VED's - Vacuum Erection Devices

[Angus]

OldMan:
Sorry if i came off sounding the wrong way, i am just trying to figure out if VED is for me. That's why i want to see if another uro will hint at Peyronies Disease, because from what i understand if it is congenital then the only thing you can do is surgery. Off tangent, you don't perhaps receive some remuneration from the makers of these devices, Oldman, for helping them closely with their designs ??

I am still wondering if improvement of curvature were to occur couldn't that simply be a case of another plaque forming on the opposite side of the shaft...because all you are basically doing is trying to "bend" it back to horizontal?

    Wayne, you're over-thinking this. The thought that curves are straightened by forming a plaque on the other side is absurd. You may be confusing this with plication surgery which DOES shorten the other side. The two are not remotely the same. We are talking here about re-modeling a penis through vacuum therapy and the discussion isn't carried to the molecular level as this is a message board to provide support to those with Peyronies Disease, not compose papers for Science or Nature periodicals. There is no mystery; if you want to try a VED, then get one and try it and see what you get. Others have, and found improvement. If all you hear is "nothing can be done except surgery", then get a VED, use it and try to prove it wrong? The VED, when used RESPONSIBLY will not harm you.
    Old Man has stated in many, many of posts, probably hundreds here, that he does not recieve compensation for endorsement of any VED from anyone... have you actually read past posts and studied the forum threads? He also states in almost every post that his text represents his thoughts only, gained from years and years of fighting the effects of Peyronies Disease, Erectile Dysfunction and Radical Prostatectomy. These are horrid, debilitating conditions that strike absolute fear in the hearts of all men. He chooses, instead of getting lost in despair, to be on this forum and share thoughts and techniques that work for many men. His advice and experience with VED's has brought relief, comfort and resolution to many, many men. I do not believe you have read Old Mans, or for that matter many other posts very far back in this and other threads; if you had read thoroughly you would not come to a conclusion that would drive you to hint that Old Man is in this for money. We all get paid the same here; zero. We're here because we want to help nurture the RESPONSIBLE discussion of the effects of Peyronies Disease, current treatments and studies, and how men can help THEMSELVES.  

[wayne999]

OldMan:
Sorry if i came off sounding the wrong way, i am just trying to figure out if VED is for me. That's why i want to see if another uro will hint at Peyronies Disease, because from what i understand if it is congenital then the only thing you can do is surgery. Off tangent, you don't perhaps receive some remuneration from the makers of these devices, Oldman, for helping them closely with their designs ??

I am still wondering if improvement of curvature were to occur couldn't that simply be a case of another plaque forming on the opposite side of the shaft...because all you are basically doing is trying to "bend" it back to horizontal?

    Wayne, you're over-thinking this. The thought that curves are straightened by forming a plaque on the other side is absurd. You may be confusing this with plication surgery which DOES shorten the other side. The two are not remotely the same. We are talking here about re-modeling a penis through vacuum therapy and the discussion isn't carried to the molecular level as this is a message board to provide support to those with Peyronies Disease, not compose papers for Science or Nature periodicals. There is no mystery; if you want to try a VED, then get one and try it and see what you get. Others have, and found improvement. If all you hear is "nothing can be done except surgery", then get a VED, use it and try to prove it wrong? The VED, when used RESPONSIBLY will not harm you.

I wasn't confusing it with plication, i was just throwing up an idea. Would it be possible though in the case of a congenital curve to damage one's penis with VED, based on the idea that if the curvature is caused by a congenital case of one chamber being longer than the other (or something like this) , then forcing the shorter chamber to straighten up would cause microbleeds/scarring etc ?

Another quesiton i have: You are supposed to use the VED to achieve a state similar to what you could get when naturally fully erect i assume. Has anyone experienced whilst pumping that they achieve their "natural" girth level but find that the "natural" length is not achieved? (thus you would have to pump more to get the length but at the risk of doing too much on the girth). I suppose this question is based on the notion of how drawing blood in from the pressure is different to the body doing it naturally.

Angus: I have read the summary pages in the child board area. Thanks for everyones input, just trying to make an informed decision.

[Old Man]

wayne999:

I am beginning to realize that you are over thinking things about VED usage. VED usage in the case of congenital curve should be only if one cannot achieve a natural erection. Vacuum applied to the erectile chambers should be similar even though the chambers may or may not be longer than each other. However, if one has congenital curves, has ED and needs artificial help for erections, VEDs can and will be an immense tool (no pun intended) to assist one for the problem.

It has been stated, oh so many times, on this forum that VED usage must be approached with extreme caution not to use too high a vacuum pressure. As with any device, using too much force will surely lead to serious problems. So, in VED usage, caution in how they are used is of utmost importance.

Based on my many years of experience in VED usage, along with other therapies, I have learned that moderation is the best approach to any therapy for ED and Peyronies Disease. So, again, if you are satisfied that you only have congenital curve(s) and do not need assistance with ED, maybe the VED therapy should not be used by you. You and you alone can determine if the VED approach is right for you. On the other hand, VED therapy would probably not do you any harm if used carefully. Remember our caution: if it causes pain or discomfort in any manner, cease using the VED and find out the case of the problem.

Old Man

[wayne999]

OldMan:
I didn't mean to ask if VED was specifically for a sole case of congenital curve (without ED etc.). Rather, i was just wondering that in the possibility of my case not being Peyronies Disease and instead being congenital, would the VED do any damage. Because it would seem to me in this case that one is not stretching any scar tissue but is trying to "remodel" normal tissue, so i am not sure if that is of any concern.

