ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[George999]

Danny,

I am really not sure that there is a correct way that one should 'hang'.  Of all the bodily features the male penis has to be the most chamelion like,  taking constantly different forms depending on the degree of engorgement.  In 58 years (including long before I had Peyronies), I have never been able to figure it out.  To me it is most certainly not something to worry about.  Its the plaques and the deformities that you need to be concerned about, not superficial things like how you 'hang'.  It really has little if anything to do with your problem, its actually pretty normal.  Just my thoughts, perhaps someone else can comment also or knows more about this than I do.

- George

[Rico]

Tim,

I don't know if you got a chance to read jagxjr post from January, he did say his Dr. Rajfer from ULCA prescribe cialis with the pentox, in one post he said 1x2.5  and in the other post he said 1x5mg per day....in the report he paste in from Gonzalez-Gadavid also listed his doctore on it Rajfer..... so it seems like six months ago they were prescribing cialis.... maybe they are just looking for night time erections...easier to control when you are taking a smaller amount and when you are sleeping....you have more experience with cialis, I have never use it....I use viagra a couple times for more of a fun time, was just curious, doctor friend of mine gave me some samples...I took 100mg once on a full stomach with wine, and got a upset stomach and a huge Italian pup tent in my pants, it wasn't a good combo to deal with...Lucky my girlfriend at the time was understanding and let me eat ice cream while she had a protein cone of her own, if you aren't moving around it not too on the upset stomach....anyway I think the 25mg at night with no booze or heavy food or exercise wouldn't bother ones stomach...

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

Does anyone know if Dr. Levine or Mulhall has answered the question of whether its safe to be on the l arginine/ pentox / viagra combo and still doing the 26 week protocol, I seemed to be having no problems doing this with the l arginine and pentox, now that I've added viagra I want to make sure its safe.

ComeBackid

[Liam]

I've had no problem pumping while on Viagra and I've been doing a while.  I really don't notice a difference in the pump either way (Yah, no greater puplitude  LOL).

As far as the "hanging".  There are normal variations in the flaccid size of the penis.  However, a combination of size loss and plaque cause what has been called on this forum (credit to wantitstr8) the "turtle effect".   Imagine a frightened turtles head tucking into its shell.

This situation is disturbing and uncomfortable.  It prompted me to use a traction device, which helped.  Now I am taking the Peyronies Disease drug trinity, do not use traction, pump-up daily and the turtle effect is gone.  There is some normal variation in flaccid size but, it seems more inside the normal limits.

Of all the bad stuff associated with Peyronies Disease, the turtle effect was one of the most distressing for me.

Has anyone seen the "Super Viagra" Mardi Gras beads?  You can bet I'll throw some this
year.  Last year I gave my uro and his nurse "Cajun Viagra" (written on oysters) beads.  They were hysterical.

[Tim468]

As we all know, stress or cold stress can make for a "turtle effect". Now, we all know that there are "showers" and "growers" when it comes to flaccid versus erect penis size (and a few who do both... sigh).

Flaccid length and "hang" may mean nothing when it comes to Peyronies Disease or normal penile function. However, just a personal observation. There has always been a very close correlation between an uptight "turtle" effect and activity of my Peyronie's Disease. I know that I can feel it when something is worsening - and it may be that this is stressful to me, and the stress-related release of adrenal hormones (like adrenalin) cause the turtle effect. But I have always had a very strong intuitive sense that it was "worsening" while it was "turtling", and have - for years - dealt with that by tugging, heating, masturbating, relaxing - doing anything I could to get it to be different (I noted that the relaxed state after an orgasm would leave me hanging loose for a while).

Now, I will say this too - the fear of worsening and the relating that to the hang, and the attendant behaviors I have worked out to deal with that have not always been in my favor, so to speak. One reason that I like the VED is that it allows me to not sexualize all the moments of my life - to deal with this in a non-sexual way. That has been to the good for my relationships! I know that we are using the VED for other reasons, but one advantage for me is the hang lasts a bit longer, and the worrying is lessened; I think that the stretching with the VED will prevent accumulated deviations from occuring, and am lesw worried about my "hang time" now.

Tim

[Rico]

Can some of the guys on here who doctor prescribe the pentox/viagra/pentox ask there doctor if you wanted to use cialis or levtria what dose should you take....thanks..

