SUPLEMENTS - Arginine, Carnitine, Citrulline, Omega 3 Fish Oil & Others

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

BrooksBro

I took the whole 2 grams about 1-hour before breakfast this morning.  By noon, my urine weakly smelled like after eating asparagus, and it was brighter yellow than normal.  When I am awake, I eat a small meal about every 3-hours, so the only time my stomach is empty is upon waking.

Fred22

Quote from: BrooksBro on May 20, 2010, 07:39:33 PM
I took the whole 2 grams about 1-hour before breakfast this morning.  By noon, my urine weakly smelled like after eating asparagus, and it was brighter yellow than normal.  When I am awake, I eat a small meal about every 3-hours, so the only time my stomach is empty is upon waking.

Most sources say to take in divided doses.  I wonder if it's just as effective to take the whole 2g at once.  I've been Googling "how long after meals is stomach empty" and although there are various opinions (as always on the internet) the general consensus is between 2 and 3 hours.  One dr. said if a med indicates to take on an empty stomach, 2 hours after a meal is fine.  I suppose that would depend on the size of the meal and what you had.  For example, a steak would take more time to digest that a bowl of cereal with fruit.  I finished breakfast today about 7:50 and plan to take my first dose ALC at 10:30, then lunch at 12 (finish about 12:30) and 2nd dose of ALC at 3 or 4.  I've read some articles that recommend not taking it after 3 PM as it could interfere with sleep, but I haven't noticed any stimulating effect.  I took my last dose a 3 PM yesterday, went to bed about 9:30 and slept pretty normally for me.  However, I do take Remeron, an antidepressant which has a sedative effect and 5 mg valium 30 min. to an hour before bedtime.  If anyone else has information regarding correct dosing method of ALC please post.

Fred

Fred22

I'm confused regarding the recommended dosage.  The study involving 48 men conducted at Swedish Medical Center says the dosage was 1g per day.  However, in another article which cites this study it stated that the dosage was 1g 2x per day.  This was the study which compared tomoxifen with ALCAR.  There is also an Italian study comparing ALCAR and tamoxifen in which the dosage was said to be 2g per day.  I've been taking 2, but if 1g is as effective then I prefer taking the smaller dose.  George says 2g is common but I just read Panic's post below and he says 4 to 6g per day. If I'm going to take this stuff I want to take it in the recommended amounts and at the proper time of day (between meals or with).  Does anyone have definitive info on this?  From what I've read the consensus seems to be 1g 2x per day between meals (I just checked with my pharmacist and she says "between meals" or "on an empty stomach" means 2 hours after a meal). BTW, where is everybody??

Fred

BrooksBro

With the recent suggestions, I am now trying ALC 1g twice daily.  First with my morning coffee, about 1 hour before breakfast.  Again in mid-afternoon, about 2-hours after lunch.  

This article was one of my sources:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2005/oct2005_cover_arteries_02.htm

PLC and Male Sexual Dysfunction
In a study of male sexual dysfunction, testosterone supplementation was compared to supplementation with a combination of oral PLC and acetyl-L-carnitine. Both the carnitine combination and testosterone improved the following penile functions: peak systolic velocity, end-diastolic velocity, resistive index, nocturnal penile tumescence, and the International Index of Erectile Function score.

The combination of 2 grams each of PLC and acetyl-L-carnitine daily was more effective than testosterone at improving nocturnal penile tumescence and the International Index of Erectile Function score, an important measure of erectile and sexual function. PLC and acetyl-L-carnitine thus appear to be safe, effective agents for managing male sexual dysfunction.

Here is the study it references, comparing 2 g PLC plus 2 g ALC daily to testosterone, and a placebo control group:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15072869

RESULTS: Testosterone and carnitines significantly improved the peak systolic velocity, end-diastolic velocity, resistive index, nocturnal penile tumescence, International Index of Erectile Function score, Depression Melancholia Scale score, and fatigue scale score. Carnitines proved significantly more active than testosterone in improving nocturnal penile tumescence and International Index of Erectile Function score. Testosterone significantly increased the prostate volume and free and total testosterone levels and significantly lowered serum luteinizing hormone; carnitines did not. No drug significantly modified prostate-specific antigen or prolactin.


I cannot find the reference that encouraged me to take 2 g ALC and 800 mg ALA daily.  I just started with NSI brand ALA (200 mg) and ALC (500 mg) tablets.  It was the only tablet I found in the 500mg & 200mg ratio.  

