ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[George999]

I am getting queries as to where to obtain the best grade of Vitamin E to deal with Peyronies.  So I am going to attempt some suggestions in the form of links (and please don't take the order of the links as a ranking, I am NOT recommending one of these products above another):

From GNC:
http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2133477&

From Vitamin Shoppe:
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=SO-1759
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=KA-1756

From iHerb.com:
http://www.iherb.com/store/ProductDetails.aspx?c=Herbs&pid=NOW-00811

From Natural Supplement Center:
http://store.nationalsupplementcenter.com/mf20011.html

From Nutrition Surplus:
http://www.nutritionsurplus.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Shopping.ProductDetails/productid/17745.html

All of these SEEM to be good products.  Some of these vendors have retail outlets in addition to their web stores.  This is by no means an exhaustive list.  In the past I have used the NeoMedica product available from Nutrition Surplus.  I am now using the NOW Foods product from iHerb.

- George

[ComeBacKid]

George,

I know you have talked a lot about the full spectrum vitamin E and other supplements, I'm actually a supporter of some supplements and good excercise.  But on the other hand I'm a skeptic, in regards to the vitamin E or full spectrum vitamin E is there even one study showing a positive effect on peyronies patients?  If so could you post it please.  I've looked at the PDI site, and my skepticism kicks in after I learned they have a store and sell different vitamins and products.  I do know one member here from the PDS that claims to know the owner of the PDI site, and claims to be in his book that was recently published, even this fellow didn't seem convinced full spectrum vitamin E will do the trick.  I've talked to countless men who said they took vitamin E and it didn't do a thing, I myself was on it for almost a year, after awhile to much vitamin E is dangerous as it can cause coronary artery disease.  I think it could help bolster PDI's sales and credibility if they sponsored a study by a reputable doctor with their full spectrum vitamin E.  

[George999]

If one accepts the idea that ischemia, that is oxygen starvation, promotes the production of TGF-beta-1, then one would have to conclude that ANY substance, including Pentox, would lower TGF-beta-1 simply by virtue of the fact that it improves circulation and oxygen utilization.  However, I think that what Tim is trying to point out *Tim, please correct me if I am wrong on this* is that Pentox NOT ONLY lowers TGF-beta-1 indirectly via improving circulation, but also lowers TGF-beta-1 DIRECTLY via a different and more effective pathway.  I think this is a really important distinction, since otherwise one could attribute TGF-beta-1 lowering qualities to any number of substances and perhaps in doing so, risk missing out on the very real additional benefits of a drug like Pentox which is not only 'more powerful', but simply more effective through the use of additional pathway(s) to achieve the desired effect.

On the subject of PDE-5 inhibitors (Viagra, etc.), I think it is also worthwhile to point out that serum nitric oxide levels are a whole different animal than the nitric oxide factor involved in erections.  Tim touched on this also, but I think it is important to reiterate. What we need to achieve in order to attack the Peyronies is to increase nitric oxide levels in the blood stream when the penis is in its flaccid state which is when that nitric oxide will hopefully be able to deliver its punch to the capillaries of the compromised tissues themselves.  As Tim pointed out, erections have their own value, but actually cut off the circulation that is therapeutic to the damaged tissues.  This is an area where I suggest that exercise can indeed be helpful increasing nitric oxide levels in the bloodstream over a prolonged period.  And I can only imagine that this effect would be multiplied by the addition of Pentox/Viagra/Arginine.  So while erections are a good thing, what we really need to do is use those substances to increase the delivery of nitric oxide and oxygen to the damaged capillaries that are really only accessible in the flaccid state.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

- George

[George999]

ComeBackid, as far as I know there are no studies to either prove or disprove the effectiveness of Vitamin E when it comes to treating Peyronies.  In my case (as in most cases) the Uro 'prescribed' it.  There are theoretical reasons why Vitamin E SHOULD BE effective, especially in the early stages of Peyronies.  Vitamin E is a very powerful fat soluble anti-oxidant, and anti-oxidants are a key weapon against fibrosis in general.  There are studies out there that indicate this to be true.  As far as natural E as opposed to synthetic E is concerned, there are studies showing that natural E is significantly more effective than synthetic E.  That is exactly why Vitamin E is measured in IU as opposed to mg.  It take more synthetic E in mg to equal the same effective amount when compared to natural E.  It has also been demonstrated through research studies that synthetic E tends to be VERY poorly assimilated.  In fact there is research that indicates that some people taking synthetic E end up with absolutely zero E in their bloodstream.  Natural E has been shown to be far more easily assimilated and more effective.  My argument for broad spectrum E is more subjective.  Before ever reading anything on the subject, I made a change from natural E to natural E plus mixed tocopherols.  I immediately noted an improvement in effectiveness.  After that, I began reading up on it, including the info on the PDI website and moved on to the broad spectrum product which I am not even buying from PDI anymore.  In fact I am using a completely different brand now as I pointed out in my post below.  But I later discovered that one of the early users of the pentox therapy noted in a post on this website that he was also using broad spectrum E.  So, knowing what I know, I can only recommend that if one is going to use Vitamin E at all, they should not be using the cheap synthetic stuff, but rather the best stuff out there and that would be one of the premium "broad spectrum" products.

On the other hand, I can fully understand why you and others might not want to use Vitamin E at all and I have no problem with that.  I don't own any stock in the vitamin E industry and in no way profit from its sales, nor am I in any way connected with the PDI website other than the fact that I have made some purchases from them.  In fact, my most recent purchase from them was a huge bottle of Neprinol which is now collecting dust in my closet because I have come across some interesting research that calls into question the whole enzyme based anti-fibrotic approach to treating fibrosis.  So Vitamin E is in no way sacred to me aside from the fact that I have personally found it more helpful than anything else in treating my condition (and I take a lot of stuff) and thus recommend it to others on that basis and on the points that I presented in the above paragraph.

