VED's - Vacuum Erection Devices

[NewlyDxd]

So it turns out I'm congenital and not Peyronies; I was seen by a urologist today who said given my history and the fact that no mass is palpable, its most likely congenital.  He told me not to use the VED b/c my pathology is most likely anatomical; just thought I'd share.

[Liam]

Congenital curve is a piece of tissue that is too short as compared to tissue around it causing a bend (the condensed and simplified version).  If a VED can, theoretically, reshape plaque over time, could it not reshape tissue more easily?

Just a thought.

Liam

[wasa]

NewlyDxd: I would be cautious relying on the diagnose of just one urologist, ofcourse I don't know your history. But I have visited 3 urologists so far and no plaques were found by palpation and by ultrasound. Yet I have a serious upward curve and I have noticed today i already have about 2cm shortening of my erect penis together with smaller girth, this in less then 2 years time.
 
I read somewhere on this board that there was another manifestation of Peyronies Disease where plaques are not found on the usual place, but somewhere else. Could anybody explain this to me, I did read a good scientific article with a lot of patients about diagnosing Peyronies Disease and there they stated that about 90% of Peyronies Disease could be diagnosed with ultrasound, however around 10% (i think even less) showed no signs of Peyronies Disease with palpation or ultrasound. MRI did reveal plaques. The curve was mostly at the base of the penis, which is incidentally the same as I have.
One more question, should Peyronies Disease diminish by taking supplements, etc. , does the lost length and girth of the penis come back? I sure hope so :/

[NewlyDxd]

Wasa, do you mean that the plaques weren't palpable but were confirmed in your case by ultrasound?  The thing is, I remember my penis being this way for as long as I can remember.. in fact, I remember the movie Clueless, where theres this line that the girl says when talking about sex, something to the effect of "Oh I hate when they're shaped like bananas" and me thinking (I believe I was in elementary school/middle school at the time) Wait they're not all shaped like that?

Liam, to be honest, I'm not sure, because I don't understand how VEDs would not evenly stretch both sides of the penis.  I'm going to try out other urologists and see what they say.

[wasa]

Wasa, do you mean that the plaques weren't palpable but were confirmed in your case by ultrasound?  The thing is, I remember my penis being this way for as long as I can remember.. in fact, I remember the movie Clueless, where theres this line that the girl says when talking about sex, something to the effect of "Oh I hate when they're shaped like bananas" and me thinking (I believe I was in elementary school/middle school at the time) Wait they're not all shaped like that?

Liam, to be honest, I'm not sure, because I don't understand how VEDs would not evenly stretch both sides of the penis.  I'm going to try out other urologists and see what they say.

No, in my case they couldn't find any plaques, and the urologist didn't want to do MRI, because, in his words: "what's the point, there is no cure anyway". If you have a curve as long as you can remember then you probably have congenital curve yes, and not peyronie.  

[ComeBacKid]

Wasa,

My doctor refused to do an ultrasound as well, whats the point?  That was his line of thinking, I leaned on him hard to do it and he still wouldn't.  Instead of saying there was no cure he offered me verapamil injections saying some saw some kind of improvment- no data to back him up.  Just checking out or own survery on this forum on tv injections makes one very skeptical.  

ComeBackid

[PJ]

So as it turns out my insurance does not pay for or even contribute to the cost of 'durable medical equipment' and the VED of choice is a bit on the expensive side for me right now. I did a search for that url that Tim posted for that website that sells stuff to build your own. I really did try even scanning through all the back posts on this thread, but I failed to find it. Can someone please help me out here and repost that url.
Thanks!
PJ

[Angus]

   Tims post with those links is reply #479 in this thread. Replies are numbered sequentially so you can go to previous pages and find it. I made my own out of acrylic and vinyl tubing plus some pvc caps from building supply centers. Mine are a few years old and work just fine. If you want to read about them it's all in reply #126 in this thread. Many can't afford the Soma and others... these two posts provide alternative ways to have VED's. You can assemble one from purchased components or make one from scratch in your shop or on a kitchen table.
   Both posts can also be found in the Newly Diagnosed section Highlights of VED's post.  

[ComeBacKid]

PJ,

All my insurance would cover was $146, they claim that is the amount their VED costs in network.  Since I went out of network to purchase the soma correct with the three different cylinders I ended up paying $500 and some.  I tried to explain the three cylinder system, they still rejected it.  I challenged my reimbursment by writing a letter and lost, and than appealed again to my main insurance provider and lost again. Its worth a shot on appeal, you should get some reimbursment for your VED.  My provider told me that Augusta Medical sysems is overcharging by hundreds for their product.  When I told Mike from Augusta Medical Systems this, he claimed they were charging more but lifetime customer support is included, a lifetime warranty, and he said I'm paying for the "research and developement," for the three cylinder system.

ComeBackid

[Hawk]

ComeBackid,

Augusta may have development costs but I think their use of "research" needs some explaining. The VED principle is not rocket science, especially after 400 other manufactures have done it ranging from $20.00 to $600.00.  They have not hired professionals and manned randomized, double-blind studies, so I would laugh when they made the "research" statement.  It is 3 tubes that suck (literally).  Up until recently, it sucked and pinched.  

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is not a good VED, but adding a tube insert, or a testicle rest, or a transistor radio on a VED cannot require a lot of research.  As far as warranty is concerned, we know that buying materials in bulk that this VED costs them no more than $60 to make.  If they totally replaced every VED 5 times through warranty they still made a hefty profit.

I prefer a man to tell me, "We charge $ 600.00 because that is what the market will bear, and we can.  That is much more refreshing than blowing smoke.

