Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease

[Iceman]

dr herazy - I reckon that you are a total rip off merchant peddling the same BS lines across all your marketing material - across your websites + now on this site - mate ive used the VED and its been great - I stopped using the VED over Xmas as I was overseas and did notice that the difference in size and curvature when I came back and resumed my VED usage - I have bought some of your BS waste of money products and zip happened v- you are a total FU**ing leachg mate!!

Be honest for once - the only reason you knock the VED is because you DONT SELL the ved - blind freddy can see this!!

OK so my advise to you mr herazy  ( cause your aint no doc) is to go back to that hole you crawled out of keep your tin pot sales spiel to yourself - and if I ever hear from you again Im personally going to fly to the states and kick your front teeth in!!!

[Tim468]

Dr Herazy,

1) You do charge a lot of money for A) items available for a lot less money (ie vitamin E) and B) of completely unproven efficacy (I.e. nattokinase).

2) You have now heard from an MD who uses the VED (me).

3) Regarding your arguments about the VED, I used to believe most of them as well. In particular, the issue of where the stretching is applied, and hence where the change occurs. However, if the stretch is differentially applied to the normal tissue and it thus becomes longer or of greater girth and the scar does not, the net effect is still straightening. In my case, straightening with a dent (where the scar is). In my book, that is still better than a 45 degree curve. It makes for good debate, but the effect is still the same.

As hokey as it is (it is just a starting point, not a religious dogma), the use of three cylinders is important. I personally think that the narrow cylinder, which effectively applies a longitudinal stretch to the penis, is the most important.

Overuse or abuse of the VED leading to Peyronie's is documented in the literature. The pressures applied (when written up in the medical literature) are amazingly high. Perhaps common sense is not common - I agree with you about the ways men make mistakes when it relates to the penis.

Finally - Old Man has found a successful way to deal with his Peyronies Disease. I am not so sure that he is still "in the fight for recovery". I think it might be better to say, "Isn't it grand that you found a pathway to recovery and are willing to share it with others"

"For free", I would add.

Tim

[Tim468]

My mailbox is now open again - thanks for letting me know it was full.

I have tried traction as well as the VED and found that the VED worked well enough (though not perfectly) and the traction - for me - caused a little trauma at the "pinch point" where the sling attached. I have used two different devices types for traction and found both to be too cumbersome for me to make time for.

Tim

[zeppo]

Has anyone tried Dr. Herazy's stretching method?  If so, does it work?
Thanks in advance.
Zeppo.  

[GS]

I have been using it for about 6 months; I honestly don't think it helped much, if any.

I started the 3 cylinder VED 2 weeks ago and it seems to be helping already.

As everyone else has warned(mainly Old Man), be VERY careful when you start and don't over pump the vacuum pressure.  And, don't use soap and/or shampoo as a lubricate.  It will cause skin irratation.  I wet my penis and scrotum with warm water and then apply plenty of KY.

GS

[Skjaldborg]

Several questions arise when an alternative cure for Peyronie's is introduced: why haven't we heard of this before? Is it so novel and unorthodox so as to blindside the medical establishment? I believe the principle of Occam's Razor helps answer this question, which favors the simplest hypothesis that still answers the question.

Regarding (Dr.?) Herazy's treatment, if a simple and effective cure for Peyronie's existed, be it pharmacological or physical in nature, we would already know about it. No breakthrough cure would go under the radar because such treatments are actively sought by established medical professionals who have a thorough understanding of the physiological aspects of the disease. Some very talented people are working on Peyronie's disease right now, some are even dedicating their academic and professional careers on it such as Dr. Lue and Dr. Levine, so it stands to reason that any cure that did exist would be known by these people due to their extensive familiarity with the disease.

Some might argue that the medical establishment would rather contrive an expensive therapy for their own monetary benefit. While this is possible given the greedy and predatory nature of man, it is unlikely because a cure for Peyronie's disease is not destined to be a blockbuster drug given that relatively few men ever get the disease. Furthermore, any truly simple treatment would not be patentable and thus very difficult to monetize effectively.

Lastly, although the world can be a bitter and terrible place (a world in fact where a young and healthy man in his 30s such as myself will get an incurable and painful disease that deforms his penis) I still believe that the doctors I have visited hold true to the Hippocratic Oath in treating me to the best of their ability. I find it highly unlikely that any of the doctors I have seen would withhold a truly breakthrough treatment from me for their own gain if they did know of its existence.

Therefore, a simple and easy breakthrough cure for Peyronie's Disease does not exist.

Skjald

[George999]

Oh my!  How could I have missed such a fascinating string of posts that have broken out on this thread over the past few weeks?  Even Dr Herazy has shown up!  Will wonders never cease?  And along the way we have the bizarre solutions typical of this AT thread plus the critics of more conventional solutions.  The stew is piping hot!

While all of this makes for great drama and entertainment, lets not forget the stuff that works.

1)  A lot of guys here have confirmed that the VED works for them.  That is pretty good evidence that it does work for at least some people.

2)  A lot of guys here have noted a degree of benefit from Pentoxifylline.  I am one of them.  Additionally Drs Lue, Levine and others recommend Pentoxifylline.

3)  A growing number of guys are reporting benefits from traction.  And Dr Levine and others recommend it.