I am unsure which supplement is the cause (I also resumed 250 mg slow release niacin 4x daily this week), but my heart rate was lower than normal during my Saturday morning run.  At my usual running pace on a common route, my heart rate was about 5% lower.  I will be happy if that is repeatable.

Otherwise, I have yet to notice any other effects, good or bad, from taking these supplements.

Although I cannot quantify it, this week I observed what I believe is some slight softening of my plaque.  Even lightly squeezing it in one direction used to result in pain, and now it does not.  That is encouraging.  I cannot yet tell if there is any observable reduction in curvature.





 

Fred22

Sounds like a good plan.  Please keep posting results and so will I.  

Fred

newguy

s&s - I ordered the 30mg option that you linked to as all is all it seems like the best choice. I think I'll take a tablet in the morning and at night, so that it's in my system pretty much all of the time. I do have some powdered arginine, but ordered some l-arginine +  l-citrulline combined tablets.  

Fred22

Has anyone taking ALCAR noticed an increase in very vivid dreams?  I have had weird dreams since starting the ALCAR, but could just be a coincidence.

Fred

ohno

I have never remembered my dreams upon waking till I started with my whole regimen of peyronie's supplements. I'm sure all dreams are weird but now I remember them. Really strange stuff.

BrooksBro

Taking ALC has not produced these for me.  

When I first started on 50 mg topical testosterone, and oral quecertin, I remembered dreaming (a rare event for me).  I stopped taking the querecetin because it seemed to increase BPH.  Since then, a one-time trial of a double dose of testosterone resulted in dreams, and I even slept until my alarm went off.  My new prescription is for 100 mg per day, starting today.  I am curious to see if the dreams return.  

slowandsteady

There are other forms of carnitine besides acetyl-l-carnitine. One of the is carnitine fumarate. I've been on ALC for years without any great impact on my Peyronies Disease. After a couple of days at 1g/2x daily, I'm finding carnitine fumarate seems to sooth Peyronies Disease symptoms for me more than ALC. I'm gong to give it a try for a few weeks and see if there is anything noteworthy.

George999

Quote from: slowandsteady on May 29, 2010, 02:17:02 AM
There are other forms of carnitine besides acetyl-l-carnitine. One of the is carnitine fumarate. I've been on ALC for years without any great impact on my Peyronies Disease. After a couple of days at 1g/2x daily, I'm finding carnitine fumarate seems to sooth Peyronies Disease symptoms for me more than ALC. I'm gong to give it a try for a few weeks and see if there is anything noteworthy.

Very interesting!  Keep us updated on this please.  - George

Fred22

Quote from: slowandsteady on May 29, 2010, 02:17:02 AM
There are other forms of carnitine besides acetyl-l-carnitine. One of the is carnitine fumarate. I've been on ALC for years without any great impact on my Peyronies Disease. After a couple of days at 1g/2x daily, I'm finding carnitine fumarate seems to sooth Peyronies Disease symptoms for me more than ALC. I'm gong to give it a try for a few weeks and see if there is anything noteworthy.

Please disregard this post. I got your answer by PM. Thanks

Fred

Fred22

Quote from: slowandsteady on May 29, 2010, 02:17:02 AM
There are other forms of carnitine besides acetyl-l-carnitine. One of the is carnitine fumarate. I've been on ALC for years without any great impact on my Peyronies Disease. After a couple of days at 1g/2x daily, I'm finding carnitine fumarate seems to sooth Peyronies Disease symptoms for me more than ALC. I'm gong to give it a try for a few weeks and see if there is anything noteworthy.

S&S,

In what way did it "soothe" your symptoms?  Could you be more specific?  Thanks.

Fred

slowandsteady

Quote from: Fred22 on June 03, 2010, 02:43:39 PM
S&S,

In what way did it "soothe" your symptoms?  Could you be more specific?  Thanks.

Fred
Just less discomfort during the day. Now that I think about it I have also started taking 800 mg/day in magnesium glycinate lately, which could have been confounding things.

Fred22

Quote from: slowandsteady on June 03, 2010, 04:11:54 PM
Quote from: Fred22 on June 03, 2010, 02:43:39 PM
S&S,

In what way did it "soothe" your symptoms?  Could you be more specific?  Thanks.

Fred
Just less discomfort during the day. Now that I think about it I have also started taking 800 mg/day in magnesium glycinate lately, which could have been confounding things.