I've got another uro appointment but there is a 1mth wait.

[Old Man]

wayne999:

Please read the last paragraph of my previous post. I stated that if in fact have a congenital curve and not Peyronies Disease, that VED usage may not be for you. I really don't think that VED usage could hurt anything as long as you used it in moderation. It does provide much more blood flow into the corporal chambers than a natural erection, so over pumping in that case can and will cause further damage.

Again, only you can determine through consultation with a qualified uro whether or not you have Peyronies Disease and if you should use VED therapy. As has been said many times on this forum, we are not uros and therefore cannot and will not diagnose anything for anybody on the forum.

Old Man

[newguy]

I have read the odd posting elsewhere from people with congenital curves finding that their curves have improved slightly due to use of traction or VED. However these accounts are certainly few and far between. On a more cautionary note, I have also read of peoples curves becoming "more" pronounced. Congenital curves are of course not the ideal but I can't help feeling that its better to have a stable congenital curve, than an unstable peyronies condition. Whatever you do, please don't take a gung-ho approach.

[CHRISTODOULOU]

Hi Old Man

I trust you are well

Thanks for all your help re my brother's Peyronie. He has surprised me by telling me that he uses two cylinders b and c 4 to 5 pumps every 15 to 20 seconds to get erection and then holds for 20 seconds and then releases and then repeats a further 9 times every day for 6 months

His UK uro prescribed this procedure for him. He, therefore, as you can see uses 2 not 3 cylinders. Should he be using 3 and if so is the above exercises he is taking correct?

Finally is there any info and/or studies that show that certain foods and uncircumcision increase chances of Peyronie's and that certain herbal teas act as remedies?

Sorry for the many questions

Take care

Christodoulou

[Old Man]

Christodoulou:

The procedure that your brother's UK uro prescribes for use by him is somewhat different from the usual 26 week protocol that most of us on the main forum use.

Our three cylinder VED protocol is listed in the VED section of the Childs Board forum. This can be located by logging in and going to the Home Page. You will see the main links in the middle of that page. Select the Childs Board link and it will take you to the listing of the topics on the board. Select the VED one and it will bring up the posts about VED usage from the members.

There are two protocols listed there: one is for the three cylinder purchased model VEDs and one for the VEDs that have been made by members themselves. You will need to select the one for the three cylinder purchased models.

You should bring this to the attention of your brother so that he can discuss it with his uro in the UK. We have found that the three cylinder protocol works best for Peyronies Disease therapy. His uro may want to use a modified procedure so it would be up to them to decide which is best, etc.

There has been some discussion on the forum about certain foods, medicines and other things that may or may not cause or affect Peyronies Disease. I know of no one that specifically states that they were the cause Peyronies Disease. Whether or not a person is circumcised or not does not appear to make any difference in the realm of Peyronies Disease. This subject has been the brunt of various heavy discussions in earlier posts on the forum, so I won't go there. But, bottom line, I know of not one person who has stated that circumcision was the cause of their Peyronies Disease.

Hopefully, the above helps with your questions. If not, just let me know and I will endeavor to find an answer for you.

Old Man

PS: Yes, I am doing quite well for such an old codger!!!

[newguy]

Old man - Was any consensus ever reached over whether the VED should be used in an active phase of peyronies? Of course "everybody is different" and there-in lies the problem, but do you think that there is more to be gained by using the VED in what appears to be an active stage, or rather waiting until nature (or un-nature) takes its course and more stability is present (even though in some cases that point is a long time coming)? I suppose the upside of starting VED therapy early is that the ability to reshape scar tissue in the early stages is possibly maximised. The downside may be that inflammation could "possibly" be prolonged. What's your view?

[Old Man]

newguy:

You have asked the 64K dollar question. There have been many schools of thought about this subject. I used the VED with the active stage and when it was over the active stage. Both had about the same results. Since I have several bouts of Peyronies Disease, many and varied therapies were tried. Some worked and some did not. So, based on my many years of struggling with this horrible mess, IMHO VED therapy should be started as soon as possible after confirming that Peyronies Disease was diagnosed.

However, with this caveat, I strongly recommend that when inflammation is present, that only a minimal amount of vacuum pressure be used. This way, you preclude the possibility of aggravating it. IMHO, the stretching during this stage does help with keeping healthy blood flowing into and out of the corporal chambers to promote penile health as well as possibly helping with the scar tissue, plaque and other symptoms.

Old Man

[CHRISTODOULOU]

Thanks Old Man, very helpful. I gave him a copy of the protocol when I was recently in the UK. ''Old codger''? That's a Cockney/Londoner's phrase too! Ok then, respect to you for being a very helpful old codger :-)

Thanks again

Christodoulou

[wayne999]

OldMan:
You said you'd used the VED during the active phase, which is usually classified as the first 6 to 18 months after onset. I also remember you saying you developed Peyronies Disease after trauma at around age 24. Does this mean you were using VED's some 50 odd years ago? Because i think i remember you saying you had a radical prostate surgery back in 1995, and started using VED for ED purposes? In that case, you and your uro wern't specifically using VED for Peyronies Disease but for ED? It just came as a positive side effect that you had curvature improvement?

[Old Man]

wayne999:

I guess my statements got mixed up in the translation. The VED was not available in the 1950s as far as I know or at least it was not made known to me at the time. Most treatments then consisted only of huge quantities of vitamin E and Potabo.

