Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease

[iceblue]

This link about fibrotic processes may or may not be of interest.

Clinical and Experimental Dermatology

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2230.1994.tb02690.x?prevSearch=allfield%3A%28fibrotic+process%29

[George999]

What it really to note in this study is the fact that when the causative factor (bacteria) is eliminated, the tissue suddenly heals normally.  This is evidence to me that fibrosis is NOT irreversible.  Reversal in fact, only requires that the causative factor be removed in order to proceed.  In the case of Peyronies, we need to identify those causative factors and remove them.  Many of us have been very concerned with TGF-Beta-1, and with good reason.  But we have to remember that there may be larger factors behind the generation of the TGF-Beta-1, and if those factors could be addressed the TGF-Beta-1 might well go away on its own.  And by this, I am suggesting that a key factor in Peyronies may well be some sort of systemic metabolic imbalance, and that that same imbalance may, in fact, be behind a number of enigmatic diseases generally associated with aging and/or poor health.

[Liam]

VEDs and traction, in theory, stretch and reshape.  I thought I would research some of the Peyronies Disease "cousins like Dupuytren's and Adhesive Capsulitis and try to find an analogous treatment.  I found this.  This is for discussion or FYI.  I don't think it is more than what it is.  

Idiopathic adhesive capsulitis. A prospective functional outcome study of nonoperative treatment.Griggs SM, Ahn A, Green A.
Shoulder Service, Brown University School of Medicine, Rhode Island Hospital, Providence, USA.

BACKGROUND: Idiopathic adhesive capsulitis is a commonly recognized but poorly understood cause of a painful and stiff shoulder. Although most orthopaedic literature supports treatment with physical therapy and stretching exercises, some studies have demonstrated late pain and functional deficits. The purpose of this study was to evaluate the outcome of patients with idiopathic adhesive capsulitis who were treated with a stretching-exercise program. METHODS: Seventy-five consecutive patients (seventy-seven shoulders) with phase-II idiopathic adhesive capsulitis were treated with use of a specific four-direction shoulder-stretching exercise program and evaluated prospectively. The initial evaluation included the recording of a detailed medical and orthopaedic history and assessment of pain, range of motion, and function. The outcome evaluation included assessment of pain, range of motion, and function; completion of the Disabilities of the Arm, Shoulder, and Hand (DASH) Questionnaire; and completion of the Short Form-36 (SF-36) Health Survey. The mean duration of follow-up was twenty-two months (range, twelve to forty-one months). One patient died prior to the final evaluation, and three patients were lost to follow-up. RESULTS: Sixty-four (90 percent) of the patients reported a satisfactory outcome. Seven (10 percent) were not satisfied with the outcome, and five (7 percent) underwent manipulation and/or arthroscopic capsular release. The outcomes of the patients who did not have manipulation or capsular release were evaluated. There were significant improvements in the scores for pain at rest (from a mean of 1.57 points before treatment to a mean of 1.16 points at the final evaluation; p < 0.001) and pain with activity (from a mean of 4.12 points before treatment to a mean of 1.33 points at the final evaluation; p < 0.0001). On the average, active forward elevation increased 43 degrees, active external rotation increased 25 degrees, passive internal rotation increased eight vertebral levels, and the glenohumeral rotation arc at 90 degrees of abduction increased 72 degrees (p < 0.00001). The number of "yes" responses to the Simple Shoulder Test increased from a mean of 4.1 (of a possible twelve) to a mean of 10.75 (p < 0.00001). Despite the significant improvements and the high rate of patient satisfaction, there were still significant differences in the pain and motion of the affected shoulder when compared with those of the unaffected, contralateral shoulder (p < 0.00001). At the final outcome evaluation, the DASH scores demonstrated limitations when compared with known population norms, whereas the profiles of the SF-36 were comparable with those of age and gender-matched control populations. Prior treatment with physical therapy and a Workers' Compensation claim or pending litigation were the only variables that were associated with the eventual need for manipulation or capsular release. Male gender and diabetes mellitus were associated with worse motion at the final evaluation. Patients with a greater severity of pain with activity at the initial evaluation had significantly lower DASH scores at the final evaluation, and patients with lower initial scores on the Simple Shoulder Test had comparatively lower scores on the Simple Shoulder Test at the outcome evaluation. CONCLUSIONS: The vast majority of patients who have phase-II idiopathic adhesive capsulitis can be successfully treated with a specific four-direction shoulder-stretching exercise program. Although measurable limitations and deficiencies were noted at the outcome evaluation, these appeared to be acceptable to most of the patients and did not affect their general health status. Patients with more severe pain and functional limitations before treatment had relatively worse outcomes. More aggressive treatment such as manipulation or capsular release was rarely necessary, and the efficacy of early use of these treatments should be further studied.
PMID: 11057467 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related LinksInfluence of comorbidity on self-assessment instrument scores of patients with idiopathic adhesive capsulitis. [J Bone Joint Surg Am. 2002] PMID: 12107317 Arthroscopic release for chronic, refractory adhesive capsulitis of the shoulder. [J Bone Joint Surg Am. 1996] PMID: 8986657 An evaluation of the effects of the extent of capsular release and of postoperative therapy on the temporal outcomes of adhesive capsulitis. [Arthroscopy. 2005] PMID: 16171636 Arthroscopic capsular release for the treatment of refractory postoperative or post-fracture shoulder stiffness. [J Bone Joint Surg Am. 2001] PMID: 11701791 Arthroscopic capsular release for stiff shoulders: effect of etiology on outcomes. [Arthroscopy. 2003] PMID: 12522401 See all Related Articles...
Source:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Display&dopt=PubMed_PubMed&from_uid=17356153    #11

[learn4life]

Anyone had any experiences with the herbal mixture treatments below ?

