Open Questions on Peyronies Disease (That won't fit under any of our current topics)

[AR]

Hi newguy:  Urologists open to our ideas or suggestions.. I don't think so...  Most of the guys on this site know more about Peyronies Disease than most Uros!  We do however have a great Pediatrician on board.
Best,  AR

[tommarkey]

AR is correct! I'm frustrated with my urologists... They don't give importance to you, just more a case to him....
Most of people here know more about Peyronies Disease than several urologists... And here you will find more attention! Be yourself the urologist (in the felt that you have to search for the several trataments)

[trussin]

I hope I'm not breaking protocol by jumping to this forum from the new member forum.

I met with a new urologist today, and my experience left me feeling much better than the first dismissive doctor that diagnosed me with little more than a "Yep, that's Peyronie's" and a prescription for potaba and vit e.  The new doctor is in his mid 30's, I'd guess, and offered quite a bit of information (much of which I'd already researched).  At this point, I have a relatively small lump with no "bend".  The doc mentioned Levine and the associated injections (for which I see there is a separate forum).  He stated we could start them immediately and that they are most effective within the first 6 months of Peyronies Disease.  However, since I only noticed my lump a month ago, he stated that I have some time still to see where this leads.  He was unfamiliar with Pentox, but seemed interested in researching its use after I asked if he would prescribe it once I've finished my $370 supply of potaba.

After VERY briefly reading of the verapisil forum, I'm not convinced that the injections are the best course (I still have a lot of reading to do, though).  BUT, I am pleased to say I feel like I have a doctor that I can work with long term.

Tommarkey - where do you live in Brasil?  Minha esposa e brasileira.

[Iceman]

trussin: get on the pentox - I saw the top uro and thts what hes recommending -  

[ocelot556]

Arg. I've got my first official dent. It formed in between the largest lump of plaque (the little bast--d causing the bend) and a fine line (someone likened it to piano wire) running along the top of my little fella. I've heard people make mention of dents - are they worse than lumps? I would think they are fibrosis headed in, not out, and be worried if I followed logic. But logic doesn't seem to have much to do with this problem.

[Iceman]

ocelot - have you ever used pentox??

[ocelot556]

I really want a prescription. Two problems: 1. I don't get health insurance until the 25th of this month. and 2. My last appt. with my urologist, last week, I mentioned "Have you ever heard of pentox?" he hadn't. "How about trental?" -- he said "Oh, trental? That's a heart medicine. It's a vasodilator?" he seemed only half certain about that last bit. He's a great guy, but I'll be doctor shopping until I can find a uro who can give me pentox and a VED prescription - but I have to wait for insurance to do so.

[jackp]

ocolet556
Sometimes we over look our best doctors. I am having trouble keeping my testesterone level up to where it should be. The two (2) uro's I had seen about it would not give me an injection enough to bring it up to where it should be.
Right after the failed implant I was talking with my regular doctor and brough up my T problem. He said Jack I can help you with that and do the blood work.
The blood work came in very low 120 where the lowest on the scale was 250 and that was 3 weeks after a shot.
He recommended 600mg of T every three weeks. It takes two (2) shots to get that much at one time. I said Dr. B can we do 300mg every 10 days. He said sure just as long as you get 600mg over the three weeks.
I feel much better. Just had blood work again 5/2 and got a copy yesterday. T is still low 461 in a range of 250-1100.  He wants to increase the dosage and I am in the process of making an appointment to discuss what to do.
All this to say. A good relationship with a Primary Care Doctor can get you better treatment than some specialist. I even asked once to do a test on my blood work that I had been researching. I asked was he familiar with it. He said, No, but you are lets find out what it is. Great guy and willing to work with me.
My $0.02
Jackp

[headinthesky]

I've had this problem for as long as I can remember, I'm 22. Painful erections, etc. Went today, had a doppler done, first thing was getting surgury. No thanks, I have an appointment with another doctor next week for a second opinion.

Reading through the forum though, some good stuff.
The doctor wasn't very helpful though, I'm in the Buffalo NY area, trying to find someone.
He said something about a blood vessel constriction at the base?
And about "scar tissue" which needs to be cut out (he didn't mention plaque). He injected something so give an erection, but it wasn't very hard or solid, after 20 minutes. I was there for almost an hour; the doctor walked out to get a "second opinion", that doctor came in and said it would need surgery. I'm not a fan of surgery, esp after a failed one last year for something else. It's a downward curve of about 40 degrees maybe. I don't mind the curve, it's the pain and "ED" which is the main problem for me.

I think I'm gonna try the l-argenine. But fantastic discussion, I'm glad I found this place.

[newguy]

Have you tried viagra? That could really help out with the ED. of course, the pain may still be a problem though. Do any of you guys have any suggestions for medications that could help out with the pain? I think the doctors manner; injecting you to get an erection + suggesting surgery, is certainly a bit hasty, if you haven't exhausted all other options first.

Oh and welcome to the froum .

I've had this problem for as long as I can remember, I'm 22. Painful erections, etc. Went today, had a doppler done, first thing was getting surgury. No thanks, I have an appointment with another doctor next week for a second opinion.