After the radical surgery in 1995, all of the other methods of "treatment" were tried before the VED was introduced to me. None of the pills, physical therapy by hand manipulation, or the penile Verapamil injections helped. An Osbon Classic (two separate piece VED connected by a hose) was prescribed by my uro. This one was used until the Osbon Esteem one piece unit was made available to me at half price. The Esteem model was the "workhorse" model that produced the best results for me.

Yes, the VED was first used in 1995 by me for ED as well as therapy for Peyronies Disease. The restrictor rings were only applied after an erection with the VED for sexual activity. No rings are ever used for Peyronies Disease therapy with a VED, so be sure to remember that.

Old Man

[Hawk]

Wayne,

Your question assumes that there is only  one "Active Phase" to a patients Peyronies Disease.  This is a misconception.  Many men experience many active phases of Peyronies Disease progression in their lives.  It is common enough that one could ask if it is typical.

Old Man has chronicled several active bouts with Peyronies Disease over his 50 year struggle.    

[Lazer]

Hello,  I have 2 questions.
 Q1. on the 26 week protocol, I have individual cylinders. Many recommend 10-20 minutes per day. If you inflate for 10 seconds, deflate for 10 seconds and do it 10 times , that is less than 4 minutes. What am I missing? Should you deflate for only a few seconds or for 10? 20? 30?  would 30 seconds inflate and 15 seconds deflate be a good program? How do you fill the 20 minutes?

Q2. I already have a 1.5, 1.75, and 2.25.  Should I replace the 2.25 with the recommended 2.0?  

thanks
Lazer

[Old Man]

lazer:

I don't think that you should go to the trouble of getting/making a 2.0 inch cylinder. The 2.25 inch one you have is not that much larger overall.

Just reviewed the separate cylinder VED protocol and it is considered ample for directions on how to use your VED. Just use each separate cylinder exactly as stated for each week's schedule as shown in the table of weeks by the letter.

The amount of time that you do the workout each day would depend on how well you tolerate the vacuum pressure without causing problems such as pain or discomfort in any form. My exercise regimen each day lasted anywhere from 10 minutes to 20 based on how my daily schedule allowed.

This is the way that I did the cycles: pumped up to a comfortable level of vacuum, held the vacuum for about 10 to 15 seconds, released the pressure while continuing to keep a tight seal around the base of my penis. Then repeated this cycle over and over for the entire period of time allotted for that day's exercise.

This is,, in a way, a bit modified from the protocol, but each person can vary his procedure to suit his individual needs, etc. Just basically stay on the prescribed method and weekly schedule by the lettered cylinder for that week.

Since you are using the separate cylinder models of VEDs, you can use your best judgment as to what you desire from the vacuum therapy base on the time you have available each day.

Should you have further questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Old Man

[shendo]

I am new to this forum, and am not sure whether I am posting correctly, but Does anyone have any experience with Penile Extension Devices in Peyronies Disease treatment?

[wayne999]

What do people think about this:

"Men with Peyronies Disease (acquired penile curvature) or congenital penile curvature, with significant degrees of curvature should be discouraged from using a vacuum device as the straight cylinder may exert significant stress on the curved penis resulting in trauma to the already bent shaft of the penis".

http://www.cornellurology.com/sexualmedicine/ed/vacuum.shtml

This is something I was alluding to when i was asking about if forcing the curved penis to be straight would result in other trauma/plaques being formed.

[Angus]

  This article is representative of standard indications and suggestions concerning VED's and where they may be helpful. Concerning congenital curves, the article somewhat agrees with what we've been saying on the forum: the VED MAY result in stress and trauma by straightening an already bent penis. Further down, the article does say "...and if used in a proper fashion no long-term negative effects will have occurred." The key word is PROPER FASHION. The article mentions a max vacuum of -200-250 mm Hg. This is why you read so much in the forum about safety and going easy and slow with the VED. The forum can show you where to buy VED's, how to make them and provides a safe method of use for them. The forum cannot supervise an individuals use of the VED. There is no control over how much an individual pumps that the forum can go by... it may be not enough, or may be too much. An individual may buy a VED, pump it up way too much and turn red and swollen then post here that the VED is the worst and should be avoided. We have no way of knowing what conditions preceded individual accounts of VED results unless the poster uses the written word well and describes exactly the conditions under which the VED was used.
  We can present the VED and it's use to help Peyronies. The decision to use a VED is the individuals. An individual must decide for himself whether he can use a VED responsibly enough to not put unreasonable stress on the penis whether it's used for ED or Peyronies. Again, I can't say anything about congenital curves because I don't know. But I can say that anyone who makes the decision to use the VED really has no choice but to follow the guidelines of responsible use.

[Old Man]

Note to all:

I echo Angus' comments about the Cornell article. Some months ago, I was in contact with Dr. John Mulhull who, at that time was on the urology board of the college. (He may still be on the urology board for all I know at present).  He and I discussed the use of VEDs in various atmospheres and we came to the mutual conclusion that VEDs, if properly used, can and will help with Peyronies Disease symptoms. (Whether or not he still holds to that conclusion or not is not known by me at this time.)

As Angus states in his post below, the individual is in complete control of how he uses a VED. None of us on the forum have the exact same penis. Each individual has different skin, some thick, some thin, some sensitive and others tough, etc. So, there is no way that anyone of this or any forum can present the actual way a VED is used by that individual. Vacuum pressure used is relative to each individual, so be aware of what your own limits are and adhere to them safely. You are hereby forewarned again as to proper VED usage and get the facts before embarking into VED therapy.

It has been stated from the get go on this and other forums that I have posted on that caution is the watch word in VED usage. Bottom line to this whole VED scenario is that each individual must be the judge of what is the right and proper way to approach VED therapy. We can only suggest that the protocol that is posted in the VED section of the Child Boards be followed to the letter and with caution even then.