Im currently working on the modified Thackers formula with Vitamin E instead of
the ACV. I had pretty good results with the thackers and also the Vitamin E
massage so thought I'd give this a shot.


http://www.planetherbs.com/showcase/docs/PEYRONIEsDISEASE.html

PEYRONIE'S DISEASE

By Michael Tierra OMD, AHG founder

Peyronie's disease is characterized by mild to severe curvature of the penis. It is estimate that approximately 1 to 2 men out of 100 are afflicted with this disease in North America with varying statistics in other regions of the world. The cause is not certain but it is believed to be the result of injury which in turn forms plaque or a hard lump on the penis thus it is also known as "Penile Nodulaton Syndrome." It begins with localized inflammation that can occur on any part of the penis where there is erectile tissue.

Symptoms may develop slowly or appear during the course of a day. In severe cases the hardened plaque can reduce flexibility and result in pain by forcing the penis to bend during an erection. Obviously this also makes sexual intercourse difficult, interfering with a couple's physical and emotional relationship and causing a profound lack of self esteem in the man.

Peyronie's can occur at any age. Hypertension and hypercholesterolemia can lead to a weakening of the vasculature of the penis and as a result susceptibility to injury during intercourse can in turn develop into Peyronie's.

Peyronie's is not dissimilar to Dupuytren's contracture, which is a cord-like thickening across the palm of one or both hands causing the 4th and 5th fingers to contract towards the palm. This is fairly common in Caucasian men over the age of 50; however there is no corollary between individuals with Dupuytren's and Peyronie's.

François de la Peyronie, a French surgeon, first described Peyronie's disease in 1743, though the problem was first described in print as early as 1687. Early medical texts commonly classified it as a form of impotence but in recent years it is commonly referred to as erectile dysfunction (ED). Actually while Peyronie's is associated with ED, currently it is medically regarded as only one aspect of the disease since not all cases of ED are Peyronie's.

Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) classifies it under the category of liver qi stagnation. This can in sequence because blood stagnation and finally transform into systemic phlegm stagnation characterized by lumps and nodules. Another category for some manifestations might be damp cold syndrome caused by spleen/kidney deficiency that descends to the penis where phlegm nodules are formed.
Treatments

1. Salvia Disperse Peyronie's Nodule Decoction (Danshen Sanjie Tang) warms the kidneys, disperses cold, tonifies the spleen, transforms damp, moves blood and opens the collaterals: Salvia 12g, scrophularia 12, sinapis 10, dang gui 10, dioscorea 10, luffa fiber 10, citrus seed 10, raw Rehmannia 10, cooked Rehmannia 10, zedoaria 10 cinnamon bark 6, milletia 20, lonicera stem 30.

For advanced age, impotence, premature ejaculation, add dipsacus, loranthus, cornus, cibotium curculigo; for abdominal distention and persistent desire to urinate, add lindera, akebia and succinum; for diarrhea, aversion to cold, swollen tongue with tooth marks, add atractylodes and poria; for obvious swelling and pain in the penis, add corydalis and melia; for stubborn hardening that does not respond to treatment (usually with a purplish tongue), add sparganum, prunella, persica and carthamus.
90 cases reported, 15 cured, 34 markedly improved, 13 improved, 9 without results (for 19 cases no data was obtained), overall effectiveness was assessed at 69% (The Journal of Traditional Chinese Medicine, May, 1985.

2. Formula for removing cold, blood and qi stagnation, and softening hardness.

Zedoary (E-Zhu) – pungent, bitter, warm enters liver and spleen channels, invigorates blood circulation, and removes stasis and pain, 9gm.  

Brassica seed (Bai jie zi) – pungent, warm, enters the lung and stomach, resolves phlegm and lumps and circulates qi, 9gms (crushed)

Litchi seed (Li zhi he) -regulates qi, disperses qi and cold stagnation in the liver channel - 15g (crushed)

Vacaria seed (Wang bu liu xing) pungent, sweet, neutral enters liver and stomach, invigorates blood, 9gms (crushed)

Persica seed (Tao ren) – sweet, bitter, neutral, enters, lung, liver and large intestine channels, moves blood, 9 gms

Bombyx (Jiang Can) – pungent, salty, neutral- enters lung and liver channel, subdues internal wind (antispasmodic), relives pain and resolves phlegm and nodulation – 10gms

Spargani (San leng) is pungent, bitter, neutral/cold, enters the liver and spleen, relives blood stagnation, invigorates qi and relieves pain. 9gms

Angelica sinensis tails (Dang gui) is sweet, pungent and warm, enters the liver, heart and spleen channels, moves blood, and relieves pain, 9gms.

