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Author Topic: Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?  (Read 478 times)

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RedWilly

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Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?
« on: April 22, 2020, 05:19:17 PM »

I stopped for about 3 months after 8-9 months of traction and VED treatment alongside Cialis and Pentox.

It looks like after that time I've regressed and lost slight length (.25) and some girth (.3). While it's not much, the girth part to both me and my partner is noticeable.

I've recently started again from week 1 for the VED therapy. I am going to start traction again just to be safe.

Is this normal? Are these therapies meant to be ongoing forever?
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bustedchubb

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Re: Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2020, 06:40:04 PM »

Based on the restorex documentation, they suggest a maintenance session plan for maintaining gains.

I actually had to stop traction thanks to developing a new dent across the top a few days after starting.. Great.  :/
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42 Yrs old, Peyronies Disease Onset 11/2019, Diagnosed 1/23/2020.

Dent/Hourglassing distal and dorsal side, 45 degree bend left, 30 degree bend up, lost length and girth.

CoQ10, Voltaren 3% topical, Propolis, A, K2 + D3, Bilberry, low carb diet (thanks NEOV)

samsung

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Re: Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2020, 08:15:54 AM »

I remember reading a while back NeoV saying gains from traction last forever. So that is not true? Does anyone actually, factually know anything? If traction is ongoing for life, everyone here needs to get an implant tomorrow. Why would anyone consent to life in prison?
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45 y.o. Single. Onset of symptoms (pain-stinging like a wasp) @ 6/2018. No sudden injury. Curve developed slowly. 40 deg. dorsal. Hourglassing. Torsion to left flaccid. 4 rounds xiaflex. Restorex, DMSO+, heat, arginine, cialis, lipoic acid, vit. K2

RedWilly

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Re: Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2020, 04:33:51 PM »

I read traction was permanent. And .25 inches of loss could be a measuring error. I have noticed a reduction in girth though. That is for certain not a measuring error when it’s 1/3 an inch loss at the site of my indent.

I’m more wondering if this is an ongoing thing with pumping or if girth is somehow different in length when it comes to restoring.
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melting

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Re: Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2020, 06:04:07 PM »

When you apply traction or VED there's always some expansion created.
The tunica and other tissue than will retract back to "normal" over some hours or days. Elastic deformation that "snaps back"

If done regularly some of it might stick as the tissue is plastically deformed and can expand more than before. Obviously people with peyronies should be careful overdoing any of that as it could create more injuries and plaques.
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Daily Transdermals and Traction/VED solved my Peyronies Disease https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,12587.0.html (DMSO+X)

samsung

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Re: Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2020, 08:48:42 PM »

Is there a study that says this? That it "snaps back?" Because if that is true then every single word on this forum is a total waste of time and energy and every single last man on this forum should either get surgery or an implant. Immediately. Anything else makes no sense if your efforts are totally wasted and it just "snaps back." Follow the logic....
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45 y.o. Single. Onset of symptoms (pain-stinging like a wasp) @ 6/2018. No sudden injury. Curve developed slowly. 40 deg. dorsal. Hourglassing. Torsion to left flaccid. 4 rounds xiaflex. Restorex, DMSO+, heat, arginine, cialis, lipoic acid, vit. K2

peter123

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Re: Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2020, 09:30:39 AM »

Is there a study that says this? That it "snaps back?" Because if that is true then every single word on this forum is a total waste of time and energy and every single last man on this forum should either get surgery or an implant. Immediately. Anything else makes no sense if your efforts are totally wasted and it just "snaps back." Follow the logic....

well the theory of why traction works int eh first place is due to mechanical transduction induced remodeling of the plaque. indeed plaque size is being reduced due to traction, its irrational to believe that the plaque would just magically grow back especially when you are in the chronic phase where there is no more inflammation. and less plaque size will lead to less curvature and gains in length and girth. also patients have been using this for quite a while now in a clinical setting, I think when everything would go back to square one after stopping, we would have heard about it by now. only one study I have found looked at a  6month follow up and they reported a maintenance of the gains during that period of time. however the sample size in those studies is always very small but I still think there is a takeaway
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TonySa

