VED's - Vacuum Erection Devices

[Angus]

  Zig: Yup, safety is the deal. Anything extra tried with a VED has got to have caution flags all over it. The conservative way to approach its use would be to use a standard VED and get the protocol and method from Old Man. Trust me, it works. Some of us will keep brainstorming and coming up with ideas on VED's, though. But I'll never compromise safety for innovation.
  BLBC: Keep brainstorming and fire up the torch and see what you come up with! I'm anxious to see a prototype. We'll knock this US disease one way or another. There's no rule that says VED's must be made in a clean room lab by stern faced, white coated technicians then shipped in plain, brown wrappers. They might not ever be used as props or set pieces on the Today show  , but they can have a fun element worked into the design.  

[Old Man]

Angus:

Could not have said it better myself. Keep up the research on a new design for a VED. I have several ideas, but my old mind just keep wandering off the subject (due to age, I reckon).

Regards, Old Man

[Tim468]

OK - here is an idea. Say that you have a Y-connector of plastic, and you attach to one end a balloon, and to the other fork a thick rubber hot water bag. Then you blow into the mouthpiece. Guess which bag blows up. Right - the balloon blows up, and not the hotwater bottle, because the balloon has a higher "Compliance".

For lungs (which is what I know) Compliance is defined as the Volume change per unit of Pressure change across an elastic structure.

So - if we have a scarred bit of tissue, next to a more elastic bit of tissue, and we apply a pressure to them (now, unlike the lungs, we are applying a vacuum to the surface, and not inflating from within. We can do that to the penis though, with an erection I guess. But whether we are pushing the wall of the penis out with engorged blood, or pulling it out with a vacuum applied, there will still be a difference in compliance locally to the vacuum.

Bear with me here... if we are talking about deviation, and we use a smallish diameter tube, I think it works because the penis has to straighten to fit in the straight tube (makes sense). Thus, if there is a short side (the placque side), then it has a longitudinal force applied to it that tugs at the contracted scar tissue.

But a dent - not so sure. In my mind, when a penis is not snug in a tube (IOW, a "too-tight" tube), then the dent does not have a linear force applied in a longitudinal direction (ie from the base towards the tip). Ratherm, it has a force directed outwards.

Thus, if we have a dent, and the tissue there is scarred, and the adjacent tissue is not scarred, then the side of the penis wall looks schematically like this (time for ASCI art):

----------===========---------   (the thicker part is the scarred part)

And when we apply a force, the more compliant parts are the ones that bulge out. (not sure I can draw tat one!!)


 /------\                       /-------\
/            \===========/             \

In my mind, the forces (equal throughout) have an unequal effect on the scarred tissue. The little "mounds" in my crude art above, represent the normal tissue bulging towards the vacuum, whereas the scarred tissue (stiffer and less compliant) does not get stretched as much.

So I thought of a way to deal with this. One could fashion a fine mesh sleeve that was fairly stiff (IOW, will keep its tubular shape without deforming), and place it over the penis. It would be molded to the size of the swollen hard penis, and no larger. This could fit inside a standard larger sized VED. As the penis swells with the vaccum pressure applied to it, the walls of the penis would swell out to meet the wall of the mesh - except for the dent. Then, as higher vacuum pressures are applied, the increased forces to the "normal" tissue cannot lead to any further expansion, whereas the dent would continue to be able to swell. Thus, a differential force might actually be applied to the dent compared to the normal penis. One could stick to "safe" pressures of no more than -200 mm mercury (Hg).

Hmmm - I have a small dent. I could make one with some of the meshes used in labs for drying gels out (very fine) and test it.

Thoughts on this idea?

Tim

[Steve]

Tim,

Interesting idea, and it may have some merit.  One thing that bothers me about a mesh (although a fine enough mesh may not have this problem) is that the skin can be forced 'through' the mesh with sufficient pressure.  Just press your hand against a screen door for a while and then look at it.  There will be protrusions where the skin bulges out between the wires.  To my thinking, if the screen isn't fine enough, the skin could protrude and, if the vacuum's too great, cause localized bleeding.  If the mesh you're considering is as fine as I think it is, this may not be a problem but I'd still be very cautious.

That said, I'd be most interested in any experimental results you may have.

Steve

[Angus]

  Tim, I think I know of the lab mesh you mention. The closest thing readers might relate to in comparison would be the ultra-fine bronze mesh found in washable coffee filters that are designed to replace paper filters. This mesh is ultra fine with openings sized in microns. No way skin would suffer on this material. Keep going on this. I'm with you on the longitudinal forces and expansion. Excellent ascii art, by the way!  

[Rico]

Tim and members,

I believe the reason this won't work is that the 26 week protocol slowly remoulds the plaque/scar tissue.

By restraining the rest of the penis, you are putting stress on the weakest link, the outside of the scar tissue. The dent isn't the problem, it is the bilateral scar that it causing this dent or hour glass. It won't pop out and stay, at best it would put more pressure on a concentrated area, the outside of the scar tissue and most likely cause more damage.

From what I taken from reading the 26 week protocol along with three cylinders, the small cylinder used for the first weeks, conditions the penis shaft to stretching, the scar tissue starts to respond and starts having memory, in the later weeks as you alternate from the different size cylinders you start also to stretched the bilaterally, when you stretch it out first in the long way it becomes thiner, so when you stretch bilateral it moves easier also, like working a piece of taffy or dough or something you can imagine....a very slow method is the key, so you don't tear it and give it time to realign itself into more normal tissue. Strecth long, stretch wide, move back and forth like a massage, needing the plaque in a control way, once it gets use to it it will expand in both directions and the dent will fill in due to the elasticity of the scar tissue...as the plaque/scar becomes more thin, or strecth the less pressure it will put on the outside of the scar, and this tissue on the edge will also form a stronger bond, it will have memory, memory takes time and patience, rushing this will only cause more damage...IMHO....

I love the thinking on here, and I thought the same thing when I first got this peyronies, I think many of your post Tim have me get a handle on what I have, you are a huge asset to the form, I remember you talking about the bilateral scar and how the tissue is made up, the cross linking ect.....The three cylinder approach seems to hit all the bases for girth and length to me, the time makes sense also.....the vaccumtheary.org protocol I read really made sense to me as far as rehabilitating scar tissue...a slow and constant process with a change up, giving the certain areas of the plaque to rest and outside edges, but keeping it warm also and moving some, then back to it and then ending the protocol with the largest tube to get full size back....just my humble opinion...take care and God Bless...

Rico

[BLBC]

Tim, I think it's an excellent idea and makes sense to me. That in it's self should frighten all of you...

Rico, attempt to think of this as an after molding experience. As in: When you have completed the 26 week protocol (and who's to say that this won't take 22 or 30 weeks or more or less!) that one could not target a tougher area.

Provided there is no pain involved (I can only visualize having a penis) with said mesh and confining your penis within a predetermined area, I can see this working.

