Traction

[wayne999]

Does anyone know the progress of Dr Levine's additional studies into traction therapy since http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/120089859/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

How come no official studies into VED have been done ?

EDIT:
Also, do you think there would be benefit of doing traction for only 1 or 2 hours a day for longer than 6mths (say 12 or 18mths) ? I know Levine mentioned somewhere in some article that those who used it for 4 or 5 hours a day seemed to have better results over the 6 month trial but I don't unfortuntately have that much free time every day. I'm very confused now about whether to head down this traction path or VED path.

[Ptolemy]

If you can only do one, I would use VED. It is far easier to consistently use. Traction is something I can only do at home. I can use Traction right now because I'm spending a lot of time working out of my home.

[Tim468]

The traction is not incompatible with use of the VED. I use the VED every night for about 20 minutes, and I think it helped me a bit, and has helped me hold my ground. The traction has been much harder to use consistently, but I use it routinely on the weekends for 2-6 hours as allowed by circumstances.

Tim

[wayne999]

Tim468: How long have you been using the VED and what sort of results have you got?

[Hawk]

I would have to disagree that Traction and VED are not compatable.  I think they complement each other very well.  That is doubly so if ED is a factor.  The VED is great for drawing blood into the penis after a traction strap has been  on for a couple hours.  In fact it is good for oxygenating the penis right before and right after traction.  I would not however do an entire 3 cylinder protocol along with tractions nor would I use the VED over aggressively (with or without traction).

[Ptolemy]

I would have to disagree that Traction and VED are not compatable.  

I think you misread Tim.

I agree that the two are very compatible and as you state, I have recently found that light use of the VED before Traction makes for an easier and longer stretch.

[Tim468]

Ptolemy and Hawk - we all agree. I should not use double negatives...


Here is a literature download hot off the presses by Levine - it is the final writeup of his preliminary data. I added blod font about increased girth in areas of "waisting"...

**********************************

FA Levine, Laurence A.  Newell, Mark.  Taylor, Frederick L.
Department of Urology, Rush University Medical Center, Chicago,
 IL, USA. drlevine@hotmail.com
Penile traction therapy for treatment of Peyronie's disease: a single-center pilot study.
Journal of Sexual Medicine.  5(6):1468-73, 2008 Jun.
INTRODUCTION: Peyronie's disease (Peyronies Disease) is a fibrotic disorder of
 the penis whose etiopathophysiology remains unclear. At this time,
 there is no known reliable nonsurgical treatment. This study reviews
 our experience with external penile traction therapy to correct the
 deformity associated with this disorder.
AIM: To evaluate prolonged external penile traction as a nonsurgical treatment for Peyronies Disease.
METHODS:
 Ten men with Peyronies Disease completed this noncontrolled pilot study of traction
 therapy using the FastSize Penile Extender. Nearly all (90%) had
 failed prior medical therapy. Traction was applied as the only
 treatment for 2-8 hours/day for 6 months. All subjects underwent
 pre- and post-treatment physical examination including measurement
 of stretched flaccid penile length (SPL) and biothesiometry.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES:
 Curvature and girth were measured during erection
 before and after treatment with dynamic duplex ultrasound.
 Assessment of erectile and sexual function was further assessed with
 the International Index of Erectile Function and Quality of Life
 Specific to Male Erection Difficulties (QOL-MED) questionnaires. At
 3 and 6 months post-treatment, SPL was measured and subjective
 assessment of deformity by the patient was recorded.
RESULTS:
 Subjectively all men noted reduced curvature estimated at 10-40
 degrees, increased penile length (1-2.5 cm) and enhanced girth in
 areas of indentation or narrowing. Objective measures demonstrated
 reduced curvature in all men from 10-45 degrees; average reduction
 for the group was 33% (51-34 degrees). SPL increased 0.5-2.0 cm and
 erect girth increased 0.5-1.0 cm with correction of hinge effect in
 four out of four men. International Index of Erectile
 Function-erectile function domain increased from 18.3-23.6 for the
 group. Changes in quality of life by QOL-MED were not found to be
 statistically significant in this small series. There were no
 adverse events including skin changes, ulcerations, hypoesthesia or
 diminished rigidity.
CONCLUSION:
  Prolonged daily external penile traction therapy is a new approach for the nonsurgical treatment of
 Peyronies Disease. Further study appears warranted given the response noted in this
 pilot study.

[Hawk]

I did misread Tim's Post and we do all agree.

[Ptolemy]

I began Traction in January and stopped in June - 5 months. By June I was averaging 4 hours a day. I had rotator cuff surgery in June and stopped Traction completely. I need two hands for that exercise. In September I went back to it. As I have mentioned before, my bend has improved from 90 degrees at its worst to approximately 25 degrees. I plan to continue Traction for the next two months to make sure I get more than 6 months of treatment. 25 degrees is like a new world although it would be nice to continue to improve.

I use the Fast Size product and although the manual indicates the smallest links - the small axis and the minimum axis are .5cm and .3cm respectively, in fact they are .67cm and .33cm. It takes 3 small axis screwed together to equal the medium axis of 2cm.

What I have noticed during the months of use is the up and down nature of increasing lengths. I can work up to a new length and feel comfortable for 4 or 5 days and suddenly I can't tolerate that length. It is like my penis shrunk. I have to cut back as much as .67cm in order to feel comfortable again. Four of five days at that length and I can work back up to my maximum length, continue at the length for another 4 or 5 days and even increase another length.

Do others out there have a similar experience? The overall length increase has been a series of .67cm increases followed by .33cm or more decrease followed by another .67cm or more increase followed by .33cm or more decrease and so on. It is aways a little disconcerting when I have to cut back on the length of the stretch.

[Robert Allen]

90 Day Cure?

I posted a message so titled (copy below) on the BioSpecifics forum in November of 2004. As a result I was attacked and ridiculed by Barry "PDFTD" and others. I was accused of having ulterior motives and my notion of traction as an effective treatment for Peyronies was at that time dismissed.

Nonetheless, I designed and constructed a so-called traction belt from nylon webbing, surgical tubing, a hand-fabricated plastic tether and a plastic tension gauge. Additionally, I constructed and gave a couple of these away to forum members that had indicated an interest, with positive results reported.  Although a little cumbersome to wear, after a few more weeks wearing the prototype belt, I had realized enough improvement that I discontinued treatment and went on with my life. However, over the last couple of years a creeping return of the symptom has prompted me to improve and simplify my old traction system allowing for comfortable wear over twelve hours per day and has resulted in complete restoration within a few weeks.   And although I originally thought that traction should be accompanied with a collagen reducing drug such as Verapamil, I have not been able to demonstrate the need.

