Meat vs. vegan

[krazylord]

Hi Frisky, I actually think we don't need animal products at all. We are herbivores by nature, contrary to the extended culture around the world. We don't need meet, milk, eggs and cheese. In fact, those are responsible of most of the ailments we suffer. And on top of that, we have the ethical aspect of killing animals for habit, tradition, convenience and taste, and nothing more.

Thats just my opinion though. Keep us posted how your fibrosis go. If I have any improvement, I will let you know.

Peace.  

[skunkworks]

No, we are most definitely meat eaters by nature, omnivores leaning more toward carnivore than vegetarian.

https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2009/09/11/are-we-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-part-i/

https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2009/09/21/are-we-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-part-ii/

https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2011/12/19/are-we-meat-eaters-or-vegetarians-part-iii/

http://www.alsearsmd.com/2010/11/missing-link-ate-meat/

http://www.nature.com/articles/nature16990.epdf?referrer_access_token=1Y3QAdS2xjwApopsOTTbTdRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0M8YcVenEcO7CgRz5HSvoTFoxs-22vo5cVzlc-7sejkjL83ZSX8tCP9TAi4GEE5frJaJMgJRLWWJOIVMjH_elhYqsIPOiJI5TaBhYGLDw1eht7gMWpIWdxvkuEIl0h278eIBm9Vc6k5X5xagebETb44&tracking_referrer=time.com

[krazylord]

Hi skun, thanks for the links. Didn't want to make this a debate, but I guess is not bad to discuss things.

I went to the first three links, and to be honest, many people writing there and the author deserve not too much respect to me. The insults and the adjectives they use over people who are vegan is disgusting.

The author of those articles says things like all allergies come from veggies and plants(?), that we don't need to eat fruits and veggies(?) at all and that by eating just meat we can all be healthy(?). I will not comment on this, since the ignorance of these statements speak for themselves.

Nobody knows with certain how the brain evolved, but it is certainly possible that fire and animal hunting made it possible to get more nutrients to the body and therefore helped to develop a bigger brain. There are many theories, but that doesnt mean we are meat eaters. It just mean that we adapt to survive and that cooked meat helped to get more nutrients. I am nto saying meat doesnt have nutrients. I am saying we can get them elsewhere and we are not programmed to be meat eaters. It's a decision we make.

If you are a REAL meat eater, I suggest that you go to the wild, hunt an animal, and eat it just like it. Eat the skin, the flesh, the blood vessels, the joints and ligaments and muscles till the bone. All with blood coming out everywhere. Because thats what a meat eater does. If you can't, then don't tell me you are a meat eater. If you can only eat meat packaged by industry after somebody else killed and dismembered somebody else's flesh, then you are not a real meat eater.

Then, I also saw in the comments of the article you referred to, people saying how nasty is to eat vegan....really??? So it is nasty to eat beans, rice, lentils, veggies...and it is not nasty to eat somebody elses'' ribs, flesh, blood vessels, etc, after they have been electrocuted in the a$$, tortured and killed? People is crazy (and yes, I am the krazy lord, so I know, believe me xD) And if they are meat eaters, fine. But they should not insult vegans who decide they have no right to support an industry that torture animals so that we can eat a ham and cheese sandwich.

Anyways, as I said, this is just MY opinion. And it is MY opinion that we are herbivores by nature. If you put a hungry child with a small rabbit and an apple, call me when the chlld eats the rabbit and plays with the apple. Im sorry but I dont think that will ever happen. And it wont simply we are not born meat eaters. We are said since little to eat meat and disregard the live of those animals who we don't consider pets. Its all culture. Nobody that I know has the instincts to kill an animal. Real meat eaters like lions learn it very soon.

I will read the other posts you suggests out of respect for your time posting them and comment on those.

Thanks!

[Perspex]

Krazylord - I agree

For most of human existence we survived primarily on a none meat diet. Consuming meat every single day... maybe even multiple times is definitely not natural or usual for humans. That is a modern phenomenon... unless you grew up in the arctic circle and lived off fish and seals

There are hundreds of millions of vegetarians worldwide, possibly. I think India alone has around 300 million. These people have probably been vegetarians for many many generations.

