ARCHIVE: Verapamil - Injections & Topical Applications including Iontophoresis

[nemo]

I just talked to Dr. Carroll on the phone and ordered a Physion Ionto machine and SomaCorrect VED.  Listening to my symptoms (strange sensation/soreness, indentation on the bottom), he said I probably reinjured my penis and am experiencing inflammation.  

I'm going to try the Ionto, even though I know you guys didn't experience anything dramatic with it.  Since Levine thinks it has merit, and I'm still in the early stages, I hope it will help in some way. Carroll feels it is good at "knocking out inflammation" so we'll see what it does for me.

I'll keep you posted.

Nemo

[nemo]

Just thought I'd update on this.  

I received the package from Dr. Carroll yesterday.  To my surprise, it wasn't a Physion Ionto machine, but an Iomed machine and pads and a SomaCorrect VED.  I don't know if this really makes any difference, but what he advertises on his website is Physion, so I was surprised to receive Iomed.  His instructions are to use the machine at 2 milli-amps for 20 minutes, but it also goes to 3 and 4.  I'm going to call and ask why 2 is preferred and if I can do it every day instead of 2-4 times a week.  

Tried it last night with the Dexamethosone and Verapamil.  Can't say I noticed any effect at all, but of course, that was one time.  We'll see.  Pad seems awfully wet still after 20 minutes ... I wonder how much drug is actually getting into the penis.  

I hope it will at the least stop inflammation and help me stabalize sooner.

Nemo

[Tim468]

The volume of the fluid does not change during iontophoresis. Instead, the charged molecules of drug migrate through the fluid to and then into the skin. The current flows from one pad to the other, and carries the molecules of drug along. Thus, it only works for small charged molecules.

Tim

[Grant]

Regrettably the 2 Uro's I have seen here in Southern Ontario say their is no cure for this disease and surgery is the only option they've given me. My family physician is willing to fill perscriptions for me for whatever I would like to try(she is learning as I learn). I thought I would try Verapamil cream(I realize the revues are mixed) but I wish to try it. What is the recommended dosage or concentrate                   (per ? ml size tube) for the making of this cream? How many applications per day? Any known side affects?
I will pass this information to my doctor. Thank you.

Grant

[Hawk]

I know of NO MIXED reviews on verapamil cream.  We have one member out of dozens that report any success.  The rest all regret the money spent.
I would click on this link and read it BEFORE considering topical Verapamil https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,328.0.html
Start at the bottom and read the first post and work your way up.

I would research Pentox/Arginine/Viagra.
I do not think there is an oral treatment that shows more promise.  You doctor would have to prescribe the pentox and viagra.

[nemo]

Grant, I agree with Hawk on the fact that you'd likely waste a lot of money on topical verapamil.  If you are going to spend that much money, I think Iontophoresis would be the better choice, as it has been proven to at least get the verapamil into the tunica where the damage is.  No one's ever proven TV penetrates.  

You can buy an iontophoresis machine and the two drugs needed for what you'd spend on TV for a year.  I think it's at least based on better science.  Along with the Pentox/Arginine/Viagra combo Hawk mentions, I think that would be aggressive treatment based on the best science has to offer right now.  Just my opinion.  That's what I'm doing though.

Good luck brother,
Nemo

[nemo]

I talked to Dr. Carroll today about some questions about the Iontophoresis (which I ordered from him).

I asked about doing it every day.  He said the only problem was the electricity tends to irritate the skin at the point of contact after about three days, so they typically do it every other day or so.  As I am alternating application sites trying to get on both sides of the area I'm concerened about (one day on top, one day on bottom), I think I'll keep doing it every day.

I asked why he switched from Physion to Iomed equipment, and he said his patients were having trouble with the Physion application "cups" so he switched to Iomed as the patches are much better.  

I asked about how long the Dexamethosone might take to alleviate pain (or the mild, migrating soreness I've been experiencing), he thought about 10 applications if it's inflammation, but if it was a scar contracting causing pain, it could take longer until the scar got softer. I don't think that's my problem, I think I've got some inflammation that is causing the sensations I'm feeling. I would like to hear from you guys that tried Ionto as to your results with stoping the pain/inflamation.

