Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[james1947]

I didn't know about it, I posted it on the library board

James

[melting]

Quote modified by moderator.
melting - it come the time you read the forum rules regarding quote!!!
Not complying to the forum rules will result in a warning attached to your name.
James
If there is one guy that sems to check everything available to treat peyronies then Mohammad Reza Safarinejad .
Mohammad Reza Safarinejad - Iran | LinkedIn
Safarinejad MR - PubMed - NCBI[Author]&cauthor=true&cauthor_uid=20720560
I trust him..
His study was also over a long period of time.

And Q10 helped several people here with at least pain.

Now there is much talk about absorption issues. The problem with peyronies is that the tissue affected is in the worst spot possible. If you have already Erectile Dysfunction problems for example the tissue will get even less blood supply and thus less supplements/vitamins.

It was only shortly suggested in this thread but I will bring it up again.

DMSO might help with adminestering Q10 to where it should be.
Did anyone ever try q10 topicly/transdermally with DMSO?

I will try it as soon as I get q10.

[emasculated]

After one week on coq10 I noticed 3 things.

1. My plaque feels HUGE, much bigger than before. Bad thing.

2. Pain is improved.

3. My mood is better and I'm generally more energetic.

1. is a deal breaker though.. I hope it's only temporary and this does not actually increase plaque size.

[RoyHobbs]

Your increase in plaque size is unlikely related to coq10.

[james1947]

I will second Roy.
Not logic that CoQ10 will cause the plaque to increase.

James

[NeoV]

The famous Iranian study has something interesting contained in it regarding a crossover to vascular disease, in which nearly 30% of those with Peyronie's were found to have vascular problems. It was pointed out that it was that 30% that improved the most, going on to describe the change in penile artery health following CoQ10 supplementation. This may mean that, it's CoQ10's ability to heal those issues that makes it so potent in treating Peyronies Disease. I think this is very cool, the issue then is that it's possible that it would not help those without vascularily induced Peyronies Disease or vascular problems as the study mentions.

After taking the supplement at 200, now 300mg a day for just a few weeks along with pycnogenol, my penis hangs better than I've had it hang in my life. Now this could easily be due to the more recent manual stretching I've been doing, but the improvement is very significant to me. My erections are very very solid, which could be from the pycnogenol's effect on nitric oxide production, but I think overall the combination of very potent antioxidants are doing their work!

Yesterday was the first day I really read that Iranian study, and I really am impressed. I figure I'll be taking this long term with results like that!

-V

[skunkworks]

My money is on the vascular issues being caused by the same thing that causes a penis to heal improperly, rather than being the cause of the Peyronie's itself. Very possible it would exacerbate Peyronie's though.

[UrsusMinor]

Quote changed by moderator!!! Please read the forum rules!!!

Yeah, right--the CoQ10 manufacturers want to make a lot of money by selling huge volumes of CoQ10. So their evil genius plot is to:

1) Study a disease that is so obscure almost no one recognizes its name, and

2) Pay off a respected Peyronie's specialist in Iran to bias his results, because everybody automatically trusts research coming out of Iran, and any research that is done in Iran immediately makes it into the peer-reviewed journals without any serious criticism, because the Iranian Peyronie's research cabal is so powerful.

--------------------------

I don't think supplement manufacturers are any more honest than pharmaceutical companies--though they have only a tiny fraction as much money. (And pharmaceutical companies have already been shown to have deliberately withheld negative results; there is legislation pending on this in the US.) In any case, your criticism that manufacturers may have sponsored and therefore biased the results are quite valid--and they are far more valid in the case of most published studies of pharmaceuticals. Therefore following your logic, we can't believe anything...

...but, after your deep research on the topic (i.e. you read a Wikipedia entry--and those are never biased or incorrect) you choose to seriously question only one clinical, peer-reviewed study.

And you pick one where the financial stakes for the producers are so low that they would have to be idiots to spend any money on deception. Hey, that makes sense!

---------------------

By the way, Safarinejad's study on Pentox is considered to be the pioneering study on Pentox and Peyronie's. It was published a year before his CoQ10 study. If I am to doubt his CoQ10 study, then I really have to question his earlier Pentox study, because I assure you, Sanofi/Aventis Pharmaceuticals have a lot more cash than all the vitamin manufacturers in the world put together--and far greater profit margins, since they are behind a wall of patents.

I'm a little baffled. According to the Library, you provided the link to the CoQ10 study you are questioning--though only to the abstract.

I've read both of the full studies. Point by point, the studies were conducted in an almost-identical fashion; even the layout of the tables is similar.

Overall, the results of the CoQ10 study were more positive than the results of the Pentox study.

So, if you are going to throw away one of these two oral treatments, I'd throw away the Pentox first.

So why are you focusing on the CoQ10?

 

 

[emasculated]

Well, I have not said it is suspect. I have simply given some examples of other studies with bad methodology. And I've also not mentioned any conspiracy theory. And btw, the Pentox Study is not accepted by the European Urology association, they find it suspect and therefore do not recommend Pentox for the treatment of Peyronies. Does that mean I find the study suspect as well? No, not necessarily.