Salvia miltiorrhiza (Dang shen) is bitter, slightly cool, enters the heart and liver channels. It invigorates blood, removes stasis and relieves pain.

Sargassum (Hai zao) is bitter, salty and cold, enters the lung, spleen and kidney, it softens lumps and hardenings – 15gms

Pteropus (Wu ling zhi) is salty, bitter and warm, and enters the liver and spleen, it eliminates blood stagnation and relieves pain – 9gms

Cat-tail pollen (Pu huang) is sweet, neutral and enters the heart and liver. It invigorates blood circulation, relieves stasis and pain.  – 9gms
Penis soaks

Make a decoction of lobelia, pteropus (Wu ling zhi), myrrh, frankincense, Brassica seed and prickly ash. Simmer one ounce in a pint of water 30 minutes, cool and strain. Wrap a cloth saturated with the tea around the penis twice daily for 30 minutes.

Following this one should directly apply an oil of vitamin E, castor and DMSO twice daily.  
Supplements

Take Vitamin E and Nattokinase daily.

[Tim468]

Interesting links. Many of the herbs listed do not have any clinical or even anecdotal evidence linking them to improvements in Peyronie's: even if it "makes sense" that they might help, I prefer to see some sort of evidence.

What do you mean by "having pretty good results"? I would love to hear how it is working for you.

Tim

[George999]

There are just so many promising Chinese herbal compounds out there that I would just love to try.  But, for me, the underlying problem with "just trying" various Chinese herbal compounds is epitomized by the dog and cat food fiasco.  The horrific problem with Chinese herbal solutions is the impossibility of knowing what kind of possibly deadly contaminates have been introduced, either by accident or otherwise, into the final product.  Fortunately, many of the more popular remedies are marketed by mainstream established health food vendors whom one would hope are testing their raw ingredients.  But many other second tier supplements are difficult to obtain and are available only through sources that don't lend themselves to a lot of trust.  So this has been my dilemma when it comes to making use of semi-exotic Chinese herbals.  I'm just to scared of what I stand to possibly lose to take the risk for what I might possibly gain.  Otherwise, it IS a rather attractive option.

- George

[Liam]

Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) classifies it under the category of liver qi stagnation. This can in sequence because blood stagnation and finally transform into systemic phlegm stagnation characterized by lumps and nodules. Another category for some manifestations might be damp cold syndrome caused by spleen/kidney deficiency that descends to the penis where phlegm nodules are formed.

Phlegm nodules?

swollen tongue with tooth marks

Which came first?

90 cases reported, 15 cured, 34 markedly improved, 13 improved, 9 without results (for 19 cases no data was obtained), overall effectiveness was assessed at 69%

Much like the results of PABA.


I guess I'm a skeptic.  Give me some real scientific data (which seems rare in the Peyronies Disease world).

Liam

[Liam]

This is not any new information.  It is a concise list of the major nonsurgical treatments.  

1: Eur Urol. 2006 Jun;49(6):987-97. Epub 2006 Mar 20.  Links
Comment in:
Eur Urol. 2006 Jun;49(6):946-7.
A critical analysis of nonsurgical treatment of Peyronie's disease.Hauck EW, Diemer T, Schmelz HU, Weidner W.
Department of Urology and Pediatric Urology, University Clinic Giessen and Marburg, Justus Liebig University Giessen, Germany. ekkehard.w.hauck@chiru.med.uni-giessen.de

OBJECTIVE: Because the efficacy of nonsurgical therapy of Peyronie's disease is controversial, this review analyses the current status of conservative therapy of Peyronie's disease. METHOD: A systematic survey on results of studies published as original papers in peer-reviewed journals is provided. RESULTS: Oral drug therapies include potassium para-aminobenzoate (Potaba), vitamin E, colchicine, tamoxifen, propoleum, acetyl-L-carnitine, and propionyl-L-carnitine. Verapamil, interferon-alpha2a and interferon-alpha2b, collagenase, cortisone, hyaluronidase, and superoxide dismutase are considered intralesional therapies that have had various degrees of success. Other treatments include local gels, iontophoresis, extracorporeal shock wave therapy, and radiation. CONCLUSION: This review analyses the current status of the conservative therapy of Peyronie's disease, because the efficacy of the nonsurgical therapy is controversial.

PMID: 16698449 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Source:  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16698449&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_DocSum

o/o Its the end of the world as we know it. Its the end of the world as we know it. o/o  -REM

Not listed are Pentox, L-arginine, and Viagra as well as some other favorites

CONCLUSION: This review analyses the current status of the conservative therapy of Peyronie's disease, because the efficacy of the nonsurgical therapy is controversial.

 DOH!

[Liam]

I found this interesting.  You judge the relatedness.  

http://www.regence.com/trgmedpol/surgery/sur94.html


Here is a little background:

Effects of scar tissue on back pain and leg pain
The formation of scar tissue near the nerve root (also called epidural fibrosis) is a common occurrence after back surgery—so common, in fact, that it often occurs for patients with successful surgical outcomes as well as for patients with continued or recurrent leg pain and back pain. For this reason, the importance of scar tissue (epidural fibrosis) as a potential cause of postoperative pain—commonly called failed back surgery syndrome—is controversial.

