ARCHIVE: Verapamil - Injections & Topical Applications including Iontophoresis

[Tim468]

I did Ionto and it did not help me. Like many offered cures it has not been studied in a proper fashion IMHO.

I tried different doses, called different companies and talked to their tech people (including Physion and those who make the usual ionto pads in Utah)(forget their name).

Not much is known, but I do know that more current will not make it all better. The charged molecule either goes in or it does not go in. A longer time on lower current gives the same benefit.

Tim

[amigo]

Thanks Hawk, J., and Tim.  The early Italian studies on this were so encouraging.  *Sigh*  On the other hand, $1300 buys a lot of lap dances, which is all but guaranteed to at least TEMPORARILY improve bloodflow to mi "amiguito".  Anyone else interested in staging a research group - An hour of lap dances 2 or three nights a week?  Maybe we could get a grant... hell, maybe they could save us a step and just give us the grant money in singles.

[Tim468]

Interesting study...

Cavallini G. Modenini F. Vitali G. Open preliminary randomized prospective clinical trial of efficacy and safety of three different verapamil dilutions for intraplaque therapy of Peyronie's disease. [Journal Article. Randomized Controlled Trial] Urology. 69(5):950-4, 2007 May.


Objectives

To investigate the efficacy and safety of three different dilutions of verapamil used in intraplaque injections in an attempt to reduce Peyronie's disease symptoms.

Methods

A total of 77 patients (age 48 ± 9 years) with chronic Peyronie's disease were randomized into three groups, each receiving 12 intraplaque injections (1 injection every 2 weeks) of 10 mg verapamil in different dilutions. Group 1 (27 patients) received verapamil 10 mg/4 mL, group 2 (24 patients) received verapamil 10 mg/10 mL, and group 3 (26 patients) received verapamil 10 mg/20 mL. The variables, assessed before and 8 months after therapy, were erectile function (assessed by semistructured interview), plaque size, peak systolic velocity, end-diastolic velocity, left and right cavernosal arteries (assessed with dynamic Duplex ultrasonography), pain (assessed with a pain scale), penile curvature (measured using a photograph of a pharmacologically induced full erection), and side effects. Analysis of variance and the chi-square test were used to analyze the differences among the groups.

Results

No significant differences were found in the baseline values among the groups. The peak systolic velocity of the left and right cavernosal arteries was never significantly modified. The plaque area, penile curvature, erectile function, end-diastolic velocity of the left and right cavernosal arteries, and pain improved more significantly in group 3 than in groups 1 and 2. The side effects were ecchymosis, with no significant differences among the groups.

Conclusions

The dilution of verapamil significantly improved its efficacy in improving Peyronie's disease symptoms.  

[Hawk]

Tim,

Rather than research this I will expose my ignorance and ask.  I take it the designation 10mg/20mL indicates only the amount of Verapamil (10mg), in an amount of solution (20 mL).  I also take it that this addresses the concentration and dilution of the injected solution with 10mg/20 mL being the weakest.  Am I correct in saying this has nothing to do with the volume of solution injected but only the strength or concentration of the solution?


Hawk

[Steve]

Hawk,

The way I read Tim's post, everyone received 10mg of Verapamil.  Some received it in 4ml of solution, some in 10ml, and some in 20ml, so the volume of solution changed, but not the quantity of the drug:

A total of 77 patients...receiv(ed) injections...of 10 mg verapamil in different dilutions

It's interesting that the lowest concentration (and hence the largest volume) resulted in the most significant improvement!  Perhaps it's not the drug, but the volume and subsequent 'swiss-cheesing' of the plaque (to use Dr Levine's analogy) that's causing the improvement?  I'm wondering if some researcher might key on this and make another study.

Steve

[Tim468]

Good points guys.

One way to view it is that more volume is better - for all we know, simply pumping the penis full of saline made it bigger! Seriously, there are details that need to be shared. IF, as we suspect, the only variable is the amount of saline, then why might it be better? It might be that a greater volume, injected into plaque, breaks it apart better than a smaller volume, and that the verapamil is irrelevent. Some data that use just saline for a control (versus a single dose of verapamil) suggest this is true. They say it "might increase hydrodistension and cracking of the plaques" (meaning more volume crammed into a tissue is more likely to break it apart)

I am not sure I can posit a rationale for a different concentration being better per se. Drug is drug.

