ARCHIVE: Verapamil - Injections & Topical Applications including Iontophoresis

[Tim468]

here is the astract of the Italian work on combined verapamil and PLC:

***********************

Oral propionyl-l-carnitine and intraplaque verapamil in the therapy of advanced and resistant Peyronie's disease.

Cavallini G, Biagiotti G, Koverech A, Vitali G.

Medicine Reproductive Unit, Societa Italiana Studi di Medicina della Riproduzione (SISMER), Bologna, Italy. giorgiocavallini@libero.it

OBJECTIVE: To ascertain whether oral propionyl-l-carnitine combined with intraplaque verapamil is a useful therapy for advanced or resistant Peyronie's disease. PATIENTS AND METHODS: The combined drugs were assessed in two studies. In the first, 60 patients with advanced Peyronie's disease, diagnosed using accepted definitions, were randomized in two subgroups treated with verapamil intraplaque infiltration (10 mg weekly for 10 weeks) plus a 3-month administration of propionyl-l-carnitine (2 g/day), or verapamil infiltration plus oral tamoxifen (40 mg/day) for 3 months. In the second study, 15 patients with resistant Peyronie's disease (progression despite previous therapy) received verapamil plus propionyl-l-carnitine. The differences between subgroups or between the variables before and after therapy were compared using analysis of variance or the chi-squared test. RESULTS: In the first study, the reduction in pain was the same in both subgroups. Propionyl-l-carnitine plus verapamil significantly reduced penile curvature, plaque size, cavernosal artery end-diastolic velocity, the need for surgery and disease progression, and increased the International Index of Erectile Function score and resistivity index of the cavernosal arteries. Tamoxifen plus verapamil had none of these effects. No drug combination affected the peak systolic velocity. Patients receiving verapamil had no side-effects but those taking tamoxifen did. In the second study propionyl-l-carnitine and verapamil modified the disease patterns as in the first and no patient had side-effects. CONCLUSION: The combination of propionyl-l-carnitine and verapamil can be considered the therapy of choice for advanced and resistant Peyronie's disease.

[Tim468]

This is the original paper on Verap ionto:

*****************************

Transdermal Electromotive Multi-Drug Administration for Peyronie's Disease: Preliminary Results
FRANCESCO MONTORSI,*† ANDREA SALONIA,† GIORGIO GUAZZONI,† LUIGI BARBIERI,† RENZO COLOMBO,† MAURIZIO BRAUSI,† VINCENZO SCATTONI,† PATRIZIO RIGATTI,† AND GIULIANO PIZZINI*

From the *Institute of Human Anatomy, School of Medicine, University of Milan, Italy; and the †Department of Urology, Scientific Institute H. San Raffaele, Milan, Italy.

ABSTRACT: The purpose of this study was to clarify the actual therapeutic potential of a new transdermal drug delivery system (electromotive drug administration; EMDA) for selected patients with Peyronie's disease. Forty patients with Peyronie's disease were treated by electromotive administration of the 3-drug association orgotein- dexamethasone-lidocaine in a double-blind, placebo-controlled, partial crossover study (study 1). Another 25 patients were treated by EMDA with a combination of  verapamil-dexamethasone in an uncontrolled study (study 2). Treatment sessions lasted 20 minutes each and took place 3 times a week for 3 weeks with a current of 3 mA. Patients were assessed before treatment and at 1- and 3-month follow-up examinations. Assessments were based on sexual history, physical examination, and dynamic color Doppler ultrasonographic results. Adverse effects of EMDA were not reported.

In study 1, the clinical results observed after treatment proved to be significantly better than those of the placebo. Penile pain disappeared in all patients in both studies. Penile lesion (nodule or plaque) either disappeared or significantly improved in 79% and 90% of patients treated by the 3- and 2-drug association, respectively. The improvement of penile deformity also was notable although it did not match the effect observed on penile nodules or plaque (62% and 88%, in studies 1 and 2, respectively). In both studies, more than 80% of patients reported a definite amelioration of penile rigidity, which paralleled the improvement of penile dynamic color Doppler ultrasonographic parameters. Overall, the combination of verapamil/dexamethasone achieved better clinical results than the 3-drug combination.

