Hawk, you are making some very valid points here and as you have perhaps already noted, I have modified my original post.  I still do think that fruit is a healthier alternative, but I realize that in some situations, fruit alone won't do the job.  I have long believed that sweeteners stimulate hunger, but, in fact, the studies available indicate exactly the opposite, but they also indicate that sweeteners contribute nothing to satiating hunger, and perhaps that is the message that needs to be sent.  But thanks for setting me straight on this, and don't hesitate to remind me again if I backslide .  - George

"Artificial Sweeteners May Trick the Brain

"In the study, published in the July issue of the International Journal of Obesity, two groups of rats were fed either a mix of high-calorie, sugar-sweetened, and low-calorie, artificially sweetened liquids; or sugar-sweetened liquids alone. This was fed to the rats in addition their regular diet. After 10 days, they were offered a high-calorie, chocolate-flavored snack.

"The study showed that rats fed the mixed liquids ate more of their regular chow after the sweet snack than those who had been fed sugar-sweetened liquids alone.

"Researchers say the results show that the experience of drinking artificially sweetened, low-calorie liquids had damaged the rats' natural ability to compensate for the calories in the snack. "

I guess the moral to that study would be:  If you have no more accountability over the quantity of food you eat than a rat (albeit rather sophisticated rats), then you should eat sugar rather than artificial sweeteners.

Are there any studies on natural sweeteners such as stevia with a little higher life form, say like maybe urologists?  

I'll take splenda and manuka honey any time over stevia  

the only reason I bought it is because I heard that it can lower blood glucose levels. However I'm not sure about this.

What I do know is that in my own case, eliminating the sweeteners has certainly seemed to diminish my hunger pangs over the long term.  I know that is highly subjective.  And I DO like sweeteners, but the perceived benefit of passing on them has just been too great for me to pass up.  And by the way, when it comes to hunger, the word is that a product called Simmondsin works quite well.  I haven't tried it yet, but I was seriously looking at it.  And it pays to seriously look at these things, because they have to potential of biting back.

QuoteImpact Statements
Simmondsin is presently being marketed on the Internet in weight loss products. As it is being
sold as a natural food product,it bypasses the strict regulations imposed on weight loss drugs. It
is still important to evaluate the safety of this compound since it is being sold as a supplement
to humans and being considered as an ingredient in several animal diets.This study set out to
confirm the ability of this compound to decrease food intake – producing a decrease in weight
gain – and to look for any toxic effects.The following goals were accomplished:
♦ The compound, simmondsin, produced a very effective, consistent decrease in food
intake in growing rats, resulting in a decrease in weight gain.
♦ It was also observed to produce a toxic effects in the rats, demonstrated by a decrease
in the level of blood components (red blood cells and hemoglobin), increased levels of
serum alkaline phosphatase, and an increase in organ weights.
♦ These results suggest this compound in not safe for human or animal consumption in
the doses fed in this study over the three-month period of time.
♦ Simmondsin is very effective in suppressing food intake.
♦ Simmondsin produces a toxic effect when fed in high doses over a three-month period.
♦ The mechanism of how simmondsin produces a decrease in food intake could be a
very useful model to study regulation of food intake.
♦ Products currently on the market containing simmondsin should be recalled due the
toxic effect of this compound until further studies understanding the mechanism are
conducted.

ari.calpoly.edu/images/46680%20Pedersen%20simmondsin.pdf

Yuch!  Have a great New Year everyone!  - George

Hi,
may I know what is Pentox and where can I get it?

Hi Jacqueslee,

Pentox is short for pentoxifylline which is the generic form of a prescription drug called Trental.

You can get this by a prescription from your dr.

Some of us here take other supplements like L-arginine as well as Vitamin E etc. Please look through the Oral treatment section for more info.

Actually the site is full of other usefull information. Please take the time to go through the posts and you will find a wealth of information. I know I benefited so much from the advice of the good people here.

Pal

The rat data was used by me to help understand the recent study that showed that those who drink diet pop are more likely to be obese than those who do not. This may be an epiphenomena (meaning related but not cause and effect), but the correlation was tight - the more diet soda the more overweight you are. Clearly something was altered in the "thermostat" for appetite (regulated by leptin and ghrelin, among others). I am lucky in that I cannot stand almost any artificial sweeteners (none so far taste acceptable to me).

