Rico had suggested trying VASO from GNC. 240 capsules. It has all the supps we've been discussing(Arginine,Citrulline, Ornithine, )(NOS--Nitric oxide stimulator, basically,)Very quality ingredients.I bought a Gold Card and every first  7 days of the month, you get 20% discount. In addition, if you find any of their products or competitors , on their web sites cheaper, they will match price. I bought this at $48.00 and 2nd bottle half off($24.00), with the 20% off as well.. Along with ACL, trazedone(25mg) epsom salt baths, and a mix of oils massaged into little henry, I am noticing fuller erections, hanging bigger, and less pain.Just started Pentox a couple days ago. I space everything out with light meals now.
Ziggy

Anyone know if Arginine or Carnatine effect your mood, i thought i read somethin about chemichal imbalance.

Blink,  

I oredered it from the internet.  I am using a powder now.  I thoght it would be easier for my stomach to tolerate and easier to swallow.  Wrong (it has my stomach on fire)and Wrong (bitter).  I prefer the 1000 mg GNC "horse pills" to the powder.  The Nitrix is 1000 mg per cap.  That will make adjusting dosage fairly simple.

Liam

I ordered several of the things I take in bulk powder form and they are NASTY! I can't even smell them, much less swallow them.

I am going to order a capsule filling device from the place I ordered the bulk stuff from. In addition to having some things I cannot find locally (like propionyl L-carnitine), the prices are about 1/3 to 1/4 of the cheapest locally available supplements. It adds up, since I am taking so much.

As of now, my regimen includes:

acetyl l-carnitine       1gm    twice daily
citrulline                 1.5 gm twice daily
alpha lipoic acid        300 mg twice daily
primrose oil               (still figuring dose)
Dr. Weil's vitamin E     400 mg twice daily
"Triple Ginseng"          2 caps twice daily
Horny goat weed with
Maca                        2 caps twice daily

a variety of vitamins, including coenzyme Q and vitamin C.

VED exercises stretching - not doing the different diameter cylinder protocol
Sporadic verapamil iontophoresis

I am thinking of adding PLC, Trental, and examining more closely the reason for failure of ionto (amperage output variability, skin impedance, etc) - I amy try decadron instead).

Here is the "capping supply" link:

http://www.goendurance.com/?cPath=131

Tim, can you expand on the reasoning behind taking Horny goat weed with maca?
I know little of this. I'm basically taking/doing everything you are in addition to Gota Kola - http://www.richters.com/newdisplay.cgi?page=./QandA/Medicinal/19980906-8.html&cart_id=5957169.8723 and
Tamanu oil - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamanu_Oil#Treatment_for_scars, mixed with emu oil.
Thanks
Zigwyth witha Twigyth--

Tyler,

As soon as I was on Acetyl L Carnitine for a few days I noticied a big improvment in my mood.  Also before I loved to drink beer a lot and really put them away, ever since starting this medicine I've totally quit cold turkey and haven't had a drink in months.  I read a study somewhere on the internet that ALC can help with alcohol addiction, while I wasn't an alcoholic I was drinking at school two or three days a week some weeks, and LOVED to drink, although a lot of people did.  The L Arginine has clearly given me better bloodflow to my penis after I added that, I also take some ALC pills mixed with Alpha Lipoic Acid.  But yeah I can tell the ALC has helped my mood, I run everyday now to get in shape, can't hurt your disease or your health!  I may look into the GNC mix Rico was talking about and just take that rather than all these different pills.

A cautionary note for anyone taking more than 400 IU's of vitamin E and working with any VED.  If you take 800 IU's or above the vitamin E will act as a blood thinner and then when you use the VED you will get red dots on your penis.  I had no problems when taking only 400 IU's of vitamin E, then when I increased to 800 IU's I got these dots, then when I stopped taking vitamin E altogether they went away.  During this time I was doing the exact same pumping routine and using the same amount of pressure with no pain, so I know that it was not the pumping that caused the red dots.  

Scierolysis, or the dissolving of scar tissue, utilizes bee venom therapy. You can read about it in the American Apitherapy Society- Journal- Enhancing Sclerolysis with Bee Venom....

The hyaluronidase is interesting with the attacking of scar tissue ect....proponyl L carnitine I know has this also(Tim is this why you looking at this supplement)?.

I just mention this because I made a little joke on the other post about bee venom....

At first when I got peyronies I was so concern about dissolving the plaque or scar.....now I know if it goes away my problem is still there, it is the elasticity of the tunica that I care about, removing the scar means nothing if lost of length ect..girth isn't resolved for me.....

I remember seeing this show where the local doctor of some tribe would take the bee and use the stinger and live bee to give the person the venom, I can't remember what it was for now.....if I ever get to the point where I'm humping a honey hole, please someone shoot me:)!!!!

Rico

The reason that I am using propionyl L carnitine is because it is one of the few medicines or supplements that has been shown in a blinded trial to lead to improvement is Peyronies Disease. Used with ALC in an about 50/50 mix at about a total of 3-4 grams a day in divided doses, it leads to improvement.

We need to remember to share information that relates to Peyronies Disease in proven, or semi-proven or even anecdotal ways. Although it is important to talk about concepts such as inflammation, or breaking up scar tissue, or creating an anti-oxidant milieu in the tissue, we alwasy need to remember that we are being read by newcomers who are looking for solid information.

Horny goat weed is an interesting example. It has properties that are similar to viagra, and it is all well and good to talk about using it to either promote healthy erections, or as an anti-inflammatory medicine. But it is Viagra that has been studied - not goat weed. So, I am willing to discuss goat weed, but not to *recommend* it as a way to treat Peyronies Disease. The fact is that no one knows if that helps. Similarly, there are NO DATA regarding Peyronies Disease and many other supplements, other aminio acids, other herbal remedies including some we talk about all the time!

Maybe we need a separate posting thread called "Conjecture and Discussion", instead of Vitamins etc. I just strongly believe that we need to be judicious in how we talk about wht *might* work for someone. I believe our advice ought to be based on *some* sort of evidence.

Tim

Here is my rationale, and an update on how I am doing:

Horny goat weed for it's phosphodiesterase activity that makes it work "like" viagra. It may not be much cheaper, though, unless you look for a good deal. Mine just came with Maca in it (I didn't notice when I bought it). It is definitely leading to harder erections for me (see below).

I take the maca because I believe that my testosterone levels are low, and this can affect that axis by either reducing other androgens, or increasing bioavailable testosterone. I took it to promote healthier erections and libido. Not sure of any effect yet.

Finally, in a head to head comparison I read, "Korean Red Ginseng" led to no different effects than placebo on a lot of erectile dysfunction scores. But it did do one interesting thing.. it lead to longer erections at night, which is what trazadone does. Basicly, think of viagra as opening the flood gates to let blood into the penis, and trazadone as a drug that prevents the blood from draining out. Well, the ginseng worked better than trazadone on that one thing. So, I postulate it may have an alpha adrenergic blocade effect (like trazadone).

So, I happened to start both at once, and I have been waking up - um, as hard as a rock. I have stopped both, and I plan to selectively restart one at a time (I am starting with the Red Ginseng - actually a mix of all three common ginsengs), to see if I can figure out if both or only one is needed.