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico,

I think you will find nothing on trazodone and Peyronies Disease.  I first brought this topic to this forum on a tip someone shared with me on a now defunct forum.  Post prostate surgery but before Peyronies Disease,  Dr. Mulhall stressed the importance of 3 erections per week of 40 to 90 minutes to regain nerve growth and maintain heath of the penis.  To accomplish this he prescribed bimix injections.  When I got Peyronies Disease (evidence indicates it was caused by the injections), I refused to inject any more even though he wanted me to continue.  As I discussed this with a Peyronies Disease patient in private on another forum, he told me of his encounter with trazodone as a sleep aid and increased night-time erections.  We discussed it eliminating the need for injections.  I discussed this with my family physician and he prescribed it.  It was a resounding success from the first tiny dose.  (consider that at the time I had 100% ED and even a 100 mg Viagra would have little to no impact on me.  It was the first erection without bimix injections in 12 months.  I reported on it and others tried it with similar experiences.

I stopped trazodone for 2 weeks when I started ginseng (white Korean) but got little or no NTE from the ginseng so i am going to at least take a trazodone 3 - 4 times a week and wait for 30 days to see if the ginseng kicks in.  If not, I will try Korean red ginseng if i can find an source that is independently tested for potency and purity.

I do  not promote trazodone as a Peyronies Disease treatment but one  thing I know.  It reliably delivers NTE to most men if taken at very minimal doses.  Whatever benefit NTE deliver, it promotes them.  It is literally as cheap as dirt, and is the best kept secret around.  

[Rico]

Hawk,

I have doing Prince of Peace red ginseng that I bought at GNC, Liam had mention it and I looked into the company, they are out of San Fransisco... I do believe GNC has one of the better quality controls on there supplements and suppliers...The Asian market likes this product also, the roots are six years old and heat dried...I have had good NTE with it, I'm also taking ginkgo with it....

My question on the trazdone is do you get any side effects from it..hang over feeling ect... I have thought about this for a sleep aid and the benefits of the erections myself...

Levitra seems like a good ED drug to me also..and so does cialis....the more I read on them and now that they have been around for eight years I feel pretty comfortable with them and think they will get better and will lead to the peyronies puzzle....

Trazdone is listed in reports for ED...I find it interesting and like I said as a sleep aid for guys with stress in the being of this is something to think about, although it might be too much with another ED drug....

Have you ever talked to this jagxjr Hawk? I sent him a email, no answer?

Rico....

[Hawk]

It is likely that I take more supplements than anyone on this forum.  I did so before Peyronies Disease as part of adjunct treatment for aggressive prostate cancer that I was told had a 50% chance of returning.  Much of it is based on PhD's in nutrition, naturopathic medicine, and MDs from Cancer Treatment Centers of America.  For decades, as a body builder, I studied the most sound information I could find on supplements.  I suspect that IF we knew everything yet to be discovered, that we could prevent and cure virtually all diseases if we only knew every fact about nutrition and knew what was going on in our bodies and when it was occurring.  When is that first cell getting ready to mutate into cancer, when is that trigger getting ready to produce scar tissue or other auto-immune response.  The problem is that the scientific community collectively has not even scratched the surface on either of these topics so we have a few facts with 99.9% of the picture hidden.  There are hundreds if not thousands of nutrients that have yet to even be identified.  New ones are isolated yearly with little understanding of their effect or their interaction within a complex body.  We know NOTHING of their role as it relates to interaction with other nutrients.  Why do smokers get increased rates of cancer if given the antioxidant beta carotene?  Why does milk kill the benefits of dark chocolate?  How and when may arginine be either beneficial or detrimental to Peyronies Disease.  Does vitamin C protect cancer cells along with normal cells, or does it enhance chemo and radiation therapy.  The list is 5 miles long before we even discuss the impact of timing or the interaction of one supplement with another.  Add the complexity of individual chemistry.  Why does Tim get fewer side effects from Cialis when Cialis gives me killer back aches and levitra leaves me free of known side effects?  We worry that Viagra may not be evenly distributed in a pill but seldom question how an MD arrived at the recommended dose that is the same for Peyronies Disease patients whether they are a 265 lb man with total ED or a 145 lb man without ED.  They both get prescribed 25 mg per nite.  Would 15 or 35 mg be better

Next, let's add the fact that supplement manufacturers do not need to register their products with FDA nor get FDA approval before producing or selling supplements. Manufacturers must only make sure that product label information is truthful and not misleading (in theory).  FDA's post-marketing responsibilities include monitoring safety, e.g. voluntary dietary supplement adverse event reporting. The Federal Trade Commission regulates dietary supplement advertising.   With these loose controls and thousands of products hitting the market with new names yearly, independent labs find that many supplements have less than 1/10 of the active ingredient that is advertised on the label.  Many have heavy metal contamination or other ingredients including prescription drugs mixed in.  While this is the minority, our belief that we are taking the same supplement dosage as another is often based more on faith than knowledge.  Often people here say I "believe in arginine" or whatever.  Or I believe you should cycle off of supplements.  Those statements of belief (faith) rather than knowledge (I think), may be more appropriate than we wish they were.

