ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[DannyOcean]

I have had the E2 Matrix product on order for over a month now and expect it to arrive within the next few weeks.  I really don't know how it will work, but I will try it and report back.  What I can tell you is that I found Rico's tip about taking Arginine with a carbohydrate food very helpful.  I have tried that (a small bowl of fruit) yesterday with some Arginine HCI and that was the first time that the Arginine really seemed to kick in with a vengeance.  My veins became unusually dilated and I suddenly felt a burst of energy that enabled me to reach and maintain a treadmill pace that was significantly uncomfortable before.   The next step will be the E2 Matrix product, I will keep you informed.

Hey George.  I was able to find the E2 Matrix product in stock at a1nutritionproducts.com tonight and ordered a couple of bottles.  I'm going to switch over to a capsule of this 2x/day once my current arginine supply runs out.  Thanks for tipping me off to it.

[csup]

I am going to see a new Uro on Monday, and would like to talk to him about the PAV "cocktail". Can anyone tell me what doses they are taking for this trio. Thanks.
crs

[Rico]

csup,

I don't take it but this is is the dose being recommended by Dr. Lue......400mg pentox x 3 daily, viagra 25mg x 1 at bedtime and arginine 500mg x 3 daily pentox and arginine should be taken at morning noon and night....

Rico

[Rico]

csup,

I just went to my Urologist last Friday.... I went to the APDA web site and click on to the SMSNA site there, I put in peyronies in the search engine and found a report from the AUA conference in 2005 on pentox/arginine/viagra or pde5 and pde4 inhibitors.... technical report....written by doctors for doctors...

I also brought in some Q&A from Dr. Levine on Pentox and then download his profile from the APDA site...

I brought in the Spivey report from Alabama on the VED and the 26 week protocol.....

I also brough in the front page of this forum and how to come here and read on real people with peyronies and get some good information...

I found a couple things about Dr. Lue and the one report on pentox also and Dr. Lue's profile....

He(my doctor)was against VED and Viagra ect, now he is becoming a believer......I have both that he prescribe, plus he is doing research on the pentox(he did say this can't harm you).... I haven't made the choice that I need it yet....my blood flow is good from ginkgo and Opc's at this time....and haven't come to the conclusion that gingko isn't doing the same thing.... my gut is that pentox delivers a bigger punch....

It will much easier for you to hand him a folder with all the programs laid out, I even high lighted all the pentox portions for him...

It help me and I thought like Steve  said, I'm ringing the bell:)...

God Bless..

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico,

Good pro-active move!  That is always a good approach, and it would probably be good if we put together such a packet in our "Resource Library" area so members could print off and take to their doctor.

[misterb]

I made it to Chicago and my appointment with Dr. Levine. I feel like I'm in good hands now, this guy is the real deal. My new regimen is Pentox/Cialis/Arginine.  

[Rico]

Like Steve said, you are ringing the bell....thank you...

Can you misterb tell us more......how much pentox and cialis, what's your condition, are you mild <30 degrees 30-60 moderate or 60> degree....how long you have had peyronies ect....

This information for the peyronie brothers who can't get a first hand doctor is the most valuable information they can get....thank you and God Bless you....

Rico

[csup]

Rico,
Thanks for the great input. I definitely will look into that site and copy info to show my doc. I was already going to tell him about this fantastic website, but your idea to copy the front page is good.

I wanted to know dosage levels as I had tried Viagra a few years ago for a temporary ED condition, but they gave me a severe headache and plugged up sinuses within 15 minutes of taking them. Threw them out after the second attempt. Luckily my condition at the time was mental and not a physical condition. I don't remember the strength, so I am a bit leary about the 25mg dose. Will just review this all w/ the doc I guess, and see what he says. Thanks again everyone for all your support and help.
crs

[DannyOcean]

Rico,

Good pro-active move!  That is always a good approach, and it would probably be good if we put together such a packet in our "Resource Library" area so members could print off and take to their doctor.

This would be awesome.  I'd love to see it include some evidence related to the VED as I'm planning to see my uro again soon and want to pitch him on that.  Old Man, you might be the best person to help with that?

[DannyOcean]

Rico,
Thanks for the great input. I definitely will look into that site and copy info to show my doc. I was already going to tell him about this fantastic website, but your idea to copy the front page is good.

I wanted to know dosage levels as I had tried Viagra a few years ago for a temporary ED condition, but they gave me a severe headache and plugged up sinuses within 15 minutes of taking them. Threw them out after the second attempt. Luckily my condition at the time was mental and not a physical condition. I don't remember the strength, so I am a bit leary about the 25mg dose. Will just review this all w/ the doc I guess, and see what he says. Thanks again everyone for all your support and help.
crs

As an FYI, I've had no adverse side effects with the 25 mg dosage.  I'd definitely give it a shot as my guess is you were probably on a higher dosage before.

[Old Man]

Danny Ocean:

As far as I know, there are no official clinical trials and/or studies completed at this time. There are some underway as I understand it. The one in Birmingham, Alabama, has not been reported out at this time. It is supposed to be studying quite a number of guys using the three cylinder VED.

If and when that study is completed and the results made public, then there might be one that could be taken to one's uro/MD when going for a consultation, etc.