The issue of adding sweets to it's effect on appetite is tough. Sweets generally add calories, hence the weight gain. But it may be more complicated than that, and it may have a positive effect on appetite.

Tim

OK, I know about Arginine's effect on NO, but what if I don't have an erection problem? Can L-Arginine do anything to correct my curve? I'm going online soon to order supplements and need to know before I put a lot of money into this stuff.

I think Arginine is still good to take for peyronie regardless. I think Tim posted a few studies on the effect of the PAV (Pentox, Arginine, Viagra) in reversing fibrosis. I could be wrong but someone else may chime in with their thoughts too.


Good Luck
Pal

I too have found Arginine to be somewhat helpful.  But right now, I am almost two weeks into a shift to an anti-glycation supplement stack.  At this point, I am pretty much convinced I am getting more traction out of that, than out of the previous approach.  I am currently taking as part of that stack:

L Carnosine - 500mg - 2XDaily
Acetyl L Carnitine - 500mg - 2XDaily
N Acetyl Cysteine - 600mg - 1XDaily
Benfotiamine - 150mg - 4XDaily

So am now in the process of scaling back things like Arginine, HGW, and OPCs and even Vitamin E.  When my current supply is finished, I will not be likely to reorder them.  What I am planning to do is add more anti-glycants and really pound on that vector:

Propionyl-L-Carnitine
Pyridoxamine
Pyruvate
Mangosteen

Also:

Banaba (drives down blood sugar - not for anyone who already has low blood sugar)

If this comes anywhere to doubling the effects of what I am already taking, I will be delighted.  - George

PS - The success of an anti-glycant supplement stack would in no way invalidate Pentox, since Pentox is a powerful anti-glycant.

I never knew Banaba and Mangosteen had anti-glycation effects. interesting  

Quote from: George999 on January 05, 2008, 01:32:06 PM
I too have found Arginine to be somewhat helpful.  But right now, I am almost two weeks into a shift to an anti-glycation supplement stack.  At this point, I am pretty much convinced I am getting more traction out of that, than out of the previous approach.  I am currently taking as part of that stack:

George,

What do you mean by this statement: "I am getting more traction out of that" with regards to your anti-glacantion pack? Are you saying that you already have experienced improvement in the short time you have been taking it. If so, what is the nature of the improvement?

Also, are you going to take both forms of L-Carnitine, and how many of the items in your list requires a prescription?

Hitman, Mangosteen contains garcinol which is a fairly potent anti-glycation factor.  Banaba is actually not directly associated with anti-glycation, but rather is a potent supplement in terms of driving down blood sugar to the point that there are warnings on it that it can induce acute hypoglycemia.  But lowering blood sugar levels (since mine have been quite high in recent years) should help me knock down glycation.  I would NOT recommend banaba to someone who already has blood sugar levels who are low, so thank you for bringing this up.

bodoo2u, What I mean is, it has noticeably and consistantly decreased the palpability of my plaques almost to the point that they are no longer perceptible.  I really like this effect since it indicates to me that it is actively killing the localized inflammation that is being generated by the Peyronies and is part of what fuels its advance.  I got a similar effect with the topical Camphor when I tried that, but was unable to continue with that because of the side effects I was getting with the camphor, but actually the effect of these supplements is probably at least doubly more potent than what I was getting from the camphor.  And I also believe I am seeing some "relaxation" of the bend.  (Over the past year I have developed a slight upward bend just shy of the glans right where one of the palpable plaques is located).  So while my Peyronies has been largely dormant since I had the nasty experience with the time where I increased my sugar intake and it really became aggressive, this new approach has seemingly resulted in actually causing it to regress some.  I know that everything is subjective when it comes to evaluating ones own Peyronies, but I am really convinced none the less that something is actually working here, and so I am determined to investigate it further by stacking as many of these things together as I can.  I have used several of them in the past, but I have never actually tried to leverage them by stacking them.  I am currently using ONLY the ALC form of Carnitine, but I am going to move to a "full spectrum" form that includes the other variants.  None of these products requires a prescription.  There are a handful of other anti-glycants such as Pentox itself that do require prescriptions.  The ONLY two substances that have generated any positive results so far against Peyronies in terms of research are Pentox and ALC, and just about the only thing that these two have in common IS that they are both anti-glycants.  The discovery of that fact is one of the things that has reinforced my determination to explore this approach.  - George

George,

Where are you buying all of these supplements and how did you determine dosages?