Checking in, I now see that traction has emerged as a mainstream topic on the forum.  BUT NO ONE SEEMS TO GET IT.  Fibroplasia (scar tissue life cycle) research reveals that improvement from traction is not due to physical "stretching".  It is due to scar tissue remodeling activity triggered by long term, low level tension on the scar tissue, promoting the body's natural repair process.  This explains drastic improvements in girth from purely longitudinal tension.  But, what is being described on this forum is torture not traction.  Four hours a day of multi-pound tension is ineffective. Indeed it may tend to promote additional and even more aggressive Fibrosis.  Traction (mild) should be tolerable for twelve hours or more per day, thereby triggering the remodeling of the scar tissue.  Pain should be avoided at all cost.  No matter how tough and pain tolerant you are, the nature of the Fibrosis is to respond to pain by developing a stronger and more voluminous scar patch on the Tunica Albuginea wall, the very phenomenon causing the syndrome.

Indicated soft traction to the penis for treatment of Peyronies is the very gentle long term application of under one pound of tension. This is impossible with the devices described on this topic. The Andro-Penis and its derivatives (FastSize etc.) employ short steel springs and deliver (according to my empirical measurements) from between 2.5 lbs to over 6 lbs of tension within a ½ inch compression range (ouch!).  Soft traction measured in ounces not pounds may only be delivered by a long soft spring such as small gauge surgical tubing.

Traction truly is a ninety day cure. If you keep your penis in mild traction for over twelve hours per day, you will realize significant results in just a couple of weeks. In fact, if I knew then what I know now and had not let myself be intimidated and sidetracked I would have quickly discovered and been able to share with the group what has become clear as I improved my home-brew system.  In case I have not driven the concept home yet, the key is elongation not stretching.  If you use a VED you should immediately follow-up with mild traction.   Otherwise you will experience a seesaw process as the scar tissue vacillates between the plastic and elastic reaction described in "THE JOURNAL OF ORTHOPAEDIC AND SPORTS PHYSICAL THERAPY Copyright ® 1987 by The Orthopaedic and Sports Physical Therapy Sections of the American Physical Therapy Association" and found at http://www.dynasplint.com/pdfs/Contracture.pdf which in pertinent part states:

Biophysical Effects of Stretching

When stretched, the connective tissue appears to be viscoelastic in nature. When a force is applied against the tissue and then removed, the tissue behaves as if it has both plastic and elastic properties. The elastic response is shown by recovery of the tissue to its original shortened position, while the plastic response is characterized by permanent elongation. Optimal plastic deformation of the tissue results with applications of long periods of low force stretch. The tissue slowly remodels because a biochemical response, triggered by constant force, results in a loosening and shifting of the fibers' connecting points within the tissue. By contrast, elongation of shortened connective tissue, through short periods of forceful stretching, relies upon attempt to mechanically break or tear the connecting points. Typically, with short periods of high force stretching, the result is a higher proportion of elastic response, less remodeling, and greater trauma and weakening of the tissue.

Additional studies show this phenomenon is even more pronounce when dealing with pure scar tissue as in Peyronie's.  

In the final analysis, I have developed a simple, cheap, machine washable, mild traction system attachable and detachable in seconds, totally undetectable, even standing at a public men's room urinal, and which may be left on while urinating. It can be comfortably worn over twelve hours per day and with no metal components can pass through courthouse and airport security without fear of detection.  I honestly cannot imagine any Peyronies sufferer wearing this system for a period of thirty days without realizing improvement in the fifty percent range.  Although infinitely superior to the other barbaric offerings on the market, in volume, this system could be profitably manufactured, marketed and supported for under fifty dollars ($50.00).

I am in the process of submitting my patent application and am filing an FDA 510(k) Class I medical device premarket notification form.  I am looking for 100 sufferers to use and report on their experience with hand crafted prototypes over a ninety day study period beginning within the next thirty days.  If you have any interest please email me at skepticists@yahoo.com and I will respond with complete details.

Robert Allen

<<
Date: 11/28/2004 12:32:41 AM

Subject: 90 Day Cure?

Name: Robert Allen

Email: skepticists@yahoo.com

I am a 51-year-old computer programmer / private investigator lurking on this forum for the last month. Early last year I developed Peyronie's disease. The first indication of any problem that I remember, was one night after intercourse, I noticed that my still erect penis pointed just slightly to the left but with no apparent curve. Some weeks later lumpiness appeared on the left side of the shaft just below the gland. This developed over the next few months to a sever indentation along the length of the left side of the shaft and a severe "45+ degree" curvature to the left. To add insult to injury the erect length was reduced by almost two inches.

A cursory search of the Internet suggested that it might go away on its own and that in any case I should wait a year and let it stabilize before doing anything other than taking 400 – 800 units a day of Vitamin E.

By August of this year my once proud penis seemed to be shriveling up and dying. In despair, I decided to take more aggressive action.

Before continuing, let me disclose that in support of what follows, I am at best, an uncredentialled engineer. I have no medical training, and of course there is a very distinct possibility that I don't know what the hell I am talking about.

I spent many hours searching the Internet for a cure. Many products and techniques were offered, some with purported statistical evidence of improvement over a six-month period. Two approaches that caught my eye were drug induced softening of the fibrosis, and physical therapy (traction). Although I found little on the simultaneous (coordinated) use of both, I came to the conclusion that this might be effective.

I purchased a $299.00 product called "FastSize" from AEA Network, Inc. FastSize is marketed primarily as a penis enlarging system, claiming to be medically approved and accepted in Europe, presumably safe and effective for it's designated use. When it arrived I noticed that AEA Network, Inc. had simply put its FastSize label over the original name "Andro-Penis" manufactured by Andro-Medical with Sales Headquarters in Spain. Later investigation indicated that many of AEA's competitors were simply private labeling the same product from Andro-Medical.

I then called PDLabs and requested that they provide the names of Urologist in my area (Palm Beach, FL) that were prescribing Topical Verapamil . I contacted one of the doctors listed, set up an appointment and with mild encouragement from the doctor, received a Topical Verapamil prescription. I then ordered a $270.00 one month supply of Topical Verapamil.

It occurred to me that the traction might be a very important part of the treatment. This seems to have been further corroborated by experiences documented on this and other forums.

The FastSize/Andro-Penis consists of two extendable metal shafts on either side of the penis extending from a base. I employed the device by extending the shaft on the left side (inner curve) further than the shaft on the right side and I applied the Topical Verapamil on the left side only. Although serious design deficiencies prevented me from accurately controlling (or even knowing) the traction force and also from wearing the device for as long a period as I felt necessary, after only 10 days I was seeing noticeable improvement.