For now, all we have is the testimonials of several guys on this forum as well as myself. Would be hard to explain to your uro about us without verifiable resuslts. But, by all means, tell him/her about the forum and ask that they log in and see the posts for themselves. I would be glad to email or phone them with my positive results with the VED.

Regards, Old Man

[Rico]

Dear forum members:

I would like to open a discussion on Ginkgo and pentox..... if anyone can tell me what they feel is similar or not about the two......  I think it would be nice for members and guest to have a alternative to pentox if they cannot afford or have access to it or medical help.... Thank you...

Rico

[misterb]

I'm taking 400mg of Pentox three times daily, 1g of Arginine daily, and 10mg of Cialis every other day for a month. Then I cut back the Cialis to 10mg twice a week for a month and then 5mg twice a week the third month. After that time, I go back for an evaluation. I'm not exactly sure how long I've had Peyronie's. I first noticed the curvature about 14-15 months ago. It's less than 30 degrees.  

[Rico]

misterb:

Thank you....I just started the cialias of 10mg every other day, and the arginine I have been taking, by chance I'm taking the same amount, and my thought was a loading dose then taper off, do you think this might be Levinve thoughts also?  For members and guest also can you break down the arginine in mg and how many times a day?

Thank you for the personal pm also....I will share with the members that Dr. Levine didn't mention VED....never brought it up....

Did he suggest misterb that you cut up 20mg of cilias?  And I believe the dose of pentox stayed the same through out the program?

Thank you so much for ringing the bell....

Rico

[misterb]

I've been taking 500mg of Arginine twice a day and he didn't suggest I do it any differently, he said nothing about loading and tapering off. I cut a 20mg Cialis in half (which isn't easy due to it's shape) and yes, the Pentox dosage remains the same throughout the three months.  

[Tim468]

Folks should recall that the studies with rats went for 45 days (a long experiment time for rats) and the case reports with men were for over two years! Pentox will help slowly if it helps at all (and it should). The rat data show *prevention* of lesions when pretreated in rats, and *reversal* of lesions when started after a lesion develops. BUt "long-standing" lesions are obviously difficult to study in rats (the model doesn't exist yet).

Tim

[Rico]

Dear forum members and guest:

I have been interested in the formula of pentox and a pde 5 inhibitor such as Viagra and cilias.....and arginine....

Oxygen suppresses TGF beta1  TGF B1 is a component of the immune system callled a cytokine.... if your immune system is out of whack, it keeps producing scar tissue...

Oxygen enhances the activity of phostaglandin E1....phostaglandin E1 is produced during a erection(pde5) by the muscles cells in the penis, it activates and enzyme which suppresses collagen(scar tissue/plaque)....

Strong erections at night give you the most oxygen rich blood and suppresses collagen....

Pentox is a delivery system of blood to your unit, it is the effect(oxygen that suppresses collagen)...if a delivery system of blood, such as ginkgo, exercise arginine, OPC's ect...circulation to your unit, then depending on your health would determine the effect equal to that of pentox.....

The ED part of the formula seems to me to be the most important part of the formula to duplicate at this level and myself I just started on cilias 10mg every two days....cilias having a fairly good dose for a 24 hour period....I have found from my reading and myself at 180lbs that 60mg of ginkgo taken three times a day with OPC's and lots of brisks walks and running have increase my circulation....

The only reason I'm writing on this is I feel some people don't have access to doctors and the money or resources to seek help, but I feel should be given the background of what the formula is about....if one was to get 20mg of cilias and cut in half and take ginkgo and arginine or start walking everyday for several miles....in many studies on pentox and ginkgo, this is one of the doctors suggestions.....

It is funny how we talked about the ED drugs and baby boomer's coming to peyronies rescue, I know believe that in the the formula the pde5 inhibitor is the key drug to have.....mix that with oxygen, it don't matter how it comes, walking, ginkgo, pentox...and nox(arginine) opc's(circulation), just more oxygen....oxygen runs everything, if you don't' believe that, put your head under water for three minutes.....

Oxygen rich environment will also promote your body to eliminate foreign material....


Don't forget to drink plenty of water also to help eliminate this material..

If money was tight for me....I would buy some cialis from Canada....arginine 500mg twice a day and ginkgo 60mg three times a day....along with a two mile walk, no smoking, and a half gallon of water a day.... good diet.... and VED multi cylinder, build your own if you have to and at least have a small and medium cylinder to start....

Rico

[George999]

Oxygen suppresses TGF beta1

But Rico, this study http://ajplung.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/272/1/L60 seems to directly contradict that statement.  Do you have any reference that supports it?

[Hawk]

Rico,

Based on what you are saying that; Pentox is just the vehicle that causes the blood to deliver the oxygen and that it is the oxygen that is the bottom line no matter what gets it there.

Would you then conclude that; A person with Peyronies Disease that has no trouble getting daytime and nighttime erections does not need pentox/arginine/viagra since their own system is delivering regular oxygen rich erections?  Would you say these natural erections will satisfactorily treat their Peyronies Disease by naturally getting rid of the TGFb1?  

Wouldn't this mean that 22 year old guys that get an erection 10 times every day and night would not ever develop Peyronies Disease?

[Rico]

George that study is a pulmonary study..... not the same article....I will send the study...

I stand by that statement 100% and can back it up..