[Rico]

The area you are trying to POP OUT has nothing to do with the area, it is the molding of the plaque that lets this fill out...the plaque is re molded from one side to the other, back and forth with this protocol, the reason IMHO that the FDA doesn't approve VED for peyronies is because when someone use the VED with only one cylinder it put to much pressure on him to soon, the weakest link being the plaque, over pull on it, especially on the tissue next to it, especially where it is thickest. Now using a small cylinder it will only let it expand to a certain level, plus less pressure in the vacuum, you start to condition it, then go to a large cylinder, and back and forth, some of this is for rest, IMHO it will go back to original in the early stages and start to get use to the stretch and REMOLD it self to the specific regimen. And as I said in my early post, now that you have stretch or warmed up the scar tissue to this program, you can start moving to the bilateral, and then back......also the natural shape of the cylinder to look like are unit makes sense also, it will forum in this way, straight and the longer one gets, regain loss length, this will also contribute to gain in girth do to the fact the plaque has become more supple and will start to expand bilateral and re condition....

Take care and God Bless...

Rico

[zigwyth]

I usually try to stay neutral when both sides have very good points. We are simply examining all angles of this possibility. I like Tim's/Angus' thoughts on this and can appreciate all valid concerns of adding to the trauma of said existing location(s). I wonder if Dr. Levine or any other Peyronies Disease specialized Uro's who promote VED's, might have a thought or theory on this idea? Anyone having an appt. soon that would be willing to convey these thoughts?
Zig The Twig with an Hourglass that has caused me to lose 2 Freakin inches!!!

[Tim468]

Dear Rico,

I wasn't really able to follow your logic in your post. But I think what you are saying may be incorrect. No one knows what the "right" way to use a VED is, or what way works "best", much less what the mechanisms of healing are. BUT, I do have a theory about it.

I think that the smaller diameter tube allows the bent penis to be sort of forced straight, in a way that a larger diameter tube does not allow. A larger tube might simply apply a force to the surface of the penis such that it expands, but does not get straighter. Time for more art!

wall of (big) tube ____________________________________
                                               __
                                              /    \
                                            /      |
                      --------------/        /
   (very bent penis!)                      /
                                               /
                       -----------------
wall of tube____________________________________________


You can see how the tube would not really do any longitudinal pulling, whereas if the penis was in a narrower tube, it cannot bend:

___________________________________________
-------------------------------
                                           \    Penis is now "forced straight"
                                           /
-------------------------------
__________________________________________


This model of a narrow tube makes sense, but it still fails to address dents well. I think it is significant that we have heard more about men resolving bends than dents using a VED.

The other issue that I think might underlie failures with the VED, or even worsening (I have read literature linking the development of Peyronies Disease to using a VED), is that the forces might be distributed to normal tissue, and not to the scar. Thus, if I apply a stretch to a bit of tissue, it may be that the normal tissue (which is more compliant) will stretch more easily than the scar will. Moreover, it may add forces that cause microtrauma at the interface of the scar and the normal tunica.

So we can speculate all we want, but we are still just guessing, IMHO.

I agree that a mesh would have to be ultrafine, and not chicken wire!. I started imnagining a tube with a side vent for a second vacuum attached to the side, but I imagined that if one could do that somehow, it might be too great a vacuum on one small area, and even suck the penile tissue into it too hard. IOW, we cannot use the "Crevice tool" attachment from our vacuum cleaner and simply apply it to a small portion of our penis!!! Wrong!

I doubt that any uro knows how a VED works. The best one can come up with imo is that tissue that is contracting will contract less if regularly stretched. I am glad to see that more urologists are incorporating the use of the VED in post-op recovery, instead of saying to avoid erections for 6 weeks!! No wonder so may surgeries are accompanied by penile shortening. Here is a reference that uses the VED post op, and does not show that outcome (shows improvement):

TIM

LENGTHENING SHORTENED PENIS CAUSED BY PEYRONIE'S DISEASE USING CIRCULAR VENOUS GRAFTING AND DAILY STRETCHING WITH A VACUUM ERECTION DEVICE  LUE, TOM F.; EL-SAKKA, AHMED I.



ps, here is what Dr. Levine had to say on mechanisms 2.5 years ago - aninclomplete answer IMHO.

"Dr Levine answers:

The use of vacuum therapy has been considered a treatment option for some years without documented evidence of benefits. Several non-published reports from physicians and patients have suggested that they have seen improvements with chronic use of a vacuum device. The suggested mechanism is that stretching the penile tissue on a regular basis encourages the remodeling of the tunica albuginea and this straightens the penis. Years ago the Russians used the principle of stretching bones with a surgically placed device and that this in turn results in bone growth to lengthen shortened limbs. The problem is being able to provide prolonged pressure to the penis that such a change could occur. The recommended approach that I have used with patients (without any clear evidence of benefits as of yet) is to apply the vacuum once to twice per day in a progressive fashion until they could tolerate leaving the device in place for thirty minutes. Using a pulse of vacuum for short term (i.e. 5 minutes) may not be beneficial and may potentially cause injury. Leaving the device on for any longer than thirty minutes is dangerous as it can cause a low oxygen state, which may cause vascular and internal damage. Studies that I conducted in the past using a vacuum device revealed that the apparent straightening of the penis with the vacuum on is due to the expansion of tissues deep to the skin, but superficial to the tunica albuginea. As a result of having girth enhancement around the scar tissue within the tunica, a masking effect of the deformity occurs which results in what appears to be a more full and straight penis. My opinion is that this straightening is not real and yet a multi-centered study is being developed to test the benefits of chronic use of vacuum therapy to straighten the penis."



OMG... I just googled "Peyronies" and "Erecaid" to find this link, and found "Posts by Tim468" - with a link to THIS thread - before I found the link I wanted. Gee - is it time to cut back on my posting here!?

[Rico]

Tim,

The principal behind the small tube is two fold as I see it. First of all it allows one to control the amount of torque he is putting on his unit, controlled st recthing and second to mold it to it original form.

I have to disregard any information from a study on VED from the past, it doesn't hold water in my book. First of all they were using a standard VED and just going to town with it.

The three cylinder is the key to the remolding, and the smaller tube limits your vacuum and stretching, if you try to mold anything to quickly it will tear, but by pulling in one direction, then rest, and going in the other direction, which the large tube will do, you will have the results of molding your penis back to a natural state.... in the vacuum therapy link on the 26 week protocol they address the hour glass and why this works for it also......

I would add that the wire mesh seems to go against the natural function of ones penis, and the three cylinder is more in line with bringing it back to a natural state with time and patience...

I would like to add that the VED was used for longer periods before, as in traction, I don't believe in this type of straighting, but the method of short bursts, and repeated ten times make much more sense, less stress to the tissue, it is actually conditioning the area for the later stages also.....once the large tube is added to the protocol, or I should say medium tube the penis will be able to expand more in girth also, slowly, then you go back to the small, keep it working but give it some rest and back and forth back and forth...till you can reach the largest tube and then the regular maintenance as needed.....

Rico

[Rico]

I read this from Chris Spivey who works with peyronies, it is on the vacuum Therapy.org

4-11-06 Chris Spivey advises:

I think the key to using the VED is to use it every day, and to educate the patient that they are remodeling their scar tissue. The more they use it correctly-smaller tube to promote length and stretch the longitudinal scar tissue-and alternating with the larger tube to promote girth and diminish the hourglass deformity and narrowing from the circular fibers or the tunica......Most patients will do this if you promote a simple method....

It takes almost two months before one goes to the large cylinder....

This article says that Dr. Levine will be coming out with a new protocol that is different from Spivey....

Spivey claims to have treated successfully over 1000 patients with the three cylinder therapy.....

I have sent emails to there site with no reply??

I don't which company they get there VED from. I asked the rep of Soma Correct about them and he said he knew of the site and that was all....