I used to eat meat pretty mindlessly. This is just normal in our cultures. After a while I started thinking... do I want to consume an animal that's been pumped full of antibiotics, fed dubious feed... and spends its days scratching around in its own crap in small enclosures (chickens was first off the menu, have you seen what state they get in yo even in many so called free range, organic farms). Why would I want that wretched looking creature in my body.

It took years for me to reach a point of not eating meat. After a year in India with no meat eating... I realised that actually my body didn't need it at all.

We all make our own decision on this... but in the end we definitely don't need it and most importantly here In my opinion -  

eating more meat is almost certainly not going to be a key factor in making a penis straight again

If it turns out that this forum has a disproportionate number of vegetarians... therefore indicating that not eating meat is related to peyronies... I'll eat my words... and some road kill  .

If it doesn't.... then eating meat probably wont help our penises

[skunkworks]

For most of human existence we survived primarily on a none meat diet.

That is categorically untrue. Eating meat played a pivotal role in humans becoming the hugely successful species they are today.

Fragments of a 1.5-million-year-old skull from a child recently found in Tanzania suggest early hominids weren't just occasional carnivores but regular meat eaters, researchers say.

The finding helps build the case that meat-eating helped the human lineage evolve large brains, scientists added.

"I know this will sound awful to vegetarians, but meat made us human," said researcher Manuel Domínguez-Rodrigo, an archaeologist at Complutense University in Madrid.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/04/120420105539.htm

http://www.livescience.com/23671-eating-meat-made-us-human.html

I went to the first three links, and to be honest, many people writing there and the author deserve not too much respect to me. The insults and the adjectives they use over people who are vegan is disgusting.

That is a fair point as to their tone, but their tone in no way negates the hard science they reference. Which is the point. This is a discussion about health, and opinions on that should be guided by science, biology and anthropology, not by feelings.  

[krazylord]

Hi skun,

What perspex says does not contradict what you say. Either way, the past does not reveal a simple answer. So you are wrong to be as categoric as you are. There is no one single answer to this. For each study you give me, I give you two that says the opposite.

Several points:

1) Most herbivores can digest meat quite well. That doesn't mean they are not herbivores.

2) If you read my post I don't deny meat and specially cooked meat played a role in our brains to develop as a human species. EVERYTHING we ate played a role. What I am saying is that we don't need it. Who knows if we would have evolved differently if we never tried meat.

3) Nobody knows how important were animal resources to our ancestors versus non-animal resources and plants. What we know is that they started to eat meat at some point and developed tools to scavenge in the flesh. And that before they had tools, they were scavenging what the lions and other predators left behind. Like the dogs did with our leftovers before and after domestication of animals. Nobody knows the reason why they started to eat meat. But we know that we survived for a long time without that and we know that we can eat all kinds of food.

4) You can go back 1000 years, or 50.000 years, or 4 million years. Our body, not just the brain, evolved to take advantage of what was available at the time. When agricultures took over, we had to adapt. When we could eat available meat, we had to adapt.

We can eat meat and process it, but as perspex says, it is only in the recent history that we started to eat that much meat. Chimpanzees eat almost no meat. But they do sometimes. That doesn't make them carnivores.

We can eat meat, that doesn't make us carnivores.

My opinion is simple: we can live all our lives without eating meat. And be healthy. You cannot eat just meat all your live and be as healthy. And this tell me that we are more herbivores that can eat meat, than carnivores.

Lastly, I will paraphrase author Harvey Diamond's: there isn't a speck of carnivorism nor an iota of omnivorism in us. People become inured to the taste of blood, flesh, veins, muscles, tendons, cow secretions [milk], hen-ass droppings [eggs] and bee vomit [honey] after they're forced down our throats during childhood.

Peace.

[FriskyDingo]

Ahh the never ending battle of vegetarians and non-vegetarians. I use to engage in these, but its whatever now.

