ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[csup]

I have tried to do as much research as possible before taking any of the current meds, supplements, etc, I am on. I have just started taking pentox 2 days ago w/ no ill effect so far, and have been taking 1 dose of 120mg ginkgo daily for over a month. I have not seen any info on these two drugs having a negative interaction w/ each other. My Dr. also knows all the various pills I am taking, and did not say anything. Maybe he missed the ginkgo on my list. crs

[Rico]

Hawk:

Blood is a tissue, highly specialized and composed of many different kinds of componets....

I agree that using the VED along with pentox or extreme blood thinners that one has to be careful of not too much vacuum....

White cells are not limited to blood also....

Hawk I feel that the formula, being ginkgo or pentox and Viagra or cialis and the arginine is like you said to shut down the inflammation and prevent scarring....the studies seem to show that once this is accomplish that the additional oxygen rich blood which is full of nutrients helps heal and in some cases rejuvenate new tissue to the injure area....

From the first splitting of the first single cell animals millions of years ago this is what God gave us to survive, this blood clotting is are survival...peyronies is a example of it gone arye.....the pav formula might just reset your body to address this issue in a more normal way, and this once again is by shutting down the inflammation process and start the healing....

In my mind especially in the first 12 to 18 months of the condition if one can do this the better chance one would have of recovery or to lessen his condition....but I also believe in retracing a injury also, this is where the body when given the right nutrients will go back and heal a old scar....

The new tissue where the scar was, well this is the issue with the lost of elastics, and this is where the VED comes in.....

I wasn't sure if I got the cart before the horse, using the VED and not sure if my plaque was stable....then I went on the pentox and had some leakage so had to stop the VED, I feel that doing the pentox/cilias/arginine for several months to see what develops and then I can always restart the VED program with my old supplements, ginkgo and opc's ect....

Rico

[George999]

csup,

You are correct, it IS OK to combine ginkgo and pentox under physician supervision AND the two may very well act synergystically in terms of TGF-beta-1, etc.  So I will modify my previous post accordingly.  And the problem is indeed related to 'blood thinning', however it seems that ginkgo and pentox thin the blood in different ways, thus, under physician supervision, should not present a problem.  Thank you for setting me straight on this, I think we are all learning a great deal from each other, especially in terms of these little nuances.

And I really hope there are some urologists reading this forum because I think they could learn a great deal from it as well in terms of understanding what their own patients are using to deal with Peyronies, what seems to be helpful and what definitely isn't, and also in terms of being able to spot applicable current research.

Buy the way, how does this combination seem to be working for you so far?  Are you making any detectable progress?  Please share!

-George

PS - A study involving people taking both Coumadin (the mother of all 'blood thinners' ) and Ginkgo found 'minimal' 'interaction'.  So the concern about Ginkgo and Pentox together is probably exaggerated.  Nevertheless, as Hawk has pointed out, it is prudent to be aware of these factors and use appropriate caution.

[csup]

George999,
I was getting worried when I read your post that I had missed some vital info on this combo during my research. The only thing I did note on the pentox was a concern when taking a standard blood thinner like coumadin or wafarin. As you stated, it is always good to have info coming from all sources ,as it can be easy to overlook things. I am on other meds for cholesterol and bph, and it can be hard keeping it all straight.
So far, I have not noticed any effects from the pav cocktail or the tv I started last week. Sometimes when I do an exam it feels smaller and softer, but then I will check it later, and it feels just like day 1. So I will continue to gulp pills and slather goop, and keep a journal of my progress(). One thing I am happy about is that my stomach and system seem to be handling all the meds very well. Maybe it's the zantac. crs