Electromotive drug administration is a novel technique capable of safely achieving satisfactory results in selected patients with Peyronie's disease not only in terms of improvement of patient's symptoms but also due to the reduced need for penile surgery. Key words: Iontophoresis, electrophoresis, electroporation, therapy. J Androl 2000;21:85–90

I reread tha article carefully. I think that ojne aspect of the care originally given (to these patients) compared to the subsequent studies is in the carefull attention paid to preparing the skin. Either this data was fraudulent (possible), or the subsequent studies (including what ComeBackid and I have done) are being done with a differrent method.

In group 1 (not sure if the did it wwith group 2) they prepared the skin for drug delivery as follows:

The active electrode receptacle, which contains the drug solution (total volume 5 4.8 mL), has an elliptical area (8 cm2) and is attached to the skin at the plaque site (the Figure). The dispersive electrode comprises 2 layers of cellulose and polyester foam with a wire grid sandwiched in between. After degreasing the selected area of skin (a necessary procedure for all electrodes, active or dispersive), a
thin layer of gel for ultrasonography is applied, and the dispersive electrode is soaked with saline solution and then laid on the gel. This arrangement allows even distribution of current through the large surface area (50 cm2) of the electrode, thus reducing the risk of thermal skin damage.

That degree of preparation is more than referred to in later publications (which do not explain the methods this well) nor is it part of what we have done to prepare our skin. Makes you wonder if they set themselves up to fail by trying to make it easier for the home user. I have seen this before - where a study is done well, but implementation in a clinical setting is done badly.

It also makes me wonder if Verapamil injections are done as well in the hands of other docs compared to those who originally did the research.

Or, it could be they are all frauds.

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

Tim,

So basically to sum it up in plain mans talk, they are using a more complex and different method to prepare their skin to place the electro pad on then we are?  So they over simplified the home unit to much and left out crucial skin prepartion methods that we need to get effective delivery of the verapamil and decadron?

I don't know if I believe that study they state a 79% success rate, Phil saw some results using the negative charge and using only decadron! I wonder if he used any kind of special skin preparation method, or just swabbed his skin with the alcohol pads and shaved where necessary?

ComeBackid

[Rico]

Tim and ComeBackid,

Do you think that maybe the thoughts that the current is what is working more than the drugs thereselves....I know this has been asked before and with this arrangement it allows of a even or more effective distribution of the current....I have seen advertising on some of these electro impulse pads such as Dr. Ho's massage which I have used for injury's and they work, I tried to use it on my unit, but the pads are too big, he does claim in his literature that it breaks up scar tissue....the problem with the penis is there is no muscle in it...tissue and nerves only.....it does seem if you prepared the surface for better current distribution you would transmit also deeper in the scar......

Rico

[Tim468]

Rico, There have been controlled studies that did not show effects of current alone - can't recall where I read that.

But then, controls given saline injections as controls showed an about 40% improvement (when compared to Verapamil injections, I think), in one study. They hypothesized there that the needling of the lesion might have essentially been a form of Leriche surgery (loosened up the lesion). So sometimes controls improve for reasons that are not well understood. And in that Spanish study, no one improved following ionto of verapamil and decadron.

So it does again raise the issue of either methodology, or integrity.

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

Tim,

After seeing our own poll results form the verapamil injections I have long pondered was it simply the needle that made the condition slightly get better.  "slight improvment," was the common good response from people.  The majority in our poll seemed to not improve or get worse, while a few slightly improved, and almost no one healed or got really better.  This leads me to believe that the needle injections maybe have slightly broken up some of the hardened tissue and plaque for a slight improvment, with the verapamil doing virtually nothing. These needle injections may have acted as a minor lariche like technique.

Look at the Iontophoresis, no results for me and Tim, and now a spanish study citing that no one got better after decadron and verapamil usage.  I've always had doubts about the PHYSION company, look at their cheesy website? I bought the machine out of hope and the successful studies that were out there.  I think the issue here, and this is just my gut feeling, is an issue of integrity in this case.  For every REALLY GOOD doctor like Tim, how do we know there isn't a cheating lieing son of a #@$@# out there?  I must remind everyone that another company had a product they claimed worked, Dr. Fitch even published a report citing high efficacy rates, speaking of PDLabs...

