SUPLEMENTS - Arginine, Carnitine, Citrulline, Omega 3 Fish Oil & Others

[chefcasey]

I agree with George.  Stick with pentox and coq10 as the primary course of oral therapy.  Both forms of carnitine may have some benefit, but the study for ALC is clearly not in the same league as the pentox and coq10 studies.  Also, there is some new research that indicates cialis as being useful in the resolution of scar tissue, so that might be something worth exploring as well.

[getbiguk]

Ok,

Should I first find out if it is peyronies or just a curve?

My foreskin has scar tisue as one bit never expands, could this help with that?

Are  these two supplements heavy on the system though?

Oh and im only 26 am i too young to take these?

[LWillisjr]

I would suggest you determine if it is Peyronies or a congenital curve. The treatments are different. Meds won't help any with a congenital curve.

[chefcasey]

getbiguk:  

Ok..If you've always had the curve, then it is a congenital curvature.  In that case, NONE of these meds or supplements will do anything for it.  The only thing that can be done is surgery to correct it.  I have heard of men using traction devices to try to correct a congenital curve, but never heard of anyone having success.  

If the curve came out of nowhere, or from trauma, it could be Peyronies Disease or a one time scar, but the only way to know is to see a specialist.  If this is the case, then pentox, coq10, and any form of carnitine are perfectly fine to take for any age.  I take pentox and coq10 and I'm only 27.  Some men on here  who are taking cialis were originally taking it to help ED if they had it, but some recent research shows it may be benificial for scarring in the penis, so it may or may not be safe to take at a low dose if you do not have ED.  You need a prescription from a doctor for both pentox and cialis, so it's up to the doctor you see on whether or not you can take it.

If you have scar tissue on your foreskin, all of these meds have not been tested in terms of scarring on skin tissue, only tunica inside the penis.  It may be something that can be fixed by laser surgery on the skin.  I have seen some guys have scarring on their foreskin that was so bad, a circumcision was required.  Bottom line though, go to a specialist before you spend money on anything.

-chefcasey

[George999]

The topic you are posting under is "Oral Treatments for Peyronie's Disease".  If you post here, we will assume you have been diagnosed with Peyronie's.  If you have congenital curve, you should not even be posting here.  If you don't know what you have, you should get a professional medical diagnoses like others here are rightly advising you to do.  Its really a big waste of time for all of us including you if you post here without any basis in reality for doing so.  We don't mind providing the same answers over and over to people who actually know what their problem is, but why post here and waste all of our time when you really don't know what's going on?  - George

[getbiguk]

thanks for the info


Sucks that if its natural you are screwed. Mine has gotten worse since I was younger but it wasnt straight but it feels like the top half has no give or growth while the bottom looks developed. Thats why im also thinking of penis lenghting. hoping the cutting the top will balance out the curve by drooping the top a bit.

[getbiguk]

BTW i want to add that i had blood test done and vitamin d is very low and also testosterone is low.  can this have n effect on curves even if natural and maybe penis length? feels shorter by about a centimeter

[George999]

If your vitamin D is "very low" that can have all kinds of bad effects on your body, including aggravating testosterone.  Number one on my list at this point if I were you would be to work on fixing what you know is haywire which is your vitamin D levels.  Get them up over 50ng/ml AND find out how much Vitamin D you need to take to keep them there.  This will help you in all sorts of ways some of which you would not even suspect.  I would give that some time and THEN relook at testosterone if you need to.  I would also see a urologist and make sure that your penis problem is congenital.  If it is, I wouldn't worry about it all that much.  Upward bends ARE common and not even considered congenital, simply normal.  Additionally, it is quite normal for penises to change there shape a bit over time, just like the rest of your body components.  You could try traction, but use caution or you could end up with a worse situation.  On the other hand, if there is a Peyronie's factor, you need to know that so you can treat it appropriately.  - George