As for the research questioning the safety of Vitamin E, I have read much of that also and personally find it very flawed.  In the first place there has been absolutely no research comparing the relative effectiveness or relative safety of synthetic E compared to full spectrum natural E.  There is actually some evidence suggesting that synthetic E upsets the balance of E in the body by causing a deficiency of the other tocos.  It is also a known fact proven by research that Vitamin E depletes Vitamin K and will leave one with a pronounced Vitamin K deficiency unless Vitamin K is also supplemented concurrently.  Yet NONE of the Vitamin E studies took this into account.  They instead just blindly supplemented with synthetic E and in light of the above facts, a detrimental effect is not surprising.  In fact, research has shown that Vitamin K deficiency can cause vascular calcification not to mention bleeding disorders, so duh! , the really surprising thing to me is that those studies didn't show Vitamin E to be far more dangerous than they did.  Personally, I think anybody taking high levels of E without integrating K into that equation is asking for trouble.  I take K with the E and have lately been taking 1600 IU of d-alpha-tocopherol a day plus the additional tocos and have yet to have any obvious side effects.  I don't plan on pushing my luck by doing that over an extended period, but with the research knowledge I have accumulated, I am not particularly concerned about it either.  And my observation thus far has been that my Peyronies has responding definitively and positively to that increased dosage.  So I intend to pursue it further and am excited about the potential outcome.

- George

[csup]

George999,
Very interesting post on the vit E. I am currently taking 400IU of natural full spectrum vit E 3 times daily(1200IU total) and did not know about the vit K connection. If I was to take this also, should it be the same qty as the E to offset that. I have not read about this anywhere else. crs

[Rico]

George:

I think you made some good points, I do wonder why Dr. Lue recommends one  to maintain a erection in the evening for 10 minutes, what is the purpose of this?

I talk to my doctor(urologist) today, he read my reports and he and his staff found the information very interesting, he made copies for everyone, this help me in having a discussion with him with a open Mind.....He said, they all know of Dr. Lue and consider him the leader in Erectile Dysfunction....with his endorsement of pentox, he feels it is something to try.....

I order 270 tabs of pentox(trental) and 30 tabs of 20 mg of cilias.....it is waiting at the drug store for me, will pick up on way to work tomorrow.....anyone need some ginkgo:)...... I will stop my supplements other than 400mg of full spectrum E and a multi...... I doing 10mg of cialis every 48 hours, my arginine once aday before my run at lunch no-d2t it is 4000mg time release......

I have a iron gut so I don't see any problem with the pentox and have notice no side effects from the cilais..... I haven't checked how much my insurance is going to pick up on this, should cover most of the trental, it is off label use, Blue Cross Blue Shield in my policy doesn't cover ED....I will see, if one was going to pay out of pocket no insurance it is about 150 dollars a month program...including all three products..... my supplements run that much so it is a wash from a cash flow prespective....

I felt the respect my Urologist has for Lue was a good thing..

Rico

[George999]

The studies:

Effect of vitamin E supplementation on vitamin K status in adults with normal coagulation status.

       * Booth SL,
       * Golly I,
       * Sacheck JM,
       * Roubenoff R,
       * Dallal GE,
       * Hamada K,
       * Blumberg JB.

   Jean Mayer US Department of Agriculture Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging, Tufts University, Boston, MA 02111, USA. sarah.booth@tufts.edu

   BACKGROUND: Cases of enhanced anticoagulant effect in response to high-dose vitamin E supplementation have been reported among patients taking oral anticoagulants. Although a vitamin E-vitamin K interaction was proposed to underlie this effect, it has not been systematically investigated in adults with normal baseline coagulation status. OBJECTIVE: The objective was to study the effect of 12 wk of supplementation with 1000 IU RRR-alpha-tocopherol/d on biochemical measures of vitamin K status in men and women not taking oral anticoagulants. DESIGN: Vitamin K status, which was assessed with the use of plasma phylloquinone concentrations, the degree of under-gamma-carboxylation of prothrombin (proteins induced by vitamin K absence-factor II, PIVKA-II), and the percentage of undercarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC), was determined in 38 men and women with rheumatoid arthritis (study A) and in 32 healthy men (study B) participating in 2 independent, 12-wk randomized clinical trials of vitamin E supplementation (1000 IU/d). RESULTS: Mean (+/- SD) PIVKA-II increased from 1.7 +/- 1.7 to 11.9 +/- 16.1 ng/mL (P < 0.001) in study A and from 1.8 +/- 0.6 to 5.3 +/- 3.9 ng/mL (P < 0.001) in study B in response to 12 wk of vitamin E supplementation. An increase in PIVKA-II is indicative of poor vitamin K status. In contrast, the other measures of vitamin K status (ie, plasma phylloquinone concentration and percentage of ucOC) did not change significantly in response to the supplementation. CONCLUSIONS: High-dose vitamin E supplementation increased PIVKA-II in adults not receiving oral anticoagulant therapy. The clinical significance of these changes warrants further investigation, but high doses of vitamin E may antagonize vitamin K. Whether such an interaction is potentially beneficial or harmful remains to be determined.

   PMID: 15213041 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Extrahepatic tissue concentrations of vitamin K are lower in rats fed a high vitamin E diet*.

       * Tovar A,
       * Ameho CK,
       * Blumberg JB,
       * Peterson JW,
       * Smith D,
       * Booth SL.

   Vitamin K Laboratory, Jean Mayer USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA, 02111, USA. sarah.booth@tufts.edu.

   ABSTRACT: BACKGROUND: An adverse hematological interaction between vitamins E and K has been reported, primarily in patients on anticoagulants. However, little is known regarding circulating levels or tissue concentrations of vitamin K in response to vitamin E supplementation. The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of different levels of dietary alpha-tocopherol on phylloquinone and menaquinone-4 concentrations, while maintaining a constant intake of phylloquinone, in rat tissues. METHODS: Male 4-wk old Fischer 344 rats (n = 33) were fed one of 3 diets for 12 wk: control (n = 13) with 30 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol acetate/kg diet; vitamin E-supplemented (n = 10) with 100 mg all-rac-alpha-tocopherol acetate/kg diet; and vitamin E-restricted (n = 10) with <10 mg total tocopherols/kg diet. All 3 diets contained 470 +/- 80 mug phylloquinone/kg diet. RESULTS: Phylloquinone concentrations were lower (P
   PMID: 16857056 [PubMed - in process]

Full abstract here:

http://www.nutritionandmetabolism.com/content/3/1/29

Note this quote from the above:

High doses of vitamin E administered to vitamin K-deficient animals result in abnormal coagulation as a consequence of under y-carboxylation of prothrombin, whereas there is no effect of vitamin E supplementation in vitamin K-adequate animals

Also:



From: http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=111

An exception to the generally low risk of toxicity associated with vitamin E involves simultaneous vitamin K deficiency. For persons with vitamin K deficiency, high intake of vitamin E can prolong bleeding time and interfere with clotting. In 2000, the National Academy of Sciences set a Tolerable Upper Intake Level (UL) for vitamin E of 1,000mg (or 1,500 IU of vitamin E in the form of alpha-tocopherol). This daily limit applies to supplemental vitamin E only, and is intended to apply to all individuals age 19 and older.