I hope none of us ever conclude that we have nutrition figured out and that we remind ourselves and others that visit here that we are often panning for gold in some random local creek.  We hope we just might make that lucky find instead of the equally likely possibility that we could fall in and drown.

[DannyOcean]

I guess there were two reasons why I asked about hanging.  The first was that it seems like being "fuller" more of the time would probably help to contribute to healing of Peyronies Disease.  So anything that we could do to encourage this would be a good thing right?  The other thing is that I've definitely noticed that I haven't hung as well since Peyronies Disease.  I do notice the turtle effect from time to time (usually when I'm running or working out which actually seems counter-intuitive).  Given that the turtle effect seems to be related to Peyronies Disease it would seem that anything that would move in the other direction would be beneficial.  I'm definitely more of a grower than a shower but I'm hoping to turn into the latter as well if that will help with healing this Peyronies Disease...and also am jealous of all y'all on the VED as that definitely seems like it would help me...

I also wanted to ask about one supplement that I haven't seen discussed here much if at all...ZMA.  Based on some stuff that I've read (here and here) it seems like ZMA might be helpful supplement for people with Peyronies Disease.  I guess I'm still a little unclear as to what ZMA would give you that a good multi-vitamin wouldn't but given that a lot of bodybuilders use ZMA I thought it might be worth exploring.  Thoughts?

[Kimo]

 Just thought i'd let ya all know how it's been working for me..I've been on trazadone now for about 2 to 3 months for my stomach and intestinal pain caused by a bad parasite infection..I don't think it has done much for me in the way of night time erections, a little , but not a lot. Some times i do notice that i hang fuller, i like that...But it does make me sleep more,,i don't care for the dreaming side effects and when i wake up in the morning i'm really foggy for a few minutes until i get my shower....

I'm still not sure if it has really helped a lot with my pain yet, i'm still trying to figure it out...I was taking 25mg to begin with and my pain got worse so my doc up'd my dose to 50mg once a day at bedtime for 2 weeks and it didn't get any better so i dropped it back down....

This i do know, it will make ya sleep a lot better and it is as cheap as dirt like Hawk says,,,About 4.50 a month for 30 pills of 50mg, which you can cut in half, i buy mine at walmart....ie; i'm not promoting walmart, i can't stand walmart, it's just close and easy for now.....Also, because of my age i have cut my dosage down to 25mg of viagra ,,,i cut a 100mg into 4's,,,and this i have found dosen't hurt as much when erect as say a 50 or a 100..if i take a higher dose it makes my penis too hard and then my old plaque area will hurt a lot more.....Anyway's , these are my thoughts, take care and keep up the good work Hawk....I'm glad i can come here and read..............kimo

[Hawk]

Rico,

In answer to your question I have no side effects from 25 mg trazodone.  I suspect those that are groggy for several minutes in the morning are not getting 7-8 hours sleep.  If I know I will only get 5  hours sleep, I don't take it.

I am curious that you have the impression that cycling off supplements cleanses your liver.  Supplements are products found in food that we consume daily.  Many by products of food consumption are not even processed by the liver but by pancreatic enzymes, intestine, kidneys, etc.  Exactly what do you take that is contaminating your liver?  How do you know how long it takes to decontaminate your liver, and how do you know when it is contaminated again?  Or is this more of a ritual or schedule that you just like to follow without any real evidence of how it directly impacts your liver?  We all have such routines, I was just thinking that since you mentioned it you may have some solid information to share.  Do you also fast and eliminate food consumption during these periods?

PS: one last point I want to drive in the ground.  I did not say we don't know everything.  I said that the entire collective scientific community has no clue on 99 % of the picture.  That is much closer to saying that it is my view that we know next to nothing compared to the body of facts that remain to be understood.

[Hawk]

I believe cycling off nutrients and depleting nutrients from your system is bad.