You mean it might be the magnesium that is responsible for your improvement rather than the new form of carnitine?

slowandsteady

Quote from: Fred22 on June 04, 2010, 12:03:13 PMYou mean it might be the magnesium that is responsible for your improvement rather than the new form of carnitine?

Yep. I'm still a bit amazed by how many features of Peyronies Disease can be explained by magnesium deficiency, as I wrote here.

NamelessHero

Arginine alphaketoglutarate - is this any different than L-Arginine for the treatment of Peyronie's? I just took 5 grams and I am headed off to bed, but then I read this on Wikipedia. "A test tube study found that AAKG induces a significant increase in growth of human fibroblasts–cells with similarities to muscle fiber cells. This effect was dose-dependent, meaning that a more pronounced growth effect was noted with increasing levels of AAKG (but not with increasing levels of Arginine or alpha-ketoglutarate alone)."

Are these fibroblasts bad for Peyronie's, or do I have my concepts confused? Do I have the right powder, or do I need to get just l-arginine?  

Tim468

Not sure why you tried something that has not been tried before by others (or has it?).

If you get sick or worse, please let us know!

Tim
52, Peyronies Disease for 30 years, upward curve and some new lesions.

George999

Tim,  It has been used by people here and there are posts relating to it if you search for them.  To me, its just another form of Arginine.  This whole issue of Arginine supporting tissue growth has been discussed here at length on multiple occasions.  At this point I am not using Arginine any more for various reasons.  But I think the whole tissue growth/collagen thing is a canard.  Peyronie's is not caused by excessive "collagen" or "tissue growth" but rather by inappropriate collagen/tissue growth.  There is a huge difference.  And I see no evidence that Arginine induces inappropriate tissue growth.  Other than that, Arginine may cause negative side effects in some individuals just like other drugs or supplements.  - George


George999

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16626982

Actually, there are pomegranate supplements out there that allow you to bypass the sugars.

And by the way, you might want to try it, its pretty awesomely effective, at least for me.

Fred22

Since starting ALC I seem to be getting more morning erections (daily).  Is this a normal effect of ALC?  I know erections possibly help to improve Peyronie's symptoms, but my erections are painful (even after 4+ years of having this condition).  However, if this may result in improvement (pain reduction) somewhere down the road, I'm willing to continue with the ALC.

YoungOne

What is the consensus on taking ALCAR and L-Arginine at the same time? I've heard not to take L family amino acids together because they fight for the same neurons or something like that...don't quote me on that.  Anyways, are you guys generally picking between arginine and ALCAR or taking both?

Rickmud

Quote from: YoungOne on September 06, 2010, 10:28:26 PM
What is the consensus on taking ALCAR and L-Arginine at the same time? I've heard not to take L family amino acids together because they fight for the same neurons or something like that...don't quote me on that.  Anyways, are you guys generally picking between arginine and ALCAR or taking both?

I've been taking both, it took several months for them to kick in. I don't know what the consensus is though.

SSmithe

Just an update, I have been using gPLC in place of L-Arginine for about a month now.  For what its worth, I find that it promotes noticeably more blood flow than L-Arginine does.  It really me helps counteract the firm/flaccid state.
SSmithe
32 years old.  Peyronies since 22. Stabilized peyronies plaque.  ED.  Trying to stay positive.

crashbandit

I'm very interested in taking ALC for the extra blood flow and mental boost. But I'm worried it might interfere with my prolotherapy injections. Basically I can't take any anti-inflammatories because I want max inflammation from my prolo shots.

Is ALC an anti-inflammatory?
Cheers

crashbandit

Nice, a nice big pump package always gives me a nice warm fuzzy feeling. I'm thinking about ALC, is this the same thing? Or are they completely different.... There's so many different variations of the same supplement it seems. Are you taking ALA with this as well?
Cheers

newguy

It's always good to hear positive reports, and also good to see (from your sig) that you're taking the PAV cocktail.  

newguy

If there's one supplement I've been a bit lax with it's acetyl-l-carnitine. Sometimes I take it, sometimes I skip it for weeks. I've never really been able to make my mind up as to whether or not it helps me. Of late though, I have got more into exercise (cardio and weights), so I figure it may be useful on that front too, so I've included it again on a daily basis. I'm going to start jotting down the supplements I'm to take each day and when, as beyond a point it starts to get difficult to keep track (not as though I'm taking that many supplements really).

crashbandit

Newguy - You didn't notice anything from taking the ALC? According to these reviews from iherb.com, there's alot of happy customers. I wonder if these reviews are legit though...

