Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease

[Tim468]

"Why are so many men pre-occupied with dick size and cum loads?"

Looking at or watching porn and feeling inadequate. Forgetting that the porn stars are hired for just those reasons!

Tim

[jackp]

Tim

Size did not have anything to do with my post. Most men do not drink enough water instead they drink coffee, cola, power drinks, etc. This caused dehydration and we eliminate less bodily fluid.

Orange and citrus juice have an citric acid and it irritates the bladder and prostate in a lot of  men. Cranberry juice does not have citiris acid but the same vitamin C as orange juice, it also has any anti infection property for the urinary tract.

When I feel a prostate infection or kidney stone attack coming on I double up on the cranberry juice and have a faster recovery.

Jackp

[LWillisjr]

Same here.
I've just noticed that as I've gotten older, ejaculate quantity seems to vary a lot more. Just thought Jack's post on cranberry juice was interesting.

[hazhoni]

[I had a large bladder stone bothering me for about 3 years before I gave in 2 months ago to having it blasted away with laser surgery. About 7 or 8 months ago I noticed that my penis became curved on erection. Also, I noticed that upon ejaculation, it doesn't really shoot out. It just kind of of comes out a little delayed. It sounds like Peyronies's Disease. I did some groundwork and was wondering if anyone knows if Acetlyl L Carnetine is helpful. I'm 53 and perhaps this is natural for ejaculation at a certain age?

I don't believe that diminished ejaculation is associated with Peyronies Disease. I'm 53 and mine has also diminished somewhat over the years. For me it me it seems to have more to do with how much foreplay there is before climaxing.

It could well diminish the force of ejaculation though, as it has to go round a bend.

[nemo]

Had my annual meeting with my Men's Health guru doc, Romeo Mariano, in Monterey, CA yesterday. He'd been working on me for a year with diet, vitamin and supplement treatment to address adrenal fatigue, low energy, low frequency of nocturnal erections, etc.  Mixed results so far, but I am definitely healthier for it - diet is good, irritible bowel resolved, etc.  But one thing we've always discussed was my testosterone levels, which he wanted to see if we couldn't get up through a more holistic approach first.  Not a lot of success in that regard.  I'm 38 and in the last two years of measuring, my Testosterone has averaged in the 400s, while my Estradiol is averaging around 14.  Both are considered low for a man of my age.

So ... Dr. M has now put me on Testosterone.  I'll be injecting once a week, 100mg of Test Cypionate. I must admit, I'm a little scared, but it's something I've wanted to try for a couple years now, ever since I had my Uro check my Testosterone and it came back 235!  He sluffed it off, but I knew that was way too low.  Even in the 400s, I know I don't feel like I'm as healthy and energetic as I should be.  So, we'll see.  I'm a little worried about growing hair like Sasquatch and of course will be watching my prostate, but this literally (I hope) could be a turning point in life for me.  

On another front, I asked him about Low Dose Naltroxen, but we didn't have time to get into it.  I have both Peyronie's and Vitiligo, which are auto-immune, and he said we'd talk about it next time we talk by phone.  He sounds like he'd be open to trying it (he's very open minded and receptive to off-label type things when he thinks they're warranted.)

I'll keep you posted.  

Nemo

[rockwall]

Hey George999,

Have you resumed treatment with topical camphor/Tiger Balm/Bengay Ultra and if so what are your results? Anyone else trying this?

Rockwall

[rockwall]

Based upon the" peyronie's gel" that Ocelot556 got from a compounding pharmacy I compounded a small amount of EDTA and ALC with DMSO.
With a rubber glove I applied this concoction to my hand Dupreytren's and to the Peyronie's. I was a bit aggressive as I would apply and rub until it was absorbed repeatedly. My hand resembled a leather catchers mit and my penis wrinkled and burned. After healing a few days I then conservatively applied this thick compound until it just absorbed on it's own (about an hour) which was a better approach. I apply it to my hand daily and to my penis on alternate days or sometimes longer. It is doing something. I have also started infrared treatments on both areas 30 min daily and I believe it is helping.

I have had Peyronie's for about 15 years and DC for about 5 and have not seen much improvement to date. After a week and a half of this regimen along with VED after the hyperthermia treatment I am getting better erections. I am currently taking no oral supplements.

I hope this helps.

Rockwall  

[ohno]

What form of hyperthermia treatment (infra-red lamp, etc) are you using specifically? Thanks, and good luck.

[rockwall]

I purchased a 10-1/2" garage style aluminum light fixture with a clamp on the side and no on/off switch at Walmart for $10. It has a porcelain insert and is rated to 300 watts. I actually purchased two Infrared bulbs to better mimic what others were trying. One is a 250 Watt Philips heat lamp red at the Home Depot for $10 and the other is 150 Watt Nocturnal Infrared Heat Lamp from Petco for about $25. I just hold the lamp at different distances with the various bulbs. I don't know that one is superior to the other. Like Joshua said, I just hold it close enough so that it does not feel like it is burning me. I have been fairly aggressive with the heat(30 min duration) and have so far not experienced any burns, red skin, or anything except the skin is a bit wrinkly looking for about 10 min or so after treatment. I have only been doing this for about a week and a half but, I am pretty sure that I have not experienced any damage. I am no expert so be careful if you are going to try this. The Brazilian study is using 150 Watt bulb at 20 CM for example.

I should also explain that I place the subject in a andro stretcher and cover my legs, testicles, and glans with a thick towel.

Good Luck,

Rockwall

[Fred22]

rockwall,

Are you measuring the temp.?  There have been numerous warnings on the hyperthermia thread RE tissue damage at temps. higher than 105 F. I believe.  However, it seems to me that one would know if damage is occuring.  IOW, I would think there would be some pain (stinging, burning sensation) if tissue was being killed.  Don't know for sure, but seems like common sense would tell you if your roasting your weiner.

Fred

[rockwall]

Fred22,

No temperature measurement. I agree with you here about common sense. I hold the lamp close enough until it stings a bit and then I back it off some.
105 deg f causes irreversible cell damage. Really? I walked around all day in the Middle East when the ambient temp was 120 deg in the shade and I am still here. Have you ever warmed your hands by an open fire? I am pretty sure those temps are well above 105 deg which really is just warm and barely above normal body temp. I think your nerve system warns you about damage but maybe not with some types of heat such as microwave or certain types of radiation. So far I cannot detect any damage except what has been brought about by Peyronie's. This is just my opinion and I assume others may have a different and more knowledgeable opinion.

Rockwall.  

[beesting]

Hello, i had peyronies back in 1999. for i went to doctor while in country, USA, to confirm. I also went through the pain period of several months with slight curvature, and lost my marriage for not getting some useful treatment or medical help. It appears there are shots that help, but frankly most that chatter was pitched in the early 2000s.

I did most of the lotions type experiments on my penis and wasted 5 years before stumbling on the alternative treatments by nature.

I think it is common knowledge now that arthritis relief comes not from doctors of medicine but specialists applying beestings in selected areas of stress. This beesting application is usually performed on hands or feet, specially finger joints. I have had bees for a hobby, and do not fear their sting much.

Well i started to have pains in my hands, thumbs and forefingers. And i began catching bees and stinging my finger joints. The sensitivity, after a few weeks of stinging, went down, and i increased the stings two per hand each other day. i did this for many months. With the pain and small lumps of grease, calcium matter or what ever you want to call it, i will call it the bloods method of patching --much like a bandaid.

It did not take long for me to realize, a finger is much like a penis-- an extension of special uses. And in the kitchen i stung one side muscle of my penis and jumped about form room to to room. But later used ice cube to reduce the sting of the bee toxin injected into my penis side muscle. This means the sting pasted the two skin membranes-- and injected its toxic formula into penis muscle. All males have two side muscle, so i stung the other muscle the next day. note avoid stinging the penis tip, or the finger tips within the finger print zones. Both are of no use getting stung anyway.

I have done this treatment for 6 months almost daily, one side muscle per day. I am still stinging my penis 1 every two weeks or so, but i have no calcium deposits within the penis. I am normal function, sexually, but for i waited 5 years the peyronies did its damage with my length.