[krazylord]

Hi Frisky,

It depends what is "recent" to you. Humans are very "recent". And 500.000 years ago is also very recent. It's a matter of perspective, nothing to do with human evolutionary history

The scientific opinions on whether humans are natural herbivores or not are plural, and that's why I did not put any link either. As I said, I could put many studies from Universities in California and the rest of the world on that. This is an on-going debate in the scientific community. We will not solve this here.

The scientific opinions on whether red meat is dangerous for the health are also plural, however more in agreement towards that one side you dont' like. There is increasing evidence that dietary factors in plant-based diets are important in the prevention of chronic disease. And that the more red meat you eat, the risker the factor. I am not making this up. And not just because the WHO says it.

The scientific opinions on whether meat was what made our brain evolve or plant-based diet are also plural. Again, nobody here has the truth as nobody knows.

The ethical opinions here don't matter. Everybody has the right to do what they want. I just don't want to collaborate in the animal holocaust happening everywhere by buying meat, milk, cheese and eggs. Doesn't matter if it is free-range/freedom/organic/cage-free/antibiotic-free/hormone-free/grass-fed/local facilities. The animals end up being slaughtered, sooner or later. And I can't justify that when I can be healthy without their flesh, and specially, when the ONLY reason I am eating them is habit, tradition, convenience and taste. Again, my personal choice.

I would agree with you Frisky that balance is key. Like all in life. If you asked me my preferred balance if I wanted to continue eating meat, I would say 75% non-animal products and 15% animal product. I read about your example with some tribes with exactly the opposite percentage, and I have no answer to that. But I have seen many people getting sick in Spain, where I am from, and they all have in common the same things: they eat so much meat, milk, cheese and eggs. All my vegetarian friends are way healthier. And this is a fact.

Anyhow, and going back to fasting and Peyronie's, I talked today with Dr. Goldhammer, from Santa Rosa (CA), and he said he had several people fasting who had Peyronie's. He said some of them did not get better, and some of them got better with erectile function (not Peyronies Disease necessarily). I am gonna go to his facility and try a 10-21 day fasting, probably in June, and I will report back.

[skunkworks]

@Frisky, I know I probably shouldn't bother, but if I post the evidence then people other than those I am arguing with might see the reality of where that evidence points.

[skunkworks]

For each study you give me, I give you two that says the opposite.

For each study you give I will give 40 that say the opposite and then run 100m in 5 seconds. You see how easy it is to say what you are going to do rather than do it?

My opinion is simple: we can live all our lives without eating meat. And be healthy. You cannot eat just meat all your live and be as healthy. And this tell me that we are more herbivores that can eat meat, than carnivores.

And again, your opinion on this topic is completely wrong. In this case, it is actually backward.

You can eat a meat only diet and be healthy - Two Brave Men Who Ate Nothing But Meat for an Entire Year

You cannot eat a diet devoid of animal products and be healthy - https://chriskresser.com/what-everyone-especially-vegetarians-should-know-about-b12-deficiency/

[Perspex]

 
To skunkworks - "That is categorically untrue. Eating meat played a pivotal role in humans becoming the hugely successful species they are today"

It isn't categorically untrue - it may be true that "Eating meat played a pivotal role in humans becoming the hugely successful species" but this does not mean we weren't eating primarily a non meat diet.

This is an interesting conversation actually. I appreciate the chance to think about it. I don't often talk about it.

Of course once our ancestors realised that if they ate meat they could survive in times where plants are scarce.. and one animal could give the sustenance that days of vegetable picking could give. As a result we were able to remain alive, survive and develop. We are very good at growing vegetables in all seasons now, so those pressures are no longer there. I wonder whether our development can be so heavily put down to the benefits of meat... or whether its just that at that time meat enabled us to stay alive and stronger for longer. Improved agricultural knowledge and global shipping has provided us with the plant resources to keep us strong, healthy and alive now, year around.

I'd like to clarify that I am not anti meat eating. I sometimes eat meat. I'm not a strict vegie or vegan.

It seems that vit B12 is the main thing people with low meat consumption lack. But this is something our bodies only require in very small amounts. And is actually produced by bacteria that live in the guts of the animals we eat. We can take B12 supliments if needed.. or wanted

[krazylord]

"For each study you give I will give 40 that say the opposite and then run 100m in 5 seconds. You see how easy it is to say what you are going to do rather than do it?"