ComeBackid

[phil]

ComeBackid/Tim,

I did have a small amount of improvement:  went from 45 degrees to 35 degrees, and a bit fuller.  I used dexamethasone and verapamil with the black negative lead. I didn't prepare any way other than cleaning with alcohol. It could be the iontophoresis, or it could be the natural course of my disease.  I can't be sure.   It wouldn't hurt to try the negative lead for another series of treatments. 20 min at 3mA is easy; I'm going to try to receive an additional series of treatments. Also, going back to get a script for Pentox.  I'm 25 months into this thing and still hopeful that maybe my body can reduce the scar.  

Phil

[hopeful]

Are any docs doing this in USA???


Hopeful

here is the astract of the Italian work on combined verapamil and PLC:

***********************

Oral propionyl-l-carnitine and intraplaque verapamil in the therapy of advanced and resistant Peyronie's disease.

Cavallini G, Biagiotti G, Koverech A, Vitali G.

Medicine Reproductive Unit, Societa Italiana Studi di Medicina della Riproduzione (SISMER), Bologna, Italy. giorgiocavallini@libero.it

OBJECTIVE: To ascertain whether oral propionyl-l-carnitine combined with intraplaque verapamil is a useful therapy for advanced or resistant Peyronie's disease. PATIENTS AND METHODS: The combined drugs were assessed in two studies. In the first, 60 patients with advanced Peyronie's disease, diagnosed using accepted definitions, were randomized in two subgroups treated with verapamil intraplaque infiltration (10 mg weekly for 10 weeks) plus a 3-month administration of propionyl-l-carnitine (2 g/day), or verapamil infiltration plus oral tamoxifen (40 mg/day) for 3 months. In the second study, 15 patients with resistant Peyronie's disease (progression despite previous therapy) received verapamil plus propionyl-l-carnitine. The differences between subgroups or between the variables before and after therapy were compared using analysis of variance or the chi-squared test. RESULTS: In the first study, the reduction in pain was the same in both subgroups. Propionyl-l-carnitine plus verapamil significantly reduced penile curvature, plaque size, cavernosal artery end-diastolic velocity, the need for surgery and disease progression, and increased the International Index of Erectile Function score and resistivity index of the cavernosal arteries. Tamoxifen plus verapamil had none of these effects. No drug combination affected the peak systolic velocity. Patients receiving verapamil had no side-effects but those taking tamoxifen did. In the second study propionyl-l-carnitine and verapamil modified the disease patterns as in the first and no patient had side-effects. CONCLUSION: The combination of propionyl-l-carnitine and verapamil can be considered the therapy of choice for advanced and resistant Peyronie's disease.

[hopeful]

Tim,

If you were me - knowing what you know- what system would you go with- Physion or BioMed


Hopeful

ComeBackid, Physion does not sell a different machine; IOMED does.

http://www.iomed.com/prod-phoresor850.html

and the...

http://www.iomed.com/prod-phoresor900.html

The 850 is more programmable, and allows one to manipulate the settings a little bit. I would remind everyone who orders any such equipment, that tinkering runs the risk of causing full-thickness burns to the skin (I have seen that once, and it is more common in African Alericans than Caucasians)(we do iontophoresis in my clinic all the time, since it is used to diagnose cystic fibrosis).

The 850 allows one to seet the current for a 1 - 4.0 amps range (but not higher). I am not really sure of the output of the Pghysion one now.

Tim

"Subject line on this post edited for easy reference"

[Tim468]

If I were you Hopeful, I would go to a doctor. Have you yet? I don't recall.

In answer to your question, I do not know who is doing it in the US. We have a very small number of "failures" (I qualify that as I think verapamil slowed down a new lesion) TWO of us did not get a good respones. Hardly a scientific study.

If I had to do it over again, I would do the more expensive unit that is programmable. I would also win the lottery to be able to afford it.