I forgot to ask about 2mA vs 3 or 4.  For now, I guess I'll leave it at 2mA, although I seem to recall the succesful studies were using 4mA of current.  Anyone have any thoughts on this.  Maybe I'll call the Doc back on that one.

I asked about running the Dex on a negative current, then running the Verapamil on a positive current in seperate applications.  He said he does it just like the studies did it (both drugs together) and recommends adhering to that protocal since it met with success (I didn't mention it hasn't done much good for the guys here.)

Anyway, that's where I am.  I've done 4 applications.  Can't tell anything's changed.  Still no bend or palpable plaque, but I do have a couple small indentions and that persistent migrating sensation when flaccid and it feels a little sensitive in spots when erect if handled firmly.  

I'll update as the treatments progress.

Nemo  

[nemo]

Nothing much to update, but I do notice (after 6 sessions) that my penis does seem to hang looser when flaccid, and feels somehow smoother.  Perhaps this is reducing inflammation - unfortunately, it's not alleviating the weird sensations I have yet.  At any rate, it does make me think the Verapamil and Dexamathosone are at least penetrating to some degree.

Nemo

[larryd]

I developed Peyronie's about six years ago with pain for a year and stabilized for the last five (still waiting for the reversal back to normal they talk about -NOT).  By age 66, I ended up with a 43 to 45 degree upward bend with a slight dogleg to the right and an hourglass.  This resulted in shortening and narrowing of the shaft.  I tried vitamin E with no results and my Dr. said if I could have intercourse, I should do nothing.  Last month my wife developed tendinitis of the hip from trying to accommodate me, complained of pain and said I must seek treatment.

I went to a urologist who took ultrasound and could detect no plaque.  His only recommendation was a prosthetic inflatable device.  He said that the Nesbit or gortex patches didn't work and lead to ED.  I persuaded him to prescribe topical Verapamil.  My pharmacy recommended PDLabs http://www.pdlabs.net/.  When they contacted me they stated that without pain or identifiable plaque, I wouldn't see results for 90 days.  I started self treatment on April 9th (rub on for 2 minutes, wait 5 min., rub in for 2 more, twice a day).  After a week I noticed increased blood flow to the penis and my wife said that the hourglass was less detectable (similar results from next day after Viagra use, may be a side effect of TV, a damn good one).

I am closing in on a month of twice daily TV use and wife feels a difference, no pain, however she feels slight burning after, even when I wash my  groin with soap and water.  Sill have curve and using 25mg of Viagra - highly recommended for all bends - gives your confidence back).  I have not had any burning or itching from TV usage.  I will continue TV for at least the next two months.

I will keep you posted of further progress.

June 4, 2008

Developed soreness in the soft tissue below the head after almost 2 months of topical  (red sore spots and white blister).  Called PDL yesterday and the pharmacist recommended 1% Hydocortisone on the sore area and to keep the verapamil off the area.  Also Aquaphor may be used after treatment to stop itching.  Started using last night and so far so good.  Continued full feeling in the penis all day - verapamil does act like a topical Viagra!  The 30 day tube of verapamil is lasting a month and one half.  Will continue usage for at least another two months.

July 25, 2008

Just completed my 90+ day treatment and called PDlabs and said that the curve was about the same, perhaps softer bend.  The shaft and head is fuller, seems longer and much smoother.  Three months ago I didn't even like to touch my own self!  Sex life has improved and can hold morning erections with out Viagra - wow!  The rep said that this was an indication that the collagen is reforming and he didn't expect much change in the curve in 90 days.  He also said that a tube averages about 30 days, not half a month more, so I need to increase the dosage.  I ordered 90 more days supply, so I will keep you posted.

April 10, 2009

Completed another 90 days in October.  No change in curvature.  PDlabs offer 2 for one but I declined.  With the continued use of Viagra and a lubricant, I improved my sex life.  As I had some initial improvement in the first 90 days in hourglass and texture, I would recommend a 90 day program.  If your curve improves, continue longer.