And again, your opinion on this topic is completely wrong. In this case, it is actually backward.

I think you should lower your tone. If you cannot tolerate others points of view, then why debate? You did not quite understand my statement. I am not here to see who is right or wrong. I can see however you take this too way serious as to tell me I am wrong. Fine. I am wrong. You can be happy now.

But since you insist to let us all know that you are RIGHT and that everybody else is WRONG, I will play your game.

Going to your links:

- "You cannot eat a diet devoid of animal products and be healthy - https://chriskresser.com/what-everyone-especially-vegetarians-should-know-about-b12-deficiency/"

Turns out that the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition reports (Plasma vitamin B-12 concentrations relate to intake source in the Framingham Offspring Study) that 39% of Americans have low levels of B12. If only 1% of Americans are vegan, how can a B12 deficiency be a vegan issue? Not only that, another study shows that vitamin-b12 is not a problem in a well-planned vegan diet (B-vitamin status and concentrations of homocysteine in Austrian omnivores, vegetarians and vegans. - PubMed - NCBI).

You are welcome.

- "You can eat a meat only diet and be healthy - Two Brave Men Who Ate Nothing But Meat for an Entire Year"

Turns out this University of Southern California study clearly indicts animal protein as a deadly toxin: http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/abstract/S1550-4131%2814%2900062-X. Or this one from the American Society for Clinical Nutrition about the link between red and processed meat and prostate cancer: Egg, red meat, and poultry intake and risk of lethal prostate cancer in the prostate specific antigen-era: incidence and survival. Or this one(Vegetarian diets and the incidence of cancer in a low-risk population. - PubMed - NCBI) from Loma Linda University funded by the National Cancer Institute (yes, those communists anti-meat) which reported that vegans have lower rates of cancer than both meat-eaters and vegetarians.

You are welcome.

See? Your million links can be kicked-back by 100 million saying the opposite. So please, stop playing that game. You do not have the truth on this, nor do I. The scientific community is plural, and there are studies pointing on either directions. However, even if you don't like it, the truth is the vast majority of them in the recent years state that red meat increases the risks for chronic and ailments. I am sorry if this bothers you: http://www.cancer.org/cancer/news/news/world-health-organization-says-processed-meat-causes-cancer Yes, apparently the World health Organization is also a bunch of vegan communists.

[FriskyDingo]

Krazylord, the clinic sounds interesting. Do you happen to have corporal fibrosis as I do? I promised myself I would do everything in my power before contacting Dr. Kuehhas for surgery, but I dont think I can do a long fast. I can't take time off of work and still save money for current therapies and potential surgery in the future. Nevertheless, I will continue doing restricted time feeding fasting.

Your clinic of interest offers acupuncture. I am actually going through a once a week acupuncture therapy at the moment. I am doing it for peyronies and for chronic foot injury. My peyronies pain had mostly gone away before I started acupuncture, so I cant say if it is helping or not for that. However, for my foot pain, it has seemingly made the pain in my left foot disappear. So I must recommend, for those currently suffering from pain (peyornies or not), to go try acupuncture. I do not think you will be disappointed.

One interesting thing I have noticed while fasting is that I function better if I am sleep deprived. If for example, I only get 5 hours of sleep, then eat within 8hrs of waking up, I will feel groggy. If I don't eat, and fast until its been 24hr since my last meal, I function much better at work. Also, I have been able to easily maintain a 6% body fat since starting this type of fasting, which is down from 9-10% when I wasnt. This is nice because I didnt have to change my caloric intake.

[james1947]

krazylord

I think you should lower your tone as you cannot tolerate others points of view
Your posts are becoming more like personal attacks than constructive conversation
You may want to read the forum rules in the subject

James

[krazylord]

James,

If you want to threaten me, go ahead. I understand you want to defend the "old ones" in this forum, but you should re-read my comments.

ALL my posts are respectful. The only one who should lower the tone is skun.