Tim

Here is their discussion in the paper:

*************************

Our data support the hypothesis that dilution of 10 mg verapamil to a final volume of 20 mL with injectable saline improves the efficacy of intraplaque injections, without significantly increasing the side effects. An attempt to use a greater dilution (10 mg verapamil/30 mL) during the course of the preparation tests failed because of the difficulty and fatigue of injecting into the hard plaques. Only the plaque area and EDV significantly improved after therapy in all groups. The other variables showed a positive trend in groups 1 and 2, probably because of the low number of tested patients. Group 3 displayed significant improvements for all the tested variables.

It is accepted that by decreasing the plaques, penile deformity and pain improve because of the reduced traction on sensitive nerves and/or the anti-inflammatory activity of the drugs.10 In contrast, however, certain relationships between ED and Peyronies Disease are contradictory. Some investigators believe that Peyronies Disease may directly affect erectile function by way of venous leakage,12 endothelial/inducible nitric oxide metabolism alterations,13 and/or microstructural disorders of the albuginea,14 and other investigators have denied any association between Peyronies Disease and ED.15 Our data have shown that an improvement in pain, plaque, and penile deformity parallels the improvement in EDV and ED, but the cause of EDV improvement is obscure. High EDVs were associated with arterial ED, psychogenic ED, and venous leakage.10 Peyronies Disease might cause psychogenic ED because of pain10 and 15 and/or shame about the penile aspect15; therefore, it is unknown whether ED improvement is linked to an improvement in pain, penile aspect, and/or venous leakage.

We have no direct explanation for the efficacy of the verapamil dilution. We found no indication in published series indicating that dilution might improve the pharmacologic activity of verapamil. Verapamil inhibits secretion and synthesis of the extracellular matrix, increases collagenase and anti-transforming growth factor-beta activity, and displays antiproliferative activity.4 The progressive dilutions that we used might increase hydrodistension and cracking of the plaques. Extracorporeal shock wave therapy has been used in an attempt to crack plaques, but a recent prospective, blind, controlled trial disproved any effectiveness of extracorporeal shock wave therapy.16 Therefore, we postulated that plaque cracking induced by hydrodistension is more effective in reducing Peyronies Disease symptoms than extracorporeal shock wave therapy-induced cracking. We do not know whether hydrodistension reduces Peyronies Disease symptoms directly or by immune system stimulation. Recent studies have attributed the characteristics of biologically transformed cells to Peyronies Disease fibroblasts.17 Biologically transformed tissue growth is in dynamic equilibrium with the immune system, which interferes either specifically (ie, with tumor-specific and individual-specific effector cells [T lymphocytes and dendritic cells]) or not specifically (ie, activating endogenous reactions such as proinflammatory cytokines and macrophages). A nonspecific response was improved by intralesional injections of "inert" substances by mechanical stimulation.18 Some drugs effective in combating Peyronies Disease (propionyl-l-carnitine, acetyl-l-carnitine, and interferon-alpha-2B) have been found to boost the immune response.19 Theoretically, the efficacy of the type of needle used in administering the drug for Peyronies Disease cannot be discounted, but no mention of this was found in published reports.

Hormones were also tracked in this study to exclude patients with hormone-associated ED or those who had no ED but who had hormonal alterations that might have affected their sexual function during the course of the study.

Our follow-up was deliberately short to separate possible drug-related improvements from any spontaneous changes in disease severity. Occasional spontaneous resolution of Peyronies Disease has been reported, but these only took place over several years. Therefore, short-term variations in disease severity should help to distinguish the effect of drugs from spontaneous changes.6

The Helsinki Declaration of Human Rights does not allow for the exposure of humans to potentially dangerous therapies (ie, to not treat at all or to treat a progressive disease such as Peyronies Disease with a placebo). Therefore, the Società Italiana di Studi di Medicina della Riproduzione institutional review board did not allow the use of a placebo or untreated groups in this study. Open studies are performed as forerunners for double-blind placebo-controlled clinical trials of new pharmaceutical regimens, and our study should be considered as such.