Scar tissue formation is part of the normal healing process after a spine surgery. While scar tissue can be a cause of back pain or leg pain, in and of itself the scar tissue is rarely painful since the tissue contains no nerve endings. Rather, the principal mechanism of back pain or leg pain is thought to be the binding of the lumbar nerve root by fibrous adhesions.
Source:  http://www.spine-health.com/topics/surg/scar/scar01.html

[Liam]

The Use of Betamethasone and Hyaluronidase Injections in the Treatment of Peyronie's Disease

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/tandf/suro/2000/00000034/00000006/art00004?crawler=true

[Tim468]

This again raises the question of the simple effect of needling the plaque having a good effect on it - are the drugs infused irrelevant?

Tim

[Liam]

Great point Tim.  All of the injections that have "limited" success have the needle going into the plaque in common.  The variable may well be the point(s) of insertion.  More strategically places punctures may have a more positive outcome (knock me out first please  ).

We are all familiar (I think) with needle aponeurotomy (NA) used to treat Dupuytren's.  

From the article on epidural fibrosis:

Finally, adhesions may be disrupted by manipulating the catheter at the time of the injection.

This should be looked at again.

[Tim468]

Well, some of the Peyronie's studies actually used placebo, and they improved but not as much (ie the first verapamil studies). So it may be a bit of both - but without a control group, it is impossible to tell.

Tim

[Liam]

I dug back in the forum and found this.  It is now almost 3 years later and I could not Google anything more on this technique.  Whats up with that?  I'll keep looking.


1: Prog Urol. 2004 Sep;14(4):586-9; discussion 588-9. Links
[Leriche technique for the treatment of La Peyronie's disease][Article in French]
Khouaja K, Delmas V, Boccon-Gibod L.
Clinique Urologique, Hopital Bichat, Paris. karimkhouaja@yahoo.fr

OBJECTIVE: The treatment of La Peyronie's disease comprises medical treatment during the inflammatory acute phase and surgical treatment at the stage of stabilization of the lesions. This technical report describes the Leriche technique for the treatment of the stable phase of La Peyronie's disease. OPERATIVE TECHNIQUE: Patients are operated on an outpatient basis under local anaesthesia, after localization of the plaque by intraoperative ultrasound of the penis with erection induced by physiological saline. A percutaneous tear of the plaque is performed with an 18 gauge needle. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Ten patients with a mean age of 58 years (range: 32-82 years) were operated for La Peyronie's disease between January 2002 and January 2004. They all presented with painless penile curvature on erection, but severe discomfort or impossibility of sexual intercourse. The patients were reviewed at 1 and to 3 months. The results were assessed in terms of the degree of penile straightening and resumption of sexual activity. RESULTS: Three patients obtained complete cure. Two patients gained sufficient penile straightening to allow sexual intercourse and recovery was insufficient to allow sexual intercourse for 3 patients, but the result was improved after a second or even a third attempt. The last 2 patients were classified as treatment failures and were treated by penile prosthesis in one case and by the Nesbit technique in the other case. The results observed at 1 month persisted at 3 months. CONCLUSION: The Leriche technique for the treatment of La Peyronie's disease is a simple, minimally invasive technique with satisfactory results. It does not compromise a subsequent procedure and does not present any short-term or long-term complications.

PMID: 15776920 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15776920&dopt=Abstract

[voulezvous]

Thanks for bringing this up, Liam.

I have been wondering about this as well. As a "newbie", I kind of figured that it was dismissed since I found few references on this site.

Can we have an update from someone out there?

[Liam]

I emailed Dr.Boccon-Gibod ,one of the authors of the paper, about the proceedure.  Hopefully I will hear back from him soon.  I chose him because I found a 2007 email address (I hope its correct).

We will see.

Liam

BTW, Do you speak French, Voulezvous?

[voulezvous]

Non.

The extent of my French (?) is:

Laissez Le Bon Temps Rouler!

[Hawk]

I am glad you sent that email Liam.  This deserves a follow-up.  In view of the initial results on the Leriche study and in view of the various injected agents that all show some results, one has to wonder how much of the positive effects of injectable agents is just the needle.  

Are the injection stats just a "hit or miss" Leriche technique.

[Liam]

Here is the email I sent:

Dr. Boccon-Gibod,



Thank you for taking time to read this.  I will be brief and to the point.  



I am looking for information on the Leriche technique for La Peyronie's disease.  I have seen and read a translation of the 2004 paper you co-authored.  Is this technique still being performed?  Are there any new materials regarding this procedure?



As you might have guessed, I have this condition.  I also contribute to a Peyronie's Disease forum ( https://www.peyroniesforum.net ).  There is significant interest in this technique.



Thank you for your help!



Sincerely,



Liam (Baba) O'Riley

[flexor]

The Leriche technique is a form of NA which has been used for some time on Dupytren's Contracture of the hand.

This article may be of interest:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/04/29/nlefanu29.xml

[George999]

Over the past week, I have been experimenting with several topical preparations that include Camphor.  I have found the results to be really quite remarkable and I want to pass on my findings.  I got started on this track due to a determination to  explore the possible effectiveness of various non-steroidal anti-inflammatory agents against Peyronies.   Steroidal agents, both oral and topical are so rife with unwanted side effects I avoid them whenever possible.  I started out with common TigerBalm.  My reasoning was that if Peyronies is indeed fueled by inflammation as Lue and others have asserted, then something like TigerBalm which is commonly used to control inflammation from sports injuries and such should be effective.  Added to this is the fact that Camphor is widely acknowledged to be "transdermal".