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Re: Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2020, 10:28:26 PM »

When the plaque is remodeled to healthy tissue it should not snap back.  If this was regularly happening we would have heard this from lots of guys.  That said, if you’ve worsened I’d get back on the treatment as it may be the disease worsening and the treatment was holding it back.
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PxD 2 yrs 9/16.  Failed all treatment. 9/11/18: excision, grafting & implant Dr Karpman MtnView Ca, AMS CX 18cm + 3-1cm RTEs.
Pump failed.  2/11/20 Dr Karpman installed Titan 22cm +1cm RTE.

melting

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Re: Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2020, 08:35:46 AM »

"snaps back." Follow the logic....

It's basic tissue dynamics and there are many studies around if you search for it. Mostly on tendons(similar to tunica) in sport injurys and recovery.
 
But you misunderstood what I said.
When it comes to deforming tissue like the Tunica or Peyronies Plaques via traction there are 3 basic dynamics in play.

ELASTIC DEFORMATION ("SNAP BACK")
PLASTIC DEFORMATION
and potentially BREAKING POINT

Elastic Deformation "snaps back" immediately or after some time. It's like stretching a rubber band. You remove the stretch -> SNAP BACK. The longer you apply the stretch the longer it takes to "Snap Back"

Plastic Deformation is when tissue stays deformed beyond the force being applied. You remove the stretch and it's still longer than before the stretch.

Breaking Point is when you keep the stretch up in time or intensity until the tissue breaks.

Realistically when you stretch your penis with traction you're not stretching 1 Piece of tissue but thousands of small 'pieces'.
So some will plastically deform and stay longer and some will only elastically deform and "snap back". THAT is why I said some expansion stays and some goes back to baseline 0.

The Peyronies Plaques(hard ones) have much less RANGE of elastic and plastic deformation and also an earlier breaking point than healthy tunica tissue. THIS MEANS that optimally the plaques will disintegrate while the healthy tissue only reaches plastic deformation

Time and Intensity and Frequency are the 3 means you can use to influence that. (4th is temperature)
If you stretch lightly for 10 minutes not much will happen. If you stretch lightly for 6 hours a day it's possible the expansion HAS NOT SNAPPED BACK until the next day when you again traction. Repeating that continuously can lead to plastic deformation too.
It's like filling a balloon with the same amount of air for 10 minutes or for 6 hours. Then let air out and the longer air in will be looser than the SNAPPED BACK 10 minute ballon.

That's why I think the generic recommendation with some of the traction and VED devices is nonsense and just there for the companies to be on the safe side. 
That's why I say, start with low time and low intensity(1-5 minutes) and increase slowly the time and/or intensity. And then get to a point where you truly challenge the plaques and the tissue to plastic deformation.
That's why I used traction sometimes for 16 hours a day and aimed to have from time to time an intensity that you can truly feel the tissue stretching to its limits BUT NEVER to breaking point of healthy tissue.

So you will have people who don't do enough and say it doesn't work(that's most). And then you will have people who do too much and break more and say it's all rubbish.
Then you will have some smart people(I hope) who use traction and co. in a way, time/intensity, that fits their situation.
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Daily Transdermals and Traction/VED solved my Peyronies Disease https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,12587.0.html (DMSO+X)

peter123

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Re: Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2020, 09:33:31 AM »

It's basic tissue dynamics and there are many studies around if you search for it. Mostly on tendons(similar to tunica) in sport injurys and recovery.
 
But you misunderstood what I said.
When it comes to deforming tissue like the Tunica or Peyronies Plaques via traction there are 3 basic dynamics in play.

ELASTIC DEFORMATION ("SNAP BACK")
PLASTIC DEFORMATION
and potentially BREAKING POINT

Elastic Deformation "snaps back" immediately or after some time. It's like stretching a rubber band. You remove the stretch -> SNAP BACK. The longer you apply the stretch the longer it takes to "Snap Back"

Plastic Deformation is when tissue stays deformed beyond the force being applied. You remove the stretch and it's still longer than before the stretch.