[George999]

csup,

The up and down back and forth thing with Peyronies is just typical.  I have experienced nearly complete remission only to have it suddenly return again.  But I can tell you, that after dealing with it for three years now, mine is in better shape than it was six months ago and definitely in better shape than it was a year ago, and thats what is important.  So the ups and downs are to be expected, what is important is the long term results.  I think that both Pentox and Ginkgo have great potential for positive long term results.  At this point I have not noticed too much positive effect from the Ginkgo, but I am only a week into it and am only taking a small dose.  My best results so far have come from Vitamin E and Arginine.   The results from Vitamin E have been very consistent, but the results from Arginine, while impressive, have been spotty and hard to manage.  At this point I am planning to start on a new Arginine product, SANs VasoFlow http://www.sann.net/vasoflow_sci_info.html which looks very interesting in terms of its potential benefits for Peyronies.  I will let you all know how that turns out.

- George

[Rico]

George:

I know you like to take small doses, but with ginkgo you really need to take 60mg twice a day for several weeks to see the results one is looking for....this not that much....

Rico

[George999]

I have been taking 60mg once a day with no apparent problems ... as of today I am upping to twice a day ... -George

[Tim468]

The dry aloe in capsules is actually a very harsh laxitive that you don't want to risk.  It is not recommended by the medical community and I really don't know why the even sell it.  It is so harsh it can be dangerous.  
- George

I would say that this bears repeating.... oops - gotta run!!

Tim

[mark501]

I, along with others on the forum have tried Korean red ginseng. A new source for this item is   www.swansonvitamins.com   They have quite a large number of different herbs, spices, roots, leaves, seeds, etc. in standardized & non-standardized form. Their printed catalog is very interesting.

[JW]

Hi Forest,

The literature I've seen on Potaba is not so much that it's going to cure you, but it significantly reduces your odds of getting worse.  In the year-long study published in European Urology, 2005, Weidner et al. found that there was a slight change in the number of people who got better in the Potaba group versus the placebo group (53% versus about 45%), but there was a big difference in the percentage of people who got worse (about 3% of the Potaba group versus about 32% on the placebo).  Overall, plaque size decreased by more on average in the potaba group, but the big impact seems to be in keeping you from getting worse.  The difference in the treatment versus placebo group seems to be noticeable after 3 months of treatment.

Personally, I think I stopped getting worse after being on it for a month or so, but one sample point does not provide a lot of information.  And I also can only take the powder form as taking 24 pills/day makes me queasy.

JW

Hi everyone,  Forest here.  Newbie to the group.  Sorry if not doing this post correctly.  Still learning the board and format.
Dx with Peyronies about 8 months ago.  Had sudden onset 45 degree lateral curvature.  Condition has not worsened nor improved while following urologist recommendations of 800mg VE, 1000mg Calcium, 50mg Zinc, hold extra VC, and 15 minute manual massage of plaque per day.  After 3 months on this regimine with no change, I opted to try the Potaba which I have been on now for a month with no change in condition as of yet.   I am wondering if anyone has advice/feedback for me on any of this treatment.  Also, is it true that the type and quality of the vitamin E makes that much difference?    I have spent way to much money following this rumor for other health conditions without any positive differences and therefore, I am reluctant to do so with VE unless you know of actual positive results.  Also, what do you think of the manual massage idea?  Seems detrimental to me.  And, lastly, what do you guys think of Potaba?
Appreciate the help and look forward to getting to know everyone.
Thanks,
Forest

[percival]

Forest
At the onset of Peyronies Disease, I was prescribed 12g/day Potaba which I took for about 18 months. It did not cure the problem for me, However, there seems to be evidence from properly controlled trials that it does help some people.
Good luck
Percival

[frankiewa]

I am going to try the pentox/ L-Arginine/Cialis? routine soon.  Does anyone know if cialis could take place of viagra since both do similar things. Also how much Pentoxifylline should (I) advise my urologist to prescribe me?  

[Kimo]

Hey Guy's,,,kimo here.....I have 3 brand new bottles of Potaba , 250 capsules ea 0.5Gm per capsule, and then realized could not take it because of another existing condition...If any one would like to pay the postage i will give them to you...My ins coverd most of it and i had paid 30.00 for the presc......If anyone is interested just write me on my e-mail address...