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

Dr. Carrol's assistant called me today (Israel) and wanted to know how the Iontophoresis came out.  I told him I saw absolutely no results, he told me maybe I should purchase another 25 treatments.  He said they have reported a 76% success rate using the Iontophoresis with men in their office and around the contry, he said most people do see some improvement of like 30 degrees.  He told me that one should not use the negative lead or decadron only, but follow the verapamil and decadron mixing procedure prescribed by PHYSION.  Phil has reported results using the negative lead with decadron only, pharmacists are telling me that one can't use verapamil and decadron together, when I call PHYSION they have no answers, wow I'd say the science behind Iontophoresis is hardly perfected or understood, some are saying the current alone heals your peyronies.  I think Tim is as frusterated as I am with all this lack of clarity.

ComeBackid

[Tim468]

I am going into a fourth round of treatments. Call me stubborn

So far, there are mixed results. The developing lesion at the end of the penis is stable or improved. At full ereection it is straight, though there is a tendency to bend while getting hard. The lesion at the base is still present, but much harder to get drug delivery to. Getting the application pad to stay in close contact with the skin is harder at that point, even using the IOMED pads. I am now trying a IOMED pad that has a gel-interface, since that is more like the original methods presented in the Physion studies.

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

Tim,

I've forgoten what your protocol is.  Are you using only decadron or verapamil?  Positive or negative lead?  Are the gel pads any cheaper than the TransQE Pads?  I may look into them if they are similar to the pads used in the PHYSION study.  

ComeBackid

[Tim468]

>>Are you using only decadron or verapamil?<<

Verapamil. I mixed a decadron (4 mg) with a higher concentration verapamil and it precipitated out (which does not happen with the lower dose of verapamil)

>>Positive or negative lead?<<

Red to penis and black to grounding pad

>>Are the gel pads any cheaper than the TransQE Pads?<<

All the same price. In retrospect, I would not buy the "TransQ-E" because the pad is not as flexible as the "Optima-A" pads (which have a fiber feel to the interface).

>>I may look into them if they are similar to the pads used in the PHYSION study<<

In the Italian study, they used a gel interface for the medication that helped with absorbtion (or so they said). I hoped that the IOMED pads with a gel like interface might be better - and right now it is too soon to tell.

[ComeBacKid]

Tim,

I was going to PM you but I thought I'd post on the forum so everyone can read and add critical thought. I was thinking about why is Iontophoresis failing for us?  Now it did nothing for me, and you said it may have or did stop a new lesion, how can you really measure that?  Perhaps it simply did nothing at all?  My first thought is, we are using the IOMED delivery pads and maybe this hinders the delivery process?  Besides this we were both using the stronger concentration of verapamil, I used it by itself, now I'm doing a decadron sequence using the negative lead.  Phil has reported results using this protocol, and it was recomended at the mayo clinic by his doctor, his philosophy was that decadron (steroid) would work better on longer standing scars.  I think once I do a decadron sequence I will then try another run with mixing the verapamil and decadron, at the lower level of verapamil just like the protocol calls for, and use the IOMED gel pads, I must say the pads are getting expensive as hell though!  To me it seems like someone is blowing smoke with this 76% rate, regaining lost size and reducing curve...

[Tim468]

The original verapamil reports (on any method of application) all suggest that it will work better on new lesions. You and I do not have "new" lesions. So getting better may be out of the cards for us with this technique. OTOH, we both have had some element of worsening (or concern about that) and to that extent, some of what I deal with IS new. So I use it to see if it holds things at bay.

I do believe that two weeks of vacation without the VED or ionto led to some worsening, so I am doing both again religiously. I am VERY unconvinced that the SOMA protocol makes any sense for me, since I mostly have "dents", and those seem to be best treated by a lateral "tugging" (or expansion) that happens best in the bigger cylinder.

Tim

[bob]

My two cents, for what it's worth:

It's been more than a year after my sixth and last verapamil shot.. I also never went back for my post-op "workup" (a repeat of the initial sonogram) in Dr. Mulhall's office. (On one occasion my blood pressure was too high for them to do the test.)