[Polo3]

Hey Guys, I'm brand spankin' new here and I think this site is great.
I have a question. I'm 24 and I have no idea if I have Peyronies Disease but I have a very annoying curve thats not only bothering me cosmetically but also during some activities like running or biking. I do not have any pain or problems with an erection and can preform fine during sexual intercourse. I was thinking about seeing a urologist and getting the injections. My curve is downward and to the left and during an erection it also curves slightly counter-clockwise on top of all that. Do you think the injections would work for me?

[Old Man]

Polo3:

My advice to you is not to "play around" with the injections. It has caused too much damage to too many guys that reported such on this forum. I personally have had 12 of them and each injection caused more nodules and plaque to my penis.

So, do not hesitate any further, get busy and see a qualified uro soon. The longer you wait, the worse this condition could get.

Old Man

[newguy]

Polo 3: From your description, it sounds to me like your curve has always been there, if so it's probably congenitcal. If you have no pain, erection problems, or difficulty having sex, I would be inclined to come to terms with your equipment rather than attempt anything drastic, like injections, which could result in you looking fondly often your current situation from a far more troubling perspective.

If you really are troubled by this tho, and it's not just a cosmetic inconvenience, you could maybe attempt to research into changes in curves with people outside of the sphere of peyronie's. I have seen the odd forum posts (so certainly not scientific) elsewhere of slight straightening via VED and traction devices in those with natural curves, but I have also seen reports of natural curves becoming more pronounced during traction.

 

[grf]

Nemo:

Any updates on your treatments?

[jmaxx]

http://www.tensproducts.com/

I am thinking of buying a tens unit instead of the Iomed or Decadron.  The tens is much cheaper.  Any thoughts on the Tens units?

[Tim468]

Not sure that  TENS unit would work to send current properly to do iontophoresis.

Tim

[Dale]

My bend was 50 deg. to the left, just below the head, caused by severe bending during prolonged sex. There was a pain on the left side which turned into
the bend almost over night a couple of weeks later. 2 months passed before I
determined I may need a little help and I went to the Urologist. Basically, it's like everyone says, there has not been enough studies and everyone is somewhat
different. Dr. prescribed topical Verapamil and I have been applying it 3 times
daily now for 7 months (except for the 3 weeks I got off of it because the base
of the medicine was irritating my skin); switched to a Vanpen Base which is
more like lotion and that has worked fine. I have seen improvement every month
since January when I started to take pictures for comparison. I have been improving
about 5 deg. per month and now have a 30 deg. bend which I am not calling
a victory by any means, because any bend makes sex difficult. At $50 per month
t would definitely be worth several months of trying this med. before considering
any of the other methods that have been discussed in this forum. As most say, the
pain went away after about 3 months, but as expected with a bend there is
pain during sex on the side that is healthy. I am also taking Vitamin E, which I figured
can't hurt, but I believe the real damage repair is TV and prayer. I will keep
you guys posted on future improvement. God Bless you, I know your pain and
fustration. Surely someone out there has had a similar experience; from what I've
read on this forum, there are a couple who describe the same symptoms and have
damaged the penis in a similar way, but have not indicated any success in improving
the Peyronies Disease.

[newguy]

Dale - thanks for your valuable contribution. I think you're lucky to have experienced these improvements with topical Verapamil, as I know that many others have not been so fortunate.


"Surely someone out there has had a similar experience; from what I've
read on this forum, there are a couple who describe the same symptoms and have
damaged the penis in a similar way, but have not indicated any success in improving
the Peyronies Disease."

I would say that a not insignificant number of people have experienced improvements through use of the VED... a few through traction too (though i would say that no-one has come up with a traction routine and stuck to it for a year or more, in the same way that they have through VED use). One or two through pentox alone. A combination of the two probably holds most promise, but being too enthusiastic in treating peyronie's can cause its own problems. I can't really comment of the success of verapamil with any authority as I don't frequent this board.

In terms of those newly diagnosed who go on to show improvements, I would argue that it's not easy to distinguish between naturally occuring improvements and those as a result of treatments. However, some people here have had curved units for many years and only experienced improvements when undergoing a VED routine.. so to me that's pretty much proof that it really does work for some people.