So I applied TigerBalm to one of the affected areas of my penis.  At first it felt soothing.  Then it burned like hell fire for over a half an hour.  But amazingly, within a few hours, the hardened three year old plaque on the septum of my penis had  been reduced in size by close to 50%.  So I began applying at 8 hour intervals and gradually expanding use to all of the affected areas of my penis.  At first I noticed a lot of 'rebound' effect.  The plaques would shrink dramatically and then, by the time of the next treatment, they had gained much of their size back.  But the TigerBalm just kept working and gradually the rebound effect diminished.  During this time there was no effect on curvature, but there was a dramatic effect on the two plaques, one old hardened one and a newer, but larger, softer one.  There was also no observable effect on the "cord" connecting the two plaques.

After a few days, I decided to explore further and changed from TigerBalm to BenGay Ultra which includes an additional ingredient and is formulated as a cream rather than an oily salve.  The effect was the same and I appreciated the fact that the BenGay did not leave an oily residue like the TigerBalm.  Over the week, things moved along until one night when I experienced a very painful erection and then later noticed with a following erection that one of the cords was completely gone.  I also noted that one of the curves was also completely gone.  This curve is now rebounding and the cord appears as though it is trying to reform, AND I must quit the Camphor since there are warnings not to use it for more than one week in a stretch since it can cause chronic skin irritation among other possible side effects if you use it over too long a period.  Camphor itself is actually slightly toxic (they make insecticides and mothballs out of it) and can actually cause poisoning if you get too much of it.

So at this point, I am planning to take a one month break and observe how the results hold up and then, hopefully, use it for another weeks stretch and hopefully chip away further at the Peyronies.   Of all the things I have tried, this has to be the most effective yet and it absolutely makes it clear in my mind that these Peyronies plaques, cords, dents and curves CAN be reversed AND that there indeed is something out there that CAN do it.

If I were starting over, I would use the standard BenGay, not the Ultra, since the Ultra contains Salicylate which is of no benefit in terms of the Peyronies.  Actually, on second thought, I wouldn't do that since the standard BenGay contains only Menthol with no Camphor. Most preparations contain some combination of Camphor and Menthol which is what I recommend you try.  I am fairly certain that the effective agent is actually the Camphor which was actually used to treat Peyronies at one time, but then discarded as being ineffectual.  But it was apparently only tried as an oral treatment and was never really tested topically.  Actually, the oral form of Camphor is significantly different from the topical form.  The topical form IS TOXIC if ingested.  Camphor, interestingly is first and foremost an anti-microbial agent.  But it is also classified as an anti-irritant and is reputed to have some anti-inflammatory qualities as well, although the FDA tends to refute that assertion.  The FDA also questions its transdermal effectiveness as well.  I really don't care about that OR how it works, since it obviously works for me.  As the saying goes, each person is an individual and your mileage may vary, but at this point, I felt like the benefit I have obtained has been so dramatic, it is time for me to share it with you.  But DO NOT use this stuff more than four times a day (once every six hours) or for more than one week at a time, because it can have serious side effects if you over use it, so PLEASE be patient and don't injure yourself with it!  Also, it will burn, that is to be expected, but if you start to notice any other side effect from it, especially allergic reaction or general skin irritation, stop using it right away.

- George

[percival]

George
Thanks for this interesting trial. I will try it myself and see what happens.
The active ingredients of Tiger Balm are said to be: camphor, menthol, cajuput oil and clove oil.
The active ingredients of BenGay Ultra are said to be: Methyl Salicylate 30%; Menthol 10%; Camphor 4%
They all seem harmless enough - I am sure that we have all used this type of treatment for other things.
Regards,
Percival

[George999]

Percival, I really like the BenGay base (cream) as opposed to the TigerBalm base (ointment).  I noted in my post that I would prefer the standard BenGay without the Salicylate.  I am going to have to correct that previous post, because I just discovered that the standard BenGay DOES NOT CONTAIN CAMPHOR.  Instead it contains only Menthol as an active ingredient and I don't think that Menthol will work for Peyronies.  But there must be some cream base formula that has the Menthol/Camphor combination like the TigerBalm, perhaps even another TigerBalm product, like TigerBalm Arthritis Rub (TigerBalm products also contain Cajuput Oil, another tree derived agent with Camphor type qualities).  Another interesting product would be Vicks VapoRub Cream.  There are also interesting products out there containing camphor plus MSM and sulfur.  In any case I wish you the best!  It really worked for me.  -George

[George999]

Well, lo and behold!  I go out on the internet to start looking over various Camphor products and what do I find?  Camphor products marketed as scar tissue removing agents!  There are actually already companies out there claiming that Camphor is capable of dissolving scar tissue.  What an interesting connection!  - George

http://www.herbsmd.com/shop/productdetail.asp?pid=8379

[bodoo2u]

George,

Bengay has a non-greasy Vanishing Scent gel that is said to be non-greasy. The active ingredient is  2.5 % Menthol. Camphor is one of the INACTIVE ingredients.  The others are carbomer 940, diazlidinyl urea, isopropyl alcohol, nonoxyno-9, potassium hydroxide, and purified water.