The above carries my usual caveat that they are simply my personal opinions formed after many years of experience with and without VED usage.

Old Man

[wayne999]

  This article is representative of standard indications and suggestions concerning VED's and where they may be helpful. Concerning congenital curves,

Angus:
It said congenital curves OR Peyronies Disease. I appreciate all the stuff you're saying about pressure etc. but the article seems to allude to the fact that bending of ANY curved penis in the cylinder is not a good thing.

[Angus]

  Well, like my dad used to say... once all is said and done, there's nothing left to say or do.
  I answered with thoughts about Peyronies VED use and made no comment about congenital curves because I have no information about that. One can read anything one wants on the internet; you can't surf or Google Peyronies without tripping over article after  article. After years of research and reading though, one has to make up ones mind as to which to believe. You'll have to decide for yourself how to proceed.  

[Tim468]

I echo Angus' comments, Wayne.

You are not going to "figure this out" - you are going to have to take steps. We are discussing doing something (using the VED) that has helped more of us than most treatments. We for the most part know if we have congenital or acquired curvatures. It is not complicated - try it or don't try it (and there are plenty here who have not tried it). But it is not that complicated.

I posted a case report about two years ago about someone GETTING Peyronie's Disease after using the VED. But I would like to point out that he used it at a vacuum pressure that was about 40 times more negative than any of us use. But if you look hard enough, you will always find something positive and negative about these treatments.

Tim

[Iceman]

OLDMAN - my relatively new VED from Fitzz just broke - its only 3months old and I doubt I can return it etc due to not being in the USA - can you recommend a VED thats not battery powered and will be a bit more sturdy as I always knew that this would break one day.

cheers

[Old Man]

Iceman:

Sorry to hear that the unit broke down. I do not recommend for anyone to purchase the battery powered models for the reason they do break easily. The manual pumps are very much more durable. I can't remember where you purchased the unit, but try to get them to honor any warranty first. If it is an Augusta Medical unit, they should have some outlet in your country to help. Also, contact the Fitzz company and ask what they can do to help.

I have not clue as to what the warranty might be from Fitzz. Augusta requires their warranties to be activated by the user before they will honor them. That is, once a unit is put into service, the user should send in the card or activate by call or internet.

The Vitality OTC Plus model from Fitzz seems to be the best unit out there now.  You should go to their web site and check it out if you do have to buy another one.

Let me know what I can do to help further.

Old Man

[Iceman]

OLDMAN:

do you mean this:

http://www.fitzz.com/Vitality-Ultra-Ease-Manual-OTC-Vacuum-Therapy-Device_p_1981.html

cheers

[Old Man]

Iceman:

No, the one I suggest is the Vitality OTC Plus three cylinder manual model, cost= $229.99 with free shipping and handling.

Open the home page of Fitzz website, locate sexual health link the left column, find the link to the men's sexual products. It will/should bring up the page of the OTC model. You may have to look at several links to reach the right one.

This is the one that several guys on the forum have purchased and are using.

Old Man

[Iceman]

Hi OLDMAN - sorry to pester you but the Augusta one that I emailed you the link on is half the price - id there anything wrong with this model  - whats the benefit of using the fitzz product over the cheaper product - i guess its $229 vs $109..

many thx

[Old Man]

Iceman:

No problem, glad to help. The difference is that the Ultra Ease has only the one large cylinder and cannot be used for the 26 week protocol which calls for the three cylinders.

The Vitality model is basically the same as the much higher priced Somaerect VED. And, the price is less one half the price of the Somaerect. I suppose that you could use the one cylinder model for therapy, but with lessor results and could take longer, etc.

Again, I recommend the Vitality model over the Ultra.

Old Man

[mikemck]

If you want to order the unit from Fitzz, you can receive a 10% discount by using the coupon code "TEAM".

I just ordered one as my first action to do something  about my Peyronies Disease other than wish it wasn't so.

I really appreciate the information and community here.

[Jim.55]

Old Man and others:

I have lurked here for a few years.  This is my first post, so forgive me if I am not following proper protocol or posting under the wrong discussion.

I have two questions:

1 – Assume someone has congenital curvature.  Does it generally show up as a child and remain the same, or does it worsen with age ?  I had mild curvature as a teenager, but now at age 43 it is worse.  I would say it has progressed steadily over the years.

2 – What group in Birmingham is conducting a trial with VEDs ?

Thanks.

[Old Man]

Jim55:

First, quit lurking and join in with your posts. (Just kidding of course!) But, you do need to lend your experience to the forum. The more information posted here helps others in a way that we may not know if one does not post.

Congenital curvature has been a mystery to men since the beginning of recorded medical history. There seems to be no solution or answers as to why some children are born with it and others develop it during early childhood. Who knows!

If you have no pain with curvature, can still have normal sex and nothing else doesn't work properly, you most likely have nothing to worry about. Just throwing this in, but do get your prostate checked on a regular basis. As you reach older ages, the prostate must be kept healthy as well as your body health.

At 43, you are beginning the "downhill" side of life and more and more problems with your body are going to enter the picture. You should get regular medical checkups for overall medical problems. Preventive medicine is far more appropriate than remedial medicine.

Anyway, again if you are not experiencing problems with your penile curvature, just do watchfull waiting and get regular physicals.

Regards, Old Man

[Jim.55]

Old man:

I am a relatively healthy person, regular physicals, etc.  The curvature is about 45'.  It does not interfere with anything, but if a VED or something else might help I would give it a try.  My wife made a really ugly comment about it a couple years ago and I can't seem to get over it.