Yes, there is a cure, a natures cure to peyronies, if you prefer the knife of the doctor or a few beestings. The sensitivity is the first task to do. how sensitive are you. the procedure is catch a bee and with pincer's sting your leg muscle or arm muscle. Id are muscle do the furthest from chest, the top of hand is okay place to start. If your hands swells and swelling goes half way up the arm, you are sensitive, and you need to bee sting one finger per hand, until no swelling of hand occurs, then and only then try to sting your penis, remember ice removes 90% of the pain.

Also, time the stinger is in the finger or penis is important. To start out 5 seconds seems a safe start, but i, after 5 years let the stingers in the penis a few minutes, and the finders 15 minutes or so. I can do two finger per hand each day if i want, but why do more.

the toxin of the bee coats the calcium patch, and any white blood cell will take both the pluck and the toxin-- for it can not separate the two anyway. so the blood puts the calcium patch or bandaid on the so called injured parts of body, your finger joints and penis muscles, and with beesting toxin contamination of the entire fingers, and penis, you get a free cleanup of the areas for free-- no doctor fees here!

Never sting the penis two times in the same day. also, the location of the sting is useful, since the penis is also in the body cavity, you need to sting at the base of the penis and near the tip or head -- but into the muscles only. I do not have much more to say, only i wish i had discovered this beesting relief sooner, could have saved my marriage. peyronies will never stop, and your beestings will never stop, a balance is required to keep the white blood cells from putting more bandaid patches of calcium on your fingers and penis.

i did not proof this text, and i am sure miss- spellings have occurred. please consider this information serious, and coming from one with 5 years experience with beestings t my body.

sincerely,

beesting

[nemo]

Oh boy.

[Skjaldborg]

This is why we can't have nice things.

[cowboyfood]

Oh boy.

ditto, this is the "credited" response.

[Iceman]

beesting -

1) where can 1 get so many beed from
2) how did it cure your Peyronies Disease exactly
3) did it reduce your inflammation
4) did it reduce plaque??
5) what are you really saying about this
6) is there something that can simulate a bee sting - i mean theres no way im putting a bee on my dick - no fu**ing way man

[chiguy]

I would be very wary of this. Each type of bee has a different venom. Pick the wrong venom and let's not think about the consequences. Plus if you might be allergic, I wouldn't recommend it.
And its painful!!!!!


What would be a good medication/ supplement to stimulate an erection?

[beesting]

dear Iceman,

i suspect many will reject this idea of beesting. And yes, not all bees are equal in venom. the German bees being the strongest. Even so, the control of the venom is via number of seconds while beesting is in the body. testing via below letter comments is typical in the pain treatment centers using beesting application to relieve arthritis victims, but few have any experience with penis injections. Advice is cheap, but my comments are from 500 injections of the penis and several thousands of beesting injections of the hands and fingers. I am live and well, and free of peyronies, and without selling the doctor's knives. I had the discomfort for 5 years, and became most disfunction. Today, 63 years of age, a retired technical engineer, worked in process labs most of my adult life within USA aircraft industry, i am free of peyronies discomforts and with normal sexual encounters. waht more can i ask. thank goodness for the common bee. Could anyone see stinging the penis with a hornet or wasp! Not me!

Yes, you get a bigger penis, in diameter only, but this is not the reason for getting beestings treatment anyway, only an added benefit to the final process of peyronies relief.

please note, Experience should always win out over opinion and untested comments of sideliner.

If you wish to go further, please see below attached comments, i will write two more process letters and then get out of your guys hair. A very nice website, keep it up and thank you.

Sincerely,

beesting

///////////////////////////

BEESTING TREATMENTS FOR PEYRONIES OF THE HAND

The purpose of this letter is to describe a simple method to stop, reverse, even repair the damages of peyronies. Of course, peyronies refers to discomforts of the penis, and hand discomforts mostly refer it to having arthritis. I believe that both these discomforts are of the same materials, calcium based patches to keep it simple, and that these patches are put in selected part's throughout the body via the immune system. In other words, arthritis and peyronies are related and both differ only in their specific locations placed within body by the immune system.

The first concern to treating discomforts of the hand, i.e. arthritis or calcium based patches, is to determine the patients sensitivity levels of beesting toxins. For this reason, the hand becomes the logical choice to test and evaluate beesting sensitivity levels.

If the patient has never been stung by a bee, not many of them in this day and age. The pain center technicians that treat arthritis via beestings, these specialists are located in most major or minor cities -- they know exactly how to test their patients for sensitivity to beesting toxins. In my opinion, logical test is arm or leg muscle, but fingers are the preferred choice. Why? Fingers are much like the penis, an appendage, but differ only with having knuckles and finger joints. The immune system typically target hands and feet and penis, in their never ending placement of  patch throughout the body.

If the patients sensitivity is high, the penis injections via beestings must be delayed a few months. Normal swelling of the wrist, backhand and adjacent fingers is acceptable, when beestings are inserted in the finger or thumb joint. Swelling up the arm, as far as the elbow, is not acceptable. Also, the time the beesting is left in the finger joints is important. The longer time left, means more toxins are getting injected into the body. So to be safe the first injections should always be very short – a few seconds, 5 or 10 seconds at the most. Removal of beestings is via fingernail sliding across the skin to catch the beesting, and then flipping it outward from the body.

In time, the fingers and hand will be less sensitive to beestings, and the application of beestings to the penis can begin. If the patient is applying his/her beestings, they will become expert at the process in a few months. This beesting practice on the hand will make you perfect at injecting beestings directly into the body, and not just on the skin surface. It is important the beesting application get through the entire skin barrier to successfully inject toxins directly into the finger/thumb joints.

In the case of the beesting application to the penis, my next letter, the beesting must pass the skin and fat layers protecting the penis, but always directly into the two side muscles only. More on this subject next letter called, BEESTING TREATMENTS FOR ARTHRITIS OF THE PENIS.

The number of beesting injections must be one per hand in the beginning. Not more often then two fingers per hand over time. The swelling past the wrist is not acceptable, s reduce the number of injections per hand or less time the beesting is left within the finger joints. Over time, you will be able to leave the beestingers in the two fingers per hand for 10 to 15 minutes at a time. The weekly application could be every other day, but eventually a few times a week will be ample.
The immune system and its never ending  patch placement is a slow process. The immune system places top priority to infections and beesting injections. This is good news, for the beesting toxin has an attraction for calcium based patches, and paints or invades this material completely. For this reason, the immune system removes the calcium based patches tanted with beesting toxins – it can not separate the two. This means the immune system removes the calcium patches it put there in the first place, only because they are contaminated with beesting toxins. I suspect the immune system repairs the surfaces the calcium patches where attached to, i.e., rejuvenated finger joints or penis muscles. Now that is good news.

In conclusion, the medical community has pain treatment centers everywhere. If you are not receptive to doing the business of beesting injection, yourself, there are plenty of experts that will assist your needs. If this is the case, i do suggest you copy all my letters sent to this important website. You can locate these letter via their internal search engine. Just place beesting, and you will get the few letters to copy and present your selected beesting therapist. It is very possible, many of these beesting specialists already know about peyronies relief via beesting injections to the penis. This would be great news to the peyronies suffers, who get nervous about seeing any doctor with scalpel.

this is experience of 5 years treatment by myself, i am a beekeeper hobbist, this is not 5 years of my opinion and untested comments. good luck

beesting

[Fred22]

Old Man,

You say your Peyronie's is in an arrested state.  How long has it been so and is this all due to VED therapy or have you been doing anything else to treat the Peyronie's?

Fred

[Angus]

  I urge anyone following the bee sting posts to research the consequences of bee stings to those who are allergic to the venom. Persons with this allergy, known to them or not, could endanger their lives with bee stings.  

[beesting]

Dear Angus,

I entitled the letter peyronies of the hand for a reason, and was stated why in my letter. I will write the next letter arthritis of the penis in a few days for the same reason. beesting treatments have been around for a long time, and it is not so painful as you fear it to be. Fear is always the best reason for avoiding, but unfounded fear is not. A simple ice cube releaves the beesting application process.

I am writing these procedure letters for a reason, to document them on the net, and to allow persons interested enough to look further into the beesting treatment clinics in their areas. Interested persons may simply copy my beesting letters on this important website -- and present them to the beesting specialists working in authorized clinics -- all will be informed enough to proceed with penis treatments.