The method in which you came to develop peyronie's - an injury during sex - is far from rare. Developing a bend overnight though, is something that I haven't heard of before. Did a slight bend develop overnight, which developed into a more pronounced one? I can understand how that could happen.

[Dale]

[quote author=newguy link=topic=26.msg14537#msg14537 date=

"The method in which you came to develop peyronie's - an injury during sex - is far from rare. Developing a bend overnight though, is something that I haven't heard of before. Did a slight bend develop overnight, which developed into a more pronounced one? I can understand how that could happen."




[/quote]

Hawk - "overnight" may have been slightly "figure of speech"; however, I have sex on a weekend with no apparant
bending (about 2 weeks after the damaging sex), slight pain on left side but no problems with intercourse and the next week when I got an errection I was startled by what I saw. I can't really say that I was
at maximum bend at that time, but I sure remember it looking like I could piss around the corner.

[alfapd]

Does anyone know which Iopmed model Dr Carol is using now?  Is the cost the same as the Physion (around $1300)? I was ready to order from him until I found this forum.  Now I want to read the specs on these devices.  If the 10's device produces the same 4.0 ma current I don't see what the difference would be.

I have 40 deg upward curve with wasting and I also tried topical verapamil with no success.  It looks like electricity is the way to go.

[DW]

I'm in my early 50's and was diagnosed over three years ago with Peyronies Disease.  I have what I'd call (at least) moderate curvature when erect and (at least) moderate discomfort during sex...definitely a detriment to our sex lives but my wife and I have been dealing with it as best we can.  (I say "moderate" because I don't really have anything to which to compare it and because we still are able to have at least somewhat pleasurable sex.)

I've been on TV from Peyronies Disease Labs for just under 18 months.  For the first 15 months I was on the regular dose: .5ml of 15% TV twice a day.  After telling them there was no change in the curvature or discomfort, they recommended I increase to 4x/day.  (I've been lucky as my insurance has picked up most of the cost.)  

Now, after 2 1/2 months on the 4x/day regimen I can still report no change.  (If anything my discomfort may have actually gotten worse over the last few months.)  

My instinct is of course to finally give up on this stuff but two factors are making me hesitate.  First, my urologist, (who never exactly endorsed the TV...it was more a case of "you can give it a try"), told me a couple of weeks ago that he MAY be detecting a slight to moderate reduction in the plaque.  And second, the stuff is basically free for me so the main downside is the annoyance of having to apply the stuff all the time and have it on my penis.  

So I'm interested in opinions...anyone think I should keep going with the TV given the possible reduction in plaque?  Has anyone heard of or experienced a case where nothing happens for as long as 15 months (or longer) and THEN start to improve?   Or on the flip side, anyone think that the possible reduction in plaque is irrelevant and that 15 months of no change in curvature or discomfort is totally reason enough to stop using the TV?

(My urologist is basically saying "you might want to just finish your current supply and then give up", but he also says "you might want to keep going just for the heck of it".  And I don't blame him at all for this ambivalence.  I feel that he's an honorable man and that this really is an honest and understandable attitude given the lack of a proven treatment for this disease.)

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Old Man]

DW:

There are only a few cases of TV use giving any good results that have been posted on the forum. I know of one individual that good success from repeated TV use. His story is posted somewhere on the posts way back in the topic, so look for it by doing a search with the search feature link in the upper right hand corner of the page above.

Since your doctor states that you may or may not have success with the TV and as long as you have been doing it, I would say that you need to give up on it and try something else. There are wide and varied "treatments/therapies" that have been tried by guys on this forum and most have posted their results herein. So, do some hard looking through the various threads/topics to see if there is anything that you would be interested in trying. Peyronies Disease therapy is much of a hit and miss proposition. You just have to find the right combination for you as no two cases of Peyronies Disease are alike and each responds, if any, in a different way.

As I said, read all you can on this forum and then develop a plan of your own and keep up whatever approach you try long enough to determine if it will work for you. We are all here to help in any way, so ask questions and someone will be able to help or at least steer you to a source for a good answer.

Good luck to you and keep the faith.