My plaque seems to have diminished significantly, if not disappeared altogether. Now, I haven't noticed any major aesthetic improvement yet. The bend and dent are both still there, although they seem a bit less obvious and I don't seem to have the penetration difficulty I had earlier in the Peyronies Disease progression.

Maybe I'm just getting lucky for a change.

Bob

[ComeBacKid]

Bob,

Did you take the VI survey on our webpage?

I've been considering getting Verapamil Injections but am left undecided on what to do.  I've tried TV, and Iontophoresis, and ALC, L Arginine, seems to help with bloodflow but no resolution in the bend.  I'm still working with the VED as well.  Currently I'm taking pentox and this seems to have a really good bloodflow effect and allow a more full flaccid penis.  Seems like the verapamil injections have worked for some, but our own survey does not show very good results, however it isn't exactly scientific.  It seems like I need something intrusive to get in there and break up my hardened plaque, on the other hand would it create more plaque?  Tough choice considering I don't want to worsen my condition

[Steve]

ComeBackid,

For what it's worth (and having gone through it), here's my 2 cents worth...

Prior to my injections, I had  a 70 degree upturn just behind the Glans.  When semi-erect, I could feel a firm cord like structure running along the top of the penis up under the Glans.  After all the shots (12 in all), the cord and bend was still there, and I now have nodules around the injection sites .  I'd specifically asked my Uro if the shots could cause more scarring, and he assured me that there was a study that showed that they do not.  My experience seems to be contrairy to that study .

If you do decide to go for the injections, be careful with the VED.  After quite a few of the shots, I was very bruised for up to a week.  Toward the end, when I'd begun VED and was still getting shots, I had to stop use of the VED until all the bruises had gone.  This is why I had to re-start the protocol a couple of times...I'd get started for a week, and then I'd have to stop for a week, so I'd re-start.

I wish I could give you more positive reports, but as Sgt Friday said...Just the facts maam.

Steve

[Old Man]

Note to all:

This is back up what Steve says in his post below. I strongly urge any and all who are getting verapamil injections not to use the VED until you have finished the cycle of ALL SHOTS. My reasoning for this is that the site of the injection can and will be exposed to high vacuum pressure during the use of the VED and will cause further trauma. The actual penetration of the needle itself presents enough trauma to the penile erectile tissue and there is no need to aggravate that area.

My VI therapy did nothing for my Peyronies Disease, but using the VED during those injections did cause bruising and trauma around the site of penetration of the needles. (BTW, since I have a high threshold of pain, I refused deadening shots prior to the actual injection of the verapamil.) My uro then took me off the VED therapy until all of my VI shots were completed. I waited several weeks before resuming the VED cycles.

The above is only my observation during my VI therapy and does not necessarily relate to any other individual, but submitted FYI.

Regards to all, Old Man

[bob]

Note to ComeBackid...

Yes I did take the VI survey, but it was quite awhile ago. The diminishment in my plaque is quite recent. I'm under the impression that I cannot take the survey again. Correct?

Bob

[ComeBacKid]

Bob I wouldn't just to keep our stats accurate, where you doing another treatment since the VI's ?  Do you really believe the plaque went away cause of the VI's?  Did you get an ultra sound to measure the decrease in plaque?  I'm glad your plaque is diminished just don't know what caused it, we gotta keep the data accurate.  How many injections did you get?  I'd say about a month after your done with all the injections is enough time to then evaluate how they worked.  If its a year later and your plaque suddenly heals or your taking something else and it gets better, I probably wouldn't attribute that to the VI's, however its not impossible.

[ComeBacKid]

Has anyone seen this study previously?  I don't remember seeing it for some reason and it raised some skepticism.

http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/24638.html

[Rico]

Dear members and guest:

In my short time as a peyronies victim(five months), I have went through several phases of this condition...mostly from a mental stand point... the physical condition has pretty much been stable, but when you lost two inches right off the bat, well that is enough anyway:)...

My first reaction was of course the Old...OH Fu%^&K what has happen to me!!!  And then the I will figure this out and go after the scar tissue ect... I have always been proactive from a stand point of research and tying some supplements, dmso(thacker), and good diet and exercise...the first several months I mostly read and try some supplements and freaked out.... Went to a Urologist ect....