So lets make it clear that if you want something with some evidence behind it that is available now, the above are it.  Lets also be clear that none of the above are likely to cure your Peyronie's, although I suspect someone just starting with Peyronie's *might* be able to achieve a cure IF they catch it quickly enough.

On the other hand, pretty much everything posted on this thread are shot in the dark stuff.  They may work and they may not.  Likely they may not.  They may be safe and they may not.  Caveat Emptor .  And ... They may work for some, but not for others .  Better luck next time!

I have used a lot of supplements since I have had Peyronie's, including a number I actually purchased directly from Dr Herazy.  I never felt "ripped off" by Dr Herazy, but I never felt that I achieved significant benefit from any of his treatments either.  I can say that at least some of the products he sells on his site are very good products and the price he charges for them is reasonable.  EVERY supplement I myself have suggested on this forum is, with a few very rare exceptions, is one I have tried myself.  And every rare exception I have tried to make it clear that I myself had not used it.  EVERYTHING I ever stated I was using, I WAS using.  And I have done my best to report back on the percieved success or lack of.  I have even gone to the point of editing my prior posts with new information (without deleting anything) to clarify things.

I honestly believe that many of the supplements I have used HAVE been helpful for my Peyronie's.  No one gives credit to the level of benefit that blocks progression to whatever degree, but I call that a benefit.  But NO supplement I have ever taken has helped me to the extent that Pentoxifylline has.  That is the honest truth.  ALC is the ONLY supplement that comes close.

I believe very deeply that the root cause of Peyronie's is metabolic.  Additionally, I believe that underlying metabolic problem can and does produce more fibrotic disorders as time progesses.  So I believe it is important not only to treat Peyronie's itself with things like the above three known beneficial treatments, but also to attempt to treat the underlying metabolic disorder.  This is why I advocate things like checking and optimizing serum Vitamin D levels and using Low Dose Naltrexone, all under the supervision and guidance of a physician.  Both are known to work at a very deep level on normalizing immune system function.  There are new studies on Vitamin D appearing on an almost daily basis and all are positive.  There is a worldwide peoples movement on behalf of Low Dose Naltrexone due to the benefits people are receiving from it AND multiple positive initial studies demonstrating benefit from it.  Both Vitamin D and Low Dose Naltrexone relate to inflammation and auto-immunity.  Both are inexpensive and totally safe when used under medical supervision.

And of course, in the future there are things like Xiaflex and perhaps drugs like Pirfenidone.

For all its faults, thanks to guys like Hawk and Tim, this forum is the number one best source for information on how to deal effectively with Peyronie's.  But its messy and there are no simple solutions.  Most of the guys who come here to snipe and snap are just bitter over the fact that no one can offer them a simple solution.  So they berate their doctors, they berate the researchers, and eventually they come here and berate us.  They are furious because they tried something they read about here and it "didn't work".  They make it sound like we were promoting it as a sure solution.  In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.  Everything presented here is vetted by the group.  Anyone who comes here and pulls a recommendation out of its context of surrounding comments and posts is a fool.  And unfortunately, rather than ending it there, they sometimes come back again and make a fool of themselves with their own tirading rants.

-  George

[George999]

I would just add to Skjald's comments this:

When a cure is found for Peyronie's you will know about it here.  Continually guys are recommending potential treatments on this site.  Invariably, when any possible treatment is suggested, multiple guys usually try it.  That is how desperate we are for something that works in this very large community.  Anything that provides benefit will light up this forum and spread like wildfire.  You can count on that.  The reason nothing has lit up this forum so far is simply because nothing has ever been suggested that has proven capable of curing Peyronie's.  NOTHING.  There are things that help, and because this forum is so large and diverse, those things become common knowledge quickly in this community.  That's reality folks!  - George


PS - Dr. Herazy is indeed a doctor.  However he is a chiropractic doctor which would imply that his professional expertize in dealing with Peyronie's would be limited whether he would admit that or not.

[cowboyfood]

Therefore, a simple and easy breakthrough cure for Peyronie's Disease does not exist.

Skjald

I agree with your premise, but I would slightly modify your conclusion to read " . . . a known cure for Peyronie's Disease does not exist, notwithstanding evidence that some treatments may reduce or eliminate an individual's Peyronie's Disease symptoms."

CF

[mischelstraus]

I am very interested in the focus of your post.
I m sure that your post will definitely be of help to many people.
Nice Stuff.I'm looking forward to reading more from you.

[Tim468]

Maybe this should be in the VED section...

One can use soap as a lubricant if done during a shower or bath - I do this almost every night. However, it is important to rinse it off very thoroughly to avoid rashes. Also it is absolutely important to trim hair or to shave NOT just before applying the VED as the microscopic cuts from the razor will favor a folliculitis or rash formation. I shave right afterwards to stay trimmed for a better seal - it is fine the next day.

