime).

Thanks in advance for any help!

[mark501]

When I purchased a new bottle of L-Arginine today I noticed a change to the label. They are no longer advising to take the capsules with water. The label now reads "with a carbohydrate drink to facilitate absorption". Have any of you guys noticed a similar change with the product that you use?

[Hawk]

Mine does NOT say that.  Strange since mine says take with meal, what difference would the drink make

[myrddin]

What specifically is meant by "carbohydrate drink"?  Like Gatorade, or Red Bull, or what?

[Hawk]

Ooooops!

I made a typo below.  I meant to type that mine does NOT say that.  I will correct it now.

A carb drink would be any sugar drink from juice to soft-drink, and I think the statement is nuts.  If you take it with a meal, and every meal has carbohydrates, it seems totally stupid to designate what you wash the pill down with.  I wonder if that is for arginine loading as some athletes sometimes do by taking 6000 - 9000 mgs on an otherwise empty stomach?

I would dismiss it as being stupid and gimmicky.

[Rico]

Hawk is right that food is the same effect...to facilitate absorption a carbohydrate drink is easier to use and if you are doing it before a workout then you won't have a meal in your stomach.....it is hard to workout hard on a full stomach to tacos:).....but a carbohydrate drink makes sense, plus it keeps your blood sugar at bay and gives you a little energy without once again a heavy stomach of food to absorb....

Arginine is usually only taken at night on a empty stomach right before bed it you are looking to promotes fat burning....

For peyronies any snack will do or drink,like Hawk said some OJ....a carb is a carb....

Rico

[Rico]

Tim,

I will address this to you and anyone else jump in if you choose....  I'm going to my Urologist on Friday morning.... I have my articles on the pentox/viagra/arginine  or the way I look at it pentox and pde5 inhibitor...

Tim if say someone already had good circulation....do you think that taking pentox twice a day at 400mg and cialis 5mg every other day, or to take more of viagra or levitra if you could afford it...... I know it is not a science yet, and I wonder if the amounts of the formula are price driven.... say if you could afford it, would taking 400mg of pentox twice a day with 50mg or viagra or 10mg of levitra or cilias 5mg each day....... what is your opinion of this..... I have read several post on the old forum or other forums where 400 twice a day and the cilias..... arginine would be 500-700 mg three times per day....thanks for your input on the formula and adjustments as you could see them....remember if money is not the issue also...

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico,

When you say arginine is usually taken only at night and on an empty stomach I take it that you are referring to high performance athelets and NOT refering to men with Peyronies Disease.  Or, are you suggesting that men with Peyronies Disease should not take a divided dose with meals?

[Rico]

Hawk,

I'm sorry, I meant arginine is taken at night on a empty stomach to promote fat burning while one sleeps, other wise it can be taken with a meal or taken with some carbs to help facilitate absorption for muscle pump and energy... one has to remember if they take it in a drink for bodybuilders then the label or instructions are geared for a workout..... you can look up arginine and delta sleep, it you have taken arginine at night on a empty stomach it will help burn more fat.... so I meant on a empty stomach then and with carbs other wise....I put that in that post now, thanks for the catch....

Rico

[DannyOcean]

Hey guys.  A couple of questions for y'all on this fine Sunday morning.

1.  First of all, I'm still looking for a good arginine formula.  I know some of you must have some suggestions.  Rico, I think you've posted on this before but wasn't clear what exactly you are using.  In essence, I'm thinking that the L-Arginine pills that I've been popping might not be as effective as some of other stuff for distributing arginine within the body.  I'd love to hear any recommendations for stuff that might work better.

2.  I've noticed lately that my libido has been pretty low.  I do wonder if Peyronies may be a factor here in terms of causation or correlation.  It also seems to me (and no, I don't have any evidence to back this up) that low libido/test levels might be something that people with Peyronies Disease would be wise to take steps to correct.  So I guess it's two questions wrapped into one: (a) Should low libido/test levels be somthing to be concerned about? and (b) Are there some things that I can be doing to improve in this area?  I'm on pentox/arginine/viagra + ACL and multi, eat pretty well, get lots of exercise, etc.