[jackwert]

heres the link  it has 4 different types of l arginie in it http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mt/nanox9hardcore.html I bought a bottle of this stuff at my local rite aid store for 80 dollars for 180 caplets i takes 4 caplets twice a day and i really feel blood exploding thourgh my body probably due to the nitric oxide effect this supplement is supposed to have but my doctor told me to take L arginine along with pentoxyfylline 400 mg 3 times a day and im seeing some results ill update you as i progress further with my treatment . And iam 19 years old too

[newguy]

I'm glad to hear that you're having positive results. It definitely is a big plus for peyronie's sufferers to maintain strong erections, and l-arginine really does helps some men in this regard. That's why it is part of the PAV cocktail (pentox, l-arginine, viagra). Keep us updated on your progress!

[snowydreams]

What dosage of l-arginine is recommended?

[jetedwardz]

jack thats some serious dough ur shellin out 80.00 per roughly 22 days

[reo]

Before I developed Peyronies Disease I used to lift weights and took that supplement. It's powerful and it does work but I broke out in acne and had to quit taking it.

[rd]

heres the link  it has 4 different types of l arginie in it http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mt/nanox9hardcore.html I bought a bottle of this stuff at my local rite aid store for 80 dollars for 180 caplets i takes 4 caplets twice a day and i really feel blood exploding thourgh my body probably due to the nitric oxide effect this supplement is supposed to have but my doctor told me to take L arginine along with pentoxyfylline 400 mg 3 times a day and im seeing some results ill update you as i progress further with my treatment . And iam 19 years old too

What results are you seeing? Reduction in pain, reduction in deformity, etc?

[anthonycann]

Thank you, George and others,

I just read an article about L-Citrulline.  

http://www.smart-publications.com/articles/powerful-amino-acid-l-citrulline-proven-to-naturally-restore-erectile-funct/

I know that L-Arginine seems to be a supplement of choice on the forum and I am currently taking 2000mg/day of it.  Is there a reason no one has mentioned L-Citrulline as a supplement?  The article dictates that it is a far more efficient means of raising NO levels and promoting bloodflow to the penis.  I would think this would help us in our efforts.

Anthony

[George999]

If you go back through the threads you will find the L-Citrulline has been discussed at length here in the past.  It is yet another way of raising NO levels.  Whether it is a better way or not is a matter of discussion.  High nitrate intake is yet another way of reaching the same end and you can, of course, stack these various methods as well.  People argue whether which is better, but in reality you have to find out what works for you.  - George

[George999]

For those looking for a "better" arginine formula, there is a supplement out there that will greater increase the benefits of arginine.  Some years back many of us were achieving these benefits with a product known as SAN VasoFlow.  VasoFlow was an Arginine supplement with enhancers that was very effective for people who are Arginine resistant, which probably includes a large share of Peyronie's patients.  Then SAN discontinued VasoFlow and many of us were left up the creek without a paddle.  Well, GOOD NEWS!  Now there is a new product that can be used WITH Arginine which aims to achieve the same results when used in conjunction with an Arginine product.  Here is the link -> http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/controlled-labs/white-blood-2.html;jsessionid=958F629FCD25ABC7FBF7D07898EB1F53

http://www.controlledlabs.com/product_info.php?products_id=73

- George

[james1947]

George

I get by click on the link to White Blood 2, Stim-Free Nitric Oxide Support Formula. Arginine is not mentioned as a part of the product, maybe is a part of the formula? Coenzyme Q10 is there, but don't states how much.

In addition, in the "Warnings" that are many is stated:

This product is intended for adults 18-50 years of age only.

It means that for many of us (I am 64) is not adviced.

James

[George999]

James,

1)  This product is intended to be used WITH Arginine.  It is an Arginine enhancer.  The problem also is that a lot of people DON'T need Arginine, rather they need something to make Arginine work properly in their body.  Insulin wreaks havoc on Arginine metabolism.  That is one of the major components of metabolic syndrome which does not necessarily involve diabetes itself.  This product is intended to circumvent that problem by short circuiting some of its pathways.  For years I took the VasoFlow product which was the same formula combined with Arginine and found it very helpful.  I now have this product on order and will start taking it as soon as it arrives.

