Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease

[bodoo2u]

George,

Man that is some scary stuff you're talking. I have only been using Ben-Gay for three days but I could swear that the cord became thicker. I shrugged it off because I thought I was just imagining things. Whew! I hope I haven't set myself back.

I think I'm going to wait for the A---- stuff that's being tested by the small pharmaceutical company. I'm downright afraid to try anything else.  

[Liam]

BD2,

I seriously doubt BenGay for 3 days can cause any damage other than some possible skin irritation.  Having said that, I still have hope for the collagenase from Auxilium.

George and other adventurous men,

I've been thinking about Adolf's Meat Tenderizer (seriously, no pun intended).  It works for jellyfish stings.  I'M NOT KIDDING!   I know it sounds funny.   Any thoughts before I give it a go (I do plan to research first.  I believe it is an enzyme from the papaya).

Liam

[jtl4661]

I have ED and a 90 degree curve. The uro says to do an implant to fix both I was willing to I just found out I have to go in for back surgery again as my fusion didn't take i never had Peyronies Disease or ED until i had a catherder inserted for my 1st operation shortly after that i developed Peyronies Disease 90 degree curve. I believe the trauma was from a Foley catheter. Yet it is hard to prove thats what caused it. I have been looking for studies to see if it can cause Peyronies Disease When i was Catheter it was so painful I made them remove it then when it was removed a small Guss of blood came out 10 to 12 weeks later i got the pain from an erection for about 12 weeks or so then the pain left. and instantaneously I was left with a 90 degree curve haven't been able to have sex since. I think I was traumatize by the hospital staff I wish there was a study on the case of this by catheration. Like i was saying i don't want to have the pump installed yet as this back has to be redone and heal as I have to be cauterized again on June 5th for my refusing surgery and don't want to have anymore problem's. so i guess what i was asking is the ved will work for me maby? and were do i get one?
thanks for any input on the ved and cause of Peyronies Disease and ED
Jtl4661

[Liam]

Peyronies is something you have.  It is not caused by a trauma.

You can have asthma.  Something like running or eating may make you have an asthma attack.  But, it didn't cause the asthma.

If a person had high blood pressure and didn't know it and was out on a hot day playing golf, he may have a stroke.  The heat and stress may have triggered the stroke THAT DAY.  It didn't cause the stroke.

The catheter may have "started the ball rolling", but the "ball" was already there.  If catheters caused Peyronie's, many more men would have it.


The VED MAY work.  One other thought.  Pain can cause ED.  Stress can cause ED.  Peyronies Disease can cause ED.  You seem to have a triple whammy.  I think it is very reasonable to hold off with the impant until after you've had time to heal from the back surgery.  In the meantime, try the VED.  Its like chicken soup, couldn't hurt.

Note:  Ok, I can poke holes in my analogies so I know y'all can.  Hopefully they are sufficiently illustrative for my purpose.  

[George999]

In regards to trauma and Peyronies, I have been told by doctors that they have treated men with fairly severe damage to their penises which went on to heal quite normally with no Peyronies resulting from the injury.  Liam is correct, trauma itself is not sufficient to cause Peyronies.  Peyronies results from a failure of the normal process of healing.  And in fact, there are some cases where Peyronies itself simply goes away without treatment.  What is really not clear is whatever the background factor is that is preventing Peyronies from resolving itself.  That is the big unknown at this point.  And, as Liam noted, the use of catheters is quite routine.  I had a catheterization years ago and no Peyronies resulted from that.  But it is entirely possible that the procedure triggered the Peyronies that was already staged to happen.  And if you had not had the catheterization, something else fairly minor could have triggered the same process later on.  In my case, I initially had Peyronies affecting both of my corpus cavernosa.  One healed to the point that it is now completely normal, the other didn't.  Go figure.  We just don't know a whole lot of answers in regards to this affliction yet.

[jtl4661]

Thanks for your input I Guess I just want to blame someone or something. The past 2 years have been hell with the Peyronies Disease developing and the back surgery seems like i hit 45 and going down hill from there. You say the VED might help were do i get one? do you suggest a certain Type?
Thanks Again
JTL4661

[Tim468]

Hi jtl4661

You are asking some pretty fundamental stuff and I think it would do you a world of good to do some "catching up" on the boards. Because there are so many posts, some of them have been synthesized in the
"Beginner's Board" ( https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/board,18.0.html )

You really ought to go and read there. Every question that you are asking has been answered already there - it will save some confusion for you and time for you and us alike.