[ComeBacKid]

Hawk,

Don't take my post as a defense of Augusta, I just wanted to post Mike's reply to my question on why their product costed so much, in order to be fair.  Your right the market will bear their pricetag, simply because they are a monoply in selling three cylinder systems.  I think they claimed some studies were going on , that was back in the summer.  Did they ever publish those results.... anyone?

ComeBackid

[Hawk]

ComeBackid,

I took your post as simply informational and added my informational comments.  I consider neither of our posts a defense or an attack, but simply comments.  

There are tests currently going on, but my point is that to my knowledge they are not funded by Augusta.  They may have thrown in some VEDs free of charge or maybe charged full price.  Either way the gave very little or earned a little from those trials.  Thus my point that Augusta has little if any "research" costs.  

Development cost to mold a modified VED that is a bit different than every other companies VED entails some expense.    

We can ask Angus what his research and development costs were and get a close approximation.  

[Angus]

...We can ask Angus what his research and development costs were and get a close approximation.  

    Oh, um, ahem, let's see, um, 10 minutes reading what the effect of the tube sizes were concerning Peyronies Disease therapy, reading Old Mans posts on VED therapy, 20 minutes finding the correct tube sizes to order, gosh, I figure my R&D oughta be worth a couple grand, anyway!          

    Disclaimer: This statement was made in a coffee-induced morning wake-up stupor and should not in any way, shape or form be taken seriously lol.            


         

[ComeBacKid]

How does it feel to be CEO of Angus Operations International, the proud maker of the AnguPump

I'm still expecting big returns off all that capital I invested for R and D !

ComeBackid

[Angus]

How does it feel to be CEO of Angus Operations International, the proud maker of the AnguPump

I'm still expecting big returns off all that capital I invested for R and D !

ComeBackid

  Hmmm... AnguPump... I like it! Phase 1 Trials to begin in 2035!  

[hopeful]

Hey ComeBackid.. Any success with the pump...

Hopeful,

[

[hopeful]

Angus..

This is Hopeful.. I am trying to find out what success you have had with the pump, and what other ytratments you are doing..

Thanks,

  Welcome JAKE52. There are more of us who have had huge improvement with VED use, including myself. Lots of VED information is condensed into the Newly Diagnosed section in the VED thread.  

[meanmrmustard]

First I'd like to say that I'm sorry if I'm asking questions that have been answered before, but after reading the 'Highlights of VED's and Other Devices'-thread and being amazed by the positive Testimonials of VED-users, i can't help but wonder why VEDs aren't more popular? is it because of their cost? none of the 10 doctors i've been to has told me anything about VEDs. is it the danger of harm and damage due to abuse?

plus, does anyone know a mailorder in europe that has the oston esteem? (or is there another VED that you'd recommed for someone that suffers Peyronies Disease and ED?)

thanks

[Angus]

  Hi Hopeful... I used my self-constructed VED's over a period of about 2 years. I have one with a large tube and one with a small tube and used the therapy that alternates use of these tubes. My curve was reduced from 45 degrees to less than the present 10 degrees. I consider this significant, and personally I consider a curve of 10 degrees almost insignificant when it comes to sexual function as there are men with congenital curves of more than this who have no problem with sexual function. I use the VED's occasionally now as a maintenance program and I believe this helps maintain my present relative straightness and blood flow. The only supplement I used during that time was 2 or 3 L-Argenine capsules per day. I took no other meds or supplements during that time. I now take 1 L-Argenine cap per day for maintenance.
    I would like to add that I believe that VED/Peyronies Disease therapy is a rather long term therapy that should be applied daily for at least one year or much more before marked improvement can be realized. I conclude this from my own experience, but actual hard facts about VED therapy results are sketchy and sparse other than what can be found on this forum. More hard facts are needed; there may be men who saw improvement after shorter time periods and men who had to use it for a longer time period.
   The VED is a mechanical device and I believe this causes hesitation in some men who consider using one. For men who previously have not searched Peyronies Disease information, erection pumps were only seen in sex toy stores or on the internet in boxes with lewd images on the package of men using them as an enlargement device, along with paragraphs describing how much more desireable the man who used this device would be to a prospective partner. The cheap plastic pumps from these places in no way compare to the devices used by men on this forum. The sex toy VED has gone through decades of being the subject of jokes, embarrassment and an item to be hidden to avoid the shame of it's discovery by a partner or household member, and this stigma must be ignored by the prospective user of a medical grade VED.
   I hope the additional rant didn't cloud my answer to your question. In summary, yes, the VED did work for me.  

[Rzz]

Hello Everybody,
As many of you know, I've been around these forums for quite sometime. Due to another writing commitment I've been an infrequent poster on this forum. I'm now ready to start being a regular contributor again. I already know many of you, but look forward to getting to know the ones I don't.

As I stated, I've done quite a bit of research on Peyronies Disease and tons of research on DMSO and the Thacker's Formula. However, one aspect of Peyronies Disease treatment I've done very little research on is the use of the VED. As of recent, many doctors have become very interested in the use of the VED and are starting to prescribe it to their Peyronies Disease patients. This includes some highly respected doctors who are experts in Peyronies Disease. I've decided that I might would like to give this option a try. Possibly in conjunction with DMSO. However, as I stated I know very little of the VED and would really appreciate some advice from this forum. I have read all the past post on the VED, but I'm still a little confused. Here is a brief summary of my situation.  