Breaking Point is when you keep the stretch up in time or intensity until the tissue breaks.

Realistically when you stretch your penis with traction you're not stretching 1 Piece of tissue but thousands of small 'pieces'.
So some will plastically deform and stay longer and some will only elastically deform and "snap back". THAT is why I said some expansion stays and some goes back to baseline 0.

The Peyronies Plaques(hard ones) have much less RANGE of elastic and plastic deformation and also an earlier breaking point than healthy tunica tissue. THIS MEANS that optimally the plaques will disintegrate while the healthy tissue only reaches plastic deformation

Time and Intensity and Frequency are the 3 means you can use to influence that. (4th is temperature)
If you stretch lightly for 10 minutes not much will happen. If you stretch lightly for 6 hours a day it's possible the expansion HAS NOT SNAPPED BACK until the next day when you again traction. Repeating that continuously can lead to plastic deformation too.
It's like filling a balloon with the same amount of air for 10 minutes or for 6 hours. Then let air out and the longer air in will be looser than the SNAPPED BACK 10 minute ballon.

That's why I think the generic recommendation with some of the traction and VED devices is nonsense and just there for the companies to be on the safe side. 
That's why I say, start with low time and low intensity(1-5 minutes) and increase slowly the time and/or intensity. And then get to a point where you truly challenge the plaques and the tissue to plastic deformation.
That's why I used traction sometimes for 16 hours a day and aimed to have from time to time an intensity that you can truly feel the tissue stretching to its limits BUT NEVER to breaking point of healthy tissue.

So you will have people who don't do enough and say it doesn't work(that's most). And then you will have people who do too much and break more and say it's all rubbish.
Then you will have some smart people(I hope) who use traction and co. in a way, time/intensity, that fits their situation.


I thought basically traction increases the levels of collagenase in the penis and that enzyme then converts the scar tissue to healthy tissue, makes it heal. that is most likely only one aspect of it though, otherwise one couldn't gain back lost length. then there is a thing called mechanotransduction (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanotransduction) which translates the stretch into chemical signaling and tissue alterations explained at the end of this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMHNCnsKO9k
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TonySa

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Re: Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2020, 09:46:11 PM »

I think peters explanation makes more sense...but the how if it isn’t as important as that it can work and be permanent gains.
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PxD 2 yrs 9/16.  Failed all treatment. 9/11/18: excision, grafting & implant Dr Karpman MtnView Ca, AMS CX 18cm + 3-1cm RTEs.
Pump failed.  2/11/20 Dr Karpman installed Titan 22cm +1cm RTE.

melting

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Re: Stopping Traction and VED Leads Loss Of Gains?
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2020, 08:29:08 PM »


I thought basically traction increases the levels of collagenase in the penis and that enzyme then converts the scar tissue to healthy tissue, makes it heal.

That would mean traction alone makes the plaques itself go away. Didn't observe that on myself. I felt like I was stretching them, disintegrating them while also stretching the healthy tissue making the impact of the plaques on the erection process less.
(along with other measures).

Traction is a very simple concept on the face of it. It applies to all materialsand it will also apply to the penis and it's tissue. It's mechanical functions are well researched in tendons(similar to tunica) and muscles etc. in sports medicine.

Healthy penis tissue has a rather high flexibility and the peyronies plaques don't.(that's the problem with peyronies)
If you stretch both same time the plaques reach plastic deformation or breaking point earlier than the healthy tissue.

Of course chemical processes happen along the way too. It's like the function of breathing is obvious and the chemical events come along with it. Hope you understand what Im trying to say.
Mechanotransduction seems to be pertinent to specific type of tissue as part of the tissues function. I don't see it applying to faulty tissue.

Heat influences the material properties and how materials react to traction too.
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Daily Transdermals and Traction/VED solved my Peyronies Disease https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,12587.0.html (DMSO+X)
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