Tium

[Liam]

This site lists some of the uses of Papain (along with chymopapain)


Medically Valid Uses:
Papain is used commercially as a meat tenderizer and is available in grocery stores.

Papain is also available as a digestive aid. It may be found in combination with other enzymes such as hemicellulase, which helps break down cellulose from plants and prevent excessive gassiness.

Papain will digest non-living protein materials (fibrin, dead white blood cells, serum) but will not damage living tissue. This makes it excellent for debriding wounds. Papain is therefore available in topical ointments (Rx only) that are used to remove dead tissue and fibrin from skin lesions. Topical papain preparations are used for bed sores (decubitus ulcers), burns, diabetic ulcers on the feet and legs, and varicose ulcers.

Papain, usually in the form of meat tenderizer, can be used to treat jellyfish stings and some insect stings such as bee stings. The proteolytic action of papain quickly digests the venom responsible for the stinging, pain and inflammation. To be most effective, the papain must be applied immediately. Lifeguards on ocean beaches often keep a bottle of meat tenderizer handy just for jellyfish stings.

Recently, papain has been added in low concentration to contact-lens cleaning solutions. It removes the proteinaceous film that clings to the contacts and extends their wearing time.


Source: https://www.stjohn.org/HealthInfoLib/swArticle.aspx?19,Papaya


It is also an ingredient in Rembrandt toothpaste. ( http://www.dentalarticles.com/reader/otc5.htm )

Chymopapain injection is used to "dissolve" herniated discs. ( http://www.medicinenet.com/chymopapain-injection/article.htm )

There is not sufficient information here to smear Adolf's on your penis.  However, it has piqued my curiosity.

I only printed the superficial information.  There is much more out there.  I am still trying to digest it all. :::BURP:::

[Hawk]

Those meat hammers with the pointy surface also work very well.......for meat tenderizing that is, not for Peyronies Disease.

[Liam]

Call it "Extreme Massage"  It would be Pa Pa Pa Painful!

I also keep one handy for my computer!


I can't help but notice similarities with collegenase (papain not the hammer)

[bodoo2u]

Did anyone other than George and I try camphor for any length of time? I was more encouraged by George's experience of straightening than I was about the further hardening of his scar tissue. I have yet experience any straightening, but I'm going to keep trying for a while.

George, what happened to your straightened curve after you stopped using the Ben-Gay. Did it return to its previous angle, did it stay where it was, or did it become worse?

[meanmrmustard]

to anyone suffering skin irritation i recommend using pure olive-oil. I don´t have scientific links at hand, but it´s said to literally "completely renew skin within 2 yrs", and being 100% natural it could be a good alternative to complicated creams with dozens of ingredients

[Hawk]

it´s said to literally "completely renew skin within 2 yrs",

I am sure olive oil is fine but the I consider the renewing claim as bogus.  The skin completely and literally renews without anything.  Skin cells, like hair, like bone, and all other organs, constantly slough off old cells and replace them with new cells. Our very skeletons are replaced several times in a normal life span.  Osteoporosis is the result of a flaw in this system where the cells are sloughed off faster than they are replaced.  This being said, any item can carry the claim that with use, we will be totally renewed.  

Maybe a good ad campaign would be:
"Drink Budweiser and you will have a totally new ears in just 3 years."

It even has a rhythm to it.

[George999]

Just for the record, at this point, if anything, my Peyronies symptoms are better than before using the TigerBalm/BenGay.  The curve MAY be less, one plaque may be reduced (the softer one, and the other plaque is very much improved (the harder one).  The "cord" which is actually the defining boundary between normal tunica tissue and not so normal, seems less pronounced.  I was concerned that the abnormal tissue was 'advancing', but that may have just been perception.  So much hinges on perception, and perceptions can be very deceiving with this condition.  I may actually give this another go at some point.  But I am continuing to 'do' a lot of other stuff at the same time.  I am really trying to target inflammation.  One thing I am trying to do is lower insulin levels (elevated insulin levels are inflammatory) by avoiding high glycemic foods and using cinnamon and grapefruit with low glycemic foods.  I am also targeting cortisol (elevated levels of cortasol can have an inflammatory effect in a similar way to insulin ie they cause the respective receptors to develop resistance).  I am achieving this by using a CNS suppressant and also a concoction to manipulate the receptors themselves (like cinnamon and grapefruit do with insulin receptors).  So my approach remains 'wholistic' rather than 'magic bullet' based.  By at this point I am actually somewhat pleased by what was seemingly left in the aftermath of the TigerBalm/BenGay.