The different injected volumes did not allow for any blinding procedure. In an attempt to overcome any possible bias from the lack of blinding, the following procedures were adopted. First, three (instead of two) different verapamil dilutions were used; because their efficacy increased from the lowest to the highest, the effectiveness of the 20-mL dilution was confirmed. Second, a single physician (G.C.), unaware of the treatment status, performed the duplex Doppler examinations, and measured the penile curvature.

The interobserver or intraobserver variability in curvature and plaque measurement assessments could not be assessed because only one physician performed the duplex Doppler examinations. Also, it was stressed that the plaque should be measured 5 to 10 minutes after PGE1 injection, during the latency/tumescence phase; therefore, only one plaque measurement/dynamic duplex Doppler session could be performed.10 An attempt to perform two or three sessions caused too many dropouts during pretesting research. Because 18 patients needed a Trimix intracavernosal injection to reach a full erection, multiple assessments of the penile curvature measurement were not considered because of the danger of priapism.

Conclusions

The strength of this report is that it presents an inexpensive and safe method for improving the efficacy of verapamil on plaques. Our findings also suggest that more studies should be executed to ascertain whether the dilution of intraplaque-injectable drugs could be extended to other substances that have proved or will be proven effective in combating Peyronies Disease symptoms.

[j]

Over the years I've seen studies from Italy showing good results with Acetyl-L-Carnitine, hyperthermia, and Verapamil.  Unfortunately none of these treatments seem to work here in the U.S.   - maybe it's something in the air or the water - so I guess we need to go over there.   Hope to see some of you guys on the plane - I'll be wearing a pretzel on my lapel.

Or maybe we should hop a flight to Cuba, where they can cure you with bee propolis...

[Liam]

wolfr said in the "Traction" topic:

I had a consultation with Dr. John Mulhall (in NYC) in July of 2007 and began intralesional verapamil injections in August of 2007.  Dr. Mulhall's treatment regimen consists of 6 sets of injections, each treatment is separated by 2 weeks. Dr. Mulhall described the goal of this therapy to be stabilization of the plaques.  He was careful to say that I should not expect the injections to reverse my deformity.

PABA does that without needles.  The plaque stabilizes on its own frequently, too.  Also, when the injections end, does he guarantee your plaque will never progress.  I can't believe he would subject you to the shots without believing it,at least, may improve your condition.

[tman]

Man, I am getting ready to see my uro and I am really afraid to try Verapamil injections even if he wanted to try.  Seems there is more against them than for them.

[dahc]

Tman,

You should definitely ask your urologist lots of questions before you do the injections. I didn't have a horrible experience with my set of injections, no pain and only minor brusing on 2 occasions. I think the key is making multiple passes through the plaque with needle as my urologist and Dr. Levine do.

Dac  

[Johnny]

I last posted on this board several months ago just prior to getting a series of VI (which was shortly after I was diagnosed with Peyronies Disease). I'm 33 and have a congenital curve down. The Peyronies Disease was centered toward the underside tip of my penis on both sides which led to a bend to the right. I am still on a regimen of Vit E and Vasoflow.

The injections were less than pleasant but I kept them up until the set was over. That's 6 injections...1 every two weeks.

As far as change, there has been a very slight change in the Peyronies Disease bend for the better. Pain is gone almost 95% now (more than likely a function of being 8 months into the disease). The tip of my penis is still soft during most erections.

The largest change is the addition of plaques at the left base (adds a curve to the right during soft erections but this goes away during hard erections) AND a "ridge" running along the top of my penis in a straight line for about 3/4 of an inch. Neither of these inhibit erections but the development of plaque running along the top has mostly eliminated my congenital curve down (a strange but welcome bonus for now!).

I do not think that the injections have helped in my situation.

Now, with multiple compound curves in my penis, I'm thinking of getting into the locksmithing business. There isn't a door lock that I can't unlock in less than 10 seconds.