Tim

Tim,

You are right on the blind leading the blind. I know you are a smart man and it doesn't take long from reading your post to start to look at hard anything you are doing....you have a following:)....

You listed your supplements that you take(which I feel is great)...now someone reads you take horney goat weed....this in a way would promote it, why would Tim take it....

Myself I don't take it, I feel I get enough blood flow from the arginine sport mix and exercise....

I don't want anyone to stifle anyones thoughts, you like me I feel can weigh out our choices and it seems if something comes on here that is way out there, then it is soon to be brought to everyones attention...

I think are strength lies in our open discussion and mature and understanding ones needs to take control of his own condition, and understand that not everyones condition is the same also....

When someone brings up chripo or pentox ect....it makes you dig for information.

I know so many times people say, what the heck is good for you these days, one day your turn on the news and they say that will give you cancer, the next day someone says, that same thing will cure cancer....

My urologist(suppuse to be top in field), told me to take potaba.....I didn't because I didn't believe it, I like the guy, but that was a choice I made base off of reading information from people with peyronies....

I have read your list of supplement list.....and several others on here and made my own choices...I would  feel you would be a taker and not a giver of information and not in the true spirit of the forum if you wouldn't tell us what you are using. I have respect for you because you just don't read post, but put your thoughts down for us.

The "author" or some of the studies out there also are too be taken with a pinch of salt...I worked in corporate finance for a short period for a small investment bank who worked on small medical deals, ones trying to raise money in the equity markets, when you need to get more funds to fuel the rocket ship to continue your research ect....well, these studies can start looking more promising than they are....Cash Is King! and I know that is a fact....been there, seen it happen...

I know I wouldn't be on here if my doctor had the answer...and all you guys just reading(like I did for the first two months), when you are done, we want to hear from you, throw in your two cents....keep it clean and mature dialogue, agree to disagree...it looks like to me about 5% of the members post on a regular basis.....


Instead of conjecture and discussion, can we call it Rico Logic:)....

In life people say Flow with the Go....once you understand Jiu-Jitsu you Go with the Flow....


Rico

I had the same response.  I stopped and the strong night time erections stopped (although I also stopped 2 other supplements at the same time).  I plan to start again on the first of the month (using my GNC card).  I will report any effect or lack (hope not) of effect.

Does anyone have information on this supplement?  I am aware of some of the claims.  The only info I've found, so far, is from sites that sell the product.

Rico said: "I know I wouldn't be on here if my doctor had the answer"

Isn't that the truth! None of would be here. So the search for help must continue.

Here is my personal way of doing this (here). I try to talk physiology, because I know it well. I figure that is something I can contribute that is unique or special, and can be of value to others. So, when I read something that does not make sense to me, I speak up. One example has been the conjecture about how a VED works.

Now, I do not contest the notion that VEDs work - I want to discuss HOW they work. Similarly, I am interested in talking about HOW horny goat weed (HGW) might help. In that case though, we have no evidence that it does help. Instead, we are taking some information (that viagra has an antiinflammatory effect) and extrapolating it to another viagra-like thing (HGW) to discuss.

One other little thing (added as a tag here) - I have not read that oxygenation is "better" with nocturnal erections. I read it here - can anyone tell where that came from?

Tim

There have to be a number of physiological conditions that can encourage the kind of scarring that causes peyronies.  So, depending on what the cause(s) is/are, the solution might be different for different individuals.  zigwyth inquired about horny goat weed.  So, now that Tim has posted his comments, let me add the following.  Horny goat weed is one of those herbs deeply rooted in Chinese herbal medicine that is now becoming popular in the west.  Horny goat weed contains icariin.  Icariin is known to be a PDE-5/PDE-4 inhibitor.  Many people who suffer from impotence have the problem because of an excessive amount of PDE-5.  PDE-5 is the regulatory substance for nitric oxide.  In the case of male sexual function, too much PDE-5 causes impotence.  On the other hand too little PDE-5 (or too much inhibition of existing PDE-5) causes priapism and other bad effects.  So it is extremely important that PDE-5 levels be properly controlled.  The same is true with hypertension (and perhaps other aspects of metabolic syndrome).  Too much PDE-5 in the vascular tissue and that tissue atrophies and hardens in the absence of nitric oxide.  But similarly, even in the vascular system, PDE-5 is necessary to prevent an overproduction of nitric oxide which can result in hypotension as well as other bad effects.  Liam brought up Cnidium Monnier. Cnidium Monnier is another Chinese herbal substance which is claimed to be a PDE-5 inhibitor.  At this point Cnidium Monnier is less known in the west and is usually found only as a component of more complex (usually body building type) supplements.  The problem then becomes, what are the effects of these other substances, or if I buy the Cnidium Monnier directly from the Chinese herbalists, what sort of toxic payload might the Cnidium Monnier be carrying along with it.  Certainly it is an interesting herlbal substance, but at this point I am not daring enough to incorporate it.  I am also put off by the lack of solid research behind it, at least horny goat weed has some solid research in terms of its effect on PDE-5.  The other interesting aspect of horny goat weed is that it is a CNS depressant (it acts against cortisol) in contrast to substances like yohimbe which, while being a vascular relaxant (via a non PDE-5 channel), also tends to be an anxiety stimulant.  Unlike horny goat weed, Viagra inhibits not only PDE-5 (nitric oxide pathway), but also PDE-4 (inflamation) AND PDE-3 (optic issues), and thus is a non-specific PDE inhibitor.  Both PDE-5 and PDE-4 effects may be helpful in the case of peyronies, since nitric oxide not only dialates blood vessels, but is also known to disolve plaque (collagen) and rejuvinate atrophied tissues.  And of course the anti-inflamation effect of PDE-4 inflamation is important for obvious reasons.  Levitra and Cialis tend to be more PDE-5 specific with Cialis being known for its extremely long lasting inhibition of PDE-5.  Incidently cocoa is a broad spectrum PDE inhibitor which could cover a range of topics and studies are showing that consumption of cocoa results in demonstrably improved health.   zigwyth also inquired as to why  horny goat weed is often combined with maca.  The answer to that question goes back to the whole concept of Chinese herbalism.  While western medicine seeks to isolate and employ highly refined substances a 'mono therapies', Chinese herbalism takes the opposite approach constantly seeking to find synergies between naturally occuring substances.  Thus there are some interesting synergies of horny goat weed with maca.  Maca is also know to improve sexual function through different mechanisms and is reputed to increase alertness and energy without stimulating the central nervous system.  Maca also contains high levels of arginine which is a perfect fit with the PDE-5 suppressing capability of horny goat weed.  Horny goat weed opens the channel, maca supplies the fuel.  All of this is very subtle, but also very incremental, with results claimed at least to become more obvious over time.  Going back to Viagra, Viagra was initially developed as a medication for hypertension, then its sexual effects were noted and the rest is history.  There is a lot more money for the drug companies in fighting impotence than there is in fighting hypertension.  At this point Viagra is actually marketed queitly under another brand name for the treatment of pulminary hypertension and Cialis is in the midst of trials for the treatment of essential hypertension.  The more one studies the research, the more the links between metabolic syndrome and peyrones (and other degenerative diseases) become obvious.  I certainly hope this information is helpful to better understanding of these substances.  It is all observations that I have gleaned through many hours of searching the internet and comparing notes.  If anyone has further questions, or corrections, please feel free to chime in.  We are all learning from each other, and through that, hopefully finding things that are helpful.  And I can attest for one that there is much I have learned right here on this forum.  God bless you all.

