ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[Tim468]

ComeBackid,

Horny Goat weed has anti-PDE4 and 5 properties (I am pretty sure of this), and works through mechanisms that are similar to Viagra. It does not work as well, and the proper dose has not been calculated, and also, the concentration of active ingrerients is not regulated in such a way that one can be sure that one brand is weaker or stronger than another.

Red Ginseng out-performed trazadone in terms of reducing "detumesence" - the property of blood leaving the penis. I do not know, but have read speculation that it exerts an effect on the nerves that enervate that. I believe that is the same mechanism as trazadone.

Thus, in terms of "rough equivalencies", HGW is similar to Viagra, and RG is similar to Trazadone.

I take both.  

My nocturnal erections are way better now. My GF and I are struggling a bit in our relationship and we taking some time off, and so are not currently sexually active, so I cannot comment on how sex might be.    But if that changes, I will file a full report (OK, a modified report!).

I am not seeing a change for the better in the Peyronies Disease, and in fact it is slightly worse with two new areas of concern. I am really bummed about it, but am encouraged that the deformity is not happening because of my use of the VED.

It dawned on me that a tooth that needs a root canal (and hurts) might be causing me to have a generalized inflammatory state in my body, so I am going to get that fixed pronto, and placed myself on Ciprofloxacin to reduce any potential infection (onthe advice of my dentist). I do know that chronic periodontal disease is associated with accelerated cardiovascular disease and earlier deaths, so I think that this might be a hidden factor in my recent worsening. We shall see. I have not yet made a final appointment with the Uro, but am shooting for 10/5 to see him, and hope to start Pentox that day and to get him to advocate for me to get Viagra covered for me as well. If that does not work, I will continue to use the HGW, maybe increase the dose of it.

Finally, one comment about blood flow. I am a complete believer in the importance of blood flow, and in particular the importance of regular erections. I am not certain if the issue is that stretching the tissue prevents contracture (my personal theory) or if the erections are associated with "improved oxygenation" of tissue (doubtful). I doubt the latter because most men do not get Peyronie's and do fine with a variety of erectile functions (from frequent to no erections). Also, the design of the body is not that stupid. Our penises are not starving for oxygen when we are not erect. Nourishing blood flow to all tissues continues - we just do not pool blood in the sinusoids of the erectile tissues. So the whole theory of O2 delivery as the source of the problem does not quite make sense.

However, regular erections, and a continued sense of "fullness" when soft are both associated - IN MY LIFE - with a lack of progression. And, a lack of sex/erections, and an "uptight" feeling have been associated again IN MY LIFE, with progression. So I am reporting my own experience here - I want to be clear about that. And some of the "uptight" feeling may stem from my being anxious and thus having more adrenergic tone (which is what causes detumesence!). That personal experience is why drugs like Ginseng and trazadone make sense to me (as does meditation and prayer to reduce anxiety).

One other thing - regular exercise is also important to promote healing blood flow and to reduce anxiety.

Tim

[Hawk]

Tim,

I submit the following in conjunction with your theory on why erection may be a deterrent to the advancement of Peyronies Disease.  This opinion differs from the one you stated.  It also seems to logically satisfiy for my mind the entire reason our healthy young bodies cycle through several nite-time erections and to speculate further, why erection reducing conditions like: diabetes, stress, prostatectomy, aging, all result in higher incidence of Peyronies Disease.

Oxygen levels vary widely from reduced levels in the flaccid state to very high levels in the erect state. During sleep, oxygen levels are high and a man can normally have three to five nocturnal erections per night, each lasting from 20 to 40 minutes. These nocturnal erections are thought to be part of the body's natural maintenance of healthy erectile tissue. Oxygen levels appear to affect two substances that are important in achieving erection: transforming growth factor 1 (TGF-B1) and prostaglandin E1.

The smooth muscles in the penis produce TGF-B1, a component of the immune system, and one of its roles is to produce collagen. Collagen contributes not only to structural tissue in the body, but is also the material that comprises scar tissue. Prostaglandin E1, among its other functions, opens blood vessels and suppresses collagen production. There is some evidence that when oxygen levels become too low, TGF-B1 production increases and prostaglandin production decreases. If oxygen levels become too low, smooth muscles atrophy and collagen is overproduced, causing scarring and loss of elasticity and reduced blood flow to the penis. Infrequent erections deprive the penis of oxygen-rich blood. Without daily erections, collagen production increases and eventually may form a tough tissue that interferes with blood flow in the penis.