1) Although I had some curvature at the beginning of my Peyronies Disease, it was not serious enough to prevent intercourse. So curvature is not the big problem.
2) As the years went by with my Peyronies Disease, erectile dysfunction became more and more of a problem. So my main problem is erectile dysfunction. Although I do believe Peyronies Disease is the main source of my dysfunction, I do not believe it is the sole problem. As time went by and embarrassment and anxiety increased, I believe psychology started to play a big part of my erectile dysfunction as well.
3) I've lost roughly a 1 1/2" in length and about 3/4" in circumference.  

Here are some of my questions:

1) I've heard of the different types of VEDs like The Esteem, The Classic, The Soma Correct and others. How do I determine the best for me?
2) Is it best to get a prescription type VED or does it matter?
3) I've been to 6 different urologists over the years. However, I'm not sure my main urologist prescribes or even believes in the use of the VED. We've never discussed it. If he doesn't, is there a list somewhere of urologist who do use the VED for Peyronies Disease treatment?
4) I'm "VERY" concerned that the stretching the VED is supposed to do the scar tissue or plaque; could also cause some tearing to the tissue surrounding the plaque and then latter just create more scar tissue to deal with. I'm I being rational here or just paranoid?

I do have other questions about the VED that I will present later, but I thought to get a better understanding I would just post my questions 2-3 at a time.

Also, I have had some personal emails in my box, but due to my schedule I was not able to get around to answering them and I apologize for that. If anybody would like to ask them again, I assure you I will respond.

Well, that's about it for now. I would greatly appreciate any information or advice. If I can help anybody with questions about Peyronies Disease or the use of DMSO and Thacker's Formula, please do not hesitate to ask.

Rzz

[Steve]

Hi Rzz,

I don't know if I remember you, but welcome back to the fold.

To address some of your questions (in my own limited capacity):
1. There seems to be a general concensus that a multi-sized VED has the best chance of alliviating the curvature/plaque.  By switching back and forth between the different sizes, you change the type/amount of stretch applied to the plaque.
2. If (when) you decide to go with a VED, either go with a prescription unit (VERY expensive), or use some of the plans/suggestions here on the board to build your own.  Don't go with the 'sex toy' variety as they are of low quality and don't hold up to extended use (which the VED therapy does take an extended period of time).
3. Your guess is as good as mine...
4. Yes, over application of vacuum can cause more damage!  It's very important to start slowly to get a feel for how much pumping is needed to get a stretch without tearing.  There's really no way of explaining this, you've got to feel it for your self.  Just remember...if it starts to hurt, you're pumping too much!  Relieve the pressure, and don't pump as much in the future!

Good luck with whatever you end up trying.

Steve

[hopeful]

Hi Angus,

Sorry I missed your answer... That my friend is amazing.. I am at 35-40%.. however, have loss of length and girth... I am 59, what about you- did you have loss of length and girth>- and did you gain it back,,, at 10%,, I would be the happies man in the world!- Also, what brand or strength L-Argeninie did you take?-  Thanks- Hopeful

  Hi Hopeful... I used my self-constructed VED's over a period of about 2 years. I have one with a large tube and one with a small tube and used the therapy that alternates use of these tubes. My curve was reduced from 45 degrees to less than the present 10 degrees.

[Steve]

Angus,

A quick question on your results...you say that you used your VED for about 2 years.  How long before you noticed any results?  I've been using mine for almost a year now, and so far, have seen no change at all.  

Steve

[Old Man]

RZZ:

First, let me say that Steve has given you some very good advice about the right choice for a VED. There are many and varied degrees of models and sizes of VEDs, so as he said, be careful in your choice if you choose to try one. There are several guys on this forum that have made their own with great success: to mention a couple, Dr. Tim and Angus. Both have posted elsewhere on this forum how they made their units, so check out the page on highlights of VEDs as well as the topic dealing with VEDs and other devices.

I have used three different models of the medical quality VEDs: Osbon Classic Manual, Osbon Esteem Manual and lastly the SomaCorrect manual. The Soma Correct unit was taken off the market due to some difficulty with the FDA about its use for Peyronies Disease and the fact that there was a problem with a "pinching effect" while using it. It was replaced by the SomaErect models which eliminated the pinching problem, but it was not approved for Peyronies Disease by FDA. Rather, it is recommended for ED only now. However, it can be used for Peyronies Disease using the protocol that came with the Soma Correct. That regimen of exercises is posted elsewhere on this forum by a link to a trial that is ongoing in Birmingham, AL. It has proved successful for several guys on this forum. (I have the protocol stored on my data base and can furnish it to any and all who might need a copy.)

As Steve pointed out, overpumping is a common problem with VED usage. The best advice is that if there is any pain accompanied with VED use, stop immediately, let any problem if any heal, and start over with an exercise routine using less pressure.

There are several different approaches to an exercise routine, but the three cylinder model VED seems to be the better system. In my case, I started off with the old Osbon Classic manual model, moved on to the Osbon Esteem manual and finally I am currently using the Soma Correct manual model using the updated sizing insert from Augusta Medical. It has worked extremely well in providing me with the necessary correction for my ED problem after prostate surgery and for maintenance of Peyronies Disease symptoms.

The SomaErect model can be used successfuly for both Peyronies Disease and ED. For ED, you simply gain an erection with the VED and use the retainer(s) to maintain the erection long enough for sexual activity. One must experiment with the different sizes of retainers to get the right one, but only takes a little practice to determine which one(s) work best.

Hope the above gives you some insight on VED usage. Feel free to ask any and all questions you have about VED usage. I am sure that there guys on the forum, as well as myself, who have tried the VED and can give you their experience about its use.

Best to you, Old Man

[kbmw]

Hey Old Man,
I see you are still at it. I haven't been here for quite awhile but I trust it is still pretty much the same old thing in Bentville.