ComeBackid put this site into one of his post.....that is how I found it, after reading it, it made sense to me from a scar remodeling stance....Maybe Levine is going to come out with mesh/hand blown glass/muti value unit....I doubt it though, he I think is going to try to make a buck off the traction devise and some how add it to the program.....

Rico

[Barry]

Greetings,
I would have to say IMHO that Rico has pretty much nailed it on the head. Way to go my friend. It is however as Tim said common logic that a VED may cause Peyronies Disease in those case where the VED is being used by a man who has ED and is using a constriction ring. it is also common knowledge that if a VED is used by a Peyronies Disease patient there is a chance that the device could exacerbate his condition.

Tim has made a few comments that I would like to address:

1."But I think what you are saying may be incorrect. No one knows what the "right" way to use a VED is, or what way works "best", much less what the mechanisms of healing are. BUT, I do have a theory about it."

I respect your theory but, that is exactly what it is "Theory" which does not confirm any correctness. There are many theories published and stated. Many doctor, etc. theorize that what Rico has stated is the proper use of the VED who can then report what is a more exacting procedure? I have been on every Peyronies Disease forum in existence for about 8 years and in doing so I have read what Peyronies Disease patients have reported on these forums. As a result of years of reading I have seen "practical application" of the VED and I will humbly put what I have read for many years against any hypothesis.

2."I think that the smaller diameter tube allows the bent penis to be sort of forced straight, in a way that a larger diameter tube does not allow. A larger tube might simply apply a force to the surface of the penis such that it expands, but does not get straighter."

Again Tim, years of reading and research have lead me to a conclusion that is contrary to yours. Far too many men over the years have reported increases in both length and girth using the VED with an understanding that it is not a quick fix.  Many men have stated that results were seen after many months of tedious waiting, but their tenacity proved not to be in vain. On a similar note my friend, a straight/straighter unit far exceeds the remaining presence of indents.

3. "ps, here is what Dr. Levine had to say on mechanisms 2.5 years ago - aninclomplete answer IMHO.

"Dr Levine answers:

The use of vacuum therapy has been considered a treatment option for some years without documented evidence of benefits. Several non-published reports from physicians and patients have suggested that they have seen improvements with chronic use of a vacuum device. The suggested mechanism is that stretching the penile tissue on a regular basis encourages the remodeling of the tunica albuginea and this straightens the penis. Years ago the Russians used the principle of stretching bones with a surgically placed device and that this in turn results in bone growth to lengthen shortened limbs. The problem is being able to provide prolonged pressure to the penis that such a change could occur. The recommended approach that I have used with patients (without any clear evidence of benefits as of yet) is to apply the vacuum once to twice per day in a progressive fashion until they could tolerate leaving the device in place for thirty minutes. Using a pulse of vacuum for short term (i.e. 5 minutes) may not be beneficial and may potentially cause injury. Leaving the device on for any longer than thirty minutes is dangerous as it can cause a low oxygen state, which may cause vascular and internal damage. Studies that I conducted in the past using a vacuum device revealed that the apparent straightening of the penis with the vacuum on is due to the expansion of tissues deep to the skin, but superficial to the tunica albuginea. As a result of having girth enhancement around the scar tissue within the tunica, a masking effect of the deformity occurs which results in what appears to be a more full and straight penis. My opinion is that this straightening is not real and yet a multi-centered study is being developed to test the benefits of chronic use of vacuum therapy to straighten the penis."

I would say that incomplete is an understatement. Not to mention that this is "HIS" opinion/theory if you will. Other urologists of his acclaim have published or stated on public forums their opinions pertaining to VED therapy, many of which  are so contrary to Levine's report that readers and diligent researchers, such as myself, could easily wonder if these doctors are on the same page. I therefore revert to my original opinion, practical application and some common sense among confused and conflicting theoretical accounts bears a clearer picture for the layman Peyronies Disease sufferer. May I also say  that I frequently converse with Rico and he has proven to me that he is a man possessing an above average drive for information and has solid roots in the common sense department.

4. "OMG... I just googled "Peyronies" and "Erecaid" to find this link, and found "Posts by Tim468" - with a link to THIS thread - before I found the link I wanted. Gee - is it time to cut back on my posting here!?"

I certainly hope that you are being the humble man that you claim to be For many years I went and sometime still do go by the pseudonym "PDFTD", at one time a google search of PDFTD would yield nearly a thousand hits, still pulling hundreds
of hits only because I have backed off posting for many months due to severe health problems. It's a good thing Tim that a google search has pulled you up as a poster because I think you are a smart man and you should be heard in venues other then just one. But I most humbly advise you that your not alone.   . Peace and warm regards.

Barry        

[Tim468]

Barry,

I do not think that what I think is being presented well enough. I am trying to think through what tissue forces - applied to a penis - might be expected to do. That a treatment works does not mean that the theory behind it is correct. IOW, for instance, it may be that verapamil reduces placgue size because of the collagenase like activity of verapamil. But it also mught be due to the actual needling of the placque. A theory says "here is a reason". It does not say "here is the truth". Nor do I.

What I have tried to put down here is not - to my knowledge - contrary to what most people think about the way that a vacuum applied to the penis works, nor is my explanation of why a narrower diamter tube exerts a longitudinal force to the penis at odds with the whole graduated cylinder technique theory that Old Man has shared with us. IOW, I think I am trying to say the same thing.

What I am ALSO trying to say or perhaps ask is WHY does it work. I am not quibbling with the thought that a stretch helps. I am asking how does it exert a force that heals sometimes, and does not heal sometimes. Of note, of the five hits I got in my medlit search for Peyronies Disease and vacuum, 4 out of 5 were reports of VEDs CAUSING Peyronies disease. I did not harp on those reports - but on the other hand, we cannot discount them either.

When we talk about "rearranging collagen fibers" or such like, we are talking through our hats, for we do not have any histologic evidence of what VED's do to the penis. We do not know if the normal tissue is stretched out, or if the abnormal tissue is stretched out - just that the penis is straighter after a long period of time of doing this. But the increase in girth could conceivably cause worsening of the angulation; and focusing on the angulation, could neglect the decreases in girth (or the "dents"). I think that the multiple sized cylinder technique was worked out empirically, and it works because it attends to both issues.

When I said that Rico may be incorrect, I was referring to his explanations of what the stretching is doing. I have read many explanations of what is happening when things are done (here and elsewhere), and now and then I do want to remind us how speculative it all is. What we say here starts to carry a ring of truth as if it is incontrovertable. It is not. But I fear, Barry, that you are mixing up my cautions about doing that, with a sense that I have a "better" way to explain it (I do not - I merely have one that makes more sense to me), or that I think that the VED is dangerous or doesn't work or needs to be fixed - I don't think that either.

But I do believe that if we simply do things without examining what the mechanisms are, then we are at risk of hurting ourselves, or ignoring ways to move ahead. We can get Verapamil injections and end up worse. We can use vitamin E for a year and not learn there is a better way. I think the VED has enormously exciting potential and can be improved. But to learn how to improve it - I think we need to look very critically at what our assumptions are. Most of what I think about the VED effects, BTW, is based on my reading of tissue expansion literature using implanted saline bags that are gradually inflated, and the data on the changes to the collagen matix of the skin (the tissue being expanded). Also, I have worked for years on a chest expansion protocol that uses implantable titanium ribs expanding devices to increase chest wall girth. So I have some information about how tissue responds to a constantly applied force.