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Acetyl-L-Carnitine-3-oz-85-g/373?at=1
Cheers

SSmithe

I actually stopped the nightly 1/4 Viagra portion of the PAV cocktail about a month ago.  Continuing with the Pentox though.

Yes I am taking ALC as well, but no it is not the same as the gPLC.  Similar names, and I have no idea about the technical difference, but the gPLC says it is used to "support arterial blood flow."  I take it as soon as I wake on an empty stomach and can definitely feel more blood down there for half the day or so.
32 years old.  Peyronies since 22. Stabilized peyronies plaque.  ED.  Trying to stay positive.

crashbandit

Quote from: SSmithe on September 21, 2010, 10:03:03 PM
Just an update, I have been using gPLC in place of L-Arginine for about a month now.  For what its worth, I find that it promotes noticeably more blood flow than L-Arginine does.  It really me helps counteract the firm/flaccid state.
SSmithe

Where you getting your supply from SS? How much you taking?
Cheers

SSmithe

Crashbandit,
Been taking 1 or 2 a day.  That is all I really need. I got it from Vitacost.com.  I have been using the Jarrow Formulas brand.  Only one I have tried...
32 years old.  Peyronies since 22. Stabilized peyronies plaque.  ED.  Trying to stay positive.

crashbandit

Cheers

Fred22

Quote from: newguy on September 24, 2010, 11:34:51 PM
If there's one supplement I've been a bit lax with it's acetyl-l-carnitine. Sometimes I take it, sometimes I skip it for weeks. I've never really been able to make my mind up as to whether or not it helps me. Of late though, I have got more into exercise (cardio and weights), so I figure it may be useful on that front too, so I've included it again on a daily basis. I'm going to start jotting down the supplements I'm to take each day and when, as beyond a point it starts to get difficult to keep track (not as though I'm taking that many supplements really).

Since I started taking ALC I've been getting daily early AM erections.  May be just a coincidence but nevertheless it's happening....Fred

newguy

Quote from: crashbandit on September 25, 2010, 12:34:46 AM
Newguy - You didn't notice anything from taking the ALC? According to these reviews from iherb.com, there's alot of happy customers. I wonder if these reviews are legit though...

http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Acetyl-L-Carnitine-3-oz-85-g/373?at=1

I have no reason to disbelieve such reports. There may be an element of placebo effect to how people initially feel when they take something, but there are no doubt benefits to acetyl-l-carntine. I don't tend to 'feel' supplements as much as most people, with the exception of niacin (the flush variety) which is hard not to notice :). Possibly resveratrol when I took it too. It made me feel energetic.

BrooksBro

I never could tolerate the weird feeling of standard niacin, not even taking aspirin before hand.  I easily tolerate the time release OTC variety.  I have read physicians who have written the flush-free is ineffective in achieving the desired results: "no flush, no effect."  I take 250 mg w/ breakfast and lunch, and 2 with my last meal of the day.  It was the only thing to boost my low HDL.  W/O it, I am in upper 20s.  With it, I approach 50.

Quote from: newguy on September 29, 2010, 03:47:16 PM
with the exception of niacin (the flush variety) which is hard not to notice :).

gecko

On the thread on L-arginine they were discussing this combo. I am going to have my husband start on this combo. I have taken pycnogenol on & off for many years. It has helped my bursitis. I in the past used it faithfully. I actually have some on hand. I used to distribute it through Kaire & made enough to pay for my supply. I currently use the product by flavay it is the same product & much cheaper. I learned of it from another friend that takes it also. It can be purchased @ www.flavay.com

getbiguk

Im currently looking to straigten/increase penis and read that acl and pcl are good to take.

Should I take both and how do they interact with hmg, hcg, zma arginine and other products as i am looking to raise testosterone too.

Thanks.

Must add im looking to reduce ma nboobs and fat loss by taking hot roxx supplement, fibre, and dim, rezv etc.

getbiguk

anybody can help?  especially on the plc vs alc?  

newguy

I think you'd be fine with ALC, rather than both. I'm not aware of any interactions, but obviously the more supplements you take the greater scope there is for interactions of one kind or another. Side effects from supplements haven't been a big issue of the forum as far as I know, but I do try to keep my treatment to a 'core' nowadays (pentox, coq10, vid d etc).

getbiguk

Ok thanks.