- George

Tim,

I read that right out of our peyronies resource library, thanks to a piece Hawk pulled off the internet by a seemingly credible professor/pharmacist.

"Oxygen from the blood has an important role in erectile health. Oxygen levels vary widely from reduced levels in the flaccid state to very high levels in the erect state. During sleep, oxygen levels are high and a man can normally have three to five nocturnal erections per night, each lasting from 20 to 40 minutes. These nocturnal erections are thought to be part of the body's natural maintenance of healthy erectile tissue. Oxygen levels appear to affect two substances that are important in achieving erection: transforming growth factor 1 (TGF-B1) and prostaglandin E1."

Here is a link to the full text of the literature.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:ZbXciNt3hSIJ:www.continuingeducation.com/pharmacy/impotencetreatment/impotencetreatment.pdf+erection+%2Btrazadone+%2BPathophysiology&hl=en&client=firefox-a

Thanks ComeBackid - that makes it clearer.

I tend to think both in terms of oxygen content and O2 delivery. Since the oxygen content would not be expected to be different in blood at night versus the day (in fact a bit lower because of decreased ventilation), I was confused. The issue is that DELIVERY is determined by both the content of the blood, and how much blood is delivered. Thus, the oxygen concentration is not greater at night - simply the amount of blood, which thus delivers more molecules that way.

Here is the simple analogy (which always works best for me!):

A train carries oranges from station A to Station B. To get MORE oranges to B, we have some choices -

1) more box cars to carry oranges
2) load more oranges on each box car
3) have the train go faster.

The analogy is

1) more hemoglobin or blood cells
2) higher oxygen tension
3) increased blood flow/rate

It is the increased blood flow that increases the oxygen, not something magical about nighttime.

Besides, it is often socially unacceptable to walk around with an erection at work!  

Tim

I would like to thank George and Tim for not only this particular info, but the fact that you continue to offer your insights with reports or facts for the basis of your statements. Everyone has an opinion on what they believe will or will not work, and with this Peyronies Disease, I feel we owe it to other members to provide these reports, studies or facts before we start "pushing" our opinions. I for one, would research out these treatment options such as Horney Goat weed and maca or ask other members their thoughts about why they take these. Thus the reasoning behind the question to Tim. If anyone were to ask me why I take Gota Kola, I would certainly offer reports and studies on it's medicinal benefits such as the following:
http://www.nutritionalsupplementsadvisor.com/gotu_kola.html
The fact that another member thinks it's redundant is irrelevant to me. As far as Monkey see Monkey do, everyone has a brain. They might start using it.
Zig

Could we load more oranges?  Would it help? HMMMMM

I wish my professors had such clear analogies.


Liam

Well guys I went down to the local GNC store today to see what you guys have been talking about on here.

First off, I checked out this VASO pill that Rico was talking about.  From the ingredients it doesn't look like it has L Arginine, ALC, and L citruline in it.  It seems to be designed for body builders with creatine mixes, tri-creatine that is.  The guy at the store said its what body builders use to build more muscle, I'm kind of confused as to who concluded it contains the l agrinines and acl etc that we need to treat peyronies.  

Second I checked out the Nitrix, once again the guy told me this is for body builders and deals with muscles and building them up, he also said the whey protein is for that to, I"m not sure how these are effective in attacking peyronies, can someone fill me in?

I did see a MEGA MENS pill which seemed to have tons of vitamins and minerals in it and even have l-gutamine, and l arginine in it, is anyone taking this?  Perhaps taking to many vitamins and minerals like that at once with excess calcium could be a bad thing?

I checked out the red korean ginseng and a "tri ginseng as well," man one could sort through all the supplements in that store for hours, they don't really say on them what they do either, except the body building ones.  Checked out the dhea and testosterone, the store associate (body builder), told me to stay away from that stuff cause it will effect your mood and what not.  

Heres the way I see it:

ALC- We take this because there is some evidence through studies it can stop pain and may reduce curve
L Arginine- There is MUCH evidence it will strengthen the tone of blood vessels

After these two supplements I don't really see alot of the reasoning to take all the other supplements?  Tim has also warned me it may not be a good idea to take the horny goat weed with macca with trazodone, so Zig and others taking both be careful.   I seemed to be left confused after my trip today with so much stuff to choose from.

Korean Red ginseng and horny goat weed with macca all do the same thing-increase  sex drive.  The impression I got from Tim was if your using any of these to not use trazodone. The question is which is better korean red ginseng, or horny goat weed with macca?  

Also I guess it would be a bad idea to take viagra with trazodone?  Or for that matter to take viagra with red korean ginseng or horny goat weed with macca?

ComeBackid

A short list of studies:

Effect of Epimedium brevicornum Maxim extract on elicitation of penile erection in the rat.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16527595&query_hl=53&itool=pubmed_docsum

Flavonoids derived from herbal Epimedium Brevicornum Maxim prevent OVX-induced osteoporosis in rats independent of its enhancement in intestinal calcium absorption.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16413840&query_hl=53&itool=pubmed_docsum

Epimedium brevicornum Maxim extract relaxes rabbit corpus cavernosum through multitargets on nitric oxide/cyclic guanosine monophosphate signaling pathway.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16395327&query_hl=53&itool=pubmed_docsum

Antidepressant-like effect of icariin and its possible mechanism in mice.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16380159&query_hl=53&itool=pubmed_docsum

New estrogenic prenylflavone from Epimedium brevicornum inhibits the growth of breast cancer cells.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15729618&query_hl=53&itool=pubmed_docsum

Cytotoxic effects of Coptis chinensis and Epimedium sagittatum extracts and their major constituents (berberine, coptisine and icariin) on hepatoma and leukaemia cell growth.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=14756686&query_hl=54&itool=pubmed_docsum

Effect of Epimedium sagittatum on quality of life and cellular immunity in patients of hemodialysis maintenance.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=7647539&query_hl=54&itool=pubmed_docsum

Effects of Epimedium sagittatum on immunopathology and extracellular matrices in rats with chronic renal insufficiency.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=8070296&query_hl=54&itool=pubmed_docsum

The testosterone mimetic properties of icariin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16751992&query_hl=42&itool=pubmed_docsum

Effects of icariin on erectile function and expression of nitric oxide synthase isoforms in castrated rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16281085&query_hl=42&itool=pubmed_docsum

Protective effects of icariin on neurons injured by cerebral ischemia/reperfusion.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16232349&query_hl=42&itool=pubmed_docsum

Effect of icariin on hypoxia induced vascular endothelial cells injury.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16025968&query_hl=42&itool=pubmed_docsum