[mister]

I'm very new to this forum, but very glad I found it!  I've recently been diagnosed with Peyronie's Disease, but have had a curvature for over two years now.  I originally thought it was because I had taken some Viagra to enhance sex and that I had traumatized my penis from engorging it with too much blood.  Now I'm not sure if that's what happened to my once above average, straight, beautiful penis.  Anyway, now I have pain "everytime" I have an erection.  I can still perform sexually, but not without discomfort...I'm also feeling a new dent in my shaft and I'm afraid of what the future holds.  I've recently been doing some research about my condition.  My urologist, just said "take some ibuprofen" to decrease my painful erections.... I am not satisfied with his assistance or his bedside manner...but I am hopeful that there are some "better" answers.  I don't believe that my condition (like some) will correct itself.... does anyone have any information about "Aminobenzoate Potassium"...it seems to have helped some.   Please feel free to reply

Mister Desperate (and a little depressed)

[Kimo]

Mister,    I too came down with peyronies after my first dose of viagra,,but i don't believe it was the viagra's fault, i know i had injured my penis long before from having rough sex..For the first time in a long time to have a good hardon with the viagra felt absolutly wonderful but it started a pain in my penis about half way back on the top and with in a few short weeks i was bent and twisted like a donut and scared and almost depressed...Your not alone, i know how you feel, but keep a positive attidude and read and listen to the good advise that Hawk and the others are giving here,it will help get you through....

I'm still bent up but not as bad and can have sex pretty good with my wife, i do have another new area of plaque and it hurts when having intercourse, i just try to not think of the pain and only on the good feeling when with my wife...I just won't let it stop me from having sex with my wife, there's always a way, use your imagination.....

take care,,,,,,,,,,,,,kimo

[Hawk]

Mister,

Welcome!  Posting members are the life of this form.  It is our goal to hear from all members rather than a limited number.

Aminobenzoate Potassium is the generic form of Potaba.  It is an traditional approach that has been around for a long time but has become less common due in part that newer approaches are being used and in part because its rate of effectiveness was not impressive.  It requires massive numbers of pill and very often results in significant stomach upset.  many men here that have been around for a long time, have tried it.  If you are determined to go that route, the generic can be significanly cheaper but it would not be my first choice.

[Mister Dillon]

Mister

Welcome to the forum,  you have come to the right place and will be helped by the information and good will you will find here.  It has helped me understand my condition and given me the information to combat it.  The depression will pass as you realize that you are not in this alone.

I guess I will need to sign off with my full name now.

Mister Dillon

[Liam]

Potaba is a disgusting supplement and will eventually upset your digestive track.  At best, it claims to do is to possibly stop the progression of Peyronies Disease, not reverse it.

Try the l-arginine and some of the other supplements and meds mentioned in the forum.  I would rate potaba right up there with Vit E and wearing a chicken foot around your neck    

Good Luck and thanks for posting.  

Liam

[Hawk]

No wonder that chicken foot isn't working, you're not supposed to wear it around your neck!

[DannyOcean]

Wanted to re-open the discussion on these two supplements.  I know they were discussed previously but I was wondering if anyone had anything new to add here.  I read through all of the posts in this thread a while back and the consensus was that these could be helpful but nobody seemed to think they were essential.  I'm on Pentox/Viagra/L-Arginine/ACL right now, just dropped Gingko, and wondering if there's anything else I should add to the mix.

Thoughts?

[myrddin]

Anyway, now I have pain "everytime" I have an erection.  I can still perform sexually, but not without discomfort...I'm also feeling a new dent in my shaft and I'm afraid of what the future holds.  I've recently been doing some research about my condition.  My urologist, just said "take some ibuprofen" to decrease my painful erections.... I am not satisfied with his assistance or his bedside manner...but I am hopeful that there are some "better" answers.

Mr. Desperate,

I'm not sure how much you've read here yet, but just a few months ago I also had a dent and painful erections, and one of the most helpful suggestions I got from people on this board was to immediately start taking (approximately) L-Arginine 1.5g, 2x/day and Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALC) 1g, 2x/day, both on an empty stomach.  Within just a few weeks my pain was significantly reduced.  That is a good way to start, IMO.

Also it sounds like your Urologist is almost clueless (ok, that may sound harsh, but my first Urologist was, too) so do the best you can to find the most knowledgable Urologist in your area on Peyronies, and make an appointment.  Ask your current Urologist who they think is the Peyronies expert in your area.  Call their office and ask upfront, how many Peyronies patients does he see, is he up on the latest treatments?  This will be hugely helpful in the long run.  If the best advice your Uro can give is "take ibuprofen" or "try vitamin E for a year, and get back to me," find someone else.  If even part of your scarring is in the active phase (which it sounds like it is), time is of the essense, and your best chance of stopping further progression is by acting quickly.

Also, you know they're going to recommend Vitamin E, so find the highest quality "mixed tocopherols" Vitamin E you can and start taking 1 or 2 a day.  As you will read on this board, the quality of your vitamin E might just make a big difference.

Anyway, welcome to the board and good luck!

[Hawk]

My opinion:

I took a lot of quality enzymes for 3 months with no slight detectable benefit.  I think they are total hype for Peyronies Disease and have no more ability to impact a scar on your tunica than they have to remove a scar from your arm.