Does this sound like something I should use or are there way too many ingredients.

In the previous post I said camphor was one of the active ingredients.

[bodoo2u]

OK Fellas,

Here is a link I found on scars. It gets better toward the end with a formula for reducing scars. Read up.

http://www.edgarcayce.org/health/database/health_resources/scars-Adhesions.asp

[iceblue]

Here is a link for some information from a search on methyl salicylate + scars titled :

Topical penetration of commercial salicylate esters and salts using human isolated skin and clinical microdialysis studies

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1365-2125.1998.00045.x?prevSearch=allfield%3A%28Methyl+Salicylate+%2B+scar%29

Here are the ingredients from the pfiser site on Ben Gay (http://www.pfizerch.com/product.aspx?id=263)
Ultra strength Ben Gay =
Active Ingredients   Purpose
Camphor 4% Topical analgesic
Menthol 10% Topical analgesic
Methyl Salicylate 30% Topical analgesic

[percival]

George
I could only find Tiger Balm here. There are two versions - red or white. They seem similar so I chose the red version and have tried it today. The initial effect is as you describe - slight burning sensation but not too bad. After about 4 hours I checked to see what might be happening - it had made the veins very prominent so that my unit looked like a road map of Italy!
I have given it a second treatment and will persevere for a week if possible to see what happens.
One piece of advice if any one else is going to try it: don't get it on your nuts.
Regards
Percival

[George999]

bodoo2u, I sounds like the Bengay product you mentioned would be effective.  Camphor and Menthol are the only active ingredients.  The others on the list merely form the base.  As I mentioned, I personally prefer the non-greasy base.  But another issue in terms of inactive ingredients in the base revolves around Alcohol.  Alcohol can irritate the skin and also dry the skin excessively if you are predisposed to that.  So it is important to remember that if you get a reaction.  It may not be the Camphor, but rather the Alcohol that could be causing a problem.

As for the Cayce referrence, I saw that in passing.  I did find it interesting, but I must say, I prefer to look to science for the answers to scientific questions rather than to witchcraft.  People like Cayce have indeed come up with some pretty profound revelations, but I would have to warn you to be very careful, because their stuff is laced with a lot of really off the wall stuff as well that is very destructive.  I would NEVER look to them for guidance, but it is interesting that Cayce did point out some beneficial qualities of Camphor.  There are, in fact, products like one I linked below (ScarGo), that contain Camphor in a Cayce inspired olive oil base.  Someone might want to give something like that a try to see how it works out.  While it would be oily of course, it would also be less harsh than the Bengay approach.  As I also mentioned below, Cajuput, contained in the TigerBalm products is another interesting substance that might actually have some therapeutic effect on scarring such as occurs with Peyronies.  There are also Camphor products with an Aloe Vera base out there for those bent on experimenting a bit.  In any case, there is no doubt in my mind at this point that Camphor holds significant promise in terms of its potential for reversing Peyronies.

[George999]

Iceblue, thanks for the interesting link on the Salicylate.  Personally, I did not notice any increase in the effectiveness with the addition of the Methyl Salicylate, but it is indeed interesting that there is a study out there that indicates it is absorbed into the tissues.  Perhaps, with enough time, it would have a positive effect. -George

[scott]

Back in the "old days" here in the Deep South, all parents kept a product on hand called Campho-Phenique.  I dug out a bottle, and the ingredients are Camphor 10.8% (w/w), Phenol 4.7% (w/w) in an Aromatic Light Mineral Oil.  We used this for EVERYTHING, from cuts and scrapes to insect bites.  It's still around, made by Winthrop Consumer Products, Division of Sterling Drug Inc.  I don't know what the designation  "w/w" means; does anyone have any idea?  Directions say to apply 3 to 4 times daily.  For external use.  Think it might work?

[percival]

Scott
%w/w is percentage by weight of a substance.
Phenol is a well-known old-fashioned antiseptic. It has acidic properties and  I would not think it wise to apply this to one's unit.
Percival

[George999]

From Wikipedia:

In larger quantities, it is poisonous when ingested and can cause seizures, confusion, irritability, and neuromuscular hyperactivity. In 1980, the United States Food and Drug Administration set a limit of 11% allowable camphor in consumer products and totally banned products labeled as camphorated oil, camphor oil, camphor liniment, and camphorated liniment (but "white camphor essential oil" contains no significant amount of camphor). Since alternative treatments exist, medicinal use of camphor is discouraged by the FDA, except for skin-related uses, such as medicated powders, which contain only small amounts of camphor.

And

Exposure of the skin to concentrated phenol solutions causes chemical burns which may be severe;

Scott -  Note that Campho-Phenique pushes right up against this 11% limit on camphor and for some reason the FDA has banned "camphorated oil".  The Campho-Phenique that is around to day may have been reformulated.  I agree with Percival.  I would use caution.  I think the products on the market today are probably a safer option as they have been subjected both to more regulatory scrutiny and to more research.  As for Phenol, even in diluted form it is a skin irritant and there is no way it is going to be effective against Peyronies.  You would just be risking an unnecessary burn to your penis and camphor itself causes enough burning (although in the case of camphor, unlike with phenol, it is just a burning sensation that goes away).  Just my opinion.  - George

[Liam]

Scott,

I used Campho-Phenique  all the time as you described.  I probably still have some.  It was the best for cold sores and bug bites.  It didn't take much.