Reading through the forum though, some good stuff.
The doctor wasn't very helpful though, I'm in the Buffalo NY area, trying to find someone.
He said something about a blood vessel constriction at the base?
And about "scar tissue" which needs to be cut out (he didn't mention plaque). He injected something so give an erection, but it wasn't very hard or solid, after 20 minutes. I was there for almost an hour; the doctor walked out to get a "second opinion", that doctor came in and said it would need surgery. I'm not a fan of surgery, esp after a failed one last year for something else. It's a downward curve of about 40 degrees maybe. I don't mind the curve, it's the pain and "ED" which is the main problem for me.

I think I'm gonna try the l-argenine. But fantastic discussion, I'm glad I found this place.

[headinthesky]

Have you tried viagra? That could really help out with the ED. of course, the pain may still be a problem though. Do any of you guys have any suggestions for medications that could help out with the pain? I think the doctors manner; injecting you to get an erection + suggesting surgery, is certainly a bit hasty, if you haven't exhausted all other options first.

Oh and welcome to the froum

Hey thanks  

I'm going to another dr next week, hopefully he might be more thorough. I wasn't too impressed with his demeanor, when I first met him (last week) he sorta just stood around fumbling and talking. Today after the dopler, they were getting ready to schedule it - I said hey guys, let me call you back. They weren't very clear on details about the doppler either.

I'll bring viagra up with the other Dr. It's not full on ED, sorta semi-flaccid. But enough stimulation it's does go up, but it has to be continuous stimulation. They gave me a pill bricanyl (which was weird, it's mainly for bronchoconstriction?), but that was to get rid of the erection if it was still there for more than 4 ho urs. I wasn't really erect, but it was pretty painful so I took it, went away. Well I have that now to bring up next week with the other doctor. I'm making a list of stuff today from the forum, real good. But I think I'll order some of the horny goat weed and the VitE and L-argenine. Thinking about a traction or VED device but not sure.

I have a feeling if it increase blood flow, that will help. As evidenced by cold fingers, I get poor blood flow at times.

[headinthesky]

Ignore this, sorry.
I'm looking at the posts backwards apparently  

[newguy]

headinthesky - In relation to your 'cold fingers' comment, does this apply to your toes too? Basically all of your extremities. My mother suffers from Raynaud's disease in that her extremities go numb at temperatures where other peoples wouldn't. This has happened to me too, especially with my toes, but I tend to exercise so much nowadays that I think it's had a positive impact on my vascular system. I'm not trying to claim some kind of peyronie's link here, but everything is our history is worth mentoning, and your comment spiked my interest. In any case, drugs that improve circulation will likely benefit you.

[headinthesky]

headinthesky - In relation to your 'cold fingers' comment, does this apply to your toes too? Basically all of your extremities. My mother suffers from Raynaud's disease in that her extremities go numb at temperatures where other peoples wouldn't. This has happened to me too, especially with my toes, but I tend to exercise so much nowadays that I think it's had a positive impact on my vascular system. I'm not trying to claim some kind of peyronie's link here, but everything is our history is worth mentoning, and your comment spiked my interest. In any case, drugs that improve circulation will likely benefit you.

During "normal" temps, no. But I live in cold, cold Buffalo, so winter I notice it more. It's more uncomfortable than anything, but in winter it's just dreadful, especially the toes. That's the only time I feel numbness.
I'm sure there's a link with ED and poor vascular circulation. I was reading other posts saying that frequent erections help with less fibrotic tissue forming, I'm sure that's due to the greater "forced" circulation.
I exercise quite a bit, several times a week (used to run track for 4 years), so its kinda sucks to see the ED kinda coming in.

[George999]

The vascular links with all forms of ED are so strong that many docs take a pretty close look at the hearts of their patients when they develop ED of any kind.  There are some pretty strong statistical links underlying the connection.  AND many, but not all, treatments for ED line up pretty closely with treatments for cardio-vascular issues.  - George

[headinthesky]

The vascular links with all forms of ED are so strong that many docs take a pretty close look at the hearts of their patients when they develop ED of any kind.  There are some pretty strong statistical links underlying the connection.  AND many, but not all, treatments for ED line up pretty closely with treatments for cardio-vascular issues.  - George

Yeah true. Viagra was actually supposed to be for cardiac issues...heh.

[jackp]

Viagra and heart issues.
12/06 I had taken a Levitra the night before and woke up at 5:00 in the morning with chest pains. Wife took me to the hospital and while in the ER they put nitro on my chest and within a short while I was all but out. Blood pressure dropped real low. Good thing the doctor and a nurse were standing by me when it happend.
If you have taken V, C, or L and are having chest pains let them know when you walk in the door. It may save your life.
Jackp

[tommarkey]

It dissapointing... In 21th century, with a high advanced medicine, we don't have a non-surgical solution to this disease , and the surgical has sequels...Our best alternatives are some dangerous (for someone!) heart drugs...I hope in the next 20 years it appears...

Tommarkey - where do you live in Brasil?  Minha esposa e brasileira.

Hi, I live in Curitiba, Paraná, in the south of Brasil... Probably she knows where is... Do you speak portuguese or just "Minha esposa e brasileira"?

