ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[Liam]

I've read a few good reports related to ED which might be inferred to aid in blood flow.  Any thoughts on Korean Red Ginseng?

I actually tried it.  Unclear results.  I stopped taking it for a while.

[Hawk]

In the "Open Question" topic

Hawk,

I believe the l-arginine to have a synergistic effect on the Viagra.  I told my uro I was taking it and he thought it was OK (but, not optimistic).

I am going to see if my GP will change me to trazodone.

I am not sure synergistic is the proper description here.  A Viagra and a Levitra taken together may increase your erection right before they kill you.  IF L-arginine is a  nitric oxide donor, and Viagra warns not to take with a nitric oxide donor, then that is all I need unless an MD or pharmacist that fully understands the question gives me a rational reason it is OK to combine them.

Death and stroke are even worse on your sex life than Peyronies Disease

[Blink]

Death and stroke are even worse on your sex life than Peyronies Disease
            AMEN, BROTHER!!!

[Tim468]

I am trying to figure this one out, Hawk. Where we have to be careful here (for each other) is in giving advice that may not be good to generalize.

Thus, a young man without heart disease may do well with arginine, sildenafil, citrulline, and god know what else, whereas someone else may find it too challenging physiologically.

My thought is that the synergy of viagra (which is a phosphodiesterase inhibitor) an arginine that donates NO might be good, and might be bad - depending on who takes them.

Tim

[greg]

Hello, this is my first post.  I have been reading through the forum for a while and would like to tell you about me and what I am thinking about for a treatment regiment.  I am 54 years old and have been suffering with Peyronies Disease for about a year.  I first notice two concave depression on the under side of my penis with a slight downward bend.  This lasted about 6 months and I wasn't sure what was happening.  Then they disappeared and I notice that another depression was developing on the left top side near the base. I went to the dr. and he examined me and told that I was developing Peyronies Disease but he didn't feel any fibroid or calcification.  As this progressed I developed abend to the left and the head of my penis bent to the right. The pain was terrible.  I have further developed a second depression on the the right side and now I have and additional bend upward.  I now have a continuous hard nodule that runs the complete length on the top side.  I can feel it when my penis is flaccid, and is really painful upon an erection.  What an ugly sight my man is at attention.
I began a search to learn as much as possible, and found this forum.  Thanks for being here.  It has helped me cope with this.  
I have been taking 1000mg of Acetly-L Cartinine, 200 mg of Nattokinase, and DMSO 70% lotion per day for 3 months. I also have begun epsom salt baths.
Now I am going to try serrapeptase, msm, and magnesium sulfate cream.
I just googled and found this web site and I will paste in this thread.  I do not advocate any websites or products for anyone.  

http://www.pyrotab.com/index.html

Just trying to learn an make the best of it.  Any comments would be welcomed.  Has anyone has tried this product.

thanks
Greg

[George999]

If one does a simple google search on Pyrotab, one will immediately discover that what they do best is web spam.  Also note that they are a commercial website advertising and 'amazing' product and yet not revealing any names as to who the principles of their organization are.   And unless you can verify research via the pubmed library ( http://www.pubmed.gov ), don't believe the claims.  Virtually anybody can advertise a worthless product with carefully worded PR and collect huge sums from gullible suckers.  Be very afraid.

[George999]

AHA!  Wouldn't you know it!  Pyrotab has already been discussed at length on this very site.  So Greg ... check this out ... just search the page for "pyrotab" and you'll find all kinds of fascinating information:

https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,45.0.html

[greg]

Thanks for the reply George999.  I thought it looked to good to be true.  Rico, I have been a little lax with the DMSO, but it seems to help when I use it.  I started using 2-3 times a day primarily on the top side, full length of the shaft.  It does relieve some of the pain.

[Rico]

Greg I see you use 70%, is this a gel, mixed with aloe or clear and do you notice any smell, bad breath ect....or blistering? I have some of the same systems as you, I had no plaque at the start, just hour glass, and then two months down the road I got a slight bend and plaque. I have never had pain till this day. I guess we are all a little different. I'm interested in dmso and sski and any topical and also VED, have you tried this? Thanks.

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

Greg,

Are you not using thackers formula?  Just the DMSO?  I believe the breakdown for thackers is 70-20-10, I'm thinking of trying it eventually, I have a bottle of DMSO here, and will be ordering the other parts of the formula in the next couple of weeks.  Do you get any burning or itching from you DMSO?  Any noticeable reduction in plaque or curve?

[Fighter]

I just received my Maca (Powder Form) and I got to tell you that this stuff does not smell nor taste good! I read somewhere that it smells and tastes good but I cannot say it does. Has anybody else tried it in the powder form? I mix it with my protein drink (1 Tea Spoon=5 grams) in the mornings which is banana cream and this stuff makes it taste like yuck! If anybody out there has the powder form let me know what you mix it with.