Since i have performed these beesting treatments on my self for five years now, the current doses are only two beestings once every two weeks. This is enough venom injected in the area of the penis to keep the white blood cells busy enough to not be placing their calcium based patches too. If you can not control or reverse peyronies in your penis you WILL become disfunction, for the immune system in your body has selected your penis, and many other parts of your body for safe STORAGE of calcium based materials.

If beesting treatments are not for you, simply trash these comments about beestings, and go on with your selected medical treatments and their bills. I am not here to convince anyone about beesting treatments. Just remember these treatments have been going on for many years for arthritis sufferers, and that i have linked the two discomforts together as calcium based patches be it the hand, foot or the penis -- it is all the same materials used by the immune system.

I still say thanks to the honey bees! They give up their lives and toxins to give me relief from peyronies. With proper control for five years now, I do not need any medical doctors help, nor chatter their medical terms or jargon, nor receive their injections, nor get any medical bills in the mail. I think nature has provided a better alternate solution, for me. Fear of beestings is not a option, in my opinion.

Sincerely,

beesting

[LWillisjr]

If you can not control or reverse peyronies in your penis you WILL become disfunction, for the immune system in your body has selected your penis, and many other parts of your body for safe STORAGE of calcium based materials.

beesting,
You have stated in a couple of your posts that.....
  If you can not control or reverse peyronies in your penis you WILL become disfunction

For some people Peyronies Disease will simply be a nuisance due to a slight curvature. While in others it will cause pain and severe curvatures. I don't agree with your comment that everyone with Peyronies Disease will become dysfunctional.

[Angus]

Dear Angus,

...... beesting treatments have been around for a long time, and it is not so painful as you fear it to be. Fear is always the best reason for avoiding, but unfounded fear is not. A simple ice cube releaves the beesting application process.....

....Sincerely,

beesting

       My post said nothing of concern for pain from bee stings. My text stated concern about those who may have an allergic reaction to bee stings and not know of their allergy. Your posts generate much interest and much concern. I have first hand experience with what a bee sting allergic reaction can produce. Not everyone knows if they have this allergy or not. I appreciate your wanting to share what you believe to be a peyronies disease treatment, but I also wish you would have made at minimum a brief mention of the huge health risks of bee stings.  

[BentYoung]

Sorry to change the subject but...just curious, has anyone ever tried acupuncture for Peyronies Disease? Not necessarily right on the trouble area, but basic acupuncture to stimulate overall healing processes? I have seen it mentioned as a possible therapy for Peyronies Disease on several sites. I have never done it, but have spoken with others who swear by its healing properties.  

[Fred22]

Fred22:

My first encounter with Peyronies Disease started with a bad sexual experience at the age of 24. The resulting injury was that my shaft was literally broken at the mid point of the shaft.

I cannot recount all the therapies, treatments and including 45 3 minute X-ray bombardments of my Peyronies Disease area on the shaft. Until I started on the modified VED therapy that my uro and I developed for the one cylinder Osbon Esteem VED, there seemed to be no solution for my symptoms. None of the things that were tried helped.

After prostate surgery in 1995 which left me totally impotent the VED was prescribed by my uro. The VED did the most good and today, I have no visible defects or any that can be felt through examining the entire shaft. I still use the VED therapy three or four time a week just for maintenance. These exercises seems to keep my penis healthy and able to get erections with the VED. I can get natural erections by manual stimulation, but have to use a retainer ring to hold them long enough for sex.

I have been free of Peyronies Disease symptoms for 14 years now.

Old Man

Old Man,
Did you develop plaques, dents, etc, in your penis and did the VED therapy resolve those issues?  How bad was your curvature and how long did it take to resolve this?

[beesting]

Hello Generals with many stars on hanging off their shoulders,

i will not be able to get these stars you currently have, for i am new. I just do not have the time to pitch beesting and peyronies much longer. Frankly, you generals are just too over whelming to allow any new or old ideas relating to beestings and peyronies to enter this website in a respectful manner.

Each person must take their own trail, they will pay for going the wrong trails they take and only benefit for taking the right trails taken -- Frankly speaking -- are you really sure about all that peyronies relief so called proclaimed?

If so, Please ask those penile implant patients that lost their penis due to failed surgical practices or infection or complete rejection. These persons, about 5% to 10% of the disfunctional patients are without penis right now. FRANKLY SPEAKING, What do you say to these spent patients of so called expert doctors? Is penis-a-less acceptable end path?

But for me, a simple honey bee sting, a few weeks apart is a far cry from doing medial shots, experiencing doctor knives of all kinds, nor post operation routines of heavy weights hanging the penis downward, so it does not withdraw completely within body-- and all the after surgery problems none of the website practicing penile implant surgery.

I hope you guys do not beat me up so much, until i get the last two letters printed on this website of importance. What you 3 or 5 start generals say to us new visitors of the website, yes you are directly responsible for moving these new visitors into the greedy grasps of doctors and medical shots of questionable value or worth.

Each of you generals of stars many -- well you can tell use frankly all of the degree of maintenance you must do to stay stable with peyronies, put please tell us the number of needles, visits to numerous doctors and your failed results too. We need to see the both sides, yes or no.

I will only make one more letter, in a few days, and get out of this groups hair. I thank more the keymaster, then the general chatters within.

sincerely,


beesting

[Fred22]

Fred:

My history is posted all over the forum in the various threads/topics, but I will try to summarize some answers to your questions.

First, I must say that there have been several occurrences and re-occurrences of Peyronies Disease in the past 56 plus years since it first occurred at age 24. Many treatments/therapies were tried, but none gave any relief.

Now to answer your questions - Yes, I have plaque during the times of Peyronies Disease that were on either side, on the top side in various locations on the shaft. Each occurrence was in a different place. Some of the plaque left dents as they were gotten rid of and several dents even went away. At present, have no plaque or dents, just about the same size and shape as I was before Peyronies Disease.

The worst curves that I had at one time was a 45 degree downward and 45 degree to the right side. All of my symptoms came and went through continued use of the old Osbon Esteem one cylinder VED. My uro and I worked out a special routine of exercises with it that worked very well. This is posted in the VED board under the topic of one cylinder VED therapy as outlined by JackP. He did this therapy too before and after his implant surgery. You should read as many of his posts relative this as possible. He had great success with the VED therapy as well as myself.

Overall my VED therapy took the greater part of a year to produce the final results that I enjoy today - NO Peyronies Disease!!

Hope the above helps in any way. Feel free to ask any and all questions you may have at any time.

Old Man

Thanks for the info and sorry for the inconvenience of having to post it all again.  After I posted my questions, I realized that I could have just gone to the "Histories" thread.  It's very encouraging to me that you achieved such positive results with VED therapy.  I plan on ordering the Vitality from Fitzz very soon and beginning the 26 week protocol.  Thanks again for your patience.

Fred

[cowboyfood]

But for me, a simple honey bee sting,

BS,

Quit being inconsiderate to others on this forum.


Quit calling it a cure.  Even if one stipulates to all of your proclamations, at the end of the argument, you have nothing more to offer than another anecdotal story, no double blind research to back up your claims, and no cure.

Most of us have read this posting "template" before (ancient methods, cure, accuse others of being ignorant, insult others -- then have the nerve to complain about legitimate questions, and then leave).

CF

[newguy]

beesting

We tend to be a cautious bunch here. The risks of treatments are often discussed as well as the benefits. Perhaps the issue here is that bee sting treatment is being pushed as some kind of panacea, with other treatments being demonised. A more sensible approach would've been to state the benefits you've seen from this treatment, the obvious risks that exist, and express less of an attitude of distrust towards established treatments, some of which have been shown both here and in a scientific setting to be effective. Your plan to post these five letetrs is okay by me though.

[Woodman]

Reguarding Beestings letters about his therapy. I know all of us seasoned guys who have Peyronies Disease will take this with a grain or two of salt. Iam concerned for the new guys who are confused and new to being diagnosed with Peyronies Disease and are desperate and not quite well versed on the condition yet they may think this could be a viable ansewer for them.