Contrary to the claims of the manufacture, the device could not be discreetly worn under clothing and would not securely (or comfortably) hold on to the gland for very long. Additionally, the springs in the device were in my opinion too short, causing drastic (and painful) tension changes when performing such maneuvers as getting into your car.

I decided to look for a better traction device. After eliminating other suppliers of the same, or essentially the same device (copycats), I could find nothing else that provided the long term, discreet "mild" traction I was looking for.

It occurred to me that if I could design a better way of holding on to the gland, I could use surgical tubing (long mild spring) secured to a waist belt to provide the tension. My first prototype was made out of $25.00 of parts from Home Depot. I have continued to make improvements and have added a tension level indicator.

Additionally, I found Talon Pharmacy, and ordered a higher dose supply of Topical Verapamil at considerable savings from Will Shepard.

By the end of the first month of treatment, my deviation had been reduced by about fifty percent, as did my indentation. By the end of the second month by deviation and indentation had been reduced by another fifty percent. I am mid-way through my third month. I am wearing the traction device 6 to eight hours a day, applying the twenty percent strength Topical Verapamil three times a day and have recently added a ten minute morning sessions with a VED. I have about a ten-degree deviation left with slight indentation at the base. I have virtually regained my original length and girth, and am having strong erections for the first time in almost two years.

At the rate I am consuming the Topical Verapamil, it appears to be costing me about $75.00 per month. I am convinced that the Topical Verapamil or something equivalent (DMSO-ACV-Castor-Oil?) is an essential part of the treatment. I am scared that without the drug, even the low-level traction being employed would probably cause additional fibrosis.

Robert Allen
>>

[bodoo2u]

Robert,

You sound like Little Richard at the beginning of your post when you say that people weren't ready for what you had to say a few years ago, but just like the rock and roll pioneer, you were ahead of your time and you could still get your reward later on.

I'm shooting you an email at your yahoo account for the details. I look forward to hearing from you very soon. Thanks for sharing your information and discovery with us.

Bo

[Tim468]

Hi Robert,

I am glad that your name is "skeptic"... (s)

We all are. I like you r ideas and I am interested in what you have to say. It smacks a wee bit of promotion - though I do not begrudge you the right to get a patent for your ideas or to promote them.

Here, though, we really do try to discuss ideas fully and to submit our own theories to the thoughts of others. Thus, a cheap but slightly mysterious "cure-all" strikes me as promotional and not really in the spirit of open debate.

I do not know if you are even remotely interested in discussing your ideas. But I can say that your ideas will not get flamed here, and the craziness of the old boards is thankfully lacking here.

I already use a "gentle" traction system that I found via the web in a PE site. I don't know if it is working or not. But given the tendency of tension to lead to expression of TGF expression in vitro, it makes sense to be concerned that severe traction will not help. But I do not know that gentle traction does help (there is a case report of a VED leading to the development of Peyronie's when the vacuum was absurdly high) modified post

One thing that makes me curious though - despite your reasonable concerns regarding the Fastsize, it appears to have helped others. Do you think they were just lucky or doing it softer than you think they might have been able to (thus avoiding damage)?

Tim

[Ptolemy]

Gentle traction makes more sense to me than intense traction. Possible the results I've seen with FastSize is that I have always kept the traction well below any pain.

My biggest problem with FastSize is the equipment is too large to wear anywhere except at home alone. I'm ready to try an alternative.

[Robert Allen]

Tim

Nothing mysterious at all about the idea that traction should not be thought of as stretching, but rather as a trigger for the natural remodeling of the scar tissue.  Although clearly not a "cure-all" it does to appear to be an effective treatment for classic Peyronie's.  The notion that such mild traction could actually be "doing anything" seems to be a stretch (no pun intended) until about two weeks into the treatment when you begin to feel a mild ache at the location of the fibrosis and suddenly discover that your plaque is dissolving.

If you are using gentle traction system over twelve hours a day and have done so for more than two weeks, I would be very surprised if you did not know whether or not it was working.  I am always ready to engage in sincere intelligent debate about the subject. I am not familiar, and perhaps misunderstood your reference to what appears to be in vitro growth factor studies.  Please expand on this.

In their old advertisements FastSize claimed 30% improvement over a period of 9 months at 8 hours per day.  I submit that 8 hours per day with FastSize is impossible. The recent Levine study claimed traction was applied as the only treatment for 2–8 hours/day for 6 months with between 10% and 45% improvement.  I initially saw some improvement with FastSize but just like Ptolemy in his message it was up and down in a way that I now realize is caused by the viscoelastic nature of the connective tissue vacillating between its plastic and elastic properties due primarily to the.  With mild traction I improved 50% per month for 3 consecutive months.

Robert Allen

[Iceman]

OLDMAN - does this mean that the VED is pointless based on what has just been said - even more confusion here......!!!!!!

[Hawk]

Iceman, you are not new here?  How could one post by a name you never heard, that is selling a product, without one bit of verifiable evidence, get this response from you?

Iceman, please forgive the following sarcasm.  It is to illustrate a point only.  I hope it does.

Yes, the VED must be pointless.  Even though Angus and Old Man and many others have reported both measured and perceived improvement with the VED, a new member with no studies, no credentials, no specific education or training just established that they had no improvement.  He established that by saying it so it must be true.

His statement carries far more credibility than the many people here you have improved (none have worsened) using conventional traction.  Surely we have to objectively conclude that this post by someone selling a product caries more weight than Dr, Levine's pilot study in which 10 of 10 men improved with only conventional traction.

OK, enough sarcasm:

Iceman, I hope you and others will study this page http://www.peyroniessociety.org/evaluating.htm  Understanding these principles help people from being thrown off course with every anecdotal report, every sales pitch, every conclusion in every study.

Does this mean I reject everything that Robert said?  The answer is no, but I certainly do not embrace it as truth because he said it.  There is a lot of evidence to refute his conclusions.

[Robert Allen]

Sarcasm is the last refuge ...   sigh, Here we go again.

Hawk, as the administrator I would think it is your responsibility and certainly in your interest to at least give the appearance of evenhandedness.

You wish to debate my research, my findings, my conclusions ... Fine, Bring it on!

First let's agree on some facts:

You allege that I am selling a product.

   Fact: I have never charged one cent for the systems that I have provided to other forum members, not even reimbursement for shipping costs.  Although I am seeking a patent for an simple innovative tether with which to apply micro-tension to the penis, I do not at this time and may never have a product to sell.  It of course depends largely on the results of the study.

You allege (through your sarcasm) that I maintain that VED use is pointless.