Thanks.

Guys, I'm seeing an Endocrinologist Wednesday because I found out I have low testosterone (235), which is probably behind my lack of nocturnal/spontaneous/morning erections, and the reason why I find Viagra to be a boost (I'd always attributed it to the distal softness as a result of Peyronies a few years ago, but now I think my problems with ED center around my testosterone.)  Ironically though, I think the low testosterone level is why I find Viagra to sometimes work better than others.

My question is, since I took that initial testosterone test a few months ago, I've been using L-Arginine (3g per day).  Does anyone know if the arginine is going to throw off my testosterone test results that the Endo will undoubtedly give me?  I don't want a higher reading than is actually the case if I were on my own.  Anyone know if the arginine will muck with a testosterone test?

Thanks,
Nemo

Nemo
Testestorone Replacement is seldom a cure for ED. It can cause lack of libido and other problems but take it from me it did not help ED. For good health get your T into the upper ranges of your labs. Mine fell to 120 and I now do 300 mg every 10 days. That helps libido, mental and physical health but not ED.
Go to a good urologist and be tested for venous leakage, peronies and BPH. Endos do not do these test.
Good luck, my peyronies lead to fibrosis in the corpora. My $.02 do not do penile injections if you have a history of peronies. Penile injections make the fibrous worse and lead to 100% ED.
Good luck let us know how you come out.
Jackp

I realize T replacement isn't a first line treatment for ED, but I'm talking about nocturnal/spontaneous/morning erections, which are heavily influenced by Testosterone.  My Uro has known about my Peyronie's for years and is the one who prescribes me the Viagra.  At any rate, a 36yr old with a 235 T score is not right.  My question, again, was whether L-Arginine affect my T score on a blood test?

california, All of these supplements are commonly available in the health food/nutritional outlets, both online and on the street.  In most cases I am currently going with the dosages on the containers, except for NAC where I am being a bit conservative.  I will probably be adjusting some of those dosages down a bit as I go along in order to try to avoid any potential side effects.  - George

Arginine will not affect your testosterone levels.

I disagree that testosterone will not help ED. For some men, it does. IT has been shown that for non-responders to Viagra, Testosterone can help. Conversely, adding Viagra to someone on testosterone can also help ED. So the combination has been shown to be of help in lots of men - and each alone has been found to be helpful to some.

Tim,,,i totally agree with you. When i was on testoserone replacement it helped me a great deal,,my energy level went way up,,,,My nocturnal erections came back to a degree and i felt really good over all..It didn't solve all my ED problems, but it sure helped and when i started taking viagra along with it, it was a lot better for me. The combination worked very good for me and i would highly recommend it to anyone....

Just my 2 cents worth.........Kimo

Thanks, gents.  I have mixed feelings about getting on Testosterone replacement - I am excited by the prospect that it can boost my energy and sense of wellbeing, not to mention libido and erectile function, but I'm scared of what it can do to the prostate (speeding the growth of any cancer cells that may exist) not to mention the risk of gynecomastia (man boobs).  Messing with hormones is scary stuff, but I'm ready to turn it over to an Endo and see what they think.  My Uro was totally dismissive saying, "You don't want to get on testosterone, you'll be on it the rest of your life."  But I know not getting nocturnals, etc. ain't right, and to me, this means my body needs to be put back in balance.  

My other concern is in the course of my life, dating back to high school, I've had a couple run ins with low grade prostate infection, causing the sensation that I have to pee.  It's not BPH, it's a non-bacterial infection they call it.  I'm dealing with one right now triggered by holding my pee too long on a road trip.  I hadn't had one in about 6 years, but the timing sucks as Testosterone replacement is known to increase the size of the prostate a little, and I hope the mild prostatitis I'm "enjoying" right now doesn't prevent me from getting on the treatment.  We'll see what the Endo says.  I'm sure she'll want to thoroughly investigate why my T is so low to begin with though before doing anything else.  

Nemo,,,,When i was on Testosterone replacement, i didn't get any boobs,,but it did give me a hairy chest which my wife had prayed for for many years,,,HA!