Guys new to Peyronies Disease please don't try this treatment. This could be vary dangerous and harmful to your health as well as your penis. Do your research and try the main stream treatments that are available here and from your doctors. If you do not  know or need help trying to figure out treatments to help you please ask Iam sure any of us in the same boat would be more then glad to help you out and direct you in the right direction.

Woodman

[LWillisjr]

I hope that anyone who has read about the recent "Bee Sting" therapy understands that this can be a very dangerous procedure for someone who may be allergic to bee venom. While we are all looking for that "silver bullet" fix to Peyronies Disease, this is one person's account of what they believe worked for them. While bee venom has been used with limited success for arthritis, it is done under very specific oversight of a doctor and not a hobbyist beekeeper stinging him or herself.

With that being said, the user "beesting" has stated his experience and there is no other data or studies to substantiate this any further. I'm not trying to discredit beesting, and appreciate the input. But I don't see this going any further. It is one person's account. I only sense this degrading into a senseless debate at this point with no data to substantiate on either side.

To beesting.......
Thanks for the input. But you are coming across as this is the only sure fire cure and the rest of us are idiots for not trying it. I also don't care for the comments about us sending everyone to a surgeon's knife. If you have read anything on this forum you would clearly understand that this is not the case. We all hate this disease, and we are all on our personal journey to find a cure. And we seek help and support along the way.

So thank you for you comments and I'm happy for you. But some of your statements are not correct. And as a forum moderator please heed this warning. There is no need for any more letters from yourself stating your success with bee venom. We understand. And please no more remarks about 5-star generals, or implying we are crazy for not running out to find bees to sting ourselves with. While your English is good, it is evident it is not your first language. So my apologies if we are losing something in the cultural exchange here. But some of your comments are condescending and simply won't be tolerated.

You are welcome to read and express your opinion. I'm not trying to be mean. But if you keep pushing the bee venom thing, or keep making condescending remarks, we will ban your account. Simple.

[AR]

hi guys,

i've been away for a year or so and just happened to log-in the other day to find serendipitously, someone posting on BVT which, as an open-minded person and a bee-keeper myself, is a subject i'm VERY interested in. both in general, and particularly for my peyronies.

i went back and read beesting's posts and the ensuing responses with much disappointment.  you guys do i'm sorry to say, sound like a closed-minded group.

as lwillisjr points out, english is obviously not this guy's first language and there is, it seems, something lost in the "cultural exchange". what troubles me, is that instead of direction and guidance from you guys, i see mostly jokes, triteness, dismissals, and then ultimately the "warnings" of censure when someone exacerbated by your coldness becomes frustrated and "cocky". i've witnessed this same scenario in the past with folk who don't express themselves well in english.

though this is a Great forum for which i'm very greatful, and which has been Incredibly helpful to me, (a shout out to Old Man and Tim), this is an area that i feel, could use some attention.

in his first post beesting points out that if there's a question as to your sensitivity to bee venom, run a test on part of your body farthest from your heart, and suggests the back of the hand. this is not such a "crazy" thing. as i see it, it's no more of a "dangerous procedure" than any of the dozens/hundreds of other "treatments" that we've all tried and/or, are still practicing on our selves. (stand outside a hospital's emergency room entrance or your local drugstore before you sting "your Hand" if you're worried).

my wife and i've been keeping bees for over twenty years. (we have three hives at the moment). i get stung all the time, it always hurts, and i still occasionally curse. over the years i've stung myself intentionally many times on my arthritic fingers and wrists, and for a period my bum shoulder. it's not difficult and you can easily control how much venom is allowed to enter your body. based on my non-scientific observations over the years, i won't say that it's the silver bullet and i won't say it didn't help.   have i stung my crooked and deformed dick?  No.   Would i if i had more information and knew for sure it wouldn't fall-off... or my patches of plaque worsen?   Yes.  absolutely, and i would keep detailed figures and notes and share all.

i want to think that beestings condescending remarks are partly a result of, and are directed more at the medical community at large which i think (Dr. Tim excluded) we all have issues with. i certainly do!!

lwllllsjr, and others (with all the stars   : please. could we hear beesting out and try to determine if there's any viable data or science within his experience?

i propose we create a BVT topic board, separate from "alternative treatments" that i think would, one: add an element of seriousness to the subject, and two: eliminate a lot of the dismissive chatter, and our own "condescendtion" towards the subject. and, most importantly of course, it might lead to more information and possibly enlightenment.

before i logged-out last time, i'd brought up BVT for peyronies and received mostly humor.. but sometime later i saw i'd received a personal message from a fellow who was working in China and was up on BVT (which is used more widely there), and was going to investigate it's potential for his peyronies. i responded right away, but to my disappointment, never heard back from him. maybe his penis fell off and he died, or maybe it straightened beautifully and grew in girth and length and he's a happy camper now, but we may never know because he was obviously intimidated by our sight and only addressed me before he headed back to the far east. to my mind, this is or was, potentially valuable information that we lost.

beesting: if you're still with us, know that i'm interested in BVT and your experience, and you can write to me personally on my message board. what i would suggest to you here, is first read-up on how we measure and calibrate our disease from its progression to its stabilization, and in the best of all possible worlds, its demise, (or improvement). and secondly, though i commend you, it is a little hard to read your english. is there someone you trust who could possibly edit and improve the english in your posts. i feel you would be better received here.

here's to a straighter, less painful new year.. cheers, and my best to all of you,  ar  

[LWillisjr]

AR,
Thanks and appreciate the post. Sorry if I came across harshly to Bee Sting. What I was (and still am) concerned about is that he implied we were all stupid and crazy if we didn't try BVT. I'm not in a position to support or dismiss it at this point. Clearly you are experienced with dealing with bees and understand the risks. Bee Sting was pushing this as a sure fire silver bullet therapy, and my fear was that the untrained person would read and possibly try this without the proper precautions. I've researched facts stating that roughly 40 people per year die from a bee venom, and that 3% of the adult population will experience an anaphylaxis reaction. I think we need more supportive evidence of BVT and Peyronies Disease.

[cowboyfood]

...  you guys do i'm sorry to say, sound like a closed-minded group.

... as lwillisjr points out, english is obviously not this guy's first language and there is, it seems, something lost in the "cultural exchange".

AR,

I understand what you're saying about an open discussion of alternative treatments, and it appears to me that this forum encourages discussion of any.

I couldn't disagree with you more about the "closed-minded" comment.

IMO, the poster's use of the English language is excellent and clearly communicated his opinions about our forum, its members, and current treatments.

CF

[skunkworks]

i propose we create a BVT topic board, separate from "alternative treatments" that i think would, one: add an element of seriousness to the subject, and two: eliminate a lot of the dismissive chatter, and our own "condescendtion" towards the subject. and, most importantly of course, it might lead to more information and possibly enlightenment.

Considering hyperthermia does not have its own board, despite having actual studies backing it up, I cannot see how bee venom could possibly warrant its own board.

[Skjaldborg]

The bee venom poster in question was pushy and insulting (as lwillisjr noted). The treatment he was pushing is not backed up with medical studies and it could be dangerous to those with bee allergies. I guess that makes me close minded when it comes to offensive posting behavior and dubious treatments. Guilty as charged.

-Skjald

p.s. any advancements in Peyronie's treatments are going to be born out of good science and hard work, not an instant message from someone in an internet forum.  

[Lancaster]

What troubles me, is that instead of direction and guidance from you guys, i see mostly jokes, triteness, dismissals, and then ultimately the "warnings" of censure when someone exacerbated by your coldness becomes frustrated and "cocky". i've witnessed this same scenario in the past with others.

And I too have witnessed the same trite dismissive bad behavior also.  This group and the moderator can be very petty.  I have seen hawk ban good members because of his own personal petty reasons...shame!  I have seen tim do google searches and wrongfully accuse members of being ballet enthusiasts...oh shame again.

I am very open to beestings posts.  I have known for years that bee keepers have less incidence of arthritus.  I am not going to get myself repeatedly stung but I might think of trying a supplement such as royal jelly.  

Let's face it, there is absolutely no other treatment suggested here that will cure your cronic tunica albugenia fibrosis.  Skjaldborg, member george has suggested a battery of supplements over the years, none of which he takes himself and none of which will stop your tunica fibrosis.  I guess that puts george in the same category as beesting.  Skjaldborg, you are guilty as charged also.    