Also note the effect of Vitamin K on calcium metabolism:

Effect of vitamin K2 on experimental calcinosis induced by vitamin D2 in rat soft tissue.

       * Seyama Y,
       * Horiuch M,
       * Hayashi M,
       * Kanke Y.

   Dept. of Clinical Chemistry, Hoshi College of Pharmacy, Tokyo, Japan.

   The effect of vitamin K2 on calcium (Ca) and inorganic phosphorus (P) levels in the aorta and kidney obtained from experimental calcinosis induced by vitamin D2(2.5 x 10(5) I.U./ kg b.w.) of male rats was investigated. A high dose of vitamin K2 (100 mg/kg b.w.) inhibited the increase in the aortic Ca and P or in the renal Ca and P induced by vitamin D2, and a low dose of vitamin K2 (10 mg/kg b.w.) showed the same tendency, but the degree of the efficacy was small. It may be suggested that a high dose of vitamin K2 suppressed experimental calcification of soft tissues induced by vitamin D2. Therefore, a pharmacological dose of vitamin K2 might have a usefulness for the prevention and treatment of arteriosclerosis with calcification.

   PMID: 8698544 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Matrix Gla protein accumulates at the border of regions of calcification and normal tissue in the media of the arterial vessel wall.

       * Spronk HM,
       * Soute BA,
       * Schurgers LJ,
       * Cleutjens JP,
       * Thijssen HH,
       * De Mey JG,
       * Vermeer C.

   Department of Biochemistry, Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands.

   Vitamin K-dependent matrix Gla protein (MGP) has been suggested to play a role in the inhibition of soft-tissue calcification. Here we report the expression of recombinant prokaryotic MGP as part of a fusion protein and the preparation of two antibodies that specifically recognize MGP. Monoclonal antibodies were raised against synthetic peptides homologous to the sequences 3-15 and 63-75 of human MGP. Both antibodies recognize recombinant and synthetic human MGP. Immunohistochemical analysis showed that MGP was associated with the extracellular matrix of noncalcified bone and with chondrocytes in cartilage. In the healthy human arterial vessel wall, MGP antigen was demonstrated in association with smooth muscle cells and elastic laminae of the tunica media and with the extracellular matrix of the adventitia. Colocalization with the elastic laminae was lost at sites of medial calcification; in both human and rat arteries, high amounts of MGP were found in the extracellular matrix at borders of intimal and medial calcification. Our data demonstrate the close association between MGP and calcification. It is suggested that undercarboxylated MGP is biologically inactive and that poor vascular vitamin K status may form a risk factor for vascular calcification.

   PMID: 11716499 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/feb00-report.html

The preferred form of Vitamin K is Vitamin K2, but Vitamin K1 is also OK.  Vitamin K3 is toxic.  People who take Coumadin or who are on dialysis should not take Vitamin K supplements.

- George

PS - I tried to post more references to actual studies, but the urls apparently contained character strings that caused me to get a reject message when I attempted to include them in the post.  I have since included the abstracts themselves in quotes.

[George999]

Rico, I think that there is a general, though perhaps not universal, perception in the medical community that regular erections are beneficial to penile health.  There has to be some reason that healthy males have regular nocturnal erections.  But I would suggest that this benefit is separate and distinct from the vascular heath benefits provided by Pentox, Viagra and Arginine, which is what is really impacting the Peyronies.

- George

[Hawk]

George,

I largely share your view but it leaves many unanswered questions.  This discussion was my point for singling out those large number of Peyronies Disease patients that do get substantial, regular daytime and night time erections.  I wanted to discuss that; with them, more frequent, erections, erections of longer duration, or more firm erections were not desired.  For them, the pentox/arginine/viagra (p/a/v) was to impact the Peyronies Disease through channels quite separate from oxygen that results from erections if it were to have ANY effect.  In fact we know that an erection for more than the optimal time, actually begins to deplete the tissue of oxygen probably as soon as one hour (my guess).

So the P/A/V would either work through a path unrelated to increased blood flow as expressed in erections or it would be of no use to this group.

I am still not sold on this because i do think there is ample evidence that a lack of erections can result in fibrosis.  This in fact could be the common increased risk factor with all of the classic groups (diabetics, prostatectomy, over 50)

On the other hand, I also see evidence that an abundance of erections will not prevent fibrosis.

While It may be posted somewhere in the heap (at least in pieces), I would like to see this cooked down to the specific role erections play in penile health and the limitations of that role.  As I mentioned, it needs to cover the role of p/a/v independent of erections and the role of erections.

Surely part of the answer lies here: https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,130.0.html

I think we all have uneducated ideas, pet theories, and little analogies that may or may not apply, but I suspect that information is not yet full understood by any group.  If it is an unknown, we probably won't be the ones to discover it.  Arguments of unproved theories help little IF THIS IS THE CASE.  

This disease and much about the the basic physiology of the penis seems to remain a mystery.  The fact that many men have physiological reasons they can get nocturnal erections but not daytime erections even with Viagra seems still to be unsolved.  In fact it has only until recently, these cases were assumed to have a psychological basis.

This post should probably go under "Causes of Peyronies Disease"

[George999]

I am still not sold on this because i do think there is ample evidence that a lack of erections can result in fibrosis.

One has to be careful here.  Another possibility is that there is something going on in the vascular realm that is the ultimate cause of BOTH lack of erections AND fibrosis.  So while we agree that erections are a healthy AND very normal phenomenon, I would say that what is most important (and I think we agree on this as well), whether one is able to have normal erections or not, is to work on the vascular side with the PAV combination.   I would personally run by my doctor the possibility of adding to that Vitamins C, E, and K, concurrent aerobic exercise routine, and possibly something like Flavay, the quintessential OPC/pygnogenal combination, and the only such product with years of research behind it and some pretty remarkable capabilities, and my reasoning for that is that once you get oxygen and nitrogen going in a big way, you also want to be looking at quenching resulting increases in destructive free radicals and this is pretty much the formula for doing that.