I kinda worried about the prostrate cancer thing since i had preveiously had a bad infection before going on the Testosterone, so what i did was go on SawPalmetto for a long time to help avoid getting another infection,,,NOW, i don't know if that helped,,but i never had another one and the doc said my prostrate gland was smaller than usual after taking the sawpalmetto for a couple of years....I feel that it really helped me, but thats just my opinion.

Another thing,,,i have never heard of being hooked on testosterone. I was on it for a few years but had to quit because i don't have ins anymore...I have been off of it now for about 3 yrs or so and i have been doing ok, YES,,my testosterone is low but i'm doing ok and when i can afford it i will go back on it again.

One thing that i did was that when on the testosterone i always had my PSA checked every 6 months and i kept track of each report in my records...

Hope this helps you in some way,,,,,,,,,,,,,kimo

Men are correct to have second thoughts about the use of testosterone because it can speed the growth of most prostrate cancer which is testosterone dependent. If I had significantly low testosterone levels however and I was symptomatic of low testosterone, I would consider it.  Before I did so I would have the more expensive PSA test that measure free PSA and I would have a digital exam by a good urologist. As Kimo says, I would repeat the PSA test every 6 months an keep close check not just on the reading but on the movement of the reading.

There are some pretty well accepted things one can do with diet and supplements to reduce the likelihood of prostate cancer.  Many of these preventative measures have been put under the scrutiny of clinical trials.  If any are interested just PM me since it is pretty off topic for this area.  If there is enough interest, I will post it under the "Off Topic" area.

Current standards of care mandate that an older man have his PSA checked prior to starting Testosterone replacement therapy. If the PSA exceeds a certain level, then it is contraindicated (I don't recall the excat level). Below that level, no matter how low the PSA was, it is prudent to measure it regularly.

Testosterone does NOT cause prostate cancer. However, if you have a very small prostate carcinoma already, it will accelerate growth f that cancer usually. That is why the PSA levels are so important. The myth that Testosterone triggers cancer is now fairly well disproved.

Tim

I'm willing to give the anti-glycants a try and I would like to know, from anyone of you who knows, if they will have a positive affect on my blood sugar and possibly ( ) my love handles.

Tim:

You are partially right about testosterone not causing prostate cancer. There have been some studies that show it does to a degree. However, once prostate cancer cells appear in one's body, they feed very rapidly on the testosterone.

Frequent PSA level tests are the main way of keeping tabs on the advancement of the cancer. It has now been recognized that men around the age of 60 or so should not have a PSA level above 4.0. The frequent checks of PSA will help monitor the increase or decrease of the numbers. Any radical upward spiral of PSA levels indicate serious problems with the cancer. I know first hand, have been through an aggressive form of prostate cancer, resulting in a serious radical retropubic prostatectomy in 1995.

Regards, Old Man

bodoo2u, I know of no possible effect on blood sugar levels from anti-glycants, except for Pyruvate.  In error, I included Banaba on the list.  It is NOT an anti-glycant.  But it might very well also have the effect of lowering blood sugar, and retracting the love handles.  Others on the list may actually be helpful to some small degree with the love handles, as they tend to re-partition energy from fat to energy.  - George

I don't think anyone suggested testosterone causes prostate cancer.  

Quote from: Nemo on January 07, 2008, 10:45:55 PM
I have mixed feelings about getting on Testosterone replacement - I am excited by the prospect that it can boost my energy and sense of wellbeing, not to mention libido and erectile function, but I'm scared of what it can do to the prostate (speeding the growth of any cancer cells that may exist)...

Random postmortem studies do indicate that over 50% of males over 60 years old have pc cells upon microscopic examination.  This means that anything that is known to speed this growth up is potentially a major concern.  Generally acceptable PSA levels are less than 4.  If you jump from 1.5 to 3 however in a 12 month period, the PSA velocity alone dictates a much closer exam and follow-up.  PSA doubling rate is everything regardless of the reading.

It is also now known that body weight affects PSA readings.  Generally, people who are heavier will have lower PSA readings than people who are slender.  Thus a PSA reading that would not be a concern for a slender person might well be a concern for a heavier person.  And, as Hawk has noted, any unexpected CHANGES in PSA levels are a concern as well.  AND PSA readings should always be double checked with a traditional exam.  - George

I agree guys, if the Endo puts me on Testosterone Replacement, trust me, I'll be getting voluntarilly fingered and PSA'd every quarter (forget twice a year).  I'll be watching it like a hawk, believe me.  