I moved and started with a new GP who wanted to know if I wanted a referral to a Urologist? No thank-you.

I hope all is well with you.

[Angus]

Hi Angus,

Sorry I missed your answer... That my friend is amazing.. I am at 35-40%.. however, have loss of length and girth... I am 59, what about you- did you have loss of length and girth>- and did you gain it back,,, at 10%,, I would be the happies man in the world!- Also, what brand or strength L-Argeninie did you take?-  Thanks- Hopeful

  Hi Hopeful... I used my self-constructed VED's over a period of about 2 years. I have one with a large tube and one with a small tube and used the therapy that alternates use of these tubes. My curve was reduced from 45 degrees to less than the present 10 degrees.

   I didn't have significant length loss, except for what appeared to be loss when looking at a curved object (hold index finger out straight, then curl it into a 45 degree "hook"... it appears shorter, but from base to tip measured along it's top or ridge, is not). There was no girth loss except in the middle where the waisting is. The VED didn't fix that completely; there is some indentation still there but is insignificant in my book. The use of the VED does appear to excercise the blood vessels, and subsequent non-VED erections will appear larger, but no larger than you were before Peyronies Disease (I am not suggesting the VED will enlarge a penis beyond what you have naturally... it will not). The L Argenine I take is the least expensive Wal Mart brand. I still use the VED every now and then for maintenance and blood flow exercise. I do not have ED (giving thanks every day for that). If you give the VED a shot, make the commitment of time and use it daily for as long as it takes. I think our penises are a little tougher than we give them credit for   and can't be stretched and re-molded in a few weeks or months.  

[Angus]

Angus,

A quick question on your results...you say that you used your VED for about 2 years.  How long before you noticed any results?  I've been using mine for almost a year now, and so far, have seen no change at all.  

Steve

   Hi Steve... it was over a year before any improvement was seen, and another year tacked onto that before my present state was achieved. This was with daily use with many cycles per use. I don't have contact with any VED users other than those on this board, and we have very few instances of organized documentation on VED use for Peyronies Disease and timelines of how long therapy took to produce visible results. We also don't have a solid data base of how many cycles or repetitions of VED erections men are doing before ending the therapy for that day. Re-shaping a penis is no small order and, in my humble opinion, VED therapy should be applied with a tenacious attitude and a resolve to do the therapy daily no matter how long it takes to see results. Personally I would encourage you to continue the therapy on a daily basis, and assume that you are about to barely complete the first half of the therapy to completion. I would love to soon hear you say that in just over a year you had results, but that may not be the case in your situation. Small scar areas may re-shape in mere months; larger scars may take 2 or more years; at this point no one knows. We are in a manner of speaking the pioneers at fixing Peyronies Disease, along with some very noteworthy urologists. Until we get more data on VED use and results, I can only encourage you to continue the therapy and try not to get discouraged. With low pressure (vacuum) and many cycles daily you certainly won't do any harm, and you may have results soon. I am a believer in the multi-cylinder therapy and that the elongation from the smallest cylinder is important in the therapy. These are just my personal observations and thoughts about my own experience.  

[hopeful]

Thank you- I will definitely look into getting one- with the cylinders.

[tdsc]

To George:  

How can you possibly think that stretching the penis is safe through vacuum pump exercises?  I just don't see the evidence.  One thing that I tried briefly but stopped because I still had inflammation in the penis was a combination of grape seed extract (I used a CVS brand that also had green tea in it, "grape seed plus") and vitamin E.  The penis was red and flushed like there had been good blood flow through it some time after erections and it permanently straightened a probably 10-20 degree curved penis after a few weeks and I didn't use it every day, but most of the time.  I stopped because I thought it was aggravating the area of my injury (I could feel during erections that it was stretching it, but it was a good feeling and not really painful).  Secondly I would not use it for weeks on end.  I would use it for a few days, stop, then start again because it does feel like you've had a lot of erections.  If you have tendonitis anywhere in the body, you don't want to be using it either because it will inflame it and aggravate it.  However, with the grape seed extract and vitamin E, I'm not kidding you the erections were almost doubled in girth and some in length (once stopped the erections returned to normal size), which possibly could be hazardous however if you are engaged in sexual relations due to the tighter tunica.  

[Tim468]

tdsc,

I am not sure why you targetted George for your question 0- there are many of us who not only think that it is safe to stretch the penis with the VED, but in fact do it regularly (to my knowledge, George does not).

If one stretches it to a tension that is approximartely that of a spontaneous erection, or perhaps slightly greater - then how shall it hurt? The obvious answer that worried me was that if things were somehow "bad" (ie inflamed, or damaged) then such stretching might be best. Similar to "rest".

But if we look at stretching in a dfferent way, like stretching a damaged joint (which is not damaged by stretching but by use), then maybe it could make more sense to you. Also, we might cause damage at the junction of the placque and the "normal" Tunica. I have raised such concerns myself.

But in the end, what cinched it for me is this: the Tunica when suffering from Peyronies develops contractile elements that tighten up. This means that an unstretched penis can become worse, IMHO. In fact some of the surgical literature is now advocating the use of the VED following surgery to prevent a reoccurance of contractures/scarring.
I believe that some of the"reoccurance" of Peyronies Disease following surgeries is from the avoidance of erections for a period of time. Those that report better outcomes seem to more often promote early return of erections (through meds or VEDs).