2)  I will be 65 in November myself and that will not stop me from taking this product.  The label also warns not to take this product if you have hypertension.  That will also not stop me from taking this product.  The only reason those warnings are on these products is because they are afraid of the FDA and lawsuits.  People run into problems with products like this only because they don't use common sense.  People who are hypertensive, for example, use things like this and don't do the obvious, like carefully checking their blood pressure along the way to make sure nothing is going wrong (because it CAN significantly lower blood pressure in some people).  Also people notoriously DO NOT even follow dosing instructions on the label.  AND, people don't stop taking the supplement EVEN if they run into problems with obvious side effects.  So, while I wouldn't advise anyone, including you, to ignore the advice on the label, I have taken this formula before for years without problems and therefore feel perfectly safe pursuing it again.  BUT, I will also continue my battle against serum glucose and insulin, since they are huge underlying factors in the whole of the problem.  - George

George

I get by click on the link to White Blood 2, Stim-Free Nitric Oxide Support Formula. Arginine is not mentioned as a part of the product, maybe is a part of the formula? Coenzyme Q10 is there, but don't states how much.

In addition, in the "Warnings" that are many is stated:

This product is intended for adults 18-50 years of age only.

It means that for many of us (I am 64) is not adviced.

James

[james1947]

George

Thank you for the clarification.
My knowledge in medicine was very limited until the age of 61 when my Peyronie's problems begin and same time my blood problems begone (high blood counts). Luckily my blood pressure in in the 120/80 - 110/70 range with hearth beat at 60 - 65.
Because my allergic reactions and also I will be 65 at Christmass I am very cautious with medications, supplements etc'

James

[George999]

And I am certainly not saying one should not be careful.  For example, in a situation like this, where the bottle says 6 pills a day, I will often start with one and CAREFULLY monitor it's effects and, only then, GRADUALLY increase the dose, all the while watching out for any problems.  It PAYS big time to be cautious.  - George

[james1947]

This is my approach even with doctors prescribed medications, I had already very bad experience with them (doctors).

For example in 1987 I had a surgery on my right leg, they install a plate with screws and I was given some medication that I don't remember the name. Each time I was trying to stand up, my head was turning and I lost stability. The doctors even don't listen to my complains. I stop taking it, next day I was OK.

James

[George999]

Yup, often the doctors don't even seem to pay attention to the warning labels.  Happens here in the US too.  - George

[Hawk]

White Blood 2 - $ 720.00 a year is hefty price considering l-arginine is not even an ingredient.

[George999]

White Blood 2 - $ 720.00 a year is hefty price considering l-arginine is not even an ingredient.

Actually I think there is a certain price for each bottle of pills.  And the advised number of pills per day noted on the bottle is for sports use, NOT Peyronie's use.  I am certainly planning to use far less of the product than what is advised for sports use.  But I KNOW the pharmacology of the ingredients and they ARE worth the money.  They hugely enhance the effect of Arginine for anyone who is Arginine resistant and I am VERY Arginine resistant.  Arginine is supposed to lower BP by dilating the vascular system.  In my case, Arginine actually raises my BP UNLESS I use the ingredients in White Blood 2.  I know that because that is how it worked out with VasoFlow which included roughly the same ingredients.  So to anyone who is getting good mileage out of Arginine alone, I would say forget about White Blood 2.  But for anyone not having benefit from Arginine alone, I would say give WB2 a try and see if its effect is worth the cost.  Again, I believe a dose far lower than the sports use level indicated on the label would be effective for Peyronie's use.  I know that SAN VasoFlow was supposed to be six pills at a time or something like that and I usually would take just one or two.  - George

[Luciano]

I just ordered Omega 3 fish oil. at puritans pride..
it says 1200 mg capsules containing 318mg of EPA and 204 mg of DHA