[George999]

Once you start to look at the glycation model, and begin to orient therapy in that direction, a lot of the conflicts disappear.  Blocking and/or reversing glycation lowers fibrosis risk, lowers cardio-vascular risk in the process AND lowers cancer risk all at the same time.  That is the advantage of stuff like Pentox and ALC, and that is the promise of drugs like Alagebrium that are currently in the pipeline.  And of course, no one has EVER shortened their life expectancy with prudent diet and exercise choices.  Aside from that, there is no magic bullet drug or supplement that doesn't bring the risk of creating other problems.  For example, Testosterone is known to be beneficial for Peyronies but it brings Cancer risks among other things.  - George  

[jackp]

George999
Testesterone Replacement Therapy(TRT) DOES NOT CAUSE CANCER IN A NORMAL PROSTARE!!!
I do not know where you got your information, but you reminded me that when I was first diagnosed with Peronies I had low Testesterone and put on TRT.
When I started TRT over 12 years ago my PSA was .09 today it is 1.2 normal is 4 or less.
I have read articles where men that have had the prostate removed because of cancer can start TRT after a couple of years.
I get 400 mg of testesterone every 10 days and stay up on my exams and PSA every 6 months.
Your statement needs to be rephrased. IMHO
Jackp

[Tim468]

The latest and best review I read stated that testosterone does not increase cancer risks. It can accelerate prostate cancer when it is already present (I think) and folks used to think it could "trigger" "latent" (or previously undetectable) prostate cancer. The latter argument has been disproven, I believe.

Tim

[George999]

I said the use of Testosterone "brings Cancer risks".  We may be able to split some hairs on this, but it is not hard to verify that statement with some fairly authoritative sources, for example this one.  My whole point was NOT that such therapies should not be employed, it was rather that they do have risks, whether drug or supplement.  And hormones, while potentially very useful, are known to have some pretty exceptional risks.  So I stand by my statement at this point.  BUT, I want to also make very clear that the current state of medicine requires that we on occasion take risks.  And under professional medical supervision, risks are necessary and OK.  Regular testing is done to make sure there are no unintended side effects happening.  But I believe the Glycation pathway presents a world of treatment possibilities with far fewer risks and far more global benefits.  And that is the possibility I am looking forward to in the future AND the pathway I am already attempting to exploit to the maximum.  - George

[Old Man]

george:

Having had a radical retropubic prostatectomy and benefited from the ill after effects of that surgery, my take on testosterone is similar to yours. If a person has a high PSA number and is suspected or confirmed that cancer is present in the prostate, testosterone is removed from their medical regimen by whatever means is available, even to castration.

Have worked with several guys in our prostate cancer support group that did have their glands removed in order to control the cancer. They used the VED and did have at least some sexual pleasure that way. Prostate cancer is not one to play around with trying to build up one's libido by getting the shots, etc.

Just my take on the subject.

Old Man

[Tim468]

George:

Quoting your NEJM reference:

"Despite decades of research, there is no compelling evidence that testosterone has a causative role in prostate cancer", and "Thus, there appears to be no compelling evidence at present to suggest that men with higher testosterone levels are at greater risk of prostate cancer or that treating men who have hypogonadism with exogenous androgens increases this risk. In fact, it should be recognized that prostate cancer becomes more prevalent exactly at the time of a man's life when testosterone levels decline. "

Regarding cancer in general, there are no data at all.

Their main concern is the potential for "unmasking" a prostate cancer that is already there, which is why there are recommendations for closely following a PSA after starting testoserone therapy. This is not splitting hairs at all. Simply put, testosterone does not "bring cancer risks" and your own citation goes to lengths to point this out.

For someone who already has prostatic cancer, the use of testosterone is a whole other matter.

I hope that anti-glycation is as useful as you think it is, but replacement of hormones like testosterone that your body is supposed to be making, and stopped making, is not likely to occur by dietary changes.

Tim

[George999]

Tim,  The problem is that how many older men walk around with dormant prostate cancer?  From what I have read, dormant or extremely slow growing prostate cancer is fairly common among older men.  I consider that to be a significant risk factor.  I do not consider it to be a reason not to make use of TRT.  But it would be much better to be able to "fix" the problem upstream.  Certainly diet alone is not a solution (although diet is certainly a necessary part of the solution), but be able to aggressively attack preexisting systemic glycation which is the molecular root of many of these problems well might be.  The advantage of attacking glycation is that it has the effect of normalizing the whole body metabolism rather than just addressing one element in isolation.  In retrospect, I am sorry that I picked TRT as an example.  I could just have easily picked HGH or any number of other current approaches to treating disease states.  Someone just noted that even Maca carries a potential Cancer risk due to its ability to upregulate IGF-1.  There has just got to be a better way to treating disease and pre-metabolic syndrome/metabolic syndrome which is becoming absolutely so endemic in our society it is frightening.  So forgive me for being stubborn.  I did not intend to imply with the "risk factor" terminology that Testosterone causes cancer anymore than Estrogen causes breast cancer in women.  But they can indeed fuel preexisting cancers and that to me implies "cancer risk" although perhaps that is the wrong terminology.  - George

[Iceman]

george999:

ive read a thread from a guy whose had Peyronies Disease for the past 6 years and no improvement although its stabilised - how come these guys dont go on pentox? surely this would be a no brainer and make sense for them to try it...??