I asked because i read somewhere here that plc or gplc is better for the penis?

Also do u need to do exercises for these upplements to work? I try stretching manually but my penis has no give.

Also whats this pentox stuff everybody is rraving about

Worried Guy

Does anyone believe ALC has any benefit as i'm going to consider dropping it after my current batch runs out?

George999

There is an Italian study showing ALC to be beneficial and I personally found it very beneficial.  Like other oral treatments, it doesn't work for everybody.  But I am convinced that it works for a lot of guys.  It is not as effective as Pentox or CoQ10 though.  - George

crashbandit

If you don't think it's helping, I'd drop it. It's fairly expensive too. If after you drop it and notice more pain, then you an always jump back on it. Thats how I test to see it something is working. I was on a boat load of treatments but have cut it down to the best I find that works.

I take pentox, ubiquinol and krill oil, all 2x daily, sometimes all these 3x daily, all together with a big meal at breakfast, sometimes lunch and supper. I hate it when my treatments feel like work, so I keep it simple and easy to manage, because it's an everyday thing.
Cheers

skunkworks

Quote from: George999 on March 04, 2011, 09:18:51 PM
There is an Italian study showing ALC to be beneficial and I personally found it very beneficial.  Like other oral treatments, it doesn't work for everybody.  But I am convinced that it works for a lot of guys.  It is not as effective as Pentox or CoQ10 though.  - George

Do you have any studies on CoQ10 and Peyronies?
This is an emotionally destructive condition, we all have it, let's be nice to each other.

Review of current treatment options by Levine and Sherer]

George999

Check your email.  - George

getbiguk

The reason why I ask is because I read this somewhere in the congenital curve thread.

Propionyl-L-Carnitine (PLC) This is very hard to find. But is the ONE supplement (aside from HGW) that truly does help. I used it after first reading about it tests in a medical journal. You'll see many, many people here talking about Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALC), but ALC does virtually NOTHING compared to PLC to bring blood into the penis, which is what is needed. ALC will sharpen your mind and make you think more clearly (it's used for Alzheimer's patients and as a general supplement) but brings very little, if any, blood into the penis. PLC on the other hand, relaxes smooth muscle (e.g. muscle in your penis) and brings blood into it (I took 2g PLC daily, that is what was used in the study as well.) It brings blood into the penis even while flaccid so well that you will even feel a different 'hang' (more blood, heavier, bigger in flaccid state). THE NET EFFECT is that the blood sitting around and softening the scar tissue throughout the day, has a significant effect at making it more pliable. Then during erection, improvement in curvature can be seen. Not entirely at all, but enough to be hopeful and know PLC works. (For me, ~20-30 degree improvement, on a 90 banana-shaped curvature. Sorry for the graphic detail) Like a lot of things, this only works while you take it. And as a broke student, I ended up having to quit it b/c I couldn't afford an extra $30/month. (PLC is VERY hard to find. I found some at bulknutrition.com and capped it myself into 500mg capsules). Last, I looked, I haven't been able to find it. There is a new product called gPLC that I haven't tried yet, but may be worth a short. (gPLC is marketed to those with heart issues, as the heart is smooth muscle, just like the penis is as well. So you can see why it would work. Again, it works while you take it, but doesn't cure it and curvature will be back to normal when it is stopped. (Long term, I suspect that over many years this could permanently help curvature b/c it helps stretching into a longer state and over years (5-10+) cumulative effects would probably build up positively, I don't doubt.) Anyhow, PLC is great stuff.


So what is bettter plc or alc?

getbiguk


George999

ONLY Acetyl L Carnitine has a research study demonstrating its effectiveness.  That study is here -> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410x.2001.02241.x/full.  If you know of a study involving PLC alone I would love to see it but I don't believe one exists.  There is nothing wrong with trying PLC or gPLC.  In my own case I used ALC very effectively and found gPLC useless, but that is just my own experience.  The best place to start is really with those things that have research evidence behind them, not with what doctors *think* might work or what we *think* might work.  Granted there is a study showing PLC to be effective IN COMBINATION with Verapamil which would lend credibility to benefit from PLC.  That study is here -> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410X.2002.02738.x/full.  The BEST studies indicate the Pentoxifylline and CoQ10 are the best treatments.  My personal experience substantiates that research.  - George