Thanks!

[Rico]

DannyOcean,

If you go to bodybuilder.com you can read on arginine supplements, I take xyience products my self...I believe there are ones out there that are just as good...gnc has some products and a good site also to read on.....NOX by xyience if you don't want the creatine...I do nox-cg3 this does have creatine in it, I get a good pump from it, I cycle on and off, four to six weeks on and then 10 days off....you can do nox with this also, nox has a arginine complex, ornithine is a precursor to arginine and is in it....

Pentox takes a while to work, don't get discourage with this, I think that what your taking is the state of art for blow flow...I have read that pentox can take up to two months to get working right in your body for full effect....

Libido for peyronies is effected by the studies, some 70% of peyronies cases are effected because of the mental aspects of the disease, and of course is relative to your condition, a mild case vs a serve case....plus over all health and how one handles stress....if you don't use it you lose it...taking the Viagra at night, are you having night time erections? this is so important to induce erections and getting the oxygen in your unit, I think kobold said that Dr. Lue said to try to induce a erection at night.....
Horny Goat Weed and other supplements *suppose* to help, but I don't think I would do anything with what you are taking...

I have gain a 1/2 inch  back in size and more girth from the VED, I'm going into the second month now....this crap can make one not feel sexual, somehow you have to find a way to feel sexual..easier said than done for some...I had this problem for sometime also, I started to do a little dating, flirting is healthy, you start to think about sex and this helps:)....you almost have to forget about peyronies and think of the old days, let your mind run free...this works for me....I know my case isn't as bad....<30 and stable....I went to my Urologist on Friday, he said my plaque was the same or a little smaller....my condition seem to stable after six weeks.....erection where week for awhile...I was not thinking of women and not dating either...there has to be a stimulation to get a erection....I wouldn't over think this right now, keep working out, maybe talk to someone, a doctor, relax and let the pentox do it's work, then read on the VED....I didn't start the VED till I was four months into the condition, now I'm getting strong erections again, pumping it up everynight for ten minutes and seeing you hang heavy is a good feel and for me play positive on my mind.....also coming to terms and having a plan helps also, and having sex with a woman and her saying she wouldn't of know if I didn't tell her....but this once again is not everyones condition, I'm lucky and thank God for that..... you seem yours isn't as bad either, and knowing that and also you have a good doctor....

When I went to my Urologist on Friday, well he doesn't know anything about VED or pentox ect.... I told him about my diet, Epsom salts and working to stop inflammation, he thought this was good and said the plaque might of stopped without this, but it is good for over all health....he was against the VED when I saw him, when I called he did write the script for it, when I can in after using it for seven weeks and told him about the gain in 1/2 inch and I brought a copy of the protocol with me, he was interested and ask if he could keep the copy, I also brought him the pentox/Viagra/agrinine  he said pentox couldn't hurt you, he hasn't read much on it though and I gave him some information to read on it, he said he would call me on Wednesday to give me his thoughts on it.....he gave me free samples of Viagra and cialis.....it felt good to hear from him that on a scale of 1-10 he felt I'm a three or mild, he said I would have a good chance if it doesn't change in another six months that it wouldn't progress....

Maybe if you remember that the VED is available after your plaque is stable will give you mind and attitude a adjustment and this hope will give you more of a sexual well being and will help your erections, this help me, for some reason being proactive and believing in the VED and this hope made my mind stronger....

My prayers go out to the peyronies brothers that have the degree of curve that makes sex impossible, you aren't one of them, or the ones that don't have access to medical treatment, you are on the state of the art medicine and at the early stages of your condition, be thankful for that....get out there and flirt...it is healthy......I would download as much information on the VED as you can get, I took the study from Alabama, it looks professional, plus I took Levine Q&A saying he is using it, and his profile from the APDA site, doctors need to hear it from other doctors, not from some peyronies people emailing each other, this is how they think, this changed the mind of my doctor, I know yours is against it, but show this to him and in a couple of months you can be using it also...there is hope for you...