I have to go - but I came away with the feeling that you feel I am taking a wildly different view on what a VED does than mainstream thought. I do not believe that is true, so I tend to think that I am not expressing myself well enough, and am unsure why you think that.

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

I'm still using the soma correct myself, just finished week 5 using the A cylinder.  Three people on this forum have told me that they've seen size restored and straightening from VED usage, I can't say this about any other mainstream treatment including Iontophoresis, Topical Verapamil, Vitamin E, ALC, and others.  This is enough for me to continue pursuing this treatment.  Its hard for me to tell if it is working or not yet because I'm taking the trazodone which keeps my flaccid penis more "pumped," if you will.  One thing is for sure, when I get done using the A cylinder my penis seems to be stretched lengthwise, and when done using the B cylinder, its stretched girth wise.  Tim, I believe you are right about those theories.  I haven't gotten to the C cylinder yet, but to me that seems like it will give a length and girth stretch.  I think while its easy for some of us to use these treatments and if they work just not analyze them, we still need to do this, as Tim is doing.  The VED may not work for everyone, but if we can figure out why it works for some and the method we may be able to figure out other ways to help people with peyronies.  In essence, we are doing what doctors SHOULD be doing, but they aren't so why not throw around some theories.  

My condition has certainly not gotten worse since I've been using the VED, thats for sure, I never have any pain either, so therefore I conclude for myself I will continue the treatment.  My plaque is older though and may be calcified, Dr. Carrol from Orlando, Florida had told me you can't use the VED without first softening the plaque with Iontophoresis(which did nothing for me after 25 treatments), however some of the men on this site that reported success to me, only used the VED with nothing else.  

I believe Old Man had reported before that Augusta Medical Systems did do a detailed study on VED usage on peyronies, I'm wondering how we can obtain access to these results, and why they wouldn't make them available?  I also believe Augusta is currently doing a study with their three cylinder VED right now in regards to further FDA required testing.  Many unanswered questions regarding VED's, we should continue to examine them, analyze and share our results with each other.

I know there are some others out there working with the VED cause I have talked to them via PM, give us an update on how things are going, what you think each tube is doing, etc.  

[Old Man]

Note to all:

The only thing that I can say about the fact that results of studies being done with VEDs are not made public is because of the proprietary rights of the manufacturers or the research group. A company doing business always keeps their trade secrets, if you will very private and secret. Giving away their known methods would allow others to copy their procedures and modify them slightly and thereby get a patent or other rights to produce the item.

In time, when some of the studies that are now being done by research organizations are finished, the results will be published. The study now being conducted by a group in Birmingham, AL is supposed to be nearing completion and their results should be available soon. There has, as far as I know, no published information from that group as yet.

In the meantime, as I have said all along regarding VED therapy, it works for some and not for others. What causes the difference between guys of varying degrees of Peyronies Disease symptoms, no one seems to know. I have worked with guys who were only weeks into Peyronies Disease and others that have had it for years. Some  have had positive results while others have not. One thing that has been noticed in my VED usage along with others is that a maintenance schedule of exercises must be kept up to maintain retaining lost dimensions. IMHO, this is related to the fact that most guys with Peyronies Disease also have an ED problem which the regular stretching exercises assists in maintaining good blood flow necessary for a health penis.

Again, the above observations are strictly those of the writer and individual results will not necessarily be obtainable by others. I have no clue as to why this happens.

Old Man

[Steve]

ComeBackid,

I like your call for updates on VED users, so here's mine.

First a little history.  After discovering an alarming bend a year and a half ago (70 degrees up, right behind the Glans), and researching it, I went to my GP who sent me to a Uro.  They both confirmed what I'd suspected, that I had Peyronies Disease.  The first thing the Uro did was to put me on a Topical Verapamil (TV).  He didn't recommend the Peyronies Disease-Labs stuff...he didn't even mention it.  I had a local compounding pharmacy mix up some, and tried it for about 15 weeks.  Same results that most people have gotten with the Peyronies Disease-Labs stuff, but a LOT less money!  Next, we went to the Verapamil Injections (VI) starting at 10mg every 2 weeks.  Pretty uncomfortable!  I'd asked about the shots actually causing more plaque, and my Uro told me of a study done that showed that the shots did not cause additional plaque.  I never saw the study, and couldn't find any reference to it on the web.  After 6 shots at 10mg didn't have any positive results, he upped the dosage to 20mg and continued for another 6 shots (12 shots total).  The only results from all the shots was an occasional badly bruised penis, and more lumps (plaque?) around the injection sites!  So much for the 'study'.

With 2 shots to go out of the 12, I convinced him to write me a prescription for a Soma Correct (which the insurance never paid for either ) so I started the VED while still on VI.  The last 2 shots were real bruisers, so while the bruise was present, I held off on the VED, so I really didn't get started on the protocol until after all the shots.

Long story short, I'm now at week 12 of the protocol (17 weeks after 'starting'), and so far, there are no results to report .  I'm not discouraged yet, and I'm going to wait until all 26 weeks of the protcol before deciding if it helps me or not.

Immediately after pumping, I notice a bit more 'color' and fullness in my penis, but after a half hour or so, it's back to 'normal'.  Here's what I've seen with each of the cylinders:

A (smallest diameter) - I've got to use both black sealing inserts to prevent pinching  .  I think the new model Soma Correct is supposed to address this issue?  When I started, there was a definate gap between me and the cylinder in the area of the hourglass.  Now, I seem to be filling the cylinder more, so this may   be some positive results.  I'm working strictly on memory here, so I may be wrong.  The size forces the erection to be straight, so this should definitely give some lengthwise stretching.  My recommendation to someone starting is to use LOTS of lube in the A cylinder.  There's lots of sliding going on in this size, and you need to prevent sticking!

B (middle diameter) - Sometimes, I get pinching here too, but I can get by with just the large insert.  There is a definite gap in this cylinder between me and the cylinder wall in the area of my bend/hourglass.  A little bend may be present in this cylinder, but there is still a lot of stretching lengthwise.

C (largest diameter) - When pumping with this cylinder, I fill the diameter around the base of my penis for about 2 inches or so (about the location of the VI injections).  From there out, there is very little contact with the wall of the cylinder except for the top of my Glans where the bend forces it in contact with the cylinder wall (there's probably contact at the bottom of the curve too, but it's hard to see the bottom -- I haven't gotten out a mirror to see what's going on down there).  I can see that almost all the stretching in this cylinder is widthwise.  I'm hoping that someday, I'll be able to fill most of the cylinder all the way up.  This for me would be proof that the hourglass is gone.

Oh well, enough rambling...how's everyone else doing?  I've got 14 more weeks of protocol to go before I pass judgement on the process.

Steve

[Rico]

Steve and members,

Thank you all for sharing, this is a positive step to the left and adjusting for all are needs.

Steve with a serve bend 70 degrees right on the end is a difficult bend vs one that is in the middle IMO. My thoughts also, yours being 70 degrees is above average in severity of the condition also.

With this said, the protocol I believe will work for you, but might take longer. I say this for two reasons, the 70 degree being the most apparent, but the location also. I believe in leverage. If you were to straighten a pipe and it was bent in the middle, it would be much easier to straighten than one that was bent on the end, the actually weight or leverage or the rest of the penis will help in accelerating the stretching.