- George

[Hawk]

One has to be careful here.  Another possibility is that there is something going on in the vascular realm that is the ultimate cause of BOTH lack of erections AND fibrosis.

George,

I think we are still guessing because, with prostatectomy patients the nerve bundle that triggers the dilation of main penile arteries is impacted.  Nerves dealing with sensation are untouched.  There is no evidence that any other vascular issues are impacted.  

But then again, it could be trauma from catheterization

Ah, but we are still guessing

[Fighter]

George:

I order 270 tabs of pentox(trental) and 30 tabs of 20 mg of cilias.....it is waiting at the drug store for me, will pick up on way to work tomorrow.....anyone need some ginkgo:)...... I will stop my supplements other than 400mg of full spectrum E and a multi...... I doing 10mg of cialis every 48 hours, my arginine once aday before my run at lunch no-d2t it is 4000mg time release......

Rico??
Are you giving up on the ginkgo? I thought this was working for you?

[Rico]

fighter,

I like the ginkgo and it has worked for me for blood flow and better circulation... I really like it... if I start the pentox, I don't want to do ginkgo with it and have read not to mix the two....

I have talk to some people tonight about mixing the VED with pentox and it being a blood thinner... I have to admit this now has given me some concern...

I will sleep on it tonight, I might just take the cialis and arginine and ginkgo and finish my VED.... I like the VED... I haven't read anything about doing pentox with the VED, one person told me it gave him red dots on his unit and another veteran of ved told me maybe I should just do the VED and finish with it....

I can't say anything but positive things about the ginkgo...I have been holding a steady course for the last several months and feel I have had positive results....to tell you the truth I'm taking two of the three right now and have seen studies on ginkgo and pentox being compared, but I don't know it it would make much of a difference, but I do know the top peyronies doctors are prescribing it....I get scared because I'm in the six month stage of peyronies and want to take advantage of everything I can and not leave anything on the table....I would only change one thing, replace my ginkgo with pentox...and once again this is just because it is what Lue and Levine are prescribing....I don't like drugs and it is a hard choice for me to make....

I haven't talked to anyone that has gotten better from pentox myself...I do know after taking ginkgo for several weeks I could feel more warmth in my hands and feet, better blow flow....Once again I like ginkgo, one article said a man went into a coma taking pentox and ginkgo, it was the only article I read to say not to mix the two once again.... to tell you the truth I think I have been reading too much on peyronies...six months for hours everyday....one can talk hisself into things, sometimes your gut or street sense is the best bet......

Right now I believe in everything I'm doing, ved, diet, exercise, agrinine, and a pde5 inhibitor.... I take opc'c and a full spectrum E... opc's are great.....  I will stay this course.... trade of pentox for ginkgo?  I don't know, maybe I will just pick up the cilias tomorrow... I have to sleep on it....  I know if I wasn't pumping and didn't believe so much in the VED then I would switch pentox for ginkgo for the fact once again there is more research I can follow on it with peyronies...... I have concerns now with the pressure from the VED and thinning my blood too much.... pentox is a engineer drug that reshapes your blood cells....state of the art blood thinner...

Anyone with any thoughts on this combo ved/pentox  please speak up...

Rico

[Fighter]

Rico,
I think you say it right here... "I think I have been reading too much on peyronies...six months for hours everyday....one can talk hisself into things, sometimes your gut or street sense is the best bet"

Sometimes we tend to change treatments too fast because we read something and the next thing you are ordering it. I have done this myself and I am sure that most of us have also. As a matter of fact I promised myself that I would not do that anymore. But you know what? It is hard to ignore the different things that you read and you just think that maybe just maybe that is the answer so you make a change. My Peyronies Disease has been in check for about 6 months and I just ordered Ginkgo because I have been reading a lot of good things about it. I have also noticed that someone will post good results on the forum about a certain drug or supplement and then a week later he is trying something different? I guess we just want this all to be over with and we are willing to do just about anything? Keep on fighting...

[Rico]

fighter,

You will be happy with ginkgo....I have stay the course with my decisions so far.....drug interaction, ginkgo and pentox.... they are tested against each other also, more for someone that wants to go a more natural route, ginkgo has actually out performed pentox in some areas.....

Personally I don't know if changing this one thing in my program will do anything.... I'm just piggy backing on some of my brothers who are going to more pro active peyronies doctors........I think this is a big problem with peyronies, urologist don't have a clue what is going on....My urologist yesterday kept me on the phone, I told him I knew he was busy, he said oh I'm not charging you for this and can I ask you a couple more questions....he has been the head doctor at a top firm for 15 years in a large city.... potaba and topical verapamil is the clinics choice or operation..... he says injections hurt and are hard to do..... this is a problem also they will have to over come with aa4500... administration of the drug....although if it works, people will find a way to get to someone who can stick you....

My real problem for me is buckling, at the hour glass site, it buckles forward, or hinges.....will these drugs help with this???  I think the VED can help, we will see.....I'm single but did have some sex the other night and it was a little awkward, but I think the gal just thinks your a little soft, you have to hold it by the hinge, when very hard erection with the cilias then it seems much better, firm, a towel holder:).... in the report by lue also there was no improvement in the hour glass with the pentox study, bend yes and dorsal plaque good, side plaque same.....I thought this is positive.... it would of been hard for me to imagine a strong erection at the base for a inch up and another four inch strong and in between for  a inch narrow and hinge forward.....stronger erection, less hinge....too me one seems to me more apt to injury his self during sex also, I found this out....the buckling makes your unit dig once in a while, I was nervous that I might of injury myself, after she left I didn't have pain but took precaution and ice my unit and apply some dmso to prevent blood pooling and took some naid......my thoughts are during rehab with the VED.... taking  the pentox/pde5 inhibitor of choice and arginine one might curtail any other scarring if you re-injured oneself, since this is what they feel this combo does....

fighter you feel your injury is in control, you will like the ginkgo, better circulation, it takes a while to start working, take 60mg twice a day......it is one of the few supplements doctors know about....all good.... just don't take with Pentox:).... I will go back to ginkgo when off of pentox....just for over all health....