   Fact: I generally agree in regard to effect, with the mainstream VED findings of the elders in this group, however, I have additional, possibly differing conclusions as to cause.  Generally, I find VEDs a form of traction with the same concerns regarding the viscoelastic nature of the connective tissue vacillating between its plastic and elastic properties due primarily to the amount of tension applied.  Additionally, the nature of vacuum on any organ naturally causes extreme migration of the many circulatory agents effecting the multiple stages of healing to the site.  I am concerned and have witnessed evidence that this may exacerbate the formation of excessive scar tissue.  Once again this is largely dependent on the amount of force applied.

You seem to find Dr. Levine and his study above reproach. http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/120089859/PDFSTART

   Fact: Laurence Levine is the number one listing on the advisory board of FastSize.  As I am sure he is compensated for this position either directly or indirectly, he in fact does have a product to sell and according to your earlier assertion, his credibility should be questioned.  And I agree.  According to reports his study employed 10 patients using FastSize from between 2 and 8 hours per day (a 400% differential) for six months.  No requirement or measurement was made as to the amount of tension applied in the study.  I am maintaining that this may in fact turn out to be the most important variable and in Levine's study it was completely ignored.

Levine's study claimed results of between 10% and 45% improvement over a six month period.  I am willing to bet $1,000.00 that in a controlled study 10 Peyronie's sufferers simply tucking their penises between their legs in the opposite direction of the bend for twelve hours a day would obtain a better result in only three months. This by the way is a good idea for those not following up with other traction after a VED session.  

Levine's study's only discussion of the cause

"The mechanisms responsible for change in penile dimension during traction therapy have not been studied, but in other tissue models it does appear that chronic traction causes soft tissue cellular proliferation, not just along the axis of the mechanical force. This results in tissue growth in a multiplanar fashion. Cellular mitosis and an increase in extra cellular matrix density in response to prolonged traction have been reported and are thought to be a reflection of tissue adaptation to chronic mechanical forces."

does not contemplate the nature of granulation tissue, collagen or scar tissue remodeling and is therefor unlikely to be valid.

By the way, how do you think sales of a company promising inches of penis growth in healthy users of their system was effected by Dr. Levine's involvment.  How is he compensated?  Although I am unimpressed by licensed professionals in general, Dr. Levine's involvement with this area particularly smacks of condescension.

But what the hell.  Let's undermine the fine work you and others have done in this patient driven forum and revert back to the days of tribute to the government corrupted, treatment driven, cure eschewing medical industry.

In the mean time consider the possibility that 90% improvement or better may be possible by simply applying enough traction to trigger the body's natural scar remodeling response.

Robert Gibson

[Ptolemy]

The vacuum is formed in a small plastic cup. The head of the penis is enclosed in a formfitting silicone rubber cap, that fits, in turn, into the plastic cup. Then a blue silicone sleeve is rolled onto both of them to trap the rubber cap in the plastic cup - it holds on due to a small vacuum.. The silicone rubber cap can go unused, but guys tend to get swollen in the tip as fluid gathers there. The rubber silicone "cap" prevents fuid buildup and allows much longer wear.

I attached a picture. It shows the blue silicone sleeves that roll over the plastic cup, the yellowish colered silicine rubber cap that goes directly on the head of the penis, and the attachment that can be used to connect all of it to a traction device (or it can be worn strapped down to the leg like a side arm!). I find that option more usable for longer term traction (I can wear one into work).

I have attached a picture of this stuff. Also provided is a link to the web page that has a video of it being used (on a fake rubber penis - but still not safe for work!).

Tim

http://www.autoextender.com/instructions.html

Tim, is this the Traction device that you are using? If so, can you wear this comfortably around the office or in public? How many hours a day could you wear this comfortably? This possibly plus what Robert Allen suggests warrants consideration.

I feel I have more to gain with conservative application of Traction. I'd like to find something a little less obvious to wear than FastSize. I did finally find for me the noose better than the strap which is different than most conclude. I purchased the Simolex Band which I can wear bareback on the FastSize with comfort.

[Hawk]

Robert Allen,

I never even replied to your post.  Were you reading between the lines

I responded to a post of another valued forum member with announced sarcasm to illustrate the pitfall of accepting on face value the claim of a single unknown entity that offered no verifiable evidence.  That would apply to me, you , or any person here.  You seem rather defensive and fearful of perceived rejection.  I have had much livelier back and forth discussion of issues with my dearest friends on this forum.  No need to be defensive.

I have no interest in sparring and in fact won't, so read my posts carefully and do not ascribe to me motives or conclusions you know nothing about.  If you were familiar with me or my posts you would know that I do not

find Dr. Levine and his study above reproach.

I have posted a list of questions and concerns about that study more than once on this forum.  I do find Dr. Levine to be honorable however and will continue to give him and you that benefit of a doubt until a verifiable body of evidence is presented to the contrary.  

Although I am unimpressed by licensed professionals in general, Dr. Levine's involvement with this area particularly smacks of condescension.

I think condesention is the wrong word since it does not fit the sentence but in any event, present you facts, do not attack Dr. Levine on our forum.  Next, if you intend to use our forum to solicit participation of forum members, common courtesy would dictate that you would have made some contact with the forum leadership to explain your intent.

Now back to the issue at hand: You directly stated that

Traction truly is a ninety day cure. If you keep your penis in mild traction for over twelve hours per day, you will realize significant results in just a couple of weeks.

No one, you me, Tim, Dr. Levine can make such an absolute statement such as that on this forum and not be called to task to present the clinical proof to back it up.  I ask for yours.  It is beyond bold for you to announce that every Peyronies Disease sufferer will respond to the system but offer no objective trials supporting such conclusions.  Either you forgot to post the clinical data for universal response of patients or you meant to say that you think most individuals will benefit based on your limited experience with the system.  That is a perfectly interesting and honorable statement that anyone could take seriously.  If however you have evidence to back-up your actual statement I welcome it.

If you are not selling a product or seeking a profit (which by the way is an honorable and accepted practice),  why not post a photo of the device or a sketch of the applied apparatus?  

[Tim468]

Ptolemy,

I do use the system invented and made by "MonkeyBar" who is available through a website that includes the words auto and extender combined to make one word! A caveat, though. He is far from "professional" - he is clearly a tinkerer who is interested in penis enlargement who has access to materiel and a shop such as is used by a physical therapist making orthotic devices (parenthetically, a simple web search of his business let me know that he is in the same place as an orthotics manufacturer).

So if you order from him be ready for poor communication and fitful service. Nevertheless, I think he is a poor business man who makes fairly good stuff.

I imagine that what he makes is similar to what Robert is talking about. There are numerous "All Day Stretchers" that allow the tug to be applied longitudinally to the penis over a long time, at low pressure. I do not like to wear it tugging my penis off to the side - I prefer to use a leg strap - kinda like strapping down a six-shooter!