I saw a doctor at Vanderbilt in Nashville.  He "prescribed" the VED device from Augusta (at the time was available only by prescription).  I didn't give it a chance really, but I still have the device.  At the time I was unaware of congenital curvature.

On another note, I'm trying to figure out what causes or risk factors exist for fibrosis generally.  I note that I have increased tendonitis with age.  To me it stands to reason that if soft connective tissue easily becomes irritated in joints and such that it can happen in the penis as well.  So, I'm trying to solve the mystery of fibrosis, including examining the use of systemic enzymes.

[Old Man]

Jim.55:

Well, sometimes wives can be on the rough side when it comes to the sex issue. They just don't seem to want to talk about it. I know the feeling somewhat as mine does not like to discuss sex much either. She has had no problems with my using the VED either for Peyronies Disease exercises or going for sex.

If you curve is truly congenital and has not increased very much since early on in life, you might not want to use VED therapy. It won't do any harm though if done with moderation and careful use. We urge caution in just about every post about VED use that it should be approached with extreme caution no matter what. Fibrosis in one's penis does present a problem at any rate, so we all should try some method of reducing it, whether it be oral meds/supplements or vacuum therapy. VED therapy has helped many guys on and off this forum, so you might want to consider picking up where you left off and persue another course of action with it. At least, you will be keeping your penis more healthy with the better blood flow provided with vacuum therapy.

Let me know which exact model Augusta VED you have. If you have the old Osbon Esteem model, I can help you develop a protocol for using it. If you have the newer model Soma Correct or Somaerect, the protocol is listed in the Child Boards section of the home page on the main forum.

I will be glad to help in any way.

Old Man

P.S. I forgot me mention the group in Birmingham that is doing some trials with the three cylinder VEDs. Their address is:  Chris Spivey, P.A.
Urology Centers of Alabama, P.C. – Birmingham  You can do a google search to get phone numbers and other info. Chris is the woman in charge of the trials and she would be able to give you all the information.

[jackp]

Jim55
I was using the VED all wrong and had basically given up on it.
After a failed implant last October I found this forum and Old Man got me started on the right way to use the VED. That is coming up on a year now and have gained back about 1/2". Dr. at Vanderbilt said that was all I could get back because of the peyronies scar on top of my penis.
To complicate things I have corporal fibrosis from trying shots for ED. I have venous leakage also so the shots did little to no good. Stay away from shots for ED.
The other result of proper VED exercise is I now have a healthier penis. Even though I am 100% impotent my penis now feel normal.
Follow Old Man's protocol for the VED you have. It will take time to make a difference but you will be glad you did.
Jackp

[Jim.55]

Old Man and Jackp:

Thanks for your input.  I have the exact 3 cylinder device touted in messages below.  I am a patient at Urology Centers of Alabama, P.C., although I have not been there in years.  I think I will go back and consult with them before resuming the VED.

Now, folks, I have an interesting and weird question that is likely to lead to some discussion and disagreement.  How many of us with Peyronie's have had a vasectomy ?  If this is not the appropriate folder, let me know what is.  I had an experience that is almost indescribable, but I will try if anyone is interested.

Old Man – I do have a LOT of information and experience with male issues that might be helpful to those on this forum.  You are right.  I need to share that information as difficult as it may be.

[crazybrab]

Wayne 999,

I'm posting my response to the 'histories/introduce yourself' thread here as it is more appropriate in the VED section.

I've seen a few urologists, some stated a VED would be un-natural, potentially dangerous, others had no comment. I recently visited a Urologist and extensively discussed VEDs with him. I've been greatly influenced by his opinion.

1. VEDs are, potentially dangerous and he has treated more than one case of VED-induced vascular ED.

2. As stated on this board by others, venous, low-oxygen blood is drawn in, serving very little purpose.

3. Exercising the penis by applying negative pressure is very un-natural and does not serve as a 'penis gym'. It stretches, un-naturally, the penis, which then returns to its former state. He provided a great example. Patients who require physical rehab after injury.They are not attached to some automated device that would repetitively stretch/move a limb. Instead, patients undergo physiotherapy where they have to take the initiative, give it the effort, and make their body parts move again. The will to overcome must come from within, and I see this is no different for penile injuries.

I endorse the concept of penile expansion/tunica stretching following injury, I just feel the process should be initiated from within, in a more natural way.

I have had great success in softening my plaque with regular, prolonged massage using cocoa butter. Following the instructions of my doctor, (no g/f at minute), I masturbate at least bi-daily to ensure regular expansion of the tunica/penis and further promote stretching of areas with plaque.

I maximise the blood flow to my penis by using between 25-50mg of sildenafil citrate during each exercise session. The usually produces an excellent erection during which I can feel slight tension in my penile plaque as it stretches.

I am somewhat lucky that my penis hinges to one side near the base of my penis, resulting in a straight, albeight, severely angulated penis. Further, my age plays in my favour, hopefully allowing the body to heal from within, as opposed to using any external devices.

Whilst in psychiatric care, I learnt self-hypnosis and other methods how to help over-ride subconscious processes within the body. I'm trying to develop these further and thats why I believe I'm having an excellent response to my efforts to repair from within.

I dont discount the eventual therapeutic use of a VED, I just believe repair initiated from within could produce better results in my case.

Old Man, Angus et al., I've read the entire VED board, many words of wisdom and much to be learnt, but a VED might be just a bit too premature for me!
God bless, and good luck!