God Bless...

Rico

[DannyOcean]

Rico,

This is one of the most helpful posts I have read here on the forums and I really (really!) appreciate it.  I am going to make a big push for the VED when I see the uro again in a few weeks.  I'm going on around six months and I haven't really noticed much change as of late.  So I'm guessing I've probably stabilized.  

I would love to try the Horny Goat Weed but I'm not sure if I should add it seeing as how I am already on pentox/arginine/viagra.  Definitely something to keep in mind for the future perhaps.  

I am thankful for the fact that I have a mild case and empathize with those who have more serious cases.  I guess a little loss in libido really doesn't compare much to conditions in which people can't have sex at all.  

Anyways, thanks again for this help and encouragement.  I'm going to plan to look into the arginine formulas that you suggested right now!

[Hawk]

Danny,

There would be no point in taking Horny Goat Weed if you are taking a PDE5 inhibitor 25 times stronger (Viagra).  While I believe that taking supplements and using herbs can be very beneficial, you should always have a specific objective for everything you use and never have an approach of "I think I will throw in a little ..."

Even taking the approach of having an objective for every supplement added, and soundly researching that supplement, you still run a degree of risk.  You , me, Doctors, pharmacists, nor research scientists can begin to tell you what far reaching effects various supplements or even foods may have inside of complex individual bodies.

[DannyOcean]

I agree with you Hawk.  No reason to go down that path at this point...

[DannyOcean]

Hey Rico (et al), I had a look around at some of the L-Arginine supplements and have some questions.

1.  I looked at NOX-CG3 from Xyience.  It does appear to have some extras that I don't necessarily need at this point (e.g., creatine).  However I do wonder if any of the extras might actually be beneficial.  For instance, I've taken glutamine in the past as a workout recovery supplement.  Wondering if it be beneficial here?

2.  The amount of arginine in a dose fo NOX-CG3 appears to be 1.5g.  I'm currently taking 5g/daily so in order to achieve that with the NOX-CG3 I'd have to take more than 3 scoops a day.  Not only would that be pretty expensive but I'm not sure it's healthy (for starters, that's a lot of creatine...).  I'm wondering if it would be better to take less arginine in a supplement like this or take more of it via pills like I've been doing.  Hawk, perhaps you can chime in here as it was because of your reco that I bumped up to 5g/daily in the first place.

Thanks guys!

[Liam]

Danny,

Look up Nitrix.  It has 1 gram of l-arg per caplet.  It has l-citrulline and folic acid.  The other stuff in there is nothing scary.  But, check it out yourself.  I was able to stop taking an extra pill (l-citru) by switching to this.

Liam

[Rico]

DannyOcean,

I think what the doctor has one do with the pentox/viagra is to take arginine 500mg three times a day, which I think is plenty with this program.... the one Liam said was good, also you can get l-arginine l-ornithine combo at gnc for 12.99 for 60 caps..... to tell you the truth, with the pentox and viagra the arginine even in a cheap brand or stand alone is going probally to do about the same for your peyronies, the pentox and viagra have the big punch....arginine during the day will help keeping blood flow...if I was you I would google foods high in arginine, you will find nuts which you can snack on during the day also...... I'm cycling off of arginine right now for ten days.... You have to remember to take your pentox three times a day and it takes a little while to kick in....

Stress might be a problem you are having....especially in the early phases of peyronies....circulation problem is the reason they put you on pentox...you might just be getting use to it also, take some hot baths, work out, how is your diet...