Thanks

[George999]

My understanding is that maca should have a "sweet nutty" taste and at least one vendor advertises their product as such and warns of bitter taste in competing products due to processing techniques.  I take the tablet form, so I really have never tasted it until now.  So I just chewed one of the tablets and noticed a kind of biting bitter component that was rather unsavory.  I also have some tabs from another vendor and their product was significantly less bitter, so there does seem to be some variation in taste between products.  I know that at least one other person here on this forum was trying to make the powder form palettable and perhaps they can comment on this issue.

[Fighter]

I guess it is a bitter nutty taste?? I can't put my finger on it but it is not sweet at all. I will keep trying things to mix with it until I get a reasonable taste at of it but I am not sure if anything will help. It says you can cook with it so maybe I will try putting it on some foods.

[greg]

Rico,
I am using a liquid DMSO that is 70% DMSO and 30% aloe vera with a fresh mint fragrance.  I haven't noticed any bad smell and my sweetheart said that I don't smell to her.  I have not had any blistering or discomfort.  I am also applying a msm cream first and then the DMSO.

Pudder135
I haven't tried the Thacker formula yet, it seems to be a little cumbersome.  But I will be looking into it.
I haven't noticed a reduction in the plaque yet, it may be to soon to see results.  I have been massaging in the msm cream prior to applying the DMSO.  I have noticed that my pain is less.  Prior to the onset of Peyronies Disease I was taking hyaluronic acid with chondroitin.  I think I read on one post that either glucosomine or chondroitin may contribute to the onset of Peyronies Disease.  Makes me wonder.  

[ComeBacKid]

Has anyone tried any of these pills to increase libido:

Wellbutrin- I believe one fellow on here was taking that?
yohimbine
Ginkgo biloba
Oriental ginseng

After spending a year on Lexapro, which greatly decreased my sex drive, I believe the lack of daytime erections and fresh oxygen being brought into my erectile tissue may have made my peyronies condition worse.  I'm looking for something to boost my libido.  If anyone knows any information or has tried any of those pills and can give their input that would be great.

ComeBackid

[Liam]

All that and DHEA, too.  No help with libido.  The Wellbutrin does what its supposed to do.

However, I think the Korean Red Ginseng may have some benefit for ED.

Check the following:

Clinical efficacy of Korean red ginseng for erectile dysfunction.

Choi HK, Seong DH, Rha KH.

Severance Institute of Andrology Research, Yonsei University, College of Medicine, Seoul, Korea.

To investigate the efficacy in treating erectile dysfunction and to develop a natural drug without complications, the results of ginseng treatments are compared to placebo and other drug. A total of 90 patients with 30 patients in each group were closely followed. Changes in symptoms such as frequency of intercourse, premature ejaculation, and morning erections after treatment were not changed in all three groups (p > 0.05). However in the group receiving ginseng, changes in early detumescence and erectile parameters such as penile rigidity and girth, libido and patient satisfactions were significantly higher than that of other groups (p < 0.05). The overall therapeutic efficacies on erectile dysfunction were 60% for ginseng group and 30% for placebo and trazodone treated groups, statistically confirming the effect of ginseng (p < 0.05). No complete remission of erectile dysfunction was noted, but partial responses were reported. No cases of aggravation of symptoms were reported. AVS-penogram, which is a recording of penile hemodynamic changes during the natural erection after audiovisual erotic stimulation, is not changed after administration of ginseng. However if administered for a prolonged period of time, the cummulative effect on vascular flow might be seen. The administration of Korean red ginseng has shown to have superior effects compared to the placebo or trazodone. Definitely more researches are required to elucidate the mechanism of ginseng. The effects of saponin, extracted from ginseng, on smooth muscle of erectile tissues, can be evaluated using organ chamber or nitric oxide titration, thereby pinpointing the exact action mechanism of saponin. As more informations are available, possible breakthrough in treatment of erectile dysfunction could be arisen from active saponin extracted from red ginseng, bringing hopes to many sufferers of erectile dysfunction.
Source   http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8750052&dopt=Abstract

[zigwyth]

What the Heck is Maca, guys?
Zig the twig

[Liam]

Maca - It's a southern broad tip writing instrument used for making postuhs.


I'm from the south;  I can say this.

Seriously:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maca_%28plant%29

[ComeBacKid]

I took trazodone last night, half a pill before I went to sleep.  I woke up twice being half awake and had solid erections, when I woke up today I had excellent bloodflow and my member was hanging bigger than normal.  This drug is really cheap only $4 per month with my insurance copay.  I think this can only be a good thing, especially after reading this out of the library here on the site:

"Oxygen levels appear to affect two substances that are important in achieving
erection: transforming growth factor 1 (TGF-B1) and prostaglandin E1. The
smooth muscles in the penis produce TGF-B1, a component of the immune system,
and one of its roles is to produce collagen. Collagen contributes not only to
structural tissue in the body, but is also the material that comprises scar
tissue. Prostaglandin E1, among its other functions, opens blood vessels and
suppresses collagen production. There is some evidence that when oxygen levels
become too low, TGF-B1 production increases and prostaglandin production
decreases. If oxygen levels become too low, smooth muscles atrophy and collagen
is overproduced, causing scarring and loss of elasticity and reduced blood flow
to the penis. Infrequent erections deprive the penis of oxygen-rich blood.
Without daily erections, collagen production increases and eventually may form
a tough tissue that interferes with blood flow in the penis."