[percival]

George
It could be that there was a combination effect between Tiger Balm and  the other supplements you take - it may have tipped the scales a bit in your case.
I am now trying a methyl salicylate product to see what happens. The odour is a drawback - as powerful as the camphor product. I don't expect a miracle, but who knows?
Regards,
Percival

[George999]

Percival, I know that Tim has tried Aspercreme and that didn't seem to work for him.  But, who knows?  As for the Camphor stuff, the only really dramatic effect it seemed to have for me was on the hardened plaque.  For some reason it really seemed to reduce that dramatically.  But the more we can document the things we try on this forum, the more information we will accumulate for others to mine out later and hopefully find useful.  So keep us informed on how things go with the methyl salicylate. -George  

[jtl4661]

I just askes a few simple questions!
the time and space you wasted wighting all that info down it would have been easier just to simply answer the question rather then insulting. I guess
I'll just give up on this site as not one of my simplest yes or no questions never get answered I am tired of this beating around the bush stuff see ya all later. I wont bother posting anymore as I seem to be a wast of everyones Time here even my time is being wasted. I look for a helpful site see you all later and goodluck all

[Tim468]

jtl:

"I just askes a few simple questions! The time and space you wasted wighting all that info down it would have been easier just to simply answer the question rather then insulting."

Dear JTL, I am a fan of accepting life on life's terms. Perhaps you are refering to me as "insulting" when I wrote: "You are asking some pretty fundamental stuff and I think it would do you a world of good to do some "catching up" on the boards. Because there are so many posts, some of them have been synthesized in the
"Beginner's Board" ( https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/board,18.0.html )

You really ought to go and read there. Every question that you are asking has been answered already there - it will save some confusion for you and time for you and us alike."

I could argue that instead of writing what you did, you might actually try reading the material that people have posted here. I was not "being insulting" when I posted what I posted. Rather, I am simply alerting you that many men here will not bother to respond to questions that suggest that the author of the questions has not read previous posts.

For instance, you asked: "You say the VED might help were do i get one? do you suggest a certain Type?"

The "where do I get one" answer has been posted here so many times - as recently as last month, that it is - to me - proof that you are not reading old posts if you have not noticed that.

Rather than retype out links to vendors of VEDs, or to discuss with you the pros and cons, I did give you information - I provided you with a link to read the answers for yourself.

You feel upset that you request was answered in a way that you did not expect. I do not feel it is my duty to "answer your questions" when the answers are already written out in detail on the beginners boards. I provided a link for you, even though the beginners boards are clearly marked as worth reading on arrival.

If you want a "helpful site" - you have one right here. However, this site tends to help those who are willing to help themselves. I hope you stick around to find this out for yourself.

Tim

[Liam]

There is so much information here.  The best tool is the search function.  I read previous posts for about a month before I ever posted (that was many posts ago).  The answers (there are many) are 10 seconds away.  You will learn far more than any one member will ever tell you in a single reply.

This is the reason we have limited topics.  It is easier to find what you are looking for.

Also, realize its hard to tell "tone of voice" in a written post.  Sometimes we are direct when making a point due to limited space and time.  If you think you've been slighted, put it aside.  There are too many benefits from this forum to let hurt feelings get in the way.  Buck up!

Liam

[Hawk]

JTL,


I too must chime in.  I think in 2 years 1000 members and 9000 posts, you are the first person to even imply that you found this forum to be unhelpful.  We get up to ten new members in a day. What would make this forum much LESS helpful is if each new member asked the same questions and we retyped the same answers.  No person really interested in helping themselves and researching their Peyronies Disease would want to wade through the same repetitive dialog day after day.  

