ARCHIVE: Verapamil - Injections & Topical Applications including Iontophoresis

[Tim468]

I have tried reversing polarity (that is, doing first one, then the other charge). Each takes 20 minutes so it is a large commitment of time. I do it in bed, late at night, and have fallen asleep doing it - thank goodness the machine turns off automatically!

The verapamil is charged, and I think that adding decadron will only hamper administration. Although I am interested in what a steroid might do to reduce inflammation, a fairly long history of failed therapies with steroids (creams, oral, IV, IM and injected into plaque) make me less interested in adding that.

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

Update:

So far I'm about halfway through my IONO treatments, I've been running the positive charge for twenty minutes, then reversing and running the negative charge immediately after.  I've been using the IOMED pads and have been using 2.5 CC's of verapamil and .5 CC's of decadron, since the IOMED patches can only hold about 3.0 CC's of liquid total.

I've also been taking 800 IU's of vitamin E, about 2 grams of Aceytl L Cartinine with lipoic acid, Topical verapamil 2 times per day, and MSM about 3,000 grams or 3 pills per day.

The only thing I've noticed so far after about 45 days or so is more firmer erections and increased bloodflow in the flaccid state making it hang bigger, I believe this is related directly to the topical verapamil.  Also initial pain I had is now gone, studies show the Carnitine could be the factor reducing the pain.

ComeBackid

[phil]

ComeBackid/Tim,

Sorry I've been w/o computer for awhile.  I am still doing ionto and should finish treatment next week.  It seems to have helped a bit.  Time will tell.   I've also been soaking in a warm bath every few nights. I use a pool thermometer, keeping water aroung 104. Good luck with your treatments.

Phil

[Fighter]

Hi Everyone... I just wanted to introduce myself and get into some discussions. I first discover I had Peyronies Disease about 10 months ago. The first 2 months I ignored it and did not really know about Peyronies Disease. After 2 months I decided to go to the urologist. He told my about Peyronies Disease but was not sure if I had it at this time and he said to give it time. I still was not convinced that I had Peyronies Disease until about 8 months went by and things were not getting any better. I went back to the uro and he recommended Topical  Verapamil. I have been on TV for about 2 months now and it seems to be helping. The pain is still there but not as much and there has been no change in curvature (about 25 Deg to the left). I have 2 areas that are infected one about the size of a pea (center) and another about the size of a (3/8 inch long flat) near the bottom of the Gland. They also seem to be getting smaller and not as hard. I was thinking about trying the L-Caritine and L-Arinine along with the TV just to give myself a better fighting (Hence Fighter) chance. Any suggestions on this thought?  

[zigwyth]

Hello Fighter. And Welcome to probably the best forum I personally have found. There seems to be alot of intelligent, caring men here with knowledge about the different treatments and options for Peyronies Disease. I also have been prescribed Transdermal Verapamil as well. Although you will hear others say that they had no success with it, I have read maybe a couple guys that seem to have had a little success with it. Just read past posts and you will find a wealth of info on options.I think roadblock just posted his regimen under his Peyronies Disease update. Pentox is one med I keep hearing about. Perhaps Hawk or someone that's been here longer can guide you. Stay positive and don't give up hope. Again, welcome--Zig the Twig  

[tmentor]

Hello Everyone!
I wanted to inform all members and guests of this site about an upcoming educational presentation that will take place in Chicago on Wednesday, July 26th, 2006 at 6:00 p.m.  "Straight Talk about Peyronie's Disease and ED" will be presented by Dr. Laurence Levine @ Rush University Medical Center.  All interested parties should RSVP to Trent @ 1-800-525-8773 ext 5725.  Thank you and I hope you can attend!

[Steve]

Thanks tmenor!

I sure hope someone thinks to record this event and make it available to all those of us who can't travel to the Windy City.  It sounds like an informative event...anyone interested???