[crazybrab]

I just wanted to add:

I'm not trying to discredit VEDs at all, I just believe medicine has made progress and that it should be possible to intiate penile 'stretching' forces from within. The VED came before PDE5 Inhibitors, but with their arrival, I think its time, that in certain instances, one reconsiders the use of a VED.

PDE5 Inhibitors lead to smooth muscle relaxation in blood vessels supplying the corpus Cavernosum, resulting in increased blood flow and an erection. Hence, there is more blood flowing into the penis through arteries. One has then got some four hours odd, to stimulate onself sufficiently and produce very rigid erections and stretch penile plaques and oxygenate the penis.

Yes it is more time-consuming than a VED, but I'm happy to give it the time. If one has some degree of erectile capacity that can be helped with PDE5 inhibitors, the penis could in theory expand sufficiently for therapeutic purposes.

Normal erections alone may not be rigid enough to promote maximum penile expansion due to presence of plaques, but a PDE5 inhibitor will hopefully give that extra 'push' similar to the VED a therapeutically stretch a penis with plaques.

Guys who have rigid erections (no ED) probably wont increase the rigidity of their erections, those with severe impotence probably wont benefit either.

Anyway, this is all my opinion, and so far I've had great success. Food for thought!

[Old Man]

Angus:

Do you want to address crazybrab's comments about the VED or do you want me to??

From his posts, one can gather where he came up with his user I.D.

Old Man

[Angus]

  Welcome to the forum. I hope your plan of treatment has positive results, and I hope you keep us informed of how things progress. Healing from within is always the best way until there are no other options and one must recruit a little help.
  I understand your uros thoughts on the VED, but I wonder what his thoughts are based on whether they be experiences of patients or something else. When someone makes broad statements as you describe, I would really like to know how he came to those conclusions.
  VED's potentially dangerous? You bet they are. They are not a toy and not an entertainment device. They must be used in a responsible manner, and this manner and regimen referred to on this forum represents years and years of use by trial and error by many men and helpful urologists. This regimen has helped many men return from the dark side of Peyronies Disease. The VED will not help all men, but the men represented here who were helped by it got their results with careful, studied use of the VED with an applied regimen. If a man bought a VED, took it home and pumped up a whanger the size of the Hindenburg, you bet there's going to be consequences, and not good ones. There have been discussions about the use of a VED in the early, inflamed stage of Peyronies Disease, but solutions to this have been found based on easy pumping and time limits.
  Venous blood being drawn in serving no purpose... I disagree. The VED can be thought of as a re-modeling device. The blood pressure within a VED under vacuum can be greater than natural blood pressure provided by ones own body, but with studied use is not extreme. Penile tissues are stretched laterally and longitudinally and some of us agree that remodeling takes place because of this induced pressure.
  "Exercising the penis by applying negative pressure is very un-natural and does not serve as a 'penis gym"... I'm not sure where to start with that. Vacuum induced erections are not produced by body blood pressure and so could be thought of as un-natural in that respect. The small VED tube that holds a curved erection in a straight manner could be considered un-natural in the sense that a curved penis is being held in an un-natural straight state. But then, the penis USED to be straight, so the VED is reminding the penis what direction it's supposed to point. I think his reference to a "penis gym" is rather cynical and I would dismiss that as a whimsical comment. I would like to know how much the uro has read about VED use in regards to Peyronies Disease. I would like to know if he has searched out the facts about men who have successfully used the VED and gained positive results and got a straighter penis.
  Crazybrab I respect the fact that you've gone to the doctor and a urologist and are being active in finding a fix for your situation. I also understand that you've got other things going on in your life. I truly hope that the things you try have positive results for you. Post and let us know if the things you try have results of any kind and how you feel it's going for you.
  I'm not trying to out-logic you or argue. You must decide which direction you want to move. If you think the VED is a bit premature for your situation, go with that and do what you described. Let us know how you are doing. Just remember there are too many men, myself included, who have used and succeeded with the VED to discount it as a "penis gym" and when someone refers to a VED with cynicism and probably unsubstantiated statements regarding its safety, I'm going to jump on that pretty quickly. I truly hope you find some answers. We're all writing the book here... let us know how things go and add your own page.
 
   

[crazybrab]

Angus,

Thanks for welcoming me to the forum, Its great to have access to such a wealth of information.

I'm not trying to out-logic anyone. I'm just adding my two cents worth and how I've been influenced by Uros.

I've read yours and Old Mans' VED posts and very nearly ordered a VED myself based on this forum alone, but for the time of being, I'm holding back.

My uro in the Czech Republic is the country's best, and he has an excellent knowledge of work by Levine and others. He works strictly in the private sector now. For the reasons outlined before, he does not recommend VED, but neither does he recommend surgery or some expensive drugs. He seems a pretty genuine guy and for the time of being, I'm going to go with the flow.

I'd also like to add one other concern I have about the VED. Angus, quite correctly, you state the VED models and stretches tissue in the Penis. The entire penis is subject to a vacuum, including all the delicate/complicated parts below the tunica. In the short term, the penis is remodelled, but I cant help but think that over the long-term ie. many years of use of the VED for maintenance/re-modelling the penis, there may be other side effects.

There are no studies to the best of my knowledge looking at chronic use of a VED for therapeutic reasons. Being a young guy (23), I just dont know how remodelling tissue with a VED could effect me 20-30 years down the line. I've already got pretty bad ED but I'm convinced once I stretch the plaque from within, my penis will once again engorge to previous levels, stopping venous outflow and massively improving my ED.