Rico

[George999]

I really think the problem here is that Pentox and Ginkgo have some similarity in that way that they work and if you take the two together it can result in a dangerous "overdose", if you will, in terms of a certain aspect of the treatment.  These are just the kind of things that people die from.  The warnings are not to mix the two.  It is not that either one of them are bad.  It is the mixing of the two that are the problem.  Ginkgo is a supplement with pharmaceutical qualities and Pentox is a drug.  Of the two, Pentox is stronger, more predictable, more targeted, etc.  If one wants a Ginkgo 'effect' at its highest effectiveness, one should be looking at moving off of Ginkgo and onto Pentox.  Hope that makes this discussion more clear.

- George

[Rico]

Just got back from Walgreen's   $277.34

My Insurance would only give one month or 100 tablets of pentox at a time...My cost 10 dollars.... they don't cover cilias 20 tablets of 20mg where 261.89 dollars.... pill cutter 4.99  

The pentox wasn't trental, it said replaced with ER tablets my quest generic pentoxifylline, it did say pentoxifylline on bottle, smaller white, easy to take 400 mg....just took one...

the cilias is 3.27 a day taking 10mg every 48 hrs and 30 cents a day for the pentox.... the expensive arginine I'm taking is 2.25 a day(this will change now).... I don't feel I need much more that a bulk arginine taken with pomegranate, so the replacement will off set the cost of cilias, ginkgo is cheap, but since I have insurance, I can't beat the price on pentox at 10 dollars for 100 tablets....

Now once was breaks the cilias down to 5mg every 48 hours then you are cutting cost again in half.....I know the dose is cut by misterb in the second month....he states his program from Dr Levine when he rang the bell for the brothers on the forum....I thank you again for this is the information that formulated my prescriptson....

Now if one wants to go on line and order and go generic like ComeBackid, then there can be more saving..... IN the second month one should be at a couple of dollars a day.....I know also pentoxifylline in generic is pretty cheap, so no insurance you would have to add in this less 10 dollars...

George you are right as in explaining the pentox and ginkgo....they warn about using with other blood thinners also, I think this is common sense..... too much over lapping..... I do know or should say have been told that pentox has a Special Secert Ingredient In It....no one knows what it is, and it has nothing to do with the velocity of blood cause by the changing of the cells which in turn creates better circulation and bring oxygen rich blood to the small vessels such in the tunica and surrounding plaque...It's Magic:)!!!!!!!!!

Rico

[csup]

Hi all,  
I'm trying to put together some supporting info on the p/a/v "cocktail" for my Uro, and apart from a little bit in Dr. Levine's q&a site, and a report by Dr. Kendirci to the 2005 AUA from the SMSNA site, don't have any hard data on dosages being used. Could not find anything from Dr. Lue on this. Can anyone steer me in the right direction? Thanks. crs

[Rico]

csup,

misterb put his program down, which you can read down a few post...... if you are taking viagra   400mg pentox x 3 per day  arginine 500mg x two or three  and 25mg of vaigra taken at night....

I'm taking the cilias 10mg every 48 hrs and the rest is the same..... now misterb reduce his cilias to 10mg every three days after a month and then to a lower does, I think twice a week, you can check his post....if you go to his name on member list you hit last post of his and can read them all....

I bought 20mg cialis and a pill cutter.... the reports you are brining are good, this is what change my doctors mind, and maybe my own also....let you know in three months:)...

Rico

[JW]

There is a very nice review of the recent non-invasive medical literature in a recent issues of European Urology:

1. A Critical Analysis of Nonsurgical Treatment of Peyronie's Disease
European Urology, Volume 49, Issue 6, June 2006, Pages 987-997
Ekkehard W. Hauck, Thorsten Diemer, Hans U. Schmelz and Wolfgang Weidner

Among the findings they summarize (largely from double-blind placebo controlled randomized studies):
Potaba helps in keeping things from getting worse.  Acetyl-L-carnitine helps, but only some.  Tamoxifen and Colchicine don't help.  Topical verapamil does not penetrate the skin.  Iontophoresis seems like it sometimes works.

Personally, if you try potaba, make sure to go with the powder, not the pills.  The pills made me nauseas 100% of the time, whereas the dissolved powder just tastes bad.  

It may be useful to post this to the articles/resources portion of the forum, but I am not sure of copywrite issues.

[percival]

JW
Thanks for this - it seems a good review
Percival

[csup]

I went to see my GP for non Peyronies Disease issues today and we ended up discussing my condition. I got him to write me scripts for Pentox 400mg x 3/day, and Viagra @ 100 mg. I know about Dr. Lue's protocol on the pentox and arginine, but I am not sure about daily dosage on the viagra. My doc and I talked about cutting the pills into 1/4's, but then I saw that Rico is only taking 10 mg of cialis every other day. Does anyone have input on the dosage for the sildenafil portion of this trio. Thanks.  crs

[Rico]

csup,

10 mg of cialis is like 50 mg of viagra....cialis  is more time release so that is why one takes only every 48 hrs..... so if you take 25mg of viagra a night then you will be following the protocol......

Rico

[Hawk]

Keep in mind the following.  The maximum dose for :

Viagra is 100mg
Cialis is 20 mg
Levitra is 20 mg


in other words 10 mg of Levitra or Cialis is the equivalent of 50 mg of Viagra or 1/2 of a maximum tablet of either drug.  Cialis has a much longer half-life and stays in your system longer.

PS: Rico must have posted when I was typing this but it may add something.

[Rico]

Dear Forum members and guest:

I just posted that my stomach was upset from pentox....it wasn't in the morning or night, just when I took it in the afternoon....I thought maybe the morning and afternoon dose now mixed was too much......I just tried my arginine by itself, now I had switched brands for xyience to No-D2t by biogenetix, it is time release, now reading the label it says, take six tablets(horse pills) 4000mg two hours before workout....xyience was half hour before and you mix it with water and drank it, I was working out to early and throwing these horse pills down on a empty stomach....I have to adjust this....so it wasn't the pentox I now believe it was the arginine(new brand) that I'm taking and not taking it properly.....

Rico

[George999]

Of all of these meds, supps, etc. I have found Arginine to be just about the most cantakerous to deal with.  Its one of those things, that when it works, its like magic, and when it doesn't, its a pain (*literally*).

George

[csup]

Thanks to Rico and Hawk for the heads up on the sildenafil dosage comparisons. Picked up the viagra tonight. Used a very fine tooth saw and miter box for model building to cut these into 1/4's. What a pain in the fingers (and elsewhere). If they work though, it is all worth it.