It also reads on that nightime erections give much more oxygen to the penis than daytime erections. I also read that erections caused by a VED can't supplement natural erections, cause they bring in no fresh oxygen.  

It would seem to me that if trazodone can give one nighttime erections and bring in fresh oxygen when its most pure, this could be a good thing to possibly help heal the peyronies plaque, or prevent further collagen development.

[Liam]

Similar findings to what I've seen, but. this paper is new to my eyes.  It is very encouraging.

http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3908&context=postprints

[Hawk]

Liam,

I am not sure I tuned into exactly which of the many points you found encouraging in that interesting report of 2 men with 96 hour erections from Trazodone.  

For clarification, I do want to say that the amount of trozadone needed to encourage night time erections is 1/2 of the smallest tablet needed.  This is less than 1/10th the normal dosage that many patients are routinely perscribed for trazodone's primary use (depression and insomnia). Trazodone is a very common, long established prescription drug with an very safe track record.   While I have no doubt that rare individuals can have very unusual reactions to any prescriptions drug, I think the key word here is rare at any dose, unheard of at 1/2 of a 50mg tablet.

I have always been interested in the lack of response to my posts on trazodone.  ComeBackid now makes 4 out of 4 that have gotten the same desired results from this very inexpensive dose of trazodone.

[ComeBacKid]

The way I read that paper is that viagra, Pentox, and L Arginine are good in treating peyroines or preventing further fibrosis, but that trazodone is bad because the priaprism it can cause worsens or can spark fibrosis.  Hawk you make good points in that I'm only taking half of a 50mg pill.  Your right in that higher doses are prescribed for depression and insomnia, my doctor confirmed this.  

[zigwyth]

So would there be any concerns to taking both Pentox and Trazadone. Perhaps Tim can chime in on this?
Zig The Twig

[Hawk]

Trazodone is long establised, well tested,  with a long history of being safe and and well tolerated.

It is not habit forming.

I comes in 50mg, 100mg, 200mg, and 300mg tablets

Starting dose for adults being treated for depression is 50mgs 3 times per day

Even at daily doses of  600mg (in divided doses) It is very rare that it causes any level of prolonged erection is males with or without erectile problems.

It is unheard of for a 25mg dose to cause prolonged erection in anyone, much less one with comprimised erections.

At 25mg, Its success rate for restoring noctornal erections is very consistant.  This is an astounding 1/6 of a beginning intake and 1/24th of a maximum intake of this drug.  

It is dirt cheap

It has been used in many ED clinical trials with and without other substances such a yohimbee.

It has a few drug and alcohol interactions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trazodone   (this is one of about a million links)

[zigwyth]

Hawk, Let me reclarify as I apologize that I was not more specific the first time. 2) questions.
1)Does anyone see a problem or possible concern with for the most part, a healthy middle-aged male that has just gotten a clean bill of health except for Acid Reflux(Protonix),--With taking trazadone(25mg), Pentox(don't know how much yet), along with the other recommended supplements that I keep seeing on this forum L-arginine, ACL, etc., ALL Together.? And yes, I know there are risks involved in all aspects of life, especially with medications, and this may be a vague question, but what the heck. Most of us are Guinea pigs anyway it seems.
2) What would you tell the doctor in order for him to more willingly prescribe the trazadone and pentox. Insomnia, depression, Peyronies Disease??
Thanks Ziggy

[ComeBacKid]

Hawk,

The thing I was curious about and pondering was why does trazodone only give erections at night? When I woke up last night twice in my sleep I had solid hard ons, and I also gained semi erections while dozing off to sleep.  When I woke up rather suddenly my erections quickly subsided.  For some reason it seems that trazodone triggers erections only while your sleeping, I wonder why this is and what the mechanism is?  I may try to take a half dose tomorrow during the day to see if I get any increased libido while I'm awake.  Another good point hawk has pointed out that my doctor confirmed is this drug is not even close to habit forming at the dosage level we are taking it, let alone even at a higher dosage, most sleep drugs are habit forming.  

ComeBackid

[rem1954]

Hello Gentlemen:

My name is Bob Miller, a traditional Naturopath in PA. One of this forums members came to see me regarding his Peyronies Disease and told me about the forum. I spent quite a bit of time reading, and am impressed with your persistence and knowledge and willingness to help.

I want to research this so I can help him with this.

I am well connected in the natural health field and I have placed some inquiries with experts in various fields.