Tim

[tdsc]

I wasn't targeting anyone.  George was saying the VED is legitimate, whereas I'm of a different opinion.  The ved pulls blood into the penis artificially.  How do you know that it's not pulling on things inside that may mess things up?  I saw on a website a doctor who used the thing because he wanted to just experiment with it (he had not injury) just twice on himself, and he said it permanently weakened his erection, and that was a common thing he knew about others.   If the penis is injured a rock hard erection is probably not the best thing.  During periods when the injury was aggravated my nightly erections were not as strong for a few weeks, but they returned to normal after cessation of whatever was aggravating it.
I found the website about the doctor: http://www.herballove.com/article.asp?Art=66

[Liam]

This Dr. Herbal Love condemns the VED then promotes his "PeniSaver" (only $76.00). http://www.herballoveshop.com/product.asp?PID=1045

I would hardly call that a credible site.

[Hawk]

tdsc,

I am glad you mentioned this site because it explains a lot.  Prior to this I was struggling to resolve the basis for some of your statements.   No serious student of personal health, Peyronies Disease, nutrition, or physiology, could take this site seriously.  I recommend that you educate yourself on sites with some degree of professionalism or on sites that are not trying to make money off of confusing you about the issues.  In fact, while I will leave the link information intact, I am disabling the link so as not to promote this site in Google rankings.

[Tim468]

Darn - I tried to access that "Credible" site and it was blocked by my work-place filter as an "adult site".

::sigh::

Tim

[Hawk]

Tim,

I receive some reassurance that hospital personnel are not using information from that site.  

[tdsc]

Hawk-

The basis of my statements are in personal experience and other sites.  My memory leads me to believe that I accessed a legitimate site in the past where a doctor used the ved on himself, and he had knowledge of others who had a weakened erection from the device.  I was searching for it yesterday and found that one, and didn't really read about the bogus penissaver until after and saw how ridiculous it was, although I was a bit hasty in posting it I'll admit.  But the ved  has dangers just based in common sense, as I'm sure you're aware and have posted.  Grape seed and vitamin E did produce a much larger erection.  My  idea on Vitamin E is that it makes skin and such more elastic, while the grape seed has some effect of increasing pressure or blood flo

[Old Man]

tdsc:

Sorry that you do not accept the VED therapy as a viable one for Peyronies Disease. My only suggestion to you about using the VED is to try one before deciding finally that it has no value in Peyronies Disease therapy.

I have worked with many guys in prostate cancer, ED and Peyronies Disease as a counselor with the American Cancer Society. My experience also includes assisting a local uro group by counseling their patients on a need to know basis in using the VED. I have yet to find more than one or two guys that did not benefit from using the VED.

The VED can and will help with correcting Peyronies Disease cases in most cases as my experience has shown. In my case, it corrected a 45 degree downward and a 45 degree curve to the right side. It took about 6 months of daily therapy sessions to eliminate the problem. I use the VED now for erections due to impotence brought on by a non nerve sparing prostatectomy which left me impotent. I also use it on a systematic basis for maintence of the Peyronies Disease problem.

So, my bottom line to you is this, don't knock its use without ever having tried it. If used with common sense and in moderation, there should be no way that using a VED can cause further problems. For those few cases where it does cause pain or other problems, one should not use it.

Old Man

[Hawk]

Tdsk,

I do not doubt that you can find a website where someone claiming to be a doctor or even a real doctor gave an account or an opinion on the dangers of a VED.  This is the internet! There are millions of new pages every day.  I can find sites that claim penis enlargement from space aliens and every medical absurdity imagined in any mind.  Saying, "I saw a website that said......" is not evidence of anything in the least. Surely you must know that Tdsk.

We can produce many users right here that say the contrary.  We can also produce well known, well respected experts in the field of urology and sexual medicine associated with competent medical centers that recommend its use.  VED's are FDA approved for ED.  Can you match any one o these credentials for your claim?  While these none of these prove they work, individually and collectively they constitute significant evidence.  If you can show comparable evidence I am sure it would be received with interest.

As far as the your penis enlargement issue, I refer you to my other post

I also refer you to a page worth reading http://www.peyroniessociety.org/evaluating.htm

Regards

Hawk

[George999]

I just want to get in my own thoughts here regarding tdsk's VED arguments.  I really think that it is not surprising that certain doctors might be very much opposed to the concept of the VED.  As many of you are aware, I, myself, have stated that no amount of inflammation is tolerable.  And I suppose that one could make the point that using a VED brings on a risk of aggravating inflammation related to Peyronies.  But modern medicine is simply moving very much against that concept.  It very much reflects an 'old school' approach to inflammation.  Years ago, for example, people were concerned about 'over exercise' and about what bad things might happen due to the muscle pain that follows strenuous exertion.  But now days people are encouraged to exercise to the 'point of pain and ache'.  We now know that those who suffer from some degree of pain and body ache actually do better health wise than those that are over protective of their body.  In the same way, years ago doctors prescribed long periods of bedrest after surgery in order for proper healing to take place.  Now days we know that the sooner we get the patient up and active, regardless of the pain it causes, the less complications they will have, including those related to scarring.  And the latest findings are that this extends even to back injuries, one of the final frontiers of medicine.  Leading back doctors have found that those with back injuries who pursue a reasonable exercise regimen fare as well, if not better than those who have surgery, and many back issues involve tenacious scarring in the spinal area.  This includes more than just muscular issues - like ruptured disks for example.  So, in the end, we are finding that pain itself and exercise of the injured/diseased tissue does not necessarily correlate to increased inflammation and in fact might well correlate in many cases with reduced inflammation and more effective healing.  I also want to directly respond to tdsk's point about the VED having the potential to 'permanently weaken' one's erections.  First of all, that is really just a speculation, I don't think there is any legitimate research out there that demonstrates that to be true.  And if you are going to reference an 'expert opinion', you need to be sure to sight a leading urologist, not some doc who is simply relying on 'old school' 'common wisdom' (and there are a lot of those well intentioned old souls out there).  Secondly, if one is suffering from Peyronies to the point that it is debilitating, I don't think that maintaining the optimal strength of their unassisted erections is at the top of the list in terms of concern.  Its sort of like denying the terminal patient pain medication in fear that they might become 'addicted'.  So you are indeed going to have to come up with more evidence than you now have to truly demonstrate that the VED is not 'legitimate'.  - George

[Old Man]

George999:

Thanks for a great post. You have stated one of the most profound statements about pain, exercise and the results obtained by keeping up an exercise routine.

