ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[howcanthisbe]

Vit. E worsened my condition I think, I stopped 30 hours ago and already a slight improvment in the dent, or so it seems...... it could just be a good day.

[Tim468]

I do not think that the "natural history" of Peyronies Disease is compatible with what you are going through. A dent sures sounds like Peyronies Disease to me, but I do not see such a problem coming and going within 30 hours of stopping a fairly innocuous vitamin like E. It is more likely related to the firmness of the erection (some such dents stretch out under tension and "disappear"), and that could be related to a lot of things (ie relief over stopping vitamin E!).

Again, you need to stop speculating and see a doctor.

[howcanthisbe]

but can a normal penis have dents in it sometimes? Or does it have to be Peyronies Disease? Sorry im trying to see a URO and I dont expect anyone to diagnose my condition online. It seems everywhere I read that a dent is related to Peyronies Disease for sure, yet I know there are pretty normal penises out there probably that get a slight indention in a area from time to time, or is that not possible?  

[Hawk]

HowCanThisBe,

I am not a medical person or an expert on Peyronies Disease. I have however owned a penis for 56 years and i have paid pretty close attention to it.  Other than Peyronies Disease, and normal growth during adolescence, my penis exhibited no changes over the 35 years in between.  I am very puzzled by your changing descriptions except to say I am convinced that Tim is correct.  A variation in the degree of erection makes a significant difference in how clearly a deformity is revealed.  At 60% erection, I display no trace of Peyronies Disease.  At full erection I have a very significant "dent" under one side of the base and a slight righthand curve about 2/3rd of the way to the end.

I am sure the variations you are seeing are variations in degree of erection.  Changes in penile structures cannot possibly be changing that rapidly, especially vacillating from worse to better and back again.

Also, Vitamin E is a nutrient, not a drug or foreign substance.  I cannot imagine it having any impact much less a dramatic,  immediate impact.

[Kimo]

I have a question for anyone who can respond...I have been real sick now for almost 9 months with stomach problems and am in a lot of pain..I still believe that i have a parasite but now need a Cscan this week to make sure...My question is,,,my URO just prescribed Potaba, about 18 pills a day...Can anyone who has taken it tell if it gives you much pain in the stomach?  I'm afraid to start taking it as i am in so much pain already...My most recent case of peyronies is located on top of my penis but recessed back in my body behind my pubic hair and so he wanted me to take potaba as nothing else would be able to reach it.....I'm not in a lot of pain except when erect and i try to ingnore it while having sex with my wife.....I have a good size nodule of plaque....

If anyone would like to reply here or on my private e-mail i would apprecieate it very much.....Thabnks so much for your time and help....kimo

[ComeBacKid]

Kimo,

Almost everyone I've talked to who took that potaba said they got really sick quite often.  I think that is one of the side effects of it.  I don't think there are any real studies showing it works.  My urologist offered it to me back when I was like 19 and I rejected it.

ComeBackid

[SteveW]

Not according to my doc, who "wouldn't recommend" it.  You have to do a "cost-return" analysis and then decide for yourself.  Personally, the cost is too high based on the projected return on investment.  But then again, I really don't like being nauseous 24 hrs a day and barfing every few hours.  Your results may vary.

And this from a guy with a medievil traction device attached to his penis at this very moment.

[Liam]

Took Potaba for two weeks.  Had to stop because of stomach upset.

[zigwyth]

I didn't take Potaba because the Urologist told me he didn't think it really helped and said I would probably have severe stomach issues. Also, just FYI, I had to go in for some stomach issues and took me 5 different docs before they found the problem(s) Look up Celiac disease if you still have problems after going off the Potaba if that's what you decide. My 2 cents worth. Zig The Twig

[Old Man]

Kimo:

Potabo did not affect my stomach in any way, but I was told that it must be made of cast iron. During the early stages of my most recent bout with Peyronies Disease, I took 13,000 of the pesky pills before it was realized that it did nothing me or the Peyronies Disease.