Tim

[Fred22]

Tim,
As you said, this should probably be in the VED section but since you posted here I'll go ahead.  I got the Fitzz 3 cylinder model just before Xmas and have attempted initiating the 26 week protocol a couple of times.  However, after about 3 days each time I've had to stop due to an increase in discomfort/pain.  We've discussed my history before and, as you know, pain is one of my major issues (going on 4 years with varying degrees of mild to excruciating pain).  I've been very careful not to overpump but as soon as I get any significant stretch it gets very uncomfortable.  Can you offer any suggestions/insight regarding this problem?  For example, I'm not sure how much of a stretch I should be trying to achieve at this point or how many times I should pump, how long to wait between cycles, etc.  Can you give me a rough idea of the best way to "ease into" this therapy, because I really want to give it a chance.  Do you think VED therapy is useful in reducing inflammation?  I'd appreciate any advice you can offer.  Thanks.

Fred

[Tim468]

Fred,

We are all different. I do know that when I am "active" it hurts when I pump, and I adjust my technique a bit. This may help for you too.

I sit in the tub in hot water - I like a hot bath and I am not concerned with reducing my sperm count. I do think that this may make it easier to stretch, based on objective measurements of length made while stretching (I always get an extra 1/4 to 1/2 inch of length when I stretch this way - I do not know if that is 'better' though).

After sitting for a while (ie 5-10 minutes), I stand up and soap up. Standing makes it easier by far to use a VED than lying down. I apply a moderate vaccum with the hand pump. At this time (before my penis is really engorged yet) it is much easier to pull scrotum into the VED. I hold it out with the edge of my left hand, and also use a mild "milking action" with the VED. At this time, I frequently break the seal by accident - no big deal, just reseat it and pump up again. If the seal does not break by accident, I usually release quickly - usually within 5 seconds.

This initial pumping is allowing the penis to adjust and inflate - it does not happen instantly! But as you gradually get fuller, the base part starts to seat better and it is not so easy for the scrotum to be pulled in (less room since the penis is now fatter). At this point if I break a seal and take the VED off, I look very full but am certainly not hard or erect. I now pump to a desired pressure. Using a gauge, I personally pump in the A cylinder to about 180 - 200 mm Hg negative pressure. However, for others, this may be too much. Given your history, I might start at a lower pressure like 100 mm Hg negative pressure. For the C cylinder (I rarely use the B cylinder any more since many more weeks than 26 have now passed me by!), I use a lower pressure. The reason I use a higher pressure in the A cylinder, is that the pressure should be applied only to the head and is essentially pulling it out away from the body, with the penis constrained in the tube. In the C cylinder the pressure is being applied to the sides of the penis and it just feels like too much - and it leads to formation of edema in the soft tissue of skin.

I hold the pressure (using the A cylinder) for probably five minutes, then release and re-pump in about 20 seconds.

Others here will release the pressure much sooner (i.e. every 20-30 seconds) and repump after a 10 second wait. Obviously, there is no "best" way to do this. For you, I would start with shorter times at full pressure, and then see if that helps the pain, if not then switch to longer times. (I could create an rationale for either being "better" - more fresh blood is better; versus less fussing around and ups and downs might be better)

When I have pumped to the desired pressure, I am lazy so I sit back down and relax in the tub. When the penis has been stretched out a bit, it is much easier to release pressure and repump it while lying down (unless you wait too long - ie more than 1-2 minutes).

Fred, if you have a nerve going right through a plaque it may be really hard to do any of this without pain. I hope this helps give you ideas that do help.

Tim

[Fred22]

Thanks, Tim.  Helpful information.  I'm going to try to get back into it soon as the pain has subsided some in the last few days.  Can't use mine in the tub though because I have the Fitzz 3 cylinder and I'm pretty sure it's not a good idea to get water in the pump.  Thanks again.

Fred

[Lancaster]

"After finding this forum today I decided to join."
and
"I can see tim now, looking up my ip address to verify I am in MA.  Gotta poke fun at tim's ballet detective work."

BostonBlacky

If you are someone who has come back and are here again, then say it. If you are new, you picked a couple of buried and esoteric things to comment on! Other than noting that you were obviously a former member returning, I could not care less who you are. But it is of interest that you are not honest at the outset. It also appears that you have an axe to grind.

Hohum
-Tim

What? What? and What, again?  Tim, give yourself a rest from the ballet detective work.

-Have a good weekend

This member banned for creating a spam account.

[Tim468]

Dear Lancaster,

No detective work - just common sense. Someone comes to the forum for the "first time" and makes a comment about a dialog I had months earlier that was buried in the middle of another thread, and then makes the comment virtually hidden by changing the font to a small font.

Does it seem reasonable that a newcomer would say that? Or notice that? Or do that?

No, I thought you'd see that too.

For you, and the "newcomer" named BostonBlacky (who has a sort of familiar tone as he talks about how important it is to get high end research going), I do not engage in "detective work" (ballet or otherwise). I, like others, cannot help but pay attention to the world around him, so I notice stuff. Sometimes, I am interested enough to look into it further (and so I found other posts on other fora by a person who had come here to flame a bit)(or maybe it was someone else - who gives a damn?).

But you can rest assured that I am no longer interested enough in Boston Blacky to "investigate him" or to look up his IP of origin, etc. You might even note that I am no longer an Administrator here (and so I do not have access to posters' IP addresses as I used to have).

Although I understand Old Man's frustration at your posting this post, I think more of his frustration is directed at a sort of negative tone in what you say (often, not always). I tried to ask you about that, but you do not really come here, it seems, to engage in dialog. Instead, you come now and then, make a bunch of brief posts (generally negative about therapies that "don't work) and then leave - no responses to the replies or the comments engendered by your posts.