[chiguy]

Lancaster,

I don't think Hawk bans users for personal petty reasons. In fact, I think Hawk has much better things to do with his time. This is after all, an internet forum. We don't know each other and we probably will never know each other on a personal level. Therefore, I think this argument you make is without merit.

I think the point that the other forum members made regarding the bee venom posts are twofold. One, beestings are extremely dangerous, especially on a level mentioned by the poster of the beesting cure. There is a ton of work to be done regarding any treatment since there is no scientific data, control groups, etc. Two, this forum continues to grow and survive after several years. This is because forum members continue to post legitimate topics and threads. Compare that to other internet medical forums and all you will find is garbage, spam, and ridiculous posts from people that have nothing better to do with their time.

If you would like to offer substantive discussion on Peyronie's Disease, it is welcomed. There are many sufferers and although not too many people post on this forum, plenty of people read it on a daily basis.

[Lancaster]

I don't think Hawk bans users for personal petty reasons.
If you would like to offer substantive discussion on Peyronie's Disease, it is welcomed.

Oh, hawk has had his moments of pettiness.  

And chiguy, if you yourself would like to offer substantive discussion on tunica fibrosis how about you
do some research and get back to us on this issue https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,1063.0.html

-thank you

[Skjaldborg]

@Lancaster,

Your argument is a bit muddled in that George is not disparaging or offensive when he suggests various supplements to other members. The bee sting poster, on the other hand, used ad hominem attacks to belittle anyone who did not agree with him. To my knowledge, the supplements George suggests have been proven SAFE for other purposes, unlike bee stings, which have not.

Also, there's nothing unethical about recommending treatment one hasn't personally tried. I don't use VED or viagra but I recommend that users new to this forum ask their urologists (or other forum members) about these treatment options because they have been proven safe and effective for other people. Many members will recommend surgery if someone has severe symptoms, although they may not have had surgery themselves.

This forum is one of the better-run sites I have seen precisely because it is well moderated. I am closed minded when it comes to posters pushing clearly dubious treatments (treatments that have no medical studies purporting beneficial treatment of anything) because they do a disservice to those who visit this forum seeking information.

Best,

Skjald

[boston blacky]

First let me correct a distortion Skjaldborg just made.  Lancaster did not suggest george is disparaging or offensive when george suggests various supplements.  Lancaster discussed two separate issues, neatly discussed in three paragraphs.  I was able to differentiate the two issues.  Skjaldborg you got your issues crossed or you distorted intentionally and that touches on the original issue of pettyness and triteness.  And Lancasters second issue was the myriad anecdotal supplements that keep getting resurrected here.  

After finding this forum today I decided to join.  I have read numerous posts by george.  Most of his herb and spices and a few esoteric supplements are anecdotaly effective.  But perhaps taken all together they can have some anti fibrotic effect.  I doubt it though.  

We need real medicine not mickey mouse supplements.  I salute george and others for their daily research and daily posting of  real "effective" treatments for fibrosis not localized in the penis.  But I think your time would be better spent sending your research to research labs that are affiliated with men's urology issues.  To wit; I found good research being done with idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis that increases mmps.  I forwarded the research papers to a local university and basically asked them to ride the "coat tails" of the successful lung fibrosis treatment by transferring the application to penile fibrosis.  I got a positive response back and now I am at the front of the list, when they open up trials.  My unit may fall off before that happens but hey, I am at the front of the line all the same.  I also got a positive response from a research lab in NC doing work increasing i(nos) expression.  I peruse clinicaltrials.gov and centerwatch.com for key words like MMPs, fibrosis, long term NO donors, cytokines, you get the point.  Then I compile what I need to and send that along to Dr. Levine, Dr. Munnarez, Dr. Carson, universities, hospitals etc.  I easily find out who is on their research team for men's urinary health and I c.c. them also.  I have respectfully gotten good feedback and I expect my activity will one day start a penile fibrosis trial using the same resources tried for cardiac fibrosis or pulmonary fibrosis etc.  I would strongly encourage everyone here to be more vocal in this manner instead of perpetuating petty posts.  

Lancaster, I am in Boston, and we have a doctor here who does the treatment you questioned about.  I will comment on that in you steroid post.  I can see tim now, looking up my ip address to verify I am in MA.  Gotta poke fun at tim's ballet detective work.

[Angus]

   A suggestion to all that are letting this degenerate into personal attacks and name-calling: please read the "Read This First" section at the top of this forum. The rules of the forum are listed there numerically. These are not suggestions on how to behave: they are rules. Conduct yourselves as gentlemen, please.  

[therazy]

In the spirit of disclosure, my name is Theodore R. Herazy, DC and I have operated the Peyronie's Disease Institute website since 2002.  This is a website devoted to a detailed discussion of Alternative Medicine treatment of Peyronies Disease, using a synergistic group of therapies that are available for purchase on this site.  The initial concepts and practical steps for non-drug and non-surgical treatment of the man who has Peyronies Disease were based on my own investigation and the thinking of three MDs with whom I was practicing when I developed Peyronies Disease and subsequently treated myself successfully.        

I was just recently made aware of the below post that referenced my website and a small private research project I completed in 2008, and thought it would be good to address the issues he raised.  I have communicated with this forum Administrator who approved that I respond to that post.  Thank you for the opportunity to address this audience concerning this forum post.

This statement just makes me roll my eyes    

This video presents detailed instructions to stretch and improve the six basic types of Peyronies Disease deformities:
    1. Twist
    2. Curve
    3. Bend
    4. Dent (also called a ding, depression, or hinge)
    5. Hourglass
    6. Bottleneck
Further, additional information is included that explains how to successfully stretch a combination of distortions, since very often two or more penis distortions appear together.

Assuming manipulating one's penis could improve it (which is a huge assumption),

It is not an assumption.  Soft tissues of the body when abnormally contracted can be stretched and, hence, improved.  Therapeutic soft tissue stretching has been done for thousands of years – it was just never applied to Peyronie's disease until I did it.  

Begin with the fact that the lesion of Peyronies Disease is a soft tissue structure containing collagen, fibrin, and elastic tissue fibers, of similar composition as other soft tissue structures (tendons, ligaments, fascia and organ matrix).  These structures are capable of contraction and therefore they can also be influenced to stretch.  Soft tissue responds to lineal traction force when it is correctly applied, sometimes at a surprisingly fast rate.  In fact, physical therapists spend great time and effort stretching surface scars that occur after surgery or trauma to lengthen them, as well as internal scars referred to as adhesions.  Soft tissue stretching is successfully performed by doctors to increase distance between compressed spinal vertebrae, as well as on burn units, post-surgically in bladder repair, bone grafting and breast augmentation, many forms of cosmetic surgery, as well as ballerinas, athletes and contortionists.  Professional body builders spend a lot of time stretching soft tissues.  Anyone who has used a VED (although I do not advocate it for Peyronies Disease), knows that it can temporarily stretch penile tissue.  African women who wish to create the illusion of a longer neck will stretch the neck and shoulder soft tissues to lengthen their soft tissue.  

The PDI gentle manual method to stretch the Peyronies Disease lesion is totally different from the concept of the mechanical penis stretching devices that are heavily promoted.  Unlike the mechanical penis stretchers that can cause injury to the penile tissue, sometimes starting or worsening Peyronies Disease, gentle manual penis stretching cannot harm the penis when done as instructed.  The only "force" used is about an ounce – extremely small; so small that one of the difficulties encountered in teaching this technique is to have the user lighten his contact touch so that he does not create defensive resistance to the lengthening process within the scar tissue.    

Lastly, I want to make sure you and your forum readers do not make the PDI gentle manual penis stretching method something that it is not.  I am concerned that you are viewing this stretching method as a solo therapy, just as the mechanical penis stretchers are advertised as a solo therapy.  This is not the case with the stretching method I developed.  It is not intended to be used alone to help Peyronies Disease, just as none of the therapies on the PDI website are recommended to be used alone.  