[SteveW]

Welcome Fighter !
I think you will find a group of caring and giving men here.  We're all in this together and I have received a great deal of support and information from my fellow members.  Don't hesitate to ask, question or post.  Good luck, we all need to hear about your progress.

[zigwyth]

Guys wasn't sure where to post this. But is this something different than the iontophoresis(spelling?) If so, is there any posts on this in this forum? Otherwise, give me a quick briefing of what this is and any success?
Thanks
Zig the Twig

[Hawk]

Zig,

If you click on our forum "Search" and type "interferon" you will get several hits.

[Liam]

Does insurance cover Verapamil and IONO treatment?  If not, how much are we talking?

Liam

[ComeBacKid]

Liam,

My insurance only covers $94 for every $270 tube of topical verapamil, and the last one they denied saying I didn't have the right NDC number and quantity when i did, they are just delaying paying out(its cheap MEDCO).  Most insurance companies do pay the full price of topical verapamil from PDLabs.

I haven't tried to get the IONO covered yet but the machine with drugs is about $1200.  I'm going to try and get this covered next, I'll let you know how I make out.

ComeBackid

[Liam]

Thanks, It is always good to have the numbers.

[SteveW]

ComeBackid,
Please let us know how IONO treatment is addressed and covered by your insurance Co.  My plan did cover TV for the usual formulary copay of $30...but IONO may be another question.  Good luck.

[Fighter]

Need some opinions???
I am at the end of my 3 months with TV from PDLabs and I do see some improvements like pain is tolerable now no change in  curve and the plaque seems to be improving but that is day to day meaning some days feels better than others. This all could be from Peyronies Disease running it's course?? Not sure?? but on one hand I feel like if I don't do at least 6 months treatment that I did not give PDLabs a fair shake because they do specify at least 6 months. But on the other hand after reading the form and indulging all the facts and informations I feel PDLabs are scamming us and I personally sent them an e-mail of ComeBackid's report and asked them to get back to me and they never did. So I kind of think that they scamming us? Not sure? Any opinions? I will appreciate and value your opinions but ultimately I will make the decision if I am going to do another 3 month treatment.

[Hawk]

Fighter,

This probably won't be what you want, but here it goes.

I think those are the tough decisions that only the patient can make.  You have talked to others and read posts of those that have been through the PDLab's routine.  You read ComeBackid's report.  You have heard PDLab's claims.  You know your financial situation.  You also understand that pain always goes away.  You know what other treatments you are trying. You may not know that plaque almost always goes through changes as it matures (it often shrinks).  You have seen the changes in your own symptoms.  We can be pretty certain that TV does no harm.

To complicate the issue, more than does it ever work, the question is "does it work better than another treatment and where will I put my money.  For instance, Ionto, traction, VED etc.

There are hundreds of members here with opinions on TV generally and PDLabs specifically.  Some have used it and some haven't.  My point is that when you stop and think, you probably already know every argument that either side can  use.  I am sure some will share their opinion and tell you what you already know, but in the end, the tough decision remains yours.  Most of us struggle with these same type of decisions even after we have all the data.

Good luck my friend!

[mark501]

 My symptoms became worse  while on topical verapamil. MUCH WORSE. It was a horrible mistake on my part to try TV. The first urologist I went to brought up the subject of TV and emphasized to me that it absolutely did not work. I did not listen to him and went to urologist number 2. He said  his patients have had good success with it. After he saw my condition worsen even with a double dose he said he had no other treatments to offer me. I asked about verapami injections. He said they do not work. If he thinks injections don't work how could topical possibly work? Prior to my use of TV I had used topical magnesium sulfate with some success. I did not use magnesium sulfate cream while on TV. After starting up using MS again a slow improvement began. It is NOT a cure however it has absolutely helped me with the "hinge effect"  and dents on the left and right side. The dents on the right side are gone. This progress has been very slow taking many many months. MS is very inexpensive and I think worth a try. It is a natural calcium channel blocker. It isn't promoted; there's no big bucks to be made by selling it. I am talking about the topical form of epsom salt. I have only been able to find one source.  My Peyronies Disease is still quite active. I had a mild case of Peyronies Disease prior to bilateral hernia surgery. After the surgery a 5 degree curvature to the left went to 30 degrees. It is now zero degrees. While that left side curvature resolved itself a new curvature towards belly started. It's about 30 degrees. The last month on TV my rigidity was about 75% of normal & now its about 95%. All of our situations are different and I just hope some of what I have said is helpful to somebody.  