Now I read you should consume about 1 gram (1000 mg) of EPA and DHA omega-3 fatty acids daily for heart disease and 2 to 4 grams (2000 to 4000 mg) of EPA and DHA omega-3 fatty acids for High Triglycerides. (http://heart-disease.emedtv.com/fish-oil/fish-oil-dosage.html)

That would mean at least 10 of the softgels I bought per day-
Isn't that a little high? ? ? ?
Its not a question of price, they are pretty cheap, buy 2 get 5 at puritans pride. ( so its like $20 for 5x150 softgels)

Its more a question of efficiancy. I was wondering what a good dosage would be with Peyronies Disease. (I asked my doctor and he was honest: no idea)

Luc

For the moment I am taking 3 per day (with meals) that gives me: 954 mg of EPA and 612mg of DHA

[reynell]

Dint know about the dosage.  But as soon as i get back to normal I'm going to start taking allot of OTC vitams etc to help with heart health and blood flow.  I dont really think it will help me at my stage but I'm going to keep this from happening again.  Some one told me that certain types of fish oils will seep through your body and give a fishy smell to your sweat etc so watch for that.

[goodluck]

When it comes to Fish oils quality is extreamly important.  
You want to make sure the MFG is concerned with contamination issuess.  i.e. mercury, cadmium, lead, etc.
Also with oils they can go rancid if not handled and packaged propperly.
For this reason you don't want to buy a year supply in advance.  It is also a good idea to keep them in the refrigeratior after the bottle is opened.

I have been using Nordic Naturals and Carlsons.  At times I have used New Chapter.  All of these companies have a good reputation for quality.

If you take with food I have never heard of a problem with smelling fishy.

Something to keep in mind , Omega 3's are anti-inflamatory
While Omega-6's are inflamatory.  You want to make sure you supplement much more 3's than 6's.

[Luciano]

thanks for the info..
I'm using this one..
http://www.puritan.com/super-sale-829/double-strength-omega-3-fish-oil-1200-mg-017131?scid=3763&cm_mmc=GoogleProducts-_-Super%20Sale-_-double-strength-omega-3-fish-oil-1200-mg-_-017131
it says nothing about omega 6..  
Luc

[George999]

1) Nordic Naturals has an especially good reputation.
2) Krill Oil does not have the heavy metal contamination issues that fish oil has, but tends to be more expensive, though supposedly more potent.
3) Fish Oils do NOT contain Omega 6's.  Omega 6's are found in vegetable oils.

- George

[Luciano]

Thank you george, I think I will switch to nordic naturals!

[ComeBacKid]

Luciano,

For almost any intended purpose you want at least 800mg of Omega 3 from your fish or krill oil.  You don't need Omega 6's and 9's especially if you eat an American or Western diet, which is already heavy in those.  

[Luciano]

Luciano,

For almost any intended purpose you want at least 800mg of Omega 3 from your fish or krill oil.  You don't need Omega 6's and 9's especially if you eat an American or Western diet, which is already heavy in those.

Thanks... well the info on the pack says:

Ester Omega™ Fish Oil 1,200mg   (1.2 g) ***
provides 600mg of Total Omega-3 Fatty Acids† ***    
comprising of:    
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic Acid) 318mg ***    
DHA (Docosahexaenoic Acid) 204mg ***    
Other Fatty Acids ***    
**Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet.   
Directions: For adults, take one (1) softgel two times daily, preferably with meals. To maximize your intake of Omega-3 Oils, take up to 3 softgels daily.

So I am taking 3x1 daily

Luc

[Ralf3]

I just wonder that according to wikipedia L-Arginine has a function of strenghtening the immune system and healing wounds...

Arginine plays an important role in cell division, the healing of wounds, removing ammonia from the body, immune function, and the release of hormones.

and as we know, peyronies fibrosis is rather auto-immune response so isn't it kind of a immune stimulator?  

also it says that it helps with ED when taken with two other elements...how is it actually, what do you think?

Arginine taken in combination with proanthocyanidins[9] or yohimbine,[10] has also been used as a treatment for erectile dysfunction.