Rico, I also found some time release arginine thru Life Fitness. They are 1000mg capsules that are supposed to last 12 hours. My local CVS pharmacy (Michigan chain) has them for $35.00 for a bottle of 120. (They are running a sale where you get the 2nd bottle at 50% off now thru 11-25-06). I'm sure you could find these online.

I will have to wait about a week to start the whole protocol, as I had to mail away for the pentox in order to get a price break. I am very fortunate to have good ins. Still undecided about addind VED to the regimen. That is not covered under ins. until I meet a healhy deductable amount. Best wishes to all. crs

[George999]

To Hawk's list, I would add that Horny Goat Weed standardized for 10% Icariin is effective at about a 100:1 ratio to Viagra.  In other words, it would take 10g of Horny Goat Weed to produce the same effect as 100mg (max dose) of Viagra.  And there are in fact 1g HGW tablets on the market now.  At this point I am taking between 1.5g and 3g a day, I plan on boosting that to 2g to 4g per day soon.

- George

[percival]

George
Your comparison between Viagra and Horny Goat Weed is interesting. I have tried the latter and found it as much use as a chocolate fireguard. The dose stated on the label is:
"Epimedium brevicornum extract - equivalent to whole herb 1000 mg"
The recommended dose of this is 1 - 4 tablets. Even the max dose does nothing, whereas 100 mg Viagra does the trick. Maybe I need to try a different brand of HGW.
Percival

[Hawk]

I take 500 mg of HGW 2X per day.  It also contains 300 mg MacaPure (trademark maca)  It does nothing for me that I can tell.  

I also think I got no effect from "korean white gensing"  I may try the red just for comparison.

[scott]

Rico (and everyone else),

Pentox needs to be taken with food.  Rico, if you took your afternoon dose on an empty stomach, it very well could have been the pentox that upset your stomach.

My pharmacy puts a label on the bottle indicating just that fact....

[George999]

The main issue with Horny Goat Weed is that it needs to be "std 10% icariin" and should state so on the label.  Icariin is the active ingredient, the effectiveness of icariin having been demonstrated to be 10:1 to Viagra.  So,

Percival, if you are taking 4 tabs, assuming they are indeed 10% Icariin, you should be getting the equivalent of 40mg of Viagra which is actually less than half of the effectiveness of the 100mg of Viagra.  So it might well be that the HGW is just not doing it for you or, on the other hand, it may have something to do with the dosage.  Personally, I think that if one is not getting the needed effect from HGW, they should be moving up to the prescription solution whether that be Viagra or Ciallis if at all possible, so I think you are on the right track.

Hawk, you are at 1g of HGW which would equal 10mg of Viagra, less than half the minimum dose.  I really don't think that would have any real effect.

ANOTHER IMPORTANT ISSUE WITH SUPPLEMENTS!  ALWAYS check the "Serving Size" first.  I actually have a HGW product that states its potency to be 500mg.  However, it states the "Serving Size" to be 2 capsules.  You then discover that the 500mg is the amount per serving.  Thus you think you are getting 500mg and you are actually only getting 250mg.  This is true with ALL supplements.  Be VERY CAREFUL and check the label!

- George

[George999]

While we are on the subject of things to watch out for in supplements, I would also mention Ginkgo.  Ginkgo leaves (from which the ginkgo supplement is extracted) sometimes contain ginkgolic acid.  Ginkgolic acid is toxic and dangerous.  The more reputable Ginkgo manufacturers TEST the leaves for ginkolic acid before using them to make the extract or powder.  Those leaves that don't meet the requirements are shunted to the secondary market where they are often purchased by 'less fussy' vendors who proceed to use them in their products.  In Europe, particularly in Germany, Ginkgo is strictly regulated in terms of allowable ginkolic acid.  This is not so in the US.  So when you buy Ginkgo, CHECK THE LABEL FIRST.  It should say something like "contains less than 5ppm ginkolic acid".  If it doesn't disclose the ginkolic acid content, beware!  So far I have discovered two widely available brands that do disclose ginkolic acid content to be at a safe level.  They are Life Extension and Nature's Herbs.  Others are perhaps Syntrax Radox, and perhaps a few other lesser known brands.  Shockingly, many major brands do not disclose this important safety information.  We should support the vendors that do.

- George

[DannyOcean]

I'm in the middle of reading The Hardness Factor by Steven Lamm and thus far it's very good.  One of his initial recommendations is to take Pycnogenol along with L-Arginine.  I did a search on "Pycnogenol" hear on the forums and the results were very encouraging so I think I'm going to give this a shot.  I was looking into Prelox which was one of his suggestions but I can't seem to find any info about the amount of L-Arginine vs. Pycnogenol in the product.  I hate when companies do this...  

So I'm thinking of just rolling my own.  Is there a recommended dosage for Pycnogenol?  Any other thoughts regarding this?

[Rico]

DannyOcean one can buy pycnogenol in the forum of maritime pine bark or a combination of grape seed and red wine extrac, OPC.... I have read the studies on grape seed and fine this to be as good as pine bark and cheaper, billberry is good also, If you google OPC you will find different products on the net that are good and take there recommend dose, I have posted on this before and the book on Hardness factor, which is related to heart health....I do know also he is connected with a company that sells OPC... they also promote his book....I believe in OPC's, great for circulation.... I have seen it change people's life... OPC is in essence pycnogenol, I think there is a trademark thing with the name and is used with the pine bark.....to tell you the truth, I was on OPC and gingko and felt great, been on the pentox for two weeks almost, went off the other supplements, and have felt like crap, but maybe I need to get use to it....I believe everyone should take opc's(pycnogenol), it was in Newsweek on Nov. 6th....when get off this pentox, I will go right back on them...

Rico

[hopeful]

Rico... This is Hopeful.. can you check out Encore Tabs and let me know what you think- they are saying that it is all natural and safer than Cialis and Viagra- I am hoping there is nothing in itthat will impact my arrythmia-- please let me know.. you can do a google for their web site

Hopeful

[

[Rico]

Hopeful,

I looked at the product, I don't think I would buy this, there are many supplements like this on the market, you are buying small amounts of things like maca and horny goat weed, this one has 22 ingredients.... once again small amounts of a bunch of different herbs....most of the companies put a lot of the money into marketing, advertising and the packaging the product.... DannyOcean talks about the book Hardness Factor, if you read this it will talk about heart health, which is the pump that gives one good circulation...this over all health concept they believe has to do with ED.....