It might work better here if you engaged in dialog - just a thought.

Tim

[Iceman]

Lancaster - what are you saying?? - that pentox is a waste - so what else can you offer - please let me know as Ive been on the pentox for 2 years and I dont want to continue using this if you think its a waste of time

thanks in advance

[skunkworks]

Lancaster - what are you saying?? - that pentox is a waste - so what else can you offer - please let me know as Ive been on the pentox for 2 years and I dont want to continue using this if you think its a waste of time

thanks in advance

Iceman wake up. Pentox has studies backing it. Lancaster is some random in a forum.  

[CP]

I am using PABA now and it is so much cheaper than POTABA.   I will let you know if it seems to be effective used with vitamin E.

Does anyone have any info on PABA?

[sunny sky]

I was told I could take pentox but the Dr's had so many qualifiers conneted to it's use like, "It sometimes works for some men, some of the time."  I turned it down.

Lancaster - what are you saying?? - that pentox is a waste - so what else can you offer - please let me know as Ive been on the pentox for 2 years and I dont want to continue using this if you think its a waste of time

thanks in advance

Iceman wake up. Pentox has studies backing it. Lancaster is some random in a forum.

[sunny sky]

What kind of site is this.  Who is this guy old man typing in all caps and picking a fight.  I came here to get good information.  Can't you men use private messaging for your gossip and conspiracy theories.

Lancaster:


GIVE IT A REST!! TAKE YOUR DRIVAL SOMEWHERE IT WOULD BE APPRECIATED + IT DEFINITELY IS NOT WELCOME HERE. EITHER CLEAN UP YOUR ACT OR YOU WILL BE GONE! THIS IS NOT A THREAT, JUST FOR YOUR INFORMATION. I DON'T USUALLY LET GUYS LIKE YOU GET MY SKIN (MY SKIN IS AS THICK AS AN ELEPHANT) AND YOU ARE NOT EITHER, SO BE FOREWARNED ABOUT CASTIGATING MEMBERS ON THIS FORUM WILL NOT BE TOLERATED!!

Old Man

[Angus]

   This site is one where posts can be made about Peyronies Disease and discussions had about the subject; this is a site where rules are easily found on the home page. This is a site where these rules are expected to be followed. Those who flame and launch personal attacks against the membership will be banned (Lancaster).
  There are plenty of message boards where men do not have to act and talk like gentlemen... this is not one of those sites.
  Sunny Sky, Old Man is a long-term well-respected member of this forum. He has also endured being flamed many times on this forum by men who couldn't conduct themselves as gentlemen and have a civil discussion on this message board. If you had read this board and past threads and messages you would know this. Please read past threads and messages for a better understanding of the board.
Welcome to the board, Sunny, but please use discretion with your words in posts.

  I will not allow flame posts to get started here or anywhere else on this board.  

[GS]

Guys,

This may have been covered, but I couldn't find it on the forum.

My hormone replacement doctor wants me to use a DHT topical gel on my penis as therapy.  My research on the internet shows DHT as a penis enlargement hormone, but I don't find anything related to Peyronies.

Can someone point me in the right direction?

GS

[MUSICMAN]

Some of the relationships were more successful than others as far as penetration & sexual fulfillment. However, I have NEVER encountered a woman who ridiculed or teased or even mostly cared what the state of my penis was. Its a problem of confidence more than anything.

Some men have mild bends and penetration is not much of a problem. When a man has a bend that makes penetration impossible you can still have a sex life but far from the norm. As being married for over 35 year, peyronies has taken a toll on our relationship. If I had a 25 deg. bend I would concider myself cured. Medical treatment is financial out of the question. Mental pain for both partners is almost unbearable. So not being concerned that one does not have a perfect penis is not the issue for guys is my condition. If I were in a position to look for a new relationship,  the only woman that would have interest in me  would be one that need the house repaired or some other needs. Yes be happy if your condition still allows you to have a love life but concider the ones that can't.   Musicman

[ocelot556]

GS,

This is an interesting thing for your DR. to suggest. I am convinced that at 23 I developed Peyronie's Disease due to short term use of Propecia, which inhibits DHT to prevent hair loss.

I am convinced if I can find a DR who will work with me on androgen/DHT replacement my body would correct itself - unfortunately, most of the Uro's I meet have no interest whatsoever in even considering that a 26 year old's ED and Peyronies Disease are related to low androgens.

Please keep us updated on if you begin this treatment and how it works for you!

[BrooksBro]

My urologist started me on daily topical testosterone gel (Testim) a few months ago when the testosterone level came back under 300.  This was more for ED than peyronies.  That said, I believe weak erections can lead to injuries which result in plaque formation.  Also, infrequent and weak erections result in less than optimum healthy penile tissue.

My initial favorable response faded.  It appears at least some of the additional testosterone might be converting to an estrogen (estradiol - E2).  I hope to find out if that is true soon, and address that.  Until I can get a definitive test, I am taking OTC Resveratrol and Quercetin, both aromatase inhibitors.  I'll stop them a week or so before my next doctor visit.