You are on a solid program.  I say give it time to work and do not interfere with it by mixing unknowns into the soup.

If you do not get good solid erections, (or maybe even if you do) you might consider a VED.

[George999]

I just want to add my two bits worth on this issue regarding 'cycling' on and off of supplements/herbs.  Like Hawk, I am a little skeptical of Rico's concept of 'cleansing the liver'  just as I am of such things as 'colon cleansing'.  I really believe that the body is made to process food and nutrients and is perfectly capable of 'cleansing' itself as necessary without having to have a change in diet in order to accomplish that.  Having said that, I think that when it comes to supplements/herbs, we need to remember that there is a drug aspect to them.  The supplements that really engage the body and produce results are also capable of producing unwanted side effects.  They are also capable, when used in sufficient strengths, to deplete the body of other nutrients.  So I am realizing that there does come a time when it is necessary to stop taking a certain supplement or perhaps all supplements and to get a fresh look at the total picture.  In my case, I have currently stopped all of my supplements for a few weeks because 1) I want to see how my body is currently responding to my prescription meds (as a baseline) in the absence of the supplements, 2) I want to get a complete blood panel done (as a baseline) without risking having it skewed by one or more supplements, 3) I want to see if some of the conditions which have been essentially cured by the supplements return once I am off of them or if they are 'perminently' cured, and 4) I want to see if a new problem that I have recently encountered is being instigated or agrevated by any one supplement or any combination of supplements I am taking.  Once all of this has been accomplished I am looking forward to continuing some or all of the supplements I was previously taking.  But I do feel the need from time to time to stand back, reevaluate things, and get a fresh start.

- George

[Rico]

Here is just one article on supplements and if you should cycle....there are many more and they all say the same thing, cycle!!!

www.athleticadvisor.com      put supplements in search on this site....

Rico

[percival]

Hawk
You have summed up the health/fitness/diet aspect nicely!
I don't want to discourage others from improving their overall health, but since acquiring Peyronies Disease some 24 years ago, I have kept to a healthy high fibre diet with lots of fruit and veg, I have kept physically very fit - regular circuit training and Ju-Jitsu. Also, I have never smoked, and I drink very little alcohol (after being told at school: 'drink'll shrinkle your winkle'). Sadly, the net result has been a gradual worsening of Peyronies Disease.
However, improving your overall health is a good thing to focus on and it takes your mind off Peyronies Disease!
Percival

[George999]

I just want to express my general agreement with Hawk.  I think that dealing with smoking and drinking should be a first step, followed by significant diet changes.  But this thread IS dedicated to (as I understand) non-prescription things we might consume that might have special value in dealing with Peyronies.  It is a place where we can share those substances we have come across that we either got a great deal of percieved benefit from or that we have uncovered promising research that might indicate it to be helpful.  From there we can jointly tear that substance apart and discuss its potential critically in a manner that might produce some fairly interesting and useful content for each other and for onlookers.  So while the detour into nutrition was an interesting diversion, it is probably indeed time to remember what we are here for and get back to the business at hand.  And perhaps there is a need for a general health and nutrition thread where the value of these things can indeed be pointed out to the great unwashed masses that have partied themselves into a stupor and survived on McDonalds and Colonol Sanders for as long as they can remember and now wonder why the have Peyronies Disease.

[Liam]

I have improved my diet and quit smoking.  I still drinks a bit (ala BoJangles) for medicinal purposes (Red, Red, Wi-i-i-i-ine).  Maybe I will live long enough for a cure for Peyronies Disease to be found.

[csup]

I am not sure whether a healthy diet and exercise has any bearing on the physical aspects of Peyronies Disease, but it just might help mentally. I run regularly and play around on a weight machine, and at age 52, it is becoming harder to keep the middle in check. When I got diagnosed w/ Peyronies Disease, all I wanted to do was come home, plop down in a chair and drink myself into a stupor. But then thinking about trying to work off all that beer made me change my mind. I came home and ran some of the anger off. Just my 2 cents.

[hopeful]

Great Stuff Rico- you sure know your SHi_

Hopeful

DannyOcean,

I agree with Hawk....I wouldn't add anything to your prescriptson....I just read a article on Priapism...several cases of men coming in with erections that had lasted over four hours, one man was two days, the drugs of choice for them...yes you got it....pentox/arginine/viagra  at the same dose they are prescribing to you....the results where no typical scarring as in most cases of Priapism.....

[George999]

I would have to argue that excercise theoretically should be good for Peyronies.  The reason is that exercise tends to mobilize nitric oxide metabolism in the body which is exactly what you are doing with Pentox/Viagra/Arginine.  So I would argue that exercise would only potentiate the effect of Pentox/Viagra/Arginine by stimulating nitric oxide production throughout the body.