It is very aromatic.  I don't think anyone having smelled it would ever ingest it (other than maybe a small tranfer from a cold sore, though.  On second thought............ I'll just say Scott and I would never ingest it  .

Here's a link:  http://www.bayercare.com/htm/camphofaq.htm

Liam

[Hawk]

One more warning deserves mention to those using camphor.

It is probably a good idea to wash this stuff off before intercourse!  
I am assuming you only have intercourse with women you like.  

[bodoo2u]

As for the Cayce referrence, I saw that in passing.  I did find it interesting, but I must say, I prefer to look to science for the answers to scientific questions rather than to witchcraft.  People like Cayce have indeed come up with some pretty profound revelations, but I would have to warn you to be very careful, because their stuff is laced with a lot of really off the wall stuff as well that is very destructive.  I would NEVER look to them for guidance, but it is interesting that Cayce did point out some beneficial qualities of Camphor.  There are, in fact, products like one I linked below (ScarGo), that contain Camphor in a Cayce inspired olive oil base.  Someone might want to give something like that a try to see how it works out.  While it would be oily of course, it would also be less harsh than the Bengay approach.

Believe me George, I would never try anything like this. I just thougth it was interesting that Cayce talked about the idea so long ago. I should have mentioned that I was including the link only for reference purposes.  

[bodoo2u]

Guys,

I went to the store and noticed that Tiger Balm contains the maximum-allowable amount of 11% camphor while Ultra Ben-Gay is 4% camphor. I bought the Ben-Gay, however, because George said it worked so well for him. I'm getting ready to put it on. Wish me luck. I'll remain online so you all can hear me scream.  

[Liam]

Its always suggested for use on scar tissue.  Any thoughts?

[George999]

Liam, I have used Vitamin E oil and it seemed to be somewhat helpful, but nothing like the Camphor.  The Camphor has had an effect that has really gotten my attention.  It has really confirmed to me that these Peyronies plaques do not 'stabilize', but, in fact, remain dynamic.  They just seem to stabilize as they mature and tend to remain the same size.  But with the right external forces applied, they definitely react, and that is what I was looking for, something that would make them respond really observably.  One thing I did notice was that the hardened plaque actually responded faster and more effectively to the Camphor than the softer one.

I think it would also be beneficial to distinguish to some degree between 'plaques' which are obvious nodules and 'compromised tissue' which, while it may not comprise a palpable plaque, is also scar tissue.  In other words, even when the plaque itself is 'gone', the tissue that remains may still be unable to stretch normally and may in fact still be scar tissue.  I think that Hawk has actually touched on this before and I think that he is right about it.  The plaques can completely disappear and the bends and deformities can still be just as bad.  So just getting rid of the plaques is not the be all and end all.  HOWEVER, the plaque formation is part of the same physiological process as what  causes the tissue degeneration.  So IF we can identify a way to get rid of the plaques, that same process holds promise in terms of getting rid of the deformities as well, but it may take longer for that to happen.

I just started on this path a little over a week ago and so I am still learning.  I really like the Bengay only because of the non-greasy base.  It also has the salicylate which has shown little effect over the effect of the TigerBalm, but since it is an anti-inflammatory compound and apparently is transdermal also according to the research, perhaps it does have some potential long term benefit as well.  I have also discovered that the TigerBalm I was using prior to the Bengay was actually the TigerBalm Ultra rather than the standard.  So if the TigerBalm I was using was 11% and I am getting the same apparent benefit from 4% Bengay, perhaps the Salicylate is making up some of the difference.  At first, I was concerned about the seven day limit, but since there are seemingly other formulations out there that don't specify a seven day limit, I am at this point continuing the Bengay with a once a day application.  I am just trying to be careful to watch out for any potential side effects.  I really want to see what the long term potential of this is.  So far the only significant problem I have had is my wife's complaint that I am "stinking up the house".

It would also really be interesting to see what the effects of the Camphor would be in combination with other potentially active ingredients like Vitamin E and Aloe Vera, etc. or even one of the scar removal formulas like ScarGo.  There are just so many things to explore with this.

I guess we also need to follow Hawk's lead as well and create some kind of rule book for its usage.  Like for example, after using Camphor, always remember to wash your hands before you pick your nose, rub your eyes or stick your finger in any other less obvious body cavity.  I have to agree with Hawk, this stuff is like hot chile, I can think of all kinds of calamities that could occur if one is not careful with it.  - George

[Liam]

Avoid this at all costs.  If you use this, plaque might be the least of you worries.

[George999]

Indeed!  Actually, I looked into Capsaicin, since it is marketed for similar afflictions right next to the Camphor and Salicylate products.  But, the pharmacology of Capsaicin is really in a separate niche.

Wikipedia:

With chronic exposure to capsaicin, neurons are depleted of neurotransmitters and it leads to reduction in sensation of pain and blockade of neurogenic inflammation.