Old Man

[DW]

Old Man,

Thanks for your info and words of encouragement.  So are you saying that you believe the possible reduction in the size of my plaque is most likely irrelevant given that the discomfort and curvature are at least the same?  (I have read a bunch of posts on these boards and will dig deeper, but so far I haven't found anything that specifically covers a question such as mine.)

[Old Man]

DW:

Yes, the plaque/nodules can come and go at will it seems like in some cases. However, the underlying cause of the trauma or the trauma itself are still in the erectile tissue or tunica, etc.

In my case, my Peyronies Disease symptoms came and went several times in the over 50 years I have had this mess. In the inflammation stage, the nodules came on strong and as I treated the Peyronies Disease, some or in most cases the plaque and/or nodules disappeared. There seems to be no rule of thumb about Peyronies Disease and how it affects each individual. I firmly believe that every case is different than any other and has to be treated in different manners to achieve any good results. One just has to keep trying for some method of therapy that will work, whether it be oral, supplements, VED therapy or other means, etc.

So, a person just has to develop his own method of treatment/therapy. Mine just happened to be the VED and the exercise regimen.

Old Man

[Bobby Magee]

I,m newly diagnosed,,by my Prim. Care Phys.,,next week I see a Urologist,,,my Prim Care Doct,,,tells me he has 2 patients who are taking verapamil orally and the results are highly encouraging ...like I said I,m new ,,,but I dont see anything so far on this site reviewing verapamil oral,,,haven,t maybe looking right place an some one direct me or show me the way,,,anxiously waiting for advice  ,,,Bobby Magee

[Steve]

Never heard of oral Verapamil being used to treat Peyronies Disease...only high blood pressure.  I've taken Verapamil for years before developing Peyronies Disease, and it's now been 3 years since the Peyronies Disease started and I've been taking Verapamil pills all that time.  As I see it (from my experience anyway), oral Verapamil didn't keep me from developing Peyronies Disease, and has had no effect on my Peyronies Disease since then.

Good Luck!

Steve

[Bobby Magee]

Thank you Steve,,I,m soooo frustrated at this time,,,I had the symptoms 3 mths ago,,,slight bend upward,,aft 3 mths,seems to have stopped,at about 30 degrees,just last month I went on line and but in "bent penis",,and found what was going on Thank God for sites like this,  I went to Mass Gen Hosp. Bost,,,at urology I was told Nov. would be the earliest,for appt. Sheeeee told me that it was not an emergency!!!!!!!!!sso take it easy,,,I dont want to say here what I told her,,then proceeded to my Prim Care Phys,  he gave me the verapamil story,,I will see his rec. urologist 9-4-08,,,I maybe miss interrpeted  my Prim care,,,will share his prog. to you as soon as I see him.,,you people are the only line of communication I have today,  so thanks a million,  Bobby Magee  

[Hawk]

Actually Bobby, I would be interested to hear what you told the urology office.    

I also doubt that oral verapamil is used for Peyronies Disease.

[Ptolemy]

Is there a consensus on this forum on verapamil injections? Who has had injections and what do you see as the result?

I am unaware of any success/improvements posted. I believe Old Man believes injections caused him to develop more Peyronies nodes.

Dr Levine it appears injects verapamil in all the patients he has on Traction. His treatment appears a direct contrast to the experience of some on this forum.

I am tempted to try injections if a few here have had any positive experience. If not, I'm inclined to follow the collective wisdom here and avoid injections.

[LWillisjr]

Ptolemy,
I do go to Levine, and I think he is a great doctor. He will only do a series of 6 injections and then evaluate progress at that point. He told me directly that 60% of his patients respond favorably to his combines therapy of 1. meds, 2. traction, and 3. injections.

I had 6 injections and they didn't do anything for me, and is why I eventually ended up having surgery. I agree that the feedback of those on this forum don't support the injections. But I believe Levine, and that the injections must work for some. When I go to my appointments with him, there are guys flying in from around the U.S. to get these. I had an 11am appointment one day and his nurse told me they had done about 20 so far that day alone. So clearly there are many guys getting these, and they all haven't found this forum yet. So I think we have to stay open minded and realize that some therapies work for some, and not for all. There is a lot of value in this site from both a knowledge and emotional support standpoint. If one therapy isn't working, then try something else. I personally couldn't sit still, I had to find something that worked for me. The surgery was eventually it. And you'll find many here who are also against the surgery. And I wouldn't recommend the surgery to everyone.