PDE5 Inhibitors produce erections of equal rigidity to those I had before penile trauma so I'm not stretching tissue beyond its natural limits, whereas with the VED, even if you don't feel pain, to what extent is the tissue really being (over)stretched?

Does the VED merely stretch existing tissue, or does it make cells multiply and grow in a healthy, long-term sustainable way? That is the $1m question and if someone can prove the latter is true, then I'll order my VED immediately and eat everything I previously said.

Crazybrab

BTW Old Man, I use Crazybrab as my user ID on pratically every forum on the web, its something I came up with during my crazy teenage years and I'm too used to it to change it!

My ideas are crazy, but as we all know, to beat peyronies one has got to go that extra mile.

[Angus]

  I appreciate your uros approach. I truly hope it works, even a little bit, and has some positive results for you. I understand your concern with remodeled tissue via VED down the road 20 or 30 years. Old Man may comment on that as he has used the VED for many, many years and might have the best view on that subject. I've used it for 5 or so years with no adverse effects, but I know your interest is in the extreme long term. As you know, there is an extreme lack of documentation on legitimate VED use for Peyronies Disease, but there should be a LOT of information about the long term use of VED's for erectile dysfunction as men have been using them for years for ED. Again Old Man will have a handle on this and be able to add to the discussion.
  There is much mis-understanding and outright fear of the VED out there re: too much vacuum, damage, un-natural wierd erections and so forth. Plus there are lots of men that just don't want to put their penis in a clear tube and pump vacuum into it. For these plus other reasons there are men that will never pick up and use a VED and I'm fine with that and I'm not going to drive the subject in to the ground and try to talk them in to a VED. I can discuss the fears some men have with a VED especially when men have mis-conceptions about the VED and its use.
  Regarging the question "Does the VED merely stretch existing tissue, or does it make cells multiply and grow in a healthy, long-term sustainable way?" You have it right... that's a million dollar question. I vote for merely stretching tissue, but I'm unqualified to really answer that. I don't know if new cells grow in place of where damage was, but I think not. The cell structure of plaque and scar tissue may change but as far as expansion of mass, I don't think so.
  Since there is such a dearth of research and money spent on Peyronies Disease, we're going to ask a LOT of questions on this forum that have no research or studies and answers. You present interesting questions... stick around and discuss these things with us. Sometimes a question doesn't get an answer 'til its kicked around the field a while.  

[seaside2]

I haven't posted for a while, but thought that it might be of some interest to note my personal progress using the VED. I have used the three tube VED and the 26 week protocol for about 3 months now.

Some good news   is that the curve is lessening, the plaque feels softer (psychlogical?), erections somewhat stronger, urine stream easier (I noted earlier that my use of Flomax had stopped).

The bad news:  :(no enlargement at all. That's ok, I think in time it may help.
In the meantime, I am going for my annual physical and will try to talk my GP into pentox.

BTW, it does take a little time to get into the habit and routine of using the VED. Takes 20 minutes or so including clean up, but it beats spending 2 hours sitting around griping about it!

[Hawk]

Welcome,

I am about as neutral as anyone on the forum concerning the VED.  In fact is was probably my post suggested by my Sexual Dysfunction Uro that you refer to concerning oxygen depleted venous blood.

In my humble opinion, I think your uro makes a few good points and your logic has some sound basis.
I do think the analogy of physical therapy, penis gyms etc is a very flawed analogy that disregards science and reason however.  The penis is not a voluntary muscle that can be exercised in any way that is comparable to a voluntary muscle in physical therapy or a gymn.  In general terms the penis is specialized tissue requiring oxygen and healthy expansion to maintain penile health.  On a biochemical or cellular level it is more complex.  The only questions that arise from your post are:

1.  Is blood from a VED well oxygenated? I know of no one that has ever attempted to test the O2 levels of natural erections compared to VED erections.  One can assume VED's draw venous blood but that is assumption. One can as easily assume that arterial blood locked in a natural erection for 30 minutes becomes less oxygenated than VED blood drawn in and expelled 10 times over a 20 minute period.  One can assume that the venous valves prevent the venous blood from back-flowing and that arterial blood is drawn in. It is all assumption.  What is not assumption is that there are no reports here of damage by a VED other than a guy who reportedly had a GF far over pump his penis with a motorized non-medical VED to see if she could make it reach the end of the tube for her recreational amusement.  Many men have reported success.

2. How does a natural erection compare to a VED for tissue stretching.  The 3 cylinder attempts to stretch in a corrective direction.  A natural erection cannot do that.  A VED might be able to do that.  With a VED you have absolute control over the pressure so you can apply less than natural pressure, natural pressure, or more than natural pressure.  Suggesting a vacuum is unnatural makes no sense to me.  Natural erections are caused by pressure inside of the penis being greater than outside of the penis. This greater internal pressure is blood under pressure.  The erection results from increasing internal pressure over external pressure.  A VED reduces external pressure and results in greater pressure inside of the penis than outside of the penis.  The increased internal pressure inside of the penis is blood under greater pressure.  For a uro to pretend to know of some valid subtle difference to penile tissue without giving a study, or scientific research is just plain assumption and substituting poor analogies for science.

Hawk

[Old Man]

Crazybrab:

In your posts you mentioned that long term usage caused damage to one's penis. As others has have posted facts that I would have stated in this post, I will not repeat them here.

I have been using three different model VEDs for way over 13 years now with no ill effects to my most prized possession. There were times when the VED therapy was first started that I overpumped the pressure with some minor skin irritations, but they were soon healed and therapy resumed with no further damage.