The basic idea behind the PDI therapy concept is the use of multiple therapies to enhance therapeutic synergy – "ganging up" on the problem with multiple therapies.  This is what was done when the PDI gentle manual penis stretching method was developed.  All 10 men in our work group were using other therapies in addition to the stretching method.  What was noted as a result of including the stretching technique into their existing plans was that their results were noticeably increased in eight of the 10 cases; the two men who did not see good improvement were not using aggressive therapies; the eight who got added benefit by including the PDI stretching method were using aggressive therapies.  Using multiple therapies is not good research, I know, but I am not a researcher and I notify people on the website I am not doing research.  I am interested in helping people who have Peyronies Disease to get better, and I think I can do that outside the format of formal research.  My readers either accept that idea, or they do not.

where would one even begin to get the knowledge on how to manipulate these various deformities and combinations successfully

Graston, Barnes, Upledger, Hammer, McAtee, etc. are just a few of the many educators in the general area of soft tissue stretching, who have lectured for decades to a worldwide medical audience. Detailed knowledge, experience, and technical training concerning soft tissue stretching and lengthening are readily and widely available within the broad world of physical therapy, osteopathic medicine, chiropractic, physiatry, and sports medicine.  Perhaps you were unaware of this wide universe of information within the healing arts that relate to soft tissue manipulation.  

The idea and basic technique to safely and gently stretch the Peyronies Disease scar had to start with someone, so I must answer that the original idea of soft tissue manipulation started with me.  Perhaps I am the pioneer in this area of gentle manual Peyronie's scar stretching you ask about.  But I only built upon a larger body of experience and knowledge from people far smarter than I.

There are no pioneers to build on, no such research.

Not so.  Refer to the previous answer.  There are hundreds of research papers and texts that document the efficacy of soft tissue manipulation and stretching.  However, none of this information was previously applied to the penis in Peyronies Disease, until I made that step.  Does that make it automatically impossible or false?  I think not.  

Many medical discoveries and innovations are made by taking well known information about "A" and applying it to a new situation like "B," if there is reasonable reason to do so.  That is all that I did.  It was really a simple and easy idea to develop once it occurred to me.  After explaining this concept, many people comment that it makes a lot of sense to them.  This is the hallmark of a good idea – it seems pretty simple and obvious once it is presented.  

Where did I get the idea?  Forty-one years of practice experience; many hundreds of hours of post-graduate training and education; successful personal treatment of my own Peyronies Disease; common sense, ingenuity and a little luck applied to basic anatomy and physiology; and, desperately looking for answers and different synergistic therapy concepts to help all the men I communicate with 365 days a year for the last eight years.  Many therapeutic concepts and advancements that are currently endorsed and accepted by the medical community started outside it, although they were initially rejected and castigated because they did not originate from the "right" source.  My gentle manual penis stretching idea might be one of them – time will tell.

Did he try several methods with dozens of patients for each method and fail?

A complete explanation is available on the PDI website.  

Concerning the size of this study:   I am currently in discussion with the urology department of a leading U.S. medical school to investigate another therapy that is applicable to Peyronie's disease treatment   The medical director of that institution suggested for the pilot study that we use 10 randomly chosen men with Peyronies Disease.  For my pilot study I worked with 10 randomly chosen men.  You see, ten is an acceptable number of subjects in the early stages of research.  Additional information about my guidelines and protocol are presented at that link that Believer gave in his original post.  No one – certainly not me – has ever said I conduct classic research like a multimillion dollar university or a multibillion dollar pharmaceutical conglomerate.  All I have ever said is that I will leave the formal research to others who are capable of performing on that level, and I will attempt to put together ideas and information from existing published research, as well as my own knowledge, training, experience and ingenuity, to find what helps the Peyronies Disease of men who choose  to participate.  No guarantees can be offered, and there can never to a promise of "cure."  

Within the PDI concept a man attempts to initiate a healing response by rehabilitating his tissue using a wide variety of synergistic Alternative Medicine therapies.    As we point out on the PDI website, "We do not attempt to treat the Peyronies Disease scar, we attempt to rehabilitate the man who has the Peyronies Disease scar so he is better able to heal it."   Every man who has ever been diagnosed with Peyronie's disease was told by his MD to come back in six months to determine if his problem has cleared up – meaning, healed.    Everyone understands that the Peyronies Disease scar goes away on its own – heals – in a percentage of cases.  The PDI treatment concept is to do all that is possible to make sure each man heals his Peyronies Disease scar to the best of his ability.  This is the basis of what is explained in detail on the PDI site.  

The gentle manual penis stretching technique is a part of that effort to promote natural tissue repair and healing; manual stretching is not all that is suggested, and it is not all that can be done to promote scar repair. This overview for recovery from Peyronies Disease is a world of difference that separates the standard medical approach and the Alternative Medicine approach of PDI.    

Did he just have the gods of penis health smile down upon him so he got right on the first attempt what has elluded mankind for several hundred years?

Who said I got it "right on the first attempt?"   I never said that; I never wrote that anywhere.  Those are not my words, but your own.  

What percent of patients respond, 100%

I think it is safe to say that no drug, medical technique or procedure used to treat any medical problem has even shown to be 100% successful.  Viagra works for only 60-75% of men.  Aspirin and Ex-Lax and insulin do not work for everyone.  A simple shot of Novocain from the dentist does not work 100% of the time.  None of the drugs used to treat Peyronie's disease (verapamil, POTABA, cholchicine, etc.) work 100% of the time – most of them far, far from 100%.  

Did he use objective measurements to verify the results

Yes, to the extent that was possible.   Just as pain is not objective, but subjective, not everything studied in the medical area can be studied objectively.  I did the best I could under the circumstances I find myself – and the men with Peyronies Disease who find me.  The alternative would be to do nothing. There is currently too much "nothing" being done for Peyronies Disease.  

Is it better to do the best you can and work within certain reasonable limitations, or to do nothing and make no contribution to the body of Peyronies Disease knowledge and therapy?   I chose to do the best I can under the circumstances of having limited funds and reliance on limited access and unreliable cooperation from a worldwide community of men with Peyronies Disease.  

My efforts and the results of men who use the PDI concepts are not perfect, but nothing in life is 100%.  We are pleased with good progress with many cases of Peyronies Disease who use the PDI concepts.

If so why aren't the particulars of that data displayed in large bold flashing print

The results and data are prominently reported on the website as follows:      

"Of the 10 men participating in our research project:
    8 – saw moderate to significant improvement of curvature,
    2 – saw no progress with their curvature, and
    10 – (100%) saw moderate to marked improvement of sexual ability"

Has he even met enough Peyronies Disease patients in person during his life-time to comprise a decent study assuming he had the design criteria for such a study

I do not know what a "decent" number of Peyronie's disease patients are.  

In my early years practicing in holistic medical clinics I encountered men with Peyronies Disease periodically, but none of the MDs or I had much to offer them.  It was only after I developed my own Peyronies Disease that I threw myself into the subject for my own selfish reasons.  Since 2002 I have almost exclusively worked with Peyronies Disease cases from around the world.  I consult with 6-12 men daily via phone and email concerning Alternative Medicine treatment to increase their ability to heal and repair the Peyronies Disease lesion.  

Because I am conducting an Alternative Medicine website intended for men who are currently under the care of a medical doctor – a stipulation we make consistently throughout the PDI website – it is not necessary that I examine or diagnose each case.  When men come to me in the PDI website, they are already diagnosed.  

My first contact with most men I work with is through my book, "Peyronie's Disease Handbook."    This book presents a wide array of information to increase the odds of recovery from Peyronies Disease, but none is more important than teaching men how to determine the size, shape, density and surface quality of each scar they have.  Each man is instructed how to document this vital data for his own use; it is not necessary or practical that I personally do so. Subsequently, I spend considerable time and effort answering questions about Peyronies Disease care from around the world.   This is how I make contact with thousands of men with Peyronies Disease.  

In using Alternative Medicine the treatment effort is focused not to the condition, but to the individual needs of the person who has the condition to facilitate the best healing response can occur.   My purpose and effort is spent teaching men how to become an expert in their own personal condition to enable them to effectively manage their own Alternative Medicine rehabilitation.   If this can be accomplished then the body should demonstrate an increased ability to heal the Peyronies Disease, just as every MD hopes will happen during the initial six months of waiting.  