Nemo

All,

I was reviewing forum remarks about forskolin when I came upon these two by George999:

From "Tim's charts", July 30, 2007
4)  cGMP up regulators to (like Forskolin) to down regulate Collagen Synthesis


From "Elastin", August 12, 2007
5) Forskolin increases cAMP levels which means that forskolin with all of its potential benefits may not be good for elastin production.


George999, if you're out there (or anyone else with insight on this supplement), what is your current thinking about forskolin? Did you mean to say that forskolin increases cGMP or did you mean cAMP? I am a bit confused about this and about its benefits for Peyronie's. (While I'm at it, permit me to say, George999, that your posts are simply excellent, really instructive; thank you.)

-soiDisant

All - Sorry; it would appear that I have forgotten how to post a NEW topic. Perhaps one of the admins could move this to a new topic. Again, apologies.

Post moved from the traction topic.   Hawk

Quote from: soiDisant on January 09, 2008, 04:11:06 PM
All,

I was reviewing forum remarks about forskolin when I came upon these two by George999:

From "Tim's charts", July 30, 2007
4)  cGMP up regulators to (like Forskolin) to down regulate Collagen Synthesis


From "Elastin", August 12, 2007
5) Forskolin increases cAMP levels which means that forskolin with all of its potential benefits may not be good for elastin production.


George999, if you're out there (or anyone else with insight on this supplement), what is your current thinking about forskolin? Did you mean to say that forskolin increases cGMP or did you mean cAMP?

Quote from: National Institute of Child Health and Human DevelopmentOn the other hand, forskolin, an activator of adenylyl cyclase, and IBMX, a nonselective inhibitor of phosphodiesterase, increased cAMP and cGMP production as well as PRL release in a time- and concentration-dependent manner.

http://eclipse.nichd.nih.gov/nichd/annualreport/2004/errb/scs.htm

Forskolin appears to increase both cGMP and cAMP, although different studies often come to different conclusions as to why these levels get upregulated.

Quote from: soiDisant on January 09, 2008, 04:11:06 PMI am a bit confused about this and about its benefits for Peyronie's.

And you are not alone!  I often find myself somewhat confused as I try to follow the research as it pours forth.  Many studies actually provide more questions than they do answers, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.  Trying to follow these studies and make use of their findings is something like driving a car.  You can't just aim in a straight direction and go to sleep until you arrive.  There are always unexpected things happening in the roadway ahead and one is always having to make little corrections as a result.  At this point I really don't know the deal one way or another about Forskolin.  By the way, I, myself, am still taking it, but I may discontinue it as I finish my current supply, since I think I am on to things that may work better.  I am convinced that Forskolin has been very useful to me in terms of my general health, but it is probably time to take a break and move on.

I am also not so sure that the subtle effects of Forskolin on either Collagen OR Elastin are beneficial.  The need that I see is to knock out glycation which corrupts Collagen AND Elastin.  Once that is accomplished, one would actually want to accelerate BOTH Collagen AND Elastin production in order to promote turnover, and, hopefully, the replacement of "bad" glycated (AGEed) Collagen with "good" non-glycated (normal) Collagen.  This would point toward the potential of benefits from supplements such as Aloe Vera.

Quote from: soiDisant on January 09, 2008, 04:11:06 PM(While I'm at it, permit me to say, George999, that your posts are simply excellent, really instructive; thank you.)

Thanks for the encouragement!  Its appreciated.  - George

Quote from: soiDisant on January 09, 2008, 04:11:06 PM-soiDisant

All - Sorry; it would appear that I have forgotten how to post a NEW topic. Perhaps one of the admins could move this to a new topic. Again, apologies.

Post moved from the traction topic.   Hawk

Hey guys,

My peyronie's is still a hot mess.  I decided to fast today, trying something new.  All the talk about glycation has me wondering about my diet of lots of fresh fruits.  Should I back off the apples and cantelope because of the sugar?  I know high glycemic will aggravate inflammation.  Fruit is not exactly low glycemic.  Maybe I should back off it to stop the inflammation.


Also I remember the first time I had peyronies I was in my late 20's.  A very knowledgeable man at the healthfood store told me to supplement with "Cystine" because it is not destroyed in the gastrointestinal tract.  It probably goes without saying I will be taking it soon to promote glutathione production.  But back in my 20's my peyronies went away completely six months or so after it started.  