I also know that Levine is starting trials with Xiaflex, but we haven't seen the results yet and I'm not sure how you get in to be part of a trial.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[jackp]

lwillisjr
Yes I am against injections into the penis but not what you are doing with Dr. Levine.
My problem with injections are the one for ED. That is PGE1 and trimix. There use can cause corporal fibrosis and make your condition worse. That is what happend to me.
Injections for a specific reasons by a qualified urologist should not cause a problem. IMHO
Stay away from injections for ED!!
Jackp

[Hawk]

Is there a consensus on this forum on verapamil injections? Who has had injections and what do you see as the result?

Ptolemy,  there certainly is not total agreement but we have survey results of those that have tried VI, both forum members and webvisitors.  Here is the survey results.
http://www.peyroniessociety.org/survey_ilv2.htm

note the totaled numbers under the survey table

In short, 72% either reported no improvement or a worsening condition (either because of or or in spite of VI)
28% reported some improvement.  It should also be noted that 80% 0f those reporting improvement reported only slight improvement.

It is important to understand that this is just an unscientiic survey and not a clinical study and has none of the controls of a controlled study.

[Ptolemy]

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I really appreciate you personal experience. Hawk, thanks also for pointing me to the survey. I remember reading this now when I first started visiting this forum a year or so back. I had forgotten. I had re-checked the child boards but there is no reference to Verapamil.

Well I will be avoiding injections now. Even in Dr. Levine's use it would appear he's never done injections alone to prove their value.

[LWillisjr]

Ptolemy,
Not true, and sorry for the confusion. I was simply referring to Levine's current therapy approach to someone with Peyronie's Disease. And he doesn't recommend this approach to all his patients. Each case is unique and may require a different therapeutic approach.

However, he did in fact do studies on VI injections alone in the 90's. I found a link to one of them here. http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/8189561?src=emed_ckb_ref_0

I'm sure you can google other's as well.

Jackp...   thanks on the clarification of ED injections vs. VI injections.

Les

[Ptolemy]

To avoid cutting and pasting let me say this:

The patients saw significant improvement in plaque-associated penile narrowing (100%) and curvature (42%). However, objectively there was a decreased plaque volume of greater than 50% in 30% of the patients.

Plaque softening was noted in all patients. 83% noticed that plaque-related changes in erectile function had arrested or improved. There was no toxicity nor did symptoms recur when improvement was noted.

Interesting. Those results are amazing. Granted there were only 14 men back in 1994. Why hasn't it caught on and why is our personal experience inconsistent with this?

[Hawk]

I am not sure I have seen this study but I did see one that Dr. Mulhall was associated with.  I found the results of that study to be unsupportive of the conclusions that they drew from the data.

First, lets be clear.  There is one factor by which Peyronies Disease improvement can legitimately be measured.  It cannot be measured by a reduction in pain (since that is the natural progress of Peyronies Disease).  It cannot be measured by reduction of plaque or softening of plaque for many reasons.  The limiting factor of Peyronies Disease is deformity.  That either gets better or the patient is not helped.  You indicate 58% saw no improvement.  Clearly some significant percentage of those saw some worsening.  It is very likely that some percentage of those that did see improvement saw only slight subjective improvement.

PS: Some differences between ED injections and Verapamil injections are that with Verapamil injections there are multiple punctures at each session as opposed to one puncture with an ED injection.  Another difference is that an ED injection uses almost the smallest gauge insulin needle made were VI uses a much larger gauge needle.

[LWillisjr]

I also found the following article which compares SEVERAL Intralesional Verapamil studies. Several by Dr. Levine including one published in the year 2000 with 156 participants.

http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v14/n5/full/3900917a.html

And this one that may be the one Hawk referred too:
http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/17572211?src=emed_ckb_ref_0

I'm not for or against VI Injections, I had a series of 6 and they did not help me. But clearly there are statistical facts here the it does help some men.