Rico

[Rico]

Hawk I believe in many cases with men that have health issues many are cause by poor circulation.... pentox seems to be a good delivery taken three times a day, plus it does make the blood cells smaller to get into areas and cause more circulation....I believe billberry, opc's, ginkgo also promote blood flow...

If you have good insurance and a top notch doctor and can afford and have the resources and ability to take the pentox/pde5/arginine.... then this might be the right choice for you...

As a God fearing man I feel I need to help my brother with peyronies who might be on some island or village or doesn't have the means to get the Dr. Levine prescriptson....

I feel the affects of pentox can be achieved with other sources....I don't feel one can get the same punch from anything but what is on the market today for ED drugs....so like my post said, if you don't have the resources, ginkgo is cheap and I feel have the same effects(maybe not the punch) for pentox, and arginine at 500mg what you can afford, and get cilias or viagra ect... this is a must with a good quality VED with a medium of two cylinders to start..... We are not all privilege Americans or even some Americans with health care or resources and should have a choice, I have read articles that the choice for a alternative to pentox is ginkgo, ginkgo is the fifth biggest drug used in Europe....

Rico

[Rico]

http://www.impotenceforum.org/articles/imptence-231-1.html

George when you get to this site, first click on the site on the refresh, go to site, on right index go to article 231-1 html

Go to Erectile Dysfunction and Oxgyen Deprivation   www.impotenceforum.org  

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico,

I am just looking for an answer to my questions.  That post seemed to comment on several issues but not any that I specifically asked.  It would help me to understand you better if you numbered your answers.

Rico,

1. Based on what you are saying that; Pentox is just the vehicle that causes the blood to deliver the oxygen and that it is the oxygen that is the bottom line no matter what gets it there.

Would you then conclude that;

2. A person with Peyronies Disease that has no trouble getting daytime and nighttime erections does not need pentox/arginine/viagra since their own system is delivering regular oxygen rich erections?  

3. Would you say these natural erections will satisfactorily treat their Peyronies Disease by naturally getting rid of the TGFb1?  

4. Wouldn't this mean that 22 year old guys that get an erection 10 times every day and night would not ever develop Peyronies Disease?

[George999]

Rico,

Thanks for the confirming data!  What you have pulled together here is indeed fascinating stuff.  But PLEASE FIX THE LINK!  I think it would be easier if you would use cut and paste to insert your links and it would put an end to the 'spelling' errors.  But indeed this puts a lot into perspective.  The key seems to be that TGF-beta 1 levels are related to proper oxygen utilization and Pentox via its capability to make red blood cells more flexible allows increased oxygen to tissues that are oxygen starved thus reducing the production of TGF-beta 1 as a result of oxygen deprivation.  This is indeed an interesting insight into the way that TGF-beta 1 suppressors work.  I had just not made that connection before and kind of assumed that oh, here goes Rico again on an oxygen rant, but really you have done some good detective work here and come up with some good insights.  It gets my respect!

- George

[George999]

Rico, Hawk is hitting on some good points here.  Pentox does the job by helping oxygen carrying red blood cells make their way through damaged capillaries that normal red blood cells cannot penetrate.  Apparently there is some evidence that Ginkgo does something similar.  But exercise?  Granted, exercise is good and thoroughly oxygenates the blood and all that is a good thing in general and a good thing for Peyronies (I have seen its benefits personally).  But I don't think it can be compared to the effect of a true TGF-beta 1 inhibitor, be that Pentoxifylline or a work alike supplement.  And I can tell you that no supplement is going to have the punch of an engineered drug.  So while I think you got most of this right and introduced some valuable concepts (certainly some things that I learned from), I think on some points you are perhaps a bit astray.

- George

[Tim468]

There is no excuse for posting a bad link except when the link changes after it has been posted, or if your access to it is dependent on your computer domain (and you did not know that).

One merely goes to the page in question, and copies the banner with the address at the top of the page. It is easy:

http://www.impotenceforum.org/articles/impotence-231-1.html

I did not type a thing to get this here - I simply copied and pasted it.

[Rico]

Hawk,

You where a Policeman, you have to turn down the light a little:)...

OK boss here it goes, by the number(and you know I love you:)).

1. I believe that pentox delivery is effect to small limbs because it reduces ones blood cells in size to get to smaller capillaries, I had stated this once before in a post.... I was posted back saying that this had nothing to do with it and blood was deliver to the penis by large blood vessels, I think it was you who posted this....it was during the isn't that a fancy way of saying circulation or oxygen....

Can this be achieved with ginkgo and billberry, some think so.... also exercising the upper thighs is pr oven to increase blood flow to the penis by 25%.... doctors recommend walking....I believe Pilate's which focus on the groin and core also helps...

As far as pentox goes, yes I believe 100% it is the oxygen rich blood that the pentox delivers that is the benefit and because it is engineer to flow all day and proven effective is one of the best ways to deliver it, or maybe the best.....

2. Day time and night time erections......I don't believe anyone with a life has a hard on for twenty four hours, so this is a moot point to me, but I will answer the question....I believe the delivery of the pde5 and if you could handle the cilias makes a good choice for it produces phostaglandine E1 which activates a enzyme which in turns suppresses collagen, I believe this to be hard to duplicate and the engineering into this drug is state of the art and if you can't handle it you still have two other choices on the market, Viagra or levitra..I like the cialis because of the 24-36 hours it stays in your system.. a 22 year old man in excellent health with a mild case of peyronies might not need the same dose as a 60 year old man in poor health....