[newguy]

Iceman: I was under the impression that pentox works at its best during the active phase of the condition (in my view it's important to get on it directly after injury/diagnosis). If a persons condition has been completely stable for years, I would suggest that they may not be the very best candidate for pentox. However, it could still bring about some benefits, and prevent/limit any further damage that could present itself should the condition become inflamed through further injury or over-aggressive treatment (injections, further injuries). From the standpoint of throwing everything in our power at the condition,  I certainly wouldn't dissuade anyone from using it. Just my view.

[Ptolemy]

Is there any evidence that Peyronies is ever stable? Clearly not in my case. Month to month it appears stable but measurements that I make on an annual basis tell me it is still active. That is why I am taking Pentox even though I have a number of side effects from the drug.

[Iceman]

dammmm - i wish i would stabilize - the pain is really starting to piss me right off!!!!!!!!!!!!! - what i wouldnt give for 1 hour of just numbness

[newguy]

Ptolemy - I do think in some people, their peyronies reaches a stage I would categorise as stable, or non-changing. Of course you are right though, that for many their peyronies state is seemingly ever changing over the year of many years, which is not great for peace of mind. I would certainly class that as non-stable and think that you're wise to me taking pentox.

Iceman - As you were only diagnosed a few months back, at least you have the opportunity to get on top of this very early on. You really seem to be doing all you can in terms of oral treatments. In addition to your current regime, have you thought about taking ibuprofen for 2 - 3 weeks to try to help with the inflammation? I'm guessing you've probably already done that but thought I'd ask anyway. Also, have you started on the VED yet, or are you waiting until your pain reduces and/or a curve develops?  

[bodoo2u]

Wow, I didn't know that Maca could possibly contribute to prostate cancer. I purchased a couple of bottles of Horny Goat Weed in an effort to make me fuller in the flaccid state, and the HGW has Maca in it. Is it possible to buy HGW without the Maca included. All of the HGW I see has Maca, although I can find Maca without the HGW.

What's that all about, and how much of a risk of prostate cancer does Maca actually carry?

[George999]

Yes, Horny Goat Weed is available without Maca.  But I don't think you have subjected yourself to any significant risks.  I just was using Maca to point out the reality that most things carry some degree of risk.  I myself have been taking Maca, lots of it, for some amount of time now.  In fact, I think I was probably the one who introduced Maca on this forum originally.  I still have a significant supply of it which I will no doubt finish and I may even order more.  On the other hand, it is refreshing to be able to identify strategies that seem to carry less risk, and that is what I am attempting to do.  - George

[duenorth]

New to this forum, and i have just started taking the supplements--- l arginine, acetyl l carnitine, as well as a NOS, and also started taking petox 6 days ago.  Obviously, it is impossible to tell what effect this is having on my Peyronies, but I have noticed something else, and was wondering if anyone else had experienced something similar.  I have absolutely no untoward side effects from taking any of these things. What I have noticed though is an unexpected bonus--- my osteoarthritis symptoms are vastly improved.  This is so dramatic that it is almost unnerving. Normally i have pretty significant pain /stiffness  in a lot of joints, most notably my hands upon waking in the morning.   These symptoms are always worse when the weather is cold and damp, like it has been here all week. this The pain has lessened about 80%  Nothing in the PDR to indicate the reason for this--  although i suspect that improved microcirculation could not be a bad thing.  Anyway, just thought I would throw it out there-- see if anyone had any thoughts.  

[newguy]

Osteoarthritis is basically caused by low grade inflammation, so it's heartening that pentox has proved to have such a beneficial effect on it.

[George999]

Osteoarthritis is a Glycation driven disease.

Advanced glycation end products increases matrix metalloproteinase-1, -3, and -13, and TNF-alpha in human osteoarthritic chondrocytes.
Nah SS, Choi IY, Yoo B, Kim YG, Moon HB, Lee CK.

Division of Allergy and Rheumatology, Department of Internal Medicine, College of Medicine, University of Ulsan, Asan Medical Center, 388-1, Pungnap-dong, Songpa-gu, Seoul 138-736, Republic of Korea.

We investigated the effects of advanced glycation end products (AGE) which accumulate in articular cartilage with age in human osteoarthritic chondrocytes. We found AGE-BSA significantly increased MMP-1, -3, and -13, and TNF-alpha in a dose-dependent manner. AGE-BSA-stimulated JNK, p38, and ERK and NF-kappaB activity. The stimulatory effect of AGE-BSA on MMP-1, -3, and -13 were reversed by treatment with specific JNK, p38 inhibitors, suggesting JNK and p38 are involved in AGE-BSA-induced MMPs and TNF-alpha. We also observed that NF-kappaB is involved in AGE-BSA-induced TNF-alpha. Pretreatment with soluble receptor for AGE (sRAGE) also reduced AGE-stimulated MMPs and TNF-alpha, implicating the involvement of receptor for AGE (RAGE). In conclusion, accumulation of AGE may have a role in the development of osteoarthritis by increasing MMP-1, -3, and -13, and TNF-alpha.