Thank you

[Luciano]

well yohimbine is like most natural anti-ed stuff:
I tried it, but didnt notice a difference.

Most bodybuilders take L-Arginine just before training. They say they can do a more efficient work-out with it.
Usually for ED, dose is much lower than for bodybuilding.

Actually I found an article on how L-Arginine works:

Like the drug sildenafil citrate (Viagra), L-arginine is thought to enhance the action of nitric oxide and—in turn—relax the muscles surrounding blood vessels supplying the penis. As a result, blood vessels in the penis dilate, increasing blood flow, which may help maintain an erection. The difference in how they work is that Viagra blocks an enzyme called PDE5, which destroys nitric oxide, and L-arginine is used to make nitric oxide. Unlike Viagra, L-arginine is taken on a daily basis for erectile dysfunction.

here the whole article:
http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/herbsvitaminsad/a/Arginine.htm
Luc

[james1947]

I will add one thing I have learned from George:

In NORMAL situations, Arginine relaxes blood vessels and increases circulation, but for people with any amount of insulin resistance, Arginine metabolic pathways can be compromised, and the actual effect can be a reduction of blood circulation rather than in increase.  That is why I use Arginine enhancement supplements like Cnidium Monnieri and L-Norvaline instead of Arginine.

I believe that L-Arginine works for ED because it is enhancing blood circulation.

James

[goodluck]

The more I have read and studied over the past few months I tend to agree with Comeback Kids comments about you don't need to supplement with omega 6's and 9's.

You get plenty from meat, nuts and seeds.  Olive oil is high in 9's.  most other vegtable oils are high in 6's.  Many holistic nutritionist are now saying to avoid vegtable oils.  They are too high in 6's which are inflamatory. They are also the source of many trans fats.  Most Beef in the SAD has a very high omega 6:3 ratio which is not desirable. I have heard as high as 20:1. If you get your beef from grass fed  or pastured cows (as opposed to cattle fed engineered grains) the ratio is much healthier, more around 3:1.

Check out the Weston Price Foundation for more researched based info on this topic.

[JamesW]

My urologist has me on Pentox 400mg (3x/day), Cialis 5mg (1x/day) and L-Arginine, but I didn't get a specific amount to take.  I have 500mg capsules, and I've been taking two a day.  Is that enough? I'm also not currently taking the Cialis, because it seems to cause very firm erections VERY easily and at inappropriate times.  I don't have ED, and I get frequent erections without Cialis.  What is the main purpose of the Cialis in the treatment of Peyronies Disease?  How does it help with Peyronies Disease for patients without ED?

I'm also on Vitamin D, for a deficiency in that. Any other vitamins or herbs recommended?  I'm trying to heal this bad boy.  I'm only age 37 and feel I should use my age and healing ability while I still have it at a younger age, despite being afflicted with this so young.

Thanks guys!

James

[james1947]

L-Arginine is taken by body builders up to 5000mg per day.
For Peyronies any number between 1000mg to 2000mg will do the job.
I am taking 2000mg in the evening before dinner around 5:30 PM

Regarding low dose Cialis, suppose to help nocturnal and morning erections, but also to soften the scar tissue.
I am proposing you to reduce the daily intake to 2.5mg (cut the 5mg in two) and see the results

To improve blood circulation I am taking Ubiquinol 2*100mg per day but because of your age bellow 40, you may take CoQ10 that is much cheapper.

James

[LauRenT]

Hello

In my case i take 2 grams of L-Arginine 2 hours before bed.
I don't take cialis, but i add with L-Arginine 80mg of Pycnogenol and i can say since i added pycnogenol i saw a real change with noctural erections.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12851125

I recommend you to add vitamin k2 with your vitamin D. Very good against the calcium deposit on soft tissues.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/03/26/the-delicate-dance-between-vitamins-d-and-k.aspx

Laurent

[swolf]

I've taken various amounts at various times of the day but recently I've been taking 2 grams (I use 2 of the 1000mg Puritans Pride tablets) of L-Arginine along with 60mg of Pycnogenol (I read somewhere to take about 50mg and what I ended up buying was in 30mg form, so I take two of those) right before I go to sleep at night, and that has worked very well for me. I think as long as I continue taking L-Arginine to specifically treat Peyronie's I will use that schedule.