That is why those that you criticize have worked thousands of hours without pay to have a "Newly diagnosed board", have organized this forum into topics, and taken care of all the other tasks that make the Peyronies Disease Society forum and website possible.  

Added to our effort, you must take some responsibility to use the tools we have provided and not wear your feelings on your sleeve.  If you need clarification on any posts or have a slight twist to a question, or need some individual input, just ask.  Answering questions we have already provided easily accessible answers to over 100 times, just serves no purpose for you or the forum.  If you ask one those questions, you will be directed to the where those answers can be found.   Thats how it works.

I hope this helps.

Good luck
 

[Hawk]

It has come up a time or two on this forum as well as on the old BTC.  I know of no studies and no real anecdotal reports either good or bad.  The posts I have read have been limited to conjecture that : Ice helps inflammation, so ice will probably help Peyronies Disease.  I actually used hot and cold for a very short time but since there is little other than conjecture, here is my conjecture:

Ice reduces blood flow.  Blood flow seems to be the main objective of every other treatment.  Ice is bad.

[Liam]

I've found a few mentions of cryotherapy (not quite the same as an ice pack, I know) in relation to frozen shoulder and Dupuytren's.  Nothing has led me to anything profound.

My thought, which is nothing more than that, is the cold may cause a reduction in the integrity of the extracellular matrix of the fibrotic tissue.  If cold treatment is followed by VED or traction, reshaping may be facilitated.  My concern is damage to surrounding tissue.  

I will continue to investigate and ask questions.   <--- This is me with my FBI shades for investigating.

I still think chymopapain should be researched, for Peyronies Disease as well as other fibrotic conditions, by someone in the medical community.  

BTW, No reply from our French doctor about the Leriche procedure.

Mr. Liam Emoticon  

[voulezvous]

Thanks for your follow up on the Leriche procedure (& for your effort). Is there any other means of "tracking down" this? I can't believe that we have no way of obtaining verifiable information.

[Liam]

The docs name I was given is Vincent Delmas.  If someone would like to try to email him in French, I will pm his email address to you.  You can find it on the web.  I promised not to publish it, though.

[Hawk]

Obviously anyone can contact this doctor but I think it would be good if a well thought out letter such as the one Liam sent, was sent in French.  I would think we would have more chance of getting a response as an organization representing many, than many individuals trying to solicit information individually.  Liam's letter could easily be translated and resent.

[Hawk]

Any French translators?

[jon]

Any French translators?

I know a guy who speaks french, I've asked him if he would translate an email into French for me. I'm waiting to hear back from him. So if someone wants to draft up the letter/email in the meantime that'd be great.

[Liam]

I sent you a PM.  

MERCI BEAUCOUP

[Liam]

Thanks Jon!!!!  

This went out just minutes ago:

Merci beaucoup pour votre temps. Dr. Boccon Gibod référé moi à tu. Je
être vite et direct.

Je suis regard pour l'information  sur Leriche technique pour La
Peyronie la maladie.  J'ai vu et ai lu une traduction du un 2004
papier explication Du la technique.  Est là plus matériaux concernant ce procédé?

En tant que toi pourrait avoir deviné, Je avoir cette maladie.  Je
moderate un Peyronie la maladie  web forum à
https://www.peyroniesforum.net.  Il y a significatif intérêt cette
technique.  Mais, tous nous avoir est le une papier de 2004.   Quand
Dr. Boccon Gibod a donné moi votre nom, et le dit moi tu régulièrement
il execute ceci procédé J'étais enthousiasmé!

Là être beaucoup Européen membres de le forum aussi bein que le'homme
ici dans le United States voudrais très heureux à mouche à La France
pour aide avec ceci les condition.  Nous avoir approximativement 1000
membres et être les la plupart active sur internet.  Le forum les la
plupart 1000,000 unique coups.

Quelque chose vous envoyer sera apprécié!

Je pas non éditer qui éditer n'importe quoi en entrent en contact
l'information sans votre permission ET faire ainsi.  Cependant, plait
savoir ce là sont beacoup le'homme désespéré pour cette information.

Merci beaucoup pour votre aide!

Salute,

[Hawk]

Very well put Liam  

[Liam]

This is another example of what we can get done when the need arises.  Jon took the email and had it translated in an hour or two.  WOW!!!  