PMID: 17434489 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Pentoxifylline is an Antiglycant and inhibitor of TNF-alpha.

Evidence that pioglitazone, metformin and pentoxifylline are inhibitors of glycation.
Rahbar S, Natarajan R, Yerneni K, Scott S, Gonzales N, Nadler JL.

Department of Diabetes, Endocrinology and Metabolism, The Leslie and Susan Gonda (Goldschmied) Diabetes and Genetic Research Building, City of Hope National Medical Center, Duarte, CA 91010, USA. srahbar@coh.org

Enhanced formation and accumulation of advanced glycation end products (AGEs) have been proposed to play a major role in the pathogenesis of diabetic complications, and atherosclerosis, leading to the development of a range of diabetic complications including nephropathy, retinopathy and neuropathy. Several potential drug candidates as AGE inhibitors have been reported recently. Aminoguanidine is the first drug extensively studied. However, there are no currently available medications known to block AGE formation. We have previously reported a number of novel and structurally diverse compounds as potent inhibitors of glycation and AGE formation. We have now studied several of the existing drugs, which are in therapeutic practice for lowering blood sugar or the treatment of peripheral vascular disease in diabetic patients, for possible inhibitory effects on glycation. We show that that three compounds; pioglitazone, metformin and pentoxifylline are also inhibitors of glycation.

PMID: 11020463 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Pentoxyphylline and propentophylline are inhibitors of TNF-alpha release in monocytes activated by advanced glycation endproducts.
Meiners I, Hauschildt S, Nieber K, Münch G.

Nachwuchsgruppe Neuroimmunologische Zellbiologie, IZKF Leipzig, Germany.

Non-enzymatic glycation of proteins with reducing sugars and subsequent transition metal-catalyzed oxidation leads to the formation of protein-bound "advanced glycation endproducts" (AGEs). They accumulate on long-lived protein deposits inducing senile plaques in Alzheimer's disease. AGE-modified proteins are able to activate microglia and astroglia and can cause chronic inflammation. The aim of the present study was to confirm the stimulatory effect of different AGEs on TNF-alpha release in human monocytes. Furthermore, the effects of four xanthine derivatives on AGE-induced TNF-alpha release were investigated. We show that chicken egg albumin-AGEs prepared with glucose and chicken egg albumin-AGEs prepared with methylglyoxal dose-dependently induce TNF-alpha release. The xanthine derivatives pentoxyphylline and propentophylline attenuate AGE-induced TNF-alpha release in a dose-dependent manner. Theophylline at low concentrations slightly stimulated TNF-alpha release whereas caffeine had no effect. The inhibition of the AGE-induced TNF-alpha release by pentoxyphylline and propentophylline provides interesting pharmacological strategies for diseases with local neuroinflammation such as Alzheimer's disease.

PMID: 14991464 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

There is your link.  All of these diseases lead back to Glycation and Advanced Glycation End products.  When you attack on the level of Glycation you "risk" knocking out multiple afflictions in one sweep.  That is why I am such a strong advocate of Pentox and other AntiGlycation strategies.  Acetyl L Carnitine is also an Antiglycant.  And if you are successfully increasing your Nitric Oxide levels with the Arginine, guess what?  Nitric Oxide attacks Glycation as well.  So perhaps you have ended up with a perfect storm here!  Congratulations!  - George

[newguy]

Great research George. It's very reassuring when the pieces of the jigsaw start to come together.

[jsotheby]

I am 29 y/o and believe I have diffuse fibrosis with Peyronies Disease-like symptoms (shrinkage, slight curvature, loss of sensation, severe impotence).  Pills don't really work at all and I am thinking about using injections.

I was just wondering if anyone knows if potentially I wanted to conceive a child with a woman, whether the injectable substance could be potentially dangerous.  

If anyone knows or has experience with this I would appreciate the input.

Thanks.

[jmaxx]

Jack,

The history of Propecia may be quite important - we have heard more than once here of it being related to (and perhaps causing) Peyronie's Disease. When the effects of testosterone are blocked, one possible outcome is fibrosis. You may want to get a complete sex hormone assay done, including testosterone and sex hormone binding protein levels. In the meantime, you may help with erectile quality and with the Peyronie's by using the VED on a regular schedule (daily) as discussed in that thread. Additionally, some of us use Horny Goat weed which is a Prostoglandin inhibitor like Viagra that has anti-inflammatory effects and enhances erectile quality. If taken at therapeutic doses - it is about one tenth as strong as viagra, so a person who responds to 100 mg of viagra would need to take 1000 mg of HGW. If you look carefully at most labels, though, it will say something like "500 mg" per dose, but the dose is two capsules, and the "active icariin dose" is one tenth of the milligrams listed. Thus a 500 mg dose of HGW is really 50 mg of icariin in 2 capsules. If I take 20 capsules of HGW, that is delivering 500 milligrams of icariin, which is equivalent to 50 mg of viagra. In my experience it does not wokr as well, but i have almost no side effects excpet mild nasal stuffiness.


Just my two cents worth.

Tim

I don't know Tim.  You shouldn't make a blanket statement "prostaglandins are something to inhibit by taking HGW and Viagra."  