I am researching:

-Enzymes, by discussions with a medical grade enzyme producer,
-Herbal approaches (particularly gota kola and ginko) with one of the best   herbalists in the world, and
-I am looking at if there is a possible calcium utilization problem.

If there is interest on this forum, I'd be glad to post what I hear from the experts.

By the way, I'm curious if any of you with Peyronies have had gall stones, kidney stones or bone spurs (like heel spurs)

Regards,

Bob

[Liam]

Hawk,  I am so sorry.  I should have explained my post better.  I was about to go out of town when I found it and wanted to post quickly so everyone could read it.  BTW, I plan on switching to Trazodone.   I absolutely believe it is safe in the doses you mention.  What triggered priapism was not what I found interesting.

This conclusion is the interesting part.

Conclusions. An antifibrotic regimen consisting of upregulators of NO production may ameliorate the corporal fibrosis associated with recalcitrant priapism.

This explains the connection between priapism and fibrosis.

Introduction

Priapism, if left unresolved, results in localized
ischemia to the corporal tissue that may lead
to the development of corporal fibrosis [1]. Pathologically,
corporal fibrosis is identified by the loss
of corporal smooth muscle cells and an excess of
collagen deposition...


Further conclusions:

Therefore, it is conceivable that the
antifibrotic properties of sildenafil and other PDE
inhibitors may be utilized in the future to treat
conditions for which it is currently contraindicated.

In summary, it appears that the corporal fibrosis
that is the ultimate result of prolonged untreated
priapism may be attenuated by drugs that upregulate
the effects of NO. Although the use of these
compounds to treat postpriapistic fibrosis, either
individually or in combination, is to be considered
investigational at this point, if clinically successful
in future randomized, double-blind clinical trials,
one may speculate that upregulators of NO may
be useful in the management of other conditions
characterized by fibrosis.

Source:  http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3908&context=postprints

This is essentially the same regimen we have seen in two other studies this year.  In my excitement, I lost clarity.  Hope this post makes up for it.  

Liam

[Liam]

 

Again, I would take Trazodone in a heartbeat.  

Penicillin is a safe drug.  If I took it I would go into shock.

There are even risks associated with aspirin.

[Hawk]

1)Does anyone see a problem or possible concern with for the most part, a healthy middle-aged male that has just gotten a clean bill of health except for Acid Reflux(Protonix),--With taking trazadone(25mg), Pentox(don't know how much yet), along with the other recommended supplements that I keep seeing on this forum L-arginine, ACL, etc., ALL Together.? And yes, I know there are risks involved in all aspects of life, especially with medications, and this may be a vague question, but what the heck...
2) What would you tell the doctor in order for him to more willingly prescribe the trazadone and pentox. Insomnia, depression, Peyronies Disease??

Zig, no need to apologize.  I was not put off by any of these posts just not real clear if I fully understood them. I can't recommend every combination of supplement and I know you realize that and realize I have ZERO medical training.  I do however take everything you mentioned except pentox.  I see no contraindication mentioned for pentox.  My doctor knows all my supplements and did not hesitate to prescribe Trazodone.  

I n my case, I have a very good doctor that listens.  He has worked with specialist hours away following my prostatectom.  He removed their hemovac and catheter (with their OK).  This saved me an all day trip back to NYC.  My local urologists refused by the way.  When I developed Peyronies Disease after taking ED injections under the guidance of Dr. MUlhall, I made the decision to go against his medical advice and stop injecting my penis twice a week.  I simply explained to my doctor that I was hopeful that trazodone would give me the erections I needed for nerve healing without the injections.  I specified I only needed 25 mg. per night.  As a persuasion, I threw in that I had been a bit depressed at times.  He quickly told me it was almost certain that such a small dose would never impact any level of depression.  After listening, he wrote the prescription and said he wanted to hear from me in a couple weeks to know if it was working.  I have now had the prescription renewed for another 3 months without question.

It is interesting when a knowledgeable nurse asks for your med list and you say 1/2 of a 50mg trazodone only at bedtime.  Knowing the usual dosage they ask what that is for.  When I look them dead in the eye and say "night-time erections, it works great" they look more puzzled.  It is a major source of concern to me that well known specialists will not use this drug for what it works so well at doing.  Instead they recommend all day drives to see them, hundreds of dollars in office visits, expensive refrigerated compounded drugs, and penile injections 2 or 3 times a week for erections to keep your penis healthy.  All it takes is 3 cents worth of trazodone from a General Practioner.  I think it makes a penis much healthier than sticking needles in it for months.  Hopefully when some uros read this forum they will consider the simple solution..

They also fail to tell you that sudafed will totally cancel out Viagra's erection properties.