I have talked off line with people that it took up to a year, at first this seem like a eternity to me, now I look at it as a God Send, one year, I can do this, two years, I can do that also, especially if I'm seeing results after months...some see results in two or three months.

I think we all know that totally over all health is paramount in any rehabilitation of a tissue of any kind, your body just responds better. Also if you were able to soften the plaque, taking the time to warm up the area, just like exercising, I know that I never stretch like the old days cold, I alway move around for awhile and then stretch, get the blood flowing, maybe putting warm water on yourself with a shower massage ect...or a warm bath ect...it is a workout, conditioning, stretch program.

I would like to personally thank Tim and Angus and others on this forum for getting this positive exchange going, I know when I have been involved in other endeavors of my life, people in the groups of my interest would do some in fighting, I always took the stance that these are people I like because we have the same interest, I never meet a Martial Artist I didn't like, or someone who was into cooking ect....we had much in common, but maybe we thought different about things, spiritual people also, I don't care if you love Jesus or Buddha, it is that your heart and spirit are on the path of giving and helping your fellow man....I love all my brothers with peyeronies, I can relate to there pain and although we might have different approaches, in reality we all are in the same boat to some degree, like five men in a fox hole from all different races and creeds in the service, you become a band of brothers and watch each others back...peyronies shows no prejudice, young and old, black or white, God fearing or not....the list go on, but in the end we will all be bound forever by this and are recovery will be in numbers and unity...Thank you all for being here for me....I love ya!!  God Bless...

Rico

[Hawk]

Gentlemen,

Please do the inconvenient thing and keep a log so this is not fuzzy memory a year from now.  We need patient analysis of the VED in very specific terms.  These updates are good.  

I would suggest noting your degree of bend and marking the length on the outer wall of the VED at a full comfortable pump on each cylinder and compare gains or decrease in curve.  Even use photos for your own evaluation.  If you use the large cylinder one time in the beginning at a full comfortable pump, mark length, note curve, and take a photo of curve in the VED it seems easy to end the 26 weeks with this same evaluation.

The only question to remain would be the impact on a natural erection before and after the 26 weeks.  This data will help determine if we have a viable treatment, what the actual degree of improvement is, or if this is money and time spent that does not produce results.  You are the pioneers for others.  

Good luck, and thanks to all of you for the contributions you make for us and those yet to be diagnosed.

[Steve]

Hawk,

Good idea in marking the cylinders...I'll get on that tomorrow.  As to record keeping, I've got a digital photo of a 'natural' erection, each week since I started my treatments.  On one of them, I drew a straight line with a pen while soft, and then got an erection and used that line to determine my 70 degree bend.  It never hurts to have more measurments, so I'll be marking each cylinder for length next time I use each one.

Thanks for the ideas.

Steve

[Rico]

Steve,

I was reading your post, you said  that your bend is up by the glands, but you said the tube fills up by the base, where you had your shots, why where the shots given there if the plaque is up by the glands?

Rico

[Steve]

Yeah, I asked the Uro the same question...he said that he injected in the same place from the outside, but targeted different areas of the plaque on the inside.  In retrospect, I'm not sure he was even injecting in the right place either!

[ComeBacKid]

For me it is still to early to give an analysis, and as I said before, since I"m on the trazodone now, which I started after I finished the Iontophoresis treatments, its hard to tell cause my penis has a "full," and "pumped," effect.  I will give an update on my Soma Correct usage at the halfway(13 week mark), and when I"m done at 26 weeks.  Just starting week 6 for now.  

I know we have a few guys out there using the traction devices, according to those sites you should have seen like an inch gain by now, are they blowing smoke up our ass again Want It, SteveW... others?

[Tim468]

Just a quick note about injections. When one injects a medicine, you may be targeting different areas. Most commonly, this is seen in injecting numbing medicine. Thus, I may insert a needle at point A, and then, while it is still in the skin, advance the needle such that I can now squirt some into target B, then withdraw a bit, angle it, advance it again, and inject into target C. Most people prefer this to removing the needle completely, and reinserting it through the skin, because the surface of the skin is where the pain fibers are.

Thus, it is reasonable for a doc tor to grab a penis near the end, say (and I was not there- and sometimes patients do not like to *watch*), and to the insert the neede from a point closer to the base, and to advance it under the skin to the target. I would assume this was what happened, not that he was insane.

Tim

[Steve]

Thanks Tim for the Dr's point of view .  It's a lot clearer than what my Uro said.

[Mick]

Hi All:

    I just finished the final (182nd) procedure of the Augusta Protocol which I began back in February of this year, so this is my final monthly report.  There has been no observable progress during the past month, and as those of you who have been following my progress might recall, there was no observable progress duing months 3, 4, and 5, but there was significant progress duing the first two months.  Overall, to summarize, I have regained 1/2" in both faccid and erect length and 5/8" in girth.  My dorsal curve of 15 degrees has disappeared completely, but my scaring (3/8" band from base to glans) shows no observable change, except for a possible slight narrowing at the glans.

    I visited my uro on Tuesday and showed him my stats.  He had not been a believer in the VED, but because I was able to convince him that I knew what I was talking about (thanks to Old Man's educating me) and because he was naturally curious, a trait I find admirable in a physician, he wrote me the required prescription for the Soma Correct.  He was amazed at what I reported, and when I told him about Levine's study, he said he looked forward eagerly to seeing it.

    Meanwhile, I had contacted Old Man and he has given me some advice on follow-up use of the Soma, which I intend to follow.  If there is any change in my condition, up or down, I will report it on this thread.

    In summary, I didn't get everything I had hoped for, but more than I expected, and on balance I am very pleased with what has happened.  I thank God every day for finding this forum, for Hawk and especially for Old Man.  

Respy, Mick

     

[Tim468]

Mick,

Thanks for your update. It is really encouraging to read of successes - and in an odd way, for me, it is more encouraging to read of "real life" success, where the change is for the better, not "perfect". Hearing your story puts it all in a different light that reading statistics does not do.

May I ask what degree of negative pressure you used to create a vacuum? My pump has a gauge, and I can go easily to somewhere between 100 to 200 mm mercury negative pressure. Any higher is uncomfortable and (IMO) unhealthy. I hold a vacuum for about 10 - 20 seconds, as recommended here on this board. The thing is, I have no idea if I shouldn't be doing that. I see a difference in "inflation" at higher pressures (especially after a few warmups), so it makes me believe that it is better to go to the higher (but still comfortable) level. And a little tugging sensation seems OK - after all, when I stretch my legs I go till I feel resistence and a sense of "Can't go much further".

Do you or Old Man have any comments on what pressure level to use, and what to not exceed?

Tim

[Mick]

Hi Tim:

I have no idea what pressure I used, since I had no gauge.  At first, I just pumped till it hurt, then backed off.  After a short while, I had a sense of how far to go.  Like you, I would sometimes go a little higher to where it was slightly uncomfortable but not really painful.  I would guess that, by the end of the six months, I might have gone a little too far once every two or three sessions.  I would then release the  pressure slightly, or if I were almost finished with the cycle, completely.  I usually held the pressure for 20 seconds, but during the past month or so I sometimes went longer, expecially on the 10th cycle.  I think that after a while one simply gets a feel for it, like learning to ride a bike.