Prostaglandins, for practical purposes, can be classified in three groups, depending on which fatty acid they were made from. Series 1 prostaglandins use linoleic acid as the starting point, while Series 3 prostaglandins use linolenic acid as the base fatty acid. Series 1 and 3 prostaglandins are considered the "good" prostaglandins, while Series 2 are considered the "bad" prostaglandins.

Series 1 prostaglandins are made from gamma linoleic acid (whose parent fatty acid is linoleic acid). This series of prostaglandins relax blood vessels, improve circulation, lower blood pressure, decrease inflammation, improve nerve function, regulate calcium metabolism, improve T-cell function, and lastly, prevent the release of something called "arachidonic acid" from cells. Arachidonic acid, or AA, is what Series 2 prostaglandins, or the "bad" prostaglandins, are made from.

Series 2 prostaglandins promote platelet aggregation (clot formation); inflammation; sodium retention; and  may influence heart disease, blood clots, increased cortisol production, etc.. Reducing prostaglandins series 2 is a good option to stay healthier.

Series 3 prostaglandins are formed from the fatty acid found in fish oil: EPA (whose parent essential fatty acid is linolenic acid). The most important job of Series 3 prostaglandins is to prevent AA from being released by cells, thus preventing the production of bad Series 2 prostaglandins.

The smooth muscles in the penis produce TGF-B1, a component of the immune system, and one of its roles is to produce collagen. Collagen contributes not only to structural tissue in the body, but is also the material that comprises scar tissue. Prostaglandin E1, among its other functions, opens blood vessels and suppresses collagen production. There is some evidence that when oxygen levels become too low, TGF-B1 production increases and prostaglandin E1 production decreases.  If this last statement is true why would, as you suggest, we want to "inhibit prostaglandin" when a prostaglandin E1 decrease is part of the process that promotes peyronie's?

And I thought the research shows taking HGW and Viagra is not for "inhibiting prostaglandins" as you say, it is to fight the progression of plaque via inhibiting Transforming Growth Factor Beta 1 (TFG-B1)

[jmaxx]

Has anyone here from the U.S. successfully used a Canadian pharmacy for Cialis or Viagra?  

[jackp]

Injections for ED. DON'T DO IT!!!!
Like you pills did not work for me. At your age you do not want to go on testesterone replacement therapy (trt). I could cause you not to be able to conceive a child. Check with a good urologist. If all else fails put some sperm in a sperm bank.
The problem with injections for ED is corporal fibrosis. I'm 65 and had a failed implant last October because of corporal fibrosis from injection therapy for ED. You can go to the Surgery section and go back and read the story.
Have you had a color doppler? A color doppler will tell if you have Venous Leakage or not.
At your age I would start out with a VED for erections. Old Man has the right way to use one under the VED section. A word of caution if used wrong it can cause damage that will take weeks to heal.
There is lots of information on this board. Any questions just ask.
Jackp

[George999]

jxyz,  I think Tim meant to write phosphodiesterase and inadvertently wrote prostaglandin instead.  In other words, I think this is a typo on Tim's part.  Prostaglandin E-1 is actually used pharmaceutically for the same purpose as Viagra is, you certainly would not want to inhibit it.  But you would want to inhibit phosphodiesterase-5 and that is exactly what both Viagra AND HGW accomplish.  - George

[jsotheby]

Thanks for the advice.

Just to be clear I was talking about injections of alprostadil or trimix.  Is that what you are referring to as well?  I was not talking about testosterone just to be clear.

If no injections, how should I expect to be able to have sex though?  That is my dilemma.
I really don't want to use a ved at my age.


Does anyone know about whether the alprostadil or trimix cream will work or not?

[jackp]

Sorry about the rant against injection therapy for ED. Yes PGE1 (Edex) and trimix is what I am talking about. It caused me to have a bad case of corporal fibrosis. Corporal fibrosis will make ED symptoms worse as well as penile shortening and loss of feelings.
Pills did not work for me either. I tried injection therapy for over a year with little to no help. I was on the strongest dose of trimix the have and using 10 units, with the smallest needle.
With your symptoms you need to go to the urologist and have a color doppler to make sure you have venous leakage. Then make a plan of action.
I understand that younger men do not like the idea of VED or implants. That being said VED therapy will help you a lot. I lost 1.25" to low testesterone, Peronies, ED, Venous Leakage and corporal fibrosis. With the help of Old Man on the VED section I have gained back 1/4 to 1/2 inch in length. It is a excellent exercise and gets the fibrosis loosened up.
You will need a lot of support from a good urologist and your partner. Be open and honest with your partner and you will be rewarded with support and more love than you can imagine.
I mentioned testesterone therapy only because you said you wanted a child. TRT will shut down the ability to father a baby. You do need your testesterone checked to know where you are for later.
I understand the dilemma of how to have sex. If pills do not work about the only option is a VED. Once you learn how to use it it will not be a problem and your partner will understand if you are open and honest about it.
Sorry, there is no cream that I know of that will work.
Just remember you are not alone in this. There are many here that will answer any questions you have. Go to the VED section and get Old Man to help with a VED. I did and now have a sex life back.
Jackp

[Old Man]

jsotheby:

You had best listen to JackP about injections. It does not matter what the injections into one's penis is for, it is the same for any meds injected.  It is the penetration of the tunica and erectile tissue that becomes the problem. If one is inclined towards Peyronies Disease or other penile conditions, the needle will cause the damage. A healing process takes place each and every time the area is penetrated. This in itself can and will most likely cause some form of scar tissue. It takes time for these penetrations to heal so therefore there is cause for caution in getting injections for any purpose.