3. These questions to me seem to address the same topic, but here goes...

I think once again once someone has the trauma with the peyronies being physical and metal...the stress ect....You don't have natural erections, how can you call a bent dick natural, you have a underlying issue with your unit.... I do believe there are several cases of peyronies...one being a injury...plaque in one area, heals normal, inflammation stops and behind is a piece of scar tissue......the other is the immune system is out of whack, keeps producing scar tissue, whole tunica get infected with peyronies...multipile plaques ect...... also I see <30 degree as mild and 30> to 60 as serious and 60> as a whole different ball game and my prayers go out to them.....a 25% reduct to a man with 50 degrees can mean having sex again, but to a man with 85 degrees really has no  life enhancement effective, this of course if pain reduction isn't a factor....

4. a 22 year old man, I feel I have cover this issue......I will put a quick summation for you...

First I was given some poor men(brothers) without the resources to get as close to the formula and also for people who wanted to look into it and talk to there doctors understood what they were talking about..

I believe pentox has a proven track record, it is safe, and reasonable price, it has a excellent delivery system and will keep oxygen rich blood flowing to your unit if you take the medication as prescribed, if I wanted a more natural choice I would have to go with the Mayo Clinic study and pick ginkgo, can I say one is better than the other..well to me oxygen is oxygen....I believe this is the key behind dmso and the thacker, vacillator....billberry is good for the eyes, why, because it gets to the small blood vessels, so do OPC's makes the blood slippery..... all good:)!!  

I'm 100% that Viagra, Levitra and Cialis especially because you can take it and it will produce phostaglandin E1 and activate the enzyme that suppresses collagen for up to 36 hours....powerful stuff, Horny Goat Weed and Maca....they are plain crap compared to this.... apples and oranges, where pentox and ginkgo are more apples to apples in my opinion and studies I have read....

Arginine is a no brainier, but take on a moderate dose and cycle off once in awhile for a week or two, remember to eat rich foods in arginine also like peanuts....

Hawk I hope this helps answer the questions you asked me....

As always God Bless You...

Rico

[Rico]

Sorry I haven't copied or paste anything yet, I better learn how, it would make my life easier also, then I can just put the article there for you to decide...

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico,

Against the wall and assume the position!

Rico, we have such a communication gulf between us it is incredible, but like Everest, it is a challenge and I would like us to scale it just for the challenge.

I ask others to ignore this if you like, but I must try again.

This is my request.  I don't want paragraphs that I barely read.  I don't just want numbers with unrelated information.  I want one sentence answers to question #1.  Put down a 1, and then answer my question number 1 with NO MORE than 2 sentences, then go to my question #2.  At the end, AFTER you answer all the questions, if you want to sum it up with a few sentences to make yourself feel good, then do so.  I am interested in 4 simple answers to 4 simple questions?

Don' make me have you declared a hostile witness.

Seriously, if you think I am being unclear or contributing to this communication breakdown, then please let me know that in a seperate post or PM.

Rico,

1. Based on what you are saying that; Pentox is just the vehicle that causes the blood to deliver the oxygen and that it is the oxygen that is the bottom line no matter what gets it there.

Would you then conclude that;

2. A person with Peyronies Disease that has no trouble getting daytime and nighttime erections does not need pentox/arginine/viagra since their own system is delivering regular oxygen rich erections?  

3. Would you say these natural erections (that furnish much more blood than P/A/V) will satisfactorily treat their Peyronies Disease by naturally getting rid of the TGFb1?  

4. If you answered yes to number #3, wouldn't this mean that 22 year old guys that get an erection 10 times every day and night would not ever develop Peyronies Disease?

[Rico]

1. Yes

2. No I think they would benfit from more blood flow and from cilias

3. No same as above answer

4. No same as two and three...

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

I don't know if I buy into the whole getting erections prevents disease progression.  Way back along time ago when I was in top notch shape and did two sports in one season (cross country and soccer) I got daytime erections and my peyronies still got worse, or did it? Maybe our disease really isn't spreading, the scar or plaque we have is just shrinking and contracted and pulling the surrounding tissue tighter, hence we lose the flexibility.  I think it would be beneficialy to track progression with ultra sounds, for me I don't think my disease has spread, but has shrunk and contracted, my body is trying to heal the scar.

Rico for posting the bad link your sentence is 23 months probation, $1500 fine, and your to have no contact with the PDS(victim)  

[Hawk]

ComeBackid,

First, as far as I am concerned, I never said erections do prevent Peyronies Disease.  Nor, have I said they do not.  That is the discussion I am trying to conduct with Rico.  Next, I can not speak for all cases but Peyronies Disease scarring does not just contract.  It clearly spreads just like the keloids on the man's chest that began as an infected follicle (scarring/healing gone awry).  Surely you have seen the stunning photo in the PDS "Resource Library" that I am referring to.  My Peyronies Disease has hit various areas of my penis.  it first curved me down, then, up, then right, and now almost straight.  The straight is from progression, not healing or reversal.  The scarring began at an injection site near the base on the left side.  I eventually developed more scarring on the opposite side 2/3 of the way to the tip and I am positive it is not done.