Thanks and blessings to all and Mele Kalikimaka,,,,,,,kimo

[Liam]

I believe it is 400mg 3 time a day (without going to look).  But, a urologist will have this info.  He will look it up.

[ComeBacKid]

The standard dosage according to Dr. Levine on the APDA's ask the doctor section is 400mg 3 times per day, to be taken with food...  If you don't you will more than likely have an upset stomach.

ComeBackid

[myrddin]

The standard dosage according to Dr. Levine on the APDA's ask the doctor section is 400mg 3 times per day, to be taken with food...

According to the papers that came with my perscription, 3x/400mg/day is the standard dosage, but don't be surprised if your Uro starts you at 2x.  Mine did.  There is no "standard dosage" of Pentox for peyronie's (though most recent studies have used 3x/400mg) because this drug is still a relatively new, and mostly unknown, treatment for Peyronie's.  It's still up to your Uro to make his best (or, safest) guess.

[bart]

I want to try some natural supplements to have a shot at my fixing my Peyronies Disease. I was wondering what natural supplements work? Also what prescription meds are the best to ask for when I see my doctor? Also is L-Carnitine the same thing as ALC?

[scott]

My doctor put me on the standard dosage, which is 400mg 3 times a day.  My doctor doesn't seem to think that pentox ever hurt anyone, so you might want to check into getting that dosage increased, unless you have some other health condition that precludes it.

[Tim468]

ALC is "acetyl L-Carnitine". There are other forms as well, including propionyl L-Carnitine and plain old carnitine.

Tim

[bart]

So If I go to the shop and get somthing that has L-Carnitine on the label, this will be the right stuff? Does this stuff actually help the situation?  Ive started taking arginine - 500mg twice daily and im taking Levitra every 48hrs in small dose, just to get it up.

[Hawk]

ALC is "acetyl L-Carnitine".

In response of does it really work.  It is not a secret cure for Peyronies Disease.  One very small study indicated it had a significant impact.  Myself, and some others have seen a direct correlation between starting and stopping ALC with turning pain off and on.  I take it between 2000 and 3000 grams per day in divided dose.

[ComeBacKid]

I was confused as you in the beginning, I was buying L Carnitine, this is NOT Acetyl L Carnitine.  They offer a Acetyl L Carnitine I now get mixed with alpha lipoic acid, you can look into that as well.

ComeBackid

[Tim468]

>>So If I go to the shop and get somthing that has L-Carnitine on the label, this will be the right stuff?<<

No, that will not be the right stuff. If you want acetyl L-carnitine, then buy that. The acetyl group makes it a different supplement than plain old L-carnitine.

Tim

[Tamarack]

Is anyone else having trouble getting orders through to Bulk Nutrition? I've called the 800 order number numerous times over the past weeks and leave my number, as the recording requests; however, I get no return call.

Does someone know of a reputable alternative? I like Bulk Nutrition's rock-bottom pricing, but I also need the product!

[George999]

I have been using iherb.com in southern california for the past few months..  They don't have quite as large a selection as bulk nutrition and their prices are just a tad higher, but they have given me great service.  And orders of over $100 ship free.  So you might want to check them out.  Sorry you are having problems with bulk nutrition in north carolina.  They have a great selection and indeed great prices, but if they don't deliver or communicate, thats a problem!

- George

[Liam]

I got an email flyer from BN on the 11th of Dec.

[Tamarack]

Thanks George and Liam for your input. After posting here this afternoon, it occurred to me to send Bulk Nutrition an e-mail, and I got a phone response almost immediately. Dennis apologized, saying they'd been having been having trouble with their phone service for weeks, and he gave me free shipping to make up for my pain and suffering. I told him I was in such misery that only a $50 gift certificate would make up for it, but he didn't go for it!