Today I'm doing ginseng, gingko and I actually did a thacker wrap today with VED exercises and ran four miles this morning and did some leg work....and other supplements and might have a Epsom salt bath....

Today I came to realize that the ED drugs are the drugs of choice for peyronies it seems....I was reading on ED drugs today and Pentox, trazdone and viagra where the three choices....I never seen Pentox before reading on it as a ED choice, it was listed as a 50% chance of helping with viagra at 75% and trazdone at 25%.... they said they all could be use together also...now this was not about peyronies at all, just ED...but like Levine says, the reason they say don't use if you have peyronies is just because they never tested it with peyronies and Levine says he has no people in his mix who have had problems....

I join the APDA today, took the survey and posted a question...being a member I suppose to receive information before the street, I feel I would get it on here first, but it was free to join...

I'm not sure if I'm going to start the pentox/viagra/arginine right away, I'm getting some good results with the ginseng and ginkgo right now and my running, NTE are very strong....the hinge effect isn't as bad when erections are strong and maybe just having some Viagra around encase I feel like going on a date or something....there suppose to be one of the best urologist on peyronies two hours away also, and he is Asian:)... I love anything Asian:).... I don't know if it would be worth the drive or not.... my guy suppose to be good also and he will write the script for what I need, so I'm going to keep on the ginseng and ginkgo till I see him and keep reading..... Oh, has anyone else out there try trazdone with Viagra and pentox at the same time, I think ComeBackid has...

Oh, I don't know where I was going with this post:), other than I was a little surprise to see pentox(trental) as a ED drug at first, but now I'm not....the more I read on ED drugs it is the way to go if the hinge is the problem, now with bad curve, well this is another issue, VED and injections....On the APDA site this May they put out another report on injections and say 60% success, which isn't too bad really....If my curve was bad from the reading I have done, injections would be the way I go if curve was over 50 degrees along with VED.... 30 to 50 degree I would go Iono verapamil or pentox/viagra/arginine or both...and under 30 or if you could have sex then I would do VED and supplements or the pentox/viagra/arginine and keep some Viagra or your choice Cialis ect around for some good wood.... and if I was stressed out and wanted to kill two birds with one stone I would take trazdone.... I'm starting to feel more confident with the ED options out there and how they could come to the peyronies victims rescue to a certain degree... I really believe that the ED market will have a positive effect on are condition.... look today...VED, Pentox, Viagra, arginine... all ED driven products and the best thing out there today for us....

Rico

[Hawk]

If the injections you are talking about with 60% success rate are verapamil, they have to prove it to me with objective measurements, random selection, a control group, and unbiased oversite of the study.

My initial tendency after my exposure to information and personalities in the Peyronies Disease community,  is to say,  "horse feathers" !


Please excuse my profane outburst.

[Rico]

Hawk,

I can't say that I have any success with injections since I haven't had any..my urologist said that I can take the topical and it would be less of a hassle vs getting the shots, and wasn't that positive on the topical so I'm just going by what I have read...

Now if I think how many years they have been doing the shots...Hmmmm. why continue...Mayo Clinic is no joke, but if you go to there site they list the three top choice other that a operation are vitamin E, potaba and corticosteroids shots?

My thought is if I was at a curve that I couldn't have sex then before surgery I would try the shots, what would I have to lose at this point....slight curve then I would stick with VED and supplements or oral drugs..... maybe try the oral drugs and ved first and then shots, just don't go for the knife until you have exhausted all other choices.....look at me, I'm the last one to go conventional or the drug route....but I'm looking at tradzone and pentox and viagra also.... maybe because the more you do research you become familiar with them and they don't look as intrusive... if Levine was going to be the one to stick me with the needle and he felt it was the best chance, then I might consider.... it would have to be someone with some experience and one of the options I felt I only had left...

Hawk I don't blame you for being non needle happy, since this is what bought on your peyonies....my gut tells me that the needling of the plaque along with ved could be of help, more than maybe the drug itself....I use dmso before to try to soften the plaque, what ever it is, warm bath, massage, heat, shots.....or circulation...I think there might be something to it...