[ComeBacKid]

Mark501,

The real question is, is your second urologist a liar and scam artist, or just crazy, this crap doesn't work!

ComeBackid

[Barry]

Liam,

Thanks, It is always good to have the numbers.

I thought that you might be interested in another insurance perspective and an opinion from another member.
I have had Peyronies Disease for 12 years,during the 5th year a urologist gave me an RX for topical verapamil from PDL. I am insured with Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Texas...... they were willing to pay the whole bill for TV but I had to lay out the money and they would re-inburse me after filing the proper paperwork.

Money was not an issue, I did not however follow through with filling the RX simply because there was very little positive information on the forums and hardly any efficacious posts. PDL had not written any reviews inspiring me to use their product.Basically it was a "take our word for it" deal doing business with them. I have not yet found any remotely convincing evidence that TV was or is worth my time. 8 years later I still harbor the same feelings.

If TV had the efficacy that it claims then the AMA,AUA or some credible organization would be telling us to use this product.

Just an opinion from an old timer who has seen and heard all the BS.

Regards,
Barry

[zigwyth]

I agree with everything that Hawk said. I have been on TV now since Feb. 700+ dollars out of pocket. Pain went away almost immediately. Penis hangs a little bigger in the flacid state, however, plaque has recently started to grow bigger, nothing else promising. If I had to do it all over, I would have saved my money, started an alternative regimen with pentox, arginine,etc., a VED or traction device and the rest on Vegas.Just my 2 cents.
Zig the Twig

[Liam]

Thanks guys!  I think the only TV I will use is the one I sit in front of.  

[hopeful]

MArk- I read your post- and I am interested in finding out more about topical magnesium sulfate -(eposom salts) Please post the site- where you can find it- and how often do you apply- do you use a VED?- if so how ofthen- it sopunds like you have had good success with this so far- as far as curvature, etc..

Thanks,

Hopeful
 

[Fighter]

ANYONE!!!

What dose Dr. Levine say about TV? He seems to be big on injections... has he done any work with TV???

[wantitstr8]

Dr. Levine says TV is worthless and a waste of time and money.  I asked about it several visits ago and he told me to save my money...he's not real big on snake oil treatments.  He performs the VI but admits that it may or may not help.  The data he provided to me (if I recall correctly) indicated about 45% improve, 35% show little effect, and the balance continue to worsen.  I opted for the shots.  Two visits ago he put me on Pentox and arginine...that does seem to be helping...I am also using traction and have had about a 20 degree improvement in curvature (45 degrees - 25 degrees) over the last 5 weeks...I'm very encouraged.

[Liam]

WAntitstr8,

That is the best news I've heard in a while.  I am encouraged.

Liam

[ComeBacKid]

Been using the TV from PDLabs for over two months now, like week 9 or 10, the whole time I"ve been using a little extra each dosage to!  The only thing it will do is increase bloodflow and give u better erections, plaque is still there and unchanged really, the crap wil not dissolve the plaque, it is snake oil.  If you guys get a chance check out my PDLabs report, J also helped me with it.  When the TV survey comes out if you used TV from PDLabs or generic TV make sure you take the poll so we can get the facts out on PDLabs and TV as a treatment!

ComeBackid

[ComeBacKid]

Is anyone besides Tim and I currently using this treatment device for peyronies?

Any results to report if anyone is using this machine?