[ComeBacKid]

Zig,

I to had the same question for Hawk or anyone... is it ok to take L Arginine, ALC, vitamin E, and trazodone at the dosage of 1/2 of a 50mg before bed.  Sounds like Hawk is on the same pill formula I am.  I don't really see how it could be dangerous, vitamin E is just like getting your daily dose of vitamin E from foods. ALC says it promotes memory, and the L Arginine deals with the NO.  I think for now I"m going to stick with this regimen, I've been on the ALC for over 3 months now and when I run out of the bottle soon I'm going to stop it anyway, along with the vitamin E.  This question you pose is a good one and I suppose if Tim could chime in that'd be great... but I think hes on vacation for the week!  

[Hawk]

My name is Bob Miller, a traditional Naturopath in PA. ... spent quite a bit of time reading, and am impressed with your persistence and knowledge and willingness to help.

I want to research this so I can help him with this.

I am well connected in the natural health field and I have placed some inquiries with experts in various fields.

I am researching:

-Enzymes, by discussions with a medical grade enzyme producer,
-Herbal approaches (particularly gota kola and ginko) with one of the best   herbalists in the world, and
-I am looking at if there is a possible calcium utilization problem.

If there is interest on this forum, I'd be glad to post what I hear from the experts.

By the way, I'm curious if any of you with Peyronies have had gall stones, kidney stones or bone spurs (like heel spurs)

Bob, welcome and thanks for your interest.  Due to the many conflicting opinions, people relying on weak anecdotal evidence, and even many snake oil salesmen, we try to encourage objective rational thought and scientific analysis by our members,  as found at http://www.peyroniessociety.org/evaluating.htm

Since many guests and some members read quickly and are not informed, they are apt to "assume" when they see a title after a name.  Can you explain some details such as your length of training, the school you attended or online institution, and your experience or training with Peyronies Disease.  Do the experts you consult have any blinded, clinical studies to support their assertions?  Have they ever successfully resolved Peyronies Disease in a patient or client (whichever term is proper)?  Exactly what are the services and limits of a nuropath.

Thanks again, we appreciate your input.

[Liam]

...if clinically successful in future randomized, double-blind clinical trials,
one may speculate that upregulators of NO may be useful in the management of other conditions characterized by fibrosis

This is the third report I've seen on combining l-arginine, pentoxifylline and sildenafil with a positive outcome.  It looks like an interest has been sparked in the research community.  I would be willing to bet there will be quite a few studies, larger, valid and reliable, already underway.  Other conditions mentioned above means Peyronies Disease.

This may finally be a treatment that is efficacious.

Am I over reacting?  Or, is this kind of exciting?

[rem1954]

Hi Hawk & Group:

Good questions and glad to answer them.

Classical Naturopaths are not medical doctors and do not diagnose or prescribe. I have "clients" who I consult with to find supplement programs that meets their nutritional needs.

I have a private practice, "Tree of Life Health Ministries", where my full time job is consulting with clients. I became interested in Peyronies when one of the forum members came to me for a consult. I'm not employed by any supplement company and I don't have the latest "miracle" that some MLM companies think they have.

I earned a Naturopathic degree from Trinity College of Natural Health in 1998. (some classes and much home study). I was board certified in 2001 by the ANMA (American Naturopathic Medical Association)

I work under the premise of classical naturopathy that the root cause of many problems is inflammation at a cellular level caused by lack of nutrients, a pH imbalance or toxicity at the cellular level. This goes way back to the controversy between Lois Pasteur (germ theory) and Bechamp (terrain or environment). Classical naturopaths believe it is the condition of the terrain ( the liquid of fluid the cells live in) that largely determines how healthy the cells will be.

In my office, I take a urine and saliva sample from every client and access how they are utilizing nutrients, the pH and how they are eliminating waste and acids. Based upon these numbers and current healh and health goals, I formulate a nutritional program for them. Typically, I take 1.5-2 hours to do this. Clients sign a waiver that I am not diagnosing or treating.

The reason I took an interest in Peyronies, is that from what I have learned so far, is that there is an inflammatory process gone awry somewhere, right down classical naturopathy's alley. I have no idea what went wrong or how to fix it, hence my comment that I am in the research mode.

I am fortunate that I have access to many of the top herbalists in the world and access to some top researches in enzymes. To me, it would be icing on the cake if some of them had success with Peyronies, but for now, I want to investigate the inflammation process that led to the scarring and learn which natural products they know of that have clinical evidence in dealing with the underlying issues.

As I said, I suspect an inflammatory process gone awry. I would suspect this occurs in other situations in addition to peyronies, but doens't have a debiliting effect. Some top natual health people who I have already e-mailed, may give some valuable data.

From a classical naturopathic viewpoint, we would look for what is the potential nutritional deficieny or toxicity issue. The forum member who is seeing me, there is a toxicity issue ( not effectively removing wastes). However, that's one person and may not be related to the problem at all. I am not suggesting it is.