I am convinced if I can find a DR who will work with me on androgen/DHT replacement my body would correct itself - unfortunately, most of the Uro's I meet have no interest whatsoever in even considering that a 26 year old's ED and Peyronies Disease are related to low androgens.

[GS]

BrooksBro,

I don't think there is any doubt that a less than hard erection can be dangerous when having intercourse, especially with Peyronies.  To be safe, I use 20mgs. of Viagra for intercourse.  I buy the 100 mg dosage and just bite off a small piece each time.  It's less expensive that way.

As far as the testosterone gel is concerned,the way I am understanding it, DHT gel can't be converted to estrogen the way testosterone gel can.  You may want to research that and let us know what you think.

To compound my problem, I have BPH along with Peyronies, so my concern with the DHT gel is that is could cause more enlargement of my prostate.  I can't have that, even if it helps my Peyronies.  I'm reading a lot of conflicting reports on DHT and the prostate via the internet.  Any help on this issue would be appreciated.

Gs

[GS]

Guys,

I started the DHT gel therapy on Monday.  It took a while to get the DHT gel.  Based on my research, the DHT gel should help with erections and help to enlarge my penis and it should not cause any problems with my BPH symptoms.  I am using the DHT gel in conjunction with the VED, of which I'm in my 17th week.

So far I haven't noticed anything different, but , like the VED, it's a long term therapy.

If you are interested in getting information on the internet, goggle "doctors opinions of DHT gel".  That way, you'll get a lot less penis enlargement websites.

GS

[Ironman]

Dr Herazy, thanks for your painstakingly well writ posts and the work you are doing on Peyronies Disease. Motivated now to try gentle massage, starting tonite. Kind of don't think it'll work, but ...long as it don't hurt me. I believe that you are sincerely trying to help men with Peyronies Disease. Thank you again.

[peyroninsidepglans]

There is no treatments, other than blood thinners?

where is the surgery where are the charaties? for all we know it it could account for 20 percent of suicides around the world yet the dont speak up

this disease needs to be addressed

cheers
Mark

[peyroninsidepglans]

Guys,

I started the DHT gel therapy on Monday.  It took a while to get the DHT gel.  Based on my research, the DHT gel should help with erections and help to enlarge my penis and it should not cause any problems with my BPH symptoms.  I am using the DHT gel in conjunction with the VED, of which I'm in my 17th week.

So far I haven't noticed anything different, but , like the VED, it's a long term therapy.

If you are interested in getting information on the internet, goggle "doctors opinions of DHT gel".  That way, you'll get a lot less penis enlargement websites.

GS


I'm sorryto hear that good luck to a cure my friend

I have already realiswed there is no cure, your better off living life living life in danger who care ablut anything now

cheers Mark

[fubar]

There is a remedy a cure or procedure to give resolve to this infliction. It just is not here yet.All we can do is keep reaching and working  on awareness and movement for our cause.

How we go about it and how we are heard is going to say much about us .We cannot be weak and angry.Yes it will be a challenge but who better to fight for it than Peyronie's suffers.

So for now you have to suck it up and be a man and live with what ever life brings you like the rest of us.

Fubar

[Iceman]

you have to be positive - keep reading the threads here and start on pentox - i only think about it avey other day now and not every minute....

[newguy]

People often do have surgery to treat peyronie's. Of course it depends on the extent and stage on the condition. Pentox is thought to be useful. Other drugs and supplements may help, but it's hard to tell, as very few people try new strategies. VED, traction and so can be useful. I totally agree that more needs to be done, but there are ways to at least try to work at dealing with this mess.  

[germanirish]

We must stay positive...

I went in for my 6 month check up with my Uro and he mentioned again that Vitamin E does more harm then good.  He said it's been shown in studies that large doses of Vit E can cause strokes and other heart issues.  The normal dose you get in a multi-vitamin is just fine.  My doc also reduced my Pentox from 1200 mg day to 800 mg because recent studies are showing that lower doses of Pentox seem to be working better then higher doses.

As far as new drugs on the horizon he mentioned Collagemase is showing promising results for helping to break down scare tissues in animals.  It could be a year before they try an injection form on humans but hopefully it will work on Peyronies.  This product is currently being used as topical treatment for external use only.  FYI, my doc in Seattle studied under Tom Lue in SF.

GermanIrish

COLLAGENASE (kohl LAH jen ace) is an enzyme that breaks down collagen in damaged tissue and helps healthy tissue to grow. It may help wounds heal faster.

[snowydreams]

I have read some posts about the PAV cocktail.  Which urologists have recommended this combination, are there any studies about it, and what dosage of Viagra and L-arginine was recommended?

[ComeBacKid]

Snowy,

I believe Dr. Levine was a big supporter and pusher of the PAV cocktail, hes from Chicago.  I also believe the daily dosage for viagra was one pill per day. And the L Arginine was either 800 or 1200 MG. They come in capsules of 400, so it would be 2 or 3 per day.  If you search the forum I'm sure we've discussed this in the past somewhere on this board.

Comebackid

[LWillisjr]

Your surgeon is obligated legally to tell you certain things about the penile implant device, like you will lose your natural ability to get an erection, and there could be serious side effects such as infection.

The surgery is guaranteed to make your penis shorter.  Read other posts to find out how much.  Testimonies range up to three inches.