 

Some things about the glycemic index might be surprising.  Sweetness doesn't necessarily tell you a lot when it comes to whole food.  For example:

Apple:  Glycemic Index=28  Glycemic Load=4.1

Baked Potato:  Glycemic Index=94  Glycemic Load=27.3

The Apple therefore ranks LOW on the Glycemic Index whereas the baked potato ranks HIGH.  Also note that the spread in terms of Glycemic Load is even greater.  Glycemic Load takes into account the amount of a particular food required to satisfy.  Also compare:

Cantelope: Glycemic Index=65  Glycemic Load=4
French Bread:  Glycemic Index=95  Glycemic Load=48

So one should be careful in reducing fruit intake in the diet.  Another huge issue is that fruit tends to be nutrient dense, and that is a good thing when it comes to food.  This causes it to be very satisfying and satiating.  And there is at least one fruit, mangosteen, that ACTIVELY fights glycation.

So the big thing for me with fruit has been to take steps to reduce the effective Glycemic Load.  This can be done by adding certain healthy "condiments" to your fresh fruit.  A little bit of whey protein mixed in will make it more filling as will some added fruit fiber.  Cinnamon will buffer the effects of the fructose content as will chia seed.  And adding a bit of healthy cerreal  and nuts such as walnuts or pecans will make it more filling as well.  But a number of studies have demonstrated that fruit is not the major culprit in elevating serum glucose and insulin levels, it is refined and processed foods that are the major problem in that regard.  Even vegetables are worse offenders.  For example:

Rice:  Glycemic Index=99
Bread:  Glycemic Index=97
Parsnip:  Glycemic Index=97
Scones:  Glycemic Index=92
Corn Flakes:  Glycemic Index=92

On the other hand:

Cherries:  Glycemic Index=22
Plum:  Glycemic Index=24
Grapefuit:  Glycemic Index=25
Canned Pear:  Glycemic Index=25
Peach:  Glycemic Index=28
Apricot:  Glycemic Index=30

So in terms of fruit, the problem is more about what they add to it than the sugars it naturally contains.  Raw fruit is usually not a problem in terms of Glycemic Index.

- George

Hi Everyone,

I am a new member to the forum; I hope this post is in the correct area, if not maybe someone could advise where it should be posted.

I am a UK resident and as I understand it, drugs that are available in the US or other parts of the world are not necessarily available here in the UK. Therefore my question is can anyone from the UK please make a recommendation of an oral treatment for the disease freely available over here.

Pleased to be amongst friends

Regards

ukk9

Hi UKK9,

I am also a sufferer from the U.K.  I tried to get pentox from the NHS, however the doctors refused as they said that their guidlines state peyronies is incurable, they are unable to prescribe anything for it, even though I showed them many studies stating its positive benefits.  To be honest, you need to take responsibilty for your own treatment; this is possible.  I have been able to aquire pentox on the net.  Try a Spanish company called Goldpharma, I found them to be cheap and quick with delivery, you can purchase a generic version of pentox from them, it will be called something else but it will state that it is a generic form of pentox.  I am almost a month into this treatment, no positive signs yet, but from reading the forum it looks as if nine months to a year is the minimum time to see an effect.  Also , there are myriad supplements that people take on this forum.  I have been trying to follow Georges approach of supplementing anty-glycants (bentofamine, Acetyl - Lcarnitine, L-carnosine) as well as a full spectrum vit E and L-arginine.  Search for supplements on the web, I have found that American companies generally provide supplements for the same price in dollars as we pay in pounds, and even with the cost of shpping the strength of the pound means they are pretty cheap.  I wish you the best of luck with your treatment regime.

I thought that under NHS guidelines, that a doctor could prescribe something, but it would not be covered financially. That way, couldn't he prescribe Pentox (if he knew that it worked and agreed) and then the patient could get it paying out of pocket?

Tim

Hi Duben

Thanks for your prompt reply. I have taken a look at the company you suggested but I must admit that I am completely baffled by the variety of products shown when the word Pentox is searched for on their web site. Have you any suggestions concerning particuar products/quantities?