Robert (not sure if your last name is Allen or Gibson):

I share many of your concerns about Levine and the potential for him to muddy the waters for financial gain. He could be a member of the board of Fastsize because he really believes in the product, or he could be a cravenly greedy doc - I have no clue. I note that the person who is the medical director and head of the "Andropenis" PE device is also a doctor (in Spain), and so it goes... For a company to get a doc to endorse their product lends a note of authority to their claims of an ability to enlarge a penis.

But I don't quite know why you are disparaging him. That is sort of the pot calling the kettle black, to me. You have a device that is probably not radically different than the others one can find. There will be a way of affixing the tensioner to the end of the penis, and a strain gauge to measure force, and a way to tether it to the body (either pulling laterally or down the leg (I will pass on the putting it through my legs for the "Mangina" look - I will want to walk during my day!)

It ain't rocket science...

What we need are controlled studies. I appreciate your efforts to enroll participants in a study, but what exactly do you plan to do? How will you measure baseline and post-study angulation and length? Who will measure it? Who will serve as a control group? Can you imagine a way to blind the study?

See? It gets hard. I know, because I do clinical studies in lung disease and it can be a struggle to enroll patients, to blind it, and to gather valid data.

So, yeah, Levine has ten patients and no control group and a probable conflict of interest. But, as I said, I am interested in talking about ideas, not name calling.

As for the study you referenced. It was a case study without controls and was written over 23 years ago. There are more current papers to refer to. I would suggest that you read the literature on "tissue expansion" in the plastic surgery literature. In general, at least when it comes to skin and muscle, there is not an proliferation of cells, instead there is a literal stretching of tissue and a thinning of cell density; there may be some increased vascularity in skin and muscle. Bone does regenerate better and can grow "new bone". Liver does too; heart does but not as well. So what happens to tissue over time with an applied force (ie the "hypertrophy" of a heart under strain is enlargement and some new muscle cells) varies by cell type.

The TGF story is easy to find - google "TGF force stretch" and you will find
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1224061
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/277/5/G1074

This one talks about a theory of how cyclic stretch can trigger release of TGF and enhance VEGF production
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16986561

http://www.pedresearch.org/pt/re/pedresearch/abstract.00006450-200107000-00002.htm;jsessionid=LRPJzjKQqMvKrQG8QCs3hyQqBGvQQ24bpXXmQg6ply1228LTdT81!1589587030!181195629!8091!-1

Since all of these studies show that stretch increases TGF Beta 1 expression, and since TGF is involved in the causation of Peyronie's, I think that the question is really one of finding mechanisms that lead to healing and those that lead to harm.

I think the whole viscoelastic thing you talk about is interesting but overly simplistic in that it ignores modulating factors that cause changes in the quality of elastance and compliance.

But your argument for longer periods of time, stretching at low tension, make perfect sense to me and others here, I am sure. Maybe if you toned down your style a bit, you might find others more receptive to your ideas. I personally tend to find an "I have it all figured out" approach to be off-putting. Perhaps that is not what you mean to sound like, but that is what I heard. I hope you stick around long enough to hear what we have to say as well.  

Tim

ps - when you write things like: "BUT NO ONE SEEMS TO GET IT. ", you do know, I suppose, how that might seem a bit insulting to those of us who scour the literature and who actually, in many (though never in all ways) do get it? Kinda annoyed me, frankly...

[jackisback]

Robert, I emailed you, hope it didn't hit your spam.

I like the sound of this device due to its decreased tension and ability to wear during the day. While the words from Dr. Levine's mouth have always sounded sincere and legit to me, and I would be grateful if i ever had an appointment with him, there's no doubt there's something unsettling about lending one's name and credibility to a device that makes the bulk of its money from increase your penis pitches, and citing studies that use an amount of time that very few have the ability to apply (therefore if the product doesn't work for you, you can always assume that you just didn't use it enough).

I respect the other members of this forum, particularly those who have been critical of your posts. But to me, your posts sound like a man who has stumbled upon something that helped you and could help others, and if I found something that effectively cured me, I would be downright evangelical about it. In my experience, many of the best forms of treatments for medical ailments are not the ones given to you in a doctor's office. I think it is generally accepted that we live in a culture where a pill is the solution to everything, even if there are obviously better treatments (restless leg syndrome comes to mind). If someone like you stumbles on a good form of treatment you're obviously not going to have the budget of a medical facility or a business planning to make $350 on each unit sold to do a scientific study on it. I think this forum is an obvious first choice to go to in order to get some feedback from other users about your method of treatment, and although your science may all be wrong and/or your product may do nothing, I personally have a lot more confidence in its possible benefits/practicality/low-risk than I do with the big name, doctor backed, seemingly purposely incomplete study supported name brands, and would be interested in trying your approach.

If not, I may try this other one Tim referenced, and just hope that I will see more noticeable results than he did.

[wayne999]

Is there some device that will gently apply traction but that you could wear with normal clothes? i.e. can walk in outside?

the recent posts have been confusing and i'm not sure if to start with VED now??

[Robert Allen]

Hawk,

I would like to think that my "sparring" is limited to ideas not individuals. If I've crossed the line I apologize. I do not know and have no personal opinion of Laurence Levine the individual.  I only raise credibility questions in response to assertion that my ideas and experiences have less merit than his, simply due to the "Dr." in front of his name.

I am not aware of any other mechanism to "contact" forum leadership to explain my intent. So let me do so here. I "intend" to bring my ideas and discoveries to the group, remaining  prepared to defend them.  I "intend" to initiate a study within the next 30 days to determine if my small sample success, notwithstanding a its rational explanation, is a fluke.  I also hope to determine if the resulting product costs and patent protection are compatible with the market to the point of building a profitable side business.

Along those lines, the raw material and manufacturing costs of my design are expected to come in under twenty dollars, leaving it difficult to justify an end user price of more than fifty dollars.  After selling cost and controllables, that leave optimistically fifteen dollars net contribution to overhead, thus requiring many thousands of customers to make this a desirable enterprise.  This of course ignores possible government incursion or other liabilities.  If and when the group is satisfied with the efficacy of the product (working name "P-Tether") maybe there would be interest in making it a forum project.  Just a thought.

I have reviewed the context of what you have referred to as "an absolute statement" and believe that a preceding IMHO is implied and that saying it each time would be pandering. I have also reviewed my use and the definition of condescention - "voluntary assumption of equality with a person regarded as inferior" and stand by its use.

Just because pursuing Magic Bullets is usually fruitless, doesn't mean that occasionally, at least statistically, they do exist. The eureka moment for me was not when after two weeks of mild traction I began to see four years of plaque disappear, but was finding research to explain it.  This has led me to ask why Dr. Levine (and others) knowing he was dealing with scar tissue, explained his study from the standpoint of healthy tissue.