So Capsaicin really deals with the pain side of inflammation which is really not what we are needing to achieve, since pain is not even an issue for most Peyronie's sufferers.  Rather we need to deal with the physiological side of the problem involving accumulation of collagen and scarcity of normal levels of elastin in the tissue.

But you are right.  It would be just like one of us to give it a try.  I can't even imagine!  

[Liam]

I used it on my back for pain.  I think it also, initially, works on the pain gate theory.  Capsaicin is the chemical that makes hot peppers hot.  It did a satisfactory job on my back and burned good.  However, my wife's hands had a strong reaction to it.  We were scrambling for an antedote.  We were staying in a hotel and I found some peanut butter which worked.  For a couple of days her hands looked like they had been scalded , however.

Thats the reason for my warning.  OUCH!

[George999]

For sure it would fry those plaques (along with everything else).  It would be really ugly.  I hate to even imagine.

[Tim468]

I tried using the TigerBalm last week after discussing it with George. Initially, I forgot that it took a minute for the burn to hit me, so I kept adding tiny little dabs to get it worked in well. Then the burn hit me like a wave and I finally decided it was too much and washed most of it off with soap and water and then I soaked in a tub - all better. I reapplied it - this time using a little amount and only over the left hand base and not nearer to the glans (which was much more sensitive to the burning sensation).

The second application burned also, but was manageable. However, when I washed up at the end of the night, my skin was red and a tiny bit thickened or indurated looking. So, I left it alone and used some Emu oil to soothe things (mine is pure and has no menthol or camphor added to it like some Emu oil).

For the next three days, I stayed with a mildly itchy and inflammed looking skin - tolerable, but not ready for another application.

The kicker came when I got back from my trip and used the VED - the area that had been affected immediately formed a confluent area of petechiae (technically, it was "purpura" I guess). I noticed it through the cylinder (I was using the narrower 1.5 inch cylinder) and stopped.

So, it appears that for me the tigerbalm caused some increased leakiness to the small vessels or capillaries in the skin - probably as a result of the irritation it induced. Caution is quite indicated, and my experience is exactly why when we try something for the first time we should do it in  moderation and then wait a good long time before deciding it is safe.

Tim

[bodoo2u]

Tim,

I can only imagine what your burn felt like. I was in the drug store and noticed the Tiger Balm has 11% camphor vs. 4% for Ultra Ben-Gay. That must have burned like you-know-where. The Ben-Gay had me gasping the first time. I hope you're allright.  

[George999]

Thanks Tim for the note of caution.  Sorry to hear that this worked out badly for you, I was really hoping it would be helpful.  For everyone else:  As I noted in my initial post on Camphor, any sort of skin irritation that endures beyond the burning stage would be an indication NOT to continue its use.  It also pays to try just a little bit first and then gradually work up.  Also take note of Tim's use of Emu Oil.  I think this is a great product with lots of potential, especially for those using the VED.  - George

[George999]

Tim, I don't remember, are you taking Pentox?

[jtl4661]

I have a Question on the VED dose it help to reduce the Curve?
I was going to have a pump implant and had to put it on hold because my back fusion didn't take so I'm going to have that redone on June 5th after i recover from that  i am on having the implant but it a ved helps with erection and reduce the curve. I would like to try it. Also were do you get one? can a uro perscribe it and dose most insurance cover theres? Thanks

[Tim468]

jtl4661

I am not clear if you are trying to find out if you have an alternative to an implant or exactly what you are looking for.

A couple of basic answers. Since Peyronie's Disease is typified by a curve (although pain and ED are also common themes that we deal with), indeed it is true that we use the VED to help the curve. So that one is easy.

If you also have ED (the only reason to get an implant is intractable and otherwise untreatable erectile dysfunction), then the VED can completely treat erectile dysfunction also.

It is possible that for men who have complete erectile dysfunction and a curvature, that they can fix both surgically. However, be sure that the surgeon is good and experienced with the combination of resecting scar and plaque and with sewing in something as a graft, and then implanting the erectile chambers for the pump. Very few urologists are experienced with simultaneously fixing curvature and putting in a pump/implant.

jtl4661 - I have added bold font to the ideas that I want you to consider before getting operated on. Good luck.

Tim

[George999]

One last post on Camphor.  At this point I am also ceasing the use of the Camphor.  I am starting to get skin irritation from it, and although its effect on the plaques has been somewhat spectacular, it has not been effective against the advance of the compromised tissue (non-palpable slightly thickened tunica tissue).  In fact, it may even have caused that aspect to be more aggressive.  So my apologies to all for being so quick to share this.  I have learned much from it, including that the plaques themselves are reversible and that the compromised tissue does not seem to always respond to the same treatments as the plaques.  This is even given me doubts about Vitamin E and other approaches, since many of them seem to be based solely on their perceived efficacy against the plaques.  It also concerns me that most uros diagnose only by the presence or absence of palpable plaques, which tells me that many potential cases of Peyronies are actually failing to be diagnosed properly in the first place.  It also very much confirms many of the assertions that Hawk has been making for some time in regard to Peyronies in the sense of distinguishing that there are two very different types of scar tissue involved in Peyronies, the plaque, and the compromised tissue that has, in effect, lost its elasticity, but is otherwise normal.