Effects of icariin on the erectile function and expression of nitrogen oxide synthase isoforms in corpus cavernosum of arterigenic erectile dysfunction rat model.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15329286&query_hl=42&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Effects of icariin on intracavernosal pressure and systematic arterial blood pressure of rat.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=14990132&query_hl=42&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Effects of icariin on cGMP-specific PDE5 and cAMP-specific PDE4 activities.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12646997&query_hl=42&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Experimental studies of icariin on anticancer mechanism.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12575282&query_hl=42&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Influence of icariin on cell membrane of highly metastatic human lung tumor cell line.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12575062&query_hl=42&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Icariin-mediated expression of cardiac genes and modulation of nitric oxide signaling pathway during differentiation of mouse embryonic stem cells into cardiomyocytes in vitro.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16490167&query_hl=42&itool=pubmed_docsum

Antihepatotoxic activity of icariin, a major constituent of Epimedium koreanum.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=8824946&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Effects of icariin on the differentiation of HL-60 cells.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=10743057&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Efficacy of epimedium compound pills in the treatment of the aged patients with kidney deficiency syndrome of ischemic cardio-cerebral vascular diseases.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=10682558&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Advances in study on pharmacological effects of Epimedium.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12528515&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Experimental study on effect of epimedium flavonoids in protecting telomere length of senescence cells HU.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15658653&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Osteoblastic proliferative activity of Epimedium brevicornum Maxim.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15830840&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Inhibitory effect of Epimedium extract on S-adenosyl-L-homocysteine hydrolase and biomethylation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16125732&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

Influence of a Chinese crude drug on Ca2+ influx and efflux in rat visceral organs: investigation and evaluation by 45Ca.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16253508&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

And this really is just a short list ... the studies are endless ... anybody find anything interesting here?

- George

Fascinating stuff, George.

I can verify already that it improves nighttime and AM erections. No idea if it will help my Peyronies Disease though.

The osteoblastic activity is a bit worrying - do we really need new bone formation help?? Actually, i am too ignorant of bone formation to know if calcifications are due to the same mechanisms, but it is worrisome, as I think that osteoblastic activity is seen by Peyronies Disease derived cells.

Tim

I seem to be losing more posts...obvously rookie errors hard at work.  

Anyway, for those who want to know a homeopath's suggestions for ED, our physician suggests L-Arginine 1000 bid, pycnogenal 30-50 qd and chrysin 500mg qd. Actually is was my idea to use the combo of L-Arginine and pycnogenal and he strongly agreed.

Well, Tim, I just put it all out there, the good, the bad, the ugly, as they say.  Actually, I am not sure that calcifications qualify as being 'bone'.  I rather suspect that they are the result of calcium collecting in the soft tissues and that horny goat weed might actually cause them to be drawn back into the actual bone tissue where the body is supposed to store its calcium.  At least we can hope that to be the case.

- George

"Anyway, for those who want to know a homeopath's suggestions for ED, our physician suggests L-Arginine 1000 bid, pycnogenal 30-50 qd and chrysin 500mg qd. Actually is was my idea to use the combo of L-Arginine and pycnogenal and he strongly agreed."

What is pycongenal and chrysin, never heard them mentioned before for peyroines or ED treatment.

ComeBackid

ComeBackid,

Pycnogenol..not pycnogenal...sorry, is known to increase NO production and we already know L-Arginine is an NO doner. Pycnogenol is a bioflvinoid, has cox-1 and cox 2 inhibitory effects which mean it aids in reducing inflamation. It's also known to aid in wound healing and potentially reduces scar formation. Entrez PubMed has quite a few good abstract articles on the substance found in the bark of a particular tree. Supposedly it has many uses from preventing blood clots to healing burns and asthma to treating ADHD.  
FFmedic's best half, Swim

ComeBackid, I bought the Vaso at GNC. It has Tri-Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate, Tri-Arginine Malate, Citrulline-Malate, (3000mg)Also,L-Valine, L-Norvaline and Ornithine Alpha-Ketoglutarate 100mg,  Creatine and other little goodies. I NEVER said it had ACL. Bought that seperate. I don't know the difference between the Tri and L-Arginine, and perhaps I should have researched more on that subject and I always would encourage anyone to formulate their own opinion and do their own research.I asked Rico personally what he might suggest in this area and he graciously offered the options.(Maybe I do have a Monkey see Monkey do mentality) . I guess I will make a( I am not in anyway advocating the use of these supplements, nor am I affiliated in anyway with GNC) note here.Just simply trying to purchase what I feel are quality ingredients at a better cost savings. Again, my own personal opinion. Oops --the glass is starting to crack---
Ziggy with the Twiggy

ComeBackid,
You also asked about Chrysin. Chrysin is a flavonoid. Besides being a powerful antioxidant it helps block the conversion of testosterone to estrogens, especially estrodiol. Estrodiol when high contributes to ED. Chrysin is also used to increase the release of, not production of, NO. There is no evidence supporting the claims that Chrysin will increase testosterone in humans but the wide use of it by athletes leads me to think some people believe it will. What I can say is that Paul's estrodiol went from 57 to 26 in about 7 months time. How much of that is from adding Chrysin is not real clear. It was 57 in January, 34 in May and 26 in July...so something reduced his estrodiol to normal. DIM wasn't doing it and the only thing new we added was the Chrysin.  Swim

Holy Smokes George,  That'll keep me busy for a while.  

THANKS a ton!

Liam

Thanks for the "Short" List of studies George. I'll let ladylisa read them then explain them to me while I'm watching football this weekend.
OOOps! Just kidding LL.
Henry and the boys were speaking.(Inside Joke)

Its truly amazing the claims that are made by supplement vendors for products like ginseng.  Its also truly amazing the lengths that some traditional medicine folks go to in trying to prove it to be totally useless.  But there is a bit of good scientific evidence behind Korean Red Ginseng.  Here is an interesting link:

http://www.uspharmacist.com/oldformat.asp?url=newlook/files/alte/ginko.htm

There are some good pubmed links as well, I'll let you search them out for now, but I thought this page had a lot of useful info.  (I haven't figured out why the link contains the term "ginko"  

GINseng  KOrean

Did I win?

My Nitrix came in.  I was like "The Jerk" when the new phone book arrived.

The caplet is smaller than the GNC L-arginine but the same dose.  It has sour citrus taste probably due to other ingrediants.  Does Folic acid have a taste?

Interesting study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8750052&dopt=Abstract


PS - Liam wins first prize for sorting out the ginko anagram!

OK, I'm going back on the Korean Red Ginseng.  I was taking the "Prince of Peace" brand vials with little straws.  I'm going to look for a better delivery system now.

This is the study I was referring to that compared trazadone to red ginseng. Here is the comment that caught my eye: "However in the group receiving ginseng, changes in early detumescence...  were different compared to the other groups. " IOW, the deflation part took longer to happen, and that was related to nocturnal erections, not stimulated ones.

Since that effect is what Trazadone does (delays the drainage that IS detumescence), it makes me wonder if red ginseng operates through the same mechanisms (alpha blockade).

Tim

I came across something that claims there is a  cure for Peyronies Disease using traditional Chinese medicine:

http://www.highbeam.com/library/docFree.asp?DOCID=1G1:125834324

Has anyone tried this route?