New subject: Just for the fun of it I called Augusta a few minutes ago and asked for Technical Support.  I got the same woman I got the only other time I called, which was about a week or so into the protocol (late Feb. or early March).  I told her that I had just completed the  26 week protocol and asked her where I should go from there.  She asked me if I was using the Soma for ED.  I said "no, for Peyronies."  She replied that they only gave advice now for ED.  All she could do for me was to give me a website to look at.  I asked her why, and she replied that the FDA had "ordered" them to stop advising re Peyronies.  I asked if they had the power to do that, and she answered that they did.  I thanked her, hung up.  It will be interesting to see what they have to say about the new Soma, when, and if, it comes out.

Respy, Mick  

[Old Man]

Mick:

First, thank you for your support of me and the VED usage. I am only trying to pass on to others what has been given me. So, I am truly glad and thankful that you experienced at least some relief of Peyronies Disease. When you start on the follow on therapy, let me know how you are doing.

BTW, note for all. The web address for the vacuum therapy study is: www.vacuumtherapy.org and not .com as stated in Mick's post below.

Mick: Try the new address and you will find that it will bring you to the Birmingham study.

Good luck to all. Regards, Old Man

[Old Man]

Dr. Tim:

I guess the best way to answer your question to me and Mick about the amount of pressure to use is this: When first starting out on vacuum therapy, practice for several days with only enough vacuum to allow a slight erection to begin. If you feel any pain or discomfort at any time while pumping pressure, it is an indication that you are using too much force. So, if you follow the 26 week protocol that was published with the Soma Correct when it first came to the market, you will be on the right track. (The reason that Augusta probably told Mick they could not support advice in using the Soma Correct for Peyronies Disease is due to the fact that it had to be pulled from the market by FDA as I understand it.)

Again, use only enough pressure that feels "right" or comfortable. Somewhere in previous posts it has been indicated that using a certain med along with too much VED pressure had caused more trauma. So bottom line, IMHO, it is not entirely necessary to have a vacuum gage in any VED therapy to progress with the exercise sesseions. Just a final word of caution, again, do not use too much vacuum force to cause further trauma.

I just read the latest Ask the Doctor's monthly Q&A on the APDA web site and it had several good ones on the use of meds as well as the VED therapy. Might be good reading for those interested.

The protocol on the www.vacuumtherapy.org site is basically the same as the original Soma 26 week regimen, but it does not state the cycles in quite enough detail. If one studies it carefully, it will become clearer so that it can be followed without incident.

Regards to all, Old Man

[ComeBacKid]

I just read the Ask the Doctor section regarding VED's and what not, interesting they are finally taking the devices seriously, Old Man will be vindicated!

My question is tomorrow I start week 7 with the C cylinder, and it seems like my penis in the A, and B cylinder will fully straighten out and touch the sides of the cylinder, but in the C it won't.  It remains bent and doesn't fill out the tube, on this sheet I have it says if your penis bends in the tube, go back to the next smallest tube, however most people don't seem like they have done this. Pondering if I should do another week on the B cylinder or not, but I don't think I'd ever be able to fill up the C cylinder, hell who do they think I am Ron Jeremy!  

[Old Man]

Note to all using the Soma Correct VED:

It is best to stay on the recommended scheduled routine as stated in the protocol. Going back a week or two may or may not help. The regimen is designed to give the penis a routine of stretching and/or expanding on a controlled basis. So, stick to the regimen as stated is my recommendation.

As far as Old Man being ahead of his time, that has been the story of my life so nothing new here on tha point either. The VED was developed many years ago by a man who was the pioneer on the subject. Since he had a very severe case of Peyronies Disease, the old axium of necessity is the mother of all inventions applies in his case. He just kept on trying things until he found one that worked and he was rewarded for his efforts.

The mistake that has been made so many times in the past by users of vacuum therapy is that they expected too much too soon with their recovery. Again, though, I state categorically that there are some cases that resist all efforts with a VED to work. So, buyer beware, is the best advice I can give to anyone wanting to use the VED therapy. Go into it with a positive attitude and if it fails, at least you tried. It has worked for a great number, they just don't come back in public and state their success many times.

Regards to all, Old Man

[howcanthisbe]

wow Mick its great to see someone having success with the VED. May I ask you though if you had any dents did it get rid of those? Also if you had erection problems did it help that too? Old Man im glad your on this forum, your story always gives me hope as when things get to bad to manage for me im going to use the VED method for sure. I have a quick question for you Old Man also, you mentioned you had a strecthing exercise that  helps? I was thinking about that yesterday as yesterday was a bad day for me because it seemed my dent was getting a little bigger and I had a slight ache that would come for a few secs every few hours. I thought my conditioning was worsening but today the dent looks the same as always and the pain is gone. Anyways I was looking as I stretched the dent I could see it go away or appear to go away, so couldnt I just stretch and hold this stretch for like 5 mins a day a few times a day? Just a thought, I was just wondering what you thought on this. Thanks everyone.

[Mick]

Hi Howcanthisbe:

No dents and no erection problems, although I believe I am having more and better nocturrnal erections now.

Respy, Mick

[DannyOcean]

Hey all.  I've been looking into the VED thing more and am considering taking the plunge.  I had a few questions first before I make this (rather sizable) purchase:

1.  It seems like the Soma Correct is probably the way to go.  I don't have ED, just Peyronies Disease and I've had it for about three months.  It's fairly minor (10-15 degree curve, no pain) and has not seemed to worsen since I first noticed it.  From what I've read here (and I've read every post! the Soma Correct is probably the way to go right?

2.  Has anyone had any luck in getting insurance to cover all or a portion of this?  I'm in California and on Blue Cross.  If anyone has found a way to get reimbursed or covered for this I'd love to hear your stories.

3.  I do notice this website (http://www.healthproductsforyou.us/products_detail.asp?PID=2783) selling the Soma Correct for $513.20.  It'd be great to save the extra $85 but at the same time I think I might want to go right to the source.  Thoughts?

4.  The stories I've heard on here about VED are encouraging but almost too encouraging.  It seems like a very high percentage of people that have used the VED have had signficant improvement.  If this is the case then I'm wondering why most/all people aren't using it and why doctors aren't aware of its benefits.  It isn't cheap but when you compare it to the lifetime costs of medications to treat Peyronies Disease it seems like a drop in the bucket.

OK, I think that's all for now.  If I think of any questions later I'll be sure to post them.  

Thanks!

[ComeBacKid]

1.  DannyOcean, in the beginning 7 years ago I had the same symptons as you man, jsut a slight curve of about 15 degrees, no ED at all, could have sex all day until the cows came home.  Now 7 years later I get no erections at all all day unless i stare at a porn picture and daydream for a long time.  My penis is hardened, shrunken and bent more like 30 degrees.  Man do I wish I would of attacked this thing full force way back then!  I was 15 at the time and to embarrased to see a doctor and couldn't just go on my own, let alone drive myself there on my own.  I don't think the VED can hurt you I'd start as soon as possible.

2.  DannyOcean, Mike Davis from Augusta Medical Systems helped me get it covered, and I bought it from Dr. Carrol not straight from Augusta Medical Systems, however he helped me fight like hell for coverage, it is a battle man but go for it and dont BACK DOWN TO YOUR INSURANCE!  I'd get a letter of medical necessity handy.  So far I got mine insurance to cover $146.75, I'm fighting now for the full $400 promised to me.  If they deny you appeal and it write to the company, site the three cylinder system and how its the only one out there if they try to get you to buy an in network VED.  Also get your doctor to prescribe it for ED, most insurance companies won't cover it for peyronies.