I had 12 injections of Verapamil for Peyronies Disease therapy and each one cause a nodule that took many months and therapy with various means to get rid of successfully. Thankfully, the VED seemed to be the best weapon of choice for me in that regard.

There are posts on this forum that present the problems guys have had with injections, so please read up on the previous posts by using the key word injections in the search engine link.

So, bottom line, if you do choose to get injections in your penis for any reason, be aware of this problem and watch the after effect closely for problems.

Old Man

[Tim468]

When I hear of diffuse fibrosis, loss of sensation, ED and curvature, I first wonder about low testosterone. I hope that you have had a good workup by a urologist.

If you had an injury (like prolonged erection with subsequent damage to the corpora) then you might be a good candidate for Pentox therapy.

Although the VED may not help (or work emotionally) for you when it comes to sex. you might still benefit - greatly - from using it on a daily basis.

If you have any remote chance of recovery of function and shape, it is going to come from:VED use daily, probable use of Pentox, and a diagnosis - if at all possible - for why this is happening (or why it happened).

For sex, it is probably worth a trial of one injection to see if you have adequate blood flow under any circumstances to allow for a "natural" erection. If you have tried tri-mix of something, and it gave you an erection, then you may want to think about whether or not it is for you (if it does not work at all, then you don't even have to think about using it).

In general, the use of a VED is perhaps more intrusive. I am not sure if "pumping up" is always more apparent than an injection, but I can see the possibility of shooting up in the bathroom and within ten minutes hopping in the sack feeling ready to go.

A couple of more thoughts... if priapism led to an injury, risking tht again with an injection might compound damage. Second, if trauma led to the diffuse fibrosis, then injections (as others have mentioned loudly here!) can (and often will) lead to more fibrosis.

Overall, most of us find injections to be traumatic, because we are men with Peyronie's and our penises do not respond well to being poked!

As for the question you asked, I can find no data regarding birth defects or fertility.

Tim

[Tim468]

George got it right - I meant to write phoshodiesterase inhibitor.

Tim

[jsotheby]

Thanks a lot for all the feedback.

I will definitely read up on ved.  I have lost 3 cm also and would like to restore as much length as possible.  That would be great.  Can someone tell me basically how ved allows that?

Also, what perplexes me is that I have had ultrasound and caverno and neither shows any problem of leakage.  Does anyone know whether it was dangerous to have caverno by the way if there is diffuse, undetectable fibrosis?

Regarding whether the injections work, I know they do as a relatively small amount of tri-mix worked really, really well in the doctor's office as far as producing a long erection that needed to be drained.  I realize that could degrade over time, but I do know that they work.

I don't think I could get myself to do that, anyhow, but I was thinking it would allow for more spontanaiety and would be easier for women my age to accept.  TOo bad you can't just inject it somewhere else in your body.

All of these problems happened when I injured myself by losing the grip on the band on my underwear which snapped back and sort of crushed the erect penis against the pelvis.  It caused a sharp pain and detumescence and over the next month the situation deteriorated.

I was referring to a new tri-mix gel that just came out and another pge1 gel that is coming out this summer.  Any reason to be optimistic that combined with maximum strength viagra it might work?

Also, anyone know whether gene therapy will work at all on these injuries?

Thanks alot.  I appreciate the help.

[George999]

There are a number of interesting studies that highlight the unique capability of Aloe Vera to correct Collagen anomolies:

Life Sci. 2003 Jan 3;72(7):84350.
Inhibition of collagenase and metalloproteinases by aloins and aloe gel.
Barrantes E, Guinea M.
Department of Pharmacology, School of Pharmacy, University of Alcala, Ctra. MadridBarcelona Km 33.6, 28871 Alcala de Henares, Spain.

The effects of Aloe barbadensis gel and aloe gel constituents on the activity of microbial and human metalloproteinases have been investigated. Clostridium histolyticum collagenase (ChC) results dosedependently inhibited by aloe gel and the activityguided fractionation led to an active fraction enriched in phenolics and aloins. Aloins have been shown to be able to bind and to inhibit ChC reversibly and noncompetitively. Aloe gel and aloins are also effective inhibitors of stimulated granulocyte matrix metalloproteinases (MMPs). The remarkable structural resemblances between aloins and the pharmacophore structure of inhibitory tetracyclines, suggest that the inhibitory effects of aloins are via an interaction between the carbonyl group at C(9) and an adjacent hydroxyl group of anthrone (C(1) or C(8 )) at the secondary binding site of enzyme, destabilizing the structure of granulocyte MMPs.