There are many, many dissertations and studies concerning tension and its effect on scar remodeling.  I do not yet have them compiled in presentable form, but Google words such such as - scar tissue remodeling tension collagen fibroblast and apoptosis in various combinations for additional insight.

Robert

[Robert Allen]

Tim,

I slipped and inadvertently typed my last name.  This same error caused a major attack by Barry a couple of years ago requiring me to "prove" my identity and that I actually am a private investigator, again attacking me rather than my positions.  I usually use my middle name in this forum, allowing me to easily separate incoming business email and avoiding "sorry about your dick" comments in my regular profession.

As I mentioned to Hawk in a preceding message I am not disparaging Dr. Levine. I am however questioning his credibility as to the Peyronie's / FastSize / traction question.

TGF resolves to many possibly pertinent topics.  The ones you mention "Transforming Growth Factor" look interesting, but to me do look like rocket science and I would appreciate any further explanation, especially concerning relevance to the "heartache of fibrosis" i.e. Peyronie's.

As traction now seems to be accepted as an effective treatment on this forum, are you suggesting that reducing the amount of tension might lead to additional harm? (rhetorical)

Viscoelastic is a summarizing expression and is by definition simplistic.  The other more technical issues you raise seem to be well defined and researched as to normal tissue.  I am suggesting that the rules change when dealing with scar tissue.

The only thing worse that an "I have it all figured out" approach is a "no one can figure it out" resignation.  "NO ONE SEEM TO GET IT" should by implication be  prepended with "IN MY HUMBLE OPINION", and is a display of my frustration that the learned professionals don't seem to be acknowledging that we are dealing with scar tissue here, and once again the rules are different than with normal tissue.  Sorry if I annoyed you.

Robert

[Robert Allen]

JackIsBack,

I have received 16 responses with interest in the study.  None are identified as jackisback or match the email address on your profile.  Please resend with
"jackisback" in the message somewhere.  I am planning to respond to everyone with details by the end of next week with a simple confirmation email prior to that.

I don't think it matters which micro-tension system you use as long as you are able to use it for more than twelve hours per day.  My personal observation is that the tension should be enough to keep the penis elongated but no more than one pound.   It is really easy to over do it, because initially two or three pounds feels comfortable and is tolerable for an hour or so but according to the theory I subscribe to the response to this short term tension can be elastic rather than plastic, at the very least limiting progress.

Thanks for your expression of support.

Robert

[Tim468]

I think a working definition for condescension is: "Patronizingly superior behavior or attitude."

Words we type can often give the wrong impression.

Robert, you may be on to something, but I do not personally think it is terribly revolutionary, in that no one has ever done it. The issue we face is HOW do we apply long term tension; I think that many of us here (but not all) have shown that traction via device or the VED works. So the issue is how much and how long.

In terms of tissue remodelung, the long term application of traction does not do much to enlarge a normal penis - the men obsessed with that endeavor seem to favor larger than what I consider healthy amounts of tension to make gains.

For us with Peyronie's, though, the concern is that too much will harm - so this is a very important thing to figure out as best we can. However, without the study design that one would need, you are unlikely to be able to prove much without a control group - even historical controls or individuals acting as their own controls (which is what Levine just did in his recent paper).

I look forward to hearing what people think about your device and how it feels and works. I assume that you shall not place any prohibition against speakiong freely about it here for those who use it, right?

Tim

[Hawk]

I welcome your participation on the forum and welcome you as a member.  Hopefully our abrupt introduction is behind us.

As far as Levine associating himself with FastSize.  I too question that but, I do not and will not likely ever believe that he would falsify a pilot study for his own gain.  Unlike many, I do not consider profit or money  a dirty word.  I have no problem with anyone exchanging something of value for a fair sum assuming they accurately represent the product.  I think a doctor is no different.  If he see results from this and says, "hey, this is a legitimate product to put my support behind, that is fine.  He has to weigh that it does at least raise questions of objectivity which may be why he calls on others to follow-up on his preliminary study.  he has seen enough to be convinced in his own practice, now someone else can design a study worthy of peer reveiw.  Much of this is speculation but it is speculation that gives the benefit of the doubt to a man that has earned at least that.

I give you the same benefit.  If you make money as a result of forum member involvement and being given a voice here, so be it, as long as you represent your intentions and your device fairly.

Like Tim, I see traction harnesses all over the internet.  The only issue is the amount of pull and whether it is weights, a strap, a fastSize type device, or even a VED.  It is difficult to be real original.  Since I have personal experience with traction, I know traction can restore length, and seemingly improve erections and girth.  Because of limitations, I think any study you attempt will come under the heading of multiple anecdotal accounts.  That is certainly of some value.

If you need to contact me or care to contact me we have private message function here and my email is on my profile.

Hawk

[Robert Allen]

Tim,

According to Dictionary.com:

1. an act or instance of condescending.
2. behavior that is patronizing or condescending.
3. voluntary assumption of equality with a person regarded as inferior.

I haven't claimed micro-tension to be revolutionary. To the contrary, given all of the research and studies available on scar tissue, I am amazed it is not obvious to medical professionals involved with Peyronie's and an active topic of debate on this forum, .

I believe that micro-traction should be applied for over twelve hours per day until satisfied with the results. Viscerally, I believe that twelve hours per day is infinitely better than six hours per day but eighteen hours per day is only marginally better than twelve hours per day.

The problem with a VED as a sole source of traction is that it is not maintainable and should not be maintained for the required period due to the side effects in a vacuum immersed organ.

The tissue remodeling to which am referring is unique to scar tissue and largely does not apply to normal tissue.  It may not apply at all to the "give me a bigger dick" guys. Although, I suspect micro-tension would be better for them too, but for different reasons. (another time, another place)

I have no problem with Dr. Levine's study, as long as we accept it for what it is.

Given the dialogue in the traction topic at the time, I jumped in sooner than I planned.  This study is still in the planning stage.  I would invite suggestions. It necessarily will not be near as formal as Dr. Levine's, but given the short term claims should be more conclusive when completed.   My current thought is that there would be a quiet period, maybe not the full 90 day period. I have a few more days to make up my mind on this. In any event how would I enforce it?

Robert

[Robert Allen]

Hawk,

Thank you for your cordial welcome and please, let me make myself clear.  I have not, and do not, accuse Dr. Levine of falsifying anything.  Nothing I have read in the study appears to be anything but accurate and unremarkable.  Further, I am thankful that he has entered the arena and appreciate the potential downside this poses to his career.