Here's what I am currently thinking:

My best guess is that if  there is a solution form a natural health standpoint, it probably has to be multi-factored. First, something that can help dissolve the existing scar tissie. Hence, I have e-mailed some of the most knowlegable people with enzymes. In my practicve I have access to enzymes only sold by health practitioners, not the lower grades in health food stores. In addition, on Sept 28 & 29, I will be attending a world-wide conference on enzymes in Houston and will be rubbing elbows with people who know a heck of a lot more than me. There's quite a bit of research now going on with enzymes and tumors. I will do my best to pick a few brains. From what I hear, some Nobel winners will be there.

Next, I would think there needs to be some nutritional support for a healing of the tissue to begin. For that, I have e-mailed Dr. Angela Haywood, a very well known Naturopath in Australia, who has connections with a brilliant herbalist, Kerry Bone. I am particularly curious about a combination of Ginko and Gotu Kola (professional strength) to faciliate the healing and promote micro circulation.

Finally, from a basic nutrition standpoint, I'd like to investigate if there may be some targeted nutrients to further support scar tissue removal and regeneration. For that, I have contaced the home office of Standard Process Labs, a well respected nutritional company since the 1920's.

So that's about it....looking for some answers and trying to solve a mystery. Personally, I love a challenge.

By the way, this isn't unusual for me....I often do independent research for clients. If I find something that is helpful great....and if not...well... I gave it a shot.

- Bob

[Hawk]

I very much like the results from L-Arginine but after about a week at 4grams (4000mg) per day it started hurting my stomach very soon after each dose taken after eating.  I was taking capsules from GNC.  I tried dumping them into water and stirring them up.  This helped a little.  When they were gone I started on my 1000mg bottle and was surprised that instead of capsules, they are tablets.  I have been taking the GNC tablets now for a week and I have absolutely no problem from them.

I wonder if they dissolve more slowly rather than dissolving and dumping a dose of powder in a concentrated spot or what the difference is.  Al I know is that the tablets cause me less problem.  I generally have an iron  gut.  

[rem1954]

Hawk said:
"I very much like the results from L-Arginine but after about a week at 4grams (4000mg) per day it started hurting my stomach very soon after each dose taken after eating.  "

Hawk:

Some people have difficulty digesting proteins in general, and L-arginine is a building block (amino acid) of proteins. I find it quite interesting that it causes you problems. Here's why.

I have had some clients who need to take Ribonucleic Acid (RNA) with L-Arganine so they can utilize/synthesize it.

I just grabbed a book (Clinical Reference Guide); looked up RNA and it says this:

"Ribonucleic Acid is usually called RNA. It is a yeast extract. This is involved in cell multiplication and development. RNA helps build cells by supporting protein synthesis......It's also useful for promoting healing. For example, to assist in the nutritional removal of scar tissue, keyloids, etc. This is a product with many uses, all relating in one way or another to the formation of new tissues."

Hmmmmm...

Are you or anyone else on the forum aware of any theories that inability to properly synthesize protein could be a factor in Peyronies??

I'll do a bit more checking into this. I want to find out if RNA is provided by foods or created in the body. This could be a dead-end and go no where...or could be a helpful clue as to what's going on. I believe there is an MD on the forum....perhaps he could comment as well if this has merit investigating.

- Bob

[Hawk]

Bob,

I do find that interesting but I have no other obvious indications of problems assimilating amino acids.  I take 21 grams of whey protein a day with an amino acid profile that includes 500mg of L-Arginine.  I eat other high protein foods like tuna, and salmon with no noticed negative effects.

[Rico]

Dear Forum members,

I was just told that one should take ornithine along with arginine, does anyone have any comments on this? Thank you.

Rico

[Tim468]

Just checking in.. I am still on vacation and working on a slow modem dial-up connection, More importantly, I am still on vacation, and my mind is a bit slow!

RNA is a natural compnent of DNA replication. RNA is a messenger that takes the DNA code and makes the proteins. Although it is foundin yeast extracts, it is a large part of how we function (all mammalian systmes use RNA to synthesize proteins). I know of no reason tho think that oral RNA extract would do anything other than break down in the stomach and provide some elemental nutrients to us.

A naturopathic approach is welcome here, IMHO, Bob. However, just be aware that we have all dealt with MANY theoretical approaches that did not work out. Moreover, you may likely find here more clues than your "experts" will provide you. Here we have all scoured the literature to find anything that might help. An example might be the use of the Chinese Traditional Medicine skullcap which has wogonin in it, which has been shown to help Peyronies Disease in the laboratory cell culter experiments. So it goes here - we look for answers and we are open to much that is new. But we are all learning that if we are going to help ourselves, we must stretch out to new areas, but always to keep sight on WHAT WORKS.

So sure, I just bought another bottle of Emu Oil, and I take enough supplements to keep a small grocer alive and kicking finacially for a year. But we are mostly interested in finding either something that addresses the basic mechanisms, or that has been shown to work in a double blinded study.

Tim

[RoyRogers]

As far as treatment goes...