It won't be as well as your normal, natural erection.

I understand your points, but have a couple of questions myself.

You state you will lose your natural ability to gain an erection. Since they remove the corpora chambers to do this, then yes I agree. But then why would one have elected for implant surgery in the first place. You should only consider this if you have already lost your ability to achieve a natural erection.

You say it is "guaranteed" to make your penis shorter. Can you elaborate on this? The corpora chambers are replaced with mechanically inflatable chambers. If sized and placed properly it seem loss of length could be minimized. And I believe I have read accounts of implant patients who did not lose any length. I do agree this is a risk and loss of length is very likely. I just struggle with your word.... guaranteed.

You say it won't be your normal natural erection. Again, one should only consider this surgery if one can't achieve natural erections in the first place. And there are stated testimonies of those you have had implant surgery that they have the erection of a nineteen year old again.

??

[George999]

Thacker' Formula has been much discussed around here over the years, but just not recently.  - George

[gnosis]

I had a very difficult experience with Peyronie's starting in 2008.   This site was very helpful in a recovery which has been much stronger than I thought possible.  I want to thank the site and everyone here.  I also want to share my experience.  The key piece was alternative but I cannot see anything quite like it in the alternative pages on this list.  

I was looking for a massaging to break up the plaque but what I found was a great bodyworker who specializes in everything pelvic.  He used Pelvic-Heart Integration developed by Jack Painter, but he had been a Siddha Yoga monk for 20 years and was using that and all kinds of things.   While he did a little work on the scar tissue, that only seemed to be a minor part of the contribution to recovery.

The Story.  I had seen something about the manual breaking down of scar tissue (massage) on this site and in other places.   I was looking for someone who knew how to do it but couldn't find anyone.
Finally,   I finally thought of someone who had taken classes with me, who teaches tantra and asked her.  She did indeed know a massage therapist who was highly trained generally and who was certified in the area of sexuality in California, the only state to offer that.   But it was a man, and I was squeamish about a man working directly on my penis.    

Well I got over it and started working with him.   He is based in New York City and works in California regularly as well, Bill Zarick, billzarick@gmail.com, (805) 729-5117.  [I have his permission to post this but if it isn't allowed to post this information, please delete]   It turned out that he knew of the method for breaking up scar tissue but knew much more about the pelvis generally.   He was a Siddha Yoga Monk for 20 years and most of what he did came out of that and also out of something called Pelvic-Heart Integration (from a European named Jack Painter).  

I had analyzed my problem functionally.   It was like my penis was broken in two places and I couldn't get the torque to enter the vagina with the weak erection I could get and it was also very hard to sustain an erection.  Functionally, the first thing I needed was to have an erection passing through the broken places and to have it sustain enough to allow entry.   I decided I could live with the curvature, but I just wanted badly to be able to have intercourse again.

After about the third long visit with Zarick I asked him to work specifically on erection passing through the lower right break in the penis.  Zarick's work on peyronie's does NOT involve stimulation during the session. . it is working manually and energetically in the pelvis area toward healing such that you notice improvement afterwards.

The next day I was on the airplane and I noticed an erection and it just kept staying there. . so I went to the rest room and , MY GOD, the erection included passing right through the broken place on the lower right.  FAR OUT!  I had been bumped up to first class on the plane so it was easy to go back to the bathroom frequently to check. The erection kept hanging around, I kept checking, it continued passing through this broken place which had not been getting any erection.    

In fact I rarely had erections, never through that broken place, never sustaining so much.

Shortly thereafter, I started having intercourse again, and I had 15 straight successful entries with climax over several weeks and each time I got more confidence.  Of course it would be better if I didn't have to keep track but after losing it so clearly, I needed to do that for a while.  My girlfriend in that time was a magician so that was a factor, too.   The recovery has extended over a couple of years and with a couple of different girlfriends who were wonderfully supportive but not "penis magicians".  It isn't a straight line recovery but over time it gets better particularly with quite regular intercourse with a supportive partner.   Having intercourse and good intercourse is itself healing.   The body is learning to adapt.   USE IT OR LOSE IT keeps coming to mind.  From no capability for having intercourse, I now have come to feeling pretty confident.   Sometimes it even seems that I am in one of the better erectile functioning places in my life.  

I have continued working with Zarick maybe 4 times/year for a few hours each time.   That work is the key.  I attribute about 70% of my recovery to that work.

I attribute some benefit to the VED (maybe 15% credit)  and and maybe 5-10% to iontophoresis with Verapamil  (I preferred to find a mixture of Pentox for that but couldn't ...the bad reports here on Verapamil are convincing but I like iontophoresis).  5% credit to someone I found who was quite experienced in breaking down scar tissue (he worked on over 50 people from a Peyronie's club--Paul St. John). 5% credit to some 20 other things I tried a little which may have contributed.  Chris Spivey, a distinguished Physician's Assistant at Birmingham Urological, was the best medical person I found by far.

What was nice about the Zarick work is that I could see outcomes quite soon after it.  With much of the alternative stuff and the straight stuff,  it is hard to know if it is working or not.  I'd love to see a few others try this path.  I know enough about research that it can be hard to generalize a single outcome, but I would be cautiously optimistic that if 10 people gave it a good try that 4-6 would have strong outcomes.   That would be . . . a good thing.  