Rico,
If your answer to:

2. Does a person with Peyronies Disease that has no trouble getting daytime and nighttime erections not need pentox/arginine/viagra since their own system is delivering regular oxygen rich erections?

is

2. No I think they would benefit from more blood flow and from cilias

then I reject your theory.  I have taken Viagra, Levitra, and Cialis at maximum dose, and at 25% dose per night for extended periods.  A 25% dose of Viagra without sexual stimulation has an undetectable increase in blood flow (if any).  If a person already gets solid, frequent, erections both day and night, that engorge him with blood, without stopping the progression, then an undetectable increase from cialis could have no benefit in my view.  If miniscule additional blood flow from small doses of cialis can make a difference, you have certainly failed to explain a rational theory to support your statement.  Rational thought is all I am interested in, not statements preceded with "I believe" followed by an unsupported statement.

For instance, if I were to say; I believe royal jelly, that makes the queen bee fertile, and makes her grow 6 times the size of a worker bee, will increase the size of your penis if mixed with DMSO and applied daily!  No one can even work with such a statement?  it is just a belief with no specific evidence, no fact, no theory.

Personal Note: It is easy for me to sound like I am picking on someone when I am picking an idea apart.  I have talked with Rico on the phone.  I have told several people in private (including my wife) that I was completely blown away by that conversation.  What a total gentleman and a pleasure to talk to.  To chat with Rico is to instantly like him.  I have possibly never spoken to anyone in my life that was easier to talk to and that I instantly liked.  What may appear to be "nit picking" is nothing more than my way of digging through beliefs and ideas to see, if any facts, evidence, or theory, lie underneath.

[George999]

Hawk, my current theory about Peyronies is that it is caused by localized microvascular disease.  By this, I mean issues at the level of the capillaries.  The way that Pentox works is by making red corpuscles flexible so that they fit through damaged capillaries providing oxygen to oxygen deprived tissues.  So then, how does Viagra fit into the picture?  The answer is that anything that promotes nitric oxide in the blood stream (and that would include exercise, so even Rico may have a point here) causes a slight amount of dilation in damaged capillaries which just might be sufficient for red corpuscles and thus oxygen to find transit.  Arginine would be helpful in the same way.  Theoretically, any drug lowering blood pressure via Angiotensen II blockade would be helpful.  The problem is, that once you have an area with damaged capillaries that can no longer supply sufficient oxygen to that area, that cause ischemia (oxygen starvation) and results in localized inflammation and expression of things like TGF-beta and that inflammation and TGF-beta can cause damage to spread to adjacent areas.  Thus this sets the pattern for degenerative disease.  Pentox, together with nitric oxide promoters, anti-inflammatories, and anti-oxidants are, at least in my mind, the way to break that cycle and start the process of healing.  The big catch here is that some things that, in theory, should be helpful, are in fact for reasons not completely understood, detrimental instead.  But the PVA combination has been proven to work, and in theory any thing that promotes blood flow through otherwise impassable capillaries should be helpful as well.  That is my concept at this point in time, subject of course to modification by the constant process of investigation and learning.  And I believe more and more that this concept covers much of the whole spectrum of degenerative disease.  (Right now, I am also exploring the area of using supplements to reduce soft tissue calcium as another possible vector in attacking this issue).

[Tim468]

George,

We know that Pentox acts through other mechanisms than simple increases in red cell deformability. it is nice to have a red cell that can squeeze through a narrowed capillary, but I do not think that is enough of an explanation of how it works.

We know that Pentox inhibits expression of TGF. It is not some sort of washing away of TGF effects, but a direct effect on it's expression. This is true in cell culture where blood flow is irrelevant. So it cannot be enough of an explanation.

Lue has promoted a theory (that has some holes IMO) that inflammation is "trapped" in the damaged tunica. Because of the multiple very thin layers in the TA, when scarring occurs, he posits that TGF and other cytokines are "trapped" within these now mattted together layers. this is key to the ED component. The way that blood stays in the penis during erection is that as it swells, it pinches off draining calillaries that drain through the TA. As these somewhat tortuaous capillaries are tugged and pulled during erection (remember, that the caps traverse through the TA, going through one layer, then moving over a bit and going through the next micro-layer, that this stretching effectively closes off blood flow leaving the menis through the TA capillaries.

So Lue argues that the inflammation is thus "trapped" between these layers of the TA and thus do not get washed out by good blood flow. But that is, in turn prevented by the damage to the TA.

I am not sure it is an adequate explanation. Instead, I am now favoring a theory of several modes of injury. One would be a traditional large or small injury that progresses and heals slowly - the so-called spontaneous healing injuies (and sometime I am sure such patients do not heal completely). A second group have a predisposition to scarring because of a genetic predisposition to produce too much TGF beta - and their "causative injuries" may be so small as to be imperceptible. A third group may have poor blood flow (ie diabetes or with aging and cholesterol or blood pressure problems) - and for them the theory of trapped inflammation and inadequate O2 supply may be quite appropriate.

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

I started taking viagra at night and was getting lots of erections and waking up with them, I had a solid pipe down there, this makes me question whether you must have sexual stimulation to achieve erections when taking viagra, I'm not so sure on that.  Dr. Mulhall told me I could take viagra daily to increase my penis size as well, I'm still trying to figure this out

ComeBackid

[Rico]

Hawk,

To answer your question on why would someone with normal erections benefit from taking a pde5 inhibitor?