[George999]

I want to just share a note of encouragement and an update.  Over the past few days I have noticed an unusual level of burning pain in my plaques (I normally don't experience any pain).  I was a bit concerned, but since I have been meticulous in taking my anti-inflammatories, I just decided to wait it out and see what happened.  And then last night I noted a significant reduction in the size and effect (the characteristic bend straightened strikingly) of those plaques, especially the one in my septum which has been the most stubborn of the two.  This seemed odd, as I had always sort of associated pain with progression rather than regression.  I also want to include in this post my most recent supplement modifications (So far I have experimented with over 30 different supplements and have been attempting to weed out those that are ineffective or not cost effective).  Supplements have been my primary tool in dealing with the Peyronies issue.

1)  Some weeks ago I increased my Vitamin E intake to 1600IU per day and then to 2000IU per day, taking it as part of a 'stack' in order to ward off unwanted dangerous side effects.

2)  Also a few weeks ago I began taking Ginkgo at 60mg per day and then upped that to 120mg per day.  Rico swears by it and I can't help thinking that it is contributing to this apparent new level of success.

3)  About a week ago I began taking SAN VasoFlow, an engineered Arginine formula in a soft gel.  I am taking 1 soft gel before rising in the morning and one more before evening treadmill exercise.  VasoFlow, by the way, has some very interesting ingredients.   1) Di-Arginine-Orotate  which is an innovative Arginine compound designed to cross cell membranes easily and permeate tissue with Arginine NO substrate that would normally not be permeable..  2) L-Arginine-Ethyl Ester DiHCl which is another innovative Arginine compound designed to survive stomach acids without breaking down and, again, to cross cell membranes easily and thus better permeate tissue.  3) L-Histidine HCl, a synergystic agent in NO production. 4) Ornithine-Alpha Ketoglutarate, another NO synergist. 5) Proanthocyanidins otherwise known as OPCs, powerful antioxidants intended to clean up any free radicals caused by increased NO generation. 6) Cnidium Monnier, a powerful PDE-5 inhibitor and cGMP up regulator, 7) L-Norvaline, an Arginase inhibitor.  In addition, this is a soft gel enclosed liquid formulation designed such that some of the ingredients are more readily available than they would be in dry form, BUT they have also suspended some of the ingredients in time release particles in order to potentate their effects to the max.  I am just really convinced that this is the ultimate Arginine formulation for Peyronies at this point and have great expectations as to its potential positive effects.

My next venture will be Magnesium Oratate, which is purported to have the unique ability to nourish elastin in the vascular tissues making them at once softer and stronger.

I have noticed that there have been people around here who are successfully combining Vitamin E with the PAV cocktail or Ginkgo with the PAV cocktail WITH their doctor's knowledge and approval.  I can't help but wonder if these added supplements might have the potential for greatly adding to the effectiveness of the PAV cocktail.  I am also wondering if the VasoFlow might not be an interesting substitute for the Arginine in the PAV cocktail?   It would be interesting to know what someone like Dr. Lue might think about that.  There are just so many interesting possibilities everywhere on the supplement front.

- George

[PJ]

Hey George,

Would you please post a link to the SAN VasoFlow product? I (and probably some others) would like to research it.
---PJ

[George999]

Heres the link:

http://www.sann.net/vasoflow_sci_info.html

[Tim468]

George, I really appreciate your thoughtfulness and attention to detail. It is extremely encouraging that you are getting better, too!

Tim

[DannyOcean]

Anyone know what the recommended dosage of Pycnogenol is?  I'm planning to take this with L-Arginine and have 100 mg capsules but don't have a sense of how I should do dosage.  Any suggestions?

[ComeBacKid]

Has anyone seen any encouraging results from taking pentox?  

[DannyOcean]

Has anyone seen any encouraging results from taking pentox?  