So, apparently some have resistance to it and others don't. I tend to think that most will have a stomach problem with it.

Old Man

[Angus]

I was prescribed Potaba for Peyronies Disease back in the early 90's and consumed pounds of the stuff. Results: upset stomach 24/7 and no effect on Peyronies Disease whatsoever.

[howcanthisbe]

Hawk, thanks for the reply. Ok well I do realize what your saying. I just noticed in that period that I got alot worse rapidly. It might have been a one day thing or something, but that was a week ago and I havent looked near as bad since I took E even at full erection. Im saying, could I have a slight dent and I be normal? I mean by slight that its not noticable by sight almost, just barely. You can barely feel it also. Like couldnt a dent come and go? I have had Peyronies Disease if I have it for 4 years now, for all those years it has been pretty much stable. I just dont wanna take E if I noticed a diffrence when im fine right now and can still have sex fine. So im saying, if I start denting up more and all I will have to get treatment, but right now a girl couldnt even notice that I have a problem, the only thing that I notice is a slight bend up and small dent on side plus my head doesnt get as full as it did before 4 years ago. Besides that im stable right now I think, but I got to wait and see what happens. So couldnt I just get a slight case of Peyronies Disease and not get much worse? Sorry im trying to be postive thinking here, I just have read some stories of guys with slight Peyronies Disease and it doesnt really effect thier sex life. Thanks

[howcanthisbe]

so cant one get Peyronies Disease and still have a fairly normal sex life? I mean arnt there people out there walking around with Peyronies Disease that dont even know they have it? Or will I eventually be really bad or what? Thanks

[Liam]

YES

YES

OR WHAT

[Kimo]

Thanks guys for all the input,,,it's will help me to avoid more problems which i don't need....I wished i would have ask sooner before i paid for the stuff..Oh well, another lesson learned...I have been schedualed for a Cscan this fri. so hopefully they will find out whats wrong with me..They are going to do the nuclear stuff on me through my stomach and in my veins...I will let you all know what happens.......kimo

[Liam]

Kimo

Just went through that test last year.  Did a stomach emptying and gall bladder function test (that was the winner).   Good luck!  Hope you have cute techs.  That always makes a test easier.

[Liam]

Here is confirmation of what we already knew.  Sorry if this is a repost.  I've started including 2006 in all my searches.  We've read so many papers it's hard to keep them straight.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1442-2042.2006.01270.x

[Ball1n4Life11]

I have had Peyronies Disease for about 6-8 months and its in the initial inflammatory phase.  There is a small amount of plaque and slight curvature but not enough to really care about.  What I do care about is the pain.  It way pretty bad and Ive been to PCF and Uro several times since it all started.  I have taken several different types of anti-inflammatories (Naproxen, Mobic), antibiotics(At first they thought it could be prostatitis), pain meds, vitamin E, Bromelain, GLA, Vitamin C, ALC, and I even ordered VIP cream from that IMO shady website actionlove.  None worked.  If anything helped it was GLA w/ ALC but not enough to mean a whole lot.  But my Uro recently prescribed Potaba for me since I am in the initial phase and it has worked.  I have been taking 1 gram every 8 hours for the past two weeks.  The swelling is down most of the time and when it flares up it only lasts a few minutes and the pain is almost all the way gone.  The plaque has reduced in size some and I cant really notice a change in the curve but like I said before it wasnt that significant to begin with.

For all of you who has said it gave you an upset stomach... My doc warned me of that and he said to take it after a meal and to open the capsules and mixed it with a tall glass of water.  I have been doing that and my stomach hasnt been upset at all.

So hopefully this is good news for all of you guys....It is for me!  I would tell anyone in the initial stage to definitely at least try potaba for 6 weeks or so if you stomach will allow you.  And even if you aren't in the initial stage if you are willing to try stuff and have the cash b/c Potaba is kinda expensive.  For those of you who had an upset stomach maybe you can try the way I have been taking it and it might help idk......but this is the first thing that has worked for me and believe me its exciting!