Even if I am wrong and my results and experiences are completely exceptional, the exercise will further the quest more than backslapping congeniality.  Dr. Levine may discover the cure as a result of pursuing the evidence to kick my irreverence ass.

As to the financial side, nobody needs to buy my product to introduce micro-tension.  There are infinite ways to do this.  It is much more difficult to introduce macro-tension such as with FastSize, requiring a metal frame with machined parts.   Assuming the micro-traction choice, the only reason for anyone to chose my  system over others available would be through a contest of simplicity, price and mechanical effectiveness.  I believe this is too small a market to be fiercely contested.

Given the claims, wouldn't multiple positive anecdotal accounts be fantastic?

Robert

[j]

Robert, I remember quite well your original postings on the old forum. It made sense to me then, and it makes sense now.  Long-term, low-force traction has already shown results with Dupuytren's contracture.  Check out this device:
  http://www.handbiolab.com/digitwidget.html

It may look like a medieval torture device, but what it does is apply continuous traction force. Not just 8 hours a day, either - it's screwed into the bone.  They claim it can straighten a finger in a matter of weeks.

I know about the FastSize and other extenders, and for me, it's just not going to happen. I lead a physically active life and those devices are just too bulky, uncomfortable and noticeable.  I've thought for a long time that a better solution could be created using soft materials like elastomer and closed-cell foam, but have never quite figured it out.  I think there are several reasons why the FastSize is what it is, but one of them might be that a company can only make money in this small market by selling a device costing hundreds; therefor the device must look like it should cost hundreds, with substantial, machined metal and plastic parts.

Your postings however will remain controversial because - since you're seeking a patent - you're not actually showing us your solution to this problem.

[Hawk]

I think a piece of duct tape and a "C" flashlight battery would do the trick.  The battery is about the right weight.  Or, A condom and a "C" battery in the end.  

I jest, but the only puzzle to stretching devices is how to grip the penis.  I think attaching the elastic or weight is simplistic.

I also think that a light stretch can easily be had with a conventional traction device and it can easily be worn 8 hours a day if you are home in sweat clothes.

[Tim468]

As a colleague said in a recent talk, "the plural of 'anecdote' is 'anecdotes', not 'randomized double-blinded clinical trials' (or RCT).

Nevertheless, what George said applies here too, I think. We are all different and some will respond to micro-tensioning and some will not. But anecdotal evidence here about the VED and the Fastsize and Pentox has driven use and now the recommendation for use by urologists. What is interesting is that this is being driven by patients and not researchers (especially the traction device use).

The Chinese did not learn about herbal medicine with RCTs - they learned by trial and error and paying attention over centuries. But for a rare disease, I think the web is doing something unique and amazing - it is compressing the process of trial and error and making it accessible to many others in real time, so that a sense of utility can be gained quickly.

Here, simply by asking, we hear that most have not been helped by injections of Verapamil, or by iontophoresis of Verapamil. Now a few years later, the literature says the same thing - that early promising data has not been borne out.

Here, we have shared that the VED helps, and now some urologists are trying them to help prevent shrinkage after prostatectomy of Peyronie's repair surgery.

Here we have talked about the benefits of the traction devices, and now Levine is publishing data.

I think that for rare diseases in particular, the docs are going to be scrambling to play catchup with what patients are trying out on their own - with the exception of designer drugs.

So, I would be interested in how longer term traction works compared to something else.... probably shorter term traction using the VED. Most of us are going to make a choice and try something and if it does not work, then try another thing. Therefore you are unlikely to get people who are virginal when it comes to trials of something. It is more likely that you will get men who have already failed the VED or something like that. This means that you would get a group of men LESS likely to succeed in traction, than if you enrolled men fresh out of the blocks, so to speak.

Getting men with defined scar tissue and a palpable plaque might make it easier to study - but then men like me with dents might want to do it too. Studying men with a minor deviation will lessen the likelihood of finding an improvement compared to studying men with a large deviation. So designing who is included is really important to be able to make a proof of principal study.

I would study men with a palpable plaque, with a 45 to 90 degree bend, no pain or active disease and no clotting disorders. I would study them for 90 days. If you expect an improvement that is greater than two standard deviations greater than that found randomly, then as few as 4-5 subjects will do. If the degree of difference you desire to detect is smaller (ie 1/2 a SD of normal variance), then you need an n of about 100. So expecting large improvements makes the power greater, but easier to get a negative study. For instance you could get7/10 guys getting 20 degrees better and it would not be significant against a typical control group (wherein some might get better spontaneously).

If 10 men out of 15 got improvements of 45+ degrees, it would mean a lot to me!

Tim

[Robert Allen]

J

http://www.handbiolab.com/digitwidget.html

If this works as advertised and Dupuytren's is essentially the same malady as Peyronie's why hasn't anybody put two and two together yet.  This is very encouraging for me and tends to confirm my experience.  If you recall I originally thought that a collagen reducing agent such as Verapamil was an important part of a traction regime.  I now know that the most important part of the regime is the length of continuous traction, which I believe required to be over twelve hours a day.  I no longer think that the Verapamil is important as my most significant advances have been made without it.

As I have stated, my system is not important to effective treatment and so my theory should not be controversial.  The only advantage I envision for my system is cost and comfort.  The only "secret" I am withholding at this point is the exact tether mechanism. And I will begin shipping the system to the study participants within a couple of weeks.  I can live with the controversy until then.

Thanks for your support.

Robert

[Tim468]

I have used simple athletic foam memory tape that we use for athletic wrapping.

http://www.findtape.com/category/athletic-tape-rolls-of-sports-tape-stretch-hospital-tape.aspx

One could do a simple not too tight wrap around the head and then attach an elastic strap to it and then to a belt around the waist. The "All day stretcher" (the so called ADS system) is a very commonly discussed concept in all the penis enlargement sites, with numerous designs available. It seems that the commonly accepted wisdom there (though perhaps wrong) is that gains are not great, but that it helps to maintain gains made in other more aggressive ways.

Here are several designs:

http://www.autoextender.com/autoadh.html

These folks have similar thoughts:
http://www.staticstretcher.com/products.html

http://free-penis-enlargement-videos.thundersplace.org/simple-ads.html (need to register as member)

There are others but this should give an idea of other similar systems.

Tim

[Robert Allen]

Hawk,

<<
I think a piece of duct tape and a "C" flashlight battery would do the trick.  The battery is about the right weight.  Or, A condom and a "C" battery in the end.  

I jest, but the only puzzle to stretching devices is how to grip the penis.  I think attaching the elastic or weight is simplistic.