I have had numerous surgeries in my life and for all of them, exercise came almost immediately after surgery or at least the next day. Had a total hip replacement done in 2002 one day and the next day, the therapist had me up and walking! Heart surgery in 2004 and the next day, I was sitting up and the second day was walking for exercise.

So, George, bottom line is that exercise has been demonstrated in my life to the very fullest that exercise does in fact relate to better healing.

Have no idea where tdsc comes up with the idea that stretching the plaque/scar tissue in one's penis by the VED can cause further inflammation and/or further damage. (Maybe he can publish the source of his documented evidence to clear up any further confusion, at least on my part.)This also has been demonstrated with my Peyronies Disease and many others that I have worked with in the past.

Regards, Old Man

[tdsc]

I just read on a Mayo health site that the ved can cause loss of sensation although only a few people report major problems with this.  In addition it lists bruising as a possible side effect.  I have no idea what a ved would do to the scar or whatnot.  However, if it's active inflammation, I presume it would have a deleterious effect.  It's not a good idea to use something that can cause side effects if it's not a serious problem.

[George999]

Actually, this thread is supposed to be for discussion of oral treatments.  And then a new member came along and mentioned the VED in his post and I answered and the rest is history.  So, poor Hawk is going to end up having to relocate this whole string of offtopic posts to the VED section when we have beat the donkey thoroughly enough.

So tdsc, I would agree that the VED is not something the should be used for recreation.  But even Vitamin E can have side effects if used inappropriately.  Part of what concerns some physicians, which is understandable, is that they are afraid that if they approve of the VED for use with Peyronies, a few people will then somehow take that as an endorsement of penis 'enhancement'.  But the fact is many people right here on this forum have been using this device for some time and I have yet to see where any of them are noting significant side effects.  And regardless of your speculation on inflammation, I suggest that you stop going on 'presumptions' and start basing your decisions and your recommendations on legitimate research.  Because, as you yourself have so bluntly stated, you have 'no idea' as to what the issues are with the VED.  Quite honestly, I could just as easily speculate that the VED can assist in forcing areas of the tunica to 'relax' much as extending a limb can cause a cramped muscle to relax.  I could also very easily speculate that inflammed tunica tissue tends to 'want to' contract, and if left in that state for a prolonged period, can end up transforming itself gradually into scar tissue (a process known as atrophication).  I would further suggest that I could probably find more legitimate research to back up my speculation than you can to back up yours.  I know that you are probably not going to listen to me or to anybody else around here (including people with many more years of experience with this disease than either you or I).  But I do feel that your posts deserve a rational response as there are people listening in on this discussion who may well make crucial decisions based on the information or misinformation that they find posted here.  As Tim pointed out, I personally do not use the VED nor at this point do I intend to.  But I have to speak up for sound medicine.  And if you spend long on the Mayo clinic site you will find warnings on everything one can imagine including a number of popular prescription meds.  That's their job.  I can tell you very honestly that I have found information on the Mayo site that is patently incorrect or very outdated.  That is the way it is with large sites like theirs who simply don't have the time and resources to research every substance and device thoroughly.  No one here is arguing for anyone to use the VED casually.  In fact a number of people here are using their VED with the supervision and assistance of their urologists who I would argue have significantly more expertise on the subject than you have.  And for the benefit of those watching on, I will say to you like I do to everyone else:  Discuss VED use with your physician.  The bottom line is, many people around here have found it helpful and without significant negative side effects.  And unlike most other sites, this site is not trying to sell you something and part you from your money.  And unlike the Mayo clinic site, this site focuses on Peyronies and is not trying to be all things to all people.

- George

[Hawk]

Guys,

I first thank George for drawing my attention to the fact that about twenty posts were posted under the wrong topic.  I actually contributed to that mess.  There were so many I thought it was the VED topic.

Moving those posts was not fun.  Additionally what really made it annoying was that I had to change the subject lines on most of them.  If I was not so strapped, I would not sound off so quickly, but I really need the help guys.

Please watch the topics and make sure you always edit the subject lines of your posts to reflect specifically what you are actually posting about.

Thanks

Hawk

[George999]