Also as a warning PABA and Potaba aren't the same!  I believe you have to take alot of PABA to equal the effects of Potaba....Someone correct me if I'm wrong though....  I also think potency, quality may be an issue with PABA but I am not sure.


Hope this helps!

[cortong]

Just thought I would report that I persuaded my Uro to put me on a course of Pentox after I emailed him Dr Lu's study. I have been taking it 3 wks and  the tenderness in the lump seemed to go overnight and the bend seems to have decreased by about 15 degrees. I will report back any other developments.  

[Barry]

Awesome, any good news is well received, I'm glad for you. And please keep us informed of any other developements.

Regards,
Barry

[Liam]

This is a 2003 study that pointed to the use of Pentox and l-arginine.  It is worth a re-read because of Dr. Lue's case study.  The point that was of interest to me is it appears either pentox or sildenafil was used with positive results.

Both sildenafil and pentoxiphylline stimulated fibroblast apoptosis within the TA.

As most of us know apoptsis is cell death

I'm thinking, I can't get Pentox, but, I can get Viagra (sildenafil).  Here is the link to the abstract.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14996430&dopt=Abstract

[Hawk]

Liam,

Have you tried to get pentox?

[Liam]

My uro said it is an off label use.  He is not interested in prescribing it.  

[Hawk]

Liam,

If I recall, this is the same doc that has little time for your Peyronies Disease discussions.  I say shop around.  first ask your family doctor.  If he says no, find a uro that will.  I think that is my next move.  My family doctor was pretty agreeable to prescribing trazodone for night-time erections.  I will try him on Pentox.  If he won't go for it, I will try to find a uro that will write the prescription.

[Liam]

My family doc is great.  He actually found my PC.  He may do it.  I have been threatening to call Dr. Hellstrom at Tulane.  I asked about daily Viagra.  He didn't like that idea, either.  He did write a prescription for 100 mg Viagra with 12 refills.  I bought a pill cutter.

[Hawk]

Liam,

If your uro does not like daily Viagra after a prostatectomy I think he is uninformed and behind the times.  We have 5 local urologist (one group) in my town.  All of them, Mulhall, my NY surgeon, ALL recommended daily Viagra.

Even my GP asked if they had recommended it since he had heard it was becoming very accepted to do so.

[Fighter]

This sounds interesting! Do you take 2.25g of L-Arginine and 10mg of Sildenafil? I was wondering what does the L-Arginine do? Has anybody tried this with any success? Also do you think that STAMINA-RX would be the same as taken Sildenafil? Supposedly it has sildenafil in it?? Check it out on GNC website under mens health. It dose not list it as an ingredient but I was told that YOHIMBE has sildenafil in it and it has YOHIMBE in it. Can anybody help me out here?

This is a 2003 study that pointed to the use of Pentox and l-arginine.  It is worth a re-read because of Dr. Lue's case study.  The point that was of interest to me is it appears either pentox or sildenafil was used with positive results.

Both sildenafil and pentoxiphylline stimulated fibroblast apoptosis within the TA.

As most of us know apoptsis is cell death

I'm thinking, I can't get Pentox, but, I can get Viagra (sildenafil).  Here is the link to the abstract.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14996430&dopt=Abstract

[Liam]

I copied this fro m the FDA website.  Notice the date (2003).  Rest assured it no longer has this ingrediant.