- George

[csup]

I have seen several references to arginine on this forum, but not sure exactly what benefits it might have w/ Peyronies disease. How much is the accepted daily amount.
crs

[Rico]

csup,

Arginine is a precursor of nitric oxide, which causes blood vessel relaxation(vasodilation). It is what the ED drugs like Viagra are trying to do, now of course they are much more effective with there potency....but by taking arginine several times Day you are keeping more circulation in your unit....blood flow...

You can read more about this on the forum, I suggest as far as how much you take to go to the health food store and buy a good blend of arginine and take the dose the label suggest and adjust to your needs...


GNC ISOMER E..... 100% more antioxidant capacity than natural vitamine E... if you are looking for a full spectrum E , this is it.... not only does this have the d-gamma in the dose George and Tim recommend but it has the Toco-Rich tm....read the label..this is the state of the art Vitamin E...it is a little pricey, but you get what you pay for and I try to buy it the first week of the month with the discount and the large bottle of 90 capsules.....

Rico

[George999]

Just an added note to Rico's comment.  If you go to http://www.bodybuilding.com , they have some really great resources there in terms of Arginine and its effects.  In terms of Peyronies, nitric oxide has been shown to be capable of actually attacking and breaking up plaques.  It is really essential in nourishing tissues in addition to its positive effects on blood flow.  But be sure to get a professional formulation of Arginine designed to mobilize nitric oxide metabolism.  The bodybuilding supplement industry has done a great deal of research in this area and they are the people to look to for the best products.  But don't just go out and buy plain Arginine, it is the scientifically formulation complex blends that really do the job.

- George

[ComeBacKid]

George,

Whats is your definition of "professional formulation," of arginine?  What are the "scientifically formulation complex blends?"  Do you have any scientific evidence or literature to back up that one type of arginine is better than another?  Also I"m not so sure nitric oxide has been shown to be capable of actually attacking and breaking up plaques, I thought it was more to act as an anti-fibrotic, but if you have any information that proves nitric oxide can do this feel free to post.

Also I wanted to point out to Rico and maybe others that are confused about why viagra is added to the protocol from Dr. Levine.  Viagra is not added to work with pentox in reducing the plaque, its taken to encourage nightime erections, the pentox study that shows pentox can help reduce plaque and curvature was done with pentox only, not viagra or arginine.  The L Arginine of course is added because its a precursor to nitric oxide, while the viagra will give erections, and Dr. Levine believes will act as an anti-fibrotic.

[Hawk]

I found 2 cents worth to throw in on several past comments.  

First, I share Pudders curiosity on his specific questions on arginine.  

Why take Viagra?  Next, I have no clue what specifically Dr. Levine thinks Viagra will do, but I have doubts that he thinks it will increase night time erections or that erections are his stated goal for adding Viagra to the mix.  If that were the issue then he is way off track because clearly trazodone kicks the butt of any 25 mg dose of Viagra for 1/100th of the cost.  I was prescribed  25 mg of nightly Viagra by Dr. Mulhall and specifically told it was NOT for erections of any type.  That was pre-Peyronie's, but I was told it would help maintain healthy tissue and encourage nerve regeneration but that it was not expected or intended to give me any erections.  Erections were taken care of through an entirely different route.  

We had this same forum conversation before and Tim specifically stated that night-time erections were not the goal so trazodone did not fill the bill.  Inhibiting PDE5 levels independent of any erections was the goal.

Body building - I have had some close casual contact with body building and with power lifting.  I was friends with a state champion body builder, have read more than a dozen books by well known figures, hundreds of magazines, and had direct on-phone consultations with a well known body builder.  There is no more corrupt industry permeated with total unadulterated BS and hype than the body building industry. None !  They have polished deceptive advertising to a fine art and taken it to levels enzite marketers have not yet dreamed of.  I do not think that means no one in the industry ever has a grain of useful information but it does mean that being associated with the body building industry should throw up a red flag of warning, not a stamp of reliability.  That "industry" has fine tuned the art of throwing technical terms, chemical processes, carefully veiled claims into high priced slick multipage ads that pose as objective articles. They are about one thing, sucking the squandered dollars from the last BS hype to a better must-have new break through BS hype.  Simply put, out BS'ing their competitors BS.

If this were the place I could deluge this forum with pages of revealing examples.  