I just want to add a few more thoughts on this one before I leave the issue to rest.  Roadblock recently posted an excellent link under the Causes of Peyronies topic to a study that points out that " ... Peyronies Disease is associated with other fibrotic conditions such as Dupuytren's contracture (palmar fascia; 10-20% incidence or more in Peyronies Disease) and Ledeshore's disease (plantar fascia)."  I find this really fascinating for several reasons.  The link to Dupuytren's contracture is widely acknowledged, but the link to Ledeshore's disease is hardly ever noted.   The term "Ledeshore's disease" is, as far as I understand, a very rarely used label for what is commonly referred to as "plantar fasciitis". This is an inflammation of a major tendon of the foot that progress in a remarkably similar fashion as Peyronies.  I developed both Peyronies and plantar fasciitis at around the same point in time.  When I went to the podiatrist, his prognosis was that I was probably still in the initial inflammatory stage which is the easiest to cure.  Next, the disease would move into the 'chronic phase' and then later into a 'calcification' phase if I didn't get it taken care of.  All of this would be eerily similar to what I would later hear regarding Peyronies.  Research has indicated that both diseases are powered by TGF-beta.  Both diseases are associated with beta blockers which I happened to be taking at the time.  The plantar fasciitis which initially affected only one foot went on to affect the other one as well and the disease moved into the chronic stage and I was unable to control it with the initial treatment advised.  Later when I discovered the possible link with beta blockers I quit them and the initial treatment then worked and I am now completely free of that disease even though I had already passed well into the chronic phase.  These diseases are so similar, one has to question why plantar fasciitis seems to be much more responsive to therapy than palmar fasciitis (even after it reaches the calcification stage!), and Peyronies seems to be the least responsive of the three.  It is this question that set me to thinking.  The therapy that I was able to successfully use with the plantar fasciitis was 1) ice for 15 to 20 minute intervals.  That is easy to use on your foot, I'm not so sure about other parts of one's anatomy.  2) stretches, yes get up in the morning and carefully stretch the affected area and don't worry about inflaming it by doing so.  Sounds almost like the VED at this point.  3) The last was exercise.  I was basically told to walk as much as possible no matter how badly it hurt.  And what I discovered that as I walked, the pain went away.  So we all know (I guess) that ice tends to reduce inflammation, but what about stretching and exercise?  This combination cured my plantar fasciitis.  I really wonder if the process of gently forcing as much mobility on the affected tissue doesn't somehow inhibit localized expression of TGF-beta in addition to inducing relaxation.  Wouldn't that be interesting?  So I guess my point is that the healthy tunica is always in a dynamic, ever changing state.  A static tunica is a sick tunica.  If this is the case, it would make sense that we should do whatever possible to carefully induce mobility on the tunica in order to possibly even stifle TGF-beta via an as yet undiscovered vector.  One way of doing this would certainly be with a VED.  Could the difficulty in controlling Peyronies be associated with the difficulty of sufficiently stimulating the tunica?  That is the question that is bumping around in my head right now.

- George

[Old Man]

George:

Thanks for your most interesting prior post. You have made my day! This is what I been trying to get across with posts ever since I have been a member of this forum. The daily stretching of my penis with the VED, I am firmly convinced, did the trick (no pun intended) for "curing" my episode of Peyronies Disease.

Continuing maintenance VED therapy has kept my Peyronies Disease in check so far. There is only one small dented area that can be seen, more like felt, when erect. Flaccid, there is no visible evidence of Peyronies Disease in any shape, form or fashion. My therapy sessions for treating my Peyronies Disease only included the VED along with varying amounts of vitamin E. This regimen was started only after all other trials of many and varied treatments failed.

So, many thanks, and a vote of commendation for your continued support of the VED therapy. Just hope that more guys will enlist its use in their therapy. It has proven to be of value for at least some of us.

Old Man

[tdsc]

George-

I have most recently noticed that the area of the injury around the head, has loosened up.  There was never a plaque, but it has been tight for the past few months.  I have been doing no therapy and have even recently subdued all daily erections because of the pain, and the pain  has since gone down.  It is possible that the erections at night stretched the area, but to be honest it has loosened up and I haven't used the VED.  It's been about 10 months since the date of the injury.  

[George999]

tdsc, I think you are misunderstanding me.  I am not saying at all that everyone with Peyronies must use a VED or even should use a VED.  As has been pointed out before, I myself do not use one.  If you are getting results, then you are obviously doing the right things.  Each person's case is different and requires a unique approach.  In some recorded cases, people have gotten over their Peyronies with no treatment at all.  But please don't try to discredit the validity of VED use for Peyronies.  There is just too much evidence for its credibility.  Remember that devices like this tend to have a bad image simply because they are used for other purposes.  Don't let that cloud your objectivity.

- George

[Hawk]

I thought I posted this once here.  In fact I was sure I had but i cannot find it so I post it again.  It is a variation of one of my first posts on a Peyronies Disease forum.  For the 10th time I will encourage all to study the scar reduction papers in the Resource Library section of our forum.

First I want to make it clear I am not recommending any plan of action. At times, I can barely figure out what I am doing next with my own dilemma. I also want to remind everyone of the old adage, A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.  I think we have often seen that principle on exhibit.

With that in mind I want to present a few facts that MAY be far removed from our situation, and then  extrapolate those facts to Peyronies Disease.

One of the major management problems of burn victims is contracture of scar tissue. Positional splints, elastic bandages, and stretching techniques are employed to literally prevent the drawing effects of scar tissue. These procedures are relatively successful. Researchers seem unsure as to whether at a cellular level, this actually stretches existing cells, making them thinner and weaker, or proliferate new cells, but one way or the other; the scar tissue area does increase. Stretching is successful.

With Peyronies Disease, our scarred area is not under tension most of the time. If you have ED, it is seldom under any tension. The plaque may be free to draw unchecked. It seems to form or draw to the reduced flaccid size and we know the results when we get an erection. Why wouldn't reasonable regular stretching prevent contracture of the tissue even in the early acute phase of the disease? Burn patients while healing, must stretch every morning because tension has been off the area all night. It is not a morning stretch like most people do, but in depth, involved, slow, restoration stretching to bring them to where they were the day before and even beyond that to reach new flexibility.  This is not pain-free stretching

There are probably more problems with this correlation than I can imagine, but here are a few I recognize. Burn victims are stretching scarred skin, which may not correlate to scarred tunica albuginea. If you are depending on VED engorgement to do the stretching, the stretching force needed might damage corpora cavernosal tissue around the scar which is the weakest link. The fact that the Peyronies Disease scar tissue is usually very relaxed, might offset any gains that a practical amount of stretching could accomplish. Maybe a tension device could be used to keep a more constant stretch but then if the delicate surrounding tunica albuginea tissue is truely the weakest link in the stretch, it might tear before the scar tissue ever stretched, resulting in micro tears, bleeding, and more scar tissue.