Also, I've had trouble with cold sores in the past, so I try to offset the Arginine with Lysine. I haven't settled on the right amount of that to take every day though.

[Hawk]

Here is a product I ran across at GNC.  http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2651528 Has anyone tried this or have any info on it.  It is clearly pricey.  I use plain L-argentine but am looking for something a little better since San Vasoflow is no longer available.

[Hawk]

Here is a product I ran across at GNC.  http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2651528 Has anyone tried this or have any info on it.  It is clearly pricey.  I use plain L-argentine but am looking for something a little better since San Vasoflow is no longer available.

[swolf]

Here is a product I ran across at GNC.  http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2651528 Has anyone tried this or have any info on it.  It is clearly pricey.

It is much cheaper on Amazon. $51.43 for 300 caps versus $84.99 ($67.99 with "Gold Card") for 180 caps at GNC.

[Hawk]

Swolf,  Thanks for the info.  I ordered from Amazon.   I never considered GNC great or price but I am shocked that even their gold card price was beaten that badly.

PS: I also ordered some White Blood from Bodybuilder.com to compare products.

[justo]

Hi Guys....Has anyone tried AAKG? Its L arginine but supported with Alpha Keto Glutarate

Im having a real hard time finding the normal L-arginine here in Italy and this is what my local Gym highly recommends. Its made in Eastern Europe though and right away my alarm signals went off. I researched the product and company online and it seems to be legit...however its scary to take stuff from eastern Europe. Any experiences with this?

I read on this forum that sugar is really bad for peyronies and this stuff well....it seems to rase the blood sugar levels.
Please let me know anyone.
Thanks
J

[james1947]

Justo

Personally I will not advice you to use the AAKG. The body builders are using many supplements containing sugar because the extra energy bust they get (for short time) and is really not the best for no one, not just for Peyronies sufferers.
Regarding products from Eastern Europe, very much depends on the country and if it was approved to use in Italy by some governmental organization like the FDA in the US.

James

[justo]

Yeah i thought so.....I dont know why i let this guy talk me into it. Desperation i guess. I tried one actually and it worked fine. Nothing horrible happened and my nocternal eractions were strong! But in the long term this sugar crap....probably no good.  

[james1947]

Justo

After reading that it helps you, maybe you can take it if:

1. You are monitoring periodically your blood sugar not to be higher than let say bellow 100 as George say or not much higher.
2. Reduce as much as you can any additional sugar intake.

James

[JamesW]

Sometimes the Cialis for me causes a lot of discomfort (not really peyronie's pain, but instead very hard, unnatural feeling erections and not always at appropriate times... e.g. a slight touch from urinating setting off the launch sequence and having to wait in the bathroom for it to subside or attempt to walk around like that, which isn't easy), so I backed off to 1/2 a pill (5mg/2 = 2.5mg) every 1 or 2 days instead of 5mg daily.  Sometimes I skip it for a few days, other times I feel like it's good and I do like that it exercises the penis tissue with erections while sleeping.  

I often find that getting an erection helps the pain.  I have a varying, but often tremendous amount of flaccid pain that is minimized greatly with erection.  The only time I have pain during sex is if I'm not careful or manual hand stimulation that's too rough.

I've had VERY strong flaccid pain for the past 48 hours and there's no rhyme or reason to it.  I am praying the Pentiox/L-Arg/Cialis will help my body to heal and stop this pain.  If the curvature can stay where it is now and get no worse and the pain will go away, I will get on my knees and thank God for his generosity with me.  I just want to be able to enjoy sex with my wife and also not be in pain all day long.  I cannot think for 5 minutes without thinking about the pain on days when it hurts.  I think penis pain has to be one of the worst you can have.  I know there are worse and people in worse condition, but the psychological effects of this are bad.