[George999]

ComeBackid, this whole thing revolves around ways to mobilize nitric oxide.  It is the nitric oxide that actually does the work.  The problem is that the plaque itself contains abnormally large amounts of both TGF-beta and PDE-5.  TGF-beta causes localized over expression of Arginase which subsequently blocks nitric oxide synthesis from Arginine from food sources.  That is why we want to block Arginase or TGF-beta to stop the Arginase in the first place.  Pentox does just that, thus the end result of Pentox administration is to open the door for the Arginine channel.  Supplying the Arginine is then the logical next step.  But the problem doesn't end there.  PDE-5 also blocks the production of nitric oxide in the plaque.  So we need to also inhibit PDE-5.  This is done with the Viagra.  Thus, the three in concert open the door to production of nitric oxide within the vicinity of the plaque and it is the nitric oxide itself that actually enables the body to break down the plaque and remodel it into normal tissue.  For this purpose (the Pentox/Viagra/Arginine treatment), I would ask your doctor as to exactly what form of Arginase works best.  For anyone else NOT TAKING PENTOX, I would advise to check the information on bodybuilding.com.  For those on Pentox, the Pentox and Viagra are ALREADY opening the door for the Arginine.  But for those not taking Pentox, Arginine alone may be of little use.  The new formulas available from bodybuilding;.com come with Arginase blockers, which, while not as effective as Pentox, perform the same function in opening the door to Arginine.  These professional formulations along with Horny Goat Weed would approximate the Pentox/Viagra/Arginine protocol on a less potent level.

- George

[csup]

It sounds like most of you out there have done a whole heck of a lot of research on the chemical side of things associated w/ Peyronies Disease. I am going to seek out a new Uro this week that will have some (or alot) of experience w/ this disease. Can anyone tell me what I should be asking him about as far as oral meds he can prescribe, or OTC meds? Is pentox by prescription? I thought viagra still was, but not sure.

crs

[Tim468]

ComeBackid, we have gone around (and around) before about the role of Viagra in helping to deal with Peyronies Disease.

It is a PDE5 inhibitor and thus is important in decreasing collagen formation through the TGF-Beta pathways. Increasing arginine and NO levels (with Viagra) leads to less inflammatory pressures to form collagen/fibrin/placque, and to allow for remodeling.

If Levine uses it for night time erections fine and dandy, but it is not why PDE5 drugs have been used and recommended by Lue and Gonzalez-Cadavid (or is it Cadavid-Gonzalez?).

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

Hawk,

To me it is unclear as well why Dr. Levine thinks viagra will improve nightime erections, and if he thinks this is the only thing it will do.  All I know is that after taking viagra at nightime now right before bed, I'm waking up with hard ons a lot, and am getting a lot of nightime erections.  Trazodone also provided me with nightime erections.  Hawk I think most doctors don't know about the benefits of trazodone, have we heard Dr. Mulhall or Dr. Levine mention it once?  I think your ahead of the game with the trazodone, the thing is I'm not sure if trazodone is a pde- 5 inhibitor like viagra, so viagra can do the double whammy job of giving nightime erections and decreasing collagen formation through tgf-beta pathways as tim points out.  The only problem is viagra is so expensive... oh canadaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

ComeBackid

[Rico]

Forum members:

Can someone help me put Trazdone in perspective as far as the dose of 25mg at night time for erections....I understand the reasoning for the health benefit of night time erections, but from the stand point of interaction of the drug with say pde5 inhibitors such as Viagra.....would this drug resemble more of a pentox or Viagra or neither.......I have found pentox and trazdone listed with ED drugs.....what causes the erections with trazdone?

Rico

[Rico]

Forum members:

I would like to know who on the forum is currently on pentox/viagra/arginine  and if you were prescribe the formula or order yourself... conditions, if you are using VED exercises also, what have been your results...

Tim I know you were going to see a Urologist and start on pentox and see if you could get the viagra script filled.....I was wondering if you did this...

This combo seems the most promising alone with VED, but not really hearing or reading much on it, other than the posting here....

Rico

[Hawk]

Trazodone is NOT a PDE5 inhibitor.  Unless otherwise established, this would mean that it may provide healthy oxeygenation of tissue through night-time erections (NTE) but that it would not replace Viagra, and there is no evidence it would inhibit TGF a suspected component in formation of Peyronie's plaque (scar tissue).

Trazodone should not be taken in the same 24 hr period as Viagra.

[Rico]

I was reading on a site, primarily for Vitamin E, it mention E and peryonies and said that Fexofenadine is used in the early stages of peyronies...this was written in 2001.... I believe this is used for allergy relief?

Anyone here of this before?

Thanks Hawk, I figure you would know the answer on trazdone...