J

[Steve]

Johnny,  Thanks for the chuckle!  We ALL need that!

[kbmw]

Steve ask,
"I'd still like to hear from others who've already undergone injections or iontophoresis to get some first-hand results."

Read the historical post. It's easy to discover that all of this available "treatment" doesn't work and it borders on voodoo medicine. Go back and read my post on injections.

It's clear that the treatments listed here have little more chance of success than spontaneous remission.

[dahc]

There are at least 2 doctors(my urologist & Dr. Levine) that claim to 60% rate of improvement with Verapamil Injections. Perhaps it's their method of delivery(multiple passes through the plaque) and not the Verapamil? But to call one the few available therapies available for Peyronie's "voodoo medicine"??? I'm glad I had the shots, no pain & a little bruising twice. I was also using traction and went from a 45 degree curve to 29 degree curve, who knows what the result would have been if using only one or the other. I think at the very least the Verapimil stabilized the P.D. Since I'm only in my 9th month of this crappy disorder I consider that a plus.

I would hate to see someone newly diagnosed and perusing this site to think "Verapamil?, better stay away from that" when according to many highly respected doctors that specialize in Peyronie's Disease it has been and can be effective in some patients.  

[Tim468]

The indictment of "voodoo" medicine was not for just Verapamil, but for all the medications recommended that don't help everyone.

Pretty much everyone with a strep throat is going to improve on an antibiotic. It is really frustrating to have a problem, with all the different meds having an about 30% efficacy. Since that is the frequency of "spontaneous" remission in some reports, it is always disheartening to realize that your new therapy may not work.

In my case, not one single therapy has really "worked". However, I do believe that some of it has helped along the way:

1) VED has improved my longsatanding dorsal curvature from about 30-35 degrees to about 15-20 degrees. Based on worsening while away from it on a two week vacation, I think it has also prevented worsening of some new lesions on the left side - which are now dents instead of sites of angulation.

2) Verapamil iontophoresis helpd me when I had an acute injury during sex last year to take a developing 30 sharp angled bend to the left (about 1 inch from the tip) to no discernible angulation at all. I am uncertain if it helped in any other ways over time.

3) HGW and Cialis have helped with rigidity, which has helped reduce risk of injury and with borderline ED. Not really "Peyronie's" treatments, but relevent to what causes us to get worse IMHO.

Not sure of any effects from Vitamin E, Advil, ALC, PLC, etc.

Tim

[kbmw]

dahc,
You are right. "Voodoo" is not accurate. Snake oil is better. Just what does "improvement rate" consist of? My Urologist claimed he could detect a change meaning improvement. I started at 45 degrees and that was how I finished. When an "improvement" occurs how could you be certain it was the injections. There is a  lot of wishful thinking going on with Peronies victims.

I have also talked to Urologist who tell the truth. Injections don't work. If the likes of Levine told you that there was little chance that injections would cure you and that maybe you might see an improvement how many takers would he have. This is a lucrative revenue stream for Urologist that do it. Little effort big bucks.

Tim,  you are right. Some of these crazy formulas and topicals are just laughable.

[tman]

I have also talked to Urologist who tell the truth. Injections don't work. If the likes of Levine told you that there was little chance that injections would cure you and that maybe you might see an improvement how many takers would he have. This is a lucrative revenue stream for Urologist that do it. Little effort big bucks.

That is what my uro just told me Friday, he has given injections but will tell his patients that you dont know if its the injection or just improving on its own.  He thought most treatments you hear of are a waste of money.  

[j]

Just by following this (and other) forums over the last several years, I've concluded that verapamil does nothing. I don't mean to dismiss reports of improvement, but for every such report I've probably seen 10 reports of complete failure.

We keep hearing about attempts to "deliver" verapamil by various means - topical, iontophoresis, injection - but what I don't see is any scientific evidence that verapamil has any effect on this tissue at all, no matter how it gets there or in what quantity.  Someone had the thought, years ago, that because verapamil seemed to increase collagenase production in a lab experiment,  it might be useful for fibrotic conditions like Peyronie's.  A good idea that appears not to have panned out in actual human bodies. Nevertheless urologists keep trying various expensive and painful ways to "deliver" this drug year after year, in the absence of any supporting research.