Rico

[Old Man]

Hawk:

I join you in saying HORSE FEATHERS to the verapamil injections. Had only 6 of them before my Peyroines turned really sour. There was less plaque and/or nodules before starting the injections. They were placed directly in the plaque area and at times outside of that area.

Bottom line, none of them did any good, only worsened my condition. I very abruptly told my uro, not no, but emphatically no to any more of them.

The rest is history now as other methods have done the trick for me.

Regards, Old Man

[hopeful]

Hey ComeBackid

This is hopeful- anything wituh the IONO??-

Hopeful

208453660

[hopeful]

Tim- I have had Peyronies Disease for one year- what is considered a new lesion-? Everything I read was that it would take a year to stabilize?- WHat is your opinion?- And is your protocl working for you?

Hopeful

The original verapamil reports (on any method of application) all suggest that it will work better on new lesions.  

[hopeful]

Rico- from your quote below- I am at 35 degree upward-have stayed away from ED- because of heart arrythmia?- I am at the point now- where I am willing to take the chance for some hard wood again- what is your call

Hopeful

If my curve was bad from the reading I have done, injections would be the way I go if curve was over 50 degrees along with VED.... 30 to 50 degree I would go Iono verapamil or pentox/viagra/arginine or both...and under 30 or if you could have sex then I would do VED and supplements or the pentox/viagra/arginine and keep some Viagra or your choice Cialis ect around for some good wood.... and if I was stressed out and wanted to kill two birds with one stone I would take trazdone.... I'm starting to feel more confident with the ED options out there and how they could come to the peyronies victims rescue to a certain degree... I really believe that the ED market will have a positive effect on are condition.... look today...VED, Pentox, Viagra, arginine... all ED driven products and the best thing out there today for us....

Rico

[Hawk]

Hopeful.

Are you asking a forum member to make the call on whether they think you should risk ED drugs with your heart arythmia???

I think that is better directed to your doctor!

[Tim468]

Ionto has not worked for me, in retrospect. Of course, I do not know where i would be without it, but it has not done much to make me better.

Hopeful, see a doctor about your stuff.

Tim

[Rico]

Hopeful,

You need to check with your doctor on arrhythmia like Hawk said...

The combination with the VED, be it injections, IONO, dmso(thacker), supplements ect...has to be ones own choice base off of his research and needs... it seems also that some respond better to one method than another... but once again if there are other health issues involved I would get several opinions on drugs or supplements(herbs), that might put you in serious danger...

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

I wrote you a good reply that I wanted you to read, when I went to send it i learned your inbox is full, you have to delete some messages my friend, my message was probably not the only one that you did not get from someone!  I don't want to post it on the forum as its kind of personal but something I thought you should read and may boost your morale.  Get that inbox cleaned out and send me a PM when you do!

ComeBackid

[Mr BLBC]

Hey ComeBackid

This is hopeful- anything wituh the IONO??-

Hopeful

208453660

Hopeful,

Iono did not work for me either, but then again the protocol some people follow is low and slow...

I turned that machine up as high as it would go, it administered the medicine in 4 mins @ 4.0 amps...

Mr BLBC

[Steve]

4 Amps !  I used to have a Hot Dog cooker that electrocuted hotdogs to cook them (2 prongs with each side directly connected to the 120v supply).  I have this picture of this happening at 4 amps.  Are you sure it wasn't 4 ma?

Steve

[hopeful]

Thanks Buddy- wil clean today!- Let me know if it comes through- you can always give me a call!

I wrote you a good reply that I wanted you to read, when I went to send it i learned your inbox is full,  

[hopeful]

Rico- The doctors don't know jack shi_- about Herbs,m etc..- I am screwed- have to build up my testostosone


Hopeful

I would get several opinions on drugs or supplements(herbs), that might put you in serious danger...

Rico

[Tim468]

Dear Hopeful,

I am not sure what doctors do or do not know about herbs. In general, it is not what they are trained to do, so they don't do it well.