DannyOcean I would save my money before I threw it at more supplements, If I was you I would make sure I take my pentox on time, viagra, and arginine 500mg three times a day only.... this is plenty in this combo.... now only take a multi vitamin with this... now break down the stress management/exercise/diet and think about the VED... bring the information to your doctor on it, the 26 week protocol from spivey in Alabama..... read the whole VED thread(twice)....figure out which system you want(multi cylinder I recommend) to buy if your not building one..... during your pumping consume up to a half gallon of distilled water everyday...... people *might* get loped sided with there approach, all pills, or all VED or all supplements........ Once again you have the right medicine and supplement combo....I think now you need to add the VED and focus on a couple of other areas....this is just my opinion... and my last post on Horny Goat Weed, I said I wouldn't do that with what you are taking...you don't need it... you don't get a hard on when you pop a Viagra, you have to be arouse first.......if it isn't a medical reason from say a prostate operation then it is in your head...stress...and I know, peyronies will rock the toughest SOB back on his heels for a while....

Rico

[Rico]

DannnyOcean,

I bought this at GNC today....no creatine....expensive 89.99 less 20% for first week discount gnc my cost 72 dollars for a month supply..... about 4000mg of a arginine complex and a excellent arginase inhibiting complex....deca-arginine which is a advance arginine delivery complex....this is a time release product.... I went through ten products and found this to be just what I was looking for..... if one was on the pentox and viagra, taking two three tablets a day, this would last you two months or one dollar a day..... they have a web site also  www.bio-supplements.com com   you have to make sure to get the biogenetix No-D2T  

Rico

[George999]

Here is another interesting Arginine supplement.  The manufacturer actually stopped production of it, but it was so popular that they plan on having more of it available in a week or so.  Bodybuilding.com carries it: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/sns/arg.html

George

[Rico]

George,

That is a good product and very close to the NO-D2T I bought today....cheaper, but if you look at the 2000mg vs 4000mg which is the case, you are getting the same thing for same price in a different package, this seems to be the new delivery system, you where the one I think that got me interested in the arginase inhibitor....good find George...

Rico

[percival]

George
The supplement you mention is availble here in the UK but I am wary of taking it because of Tim's post on October 1st which suggests that ornithine might be bad for Peyronies Disease:

The induction of arginase, an enzyme that metabolizes L-arginine to urea and L-ornithine, is essential for collagen synthesis (5,6). Indeed, L-ornithine produced by arginase can be further converted to proline, which is a central component of collagen

Arginase metabolizes L-arginine to urea and L-ornithine. L-ornithine can be further converted to proline, which is hydroxylated to form hydroxyproline. Given that the primary structural motif of mature collagen is (Gly-X-Pro/Hyp)n, overproduction of L-ornithine via an upregulated arginase activity would feed pathways favoring collagen synthesis, and thus contribute to the development of fibrosis.

I would prefer to combine just norvaline with arginine if I can find such a blend.
Regards,
Percival

[Rico]

Ornithine helps arginine, which gives you blood flow which shuts down inflammation which in turn makes your body quit making scar tissue.....ornithine has nothing to do with more scar tissue being made, what it is is a precursor to arginine, once again to enhance it's action.....pentox delivers oxygen rich blood to the area you looking to heal, it isn't the pentox, it is the action that it causes, once again the oxygen rich blood flow.....bodybuilders have many injuries, so do other athletes that take these supplements, they don't want more scar tissue on there scar tissue either.....the reason they use them is that there pumps are bigger and more blood flow to help heal torn muscle fibers to heal quicker......

Rico

[Tim468]

Here is the cycle:

Ornithine to (via carbamoyltransferase activity):

Citrulline to (via Argininosuccinate synthetase):

Arginosuccinic Acid to (via fumarate):

Arginine BACK TO (via Arginase):

Ornithine!

That cycle creates urea and also shunts (I think) into collagen and proline production.

So, when one is doing OK, shunting into the cycle is OK, if one is not prone to inflammatory changes that are unregulated. If Arginase is well expressed, then it preferentially does this cycle and creates collagen.

However, if argenase is inhibited (this is where Pentox comes in), then the arginine shunts to NO via NO synthase pathways.