If verapamil injections actually worked, they'd be in widespread use for Dupuytren's contracture, where the market is huge and the fibrotic tissue is easy to see and inject.  

[dahc]

I was prepared to get blasted with my original posting and I'm not disappointed. It does suprise me how absolutist the "Verapamil is Snakeoil" crowd is. I have read of guys that experienced a lot of pain and had terrible bruising with the injections, wasn't my case at all. If you had a bad experience or no results, I'm sorry.

BTW, If I thought I was being treated as nothing but a revenue stream by any doctor he'd be fired.  

[j]

dahc, I don't disbelieve your report of improvement or rule out the possibility that verapamil had something to do with it.  What I should have said is that verapamil "does nothing" in the overwhelming majority of cases. Anyone who'd read all the posts here over the years would have to conclude the same thing.

Maybe it does work, in certain circumstances, on some people; but it appears that the odds are so poor that it doesn't make sense to undergo the treatment. As always - if you gamble and win, well, then you win.

Maybe I should disclose a personal bias: on the advice of a urologist I blew about $2800 on PDL's Topical Verapamil and applied it as directed for the better part of a year; it did nothing.

[dahc]

J,

I did say in my post that perhaps it wasn't the Verapamil but the making "swiss cheese"(my doctors words) out the plaque. Maybe it's all technique and not so much the Verapamil?

$2800 ouch! I bought the FS extender $275 plus several new baggier pairs of pants. Not to mention supplements, co-pays and deductables on doctors visit and Cialis. It adds up fast.

[j]

The idea of simply perforating the fibrotic tissue enough to let it stretch is essentially the fabled "Leriche Technique" which was reportedly tried successfully in France a few years ago.  Then, naturally, it sank without a trace. No one apparently does it today and the authors of the study don't reply to email.  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15776920&dopt=AbstractPlus

I guess urologists don't want to risk going in there with a needle unless it's also delivering about a thousand bucks worth of medication.

[Liam]

I think we should start asking our doctors about the theory of perforations in the plaque causing improvement.  Maybe, in turn, they will start talking and a buzz will be started in the urological community.

[j]

Liam, you're right.   And I'm sure many of them would nod and say "sounds very interesting."   The challenge would be for one of them (a surgeon, I assume) to decide to actually attempt it.  

You might know that a similar procedure is now used for Dupuytren's contractures. Like the Leriche technique it orginated in Paris, but it became popular over there and has been done successfully in several European locations for many years. In the last couple of years a few U.S. surgeons have finally started doing it. Their waiting rooms are overflowing.

[Johnny]

When I was getting my injections recently, I talked to my doc about the swiss cheese idea. He even brought up the fact that at their last conference it was mentioned several times. The main response was that it was a short lived benefit in trials. The docs say that the plaque tends to fill back in where the holes were made.

Three days after my last injection I did have an interesting 24 hours...things pretty much straightened out. I was shocked to wake up with a nearly straight woody. It continued to stay straight for the next day, but as time wore on the bend came back. Must have been either swelling just in the right spot or...i dunno.

Ahh, to dream of straight wood one day...

j

[j]

Hand surgeons raised the same objection to the needle perforation procedure: recurrence would be higher than with conventional surgery. This may be true (although I think the evidence isn't there) but that's hardly the whole story. Surgery for Dupuytren's is brutal, recovery is tedious, you're disabled for months. The needle procedure takes 20 minutes and you're good to go with just a band-aid; and it can be repeated if necessary, unlike surgery which leaves your hands full of scar tissue.

[Hawk]

I talked to my doc about the swiss cheese idea. He even brought up the fact that at their last conference it was mentioned several times. The main response was that it was a short lived benefit in trials. The docs say that the plaque tends to fill back in where the holes were made.