[james1947]

The European medicine is far back than the US and the Asian regarding Peyronies because Europe want to show independence
Expressing my private opinion.

James

[George999]

I would add to this discussion the known fact that CoQ10 IS an ESSENTIAL nutrient and that too little of it can lead to mitochondrial damage which manifests itself as tissue damage.  And a known depleter of CoQ10 is beta blockers AND beta blockers just happen to be associated with Peyronie's.  Thus, beyond the "suspect" Iranian study, there is plenty of peripheral evidence that supplementation can only be helpful.  And if it reduces pain, it will most likely reduce future scarring.  Plaques come and go, enlarge and shrink.  Scar tissue and resulting deformity are long term and are what you want to avoid.  So don't waste too much time obsessing over lumps.  Whether it is Pentox or CoQ10 or VED or whatever else.  It is likely going to work better for some than others.  For some it might not seem to work at all.  But all of these known Peyronie's treatments are VERY UNLIKELY to actually make Peyronie's worse ever.  There is such a thing as unrelated coincidence.  "I was taking CoQ10 and my Peyronie's got worse, therefore CoQ10 obviously caused it."  Well it could actually be that you might have gotten even worse without the CoQ10.  There is no way aside from controlled trials to indicate whether something actually works.  And the ONLY controlled trials we have show that CoQ10 works.  Aside from that there are the peripheral known facts like those I mentioned above.  AND aside from that, there are multiple people here who have experienced benefit.  I would be very careful before writing ANY of these treatments off based on brief personal experience that can be very subjective and very misleading.

[Old Man]

George:

Please give us your take on the differences between Qunol for us older guys versus CoQ10 for younger guys. I have started on Qunol Ultra for over 50 guys (soon to be 85 in September).

I have noticed a decrease in my belly fat and feel much better than before starting the supplement. Your comments would be greatly appreciated by and maybe other older guys on the main forum. I am on some beta blockers too.

Old Man

[George999]

Old Man, I really can believe that Qunol could be helping you significantly.  With various types of CoQ10, it is all about absorption since CoQ10 is notoriously difficult for the body to absorb.  I really do believe that the Ubiquinol forms are better absorbed than Ubiquinone, but there is significant disagreement on that.  So I would say to try both and to try various formulations and when you find what works best for you, BINGO!  CoQ10 IS a very potent supplement for those who are in any way deficient, so I would say not to give up.  If you try plain old Ubiquinone (ordinary CoQ10) and find it unhelpful, for sure consider trying the Ubiquinol forms even though they are quite expensive.  Qunol itself is available both as Ubiquinol AND as Ubiquinone.  But Qunol has a unique formulation that might be superior for certain people in addition to the Ubiquinol advantage.

[Old Man]

George:

Thanks for the insight on these products. I am taking a brand of Qunol Ultra. It was recommended by my pharmacist friend who says it would work best for an old goat of 85 like me!

I have noticed one good side effect or it already. I have lost a good bit of belly fat without losing any inches in waist size of 38. That is good since I have a good wardrobe of 38 size pants and I don't need to replace them just yet!

My dosage is one large capsule per day after breakfast (as recommended by my friend). Based on my med list she says that I have to be careful of taking on supplements that might interfere with the RXd meds.

Thanks again, and hope this might help any members who are considering using CoQu10 of related supplements.

Old Man

[UrsusMinor]

...I have not said it is suspect...I've also not mentioned any conspiracy theory.

I don't know how else to interpret your original post. Quoting a Wikipedia page on CoQ10, you said that supplement manufacturers often pay for studies, and the studies often display flawed methodologies. Paying researchers to deliberately bias results is certainly what I would call a conspiracy.

And then you say that in light of all that, you question how reliable the Safarinejad CoQ10 study is.

To me, 'questioning the reliability" of something and "considering it suspect" are pretty much the same thing.

[George999]

The wikipedia page on CoQ10 cited by emasculated is uncharacteristically biased in its analysis of CoQ10 as a treatment for various maladies.  Remember, while usually a good source of information, specific topics on wikipedia are only as reliable as are their contributors.  In this case, whoever edited this particular section of the CoQ10 page is obviously very biased against CoQ10, or more likely against supplements in general.  There are actually lots of CoQ10 studies out there and it is easy to cherry pick those studies to come up with a given preferred result.  Meta studies are particularly vulnerable to manipulation.  If anyone is interested in just how biased this information from wikipedia is, I suggest they check this page out:

http://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/coenzyme-q10/evidence/hrb-20059019

I find the opinions of Mayo Clinic to be of far more weight than an anonymously edited wikipedia page.

And Ursa, I understand your concern about the quote.  But it is fairly easy to bring it up with the link James inserted.  In the past, brief quotes have been allowed here, so I am not sure what James' concern is about your particular post, but I do know that long quotes can be a problem.