I also think that a light stretch can easily be had with a conventional traction device and it can easily be worn 8 hours a day if you are home in sweat clothes.
>>

Hawk, have you had, like a couple of beers?  You're completely out of character.  Actually, I am sitting at my neighborhood bar and I've had a couple of beers.  Maybe your message will look perfectly normal tomorrow.

In any event, how do you obtain light traction from a device that can only deliver traction from between two and a half and six pounds of traction over a one half inch length?

Robert

[Tim468]

To my knowlege, ALL of the "All Day Stretchers" (ADS) systems struggle with the same issues:

1) Attachement to the penis - tight enough to grip, but soft enough to not cause perfusion problems to the skin or tissue damage. This is not an easy problem to solve! A very gentle traction would make a vice like grip less necessary, but over time the grip slides off. Therefore a vacuum attachment of some sort (even just a "seal" as one gets with a lubricated condom) might work.

2) Tug it... where? - A brace sitcks out no matter what the design. A leg strap shows when you sit. A waist strap pulls it to the side too high, so that it gets in the way of a waist on the pair of pants.

All the rest is just details, IMHO.

While soaking in the tub, I have come up with about 4 different designs for an ADS but I have not felt the need to make one. Let's hope we get another design that works well enough to help men get better.

Tim

[Ptolemy]

Here are several designs:

These folks have similar thoughts:
http://www.staticstretcher.com/products.html

Tim, I also appreciate your contribution to this forum as has been mentioned recently.

This particular design you highlighted has tremendous appeal to me. I have used the FastSize for 5 months, plan to continue for 2 more months and that will be about all I will be able to handle as I move out of "work at home" to "work in the office." Even if I stayed at home longer I don't think I'm up to the discomfort and maintenance required with an extender. What is appealing about the above link is 1) light duty stretching and the more gentle nature this would have on my penis and 2) the ability to wear this in public.

I have not read enough material to know what advantages/disadvantages a light stretch has compared to a heavy duty stretch like the FastSize. Also, are these appliances as comfortable and usable as is specified? I am assuming the light duty stretching is the technique that Robert Allen prefers.

Has anyone tried the light duty stretch or equivalent? The documentation suggests flaccid length increase. Will this result in a longer/larger erection? Is there any documentation out there in addition to Robert Allen feedback on the impact of a light stretch on plaque?

[Tim468]

Ptolemy,

I think that the Fastsize data are designed to be "low tension" traction. The problem is that they vary with position quite a bit and can thus transiently give increased tension. Overall, I think the idea of any system is to not damage things! Where the rub lies is in determining what the "optimal" tension or pounds of pressure to bear is. [modified]

Tim

[LWillisjr]

Speaking from experience, the Fastsize can be an "in between" traction device. Dr. Levine told me to wear it toa comfortable strectch. You do not have to be to the point of the springs under constant compression. Unless you are familiar with the device it is difficult to explain. I adjusted the length of the arms so that it was comfortable for me and that the springs were just starting to compress beyond their natural resting position. I did increase the tension eventually as I became more comfortable with wearing it.

The Fastsize demo and instructions encourage you to tolerate more tension, as they are really marketing the device to lengthen the penis. I did pick up a centimeter or so in length after about 6 months of wearing it.

[Robert Allen]

Tim,

Two things lead me to believe that the the FastSize devices were never designed to be low tension.  One, the springs employed are incapable of delivering anything less than about 3 pounds and that assumes less than 1/8 of an inch of compression. And two, the springs only compress a total 1/2 inch and that takes over 6 pounds.  By the way, foot-pounds is measurement of torque or work, not tension.  I believe that the optimal tension is less than 1 pound.

L. Wills,

I was one of the early Peyronie's purchasers of FastSize three years ago.  I am familiar and have made extensive measurements of the unit I purchased.  Unless they have changed the unit design recently, it is impossible for it to provide a comfortable stretch.  It is possible to provide a comfortable hold, at the length of zero compression.  Unfortunately, getting in or out of a car will defeat that.

[Hawk]

The X4 traction device seems to compress with 1.5 lbs of force and fully compress with 3.5 pounds of force as estimated by simply placing weight on the device when it is held upright.

I would not however recommend these devices be worn during physical activity that requires changing positions frequently or rapidly.

[Robert Allen]

Hawk,

This seems consistent with their advertising, offering tension ranging from 1,600 grams (3.527 lbs.), 1,800 grams (3.968 lbs.) and 2,100 grams (4.630 lbs.).  The interesting part is that the higher tension units are higher priced respectively, implying that the greater the tension, the higher the performance.  Once again I believe that this is a tragic fallacy.  Long soft springs  delivering under 453.59 grams (1 lbs.) are the ticket.

[shrout]

I have received 16 responses with interest in the study [ ............ ] I am planning to respond to everyone with details by the end of next week with a simple confirmation email prior to that.

Anyone know what's happened to Robert Allen? He posted the above on 18th September. I was one of the 16 to respond and I'm still awaiting details. Has anyone else received them? Robert appears to have gone AWOL.

Thanks.  

[young25]

Hey Shrout,

I also was amongst the 16 but havnt revcd any information from Robert...

[Robert Allen]

Sorry guys.

On September 16,  I indicated that I was looking for 100 sufferers to use and report on their experience with hand crafted prototypes over a ninety day study period beginning within thirty days.  Subsequently, as only 20 people showed an interest, I thought I would be able to accelerate the time schedule and indicated by email that I expected to ship by October 1st.  However, very recent improvements in the system required additional material that will not arrive for a few more days yet.  Additionally, my business required me to be out of town for the last couple of days keeping me from updating the group as I should have.  I am now planning to ship by October 13.  As a fellow sufferer, I appreciate the significance of this missed commitment and deeply apologize.

Robert

[Robert Allen]

I have responded to all parties indicating an interest in participating in my study and have announced that I am ready to ship the study kits.  Anyone not receiving a conforming message in response to your indication of interest, please contact me at skepticists@yahoo.com.

Robert

[Tim468]

I prefer to not be referred to as a "sufferer" of Peyronie's. Although it sometimes hurts me, and I am occasionally frustrated, frightened or angry, I tend to not suffer.

Tim

[Robert Allen]

Do you have an alternative moniker in mind?

Robert

[Tim468]

Robert,

For me, "Tim" works just fine.

Seriously, my point is that to suffer is a choice. I have no choice about whether or not I have Peyronie's Disease, but I can control and grow in how I feel about myself.

I think this is why many with cancer prefer to not be called "victims" of cancer, and why so many are turned off by the treatment of kids with Muscular Dystrophy by Jerry Lewis as "pitiful".

We become what we call ourselves. So, I choose to not call myself a victim or sufferer. I invite you to try the same - and whatever other term fits, use that.

Tim  

[tes]

So what brand of traction device is recommende?  Is the Andropenis device reputable?