I know you use yourself for a example also...if you had nerve injury from a radical prostate removal for prostate cancer and you are taking this and it didn't stop you from getting peyronies, but you also have stated the injections are the culprit...and also in your case the nitric oxide(anti-scarring agent) wasn't as present for someone who didn't have a radical prostate removal which cause nerve damage, although they do prescribe the taking of night pde5 inhibitors to this group to control scarring...

I posted on Priapism....after removing the blood from the penis they prescribe pentox/viagra or cilias/arginine to prevent collagen(scar tissue) from forming, one can still get erections(ones that last for hours:))...

The word you use *Normal* when you describe erections, night time or day time is I think where we look at this different.....I believe once you have peyronies you are not normal....I believe you have ED(erectile dysfunction)...by increasing ones chance of erections with a pde5 inhibitor and quality and duration of these erections which will provide more nitric oxide to nourish the penile tissue to help prevent collagen from increasing and to shut down inflammation to the area or prevent it to spread....

When Tim talked about Dr.Lue and the matting of the tissues...this is what I felt in the beginning, especially with the hour glass, I know that the lost of elasticity is the culprit, by the matting is there also and this is where the VED comes into play by apply pressure from the inside out, breaking apart also the matted area to allow blow flow to this damage area to heal...

I feel I have ED which they call peyronies....my unit has a dysfunction which can lead to further scarring....to help prevent this I need to keep blood flow to the tissue, and "exercise" the penile vascular tissue by doing this with pde5 inhibitor which causes blood vessel dilation, better blow flow, erections....second is by VED exercise to mold plaque and help increase the elastic property of the tunica and open up the matted area of tissue to increase blood flow to this area....arginine is also precursor to nitric oxide which is a benefit to this program also....

I don't like sound bites, I don't want headlines news, I know also that I go the long way around the barn to get my point across....

Summation:

We are not *NORMAL*  we have ED(erectile dysfunction)....the more oxygen rich blood you can supply to your unit(circulation) the less scar tissue you will have....the report and studies on priapism prove this....

Levine believes that ED drugs prevent scarring, he states this on rats and people....he prescribes it to even young patience(which some are on this forum) with peyronies.... also with arginine and pentox....he doesn't see anyone's erection as myself to be *NORMAL* I can say my erections have not been normal since peyronies, I have a case of erectile dysfunction....

I think also that when you get peyronies you penis is  prone to injury when you erection is soft and trying to penetrate, so some help in this area is good also with the pde5, sometimes prevention is the best medicine....or the medicine is the prevention....


Hawk I really did as you know also enjoyed talking live with you....and I thank you for the kind words...

God Bless...

Rico

[George999]

Tim, thanks so much for the added insights.  It is so easy to reduce things to simplistic formulas, but life does not tend to cooperate when we do that.  You pointed out that, as is the case with many drugs AND supplements, Pentox has multiple effects via multiple pathways.  So I admit that I probably focused to intensely on one of them.  But I am really convinced, and I think this actually fits with what you stated, that some people get Peyronies because they just inflicted to much trauma on themselves in to short of a time frame, and others because they either have the misfortune of having a genetic propensity to scarring, and still others because they already have significant damage which is slightly below the threshhold of causing affliction and a trauma so slight as to be unnoticeable pushes them over the threshhold, and still others perhaps because their diet renders them vulnerable to uncontrolled inflammation.

My long term obsession in this whole degenerative syndrome area, including not only Peyronies, but also things like hypertension, is to discover those simple things that just ever so slightly tilt the balance in favor of healing.  I am convinced that the right combination of such subtle influences can result in a cure and that perhaps it is just this that is behind the fact that some of us heal spontaneously more easily than others.

People often refer to 'spontaneous remission' as the reason why people get 'over' everything from cancer to heart disease.  But I am convinced that these cases are more than mere acts of fate.  Aside from the conviction that God can heal people by his sovereign power (Hawk, I hope you will forgive this transgression - feel free to strike it if it is over the top , I also believe that many mysteriously recover due to a subtle confluence of effects that we have yet to figure out.  But if these effects could be discovered and harnessed, the benefits would be immeasurable.

This is one thing that I find frustrating with our modern day medical system and institutions.  In our western society, doctors seem to be so busy just trying to put out 'fires', both physiological and psychological, that they have little time to ask questions and enter interesting data into outcome databases.  It was just mentioned in the news just yesterday that many doctors are successfully diagnosing their patient's difficult issues using Google.  Imagine!  Here is the medical community finding success in resorting to the world wide web.  Imagine what they could do if they had their own engineered database wherein each doctor recorded data on each patient which could then be subject to mass analysis by the research community and then the results fed back online to the docs on the front lines.  Our system is just so dysfunctional, too bad, we could do so much better with a little imagination and creativity .

- George

[Hawk]

Hawk,
The word you use *Normal* when you describe erections, night time or day time is I think where we look at this different.....I believe once you have peyronies you are not normal....I believe you have ED(erectile dysfunction)...

Rico, the issue is not what you believe, the issue is the facts and your statement is nothing but misinformation

I feel I have ED which they call peyronies....my unit has a dysfunction which can lead to further scarring....