Johnny,

Doctors often do what we do here, speculate, theorize, and even guess.  Granted, they may be better equipped to do so, but speculation is speculation.  I know of no trials where different methods of injecting Verapamil were tested in a controlled study.  I know of no controlled study comparing VI to non Verapamil injections, and I certainly know of no studies with objective imaging that show needle holes fill back in with plaque without Verapimail vs with Verapamil.  

[Liam]

I'm going to think out loud.  If traction followed perforation, even if the holes "filled in", they would "fill in differently - maybe straighter.

[Tim468]

I'm going to think out loud.  If traction followed perforation, even if the holes "filled in", they would "fill in differently - maybe straighter.

Bingo.

And if the holes and tunica have a contractile process ongoing, it won't be as good.

Tim

[dahc]

Liam & Tim,

You read my mind!!!  

[Ptolemy]

My experience with Verapamil is extremely disappointing and my views on "PDLabs," the supplier are that their website is misleading at best and possibly filled with lies. Under my Urologists' recommendation I applied Verapamil for 14 moths at a cost of approximately $3000 based primarily on the claims and testimonies on their website. I endured unbelievable itch for those 14 months and it was a total waste. The way they tried to keep me on the drug was very unprofessional and disingenuous.

I'm now on the vacuum therapy.

[Hawk]

Ptolemy,

Welcome to the forum.  It is not an over statement to say that your post in "Our Histories" is inspirational.  I am sorry for your experience with PDL labs.

You are not alone in your assessment.  Have you seen this very interesting report?  If not scroll to the bottom of the page and read it from the beginning. https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,328.0.html

[j]

Ptolemy - welcome to the "PDL Club", an elite group whose members have spent thousands of dollars, and hundreds of hours, applying this product as directed with no noticeable results.  Sorry to say I'm a member too.  

It just astounds me that urologists continue to prescribe it.  

[Ptolemy]

Thanks for the welcome. That was an amazing write-up of research and experience by comebackkid. I could vouch for much of his experience. Talk about a company that kicks you when you're down.

[soxfan]

Hi All,

I came across this substance and it sounds like it may be of some benefit. As such, I decided to order a tube, and it is very reasonably priced. Buyer beware is always in order but I will post the product description and a link to the site.

Cheers.

Hirudoid
Get rid of bruises & scars with Hirudoid
Hirudoid contains a special ingredient called MPS (mucopolysaccharide) which helps improve the appearance of bruises, prevents inflammation and relieves pain & tension in the affected area.

Hirudoid is used for haematomas, softening of hard scars and inflamed veins.

Your skin relies on the presence of MPS in the tissue. The effectiveness of any skin cream depends on its absorption and scientific studies have shown that the MPS in Hirudoid penetrates the skin and is able to reach the dermal layers in effective concentrations.

HOW DOES HIRUDOID WORK?

The activating influence of Hirudoid has a beneficial effect on the appearance of scars. The MPS in Hirudoid is able to attract water and therefore loosen the connective tissue preventing a dense accumulation of the fibres which create a thick scar. Several studies have shown that Hirudoid softens scars, increases flexibility of the scar tissue, reduces redness and results in a better cosmetic appearance.

Hirudoid
Get rid of bruises & scars with Hirudoid
Hirudoid contains a special ingredient called MPS (mucopolysaccharide) which helps improve the appearance of bruises, prevents inflammation and relieves pain & tension in the affected area.

Hirudoid is used for haematomas, softening of hard scars and inflamed veins.

Your skin relies on the presence of MPS in the tissue. The effectiveness of any skin cream depends on its absorption and scientific studies have shown that the MPS in Hirudoid penetrates the skin and is able to reach the dermal layers in effective concentrations.