George

[emasculated]

Different question: I'm using the soft-gel Coq10 capsules. I used to store them in cupboard. But since it's been hot these past weeks they're now totally soft and half melted. I think I have to throw them away... They are freakin expensive. :-(
Hence question: Can I store them henceforth in the fridge without problems?

[UrsusMinor]

That's a tough one. The manufacturers suggest a minimum storage temp of 59-86 F (15-30 C). One of them says exposures to freezing temperatures for less than a week doesn't affect potency, but that 'refrigeration is neither necessary nor recommended.'

My guess is that you'd probably be fine with storing them in a refrigerator as long as it isn't set too low. It's certainly a better bet than having the capsules melt together.

(I agree that they are far from cheap, but they seem to be cheaper in the US than in many places.)

[NeoV]

I'm buying the cheapest veggie caps available, and loving them.
Maybe it's a bad choice but I prefer quantity over quality being as poor as I am right now.

[melting]

With Peyronies Disease you better have no long stretches of not using anything to attack the tissue as it will harden again.

Isnt Qoq10 not always fro mthe same manufacturer in japan kaneka? Or was that only with the ubiquinol.

[Caesar]

(I agree that they are far from cheap, but they seem to be cheaper in the US than in many places.)

How much do you pay there in the US, Ursus?
I buy the NOW Foods Ubiquinol (100mg, 60 softgels) for 35.45€ which is around 47.61$

[UrsusMinor]

Caesar, I also use the NOW brand, but I use the 200 mg Ubiquinol softgels, 60 count (I take 400 mg/day). That usually costs $45.50 from Amazon US, shipping included, but sometimes they have discounts if you buy 2-packs or 3-packs, so I'd guess I'm paying about $40 per 60X, 200 mg. To get onto a comparable footing, that's about 33 cents US per 100 mg softgel.

The 100 mg, 60 count softgels are $24.70 from Amazon US, which is 41 cents per 100 mg softgel.

If you're paying $47.61 per 60X, 100 mg, then that's 126 cents ($1.26) per softgel, which is 3-3.8 times as much as I am paying, which is even worse than I thought.

But the prices, even on Amazon US, are all over the board. I can find prices here that are almost as high as you quoted, for the same NOW, 100 mg, 60-count bottles.

An economist would say this is an inefficient market. I'm not an economist, so I will simply say that this is totally screwed up.

[Mending the Bend]

I've been using Jarrow Formulas brand Ubiquinol (also from Amazon), 100 mg x 120 capsules for $31.50, which is markedly less expensive than the Now brands $45.50 for the same volume of Ubiquinol (200 mg x 60 = 100 mg x 120).

The Jarrow brand also currently has a 4.5 star rating from over 300 purchasers, so most people seem to be very happy with it - me included.

[George999]

I am using the Jarrow brand now, as well.  I source it from either iHerb or Amazon.  Lately I have been getting it from Amazon as part of my Amazon Prime package.

[melting]

I think mixing different brands is a good thing. Worst would be to be using one brand that is low quality.
Its so hard to determine what is good and what not.. Using 3 different brands will heighten the odds that you will get something good.

[dplookin]

Regarding COQ10 / Ubiquinol.........."Jarrow" is an Excellent Brand of just about everything.  That is what I have been using.  It's not cheap, but you get what you pay for.  Just FYI...dplookin

[UrsusMinor]

Jarrow is a great company. Life Extension is also great. Doctor's Best and NOW are also usually quite reliable.

I tend to buy two-month supplies, and follow whatever deal is available. It's surprising how the prices bounce around.

Melting has a good point, though--mixing it up might have advantages.

[NeoV]

I would not lump CoQ10 into the category of a simple antioxidant.

" It has been reported that solubilized CoQ10 suppresses the expression of TGF-β1 induced by dimethylnitrosamine in mouse liver and mouse embryonic fibroblast cells.16 In addition, CoQ10 activates NF-E2-related factor-2 (Nrf2).16 Nrf2 overexpression itself reduces the basal expression of α-smooth muscle actin and TGF-β1.16 Therefore, CoQ10-induced Nrf2 activation may suppress TGF-β1 expression. This study is the first prospective, double-blind, placebo-controlled randomized study on the effects of CoQ10 supplementation in men with early chronic Peyronies Disease."
- Also "According to intergroup analysis, penile artery spectral traces were significantly improved in the CoQ10"

I have to say, since stopping CoQ10 2 weeks ago due to my credit card not going through my inflammation is back and I've even had some kind of progression. Of course it could be due to having too much alcohol recently but either way I can't foresee myself not taking this supplement for now. Good news is I ordered up a long supply.

[UrsusMinor]

I think if you are over 35 years old, CoQ10 is worth taking even if you don't have Peyronie's. As far as I can see, it's a no-regrets policy--it's good for you anyhow.

I agree with Neo that the antioxidant effects are probably irrelevant. It enhances mitochondrial function.