So, IMHO, the key here is the arginase, and the preferential pathway to collagen VERSUS the NO synthase mediated pathway towards NO and anti-inflammatory effects.

As always, I must make the caveat that it is more complicated than this, but I am not yet smart enough to understand it, much less explain it.

Tim

[Rico]

Ginkgo Biloba extract alleviates Fibrosis in Rats....

http://search.medscape.com/uslclient/searchMedline.do;jsessionid=2D980EBABCB26BF3EF67011FCEFB9494?newsearch=1&searchfor=Clinical&cid=med&queryText=16343076&sortField=score&SortOrder=desc&selectedDateRadio=5&medscapeSelect=0&journal=

I have been having such  good results with my ginkgo(blood flow). I have been thinking of going to pentox, but now I found this article, which seems to me that the ginkgo works like pentox.....I think I will stick to what I'm doing and take cilias twice a week at 10mg.....

I'm taking 60mg twice a day....you don't have to take with food....you can take the one a day, it comes in 120mg....most say not to exceed 240mg per day.....one might think about there body weight.... I'm moving to 180mg a day...60mg x 3..... out of all the supplements I have used so far, this I can tell is giving me good blood flow and has research and positive research from sources like Mayo Clinic...

I can tell how popular a supplement is by the one store I use to get my dmso and apple cider and castor oil....they only give a product  several inches of shelf space....Ginkgo ..two full shelves....number seller....the people that you meet in there are educated and have been using supplements for decades, I always in up staying there for a hour, they have a reference library you can use....I should post this on the dmso thread, but I have been using dmso cream  it is 70% pure dmso/30% rose hips and aloe...I smear it on thick, wrap in white cotton gauze for two hours before pumping, I get circulation going after about one hour with it on, like a chubby...plus it feels good....I do the thacker to, but I like this cream and go back and forth....16 dollars for a ounce and that will last two weeks....

God Bless...

Rico

[George999]

Percival, unfortunately, I known of no source for Norvaline a la carte other than in the raw powdered form directly from the major distributors.  As for the E2 Matrix product, I think they are depending on the Norvaline component to block the dark side of Ornithine by inhibiting Arginase.  I really don't know how effective that would be, but I can tell you that having hypertension, I would suspect that I have an major Arginase problem that extends beyond Peyronies.  I have tried all manner of Arginine supplementation to no avail.  I have had the E2 Matrix product on order for over a month now and expect it to arrive within the next few weeks.  I really don't know how it will work, but I will try it and report back.  What I can tell you is that I found Rico's tip about taking Arginine with a carbohydrate food very helpful.  I have tried that (a small bowl of fruit) yesterday with some Arginine HCI and that was the first time that the Arginine really seemed to kick in with a vengeance.  My veins became unusually dilated and I suddenly felt a burst of energy that enabled me to reach and maintain a treadmill pace that was significantly uncomfortable before.   The next step will be the E2 Matrix product, I will keep you informed.

Rico, I am so glad to hear that you are doing so well.  It seems like some of the things you are taking (including the ginkgo) are really working for you.  I am so happy to hear that.  Perhaps you should think about adding a post to the 'improvements' thread and list there the stuff that is delivering for you.  I know that it is easy to chalk up improvement to 'spontaneous remission', but in such cases, there is *something* that has to trigger the remission.  I just know that given the right combination of stimulus, this condition can be defeated.  I have been told, for example, by physicians that it is not uncommon for calcified tendons to 'decalcify' under the right conditions.  If it can happen with tendons, it can happen with Peyronies, there is plenty of reason not to give up on the search.

- George

[Rico]

I just made a correction to the site       yahoo search(go down to six link with medscape)  it should be inhibiting instead inhibitor  

                     
                                  ginkgo growth factor beta-1 inhibiting      
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=+ginkgo+growth+factor+beta-1+inhibiting&ei=UTF-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&fr=moz2