As an aside, has anyone heard of a product called vasolator, by coincidence a leaflet for this product came tucked inside a windows advisory update I subscribe to - its to much to hope that its fate and going to be something worth trying I suppose.

regards

ukk9

Tim, that's just what they told me.  I don'tif you'd get a different answer from a different doc, to be honest I just wanted to stress the point that it may be faster to aquire what you8 want yourself, rather tahn wait for an appointment when you are unsure they'll do anything.  By all means, pursue both courses of action concurrently, cover your bases, but you're not going to get better doing nothing.

UKK9,
the dose for pentox is 1.2 g a day, I take two of the 600mg HEMOVAS from goldpharma a day, but I have no idea what the difference between all the generic version they sell is, if there is any.  Pot luck I guess!  All the best, Duben

Quote from: Duben on January 13, 2008, 09:01:18 AM
I have been able to aquire pentox on the net.  Try a Spanish company called Goldpharma, I found them to be cheap and quick with delivery, you can purchase a generic version of pentox from them, it will be called something else but it will state that it is a generic form of pentox.  

Gentlemen,

Pentoxifylline is the generic form of a prescription drug called Trental.  You have mentioned you are getting a generic form of pentoxifylline.  I'm wondering how is it possible to get a generic of a generic?  It's possible you are not getting any form of Trental.

In light of the previous post, can anyone advise as to exactly what medication is worth purchasing? As someone who reallu doesn't understand anything about how treatments are named etc and with there being generic versions, real names and it appears generic versions of generic versions the whole thing is becoming even more confusing.

Any advice would be most welcome (sorry if I appear a bit of a dim wit - its my age !!!)

ukk9

Let me help the self-labeled "dimwits"...  

When a drug is developed, it has a name. That name may be based on it's chemical structure, or it may be based on something else. An example would be a drug called "SQ2948". IT was developed by Squibb (hence the "SQ") and it was the 2,948th drug developed (perhaps that year?... that decade? - I don't know), that was developed for the purposes of fighting heart attacks. It never made it to production because it was not suitable (though I used it in the laboratory to test another hypothesis on pigs).

Another drug I have used is called "FK506" (called Fujimicin in Japan) and it is used to prevent rejection in lung transplant victims, er, I mean patients. It moved out of the experimental stage, when it was used only experimentally, and it was given a different name of "Tacrolimus".

FK506, or Tacrolimus is now called by the "Brand Name" of "Pro-Graf".

A brand name is given to a drug when it becomes marketable, by the company that holds the patent. When the drug goes off patent, other companies can market the drug, but they have to either make up their own name, or use the original drug/chemical name.

For instance, the drug Diphenhydramine is not well known. But it is still known (even though it is no longer covered by patent law) as Benedryl in the US (and as Dimedrol outside the US).

So, for a drug to be available as a "generic", it must be done with it's patent protetion, so that other companies can manufacture their own versions.

The key thing to look for is the "active ingredient(s)" of a drug. The active indregient in Trental is Pentoxifylline. It may also be marketed as Pentoxifylline; it may also be marketed as someting else, as long as the active ingredient is Pentoxifylline.

A "Generic" drug is simply a drug made by someone other than the original patent holder. It might be named something completely different, though many use catchy names that allow the generic to cash in on the name brand recognition of the original patented drug (ie a version of diphenhydramine is marketed as Benylin, which sounds a lot like Benadryl).

Hope that clears it up a bit.

Tim

Wikipedia has more on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_drug

Hi George again.

OK - progress here. I have made the change to more fruit, and am really glad I have done that. The fruit salad idea was great and it gives me a way to eat fruit without thinking "But I don't feel like eating an apple right now". I am adding some crunchy cereal - thanks for the tip about Food for Life - great products.

The problem I have is I tried introducing some powdered fiber to it and it became a glutinous mess, that was unpalatable in texture and immediately lost the flavor of the fruits, now being dominated by the powder that I added (which is the store brand for fiber from Whole Foods).

Any tips on what kind of fiber to add to the fruit in the morning? I am now starting to work on lunch time as well  

Tim

Tim, as with everything and especially diet which covers many subtle likes and dislikes, each person has to find what works for them by applying the known principles.

I find that eating 5-7 servings of fruit and vegetables a day along with all whole grains gives all the fiber needed.  Oatmeal is high in fiber, berries are quite high in fiber.  Sprinkling ground flax gives added fiber and omega 3.