Thanks again to all the people who keep this site going.  Gnosis

[crashbandit]

So this guy never touched or worked directly on the penis? Just on the pelvic area? Can you describe how he massaged the area? It sounds alot like postural reconstruction perhaps. Like a type of myofascial release.

I'd love to maybe give something like that a shot but I'm afraid I'll never find someone as good as your guy or even anyone at all in my area. Do you think maybe you had a type of CPPS that this guy had released?

[samo]

I had a very difficult experience with Peyronie's starting in 2008.   This site was very helpful in a recovery which has been much stronger than I thought possible.  I want to thank the site and everyone here.  I also want to share my experience.  The key piece was alternative but I cannot see anything quite like it in the alternative pages on this list.  

I was looking for a massaging to break up the plaque but what I found was a great bodyworker who specializes in everything pelvic.  He used Pelvic-Heart Integration developed by Jack Painter, but he had been a Siddha Yoga monk for 20 years and was using that and all kinds of things.   While he did a little work on the scar tissue, that only seemed to be a minor part of the contribution to recovery.

The Story.  I had seen something about the manual breaking down of scar tissue (massage) on this site and in other places.   I was looking for someone who knew how to do it but couldn't find anyone.
Finally,   I finally thought of someone who had taken classes with me, who teaches tantra and asked her.  She did indeed know a massage therapist who was highly trained generally and who was certified in the area of sexuality in California, the only state to offer that.   But it was a man, and I was squeamish about a man working directly on my penis.    

Well I got over it and started working with him.   He is based in New York City and works in California regularly as well, Bill Zarick, billzarick@gmail.com, (805) 729-5117.  [I have his permission to post this but if it isn't allowed to post this information, please delete]   It turned out that he knew of the method for breaking up scar tissue but knew much more about the pelvis generally.   He was a Siddha Yoga Monk for 20 years and most of what he did came out of that and also out of something called Pelvic-Heart Integration (from a European named Jack Painter).  

I had analyzed my problem functionally.   It was like my penis was broken in two places and I couldn't get the torque to enter the vagina with the weak erection I could get and it was also very hard to sustain an erection.  Functionally, the first thing I needed was to have an erection passing through the broken places and to have it sustain enough to allow entry.   I decided I could live with the curvature, but I just wanted badly to be able to have intercourse again.

After about the third long visit with Zarick I asked him to work specifically on erection passing through the lower right break in the penis.  Zarick's work on peyronie's does NOT involve stimulation during the session. . it is working manually and energetically in the pelvis area toward healing such that you notice improvement afterwards.

The next day I was on the airplane and I noticed an erection and it just kept staying there. . so I went to the rest room and , MY GOD, the erection included passing right through the broken place on the lower right.  FAR OUT!  I had been bumped up to first class on the plane so it was easy to go back to the bathroom frequently to check. The erection kept hanging around, I kept checking, it continued passing through this broken place which had not been getting any erection.    

In fact I rarely had erections, never through that broken place, never sustaining so much.

Shortly thereafter, I started having intercourse again, and I had 15 straight successful entries with climax over several weeks and each time I got more confidence.  Of course it would be better if I didn't have to keep track but after losing it so clearly, I needed to do that for a while.  My girlfriend in that time was a magician so that was a factor, too.   The recovery has extended over a couple of years and with a couple of different girlfriends who were wonderfully supportive but not "penis magicians".  It isn't a straight line recovery but over time it gets better particularly with quite regular intercourse with a supportive partner.   Having intercourse and good intercourse is itself healing.   The body is learning to adapt.   USE IT OR LOSE IT keeps coming to mind.  From no capability for having intercourse, I now have come to feeling pretty confident.   Sometimes it even seems that I am in one of the better erectile functioning places in my life.  

I have continued working with Zarick maybe 4 times/year for a few hours each time.   That work is the key.  I attribute about 70% of my recovery to that work.

I attribute some benefit to the VED (maybe 15% credit)  and and maybe 5-10% to iontophoresis with Verapamil  (I preferred to find a mixture of Pentox for that but couldn't ...the bad reports here on Verapamil are convincing but I like iontophoresis).  5% credit to someone I found who was quite experienced in breaking down scar tissue (he worked on over 50 people from a Peyronie's club--Paul St. John). 5% credit to some 20 other things I tried a little which may have contributed.  Chris Spivey, a distinguished Physician's Assistant at Birmingham Urological, was the best medical person I found by far.

What was nice about the Zarick work is that I could see outcomes quite soon after it.  With much of the alternative stuff and the straight stuff,  it is hard to know if it is working or not.  I'd love to see a few others try this path.  I know enough about research that it can be hard to generalize a single outcome, but I would be cautiously optimistic that if 10 people gave it a good try that 4-6 would have strong outcomes.   That would be . . . a good thing.  

Thanks again to all the people who keep this site going.  Gnosis

Interesting. Do you see this as something you could do on yourself or teach a partner?

[gnosis]

Dear Crashbandit, Zarick avoided direct work on the penis at the beginning because I was uncomfortable with it.  In general, he worked on abdomen (acupuncture points), around the base of the penis, between penis and anus sometimes with breathing, sometimes with sound.. ..  .just kind of different ways.  He also worked with chest, mouth, places in the neck, legs. Eventually he did some of the scar reduction work on the penis but I don't think that was part of the success so much.  