Teamwork!

Y E S!!!!!

[George999]

I just noted this in the news.  I don't think it would apply to any of us around here, but since I introduced the use of Bengay to this forum, I feel a duty to post this:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/06/09/national/a052733D38.DTL

- George

[percival]

George
Thanks for the warning. I tried a small amount of cream based on methyl salicylate. It stung so badly I have not continued with it! No chance of an overdose therefore.
Percival

[phil]

All:

I've had Peyronies Disease for almost 3 yr and tried most everything, and been to specialists.  My curve has stabilized and I have two plaques close to the surface.  Most recently  I've tried very small amounts of Aspercreme directly on the skin above the plaque.  Just a dab, not bigger than a pencil eraser.  Seems to help a little bit.  I've noticed the plaques seem  a bit smaller.  Can't be sure.  I don't think the amount I'm using can hurt, and maybe help.  I've read some reports that the substance does penetrate.  Anybody else have any experience with this?

[Liam]

I am only half joking when I say, "Head On...Apply directly to the foreskin."

You know, the Ben Gay seemed to work for George.  Now Aspercreme has a good report.  Who knows?

Liam

[dahc]

I've wondered if anyone had tried aspercreme, it makes some sense. I was in the drugstore this past weekend looking for a moisturizer to use on my penis between stretching seasons and I saw a product called ScarZone to diminish scars on the skin. Since it had moisturizers and an SP15 sunscreen  , I decided to buy it. Will it penetrate enough to have an effect on the plaque, probably not. But since I am using a moisturizer anyway....

C

[George999]

Certainly, it would seem these things would be helpful.  But I have heard from at least one person who has tried aspercreme with no apparent benefit.  That doesn't mean it couldn't be helpful for someone else.  In my case, I identified the benefit as having come from camphor.  That benefit was limited to actually reducing the size of the hard plaque to almost nothing.  However, over time, it has gradually reestablished itself.  That mind boggling plaque reduction was the only benefit I saw, all other symptoms remained pretty much unaffected.  I noticed no real benefit at all from methyl salicylate (closely related to aspirin), the other Bengay component.  As for ScarZone, I really don't know what is in it.  The manufacturer doesn't disclose that information on their website and that alone raises a red flag for me.  I really get suspicious when vendors make aggressive claims about a product and tell me absolutely zero about what it contains.  But that is just me.  I am currently curious about neem oil.  Some people have gotten a good effect from emu oil.  Some day I will get around to trying neem oil.  - George

[Liam]

There was some discussion about this under "Progression of Peyronies Disease".  Here is a link FYI.  For brevity I only copied how it is used.  

How do I use it?
Before you use this medicine, rub the ulcer or wound gently with a gauze pad soaked in sterile saline or Dakin's solution. Then rinse the wound with sterile saline solution. If you have any questions, talk to your health care provider or pharmacist.

If the wound is infected (has redness, warmth, or pus in or around it), apply an antibacterial ointment such as Neosporin. You can buy Neosporin without a prescription. If the infection continues, stop using the collagenase and ask your health care provider what to do.

Apply the collagenase directly to deep wounds with a wooden tongue depressor. Apply it to shallow wounds using a sterile gauze pad. Then cover the wound with a dressing, and tape the dressing securely. Remove any excess ointment each time you change the dressing.

Stop using collagenase when all dead tissue has been removed and healing is taking place.

source:  http://www.fairview.org/healthlibrary/content/ma_collagen_ma.htm






And about collagenase in general:

Collagenases, enzymes that break down the native collagen that holds animal tissues together, are made by a variety of microorganisms and by many different animal cells1. The most potent collagenase is the "crude" collagenase secreted by the anaerobic bacteria Clostridium histolyticum. The original 1953 fermentation and purification process described by MacLennan, Mandl and Howes2 was first adopted by Sigma-Aldrich and eventually improved upon for higher activity products. "Crude" collagenase refers to the fact that the material is actually a mixture of several different enzymes besides collagenase that act together to break down tissue. It is now known that two forms of the collagenase enzyme are present3, 4. With a few exceptions different commercial collagenase are all made from C. histolyticum, or are recombinant versions where Escherichia coli expresses a gene cloned from C. histolyticum.

source:  http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/Area_of_Interest/Biochemicals/Enzyme_Explorer/Key_Resources/Collagenase_Guide.html

[wiseguy]

Hey...
Does anybody have some info about "pentoxifylline injection". Maybe it just the same as taking the pills? Tried to goggle it but turned up with very few results - mostly Chinese. So didn't want to spend time investigating if someone else already done it...