The VED has been the most viable solution for me for erections due to a non nerve sparing radical retropubic prostatectomy in April 1995. The VED was prescribed shortly after that when all other methods of achieving erections failed. Peyronies Disease re-occurred and I along with help from my uro developed a separate one cylinder regimen for the old Osbon Esteem VED. It took about 6 to 9 months to completely rid my penis of the curves and plaque/nodules. Some of this occurred during the Verapamil injections for the Peyronies Disease which totally failed.

So, bottom line is this, as far as anyone on this forum knows myself included, my experience with the VED therapy has gone on longer than anyone else here. I know of no plausible reason that any uro worth his salt can state for a fact that VED therapy is not a viable treatment for Peyronies Disease not to mention ED.

The above is based on my over 50 years of Peyronies Disease which first developed at the age of 24 and the many trial and errors trying to find some treatment for my Peyronies Disease along with ED during that time. There are many on this forum that will support my position on the VED simply because they have used it themselves and know for a fact that the protocol with the three cylinder VED when used with caution and in moderation can and will work to relieve one of Peyronies Disease symptoms.

Old Man

[terryd]

old man  got a ?  would it hurt to pump up for sex if you got Peyronies Disease.i can get up but not for long would Shir like to finish once.been on ved about 18 month 1/2 on home made ved witch i broke 2 times so bought fizz 3 clyinder other than being tapered it works fine money well spent.size has in proved curve comes and goes started withabout 45 degree.was down about 30 to 35 the harder i pump the worse the bend iv learnt to slow down(less presher)and it is easier to maintan what iv gained hope to keep gaining.thank you

[Old Man]

terryd:

You did not give me all the facts about how you pump for sex and whether or not you have to use a restrictor ring to hold up the erection. But, I will list the procedure that I use when going for an erection with the VED. As far as I know, there are no restrictions on using a VED for erections with Peyronies Disease if you do not experience any pain or discomfort when you pump up and use a restrictor ring to hold it up.

Since you have the three cylinder Fitzz unit, you do have a real good quality VED. Now, what I would suggest when you desire to use the VED for erections for sex is quite simple. You use only the large cylinder (C if it is lettered, unless you are small and need to use the B medium cylinder). If you have to use a restrictor ring to hold up the erection, (which you will if you cannot maintain a natural one), lubricate the outside mouth of the cylinder fairly well, lubricate the restrictor ring, then stretch it over the mouth of the cylinder and place it near the edge of the cylinder mouth. Lubricate the large sizing insert and inside of the mouth as far up as you can reach with a finger. Lubricate your penis somewhat so that it slides easily inside the cylinder.

Then once you have acquired a good tight seal around the base of your penis, start pumping up pressure slowly until you have acquired an erection hard enough for sex, (do not pump too high as the pressure tends to build up after the ring is slid off onto your penis) then slide the ring off the cylinder onto the shaft of your penis while holding the entire VED tight against your body to preclude losing the vacuum.

Be careful to practice doing this several times to make sure you can do it without losing the pressure and can have a firm enough erection to complete the sexual activity. You may lose a small amount of feeling while using the restrictor ring if you leave it on too long. 30 minutes is the maximum time you should leave the restrictor on before relieving the pressure. If you have not reached a climax and/or orgasm within this 30 minute window, remove the restrictor ring, wait a few seconds. Then you can pump up again and start over.

Again, be extremely cautious that you do not overpump the vacuum pressure at any time, whether you are exercising with the protocol for Peyronies Disease or going for an erection for sex. Practice is the key to achieving a good erection using a VED.

Old Man

[terryd]

old man iv never pumped for sex before  and will have to use restrictor just woned to make shure its ok thank you

[Old Man]

terryd:

Yes, it is OK to use the restrictor ring when pumping up for sex. Just be careful to use one that does not fit too tight. There should be several rings that came with the VED. If not, you should try to get them because you will need one to hold up the erection.

Go back and read my post below to you about how to do the ring. Again, please be careful with this and practice using the ring several times to get the restrictor with the right amount of tension that you need. Too tight a ring can lead to problems that you do not need at this point. Practice, practice and more practice should be done before going all out with this procedure.

Caution is again the watchword when using any VED whether it is for Peyronies Disease or for ED.

Old Man

[Tim468]

I use Cialis daily at a low dose (approx 7.5 mg nightly) and I use the VED. So I guess I got it coming and going...

A couple of points. I am not sure that the blood in the penis from using the VED is much "different" than that during an erection. Veins have valves that prevent backwards flow, so I do not see how the blood would be considered "venous" when using the VED. Instead, it is clearly arterial.. think of it as coming in from the artery but the venous drainage is "dammed" by the use of the vacuum.

I am not sure if blood is refreshed at all during an erection, but I suspect that it is. If it remained stagnant it would seem to be at risk of coagulation and/or severe hypoxemia. I think that the penis deals with it in two ways (though I am not sure of this!). First, oxygen consumption in the erect penis has to be low under normal erect conditions. Second, the "stored" oxygen in the corporal chambers may continue to release oxygen for a much longer time than in a capillary where the red cells line up and squeeze through one at a time. Since the blood cells are hanging out, and there is a lot of them, then I imagine that O2 delivery can continue to meet the needs of the tissue.

Whomever designed our bodies did a smart job of it - I trust it works right under normal conditions.

As far as I can tell, the erections I get with a VED are little different than those without one, with one exception - they are longer and straighter.

If you can go back to find my original posts on this topic, you will find many very cogent arguments as to why this would not work. I stopped posting those when I tried it the way I was told to, and it helped me.

Tim