FDA Talk Paper
T03-48
June 20, 2003
Media Inquiries: 301-827-6242
Consumer Inquiries: 888-INFO-FDA



FDA Public Health Advisory:
FDA Warns Consumers Against Taking the Following Dietary Supplements-SIGRA, STAMINA Rx and STAMINA Rx for Women, Y-Y, Spontane ES and Uroprin
Today, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is warning consumers not to purchase or consume the following products: SIGRA, STAMINA Rx and STAMINA Rx for Women, Y-Y, Spontane ES and Uroprin, manufactured by NVE, Inc., in Newton, N.J. and distributed by Hi-Tech in Norcross, Ga. These products, which are being marketed as dietary supplements, actually contain a prescription drug ingredient that poses possible health risks. The products are being sold over-the-counter and are claiming to increase stamina, confidence and performance.

FDA has determined that the products actually contain the prescription-strength drug ingredient, tadalafil. Tadalafil is the active ingredient in Cialis, an Eli Lilly product approved in Europe to treat male erectile dysfunction. An interaction between certain prescription drugs containing nitrates (such as nitroglycerin) and tadalafil may cause a drastic lowering of blood pressure. There is real danger that this product may be taken by patients taking nitrates since erectile dysfunction is often a common problem in people with diabetes, hypertension (high blood pressure), hyperlipidemia (high cholesterol), ischemic heart disease and in people who smoke.

FDA's Office of Criminal Investigations, with assistance from FDA's New Jersey and Atlanta Districts, executed concurrent federal search warrants in Georgia and New Jersey after finding these dietary supplements.

Consumers who have used these products and have medical concerns should consult with their health care providers.

All consumers should be aware of the risks associated with these products. [/b]

[Tim468]

This FDA warning reminds us of why we benefit from having regulations in our society. It chaps me to see a "natural" solution promoted for erectile dysfunction when all they are doing is inserting cheap and covert drugs to make it work. It promotes the fallacy that a certain natural ingredient helps erections, while simply bypassing all safety and health concerns (I am not saying that all natural cures are bunk).

Incredible...

[Old Man]

Tim:

You are right about natural herbs, drugs and related substances that can help with ED. Several indian tribes in South American, according to visitors there, have been using these substances for decades and perhaps centuried to "cure" or add to their libido.

I personally know from my childhood experiences growing up when modern medicine was in its infant stages that we used "home remedies" to great success. These often included so called "patent medicines" which were simply just preparations from herbs and/or other natural products.

Many thanks for your constant contributions as a doctor to this forum. Wish that I could my current uro to begin participating here. She has been thinking about it, but has a family situation where they are dealing with cancer in one of their children. Perhaps when this problem is resolved, she will be able to join us here. She has considerable experience with Peyronies Disease, ED and other related men's health problems.

Again, thanks for your participation here.

Regards, Old Man

[Hawk]

This may be a good time for reposting this link

Here is one very objective information site on herbs.  They have no monetary interest in sales and are very research oriented.  They include any known clinical studies, and I detect no pro or con bias.

http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/11571.cfm?RecordID=548&tab=HC

This link takes you directly to the Yohimbe section of the site, but you can search any herb once there.

[zigwyth]

So guys, am I to understand that you have to have a prescription to get Pentox? I could have sworn that you could bye it from Canada without a prescription? Can you guys guide me on a link to gain more knowledge about this drug.? I don't want to waste time with searching through thousands of scams, etc.Also, is there a survey or poll anywhere some guys with Peyronies Disease that Have taken this w/ results?
Thanks
Zig

[Liam]

Zig, I tried to find a link to the brand Trental.  Couldn't readily find one so this has the pertinant info.

http://www.answers.com/topic/pentoxifylline

[wantitstr8]

Just to let you guys know, I've been on Pentox and Arginine for about 5 weeks and I am seeing definite signs of improvement.  Curvature has been reduced by about 20 degrees and erection quality is as good as it was prior to the onset of Peyronies Disease.  I am also using traction and taking Neprinol and Vitamin E.  I have also had 5 Verapamil injections...but am seriously thinking about stopping those at my next visit.  Not sure Pentox is a miracle drug but I really think it is helping.  I also think traction seems to be helping.  I have found some lost size (I think from traction).  I'll keep everyone informed on progress, not sure this is a miracle "cure" but something seems to be getting this under control...from a timing perspective, I can correlate the improvement to beginning Pentox, Arginine, and traction.  I may just be seeing the natural progression of my particular affliction, however, I'll take the coincidence...