Percival

Peyronie's disease, varicocele & male sterility, and increasing sperm motility with Chinese medicine.(Chinese Medicine Update)

       Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients; 12/1/2004; Flaws, Bob


Keywords: Chinese medicine, Chinese herbal medicine, Peyronie's disease, varicocele, male sterility, sperm motility
**********
Peyronie's disease
Peyronie's disease refers to fibrosis of the cavernous sheath of the penis leading to contracture of the investing fascia of the corpora of the penis resulting in deviated and painful erection. In Western medicine, the cause of this condition is unknown. It occurs in adult men and may prevent intromission. It is rarely seen in those under 20 years of age. It is a slow and gradually developing disease. If the fibrosis extends into the corpus cavernosum, it may compromise tumescence distally. Fortunately for some, resolution of this condition may occur spontaneously over a period of many months, and minor Peyronie's disease which does not cause sexual dysfunction does not typically warrant treatment by Western medicine. Such treatment primarily consists of surgical removal of the fibrosis and replacement with a path graft. Unfortunately, treatment results are unpredictable and surgery may result in further scarring and exaggeration of the condition. Local injections of verapamil or high-potency corticosteroids may also be effective. Orally administered corticosteroids are not. In some cases, a prosthesis may have to be inserted to assist potency. Since Western medicine's treatment of this condition is not entirely satisfactory, alternative treatments, and especially nonsurgical treatments, are desired by many sufferers of this frustrating and embarassing disease. Recently, Zhang Bao-xing and Zhang Hai published an article on the Chinese medical treatment of Peyronie's disease. Titled, "The Treatment of 30 Cases of Penile Sclerosis & Nodulation with Chu Jie Tang (Eliminate Nodulation Decoction)," this article appeared in Shan Xi Zhong Yi (Shanxi Chinese Medicine), #4, 2001, on page 43.
[ILLUSTRATION OMITTED]
Cohort description:
All 30 cases included in this study were seen as out-patients at a hospital attached to the Henan College of Chinese Medicine. Three of the men were between 20-30, six were 31-40, 12 were 41-50, and nine were 50-60 years old. Ten cases had had this condition for one year or less, 12 cases had had it 1-2 years, and eight cases had had it for three years or more. All the patients met the diagnostic criteria appearing on page 227 in Nan Xing Sheng Zhi Su Wai Ke (External Medicine for the Male Reproductive System) published by the People's Health & Hygiene Publishing Co. in Beijing in 1989. These criteria were the same as the Western medical description given above.
Treatment method:
In order to dispel dampness and eliminated phlegm, transform stasis and soften the hard, and rectify the qi and free the flow of the network vessels, the following medicinals were administered: Pericarpium Citri Reticulatae (Chen Pi), 12g, Rhizoma Pineliae Ternatae (Ban Xia), 10g, Sclerotium Poriae Cocos (Fu Ling), 12g, Rhizoma Curcumae Zedoariae (E Zhu), 15g, Rhizoma Sparganii (San Leng), 15g, Spica Prunellae Vulgaris (Xia Ku Cao), 20g, Semen Sinapis Albae (Bai Jie Zi), 15g, Bulbus Fritillariae Thunbergii (Zhe Bei Mu), 12g, processed Resina Olibani (Ru Xiang), 10g, processed Resina Myrrhae (Mo Yao), 10g, Fructus Meliae Toosendanis (Chuan Lian Zi), 12g, Radix Bupleuri (Chai Hu), 10g, Radix Achyranthis Bidentatae (Niu Xi), 12g, Rhizoma Atractylodis Macrocephalae (Bai Zhu), 10g, Fasciculus Vascularis Luffae Cylindricae (Si Gua Luo), 15g, and Herba Ranunculi Ternati (Mao Zhao Cao), 20g. (1) One ji of these medicinals was decocted in water and administered orally per day, with one month equaling one course of treatment and three continuous courses being given. During this time, patients were forbidden to eat acrid, peppery, sweet, and fatty foods. They were counseled to keep a smooth and easy affect and to keep their sexual activity suitable. No further explanation of "suitable" is given by the Chinese authors of this study. However, sexual activity was not prohibited during therapy.
Treatment outcomes:
Cure was defined as disappearance of sclerosis and nodulation, no curvature of the penis during erection, and no aching or pain. Marked effect was defined as partial softening and lessening of penile sclerosis and nodulation, improvement in any aching and pain, and curvature of the penis during erection. Based on these criteria, 23 cases were cured and seven got a marked effect. Thus the total amelioration rate was 100%.
Discussion:
According to Zhang and Zhang, this disease is associated with the three channels of the liver, spleen, and kidney. If the patient's emotions are unfulfilled, the liver may become depressed and the qi stagnant. Thus the movement of the blood loses its smooth and easy flow and there is qi stagnation and blood stasis in the yin organ. If sexual desire is without limit, this may damage and consume kidney essence, resulting in yin vacuity and the movement of the blood becoming slow and relaxed. This may also cause blood stasis in the yin organ. A predilection for eating fatty, sweet foods and drinking too much alcohol may cause detriment and damage to the spleen and stomach, brewing and engendering phlegm and dampness. If this phlegm and dampness pour downward, they may congeal and bind in the yin organ.
Based on these disease causes and mechanisms, Zhang and Zhang believe that the appropriate treatment principles for dealing with this condition are to dispel dampness and eliminate phlegm, rectify the qi and free the flow of the network vessels, and transform stasis and soften the hard. Within this formula, Chen Pi, Ban Xia, Fu Ling, Bai Jie Zi, Zhe Bei Mu, and Bai Zhu fortify the spleen, dispel dampness, and transform phlegm. San Leng, E Zhu, Xia Ku Cao, Mao Zhao Cao, Ru Xiang, and Mo Yao quicken the blood and transform stasis, soften the hard and scatter nodulation. rm Chuan Lian Zi, Chai Hu, and Si Gua Luo course the liver, rectify the qi, and free the flow of the network vessels, while Niu Xi guides the other medicinals in this formula to move downward to the reproductive organs. Because these medicinals and these disease mechanisms are in accord, the treatment effects were completely satisfactory.

Also found this from the new posted answers from Dr. Levine.

B. I first noticed my symptoms only about 3 months ago (painful erections, hard nodule under the skin when flaccid) and am currently in the "active" phase of the disease.  Is there anything I should or should not be doing during this phase in order to minimize the eventual resulting curvature?  It's only slightly noticeable (approx. 5-10%) and I'd like it to stay that way.

     It's true that you are currently in the active phase.  Contemporary natural history studies have suggested that during the "active" phase, 50% of patients will have worsening of their deformity, around 40% will stay the same and less than 10% will have spontaneous resolution of curvature.  Therefore, you are at risk to have progression of your Peyronie's, but given that it is so slight at this time, it may not progress.  Avoiding vigorous gymnastics during sexual activity would be beneficial as well as avoiding female on top/ "rodeo sex" where the pressures on the penis can be quite substantial and may further activate the scarring process.  It is reasonable to continue sexual activity, but just be careful.  For men who have mild deformity and no significant pain but are interested in doing something short of injection therapy or iontophoresis, I have recommended the combination of pentoxifylline 400 mg two times a day which is a generic prescription drug, and L-arginine 500 mg two times per day.  It is reasonable to continue on this treatment for three months.  This therapy is best prescribed by a urologist who will provide an initial evaluation and then will be able to track your progress over time.