I've done a lot of different kinds of bodywork so some aspects were familiar but overall the work with zarick was just kind of different.  And it just has good outcome.
*****

To Samo about working with partners.   I started a process with my girlfriend where I would do body work with her that I would want her to then do to me.  I would do about 10 minutes.   I started with the back and some stretching things around loosening the area around lumbar 3 and 4 (places in the spine in the lower back.   The nerve endings connected to the penis have a link there and in one of my bodywork sessions with st. john, he worked on L3 and L4 (lumbar 3 and 4) a lot, and I noticed getting "turned on" more the 24 hours after that.  Well it kind of worked and then it led into intercourse that worked.

Another thing I did was in the same structure-- working on her first to show what I thought I wanted -- but it involved working with the whole leg and moving it around as loosening or freeing in the pelvic joint.   Another was on the upper thighs as that also would make a nerve link to the penis.  

These indirect nerve links to the penis from loosening the lower back, working with the whole leg, working with the inner thigh, seem to be important for setting up a better and more sustainable erection.   I.E. it works better than just her stimulating my penis directly when it comes to the overall quality of the erection and having intercourse.

Right after I posted I had two efforts at intercourse which failed and I hadn't had two failures in a row for a while so I don't want to give the impression that everything is perfect.

Zarick is also quite into deeper more meaningful more powerful sexual intimacy both for men and women.  That is what I care about and my penis working enough that I can keep exploring that. . . . that is what is important.   Gnosis

[gnosis]

Correcting the email for Zarick.  In posts in this thread, I described a bit of my work with Bill Zarick, a bodyworker specializing in the pelvis, but gave an incorrect email accidentally.   It should be billzarick@hotmail.com     He works in New York-- tri state area, and in northern and southern california.  His work is extraordinary.   Gnosis

[crashbandit]

Hi gnosis,

Hope your maintaning those positive results you yielded from the body work? You still getting the body work done to your pelvis? When you say working on the scar tissue, what do you mean? How did the scar tissue get in your pelvis in the first place? Is there a special course your body worker took for the pelvis area?  

[gnosis]

Hi Crashbandit,
Yes I am maintaining those good results . .. with occasional setbacks.   And I am continuing the pelvic work.  I have a session coming up in the next week.   My bodyworker, zarick, (billzarick@hotmail.com) has done a ton of various trainings.   Specifically in relation to this work he has studied with jack painter, (pelvic heart integration), a legend in Europe, and with Paul St. John (a national bodywork teacher who worked on maybe 50 peyronie's people from a peyronie's club in Tampa) and he is certified in sexuality in california, the only state to give a certification in that area.  It is quite obvious if you have done bodywork that zarick is VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE and professional and has a LONG TIME N THE FIELD.  

I'd love to get a group of people trying this to see if the results were comparable to mine. . .that would be significant at a larger "social" level.   Gnosis

[crashbandit]

Thanks Gnosis for the email and update.

I'm sending him an email shortly to see if he could refer me to anyone in my area. I wish I could see him in person or even the group you speak of but me being in Alberta, Canada makes it impossible.

[nemo]

I eventually gave up on all the many and varied supps I was taking as I just couldn't tell that anything was doing much.  But for some reason, I cling to L-Argenine as I have a sense that it in some way helps with erection quality.  I take 2 grams a day, one in the morning, one at night - GNC brand.  

Just wondering ... since a couple years ago when the PAV cocktail was all the rage here (and I was taking Vaso-Flow, the foulest-smelling, most potent Argenine available), is anyone still taking L-Argine anymore?  I don't see it mentioned too much anymore.  

Nemo

[LauRenT]

Nemo
I'm like you, since 3 months i take 2 grams of L-arginine before sleep. It's very hard to see in all treatment what drug really have a positive effect on peyronie, but i can say L-arginine is one of them. I wanted to take more L-arginine because i saw the diference before and after taking it, but i choosed to add Pycnogenol. Since i added Pycnogenol with L-arginine, i can say that my erections back to normal ( like before peyronie ).
I'm not sure about how much of L-arginine you need to take in a daily base ( depend maybe your ED degree ), as i saw some of people take 500 mg/day and others 5g/day or more. I talked about this with my doctor and we were agree with 2 grams/ day.
Maybe it can be a good idea if you add pycnogenol ( In my case i take 100 mg of pycnogenol with 2 grams of L-arginine ), i really saw the diference when i added it with L-arginine.
Bad side in my case, more expensive adding pycnogenol than increase L-arginine, but it was my choice.

Laurent

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21618639
http://www.prostate.net/prostate-health-supplements-a-z/pine-bark-pycnogenol/
http://www.peyronies-disease.co.uk/2010/06/pycnogenol-l-arginine-prelox.html

[cowboyfood]

Nemo,

I'm still taking 2-3 grams of L-arginine daily.  

My take, according to the forum, is that Pentox is definitely the best oral medication method.  Cialis or similar is also helpful. VED (traction for some) is the best physical therapy.

So, I think the PAV cocktail is still the rage where the V is viagra, cilais or something similar.

CF