[Old Man]

Hawk:

The doctor that gave me my 12 VI injections did not believe in using deadener when giving the shots so I only had the one puncture for each shot. Since I have a high threshold of pain, they did not bother me at all. However, each and every injection gave a nodule or a small plaque formation.

Hence I am categorically against any injection into my prized possession at any time. This applies only to me, so others can choose to whatever they desire about injections.

Old Man

[Aldar]

I have a slight (15-20 degree) curvature to the left about halfway up the length of my penis. It's not that bad I guess, I'm still fully functional and pain is minimal, but it's impacting me psychologically. I took meds (pentox, vit E, Acetyl-L carnitine, etc.) for about a year with no noticeable changes so I thought I'd give the injections a try, only 2 though, 1 this Friday and 1 next Friday (well it's 2 visits, I don't know if there will be multiple injections per visit or not?) I know from reading that it has helped some here and not helped others. I was wondering if these shots will make my penis sore for a couple of days afterwards or has that not been an issue. I have a date the Saturday following the 1st injection is why I ask. Any input is appreciated.  

[Iceman]

ALDAR - your situation is similar to mine - it sounds very familiar - I am on all those meds but it seems they only numb the pain - I think people here may argue that these meds have been helpful in suppressing the disease and ensuring that it does not progress - so in that respect they have been helpful......

I would welcome other opinions on this matter....

[crooked canuck]

I went thru a series of 6 verapamil injections spaced over a 12 week period.  Definitely reduced the pain but had no effect on the curvature.  The doctor did n0t use anything to numb my penis before teh injection so there was a bit of pain....OK enough pain to make me quite uncomfortable.  I have come to believe that there are some places where a needle just should not go!!!  I have a big curvature so am thinking of applying for a job as a nude model for sculptors who make fountains, no longer have to worry about peeing on my shoes but gotta make sure I don't shoot over the top of urinals.  
OK maybe it's not so funny, my sex life sucks and the doctor is not sure what to do next.  

[Iceman]

crooked canuck - have you tried PENTOX or ALC??
These are oral medications that you should really be talking to your uro about - there is masses of information here on this forum about this..

[worried]

My doc prescribed topical verapamil...he doubted it would work but did tell me that ANY injections would cause futher plaque..it is that simple...he even kinda chided that in the old days they actually would inject cortosine right into the plaque...he said adding much more inflamation and trauma to the area was kinda like trying to put a a fire by pouring gas on it and saying ..well it is a liquid and the liquid might put out the fire ...  although his "cure" for this is surgery, he said that really was traumatic and inflamatory and not the best but actually the worst of all treatments but at teh endo of the line it is what is done as last resort...  had nothing to be optomistic about it other thatn to tell me a very famous living ex. Pres. has this condition and it is more common than "just me"

[Old Man]

worried:

Your doctor sounds like that he has had really good experience with Peyronies Disease patients. At least, he gave you the straight skinny about Peyronies Disease. Yes, surgery is the last resort for Peyronies Disease as he said and you should well remember his comments about it.

Verapamil injections have been tried by many of us without much success in helping with Peyronies Disease symptoms. Most of us suffered more plaque, nodules and inflammation as a result of the shots. There is a topic about verapamil treatments, so look it up and search through the posts to develop your own conclusion about using verapamil in any forum.

The living ex-president he told you about is Bill Clinton. One of my personal uros was a navy surgeon and was stationed at the Bethesda Naval Hospital. He was Pres. Clinton's urologist and he personally knows for a fact that the man has Peyronies Disease and in the worst form. Whether or not he has been able to get some relief from it, we don't know, but the man has tried many and varied treatments for it.

So, you can see that Peyronies Disease is no respecter of persons and just about anybody can have it. Again, as your doctor said, surgery is the last resort, so please look for other options before charging off to the knife.