It appears that we are on the right track with L Arginine to, I'm going to look into adding Pentox into my regimen assuming its not to expensive.

Here is what is on that concoction. I make no bones about it - I do not know what to make of Chinese traditional medicines theories of the body. I accept that I do not understand it or believe it, but that they also have thousands of years of trial and error in their medicinal therapies, and we would be fools to ignore that. Nevertheless, all the usual caveats apply. This was not blinded or controlled and there were no longterm outcomes. It has not been replicated for over 17 years at any other institution (that I could find).

Pericarpium Citri Reticulatae (Chen Pi), 12g, - Dried Tangerine Peel
Rhizoma Pineliae Ternatae (Ban Xia), 10g, - Pinellia tuber
Sclerotium Poriae Cocos (Fu Ling), 12g, - "Indian Bread"
Rhizoma Curcumae Zedoariae (E Zhu), 15g, - Zedoary
Rhizoma Sparganii (San Leng), 15g, -  Common Burreed Rhizome
Spica Prunellae Vulgaris (Xia Ku Cao), 20g, - Common Selfheal Fruit-Spike ?
Semen Sinapis Albae (Bai Jie Zi), 15g, - White Mustard Seed
Bulbus Fritillariae Thunbergii (Zhe Bei Mu), 12g, -  Thunberg Fritillary Bulb
processed Resina Olibani (Ru Xiang), 10g, - ? Olibanum (Frankincense?
processed Resina Myrrhae (Mo Yao), 10g, - ?  Myrrh ?
Fructus Meliae Toosendanis (Chuan Lian Zi), 12g, - Szechwan Chinaberry Fruit
Radix Bupleuri (Chai Hu), 10g, - Chinese Thorowax Root
Radix Achyranthis Bidentatae (Niu Xi), 12g, - Twotoothed Achyranthes Root
Rhizoma Atractylodis Macrocephalae (Bai Zhu), 10g, - Atractylodes Rhizome
Fasciculus Vascularis Luffae Cylindricae (Si Gua Luo), 15g, - Retinervus Luffae Fructus
(Luffa?? - as in the things you scrub with!)
Herba Ranunculi Ternati (Mao Zhao Cao), 20g. -  Poisonous Buttercup Herb

The reference "(1)" has an appended explanation that makes sense only of the last listed
ingredient:

1. This medicinal is sweet, acrid, and warm and enters the liver and lung channels. It treats
scrofula, subcutaneous nodulations, pulmonary tuberculosis, and malaria-like disease. When
taken internally as in decoction, its dose is 0.5-1 liang. It is classified as a heat-clearing
medicinal. This medicinal's common English name is Cat's Claw, and it is a species of buttercup.
In the US, it is available from both Mayway Corp. and Nuherbs Co.

::sigh:: so close yet so far...

Tim
Thanks for that break-down of the concoction. I too am very sceptical about such claims, but we should leave no stone unturned in our search. There may be a clue amongst that long recipe!
It is interesting to hear that the Chinese also suffer from Peyronies Disease - which, we are told is more common in men of North European descent.
Percival

ComeBackid,

From reading between the lines on your post with pentox and arginine and other information...the pentox and other hard drugs like potaba, these are suggested in the early phases, once the fibrosis is completed or scar form(later stages), what is the benefit of these drugs? They don't remove scar tissue....
I think we have to understand the drugs are prescribed for ones phase of the diesease...this person asked in that particular post that he was in the early phase(inflammatory), and wanted to limited the condition....from you post, you seem stable....
I choose not to take the drugs in the early phase(which I'm still in four months), do to the fact that the general attitude is, Well if you want to do something, then you could TRY this.....My urologist had been dealing with peyronies for twenty years and had tried the verapamil injections(told me it was a hassle for the results he saw), suggested, once again if I wanted to try something, do the potaba and topical verapamil, he said at least I wouldn't have to get the shots, which are painfull and not good results....
I feel for everyone of my brothers with this crap and I know we all are looking for hope...but before you take a hard drug like pentox, look at the phase of your condition and ask yourself, will this remove scar tissue? and if it does, will it replace the excising tissue(tunica) with elastic tissue? Taking a arginine supplement is like vit e, this is more of a holistic approach and won't do you more harm than good....I don't believe that a man with peyronies that had it for over a year went to see the good doctors that they would say pentox if you were stable.....
My thoughts on the needling technique in conjunction with VED, I know when I was in the Navy in 1972 we still did some of the butchering of meat, it finally got phase out for pre cut meat, but we still did some of the tenderizing of beef, we had this one machine that had hundreds on needles and we would punch the meat, the tough connective tissue would then become soft and was easy for the men to eat...tenderize it....there were tenderizer you could put on, but the mechanical method was superior to breaking it up...
if you do perforate a area, it will stretch easier, needling it.....the problem with are scar though is that there is a layer of nerves, blood vessels, tissue between the top layer and skin and tunica, so you have to go through this to get to the scar tissue...
My point on this verapamil injections along with a mechanical approach of VED is becoming the way with peyronies, but is it really two mechanical approaches that is working, the needling of the plaque along with the st recthings.....physical therapy!  
Mick stated he didn't want to do anything with his VED so he could tell if it was the VED that made the difference...which I thank him for...because I would be happy with his results myself, and he found this in two months, but he did follow the Old Man and was consistence in the regime....no pills, or creams...
I read a article and I didn't save it in my favorites, but I'm sure some of the old timers on here have read it also, but the doctor broke up the plaque, sort of needle technique, I think he cut three stripes in it for it to expand and need get results for better function, but once again they addressed the dealing with nerves and blood vessels ect....same problems with the injections.....remember what is feels like when a dentist hits a nerve....why do you think some people say one shot isn't as bad as another..hit a nerve!  OUCH!  
Remember also, pentox was his second choice to Verapamil...he did say don't waste your money on topical....
They have this devise for people with scar tissue on there face, it looks like a roller with many little needles on it, they puntcure the scar and massage it smooth.....buy they don't have to worry about the nerves because it lays on the surface...
I know DR. HO's massage works, I have used it, it uses electrical impulse to make your muscles twitch, it is very powerful, I tried it on my penis, but the pads where to big, and I couldn't get it to work...
But it works with scar tissue on other parts of the body...
My point on this is that the IONH, is it the electric current that shows some results with some people? some say they use saline....same results as verapamil?
AA4500.....I'm not even going to go here:).....I will say, I won't buy this stock and leave it at that....

Everyone have a Bless Day!  I'm going for a run......

Rico

Pentox serves to block the production and release of TGF beta-1. That in turn signals a huge cascade of events that culminate in placque formation - perhaps. It is clearly implicated in rat models, and in those models pentox prevents disease, and can partially ameliorate present disease.

It is important to remember that the body is not static. A scar is not a bunch of cells that never change - even bone is not like that. Rather, a placque is an active tissue, that often worsens - for many of us in repeated small incremental worsenings that we can see but are not so apparent. But aftera few years, you are worse.

The literature written by the scientists who have done the studies are quite clear. This should prevent fibrotic processes, and it should also promote healing of already fibrotic processes. To quote Gonzalez-Cadavid: "Some peyronie's disease plaques are biochemically dynamic and undergo turnover."