I've noticed a lot more "fullness" lately.  Part of this is probably due to Pentox.  I'd also attribute at least some of this to daily sessions of groin massage which help to increase the circulation in that region.  I haven't noticed any improvements in my curve but it doesn't seem to be worsening either.

[Old Man]

Danny:

For the benefit of this 77 year old mind, please elaborate more on what you term groin massage.

Thanks, Old Man

[Rico]

George I'm glad that you are seeing improvement....my research on ginkgo showed that you can do up to 240mg a day....I was taking 180mg per day, 60mg three times.....

I read that Lue doesn't have you do anything but the pav....my doctor asked me if I was doing any drugs when he prescribed the pentox, I told him about ginkgo and other supplements, and he said,"Any real Drugs":).....

Before adding something, maybe the increase in dose might be the ticket for you on the ginkgo...

I have been on the pav cocktail now for a month...for me it has been a step backwards....it threw me off my diet and exercise program, over all health, upset stomach ect.....I can take two a day, with milk and bland food.....
I can't also do the ved with it, cause red dots on head of my unit if use with pentox...this didn't happen with ginkgo?

I know one has to be consistent in anything they do to be successful, and with are program, and George you are good at that......I feel like I failed by switching over to the pav program....now I'm at the crossroads of switching back to what was working or wait and see with this and the nasty taste and effects of pentox....it is cheap....$10. per month on my insurance....but once again my over all well being has been effected by it....

Has anyone seen any results from it that are positive? The fullness is there from it, but once I went to 180mg of ginkgo I was also getting this effect.....

I was told that many people give up on the VED after two months, or hit a wall....I wonder if this is like supplements also, or pav cocktail.....it seems one has to stick with a program, the hard thing is not knowing what to do, my gut told me to stay on the ginkgo and ved and exercise program and diet...I was getting good results.....kept reading post on pentox...the best thing out there ect....I do believe it was a mistake for me...now I'm at a crossroads with it.....I miss eating really good food, spicy, curry ect....and the exercising, I also think maybe the other supplements might of given me a sense of general well being, OPC's are good for you.....the taste of pentox is such a chemical...nasty.....

Rico

[George999]

Rico, dealing with Peyronies (or any other fibrotic disease) takes dedication and persistence.  You really can't go by what you see.  You have to pay attention to what you know.  And you can only 'know'  by reading the research.  Right after I posted that very positive post, my own situation again regressed.  But that is typical of Peyronies.  And it does not discourage me, because each time it gets better, it gets better than it was before.

As for your own situation, 1) Pentox is known to work, that is the important thing. 2) There is at least one person out there posting on this forum who is taking Ginkgo concurrently with Pentox and apparently not having any overt problems.  3) I think there is probably no reason you could not take Vitamin E with Pentox as long as you buffer it with Vitamin K.  4) I am not sure why the Pentox is interfering with your exercise routine and former diet?  5)  To prevent the 'red spots' you should be taking Rutin, proven to strengthen capillaries (other supps reputed to strengthen capillaries and prevent bleeding are OPCs, and magnesium orotate, and even Ginkgo itself).  Another supp PROVEN to strengthen capillaries is horse chestnut, *BUT be very careful with horse chestnut as it has anti-platelet properties and can be dangerous when taken with Pentox - added 01-15-07 by George*.  Some things to try for all you out there struggling with how to do Pentox and VED at the same time. 6) I really don't see how OPCs would conflict with Pentox.

But again, EVERTHING known to counteract fibrosis works SLOWLY, VERY SLOWLY, so conquering this disease is a matter of patient persistence.  Don't give up, just keep pushing away at it and eventually you WILL see progress.  And beware of high priced products that make extravagant claims.  They are ALL rip offs, guaranteed.

Hope you all have a great Christmas!

- George

PS - I am already considering upping the Ginkgo.  Its at the top of my list right now.  I have started the magnesium orotate as well, will see how that works out.  The VasoFlow is working splendidly at this point, much more action out of a lower dose of Arginine.