ComeBackid

[ComeBacKid]

Perhaps Want It, could tell us what Dr. Levine thinks, but I believe he thinks that it doesn't work and doesn't prescribe it, considering his colleague Dr. Mulhall wrote a paper on how topical verapamil doesn't work.  Check out my report on topical verapamil and PDLabs.  Fighter the TV did nothing for you... right?

[wantitstr8]

At my first visit with Dr.Levine, we reviewed the options.  He said I could take Vitamin E, which probably wouldn't do any good.  He also said there are a myriad of topical solutions and applications that are all worthless, any anecdotal benefit is likely due to a spontaneous resolution of the problem. He explained the potential benefits of Verapamil injections (which I opted for), and offerred the traction procedure (as a participant in the study) as an alternative.  I declined the traction at the outset...have since begun a traction program on my own.  Basically, Levine thinks topical solutions have little if any benefit.

[Rico]

Did he have a opinion on VED?

Rico

[wantitstr8]

Yes, he prescribes the Somacorrect VED in conjunction with the Verapamil Injections.  It seems he is leaning toward a method of reducing the deposition of collagen and then a physical modification of the scar tissue itself.  After little results from the VI, he then prescribed Pentox and Arginine and suggested I continue with the traction program.  So far (about 6 weeks into the process) I have seen about 20 degree reduction in curvature.

[ComeBacKid]

Want It,

Is the idea that pentox itself will break downt he plaque, or that it will increase bloodflow which will help heal the plaque, or doesn't he know?

Also how much does pentox cost monthly, does insurance cover it?  

Dr. Carroll from Orlando, Florida told me Dr. Levine prescribes the IONOtophoresis machine in conjunction with a Soma Correct VED, he said you must first soften the plaque, before you can "remold" it.

ComeBackid

[ComeBacKid]

Rico,

The Old man does call for the VED, using it slowly over time to stretch the scar tissue.  However, he has stated you can achieve positive results with the VED only.  The thing that caught my attention from Dr. Carroll, was that he told me you must first soften the tissue through IONOtophoresis, then remold it using the VED.  What exactly does remold mean, I don't even think he knows!  He sent me the VEd along with the IONO with no instructions on how to use the VED, I've taken up the 26 week protocol from Old Man.  Dr. Carrol said that if you just use the VED you will make your curve worse, he said you have to soften the plaque before you can straighten in.  He told me hes had several patients come into his office, with a worse curve than before they started VED treatment, because they only used the VED.  His statement conflicts directly with Old Man's, who says you just do the 26 week protocol.  I'm doing the IONO treatments because I have it, and it can't hurt to do that with the protocol.  There are some on here who have claimed to regained lost size, I wouldn't call this remolding, I'd call it stretching the plaque out.  I don't think anyone knows the exact science of this at all.  Dr. Levine is currently doing a study with traction devices, and I think it will be very interesting to see the results of this.

*On another note, I noticed that the traction device companies claim you can straighten your penis if you have peyronies and restore lost size, but they claim you can gain size if you don't have peyronies.  Augusta Medical Systems claims you can use their VED for impotence, and to straighten the plaque out if you have peyronies and restore lost size, however, they don't claim someone without peyronies can use a VED for enlargment.  I am very skeptical of contraptions that claim they can enlarge the penis in one without peyronies, cause there is no plaque to stretch.  

[Steve]

Just a thought... if the VED/Traction devices 'stretch' the plaque, then wouldn't the curve 'reverse' in the flaccid state?  To my thinking, if you take an upward bend (for example) and stretch the plaque so that when erect the penis is straight, then wouldn't you have a downward bend when flaccid due to the 'longer' plaque?

Just wondering...

Steve

[Rico]

The bend happens during erection, and then bends oppositite of plaque. So more supple plaque is,the less of bend.

Rico

[BLBC]

Regarding Iontophoresis: In a man who is not circumcised should the pad be put on the foreskin or directly on the penis? To me it makes sense to put it on the penis while my husband says the foreskin should be fine.

My thought is that the medicines will more likely reach the affected area rather than be caught up in the foreskin. Granted it would be difficult to retract the foreskin in the area, but I can see that it is doable.