It is absolutely vital that we do not oversimplify this problem - it is neither emotionally or biochemically simple. Here are two figures that suggest pathways that are supported by the research literature:

*****************

Figure 1.  Normal wound healing following trauma or microtrauma to the penis does not lead to scar formation or fibrosis.  In a simplified view of a complex process, fibrin deposits and other factors attract macrophages and, via release and activation of cytokines (mainly transforming-growth-factor beta1) induce fibroblasts to differentiate into myofibroblasts. Both cell types actively synthesize collagen and other extracellular matrix components. Myofibroblasts also facilitate closing of the wound, before being degraded via apoptosis; fibrin is removed by fibrinolysis. In the Peyronie's disease plaque, inhibition of fibrinolysis by plasminogen activator inhibitor-1, release of transforming-growth-factor beta1, myofibroblast differentiation with reduced apoptosis, and accumulation of matrix metalloproteinase inhibitors (plasminogen activator inhibitor-1 and tissue inhibitors of matrix metalloproteinases) lead to excessive collagen deposition and disorganization (fibrosis) and abnormal healing (scar). Fibroblasts also contribute to collagen deposition. Arrows indicate stimulation or increase; bars indicate inhibition or decrease. MMPs, matrix metalloproteinases; PAI-1, plasminogen activator inhibitor 1; TGF-beta1, transforming-growth-factor beta1.


Figure 2.  Peyronie's disease plaques result from dynamic interplay between profibrotic and antifibrotic factors in cells such as fibroblasts and myofibroblasts of the tunica albuginea .  One of the antifibrotic mechanisms in the Peyronie's disease plaque is increased levels of nitric oxide and cyclic GMP resulting from sustained expression of inducible nitric oxide synthase. Fibrosis in smooth muscle of the corpora cavernosa and in penile arteries may be associated with aging and diabetes, contributing to corporal veno-occlusive dysfunction. Corporal fibrosis, like tunical fibrosis, seems to be counteracted by inducible nitric oxide synthase. Arrows indicate stimulation or increase; bars indicate inhibition or decrease. cGMP, cyclic GMP; iNOS, inducible nitric oxide synthase; MCP-1, monocyte chemoattractant protein 1; MMP, matrix metalloproteinase; nNOS, neuronal nitric oxide synthase; NO, nitric oxide; Peyronies Disease, Peyronie's disease; TGF-beta1, transforming-growth-factor beta1.

Tim,

We as we know have different conditions of this diesease. The "A" typical is a scar in the tunica, are more complex condition is where it also has a more invasion of the scarring process into the underlying vascular tissue..hence the elastic function of the entire tunica can be involved....this is a small percentage of peyronies cases...but also needs to be addressed.....

Location of plaque is also a consideration for each of us to take in consideration...

It is pr oven that nitric oxide will keep the plaque at bay and help in wound healing....

One can take ginseng, trazodone, Viagra, and many other supplements to get this effect...

The bottom line is that by increasing oxygen to the area you will stop fibrosis or curtail it and also promote wound healing...

I see you don't take arginine? But choose mace and ginseng....

arginine complex(ornithine) and glutamine complex is proven to heal tissue and provide oxygen to tissue....

If one has a underlying vascular tissue problem then this is the method I would use and also with a "A" typical problem along with a mechanical method(VED), and from my experience with scar tissue, the slow approach(OLD MAN) (Spivey) makes the most sense to me...

Before I took some medicine like potaba or pentox, I would take more arginine, but even more a more complex amino supplement that en chances wound recovery....I believe this is L-arginine hci, arginine alpha ketoglutarate, Ornithine alpha ketoglutarate, arginine ketoisokaproate, l-glutamine, l-glutamine alphan ketoglutarate N-acetyl L glutamine and l-taurine, along with ALC.....

these are more natural and your body will respond better to them, you will get great nox to your wound area....

The FDA cannot stop amino acids, because they are natural food supplements that are made to heal the body...no prescriptson needed, lots of research behind them also.....arginine in my opinion is the best thing one can take for peyronies as of now, and I believe you need to take a more complex one like I listed....glutamine combine is so important for wound healing and ornithine will help the arginine do what it needs to....

It is funny when I read the new on the market products for ED and the first and most prominent ingredient is arginine in a complex format as I listed....

This products are made in a lab also, think when you are taking some herb from overseas, what are you getting...maca, ginseng, who knows how the processing is....I will go with products from companies like Xyience myself, state of the art..... I'm buying tomorrow there nox extreme formula, which is arginine complex....I also love there nox3...I believe in glutamine for wound healing and soon as I take it with the arginine mix, and if my mind wandering like most men:), I get some strong wood!, opens blood vessels.....which curtails fibrosis....

Take care and God Bless....

Rico

Dr. Levine states that viagra has NO which can act as an anti fibrotic, does L Arginine contain this as well?  Does Pentox contain the NO?  Is this the secret ingredient to have the anti fibrotic effect in peyronies disease?

Comebackid,

This is what I'm saying, the nox is the ingredient, why not take arginine which is more natural.....I do believe you can enhance this if you read my last post by adding a more complex arginine along with the other aminos, please re read the post...

Doctors are like traffic cops, you have to write so many tickets to keep you job, cops write tickets, doctors write prescriptsons, you don't need a prescript on for arginine, so the add on is pentox....which is redundant...now once again, I always believe one should go to a doctor/urologist, and weigh out what he has to say, early conditions ect...but ask him and look him in the eye and say, would I get the same effects from arginine?? Most of these guys are honest if you seem like you know what you are talking about, mine wouldn't piss on my back and tell me it is raining, he does what I tell him, write me this and he does it....I use him for the prescriptsons, although the only one I wanted was for VED, I can get the arginine and alc ect...at GNC....Nitric Oxide is the same...period....I see people get on high blood pills, they now are a customer for life, don't sell the razor, give it away, sell the blades, it is a consumable product and you have a customer for life, this is a business, just look at there billing, state of the art...
ComeBackid I worry about you and all the pills ect you are taking at once, keep is more simple, pick one that give you NO and then stop....you also sound like you might have a vascular underlying problem and the complex I stated in my other post might address this....
I everyone to know that I'm not against doctors, but I don't believe they are going to come to our forum with open arms, Levine has his own plan, so does Lue, I read about Lue and his study with Pentox since 2002, and I'm not impress at all, take a double douse of arginine, oh that is right, no prescriptson, no prescriptson, no money...got to feed the beast, and the medical community is a huge beast with a large appetite, and part of this is because of our litigious society we live in. I would hate to be a doctor, your liability insurance drives you to be income producing machine to stay in business, this can alter your thinking....more drugs....or maybe I strike up a deal with a traction devise....kids need new shoes.....I called my urologist the over day, the nurse said, you know this call will be charge, I said, tell him it is Rico, you know what, no charge, why, because he was taking notes, not me....he fax me the same day my prescriptson for my VED and thank me for the arginine mix blend and alc advise he could pass on to his other clients....I'm sure there is a point when you have been putting people on potaba and verapamil for years and there is no results you are just looking for something to get these clients something....I wouldn't be surprise if there is a new drug that will come out and if you break it down it will be a amino complex....but like verapamil a 600% mark up....