One of the reasons that men with Peyronies Disease are so distraught with their current state of affairs is that there is so little medical help available to them.  This is so because it has been put into our heads by the drug industry that we must wait for the drug industry to conduct multimillion dollar studies to save us from Peyronies Disease.  But, their research is slow and generally not forthcoming, and essentially non-existent for Alternative Medicine treatment because of its low profit potential.  I have worked with far too many men who speak of suicide because of their Peyronies Disease, or contemplate penis amputation because of multiple surgeries that have gone bad, or families that are ruined – because they fail to recognize that there are additional options available other than drugs and surgery.  

The body is designed to heal itself.  Some cancers heal without medicine.  Broken bones, pneumonia and tuberculosis can heal without medicine.   Why should it seem so impossible or crazy that a man can heal his own Peyronies Disease?  All MDs know that the body can heal Peyronies Disease, right?  If not, then what is "come back in six months and we will see if your Peyronies Disease goes away" all about?   When a man has his Peyronies Disease just go away during that first 6-12 months that is an example of the body healing the Peyronies Disease scar, right?  A lucky percent of men have their Peyronies Disease just go away without doing anything about it.  That is why MDs tell men to return later to see if the Peyronies Disease did not just spontaneously resolve – heal – itself.  For this reason my direct contact and intervention is not what Alternative Medicine treatment is all about.  A medical doctor who prescribes drugs or contemplates surgery certainly needs to have his/her patient in the office; my work is different.

The goal of the PDI concept is both simple and complex:  To discover what a man must do to boost his immune response to encourage his Peyronies Disease to heal.  With this idea in mind, my PDI website advocates various synergistic methods to determine if it is possible to help men heal their own Peyronies Disease scar.   This can be done in a long distance situation with the owner of the Peyronies Disease scar in control of his situation, not me.

Does he just assume this might work, and if so why didn't he clearly state that  

I state my case clearly in my website.  For a review of the information concerning theory, philosophy and methods for Alternative Medicine treatment of Peyronie's disease, as well as information about the gentle manual penis stretching method, I invite you to visit the Peyronie's Disease Institute website.   The gentle manual penis stretching method I developed is just one small part of the overall approach a man can use to help his body heal his Peyronies Disease problem.  

Because Peyronie's disease is such a complex and tenacious problem to treat it is necessary, in my experience, to use a wide variety of therapies to address the sluggish immune response from as many different angles and levels as possible – all at the same time.  PDI does not present magic cures and guaranteed results, only hard work and extended therapy to stimulate and support a healing response that takes time and reinforcement to complete.

The entire thing just leaves me shaking my head !

I hope this information helps.  TRH  

[ohno]

Two questions:
What does it mean that you "subsequently treated myself successfully"? (no more curvature, plaque,etc?) and

How could anyone who has suffered from this disease try to profit from it? (ie, why not tell us all on this site how to try to help each other - that's what people do here. Could your withholding helpful information be considered aiding and abetting suicide?)

[Tim468]

"After finding this forum today I decided to join."
and
"I can see tim now, looking up my ip address to verify I am in MA.  Gotta poke fun at tim's ballet detective work."

Right....

BostonBlacky

If you are someone who has come back and are here again, then say it. If you are new, you picked a couple of buried and esoteric things to comment on! Other than noting that you were obviously a former member returning, I could not care less who you are. But it is of interest that you are not honest at the outset. It also appears that you have an axe to grind.

Hohum

[Tim468]

TRH,

Thank you for coming here.

I think the principal context in which you are viewed is as someone trying to make a buck, and when that appears to be the starting point, all the rest starts to become suspicious.

Of course, one could say that about anything - a scientist publishing in a peer reviewed journal is trying to get promoted, or a better grant. And so on.

But there is a theme of grandiosity in your claims that is only somewhat tempered by your post here, which does not read as much like an ad for the lottery, as do your website claims.

The Central Limit Theorem of statistics suggests an answer to the dilemma we discuss here.

Ten men is not enough - and this is the central dilemma faced in such research. The next ten men might end up with totally different results, and this is the result to many, many promising theories and practices advocated in the past (ie vitamin E, interferon, etc).

So your ideas may make sense, but that does not make them either correct or even close.

And my son is "in discussion" with his English teacher regarding his unfinished homework - according to him. But he is still grounded until it's done.

In a word, one cannot sell or advocate a treatment without having proved it works and expect to get praised here unequivocally or without both criticism and some cynicism.

Tim

[therazy]

Greetings ohno,
In answer to your questions:

Two questions:
What does it mean that you "subsequently treated myself successfully"? (no more curvature, plaque,etc?)

Yes, I treated myself with Alternative Medicine concepts and eventually all three scars were absorbed and my compound distortion of 35 degrees to the left, 10 degrees up with a counterclockwise torque was eliminated.  Since that time I have no remnants of Peyronie's disease.  

How could anyone who has suffered from this disease try to profit from it? (ie, why not tell us all on this site how to try to help each other - that's what people do here. Could your withholding helpful information be considered aiding and abetting suicide?)

I suppose the answer is for the same reason that you must earn a living by being paid for the work you do.  I have chosen to earn a living telling people about using Alternative Medicine to beat their Peyronies Disease.

If a urologist developed Peyronies Disease, and had a surgeon do a Nesbit procedure on him, would you then expect that urologist to not charge for the Nesbit surgeries he did from that point forward?  I think not.

In your last comment you suggest I am withholding information about Peyronies Disease treatment. Each day of the last eight years I have spent a great amount of time, effort and money to explain in detail how I was able to help myself resolve my Peyronies Disease problem, as well as offer help to those who wish to attempt to do the same.   Detailed treatment information is freely available to anyone who wants to visit my website, sign up for my monthly newsletter, or read my blog.  Each day men use my toll-free number to call from around the world wanting information about their Peyronies Disease treatment; these phone calls last from five minutes to an hour.  Each day I write many long and detailed email replies and blog posts to Peyronies Disease questions.  I do not change anyone for the hundreds of hours I spend each year offering personal consultations to the many Peyronies Disease men and women in need.  

Even though you might not have come across any of my information before now, I have been involved with spreading the word about Alternative Medicine Peyronies Disease treatment for many years.  On a daily basis I address an audience of people who wish to use a non-drug and non-surgical approach to Peyronie's disease.   The only reason I submitted a post to the Peyronie's Disease Society was to expand upon a few points brought up by Hawk that I thought needed correction and clarification; he was kind enough to allow me to do so.

No one who ever asked me a question through my website, newsletter or forum, or read my books, could possibly accuse me of withholding my thoughts and opinions about Peyronie's disease treatment.  TRH  

[chiguy]

Has anyone on this board ever utilized Dr. Herazy's treatments and if so, was the program successful?

[therazy]

Greetings Old Man,

Thank you for your thoughtful inquiry about my opinion of the VED.  I realize there can be a difference of opinion amongst well-intended people.  I am not presenting this information to you as a statement of absolute truth about Peyronies Disease treatment, because at this point there doesn't seem to be any.  I only wish to present my reasons based on my personal and professional experiences, training  and education.  

TRH:

Would you care to explain further why you do not recommend treatment/therapy using the VED?

I have had Peyronies Disease for over 56 years now, tried just about any and everything throughout those years up to and including topical X-ray treatments (45 to be exact) with no results.

After introduction of the VED after a radical prostatectomy in 1995, the VED was RXd for the resulting impotency due to non nerve sparing surgery (not available at that time). After a year of a protocol that my uro and I worked out, the Peyronies Disease disappeared and it is now in remission.

I work with that local urological group by demonstrating use of the VED for Peyronies Disease with some of their patients. So far, there has been remarkable results with these men. VED therapy is a safe and viable method of therapy for Peyronies Disease if it is done with common sense and caution to preclude any further trauma.

So, please elaborate a bit more on why you do not see fit to recommend VED therapy for Peyronies Disease.

There are several reasons I hold this opinion to not advocate the use of the VED for Peyronie's disease:

1.  Many men over the years have written and told me they directly trace their Peyronies Disease back to use of a VED.  This is not necessarily from repeated use (although I have reports of that, also), but from a single use of the VED.  These men state they did not overuse or abuse the device.  Afterward the penis was either bruised or painful, or both, and soon thereafter they demonstrated telltale signs and symptoms, and were diagnosed with Peyronies Disease.  