Phytother Res. 2002 Dec;16(8 ):7128.
The influence of longterm Aloe vera ingestion on agerelated disease in male Fischer 344 rats.
Ikeno Y, Hubbard GB, Lee S, Yu BP, Herlihy JT.
Department of Physiology, University of Texas Health Science Center, San Antonio, Texas 782293900, USA.

The effects of longterm Aloe vera ingestion on agerelated diseases were investigated using male specific pathogenfree (SPF) Fischer 344 rats. Experimental animals were divided into four groups: Group A, the control rats fed a semisynthetic diet without Aloe vera; Group B, rats fed a diet containing 1% freezedried Aloe vera filet; Group C, rats fed a diet containing 1% charcoalprocessed, freezedried Aloe vera filet; and Group D, rats fed the control diet and given whole leaf charcoalprocessed Aloe vera (0.02%) in the drinking water. This study demonstrates that lifelong Aloe vera ingestion produced neither harmful effects nor deleterious changes. In addition, Aloe vera ingestion appeared to be associated with some beneficial effects on agerelated diseases. Groups B exhibited significantly less occurrence of multiple causes of death, and a slightly lower incidence of fatal chronic nephropathy compared with Group A rats. Groups B and C rats showed the trend, slightly lower incidences of thrombosis in the cardiac atrium than Group A rats. Therefore, these findings suggest that lifelong Aloe vera ingestion does not cause any obvious harmful and deleterious side effects, and could also be beneficial for the prevention of agerelated pathology. Copyright 2002 John Wiley & Sons, Ltd.

Indian J Exp Biol 1998 Sep;36(9):896901
Influence of Aloe vera on collagen turnover in healing of dermal wounds in rats.
Chithra P, Sajithlal GB, Chandrakasan G.
Department of Biochemistry, Central Leather Research Institute, Adyar, Chennai, India.

Treatment of fullthickness wounds with A. vera, on rats resulted in increased biosynthesis of collagen and its degradation. A corresponding increase in the urinary excretion of hydroxyproline was also observed. Elevated levels of lysyl oxidase also indicated increased crosslinking of newly synthesised collagen. The results suggest that A. vera influences the wound healing process by enhancing collagen turnover in the wound tissue.

Mol Cell Biochem 1998 Apr;181(12):716
Influence of Aloe vera on collagen characteristics in healing dermal wounds in rats.
Chithra P, Sajithlal GB, Chandrakasan G.
Department of Biochemistry, Central Leather Research Institute, Adyar, Madras, India.

Wound healing is a fundamental response to tissue injury that results in restoration of tissue integrity. This end is achieved mainly by the synthesis of the connective tissue matrix. Collagen is the major protein of the extracellular matrix, and is the component which ultimately contributes to wound strength. In this work, we report the influence of Aloe vera on the collagen content and its characteristics in a healing wound. It was observed that Aloe vera increased the collagen content of the granulation tissue as well as its degree of crosslinking as seen by increased aldehyde content and decreased acid solubility. The type I/type III collagen ratio of treated groups were lower than that of the untreated controls, indicating enhanced levels of type III collagen. Wounds were treated either by topical application or oral administration of Aloe vera to rats and both treatments were found to result in similar effects.

Influence of aloe vera on the healing of dermal wounds in diabetic rats
Chithra P.; Sajithlal G.B.; Chandrakasan G. G.
Chandrakasan, Department of Biochemistry, Central Leather Research Institute, Adyar, Chennai 600 020 India
Journal of Ethnopharmacology (Ireland) , 1998, 59/3 (195201)

The positive influence of Aloe vera, a tropical cactus, on the healing of fullthickness wounds in diabetic rats is reported. Fullthickness excision/incision wounds were created on the back of rats, and treated either by topical application on the wound surface or by oral administration of the Aloe vera gel to the rat. Wound granulation tissues were removed on various days and the collagen, hexosamine, total protein and DNA contents were determined, in addition to the rates of wound contraction and period of epithelialization. Measurements of tensile strength were made on treated/untreated incision wounds. The results indicated that Aloe vera treatment of wounds in diabetic rats may enhance the process of wound healing by influencing phases such as inflammation, fibroplasia, collagen synthesis and maturation, and wound contraction. These effects may be due to the reported hypoglycemic effects of the aloe gel.

So even though Aloe Vera inhibits Collagenase, it stimulates Collagen turnover, which is what we need to occur.  How Collagen turnover can be increased at the same time Collagenase is inhibited is a mystery, but these reports do seem to make clear that Aloe Vera is capable of rebuilding healthy tissue.  - George

[jsotheby]

ON Wednsesday, I too two Pentox for the first time.  I had been experiencing the best sensitivity I have since injuring myself several months ago.  W/in 1 hour of taking the first one, my libido fell off the planet.  It hasn't come back and my penis is totally numb.  I went from having vastly improved sensitivity, I believe due to daily viagra, to pentox-induced total numbness and lack of libido.

I literally was ok in the morning, took the pentox, and turned into a totally asexual, afeeling human being.

I don't know what to do.  I KNOW it was the pentox.  Will it likelly return?

[newguy]

jsotheby -  Maybe it's linked to stress and worry about using pentox for the first time, though it's hard to be sure. Personally, in your shoes, I would stick with it for a week or two and see if the situation changes.