However, docs do some things fairly well (some of them, some of the time). In order for that to happen, one has to GO to a doc, though. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but have you yet gone to a urologist for help??

If you are talking about iontophoresis, you should start with a diagnosis, and a prescription.

Tim

[Hawk]

Hopeful,

Exactly what are your testosterone numbers?

I am screwed- have to build up my testostosone
Hopeful

[Liam]

LOL Steve,  I remember those.  Its a little scary in this discussion, though.

As James bond would say, " Shocking."

[csup]

I have an appointment set w/ a new Uro that I understand likes to use the topical verapamil treatment. Without going thru the almost 400 posts on this topic, what is the general consensus from the veteran members here on the ability of this drug to produce favorable results. Is this treatment generally covered by insurance?

[Hawk]

We have an active survey on our webiste (just click on the "PDS WEBSITE" button on the forum button bar) to see our Website.

To date, 19 individuals have taken the survey on topical Verapamil.  Out of 19:

16 reported no improvement in curve or reported their deformity worsened while using TV
2 reported slight improvement
1  reported great improved

We have only ever had one person post on our forum that they improved while on TV.

[ComeBacKid]

Hawk,

It may be beneficial to post a link to our topical verapamil survey in the NEWS section on the main PDS board when you first log in, it seems that many of our members are missing the links to our webpage or not finding it, I often wonder about how many people even know we actually have a webpage, this is quite concerning. I also wonder if there is anyway we can have our polls constantly open to new people to take, while showing the current results to anyone who wants to view them, because since our intralesional verpapamil injection survey is closed how can new members take the survey, the more people that take our polls the more credible they become.

ComeBackid

[csup]

I actually found your website from the internet before knowing about the forum. I did look around on it and somehow saw the survey results on the verapamil injections, but not the ongoing survey on the topical application. There is a lot of info on your site, and I am still sifting thru all of it. Not enough hours in the day to read and catagorize all the different (and differing) info about this disease, both here and elsewhere.
crs

[Hawk]

ComeBackid,

I know of your interest and work in this area and appreciate your ongonig concern and ideas.  The problem is that to feature everything is to feature nothing.  I have spent considerable time looking at this issue from different angles.  I have already placed a red scrolling banner across the very top of the home page.  The link to our survey section is the most prominant link on our website.  If men that used TV don't have enough interest to navigate there by now, more posts and bigger links are not the problem.

I will re-open surveys from time to time, but leaving surveys open only contributes to inaccuracy since people start taking surveys multiple times making them less credible.  I can track that more easily over a short duration.

[hopeful]

Hawk- I am in the low 200's

Hopeful,

Exactly what are your testosterone numbers?

[hopeful]

Tim-

I have been to (2) Medical doctors- (1) Uro who is a DO URO- whom I respect- however, he had no real solution for me other than taking warm baths 20 minutes a day and takingoral enzymes- not a believer in drugs or a pump- baths are difficult as they make me weak and cause my heart arrhythmia to act up-also went to a so-called ED Peyronies Disease Specialist Dr. Carroll in Orlando- who never examined me- let his assistant do it- as well as take the tests- in my book - he is in it of r the money- one of these docs that prey on ED and Peyronies Disease patients- I was referred to him by PHYSION - which is another company that I have doubts about?-  There are 2 URO's that has been reccommended in South Florida where I live- one at U of Miami and another at Cleveland Clinic- I am trying to get more info before I blow more money!!!! - ABout ready to give up!  







If you are talking about iontophoresis, you should start with a diagnosis, and a prescription.

Tim
[/quote]

[Tim468]

Yeah, Hopeful, it really sounds like you would do well to go to a real urologist who is up to date and is willing to do all before operating (or can explain if surgery is best, why it is best). best of luck with that.

Tim

[csup]

After seeing my new Uro today, I am going to start on a TV regimen. In reviewing the survey results on this treatment, I noticed that the beneficial results were very low. Since my Peyronies Disease is only 6 weeks old, and i currently don't have any bending or major irregularities, I wonder if the TV applications will have any better effect than if I had started this treatment after having the disease for say 6 months or longer. Anyone have any ideas on this pro or con? crs