Although it does happen, I do not hear of many people who are pleased with VED results; from my experience, most people report no benefit or a negative experience of some type.  Part of this one-sided report I know is simply because the men who like the VED and benefit from it do not come to my website looking for alternatives.  I suppose it is the same way that men who use Alternative Medicine successfully, and have recovered from Peyronies Disease to the best of their ability, no longer visit forums such as this one.  Only those with poor responses continue to look for answers that might eventually lead them to discuss their problems with me.
     
2.  You offered your opinion that the VED is safe "if it is done with common sense and caution to preclude any further trauma."   That is just the reason, in my opinion, the VED is unsafe.  No VED user can tell ahead of time, with any reasonable degree of certainty or expectation, the level of vacuum force that is safe or unsafe until it is too late.  This would be like saying, "Nitroglycerine is safe if you do not shake it up too much."  Well, what is too much shaking of nitroglycerine, and what is too much VED vacuum force on a penis?  You won't know until you do damage.  Increased safety with the VED demands a decreased vacuum force, resulting in reduction of any potential effectiveness.  My opinion is that most men would want to be as aggressive as possible if the idea behind the VED is to stretch the tissue within.  This is where the problems can start.

3.  This next reason is actually related, but different from, your same statement given above that "VED therapy is a safe and viable method of therapy for Peyronies disease if it is done with common sense."   I am a man.  I know how this is, as we all do.  Men are often driven by urges and instincts that blind us from common sense when it comes to our genitals.  We see evidence of this in our politicians, business leaders, church leaders, teachers, entertainers, and sports stars and perhaps under our own roof, that men do not use a lot of common sense or restraint – or hardly any – when it comes to their penis.  

Why would Tiger Wood go catting around with scores of hookers and less beautiful women, and eventually risk the most lucrative and enjoyable sports career ever developed, when he is married to a Swedish model, the mother of his child?   It is my observation that this frequent lack of common sense and restraint in regard to sex and the penis is what drives men to use the VED to the excess that eventually injures the tissue.  Sure, the VED maker will warn about the dangers of overuse and abuse.  But when a man looks down to see himself looking larger than he has ever been in his life, I believe it is far too easy for most men to get carried away and overuse the VED.  I have heard these stories over and over.  Some get away without injury that results in Peyronies Disease, and others do not.  To my mind, it is not worth the risk, especially when you keep 4. in mind, next.          

4.  A few years back I was communicating heavily with the good people who make the Osbon SommaCorrect Vacuum Erection Device.  They market their VED as an erectile dysfunction device and wanted to market it also as a Peyronies Disease treatment device.  They needed some positive medical research to support that claim, so they were doing research with, as I best recall, the University of Michigan School of Medicine.  I was monitoring that study because, if successful, it would make me rethink my position about  the use of the VED for Peyronies Disease.  I was also interested because it would open the door to include their particular VED as part of the Peyronie's Disease Institute lineup of Alternative Medicine therapies.  Bottom line:  The study was abandoned because of poor outcomes and the report of some injury.    

5.  Since a VED stretches all tissue within the vacuum, it can damage the veins of the penis, such as the deep and superficial dorsal penile vein.  This can happen if the valves of any veins are distorted in the stretching process.  As a result it is possible they will not close properly, causing a mild or severe, local or area-wide, reduction of the ability to become erect.  (I believe this is the reason the notorious porn legend, Johnny Wad Holmes, owner of a massive penis, could not develop an erection that could be inserted easily. It was not necessarily that he was too large, but that he was too soft. He had to guide and coax his member into place, lubricating himself with saliva from his fingers to help it in.  In many scenes his frustration with himself is visible.   Rumors are that many of the close-up shots of intercourse in his movies were a stunt double.)  So, even if the VED helps develop a kielbasa size organ, there is a serious risk it would have difficulty becoming erect.            

6.  When used conservatively, the VED will develop only a partial semi-hard erection at best.  Attempting to insert or have active intercourse with a partial erection is dangerous for anyone – and could be a total catastrophe for a man with Peyronies Disease.   The problem is that a partial erection is essentially weak and unstable, leading to the potential for buckling and sudden bending during the rigors of active sex.  This sudden bending is how many cases of Peyronies Disease begin; if a man already has Peyronies Disease this could easily aggravate an already bad situation.  

7.  Take a thick rubber band, and cut out a small part of it in the middle so that you now have a thin section between the two thicker sections. Now, what happens when you pull on that rubber band?   Most – if not all – of the stretch that occurs in this modified rubber band will occur in the thinner, weaker part. The thicker uncut portion will not stretch because the thinner part participates almost completely in the stretching action.  This is also why paper towels and stamps will tear along the perforation.   What does this have to do with the VED?   A lot.  The scars of a penis with Peyronies Disease are fibrous and dense when compared to the other normal penile tissue.  This is why bending and all kinds of distortion occur when a man with Peyronies Disease develops an erection – the scar tissue does not stretch as the rest of the penile tissues.  So in this way, the scar is thicker and less flexible, and the normal healthy penile tissue by comparison is more thin and flexible – just as in the rubber band mentioned above.  

When a VED – or a mechanical penis stretcher – attempts to stretch the penis and the Peyronies Disease scar that might be present within it, in my opinion, it is only healthy and normally flexible tissue that will participate in the stretch and not the thicker and less flexible scar materials.  It is my further opinion that the only tissue being stretched by the VED – or the mechanical penis stretchers – is healthy non-Peyronies Disease tissue.  If this were not the case, then paper towels and postage stamps would not tear at their perforations. I believe this is simple physics in action, and the explanation for the old saying, "A chain will break at its weakest link."  After using the VED – or a mechanical penis stretcher – you might have a larger organ, but it will still have Peyronies Disease scars within it because the more flexible tissues will always absorb the energy of the stretch before the fibrous tissues are able to participate.

8.  Of the many MDs who have consulted with me over the years about how to treat their own Peyronies Disease, I have never had one who said he used a VED.  I think this is perhaps a weak reason, but it is still an interesting observation.  
I hope this explains my reasons for my opinion about using a VED for Peyronie's disease.  I am grateful to read your reasons you believe in the use of the VED, as you do.  While I know there are men who say they benefit from the VED, I suppose I am lead to my position by a different series of experiences and information.    

Also, did your study include more than the ten men you mention in your post?

The small study we did to refine the manual penis stretching concept was with only ten men.  Part of the reason I felt that ten men was an adequate number of volunteers in this case was because we were not starting with a brand new idea.  We were only attempting to see if the proven information and standard soft tissue techniques could be applied to a new area for a new problem – and it seemed to work. The idea that soft tissue can be stretched using a very gentle traction "force" is well-known and established within the field of manual therapy.  Applying these concepts and techniques to Peyronie's disease was just a small side-step.  Since the results were generally favorable, there was no reason for more review.

Since offering the stretching video about a year ago, many men are now using the concept of gentle manual penis stretching.  Because these basic concepts and techniques were fairly well developed during that original work, only a few men have offered subsequent ideas for improvement or additional refinement of the technique.  As such, this treatment concept continues to be refined and improved over time, and has shown to be a good additional tool in our kit.  

Thank you for helping Peyronies Disease men with your VED work.  I am sure you are very gratified you can provide that kind of assistance.

I am sorry to hear of your prolonged and extensive search for help with your Peyronies Disease.  It is wonderful that you are still in the fight for recovery. I applaud you, Young Man, er, Old Man.

Dr. Herazy

[j]

Dr. Herazy, I note that you also own the domain dupuytrens-contracture.com so I assume you're the founder of the "Dupuytren's Contracture Institute" (although no actual names appear on that site).  Have you also cured yourself of Dupuytren's, using some combination of the products being sold through that site - such as this bundle, priced at $510.52:


- Integral E 400/400 (60)
- Gamma E 500 (60)
- Topical Vitamin E Oil
- Fundamental Sulfur (100)
- Nattokinase 1500 (120)
- Fibrozym (100)
- Dusa-Sal DMSO Gel (4 oz)
- Scar-X  (1 oz)
- PABA 500 (100)
- Quercetin-Bromelain (100)
- Genesen Pointers