I'm not looking as far as surgery...

but I'm taking the next 35 days and doing everything proper...

my diet is perfect (speaking of which, anyone looking for a world class diet i will send a copy of mine to them)... i weight train 3 times a week, and kickbox 3 times a week... I've spoken to the top trainers and have a perfect training regimen.

No booze... Nothing that constricts blood flow

I supplement with a decent multi-vitamin, and I take 400IU's of vitamin E twice daily...

But is there anything else anyone can recommend? I know this isnt the proper section for it, but the other ones are convoluted. Any other supplements? herbs? whatever's clever...

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Rico]

Roy Rogers,

I'm glad you are on this program. I one thing I think you should take is arginine, I would go to gnc or somewhere and buy a mix, with arginine in it. I use the one that a lot of the fighters on the UFC use, but if you go on the site on gnc and look under labels on the products you can pick and choose. You will see that some of the post on here, these guys have done some research also and have good suggestions on arginine, Like I said, I like the blend with all arginine and some that help promote the effect, much research has went into these mixes to promote healing, muscles are damaged when put through these workouts and they promote they to recover quick.
I'm 52 and started my martial arts as a wrestler in 1969, then while in the Navy over seas started kick boxing, now I mainly do jiu-jitsu and box, the thing I learn the most the hard way is not to over train, this throws you body into a stress situation.
I believe peyronies throws you into a stress state of mind, especially the first several months, It freaked me out. Sleep is one of the most important part of a workout, being well rested to recover. You should be sleeping a good ten hours aday if you are working out, one nap and eight hours.
The first thing they teach people who become very ill(cancer ect), is they need to think about self care, you have to take for yourself, sleep, take a nap, get some sun, nature is a huge factor in feeling whole again, go a park ect....When I first got this, I bang the heavy bag, stayed up late, couldn't sleep ect...wasn't eating right and now that I have been eating better, sleeping in, doing SELF CARE, not over training, just enough to keep the blow flow going and a diet mainly of fruits and veggies, all raw and good proteins, I feel so much better and my little guy looks better and erections are much stronger, I take epsom salt baths, boxers used them for years, you might not have access to a bath tub, I think you said you live in a dorm, but maybe the gym has a whirl pool. Xyience and Trac are two of the supplements I like, but you can like I said get arginine and some of the other supplements on these labels cheap other places. Take care...a young man like yourself, and a martial artist will be fine in my opinion because of your strong mind and will that the art brings to oneself....I will say a pray for you tonight...Keep Kicking:)..

Rico....remember...sleep!!!!!!!!

[Liam]

but I'm taking the next 35 days and doing everything proper

Roy,

I hope this includes getting a diagnosis.  If you stubbed your toe or have a cold, OK, you don't really need a diagnosis.  But, we are talking about your penis.  

I don't mean to come down on you.  I have just seen several younger men here who have not gone to the urologist.  I can't imagine.  This is one of the important body parts.  Please, guys, get it checked out first.      You'll have plenty of time to figure out treatment later.

Good Luck,

Liam

[ComeBacKid]

Bob,

Are you saying that one must have RNA with L Arginine to utilize it?  I've never heard anyone promote this idea yet, how could one tell if they are not utilizing the L arginine?

ComeBackid

[Liam]

Rico found that l-ornithine is a precursor to l-arginine.  After just a quick review of research I found l-ornithine to be a precursor of l-arginine.  That alone is reason to take it.  L-citrulline is also considered to be one of the best supplements to promote l-arginine production.

More investigation is needed as to the benefit that can be derived by men with Peyronies Disease.  But, IMO, this is a good insight.  WTG Rico

BTW, while you're soaking in the Epsom salt, try a little red wine.  Very relaxing and a great antioxidant.  I have herniated cervical disc and the muscles in my neck get so tense.  This really helps.
I couldn't find an icon for that  .

Bob,

Wouldn't you need human RNA to affect human cellular activity?  I also wondered how it can survive the digestive system.

[Rico]

I was just on line at gnc, Zig was asking about my supplement I take, the one I been taking is also if you are working out and does have some creatine in it. It gives you a good pump, blood flow, that is why they call it nox.

I went into gnc site and just started looking at labels, searching under arginine ect....nxcare vaso has all arginine, acl, ornithine, citrulline....arginine complex alone is 3000mg. a good dose...240 tablets in a bottle, they suggest 3 per day....if you get a gold card, which is free they will discount your purchase on the first tuesday of the month, I'm going there today.

That product looks like a buck a day if you were to double up.

I do believe one should cycle any of these products to get the best effect....30 days on take a week off.....40 days on  then 10 days off.....and I always believe natural is best if you can....

I google foods with arginine ect.....Most of the foods I have been eating from the five best nuts and 12 fruits and veggies and lean meats and grains I know work, muesil is the best ceral one can eat, has silicea in it plus many more wound healing nutrients, this was developed by a Swiss nutritionist years ago, I just started  it, a natural doctor suggested I take silicea, but instead of popping more pills I look up muesil and found it had this in it, now I start the day with a great breakfast. Remember brothers it isn't what you eat, it is what you assimilate, eat lots of fresh raw fruit and veggies with fiber and plenty of water for a week, so when you are taking supplements they get into your system. I buy the powder from because I do believe they get into my system better, but you will get delivery with the pills.