[Hawk]

 The VasoFlow is working splendidly at this point, much more action out of a lower dose of Arginine.

George,

I am interested in having you expound on exactly what you mean by that statement.

Thanks

[George999]

I am just finding it more more consistent in providing the kind of response one would expect from Arginine.  I'm sorry I was so vague, I should clarify additionally that I have seen no specific sudden positive effects from it on my Peyronies condition.  But the general Arginine effect of observable vascular dilation, lowered blood pressure, etc. is more profound and less erratic in my experience so far (on previous occasions with other products, the Arginine actually seemed to be raising my blood pressure - weird).  It also tends to be more long lasting.  I realize all this is very subjective, but I have tried nearly a half dozen different forms of Arginine so far and this is the first one that is giving me the results I have expected.  I have fairly severe hypertension and know that I am very likely Arginine resistant and that this is not true of everyone.  But from my subjective perspective I am very happy with it and to tell you the truth, due to my past experience, I was almost expecting to be disappointed once again.  Hope this helps.

- George

[bart]

Does anyone here know anything about Bromelain? Does it work and what is the dosage? Ive heard it can help Peyronies Disease but they also said to not take it for more than a week to 10 days? Does anyone know what that means?  

[PJ]

Hey ComeBackid,

Its only been three weeks on Pentox and I had to taper up due to GI issues so its far too soon to tell. I will posts in a couple months.
---PJ

[ComeBacKid]

PJ,

I haven't had any problems keeping the pentox done, I always take it with food and the l arginine to be honest.  I have noticed my legs feeling weird and getting restless, causing me to have to get up if I'm sitting down and walk around.  I don't know if this is from the blood thinning effects and increasing circulation in the lower half of my body- anyway its a pretty weird feeling.  I did have restless legs before this, but this seems to have made it worse.  If i'm standing up and walking around it doesn't seem to bother me, only when I'm sitting down.  The feeling is really more in my ankles and feet not really my legs.  Other than this I've noticed better flaccid hang and more full erections- no other side effects here.  Keep me posted on your progress and side effects and if you notice your curve improving at all.

ComeBackid

[mark501]

Bart, The following is from the Austin Texas Diagnostic Clinic (Urology): Take 750MG of bromelain 3 times daily on empty stomach. It helps prevent the deposition of fibrin which is believed to cause the conective tissue to thicken. It may take up to 6 weeks of using bromelain before results are noted. Their page on peyronie's is at http://www.adclinic.com/Doctors_Specialties_maps/Urology/peyroniesdisease.htm     They do not say if the bromelain should be enteric coated or not. If it is not enteric coated this amount of bromelain could potentially cause a lot of stomach distress. There are many sources of the enteric version on the internet. There is also a topical version of bromelain but I would suggest a lot of research before trying it.  It may be a prescription item; not sure.  Mark501

[Rico]

George you asked me how pentox could effect my diet and exercise program, when one has GI issues it effects there well being and this will effect your exercising and diet, if you have acid reflux it is hard to work out....and of course GI issues will effect what you eat.....it also effected my sleep, waking up with acid reflux.....

After a month and cutting back things have gotten better, but still have to watch diet and can't work out for several hours after taking pentox....

I think pentox works for getting to your penis for blow flow....and it has been said or shown to have effect without the blow flow on rats.....I don't know if it is  for me though....I have heart burn right now, somedays it just doesn't take well.....I never had stomach problems or acid reflux before starting the pentox....I feel for people who have this problem, a sour stomach can effect everything you do....

The good news with it is that some people don't have any bad effects, I see that PJ is having GI issues also....