[ComeBacKid]

BLBC,

I've been using the IONO and am uncircumcised myself.  Whether your cut or uncut, really has no bearing on doing the treatments.  You wouldn't want the pad on your foreskin, as their is not plaque there, the plaque developes in the shaft for most people.  I just pull the foreskin forward and put the pad around it, if your using the cups from PHYSION, they are terrible on any penis, look at IOMED pads, thats what I use and the physician Tim whos doing IONO uses as well.  They are flexible bandaid like pads that wrap around the penis and are much easier for administration.  You will definately want to shave the pubes, and surrounding ares of hair, as the pades have a sticky bottom like a normal bandaid and u will be pulling out chunks of hair if u don't shave around the pubic, and penis area.  So once again your husband shoudl not put the pad on his foreskin, but pull it forward over the head then put the pad over wherever the pad is.  The medicine is driven in where the pad is, you can't drive it in to one part of the penis and let it migrate to another part, this will not happen.  Hope this helps if you have anymore questions feel free to PM me.  Also with the IONotophoresis, I"m using 20mg/ per mL of verapamil and not using the decadron, you want to use the positive charge or the red alligator clip on the penis, and the black on the thigh.  Any questions feel free to PM me.

ComeBackid

[BLBC]

Disclaimer: If this makes no sense it's because I don't own, nor have I ever owned a penis.

I am really not understanding what your saying..... First you say do not put the pad on the foreskin then you say pull the foreskin forward.... Are you saying to retract the foreskin (pulling it close to the body) and put the pad on the penis? Or are you saying pull the foreskin tightly over the head of the penis and put the pad on the foreskin?

I have visions of the "Who's on first routine..."

My husbands plaque is about 1 inch below the base of the head on both sides of the upper portion when flaccid Considering the foreskin is attached to the head of his penis in this area should he pull the foreskin towards his body and  place the pad over the foreskin where it is attached and the rest of the pad directly on his penis?

Which ever the case I think I'll introduce him to Veet as the shaving was a disaster!

[ComeBacKid]

BLBC,

See my PM I sent you.  You want to pull the foreskin away from the body, so the skin around the shaft of the penis becomes flat and straight, and you can wrap the band aid like pad wherever you want it.  Its very simple really, even if the plaque is an inch below the head just put the pad around that area.  Once again, the PHYSION cups are almost impossible to use on any penis cause you must maintain an erection for about twenty minutes with an electrical current running through your body, and you can't move the cup at all you must stay still, besides this the cup does not seal well tot he penis and the liquid leaks out the sides, its a disaster, I tried for days and ruled it out as impossible.  The IOMED pads work GREAT! They are not cheap but definately worth it.

IOMED Site

You want the TransQ E pads, circular style, and medium size.

ComeBackid

[Fighter]

Perhaps Want It, could tell us what Dr. Levine thinks, but I believe he thinks that it doesn't work and doesn't prescribe it, considering his colleague Dr. Mulhall wrote a paper on how topical verapamil doesn't work.  Check out my report on topical verapamil and PDLabs.  Fighter the TV did nothing for you... right?

Sorry been on vacation... I really don't think it did anything? I have been off it for two weeks now and really have not seen any difference.

[phil]

All,

I've been off-line for awhile.  I tried 6 weeks of iontophoresis and it seemed to help reduce curvature slightly and allow some fullness to return.  I may go back for some more.  I have been thinking about an earlier post by Hawk wherein he discussed scars and methods to reduce scars.  Some antibiotics, and some anti-inflammatory drugs like aspirin or ibuprofen were mentioned.   Is anyone taking the anti-inflammatory drugs on a regular basis at a significant dosage? and if so, have you noticed an improvement?  What about topical aspirin, like aspercreme?  Can it penetrate, and if so how far?  Some of us have plaques just under the skin.  Will it help? Are there any risks?

[ComeBacKid]

Phil,

How many times per week did you go in for a treatment, once a week for six weeks?