Old Man

[voulezvous]

I suppose I should steer clear of this debate because it only adds to the confusion but I am one of the apparently few sufferers who has benefited from varapamil injections. I can't say why or how other than to report that over a 3 year period I have probably had 15 or so shots and they have definitely shrunk the plaque & I have yet to have any nodules or other negative side affects. My curvature remains around 90 degrees but the mass has clearly reduced and is softer. Obviously my uro is a believer although he is realistic in cautioning that I have a ways to go - and may never anything close to "normal" again. I have followed a fairly  strict discipline as advised by Old Man with the VED & I think it is helping. Otherwise, I continue to take mixed tocopheral vit. E . At this point I am as bewildered to understand this crazy affliction as anybody but I feel that it would be a disservice to others if I didn't offer a contrary opinion. Am I the only one?

[George999]

voulezvous,  Thanks for being brave enough to jump in and share this!  I think it is really important for ALL the relevant information to get shared.  Personally, I would not recommend any type of injections to anyone with Peyronie's, however, I am EXTREMELY happy that it is obviously working out for you.  It would be nice to see some sort of research trial demonstrating it to be safe for a broad range of guys though.  Again, things for sharing, that information needs to be part of the record so others can be more informed as they weigh their options.  - George

[Hawk]

voulezvous,

There is no reason to sit out a discussion.  I am curious however that you count no improvement in bend as improvement.  I am happy for your sense of progress but mot men cound improvement as a reduction in curve or deformity.  pain goes away on its own.  Plaque is mostly a concern only because it causes curve.  Erections can be influenced by so many factors.

Curve and curve and size (deformity) are the determining factor in improvement in my opinion.

[voulezvous]

Thanks for the encouragement. I meant to also include in my post (& will now) my total agreement with the exercise of caution with regard to any injections. In no way do I doubt that others have had very negative results from shots. Hopefully, any ethical uro will detect swelling or nodules or worsening conditions before continuing shots but I firmly believe that we are the best judges of what what's going on in our "joints" & bear the responsibility. I suspect that, like me, most of us are familiar by feel with every centimeter & check daily for changes. I'm also sure that some days I imagine progress & other days I imagine reversal. My evidence of shrinkage is supported by Doppler readings.

As to the bend situation, I have asked my uro the same question & his response has been that a small amount of plaque can cause a bend as much as a large lump. To me this makes sense as I think of anything being "held down". It doesn't matter if its a 2 inch rope or a thread. If its still attached by anything, its still attached. The bend will be there until the plaque has totally dissipated.

[George999]

While we are on this issue I would like to make it emphatically clear that I believe *PAIN* to be a *BAD* thing.  I believe the *ABSENCE* of pain to be a *GOOD* thing.  Additionally, I believe *LARGE* plaques to be a *BAD* thing and the *ABSENCE* of large plaques to be a *GOOD* thing.  Of course we would all like the deformities to go away as well, but the more pain and the more large plaques, the more the likelihood of ADDITIONAL deformities.  There is also the widely propagated myth that Peyronie's goes through "stages" and the pain comes and then goes and thats that.  The problem is that in real life it doesn't work out that way.  That pain can come back at any time and, with it, new and larger plaques and before you know it, the deformity you had is nothing compared to what you have now.  So, the biggest benefit of the stuff we now have available is the fact that it keeps things from getting worse.  And thats about the best you can do most of the time.  One might argue that the VED can resolve the deformity.  And while that is true in the short term, in the longer term as soon as you stop using the VED, the deformity will reassert itself.  I am not saying this to knock the VED, rather my point is the opposite.  Getting rid of the deformity has value EVEN IF it is temporary AND stopping the progress of Peyronie's with anything, even TV or VED, has significant value, is a benefit in and of itself, and shouldn't be knocked.  - George

[wayne999]

Has anyone had any success with topical verapamil? My uro told me I do not have Peyronies Disease but congenital curvature but still gave me a prescription for TV from Peyronies Disease LABS. What's the cost like for these things and is there any point if i don't have Peyronies Disease? (I've noticed uro's always diagnose me with congenital, but add in "you can try vit E" or other things like that related to Peyronies Disease).

[Ticker]

Wayne999,I didn't have any luck with it.After I complained to them,they doubled the dose at no additional charge but I spent almost $2 Grand! Without any improvement.My opinion is that is does not work!