Rico

[PJ]

 Mostly I just had to taper up the Pentox dosage, starting with a nightly tablet. Then a few days later I added one in the morning and now I am up to the full three times daily dosage and tolerating it well. When I started off all at once, whew... not so pleasant. But now only ocassional heartburn controllable with maybe a single tums a day. I hope in a week or two, to tolerate the Pentox completely.
As far as restless legs, nothing like that. I have noticed a little bit of flushing for maybe an hour after I take it. No difference in erection to note at this time.
My main problems has been daily Cialis setting off my migraines. However i saw my migraine doctor today. He's the best doctor I have ever met and he is working with me so that I can continue with the Peyronies treatment, even though its messing with the migraine treatment. Since this means additional abortive painkillers and muscle relaxants, you understand what a professional he is. He did say he hasn't encountered Peyronies since med school, not that its his specialty, and was quite interested and empathatic.

---PJ

[myrddin]

Actually, lately I've been wondering if my Pentox pills are dummy pills or something.  I'm 12 weeks into taking them, and I never notice ANY effect from them anymore, and even the effects I used to feel (fuller hang & fast, full erections) have been gone for about the past couple weeks.  Maybe it's the colder weather, but my unit seems back to its tightly constricted, turtling self of a few months ago.

About 10 weeks ago, 2-3 wks into my Pentox treatment, I ran out of ALC and didn't replenish my supply since I figured Pentox would carry the progress from there.  But since then, I've noticed a progressive traveling of my bend toward the side, so that when erect the bend leans toward the left (only slightly).  And slight bottleneck when partially erect.  All this worsening, while consistently on Pentox. So I'm wondering, should I start back on ALC?

Anyhoo -- this all seems illogical, considering Pentox reputedly is more effective while in the active phase.  So far I'm less than impressed.  But I'm hanging in there for the long term.  My checkup with my Uro isn't for another 6 weeks, so I'll keep doing what I'm doing.  Which is: Pentox 2x/day, Vit. E 800IU/day, L-Arg 3g/day, plus a fish oil & a multi.  

[Rico]

myrddin:

Is there a reason you are not taking the cialis or viagra? I know you said you are not getting fuller erections....the pentox should be at full effect now after three months...that does seem strange that you hang is gone now....could be stress....holidays and all......

Rico

[serpicor]

I'm wondering if red wine would be just as good as some of these other pills.  Look at this article: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041208082150.htm

[George999]

Re Pentox:  Sorry you all are having such a difficult time with the Pentox.  While there is no question about the effectiveness of Pentox over the long term (It has been well demonstrated by research), it does have nasty side effects and the problem is to achieve an effective dose and not succumb to the side effects.  This is why it is usually prescribed WITH other meds and supps and why it is important to have the support of a caring physician who is willing to improvise as necessary to counter the side effects and eventually achieve success.  Thanks so much Rico for explaining the connection, I guess I was a little dense not to pick up on it.  My apologies and I pray that you are able to get your side effects under control.

Re Bromelain:  Anyone contemplating using Bromelain to control fibrinogen should also look into Nattokinase.  I believe it is just as effective in the end and it has zero side effects.  I have been using both Bromelain and Nattokinaise and I am planning to quit the Bromelain as soon as my current supply is finished because it is so harsh on the gastro tract when used at the recommended amount and Natto is to my knowledge a better and well proven approach.  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8593442&dopt=Abstract

Re Red Wine:  I think you would have to drink a lot of Red Wine (way too much) to get the beneficial effects that are available from common OPC/Pycnogenol/Resveratrol supplements.

[csup]

I started taking pentox a little over 2 weeks ago. I had been and still am taking zantac 150 twice a day for other stomach related problems. I started the pentox at the 3 dose/day (400mg ea) regimen and have not had any side effects. I do make certain to take it right after a meal or at least a good snack. I have not noticed any real change since I have been taking it. I did read that it might take up to 12 weeks to see any improvement, but this was for the claudication condition for which it is normally prescribed for. Sometimes it feels like my plaque is smaller, but that could be wishfull thinking on my part. I do still experience a low degree of pain during an erection. I am also still applying the TV, but am not at all convinced this is doing anything besides leaving a coating on me. Time will tell. crs