Again, we are not here to discuss your feelings.  That is for the "Psychological Impact" thread.  We are here to discuss facts and we can not do so with such misstatements and improper definitions as are found in this quote.

We are not *NORMAL*  we have ED(erectile dysfunction)....the more oxygen rich blood you can supply to your unit(circulation) the less scar tissue you will have....the report and studies on priapism prove this....

Who are you speaking for here?  It cannot be for all the members because I know men with Peyronies Disease for 10 years that never had ED unless you are inventing a new term.  If so maybe you can call it RED for Rico ED.  This is another staement and total misinformation.

Levine believes that ED drugs prevent scarring, he states this on rats and people.....he doesn't see anyone's erection as myself to be *NORMAL* I can say my erections have not been normal since peyronies, I have a case of erectile dysfunction....

I think you just totally misrepresented a doctor to thousands of people.


Rico,

Words have real meanings.  We can not all speak with our own individual vocabulary or assign our own private definitions to words and expect to communicate on this forum.  We do NOT all have ED by any proper, established, medical definition of the term.  That is absolutely false information.  ED has already been defined.  You or I do not get to give it our own definition.  ED is the inability to naturally entrap enough blood in the penis to make it sufficiently rigid to sustain satisfying intercourse.  Many men on this forum have no problem in that area.  Just because one's penis is not "normal" in some other regard or they have some dysfunction, does not mean they have ED if they get erections rigid enough for intercourse.  In fact, by definition it means they do not have ED.  There is NO ED called Peyronies Disease as you state.  Peyronies Disease can cause ED but often does not.  Many people have ED that never have Peyronies Disease.

If we are to have any hope of educating and increasing understanding (a main purpose for this forum) we have to stop convoluting the entire discussion with such improperly used phrases

Can I be more blunt?  Many men with Peyronies Disease get rigid throbbing erections.  They do so only because their blood delivery system is fully functional.  They do so because their blood delivery system dilates to full capacity and pinches on the venous blood draining system.  To suggest that these individuals would get greater dilation, or better erections, more blood, or more oxygen with a PD5 inhibitor is nonsense.  There is more chance that they would get priapism that would deprive them of oxygen than an increase of oxygen.  A 17 yr old kid that has on and off erections 18 out of 24 hours will not get more oxygen with a pd5 inhibitor, nor will anyone else, with or without Peyronie's if they already get sufficient rigid daily erections.

You also attributed this to Levine "he doesn't see any one's erection as myself to be *NORMAL* ".   I do not believe any doctor would say no one's erection is normal or that a man with Peyronies Disease cannot not have a rigid erection, which has been the topic our last several posts.  We have no license to put a doctors name on our thoughts just to make a point.  Show me a quote from Levine that indicates he thinks everyone with Peyronies Disease has ED.  if you cannot, then delete your statement which implies he has made such a statement since it is irresponsible to misrepresent a doctor on this or any forum, and a very serious issue.

[Larry H]

Let me make a quick comment or two.

I have had severe Peyronies Disease for about 8 years. I've lost about 2" in length and 50 percent in girth and have between  an 80 to 90 degree upward bend from a large area of dorsal plaque from the glans to the base of the shaft. I have several solid nocturnal erections every night as well as normal arousal erections. They are not pretty, but they are very solid. In short, I have no ED whatsoever, and blood flow is excellent, so my Peyronie's has nothing to do with lack of blood flow.

Larry

[mark501]

Larry H, While my percentages of loss of length, girth & curvature are different than your experience, we are alike as far as nocturnal & arousal erections are concerned. My rigidity is so good that I could not consider taking Viagra for fear of doing some harm such as developing priapism. I don't feel that I have what is commonly defined as ED. I am considering the possibility of asking my Dr. to prescribe Pentox but am waiting for a follow-up report from Dr. Lue. I would not be taking Pentox for it's blood thinning abilities but instead for its reported effects on TGF Beta-1.  

[Rico]

Hawk here you go as requested....

http://www.peyroniesassoc.org/

March 2006

Questions: ask the Doctor

ll. General Question

B. Question is about have peyronies for 2.5 years and his erections aren't as hard and if  peyronies can come again, his pain is gone now....

Answer my Dr. Levine: Erectile Dysfunction is commonly found with peyronies disease. In *FACT* in my own practice, 90% of the men with peyronies disease have reported diminished erection!

He goes on to say why they mirror each other....also he says 50% say they started to have some ED before and 50% after, but 90% of peyronies in HIS practice do!


Mark501.....I hate to break the news to you, but the blood thinner or effect of that from taking the pentox is the reason for the TGF B1. The thinning of the blood makes for more blood flow which in turn supply's more oxygen to the wound which reduces inflammation and scar tissue.

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico,

If you equate 90% with "he does not see anyone's erection as being normal" then it is clear where our communication breakdow lies.

You just confirmed that the previos statement you attributed to Dr. levine was false, and made my point.  I thank you.

I have made it clear that my questions applies only to the ones that have "no trouble getting daytime and nighttime erections".  You still fail to address those.  I have no interest in talking about anyone but the ones you now admit exist.

[Hawk]

Rico,

If you equate 90% with "he does not see anyone's erection as being normal" then it is clear where our communication breakdow lies.

You just confirmed that the previos statement you attributed to Dr. Levine was false, and made my point.  I thank you.  We are making progress even if it is painful.