3.  There are some legitimate people selling it at a reduced rate, cause they get it at a reduced rate, I still haven't quite figured this structure of sales out yet, the VED doesn't cost as much as Augusta is selling it for but you get liftime warrante and can call a clinical specialist for help anytime. I don't know if you get this when you don't buy it from Augusta.  I know Old Man, Steve, both have the Soma I'd PM one of them to ask how much they paid for theirs, also Larry H has a soma I believe.  

4.  Danny when I went to the doctor and brought up the VED and traction they almost laughed me right out of Hershey hospital, rejected the idea and discounting me of a depressed and desperate young kid.  It is farily new, my only thought on this is I've talked to at least 4 people who saw results from VEDs, thats more than any other treatment for peyronies.  Also why would one of the leading urologists on peyronies in the world be doing a study with the VED and traction right now as we speak if they didn't believe in it somewhat?  There are many people on this forum working with the VED, not all post about it, we have at least 11 I've counted.

I've asked hawk in the near future to do a poll on the VED, he has said we will do one, so we can get some results on it.  We have not made one up yet but if someone wants to take the lead and make a VED poll that would be great.  We want to gather DATA and get facts out there on these treatments, no better than the DATA coming right from our own! I'm sure hawk would appreciate the help hes got a lot to do on here, one could just email him a poll they constructed. Oh by the way DannyOcean if you've ever used topical verapamil make sure you take our poll for members, its located on the PDS website part, we did have a link up in the NEWS section but it got taken down, I think most people have not seen all the polls we have done and have, so check them out!

ComeBackid

[Blink]

For anyone who wants info that I received for the soma correct, I contacted Mike at Augusta and he gave me this info. Edge Park Surgical. 1-800-321-0591  I got my doc to write a script for the soma correct. When he wrote it he stated that it was for ED, not Peyronies. It seems that my insurance carrier would not cover it for peyronies, but would for ED. I called Edge Park and spoke to someone about placing an order. They took down my info and started the ball rolling. They contacted my insurance provider, and then my doc. They got info faxed to them and completed my order. I got it fully covered. All I can say is: Call Edge Park Surgical and see if they can help. They did a great job. They even called me several times to tell me what progress was being made on my order. Very nice people. I hope this will help. I haven't really gotten into the VED as of yet. I will keep you all posted on any progress. I hope to begin in earnest by the weeks end. Keep the Faith...Blink

"Subject line on this post edited for easy reference"

[DannyOcean]

Thanks Blink.  So you order from Edge Park rather than from Soma directly?  I'm curious as to why this would work any better.  If anything it would seem that insurance would be more likely to cover it when ordered directly from the manufacturer.  Thoughts?

Thanks as well ComeBackid.  It's a shame that your urologist was so closed-minded.  I think that if we can show success with the VED then perhaps more people/doctors will be open to this as a treatment method.  It seems like a much more "natural" way to help heal Peyronies Disease and I'm always a big believer that the more natural you can remain when trying to fight disease/illness, the better off you will be in the long run.  

I haven't really heard of anyone having major issues with the VED when used properly and given the number of people that have claimed that it helped I think I'm ready to take the plunge.  Just need to do a little more research...

[ComeBacKid]

I think in regards to the doctor and his resident just about laughing me out of the physicians clinic that I knew more than they did on peyronies.  I started spewing out statistics like a doctor whos been studying this issue for months. When my doctor brought up verapamil injections and I cited our study showing them not to be that effective and questioned him on the injections further he dodged the question.  I even told him an ultra sound would be good to view the plaque and determine size and if its calcified or not, and he rejected this idea saying there was no need for it.

I think in general with no medical studies out, most doctors will reject the VED's as being effective in helping with peyronies.  Maybe once we get some we will see even more interest in them with more doctors. When I was in the waiting area the resident got kind of testy with me and didn't like me telling HIM what treatments are available for ME.  

[zigwyth]

FYI, guys. I had my Uro write a prescription. Only after writing an appeal to my Ins. saying I needed it for PEYRONIES, would they cover it 80%.Edge Park sent me an Osbon Classic manual VED. I now wish he would have written a prescription for a Soma 3 cyl. one. They will not exchange it now. So get a doc who knows what to write for your particular ins. coverage.
Zig the Twig

[Blink]

Yeah Zig, all insurance companies are differant. Mine would not cover for peyronies. I did make sure that my doc prescribed a Soma Correct. Everyone....Zig is right, make sure you know what the doc is prescribing BEFORE it is submitted. Keep the Faith...Blink


P.S., I have an Osbon Manual VED. If anyone wants it, and does not care if it was used, PM me. I only have one, so first come first served. ( it is clean!)

[Blink]

Someone has claimed the Osbon that I was giving away. Sorry everybody, but I only had one. Keep watching, maybe someone else willpart with one in the future.   Keep the Faith...Blink

[hopeful]

Rico.. This is Hopeful- I did research on the injections- the worst thing we can be doing- as it can cause more scar tissue an plaque.

There is an alternative- it is a needless injection system- have spoke to the company... Larry Peterson at Injex  www.injex.com  

These docs.. jus dont get it- there is new technology out there that they are not using.. cjeck it out- they just completed 3,000 patient trial study on ED patients..


Hopeful

Steve this makes no sense to me...I never had the shots, but I understand they shot them into the plaque, can you feel the plaque next to your glands? I know when you apply the topical, you put on the whole penis, but one might as well be rubbing it with Olive oil, you would get the same results. But if he thinks he is going to shoot you in the base and travel though your whole area all I have is one thing to say
"Coo Coo for Coca Puffs", I'm sure he wanted to do something and didn't want to shoot you in the upper part because of the pain, more nerves in this area....don't give up on the VED, it might take a year or more, but look how far you are now, I wish I had three or four months under my belt right now.....

I want to thank Hawk and Liam for talking about the ALC, I started it about a week ago and I can tell it has help my mood, I have read up on it, I think from a over all help with stress it is very good and has some good research behind it....

Rico

[hopeful]

Hey ComeBackid

It is me Hopeful- You know how I feel about the Docs.. time to get up and leave- when they don't know sh_t about what they are talking about...

I did research on the injections- the worst thing we can be doing- as it can cause more scar tissue an plaque.

There is an alternative- it is a needless injection system- have spoke to the company... Larry Peterson at Injex  www.injex.com  

These docs.. jus dont get it- there is new technology out there that they are not using.. cjeck it out- they just completed 3,000 patient trial study on ED patients..


Hopeful

I think in regards to the doctor and his resident just about laughing me out of the physicians clinic that I knew more than they did on peyronies.  I started spewing out statistics like a doctor whos been studying this issue for months. When my doctor brought up verapamil injections and I cited our study showing them not to be that effective and questioned him on the injections further he dodged the question.  I even told him an ultra sound would be good to view the plaque and determine size and if its calcified or not, and he rejected this idea saying there was no need for it.

I think in general with no medical studies out, most doctors will reject the VED's as being effective in helping with peyronies.  Maybe once we get some we will see even more interest in them with more doctors. When I was in the waiting area the resident got kind of testy with me and didn't like me telling HIM what treatments are available for ME.  