Did they use just verapamil or dexamethasome as well?

Did they put the delivery patch or cup on the same exact spot every time or move it around slightly?

ComeBackid

[phil]

ComeBackid,

I had treatments twice a week for 6 weeks.  Used both dexamethasone and verapimil.  Interestingly, the negative lead was attached to drive mostly the steriod into the tissue.  Tried to keep over same location were the plaque could be felt.   Used the iomed pad.  

Phil

[ComeBacKid]

Phil,

Thats odd, I thought in the PHYSION study they used the red alligator clip or positive clip on the penis to drive the medicine in? I was worried I might be using the wrong charge, however Tim said he is using the positive charge as well, I'm only using verapamil, no dexamethasome right now, did your doctor ever use the positive lead?

ComeBackid

[soxfan]

Hi All,

I came across this and while the evidence is anectodal, it seems that cocoa butter is very cheap and harmless. As such, I am going to add it to the mix and use with dmso to drive it into the scar tissue.

Cheers.

1)Scars: Several of us have used cooa butter to reduce the scar tissue, not the scar itself, just what is underneath.

Here is a story from Nancy:

When my daughter was 2 years old she had a hemangioma (the kind under the skin and not the strawberry mark kind on the surface.) It was in the inner corner of her eye and the incision was from the top of her eyebrow curved around the nose and down to the bottom of the eye.

I had a very good plastic surgeon do the work, but was advised that he would occasionally need to do more surgery as she grew because it would tighten and draw up. I bought cocoa butter and melted it and kept rubbing it into the scar for several more years and she never required anymore surgery, nor does anything show up except a very faint white line.

She is going to be 37 this month and I am so glad that she did not require these extra operations. Can't believe that when I had my surgery I forgot all about the cocoa butter and probably could have saved myself from the keloided scar. I did use Vit. E. but it did not help.

Here is Rae's story:

it has been pretty remarkable. The scar line where it extended into the axilla was a tight, hard line. Now it has softened so much that it doesn't pull taut when I raise my arm and the entire area feels soft and pliant. (She used the cocoa butter more than 4 years after the scar began forming).

Here is Ann's story:

I completely reduced underlying scar tissue in three months by applying cocoa butter on the scar site. It was amazing and painless. I had used both aloe and Vitamin E for a long time before that and on other scars with NO discernible effect. The scar still shows but it has NO scar tissue underneath.

http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/tipandtec.html

[Rico]

Soxfan,

How long have you been using dmso and what strength and have you anything else with it, castor oil, arnica oil, ect....or avc  and have you use aloe with the dmso...Thank you...also, did dmso blister your skin?

Rico

[soxfan]

Rico,


I use dmso, the 99.95 human grade version as part of the Thacker formula. I have never had any problems with burning or blistering. I also use it mixed with aloe vera and evening primrose oil, from gelcaps, as a way to massage my penis and warm up before my nightly VED treatment.

Cheers.

[ComeBacKid]

Are you doing the Old Man's protocol using a Soma Correct?  HOw long did it take you before you saw any results if you saw any, and what where they?  So are you using the thackers forumla of DMSO, castor oil, and apple cider vinegar?  

ComeBackid

[ComeBacKid]

Today I had a phone conversation with Dr. Carrol from Orlando , Florida in regards to getting my Soma Correct covered by insurance.  I specifically asked him about the Soma, and he said using it without first softening the plaque can and will make the curve worse, this seems to go against what some on this forum have said.  He said you need to do 25 IONO treatments before you see a softening of the plaque.  He also said Dr. Levine is using the traction device in a study without first softening the plaque and he is puzzled by this.  Hopeful I already know what your going to say about Dr. Carrol when you read this  

ComeBackid

[Steve]

IMHO   Until there is clinical proof one way or the other, everyone (including doctors) is entitled to his opinion.  Only goog clinical trials will prove what works and what doesn't (but, as I said, that's just my opinion.

Steve