Thanks

[Liam]

Why would you want to inject it?

[wiseguy]

Thanks for replying... (spelling warning - english isn't my native language)

just thought that it would be better to treat the disease locally so that the rest of the body didn't get any sideeffects or perhaps it would be more efficient and maybe it possible to take a higher dose. But you are probably right. Looking at the way pentox work it isn't possible to get a local effect..
just came to think about it when I say this link - but pentoxifylline injections is used as i treatment for ischemia
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17055358
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ischemia
just wanted to hear if anyone knew something about it.

[Liam]

Interesting stuff!!!  I'll look around for more references.  Maybe someone knows more.

Don't worry.  Your written English is better than some native English speakers I know.  

Liam

[MUSICMAN]

I know you guys will think I have gone over the deep end with this idea but this is it. Has the idea of injecting something into the scar tissue\plaque to increase the size been worked on? I'm thinking on the idea of how silicone was used to enlarge some body parts. I know silicone is a bad idea but used this just to explain the idea. If they use a graft surgery to lengthen the plaque maybe something injectable might work. Funny how when a person feels so hopeless, they can come up with ideas like this.

[Hawk]

The graft replaces the scar tissue so there would be no point.  There is nothing you can inject into a normal penis to make it larger.  When you consider penis structure, the idea is totally unworkable.  Putting bags of contained silicone in a breast is in no way a slightly similar concept.  If you could fill the penis with silicone or an implant, it does not change the limitations of the thin outer wall of the penis.

[not9inches]

Has anyone heard of or had acupuncture therapy? Ive read some on it. Just curious.....grasping at straws.

[Liam]

Has anyone heard of or had acupuncture therapy?

Verapamil injections    

[Grant]

I'm newly diagnosed-about 5 months ago-this disease is driving me crazy. I read about using a quarter or half pill of viagra every day. The viagra site mentions pill doses of 25, 50, and 100mg. What dosage of pill was being split.

[Hawk]

Grant,

Welcome to the forum.  I am glad you posted.

Grant, the daily Viagra dose is 25 - 50 mg which is 1/4 to 1/2 of a 100 mg Viagra.  I would strongly suggest that if you are planning on doing that to get a good L-arginine and a prescription for pentox.  These 3 together are informally referred to the PAV cocktail. The Viagra is by far the most expensive part of that combination.


Since these are "Oral Treatments" I will move these posts to that topic.

[Grant]

OK, I have a grasping at straws guestion. I've seen those commercials on TV about 'male enhancement' products. (Not that I put much stock in those products), but what ingredients do the makers of those products claim to have that increases penis size. It seems the only way to increase size would be to have the tissue swell and expand more than normal. Again, it's grasping at straws, but has anyone checked any of these products as a potential aid or treatment. It's a silly thought but I had to put it out there.

[Hawk]

Enzyte and such is nothing but nutrients like zinc and arginine, along with herbs like ginko and Korean gensing etc etc.  Nutrients cant change the size of a body part regardless of what smiling Bob implies on the commercials.  Many of these same nutrients are in a multi-vitamin.  Some of these ingredients may, and no doubt do have impact on blood flow and may increase firmness of erections since some are vaso-dilators and blood thinners.

You are much further ahead to just buy arginine or ginko or Horney Goatweed, straight so you know how much you are taking.  These "specialized marketing products" have proprietary formulas that do not reveal how much of a specific nutrient the pill has.  They often only have very small amounts of the nutrient or herb you want, and they may have lots of things you do not want.

No known substance whether oral, IV, or injected directly into the organ tissue - whether prescription, or over-the- counter, can increase the size of a mature penis.  If one is ever developed, you won't have to ask and won't have to look for it.  Every guy you meet will have a bottle and the news media will be recounting daily reports of stock prices and multi-billionaires.