Next time you accuse me of being intolerant with false accusations, I will leave this forum. Now, I want you to post here where did I NOT TOLERATE others point of view. I want you to quote me on any place where I said to skun that I dont repect his views or that he is wrong. On the contrary, he was the one telling us that we were wrong, while we were just saying that nobody is right or wrong. So it is funny to see you accusing me while not saying anything to him.

So please, stop playing that game. You do not have the truth on this, nor do I.

Where do you see the INTOLERANCE on that statement, Mr. James? By admitting that none of us has the truth, because the studies are plural? Is that what you call "cannot tolerate others points of view"? Really? Next time be careful with your accusations.

If you don't quote me on anything, I demand an apology from you.

[krazylord]

Hi Frisky,

I will report back to you as to how it goes. I do, as you, have corporal fibrosis. But I suspect also tunica fibrosis since my semi-erect penis has deformations that go away with full erections.

I am starting the fasting tomorrow, since I will try to do it alone before in the Santa Rosa center, to see how it goes. A month there might be around $5000, so it is something to keep in mind. You need cash and time, which I don't have at this moment.

I will ask about the acupuncture. Thanks for the tip!

[FriskyDingo]

Hey krazy,

Can you have tunica fibrosis without a plaque? If so, then I may have tunica fibrosis along with my corporal fibrosis, even though I had developed the classic plaque. Im not sure what I would do with this information, just interesting to know I guess.

[james1947]

Sorry krazylord, I can't ban you and even if I was able, I will not do.
I am a simple member like you, just longer time around.
I am for debates, especially civilized ones.
Regarding apology, don't wait for it, I am not in the mood.

Next time you accuse me of being intolerant with false accusations, I will leave this forum

It's up to you. I will miss your posts, but no one is held here against his will. It is just a forum of people that try to help each other to fight this horrible disease.

To the subject of this topic:
1. Have 1.5 billion people fasting each year for one month. Do you think they are more healthy? I am living 20 years already in two countries that the vast majority is fasting. I don't think they are more healthy.
2. Some 10 years ago I bought a $30 book with the title: "Cure yourself from prostate cancer" I had no prostate cancer just a little bit enlarged prostate, but I follow the book religiously. The program includes periods of strict fasting, vegetarian diet (it was not easy as I like red meet, especially if it is fat), cleaning the amalgam from the toots fillings ans many more.
It didn't work for me. All the toots that I empty from amalgam are gone already, no any other fillings helped.
I wrote an email to him. The answer was from his wife (I suppose she is very reach now from the book) and she wrote me that she is very sad to tell me that her beloved husband passes away . Very sad . Guess from what? From prostate cancer after he cured himself already. So this is the reason I am skeptical regarding  fasting, diet, healthy eating and so on.

Have a nice day
James

[Freemason]

Not to get into this crazy discussion but I highly doubt 39% of Americans are low in any B vitamin..it takes a whole lot of nutrient neglect to be deficient in Vitamin b..it's probably the easiest vitamin to get into your body besides C.

[krazylord]

Hi Frisky,

Yes, you can have fibrosis without a plaque. Fibrosis might be sometimes hard to find if it is very small. A plaque is easier to find. And yes, I have both plaque and diffuse fibrosis.

[QuackAttack]

Free,

I thought you might be interested in this on vitamin B-1 and heart problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nRIXWQsjBQ

[skunkworks]

I have locked this topic for obvious reasons.

Anyone is free to open another one about nutrition and fasting as it relates to Peyronie's. However, any new topic or posts on the topic of nutrition and fasting must relate to Peyronie's and be backed by evidence, which needs to be posted, not just mentioned.

Nutrition has always been a contentious topic on this forum, but it must be dealt with as any other topic on the forum, with evidence. Not opinions.

Nutrition is a science, not an ideology, and evidence is the only thing that matters. Opinions do not, unless they are backed by evidence. This is an evidence based forum, and nutrition should and will be held to the same standard as discussions on other potential treatments are.  

[LWillisjr]

I split this out of respect to the original poster (OP). Went off topic from a "healthy diet" discussion. This topic is locked as this forum isn't the place for this type of debate.