Rico

[csup]

I was reading on Wikipedia last night about Nitric Oxide and Minoxidil, and how this drug (Minoxidil) is a vasodilator, and is a nitric oxide agonist. It sounds like it links to the nitric oxide in the body. Has anyone ever heard of, or tried using this drug to aid in the release of NO in the plaque area(s) of Peyronies Disease? What about the 5% topical hair formula (Rogain) applied to the penis itself. (Hopefully it wouldn't aid in hair growth in this location).

crs

[Hawk]

Csup,

Minoxidil has a high abosption rate through the skin but as you indicated, Minoxidil is an Nitric Oxide (NO) antagonist which has the opposite effect of arginine which functions as an NO donor.  If anything, Minoxidil would likely kill an erection and blood flow.  In fact, there are reports of increased incidence of Peyronie's among users of Minoxidil.  I am not sure if this connection between Minoxidil use and increased incidence of Peyronies Disease is documented but in any case, the last thing you want is something that is an antagonist of NO.

[mark501]

There is a release of histamine in the early stages of peyronie's (when nodules appear) & when it reactivates at any later time. That release is only one of a cascade of events that take place. Fexofenadine blocks the histamine-1 receptor on tissues. It is not the only anti-histamine to do this but may be more effective for peyronie's than benadryl or claritin. Histamine triggers inflammatory mediators. A good research paper on this can be found at: http://www.aaaai.org/aadmc/ate/antihistamine.html     Some studies suggest that as little as 30mg - 40mg of allegra can be just as effective as higher doses. This has also been my personal experience. In 04 I had hernia surgery w/mesh implant stapled to outside of peritoneum. My peyronie's reacatived after surgery in significant way. That mesh eventually failed and in 06 I had to repeat this surgery in a more invasive way; mesh stapled to inside of peritoneum. My peyronie's did not reactivate after this surgery. In the week prior to surgery (but not within 48 hours of the procedure) I took 30mg of allegra daily for 2 days. After returning home the same day I took 30mg a day for 7 days. I stopped then because my testicles were becoming sensitive & thought there might be a connection. That sensitivity went away 3 days later. Is Allegra the reason my peyronie's did not reactivate this time? I can't be sure because of all the complexities involved.To be sure would require a large number of men with the same experience. I have seen no evidence suggesting that Allegra would help when peyronie's is not in an active stage.

[csup]

Hawk,
The Wikipedia said that Minoxidil was a Nitric Oxide agonist, not antagonist. On reading the definition of agonist, I took it to mean that this was a help to NO, not something that would attack it. I am very new to this disease, and definitely have a lot to learn about it. I don't even really know the correct pronounciation of the da_n word yet. Is it pay-rone-ees as one site suggested? Where is the accent placed? Thanks.

crs

[George999]

Topical minoxidil in the treatment of male erectile dysfunction:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8158763&dopt=Abstract

And note this conclusion to an article on ED:

Topical ointments containing such ingredients as prostaglandin E, minoxidil, or herbs are also used. But none of the experts interviewed thought they compared well to other therapies.

http://www.umdnj.edu/umcweb/marketing_and_communications/publications/umdnj_magazine/hstate/win97/win97up.html

Drugs that may cause impotence (note that minoxidil is on the list):

http://www.umm.edu/ency/article/004024.htm

There are drugs out there like minoxidil, that definately stimulate nitric oxide (it was orginally developed as an anti-hypertensive drug), that are very tempting to apply to Peyronies and ED.  But one has to remember that a given drug may on the one hand stimulate nitric oxide, and on the other hand also take back what it has given and more with other pharmacological effects.  So while on the surface, minoxidil looks attractive, one needs to dig into the actual research to get a picture of what its actual value might be.  And the actual investigation on the use of minoxidil for Peyronies is NOT encouraging.  It has apparently helped A FEW people in the short term with NO RECORD of long term follow up.  We also know it has been tested on quite a few people and has not been helpful to most of them.  That is not a good indication for its use in my opinion.

Other treatments like the Pentox protocol are much more promising.  That is the direction I would look to if I were afficted with Peyronies that is severe and debilitatiing.  Otherwise, I would be looking to substances with a consistent research track record for attacking TGF-beta, Arginase, PDE-5, etc. without carrying any extra baggage of potential nasty side effects.

[Liam]

Accent is on the middle syllable.

puh RONE nees   (in English)

[Hawk]

Sorry for the misread and my misspeak.  I am still in a rush but want to say that I have read that minoxidil applied directly to an erection will cause loss of that erection.  It could be misinformation or the fact that minoxidil as an agonist binds to the NO receptor but does not mimic the action of NO and blocks NO as a result.  I have also read on websites and heard several anecdotal accounts on forums of Peyronies Disease development after use of minoxidil.  Though it could be the age/group relationship, it seems there may be more to it than that.