[hascal]

Hello All - I have just finished my 3rd iontophoresis w/verapamil - I am scheduled for one each week into Jan 22nd. So far all I have noticed is a burning sensation along the side of my penis where the electrode is attached but that goes away about 30 min after I leave. I don't know if I am hoping too hard but I seem to think my placque is smaller. I still have an upward curve when erect, and I will try to find a method to measure the angle to track any improvement. My URO is very insistent on the use of a VED. OLD MAN is a proponent and I thank him for his advice. I will decide before my next visit if I wish to try it. I have to travel 60 miles one way to have this treatment. Oddly enough he wanted the name of this website since I told him it was strictly a forum and not a "shill" to sell all those products that promise immediate relief if you send in a couple hundred bucks  . Will check in again in a few weeks so many thanks for the help. HASCAL

[antony]

Hello all,

i'm sorry if you have already spoken of that i dont find it , and i dont know if i am on good topic, have somedoby tried 'procaine' injections? (or just tell me the topic where it deals with it please if it has already been mentioned) , thank you

[Hawk]

Antony,

The best was to find out is type procaine in the SEARCH feature here on the forum and see what it brings up.  Also I suggest that before you post that you click on the SPELL CHECK button.  If you learn to use these and a few other forum feature it will radically increase your enjoyment of the forum.

If you need any help with these, just ask.

[antony]

Thanks Hawk, i will have a look.

[bodoo2u]

Soxfan, whatever happened with the tube of Hirudoid cream that you ordered. Did you experience any positive, or negative, results? Did anyone else ever give it a try? I just came across the post from November, and it sounds interesting.

[Grant]

I read the post about Hirudoid cream and started scanning the net for information. Initially I thought it was worth trying, with claims of having carrying agents to reach deep into the skin. I came across an information leaflet which had this caution in it:

        ' This cream must not be swallowed or used on or near sensitive areas such as the
mouth, eyes or ano-genital region.'

Pardon my ignorance (I understand the term genitals) but is 'ano-genital' referring to anus, testicles, and penis? I was going to order some until I read that line. What's your thought on this?

[gnosis]

I heard Mulhall say that Pentoxiphylline works in the research dishes with plaque but not as clearly in the body.
I wonder if anyone has tried iontophoresis with Pentox  

[nemo]

 I read in the Oral Medications thread a while back about Aspercream ... some questioning whether it might help relieve the pain/discomfort associated with Peyronie's for some men.

Has anyone actually tried this?  Any reason to believe it could cause any harm?  I'm thinking about giving it a try.

[Old Man]

Nemo:

Since Aspercreme does penetrate the affected areas of where is it applied, there should be no reason that it would help with the pain or discomfort of Peyronies Disease symptoms.

I would use it with caution and monitor it carefully to preclude any side effects such as redness or irritation, etc.

As to whether or not it would have any effect on the plaque, nodules and other things, your guess would be as good as anyones.

Just try it and see what happens.

Old Man

[Tim468]

I often use aspercreme after using the pump. I don't know that it helps at all - I have used Vitamin E, aloe vera and Emu oil. All basicly allowed me to lubricate up after having been soaking in soapy warm fluids during my pumping session. Mostly it is neutral.

Tim

[nemo]

I think I'll give it a try then.  I'll let you know my results.  Just wanted to make sure it wouldn't hurt anything.

EDITED to say:  Tried some Aspercreme.  Can't say it really did anything, as Tim predicted.  No irritation or anything, but didn't eliminate the "sensation" I've been feeling, which I presume is inflamation.  Oh well, nothing ventured, nothing gained.  

[piper]

Does anyone know of a Urologist in Ontario, Canada who does Varapamil injections?   I heard there is one near Guelph, but don't know details.

A name would be greatly appreciated.

[Old Man]

Piper:

Suggest you try doing a Google search for a urologist in your immediate vicinity. It should bring up a list of uros or at least a site you can search for one.

Old Man

[nemo]

When you buy an Ionto machine from the company in Italy, who supplies the Verapamil, the company, or do you have to get a prescription from your doctor?

Nemo

[Tim468]

When I ordered the machine, I got it as a deal with the machine and the verapamil and decadron combo that the Italian docs studied. I forget the details now. Then I did another round using different application patches (the Italian chambers didn't work too well) and using just pure Verapamil (at a higher dose too). Neither did much for me, though I do belive that a leftward bend was stopped and reversed by verapamil.

It left me thinking that an acute onset (perhaps even the first 6-9 months)might be more treatable, but longstanding disease is not - which is what the authors concluded as well.

Tim