[hopeful]

Hi Mick..

This is Hopeful

I have a 35% bend at the top of my penis - Captain Hook- almost- I would be thrilled if I only had a 15%- where was your bend- are you saying that you have no bend at all??- that is fantastic- what else did oyu do besides the VED??/ _ pleae let me know.

Hopeful;

Hi All:

    I just finished the final (182nd) procedure of the Augusta Protocol which I began back in February of this year, so this is my final monthly report.  There has been no observable progress during the past month, and as those of you who have been following my progress might recall, there was no observable progress duing months 3, 4, and 5, but there was significant progress duing the first two months.  Overall, to summarize, I have regained 1/2" in both faccid and erect length and 5/8" in girth.  My dorsal curve of 15 degrees has disappeared completely, but my scaring (3/8" band from base to glans) shows no observable change, except for a possible slight narrowing at the glans.

[Rico]

Hopeful,

I don't know if the needless injections would work? The needle needs to go into the scar tissue, and as we know this is scar tissue which can be somewhat hard......this is why they need to use the size of the gauge of the needle they do...for it doesn't break off.....My urologist said he would use the topical verapamil because then I wouldn't have to come into the office....I feel he must not of had too much belief in the process because he said that the topical "Might" make the plaque softer.....so I would think if he thought that the injections were superior he would of told me this and wouldn't of worried about me having to come in for a office visit.....he also said that potaba would be his second choice or a combination with the topical, but also said it gave most of his clients flu like symptoms........so I declined it and took a supply of one month of the verapamil and didn't refill my order....I don't know if the delivery system is as much of a issue as the agent itself....too bring back the tunica elastic seems to me to be a very difficult task....the combination of remolding the plaque with VED use to regain the shape and size of the penis along with some sort of scar softener seems to be where the testing is going....of course the other approach is to use drugs like pentox, potaba, colchrine ect...I know on one site peyronies.org the doctor is fond of colchrine, he prescribes it for three months in the early stages.....this also plays on ones stomach, diarrhea ect....

It is not the doctors fault that they can't cure peyronies.....scar tissue has been around for years, the money that the NFL has, believe me, if they could cure scar tissue they would, professional sports address this issue everyday.....they have been using strectghing techniques and breaking up of the scar tissue..but this is in muscle also, not the replacement of the tunica, even after they break up the scar tissue the new method is to teach the athlete how to perform in a different maner with that muscle group, for instanace if you have a hamstring pull with scar tissue, you learn how to run more with your body lean forward to take stress of the hamstring and easier to stop quickly....I think we have to think of this also, from rodeo sex ect.....not over pumping ect....but it will always be there....the weakest link in the chain.....and everyones will be different to some extent.....

The drugs or method to attack peyronies I would think is looked at different by a good urologist or someone of Levine or Lue experience......if I had just a plaque with pain and curve(no hourglass or lost of size), then I would probally take the medicine approach.....but because my concerns are more with lost size and hourglass I'm leaning towards a mechanical approach(this is me not a doctors advise).....I have lost two inches and my goal is to get one back along with some girth, maybe a 1/2 inch at the hourglass spot.....I would be very happy with this result.....now someone with a serve bend at the glans needs to assest his peyronies and find some cases like this and find what has worked for them....

Peyronies that seems to attack the whole tunica is truly a diesease and if this was my case I would have to take a more over all health concern....maybe get a DEA study which are available now, for several hundred dollars....blood test, ect.....your immune system is out of whack....or something.....

We are all brothers with peyronies, but we all have a different twist:), or bend:) to this crap!!!

I know on one post I put on here when I first found out I had peyronies I wrote it could be worse, and for me this is true, but now to think of it, it was a insensitive post and I'm sorry for the person who was reading it and had a 90 degree bend at the glands with serve pain....I pray for these brothers of peyronies, they are the true victims of this disease.....it isn't fair.....I ask God why in church.....I pray that he spared me such a extreme version....even if I reach my goals which I feel I will with gaining some size back and stability, I will feel sad that all my brothers in arms won't be able to and it will be a bitter sweet victory for me....although it can give some hope, it won't cure everyone.....and this isn't fair..

God Bless you all and have a safe weekend!!

Rico

[Tim468]

Trying to post this again - system burped...

Dear Rico,

Thanks for your compassionate note to Hopeful. It is true, there are all kinds of variations in how we are affected with Peyronies Disease, and some cases are "worse" than others. I have pain at times, and a probable 35-45 upward curve in the distal end, and a dent at the base. But I can have pretty good sex usually.

But every man with Peyronies Disease struggles with grief and a sense of lost selfhood. I hesitate to say "manhood" because it goes deeper even than that.

Every man with Peyronies Disease has to go through the sadness that loss brings into our lives. We don't "handle it" - it handles us, and it reminds us of who is in charge, and it ain't us.

It really sucks, but I have found that trying to make it better, and learning to accept that I might be different forever (after all, I have been different for 30 years) have both helped me as a person.

Tim

[Mick]

Hi Hopeful:

I had a 15 degree dorsal bend beginning an inch or so below the glans.  It was reduced to 5 degrees the first month and eliminated the second by using the VED.  I didn't do anything else, not even vit. E, so that I can attribute all progress to the Soma  and the Augusta protocol.

Respy, Mick

[Mister Dillon]

Here it is—my first post and I feel like a school boy again.  I have been lurking on this forum for a few weeks now and I feel like I know most of you as old friends and don't want to embarrass myself --but here goes
I have to start out letting all of you know of thankful I am to have found this site, I am 64 years old and I have had peyronies for about 12 months now.  I started noticing pain and discomfort on full erection (it felt to me like I was overfilled but my wife told me that is less then normal volume) but did not notice any bend at that time,  Within 2  months a backward bend of over 50 degrees was a sure sign of Peyronies Disease.  I did not go to my Doc at the time since I researched the web and knew what I was dealing with.  At the time most of the information I found held out little hope for treatment except for eventual surgery after 12 to 24 months.  So I just lived with it for almost a year with little hope of improvement and both my wife and I accepted our fate.  My wife have been great and understanding but the lack of sex has hurts us both. And we were both, if not depressed at least we were sad for our loss.
Then my life changed—I found this site and found out that there are others out there and they are willing to help and there are things that I can try that may produce some relief.  As I said before I have been reading just about everything posted and especially on this thread and I have come to respect the information given here.

Now for my questions:
I have decided to try the VED therapy used by "old man" and have a couple of questions that I am still unclear about.
1.  I have a combination of ED and Peyronies Disease that makes it hard to choose between the Osbon Esteem as recommended for ED or the Soma Correct as recommended for Peyronies Disease.  I had some ED before the peyronies but it was helped by Levitra.    
2. I have read here somewhere that you should not engage in intercourse while using the VED therapy.  Does that mean that my wife and I must abstain for the 26 weeks of the program even if good progress is made and sex becomes possible again?

I am sure I will think of many more questions but this post is long enough.

Again thanks everyone for being here
Dillon
(PS  mister Dillon is not my real name-just a character form gunsmoke which some of you older guys will remember)
 

[Liam]

I see no reason to abstain from sex.  I think the idea is not to bend the penis as sometimes happens in,shall we say, "acrobatic" sex.

I have a dog who hurt his leg as a pup and limped.  His name is Chester.  He's a greyhound and can haul buggy now.