[ComeBacKid]

Did anyone hear about this new form of carnitine, I read about it on the old forum.

Propionyl l carnitine

The claim is that it has better efficacy?

ComeBackid

[Fighter]

Found this on the web check it out... (Propionyl L Caritine)


http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/print.aspx?token=af362d97-4f80-4453-a175-02cc6220a387&chunkiid=35551  

[Fighter]

Hey ComeBackid... how are you doing with Acetyl-L-Caritine? Are you still taken it? Is it still helping? How much are you taken? Could give an update!

[Tim468]

There have been several studies out of Italy by Cavallini that have looked at PLC and or ALC. One study looked at the efects of both carnitines in combination, compared to varicocoelectomy in the treatment of oligospermic infertility. It found that sperm counts increased over time with the drugs (they also used a NSAID that is not easily found in the states), and that the results wre comparable to those of surgery on the varicocoele (a dilated vein draining the testes - when that happens it affects sperm count).

I found the study interesting for several reasons. First, I have a Varicocoele, and my fertility has gradually waned over the past 20 years (pregnancies in my twenties but none after 35). I have also seen a gradual loss of size in my testes. It turns out that an untreated varicocoele can lead to gradual changes in testicular health, such that not only does sperm production decline, but that also testicular production of testosterone declines (faster than usual). Both seem to have happened to me (and could have been prevented by having been properly treated when I was diagnosed at 33!!!).

What caught my eye is the role of inflammation (a common denominator with Peyronies Disease) and how the researchers chose the forms of carnitine, and NSAIDs. They referred to data I have not found or read yet suggesting that other studies had suggested a combination would be better than just ALC. Yet the data are elusive.

Being of an easily triggered investigative mind, I was willing to see if simply taking a PLC / ALC combination helped, but could not find any reliable or affordable source of it here. Similarly, the NSAID they used in the infertility study (and of course, the relative value of a drug for one condition may not apply to another condition) is not found here. It is "Cinnoxicam" which should be a metabolite of piroxicam, which goes under the trade name of Feldene. Given that Feldene has a higher number of serious side effects, it has not gained wide acceptance or use compared to ibuprofen (Advil). It is approved for the use in rheumatoid arthritis, I think, and has a niche carved out there. Since it had a sobering toxicity profile, I decided to stick with advil for an NSAID.

Reading these data is hard, since sometimes they refer to PLC, and other times to it as just "L-carnitine". It left me not sure of what they had used, or why. One can also read Cavallini's article on this in our archives:

https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,286.0.html

Tim

[zigwyth]

Thanks Liam for the link. Wantitstr8, any side effects in particular? I have insomnia and don't want to make it worse by taking Pentox at night. It also can cause drowsiness. Can't be drowsy working on equipment. Your thoughts on this?
Zig The Twig

[Liam]

JAMA -- Arginine Metabolism, Pulmonary Hypertension, and Sickle ...Ingested L-citrulline is much more effective than L-arginine in raising plasma arginine levels for arginine-derived NO production.2, 5 Furthermore, ...

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/102/38/13681  -L-citrulline and L-arginine supplementation retards the progression of high-cholesterol-diet-induced atherosclerosis in rabbits

L-citrulline may be more beneficial than l-arginine if I am making the right inference from these sources.

I'm taking both.  

[soxfan]

HI All,

I am interested in using pentox but my doc just won't prescribe it for me. Does anyone know of any reputable internet vendor that sells the stuff?

Cheers.

[Hawk]

My sincere question:  Is there any such thing as a reputable internet vendor of prescription drugs and how legal is it?