Liam thanks for the wine tip, I always have a good bottle of Merlot around. I will say that since my baths, now I don't know if it because I rest better, sleep is so important in healing, but my little guy looks much better when flaccid, it the beginning(first two-three months, now going into fourth), I was svireal up and dorsal vein was large on top, I have been taking baths now for two weeks, five per week, and eating 90% of time very healthy and it hangs better and looks healthy, no vein sticking out, almost back to what it look like before, when I shake it though after going to bathroom, it will still hinge to the side or something weird, and the slight curve and hour glass is still there with hinge when erect, but it hasn't progress at all, it was like my skin color and everything looks better down there. Could it be diet, epsom salt baths, I think it has help, Maybe I help stopped the inflammation, I know I'm buying more of them and I'm going to  buy some more arginine mix, I just came off a week off  for my cycle, so this time I'm going to go for 40days along with my diet and exercise program and hope to get my ved soon.....take care brothers, sorry for such a long note....I told someone on here that when I write these I'm not trying to preach, I'm talking to myself sometimes, I know what to do, it is always easier said than done...I brought my lunch today, apples, hard pears and two lemons squeezed into my water bottle, bag of nuts and salad with salmon, I'm going to go to the park by work and watch the girls walk by and feed the ducks, they have a water fall, nature is such a great healer, take care....

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

I went into gnc site and just started looking at labels, searching under arginine ect....nxcare vaso has all arginine, acl, ornithine, citrulline....arginine complex alone is 3000mg. a good dose...240 tablets in a bottle, they suggest 3 per day....if you get a gold card, which is free they will discount your purchase on the first tuesday of the month, I'm going there today.

That product looks like a buck a day if you were to double up.

Rico,  wow one pill that has all those treatments we've been talking about.  Did you do a price comparison for to say if someone bought a bottle of those pills individually and compared that total price to the all in one nxcare vaso price?  I wonder how much $ your acutally saving.  I may check that out if I can get into a GNC store sometime soon.

ComeBackid

[Hawk]

Nationwide, GNC's actually charges $15.00 for a Gold Card and they offer the 20% discount for the first 7 days of every month plus on the day you first buy the card.

My Opinion:  I think the concept of stopping a suplement for a period of time then restarting it is an oldwives tale and that it has no documented benefit.  No supplement, and few if any medications from a doctor, are ever prescribed like that.  I don't think there is any logic in discontinuing a food substance they restarting it.  If it works, it works.  You body does not build up an immunity to a nutrient.

If anyone knows of any clinical studies or other documented evidence indicating I am wrong, please post and inform me.

[Rico]

Hawk,

I should of said the ones I'm taking(because they have creatine in them), sorry about that.

I guess when I signed on the gnc, they told me I could save x amount of dollars that day when I bought, they backed out the fee, It was along time ago. I'm not trying to promote gnc, I believe in reading the labels and looking for what you want, and then the delivery system(pills,powder ect), and choose what you prefer, I do know you should cycle creatine supplements.

Thanks Hawk, this is why I'm on this forum, some great experience and advise here, Getty said, "I would rather have 1% of 100 people vs 100% of my own time....

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico,

I think your posts are all sincere.  I may not have to explain this, but every now and then I think it is good if I do explain.  My post was nothing more than one member's opinion and understanding.  GNC is a highly rated store by Consumer Reports.  I shop there among other places.  My opinions don't represent an "Official PDS position" because we don't have one.  The PDS supports the pursuit and dissemination of knowledge and ideas.

Like you, I just like to investigate claims, root out facts, and express my personal opinions as a member.

[Rico]

Hawk,

I know you are a good guy:) and your post are meant to protect and serve on this forum, and your hard work is appreciated by all. You are a walking Angel

I did search for cycling on arginine, found one site www.primev.com/arginine.htm  I have to learn how to cut and paste:)  they suggested to cycle, two months on and off.

I know with creatine it is to give the kidneys a rest, you do retain water.

Arginine is produced in the liver, read meat, nuts and eggs have arginine, but because of our diet, most people are lacking and as we age, we don't function as well in the organ department sometimes. This is why we supplement. I think it is more of thought to give the large organs sometime off so to speak.

I know I'm not a medical person, I go with my gut  and trial and error over the years of experience for what has worked for me with injuries ect....

More is not always better and can put a taxing factor on someones organs if there not careful, the liver is a amazing organ and can snap back in a short time from abuse. I know I can do amazing things in 30 days, then rest and start again, the more one can take in the nutrients and amino acids naturally the better for you, not only are you getting them, but you are getting the fiber and energy they supply.

As Shakespear said, "To Cycle or Not to Cycle, That is the Question"

Rico