I take the pentox and cialis because I was told by people on the forum and by researching that the chemicals in these drugs curtail scar tissue, it is not JUST the blood flood, although in a way I believe they could be connected...Lue's report says they don't understand it completely....

If I had ED and couldn't use Viagra or Cialis, then I would take arginine and ginkgo and maybe something like horny goat weed....

I have a hard time with mixing so many herbs together and finding this synergy for ED...ED can also be a mental state, so taking something that says is going to give you a rod of steel can play a factor for some, in a positive way.....

hopeful if I had a medical condition like arrythmia I would talk to my doctor about herbs also.

I have to say that taking something like Horny Goat Weed ect...you have to take much more than I would want to to be the same as say Viagra, like George says, it is hard to match a engineer drug... and then when you start to try to match there potency, I think you playing with fire....

hopeful you should look into pycnogenol.... I would look up OPC....great for circulation, blood flow, and over all health....also ginkgo and red ginseng...before I started the pentox/cialis I was having good luck with this combo.... I started the pentox because like the comerical says....I don't know what that means, But I Want It!!...... I don't know how you are working out also with arrythmia, but a good walk also.... God Bless

Rico

[Hawk]

Hopeful ,The only thing  I would add to what Rico said is to be very careful with Horny Goat Weed (HGW) since it does precisely what Viagra does, only weaker  If I could not take Viagra for health reasons, I would avoid HGW.

Rico and either Danny or George brought up an issue that I share as a pet peeve.  It in proprietary nutritional formulas.  This is when a company puts together a cocktail of several ingredients and at least imply it is targeted it at some condition.  While they may have included all the right ingredients by name, they say nothing of the quantities involved.  They hold that as a proprietary formula marketed under their slick promotional ads.  Business being what it is, one could contend that this is to protect the "secret formula they put so much research into".  Since they seldom have any decent clinical studies that support the claims positive claims for their product, I take a more skeptic view:

Business being what it is, I take the view that they may have the right ingredients but one has no way to guess if they skimp on the more expensive ingredients and load up on the cheap ones.  Since you you end up taking several items in one pill with no amounts specified for the individual components, it is impossible to research and build a program around these proprietary cocktail supplements by adding more of a specific item.  I boycott such products and believe that there should be full disclosure of the item and the quantity on nutritional products just as there is on a multi-vitamin.  Excluding multi-vitamins, when you do find combination tablets or capsules that list quantities, you often find you can buy individual tablets to make the same combination at a far cheaper price.  This is another reason I think manufactures of proprietary formulas hide their quantities for the consuming public.  I resent this attempt to play on the consumers ignorance and to keep them ignorant of what is going in their bodies.  How much further could a "nutritional supplement company" get from the concept of nutrition and holistic health?

The whole time they are doing this they rant about the pharmaceutical companies as a smoke screen to distract from their own practices that are just as bad.

[George999]

Hopeful, I have to say that I agree completely with Hawk and Rico on this.  In addition, I would add that many if not most of these ED products contain things like Yohimbe (which is actually an analog of a prescription drug made from the same substance, Yohimbine).  Yohimbe and a number of other supplements can actually damage your heart.  They can seriously affect things like heart rate and blood pressure and cause you all kinds of problems.  There ARE supplements that can be helpful to your heart and in no way pose you a danger.  I would recommend to you, for example, Coenzyme Q10, without hesitation.  It has no known level of toxicity, can be used safely up to 300mg per day, research has demonstrated cases where it has cured heart failure, it is a very well known substance manufactured by Japanese pharmaceutical companies and sold in the US as a supplement.  It is very expensive but it is a proven supplement, unlike things like Encore, and if I were you, I would be much more concerned about your cardiac issues than your ED.  Also,  because of your condition, you should discuss ANY supplement you take with your doctor.  If your doctor is uncooperative in terms of supplements, you should look around for an MD who is comfortable working with people who take supplements.  There is stuff being purveyed out there on the net and in the health food stores that can really be bad for you.  And there is little regulation over what goes into these things.  I had really severe PVCs (palpitations) a year ago, my doctor literally gave me few options other than surgery (ablation), I ended up taking aloe vera for 18mo.  Now I am off the aloe for a month, and I now have no more palpitations.  There is stuff out there that can probably help you.  Like Rico, I also recommend things like OPCs, pycnogenol, and such.  But this is all off topic (and Hawk, feel free to move this post to the appropriate off topic spot after hopeful reads it), if you want more thoughts on the heart issue, feel free to PM me.

-George

[hopeful]

Thanks Rico _ I will check this out- as for working out- have good days and bad days= depends- never know when it is going to act up- as for a good Doc- none of them know nutrion or herbs..

Hopeful

DannyOcean talks about the book Hardness Factor, if you read this it will talk about heart health, which is the pump that gives one good circulation...this over all health concept they believe has to do with ED.....

[George999]

As y'all know, I am a great fan of Vitamin E.  Some weeks ago, I experimented with boosting my daily Vitamin E intake to 1600IU for a full week.  I noted a distinct positive effect and no negative reactions.  So at this point I am going to try to push it out to a month or beyond and see where it gets me.  I will let y'all know how things turn out.  Normally the upper limit on Vitamin E intake is around 1,000IU, but combining it with Vitamin K negates the blood clotting and vascular calcification issues.  The next barrier is up around 2,500IU where other toxic effects begin to happen and I will be comfortably below that benchmark.

The other thing I am really finding fascinating is Hans Nieper's fixation on orotic acid.  Seems that this substance, when combined with various minerals, produces some pretty astounding effects (according to Nieper who is to minerals what Linus Pauling was to vitamins).  While he has long been considered a crackpot, there seems to be increasing evidence that magnesium orotate has remarkable ability to increase the elasticity of human capillaries and a growing suspicion that other of his discoveries have some pretty remarkable effects.  Now isn't that a cool innovation?  It sounds really relevant to me and I am doing some further investigation.  Bodybuilding.com actually carries such a product, a combination of magnesium orotate, arginine orotate and potassium orotate.  So I am very tempted.  Perhaps my next project.

All this not to mention Ginkgo.  Rico has me really interested in it.  Seems like it has lots of the capabilities of Pentox without the TGF-beta-1 blocking effect.  Still sounds useful.  I was taking a prescription CCB which conflicted, but I'm no longer on that, so that clears the way to start taking some Ginkgo.  And, of course, I will be careful to select a brand that is clear of ginkolic acid.