Let's face it, Peyronies Disease plaque (scar tissue) is NOT skin scar tissue. For one thing, Peyronies Disease plaque calcifies so the comparison is no doubt flawed. Nevertheless, there is some correlation.  That coupled with the positive results many see with the VED and the promise of tension devices means that regular, controlled, conservative, stretching is still on the table as a treatment option.  in fact it is clearly gaining favor by respected medical specialists.

[Tim468]

A brief note about scarring.

When I was younger a chisel feel onto my hand while I was working and cut into the skin over my left pinkie finger. My Dad and I head into the ER and a few hours later I left with a nice bandage.

That wound healed into a normal enough looking scar, but over time it turned into a keloid scar. This pile of darker looking and heaped up skin was resected out with a small incision, and the skin edges were approximated well enough, and sutured up.

Today, about 38 years later, that scar is unchanged. I have another scar on my arm that was axcquired on a barb wire fence - it used to be purple and hard and now it is pale white, flat and barely palpable.

To me, there is a difference between healing back up so that there is NO EVIDENCE of a prior wound (seems unlikely to ever happen) and healing up so that the skin is functional.

Over these areas, some hair grows. I sweat there. It is compliant and flexible, and unlike a contracted burn scar has NO effect on my skins function.

So, I would describe the evolution of these wounds as having completely healed without any sequellae. However, if I healed (even very well) on my face, and the scar runs across my lip such that  the "ermillion border" (the edge of the normal skin with the pnk skin of the lip) is not brought together perfectly - that scar will ALWAYS show up as abnormal.

So there are limits to healing. Skin will not migrate back "into place" or something like that. But normal wound healing leaves you with a knitted together area of skin and it may not LOOK normal but it FUNCTIONS normally. I would call that a perfectly healed wound. If it is your face and you are a famous movie star then a definition of "perfect" might be different.

So, I think it is not logical or right to imagine that VISIBLE evidence of a scar dissolving should be a standard of wound healing to strive for. Rather, a well knitted together line, without lumpiness, contraction, dimpling etc is a sign of good healing to me. I look at lung xrays after bad infections with their persistent scars and explain to people (showing them my arm and finger) that they may always show signs of the infection, but that does not mean that their lungs will not heal back to perfect FUNCTION.

And so I think it ought to be in Peyronies Disease. I think it is reasonable to hope for diminished inflammation, reduced contractures, healing and relaxing scars back towards a more normal function of the Tunica Albuginea. It may not be that we could expect a dimple to completely go away or that a bend dissolve so that no record of the problem remained. But I would accept "good enough" any day of the week, as would almost every guy here.

Tim

[Rzz]

This question is for Old Man or actually anybody who has some amount of time using a VED. I actually have 3 questions.

1) This regards an earlier question I had concerning whether the VED can help somebody whose main problem from Peyronies Disease is partial impotence. Old Man answered the question, "Yes." However, I think he may have misunderstood what I meant. It was my fault, I did not clearly explain my question. I already knew that one could use the VED to pump up the penis; then use a restrictor type ring to hold in the blood and therefore maintain an erection. What I meant is can the VED help without a retrictor ring. Say if on a 1-10 scale, a man rates his erection quality at about 4-5. If this same man uses a VED correctly, safely and for a long enough time, can he improve his erection qaulity to better than a 4-5?

2) The vast majority of those I read on the forum who use or have used the VED say they use a kind of method of ( pump up/hold a few minutes/release --- pump up/hold a few minutes/release and repeat and repeat). I was reading on another Peyronies Disease web site and on this site Dr. Levine, who is highly respected and regarded in the treatment of Peyronies Disease, has himself started having many of his patients use a VED in conjunction with Verapamil Injections. However, he stated that he prefers and thinks it's better and instructs his patients to use a ( Pump up and hold for 20-30 minutes and release) then repeat this 2-3 times a day. Anotherwords he does not reccomend the pump-release/ pump-release type method. What does everybody think about Levine's method?

3) **** Before you read the 3rd question, please don't tell me about how an implant should be the last resort. I've had Peyronies Disease for quite a while and have researched the heck out of the subject and I know an implant is a last resort. Besides, I'm not considering one at this time. However, I will say that down the road a few years. I'm not ruling it out. They've made great improvements on the procedure, even in the last few years. As long as one has a surgeon who is HIGHLY skilled with implants and experience in putting these implants in patients who also have Peyronies Disease.

QUESTION #3:   I've read on forums and in medical papers, that an individual who is considering a penile implant can take his flaccid penis and stretch it out as far as he comfortably can and that is about the length he can expect his erections to be after implant. Now I have read many times about men using the VED defintely seeing increases in their flaccid penis. As a matter of fact, this is the most consistent thing I read from people using the VED. I've read were they saw other positive results too, but the increase in the flaccid state is something I've seen quite often. So my question is: If a man was seriously considering an implant and was concerned about the length of his post-op implant erection length, would it be a good thing if he regurally used a VED for about a year or so before his implant surgery? Anotherwords, if he increased his pre-op flaccid length with a VED: would he then not also increase his post-op implant erection length?