Rico

Rico,

The understanding I get according to Tim is that Pentox is for any phase of peyronies, possibly stopping further development and loss of elasticity as well as breaking down an already existing plaque.  So your saying that L Arginine and Pentox are the same thing exactly?  How can this be one is a supplement and one you need a prescription for.  I don't doubt that L Arginine has NO.

Right now I"m not really on many pills just ALC, trazodone and L Arginine, thats it, I don't take viagra.

I'm wondering if its safe to take

ALC
L Arginine
Pentox
trazodone or viagra or both

If L Arginine, Pentox, and viagra all contain NO how much do you really need?  And does Pentox have other properties besides just NO that will help prevent progression and help break down existing plaque?

Rico,

You do raise a good point on the fact that doctors write tickets.  I used to see a doctor for acne went there for years and tried tons of medicines, many office visits.  Then when accutane came out I took it and my acne went away totally, guess what never had to go back to see the dermatologist, he just lost a customer.

ComeBackid

ComeBackid,

I didn't say that pentox was the same as arginine, arginine has nox which seems to curtail fibrosis....I have read  that you should talk to your doctor if you are on ED meds and are going to supplement with arginine....I think you should talk to your doctor, especially if you have medical problems before you start any program. I go in for a check up every two years....prostate check, blood pressure ect....

My thoughts are not to take several nox products at once, maca, ginseng, arginine, trasdone ect...Pick one....I choose the arginine mix, this would be my first choice...I'm not going to list the amino acids again, they are in my other post...I feel this is the best out there for wound healing and Nitric Oxide.....

I don't know how someone could function or heal on so many different drugs....at two months my curve was getting worse, so was hour glass, I threw away the verapamil, and hit the epsom salt baths, went on a anti inflammatory diet and started taking the arginine mix, I went stable in two weeks, I have went down now 5 degrees in my curve and penis looks healthy....they wanted me to go on potaba...no way!! How can one heal if he has stomach problems and is in the bathroom all day...No thanks..

Remember Levine said that if you don't want to do IONO, then I would do Pentox, if you wanted to try something, does that sound positive to you? IONO is his first choice, what do you think of that, you just did it, so I ask you, why would you consider his second choice?

Lue puts one guy on it, remember this person is very young, living at home, probally eighteen, they believe that at this age, these drugs work better in the early stages....plus maybe he couldn't travel ect....my point is this post comes on and everyone starts screaming Pentox! It looks promising......Is it?  The research on it is full of holes.....I would take it if I thought it had a 30% chance of working....

I'm not trying to influence anyones decision on his treatment, I just wouldn't feel if I didn't answer in a honest way that I feel I could post my comments....this forum is a great place to gather information, just like the internet, but remember believe very little you read and half what you see:).....and these blind studies ect....they don't talk about there diet ect...remember most diesease comes from inflammation, stop this first, this can be done with diet and alc and aginine and epsom salt baths and plenty of water....next heal the wound and remold it.....the blood is also the carrier of most disease.oxygen, Nitric oxide, circulation cleans the blood...once again arginine is a amino acid that your body makes from food source, or you can supplement with a high grade designer one, state of the art with the research behind it....once again, read my other post....

Rico

Just for clarification.  There is no N O (nitric oxide) in any of these.  They work in different ways to increase N O.   L-arginine is a precursor of N O.  Viagra is a PDE5 inhibitor.

http://www.wiley.com/legacy/college/boyer/0470003790/cutting_edge/viagra/viagra.htm

Pentoxifylline is also a PDE inhibitor.

Search this site.  Tim had a great explanation of these somewhere.


Liam

I was just about to jump in and make this very same point.  NOx is only generated AS NEEDED within the body and is extremely transient.  In other words, it is used up as fast as it is generated.  PDE-5 inhibits this process.  Viagra, Levitra, Cialis, Horny Goat Weed, Korean Red Ginseng  (Correction by George as of 10-06-06 -> While Korean Red Ginseng has been shown to have an apparent positive effect on NOS, it is not a known PDE-5 inhibitor.) , and a host of other substances inhibit PDE-5 which then facilitates NOx production on an as needed basis.  Various forms of Arginine simply provide additional available fuel for that process in the form of serum nitrogen, with some forms claiming better delivery and NOx formation stimulation than others.

The other factor involved, inflammation, is ALSO mediated by a PDE, PDE-4.  I am absolutely convinced that the root of the whole scar tissue problem is centered on the malfunctioning of these two substances.  Tim previously mentioned PAI-1 as being part of the whole mix.  I am convinced that he is right on the money on that one as well.  And to that I would add that anyone with salt sensitive hypertension is going to have a PAI-1 problem since salt sensitive hypertension is caused by excessive aldosterone which inhibits the breakdown of PAI-1, thus adding to the problem of fibrosis.  I suffer from that problem and that is the number one reason I am taking some Neprinol, since I am hopeful that Neprinol is capable of eliminating some of that PAI-1 overload.  I am also hopeful that my doctor will grant my request for Inspra, a drug which inhibits aldosterone, so that I can get off of the Neprinol and not have to worry about the PAI-1 situation.

Liam,

Yes the brand or mix I listed will "boost" nitric oxide,  get oxygen to your muscles, vacillate your veins. I was talking more about the effect, which I believe is what we are looking for....I read a article that said they don't even know how pentox works?

Rico....

I have really been impressed on what I have been reading on Korean Red Ginseng and have now cut my intake of Horny Goat Weed in half and adding Korean Red Ginseng.  I take both of these along with maca and Arginine AKG (whatever that is).  This combination seems to be working better than the Horny Goat Weed alone, at least on my blood pressure which is easier to measure than my peyronies.  What is also encouraging is that the old scar on my finger is getting noticibly softer which reinforces my impression that I am heading in the right direction.

I am also impressed by what I have heard about Thai Mangosteen in terms of its ability to wipe out inflammation and lower blood pressure dramatically.  It is also known for dramatically reducing levels of NOx.  But what I am wondering is if it is actually reducing free NOx by increasing tissue uptake of NOx.  That could be very interesting.  So I am going to be looking closer at it.  I have actually purchased some, will give it a shot and report back on any positive or negative effect on the peyronies.

My best to all of you!

George,

I do think there a different degrees of scars.....and arginine does give more short term boost of NO, this is why you take it before a workout, and Viagra, I think will last for four hours....I break up my arginine or mix I take over a couple times a day...

For myself and most cases from what I have read on peyronies is that the "A" typical condition is a scar....not some rare cray diesease gone wild....know in some cases when the whole tunica is affected, which is rare, then maybe as Levine says, a different form of peyronies...we all get thrown in the same boat...

As far as PDE, PDE-4, PAI-1, I respect your thoughts, but I think you are over thinking this "A" typical condition of peyronies...it is a scar, your body when it has a injury repairs it this way, if it was anywhere but on the tunica which needs to keep it elasticity this wouldn't even be a topic....it isn't your body going hay wired....it is just some scar tissue in a bad spot....a Natural way for the body to heal a wound, once again and as they say in retail....location is everything!  Put this 3cm scar on your ass and your wouldn't even know it is there.....

Rico