My fruit shake or smoothie that I have posted, will give most people more fiber than they can comfortably adjust to on the initial 2 or 3 days.  It has 4 servings of fruit in just that smoothie alone.  I feel that the need to add fiber supplements is a sign that our base diet may be flawed.

Tim, as with everything and especially diet which covers many subtle likes and dislikes, each person has to find what works for them by applying the known principles.

I find that eating 5-7 servings of fruit and vegetables a day along with all whole grains gives all the fiber needed.  Oatmeal is high in fiber, berries are quite high in fiber.  Sprinkling ground flax gives added fiber and omega 3.

My fruit shake or smoothie that I have posted, will give most people more fiber than they can comfortably adjust to on the initial 2 or 3 days.  It has 4 servings of fruit in just that smoothie alone.  I feel that the need to add fiber supplements is a sign that our base diet may be flawed.

Tim, I keep a number of different types of fiber on hand.  I prefer soluble fiber.  For fruits I use fruit fiber.  The trick is to use just enough to thicken it nicely without having it turn into an unpalatable gruel.  I use both Apple Fiber and Grapefruit fiber.  These are a really fine fiber that mixes thoroughly with the juice from the fruit mix and helps to bind the sugars as well as adding extra fiber to my diet.  For the vegetables, I use Corn fiber and Flax meal.  These add an appropriate texture and flavoring to my veggies.  - George

Thanks Hawk and George,

I agree that adding fiber may indicate that my base diet is not right - but I have trouble adding as much fruit and veggies as I should to my daily diet. I am working on it.

But I think that for me, increasing my fiber intake may yield some specific benefits in terms of my HDL/LDL ratios and I am therefore trying to push the fiber to higher than usual - and I am already below "usual".

George, I will start googling - but if you have any preferred brands of fiber please let me know. I promise I won't accuse you of being a shill for some fiber dealer.

Tim

Personally, I use ZTrim for the corn fiber and the NOW brands for the Apple and Grapefruit at this point.  I also use Chia for both fruit and veggies.  I use about a tablespoon of each of these.  If I revealed exactly how much total fiber I am consuming, many on this forum would quickly conclude that I am ODing to the extreme.  But soluble fruit and vegetable fiber has a fairly low level of toxicity and it achieves what I want it to do in spades.  Seriously.

1) The right fiber in the right amount actually can enhance the palatability of the food.
2) It lowers blood sugar directly by slowing absorption of dietary sugars.
3) It lowers serum cholesterol levels directly.
4) It actually enhances uptake of many nutrients by releasing them slowly as the food passes through the digestive tract.
5) It enhances bowel regularity and thus enhances the health of the gastrointestinal tract.
6) By directly inhibiting glucose spikes, it results in weight loss, which further lowers blood sugar and cholesterol levels AND blood pressure levels.

I experience totally no side effects from lots of fiber other than the cost of paying for it.  But it certainly reduces the amount of food I eat, since it is very filling, and so those costs really get canceled out.

I would never recommend this amount of fiber for my children because they don't need it.  A healthy diet in and of itself would supply them with sufficient fiber.  But when a person has an unhealthy diet for a long time that has insufficient fiber among other things, it takes an excessive amount of fiber to reverse the damage caused by an unhealthy diet in the first place.  The whole pathway that leads up to Metabolic Syndrome is chock full of feed back loops.  It takes MAJOR intervention to break those loops and restore a normal metabolism.  I'm not there yet, but I am on the way and I am reaping the benefits of taking that course of action.  Anyone who starts life with a healthy diet and continues through life with a healthy diet will reach an adult weight at around 18-20 years of age AND maintain that weight for the rest of their life.  When anyone has a tendency to progressively gain weight as they advance in age, that is a sign that something is wrong with their diet, and simply fixing the diet will not stop the weight gain because their metabolism has already been damaged.  And it takes prolonged and determined action to deal with that imbalance.  - George

FLASH! -- Another Study Links Western Diet to Heart, Health Risks http://www.healthday.com/Article.asp?AID=611897

Quote from: Tim468 on January 22, 2008, 02:21:00 PM
...I think that for me, increasing my fiber intake may yield some specific benefits in terms of my HDL/LDL ratios.

You probably know this but for the specific benefit you mention, you need to specifically monitor soluble fiber.