[Liam]

Soxfan,

I am in the same boat.  I think a reputable vendor would not sell it without a prescription.  I am going to Dr. shop.

Good Luck and let us know if you get it.

[soxfan]

My sincere question:  Is there any such thing as a reputable internet vendor of prescription drugs and how legal is it?

Hawk,

Yes there are legit over seas internet vendors that sell certain goodies and anti-aging supps without an rx and I have used them in the past. Sadly, I haven't found any that carry trental/pentox, but I will keep looking.

Cheers.

[wantitstr8]

I haven't noticed any side effects from the Pentox other than the often cited upset stomach if not taken with food.  As far as insomnia, I don't sleep well anyways, never have, but the Pentox has not made any noticeable difference.  I have not noticed any drowsiness with the medication.  I should note that I started the Pentox, Arginine, and traction at about the same time.  I really think all 3 are helping but cannot really attribute any degree of improvement to any particular regimen.  Frequency of nightime erections has improved, overall quality of erections are significantly better, the turtle effect is gone, and I have "found" about half an inch of the 1 1/4 inches I lost when I got this crap.  As I said earlier, I'm pretty encouraged...

[ComeBacKid]

I'm assuming you need a prescription for Pentox?

ComeBackid

[ComeBacKid]

Fighter,

Still taking ALC, two times daily for a grand total of slightly over 2 grams each day.  I have no yet closely observed any erection changes, I will be finishing the last of my TV in just a few days then I will analyze any changes once I"m off that medicine for a few days, as it increasese bloodflow.  Lost pain a few days after taking ALC, doesn't seem to have brought any size back thats for sure.  I will report in detail in about a week.  Got my IONO machine set up and will be moving on to that next.

ComeBackid

[Liam]

wantitstr8,  The night time erections must be facilitated by the arginine.  I am not on the pentox but I take the l-arginine.  I started having the nighttime erections nightly after about 3 weeks.  I then started back on Viagra and it worked.  It may be coincidental, but, I ain't changing anything  .  In two week it will be one year since my prostate surgery.  I strongly believe the arginine has helped with the ED.  I hope it is helping with the Peyronies Disease, too.

BTW, I have had the same success with the traction.

[Blink]

Hi everybody. I've been taking vitamin E and C for some time now. I don't think that they have made any improvement, but it hasn't gotten worse. I started using a VED about 3 weeks ago and noticed a difference in erection frequency(good). I have since started to use a water pic shower head to direct hot water onto my penis. As soon as I exit the shower, I use the VED. It is too soon to notice any difference at this point. I just started to take ALC last night. I will keep you all posted as to my progress as time goes by. I've also thought of taking baths in epsom salts, it can't hurt! Also been thinking of making a potion of epsom salts and aloe lotion to smear onto the crooked digit. If anyone has had any experiences with the use of epsom salts, I'd like to hear how you are doing, and any formulations that you might be using. Thanks everybody for your treatment strategies. Maybe a combination of supplements combined with heat and the VED will yield some favorable results. I figure it this way, all of the supplements are harmless. They may not cure me of my peyronies, but the rest of my body will be healthier! The use of all of these "treatments" takes time and effort, so they are probably helping to keep my demented mind occupied too! Keep the Faith, Blink

[Liam]

Blink,  I use the same strategy for the VED.  I think it helps to have a "warm up".  I strongly recommend l-arginine.  Look up the percent of men who obtain erections post radical retropubic prostatectomy.  I think it is helping me beat the odds.

I am taking orally" l-arginine, l-carnitine, l-citrulline, (what the "L" ) dhea, Korean red ginsing (liquid), and ginko biloba.  As a side note, my energy level has increased.

I am also using a transdermal with most of the same ingredients as above.  Can't see any immediate results from the transdermal unless you get it on your balls and it burns like hell.  It has alcohol in it.  

So far all nutritional supplements.

Now for the Rx: Wellbutrin and Viagra.