- George

[Old Man]

George:

Interesting that you have tried increasing your E intage to 1600 I.U.s per day with positive results. That is the amount that I took when first starting my VED therapy. After a month, reduced it to 1200 per day. Then after another month reduced it to 800 until I finished my 6 months VED therapy sessions. I now take 400 perday at evening meals for best results according to my uro. Since I was using the old Osbon Esteem manual model, I had to develop my own set of exercises. My uro at the time and I worked out a regimen that is quite different from the Soma schedule.

Anyway, I firmly believe the high dosages of E along with the VED was the main reason for getting rid of my moderately severe curve of 45 degrees to the right and 45 downward.

Old Man

[DannyOcean]

Still trying to dial in proper supplementation and have some more questions.  As background I'm currently on the following:

L-Arginine (3g-5g/day), Acetyl-L-Carnitine (2.6 g/day), Pentox (400mg 3x/day), Viagra (25 mg @ night), Centrex Multi-vitamin (1x/day)

I'm contemplating starting Pycnogenol.  It's expensive stuff but I'm going to look online to see what I can find.

I also bought a bottle of Horny Goat Weed today.  I'm a bit confused about the talk of it being identical to Viagra in function.  From my reading it seemed like Horny Goat Weed was more of a libido enhancer whereas Viagra doesn't seem to have anything to do with libido but rather produces erections.  So I'm trying to get a sense of whether HGW is OK to take while I'm on Viagra.  

Finally I'm contemplating adding some Omega-3 pills to the mix.  I already try to do healthy oils (flax, olive oil) so I'm not sure if this is something I need to do but my recent reading talking about Omega-3s being good to improve vascular health and I don't think there's a problem with adding them.

I feel like I'm getting on supplement overload a bit...not that my body is reacting adversely but remembering to take all this stuff + the hit to my wallet is starting to take its toll.  I know I'm doing the right stuff here but when you don't see the results (or even hear of positive results from others) it starts to get a bit discouraging.

[George999]

Danny, what you are already taking sounds like a great combination.  I think that one thing to remember is that you are already taking the most important things that can help your Peyronies.  Effectively treating Peyronies is a LONG process and it is important to be patient and allow the Pentox/Viagra/Arginine combination plenty of time to work.  Aside from that:

Pycnogenol is definately great stuff and, yes, it is also expensive.  I am taking Flavay right now, the most expensive one of all, the original French made pycnogenol/OPC product.  This is basically a stellar antioxidant and shouldn't conflict with what you are already taking, but ALWAYS discuss these things with your doctor before you start taking them.

Horny Goat Weed is marketed as a libido enhancer.  I use HGW, lots of it, and perhaps it is a libido enhancer, but if it is, I haven't noticed it.  A lot of what you read about supplements is pure marketing BS.  What is known about HGW via research is that it contains Icariin and Icariin is a PROVEN PDE-5 inhibitor (just like Viagra).  I think that anyone who takes HGW along with Viagra is asking for problems.  I would strongly advise you to skip the HGW.  If you are looking for a libido enhancer, I would recommend Maca.  I take lots of Maca (tablet or capsule form) and find it to be a much more effective libido enhancer than HGW AND it is very unlikely that it would conflict with your current medication.

Fish (omega-3) Oil.  Fish Oil is extremely healthy and is an effective anti-inflammatory.  I would highly recommend it and I can't see where it would conflict with your current meds.  Make sure it is certified free of heavy metals and that it is NOT cod liver oil.  Some people don't know the difference.

Once again.  You are ALREADY taking the most important meds for your Peyronies.  You will not see fast results.  Only the scam artists promise fast results.  BE PATIENT and you will eventually see results.  If you cannot afford to add more stuff to the mix, thats OK, don't allow yourself to be frustrated by thinking you are missing out on the one supplement that can produce a sudden cure because nothing like that exists.  Just do what you can afford to do and be patient.

Also, go to this site and you will find a great place to check for potential interactions between drugs and supplements along with a lot of good information about both:

http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/Home

Wishing you the best,

George

[ComeBacKid]

Was there someone on here who sadi it was counter productive or even bad to take l arginine with a vitamin containing manganese?  I just noticed my multi vitamin contains this and remember someway saying something to this effect, I believe it was George.

ComeBackid

[DannyOcean]

Hey George.  This was a great and helpful reply.  People like you are what makes this community so special.  

I am going to hold off on doing anymore HGW for now.  Part of me is a little concerned about being on viagra long-term (both in terms of health and the cost) and I'm going to bring that up with the doc next time I see him (which is turning out to be a crazy complicated process by the way...I now have to go back to my GP to get another referral to the same uro I've already seen once...grrr...).  The recommendation about maca is a great one.  I'm going to look into that.

I did order some Pycnogenol as well as a supplements that combines ALC and Alpha-Lipoic Acid.  I'm also going to look into adding fish oil in there as well.

Part of me is a bit concerned about using too many supplements but I live a pretty healthy lifestyle overall (good diet, lots of exercise, etc.) so I'm going to go with this until I start noticing any negative side effects.

Danny, what you are already taking sounds like a great combination.  

[wiseguy]

Hello... I got a question for all guys that take trental/pentox.
Have you experienced any (don't know what it's call in English but) small red veins appearing on the skin. Or perhaps making already veiny areas worse???

Thanks in advance

[ComeBacKid]

I experienced those while on pentox, but I was also pumping using the VED soma correct.  I quit taking the pentox and the dots went away.  The pentox essentially thins the blood and then when you pump it draws the blood through and breaks small vessels.  If you experienced the small red dots without pumping and just being on the pentox I don't know what to tell you.

ComeBackid

[myrddin]

Hello... I got a question for all guys that take trental/pentox.
Have you experienced any (don't know what it's call in English but) small red veins appearing on the skin. Or perhaps making already veiny areas worse???

I've been on Pentox now for 8 weeks, and have not noticed any of these or any other side-effects.  I've even taken it on empty stomach without any problems, though I try not to, since that's not recommended.

The only side-effect I've noticed has been occasionally a slight throbbing or pulsating sensation in the groin now and then.  Not often.

And oh yeah, my dick has straightened too.

Just kidding about that last part.    No noticeable change in curve yet.

[wiseguy]

Thanks for your replys...