I have made it clear that my questions applies only to the ones that have "no trouble getting daytime and nighttime erections".  You still fail to address those.  I have no interest in talking about anyone but the ones you now indicate that Dr. Levine confirms to have no loss of erectile function.  As well as those posting here with no loss of erectile function.  This is starting to remind me of our exchanges when you were warning every one against Pentox.

Rico,

1. Based on what you are saying that; Pentox is just the vehicle that causes the blood to deliver the oxygen and that it is the oxygen that is the bottom line no matter what gets it there.

Would you then conclude that;

2. A person with Peyronies Disease that has no trouble getting daytime and nighttime erections does not need pentox/arginine/viagra since their own system is delivering regular oxygen rich erections?  

3. Would you say these natural erections (that furnish much more blood than P/A/V) will satisfactorily treat their Peyronies Disease by naturally getting rid of the TGFb1?  

4. If you answered yes to number #3, wouldn't this mean that 22 year old guys that get an erection 10 times every day and night would not ever develop Peyronies Disease?

[mark501]

Rico, Quote me a credible source for your statement that the thinning of blood by Pentox is the reason for the positive effect on TGF-Beta 1. Be specific or else do not bother answering this post. Many drugs & natural substances thin the blood & what good have they done for patients with peyronie's? Again quote a CREDIBLE source.  

[Rico]

Hawk,

I have said and will say again, I was wrong on Pentox...and my comments on it before where brought on by other things such as potaba, I admit that I was against drugs and have change my mind on this from research...oxygen rich blood is good for the penis...plan and simple...good circulation through pent ox, arginine, or induce erections with pde5 inhibitors or other supplements such as ginkgo or OPC's it is all good....synergy of the pentox/arginine/pde5 inhibitors seems to make sense and give a good delivery, and as George says a engineer punch.....

I started this to help people without the resources, like steve said, to ring the bell for our brothers, so with ginkgo and opc's being available and also arginine and pde5 inhibitors available on the net from Canada like ComeBackid order, they too can benefit from the increase blood flow and oxygen rich blood to there unit to curtail scar tissue and better erection quality....

God Bless...

Rico

[Rico]

Hawk,

I have to hang my hat on the 90% vs the 10%, and I would have to warn the 10% that without precaution they to could be in the 90% if they didn't take a proactive vs reactive approach to peyronies...

I would ask Tim to jump in on pentox ect.... he is are Doctor in the house.... do you think Tim to answer Mark501 question on pentox and if the thinning of the blood or the process of the delivery of oxygen rich blood through this thinning is the key to the tgf b1 effects....

Over and out:)....

God Bless all my brothers on this bless day!

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

Rico,

Apparently we should not be referring to Tim as "our" doctor in the house as you call it, see hawks message.  Since I was very clearly made aware of this I'm passing it along to you, I don't want to be held responsible for starting this domino effect.

"Finally I want to address something I think Tim will support me in.  You referred to Tim as "our doctor on the forum".  Tim is a patient and a member of the forum and does not function as our doctor.  He does not use his true full name, title, or, his credentials.  He does not treat or prescribe for us.  He investigates his own disease and shares his view as an educated person who is logically trying to attack a personal medical problem.  I am very much in favor of getting some doctors on the forum that function as such, but in the mean time, as our registration disclaimer states, "the posts on this forum are made by patients with no medical training expressing their opinions unless otherwise stated."  That otherwise stated would have to include a verifiable name, title, and credentials."

Personally I see tim as a fellow peyronies brother, who also happens to be a doctor.  Because of this Tim is a huge asset to this forum with all his experience, knowledge of drugs, and access to medical research, not to mention the ability to interpret confusing studies.  

[Rico]

ComeBackid,

I look at Tim as someone who makes sense of this nonsense!!!!

Rico

[Tim468]

A quick note before work:

Pentox acts in many ways - in this realm, I believe it acts to reduce the production of TGF. I will point out again that Pentox does this in cell culture ("petri" dishes, for ComeBackid!), and so the effect of pentox is not related to blood flow or blood thinning.

Similarly, the viagra is not being given to "improve erections" although that may be a nice side effect if erections are not good. Viagra is given for it's effects on PDE5, which directly affects inflammation.

It is really important that people get it about this, IMHO. I have read a lot of flat out dumb misrepresentation of the pharmacology involved in the control of TGF. If TGF makes one make too much inflammation, then reducing it is important.

Now, that is not to suggest that erections are unimportant - they are important. And it is increasingly clear that the VED plays a role in helping heal from, or to retard the progression of, Peyronies Disease. "Real erections" may also be equally important. But it is really important that we not confuse the role of delivering oxygenated blood flow to tissue (always important) with the role of drugs that modulate an inflammatory cascade. They are not the same thing. It may seem simpler to equate them, but they are not the same.

Tim

[Rico]

I took my third 10mg of cilias last night, I have been doing it every 48 hours, for the first time in months(I have had peyronies for six months), I woke up to go the bathroom and my buddy was standing up like I never seen in months, I mean full wood that you could hang a towel on, man it is the little things that put a smile on a man's face....before the ciliais I would wake up with medium wood...erections weren't as strong....but like I said that one eye shrimp in the turtle necksweater was starring me in the eye, full helmet.....now that is something you can hang your hat on, Or towel:)...........

Rico