The entire document is in our Resource Library https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,130.0.html

[ComeBacKid]

So in conclusion then one can say Horny Goat Weed works like viagra, and Red Korean Ginseng works like trazodone.

So I guess since I"m taking pentox, l arginine and trazodone, I could also add in horny goat weed to try to mirror the effects of viagra since I can't afford it.  I just wanted to make sure its safe to add in horny goat weed with the trazodone and pentox, and l arginine.  I'm still awaiting the results of my total testosterone blood test.  By the way how much horny goat weed do you take?

ComeBackid

[Rico]

Hawk,

When I was talking about pentox and Viagra and ED ect...oxygen and circulation....I guess this is what I'm saying....circulation brings on oxygen rich blood, the doctors see this, give some pentox which was developed to get to the small extremities and trazdone which was a antidepressant that gave people erections(blood flow) and Viagra a high blood pressure med, when use on college students, well they couldn't get the extra pills back:)...toga, toga!!!(animal house)....now you look at all mens vitality supplements, and the number one ingredient is arginine..more blood flow...

The one thing pepole are missing out on is OPC's grape seed, bilberry, and maritime pine bark...great for circulation also....

I guess I'm a little confuse....it is all about oxygen...circulation...blood flow...I know this doesn't sound very medical and is basic...but with out going the long way around the barn...this is the end effect...

Please let me know if I read that last post right Hawk...thank you and God Bless..
P.S  I have been reading on Trental(pentox) and the label says not to take ginko or vit e with this drug...and Lue has you go off all other supplements...something people should think about, this is a blood thinner...mix and matching without talking to your doctor or doing your homework could be fatal...

Rico

[Tim468]

Rico,

I think that your problem with this material is that you are a reductionist. You are trying to reduce the issues of Peyronies Disease donwn to a unity - a single principle that explains everything. The problem with that is that it does not account for the complexity of the human body. Blood flow is important. I am not sure why it is that you cannot see how important basic repair mechanisms are that work independent of blood flow. While it is true that if you put a tourniquet on yourpenis and choked off all blood flow that the processes of injury and repair would not work, in general, the processes of repair are not dependent on "blood flow". IOW, blood flow is not the problem nor is oxygenation.

That is "normally". In Peyronies Disease, I think that we need to look closely at everything. Thus, I think the stretching of erections, and the healing nourishment of increased blood (and hence increased O2 levels) are both important. But it is also true that the cellular machinery is not working properly in Peyronies Disease. Increasingly a sense that there are microscopic "injuries" and an abnormal repair process informs how we look at Peyronies Disease developing. More than one researcher has pointed out that if there were a general problem with fibrosis, then there would be a total fibrosis everywhere. The focality of the lesions suggests that there may be a general problem with repair, and that it is manifested wherever there is an injury. The concept that there are microscopic injuries - injuries that would normally simply be fixed right up - makes sense. It could explain why there are isolated lesions instead of a generalized process.

Certainly in some diseases, like priapism, wherein the entire penis' erectile tissue is damaged, there is a generalized process of inflammation that causes the entuire penis to fibrose down to a woody stiff non-functioning piece piece of scar tissue. So it seems clear that Peyronies Disease is different than that.

Hawk, the problem with your other theory for me is that I am unsure how we determine if this fact about O2 delivery is true for a man with fewer erections. IOW, are we sure that when you have fewer erections that the processes described actually happen. And why do they happen to some but not others? If it were a O2 dependent pathway, then every man with flagging erections would get Peyronies Disease, and that clearly does not happen. Somehow, though, I believe that this is accurate on some level - that erections lead to healthier penile tissue and slow the progression of disease. I also wonder if the increased blood flow of an erection is equivalent to that induced by a VED.

I also wonder if the Peyronies Disease that I have was less impressive as a young man because of my insistence - not always to the good for my mental health - to have a LOT of sex. I masturbated most days when I wasn't screwing, and there was a strong sense of "use it or lose it". In fact that does correlate in time with my aging processes - in that with age and a lower testosterone level (measured and found wanting!) I get hard less often and my Peyronies Disease is accelerating. But hair turns grey too, and bones demineralize, and aging happens. We cannot turn off this process of aging - and that is NORMAL, not pathologic...

However, I am not going to go out and buy my burial plot just yet. I am going to the doctor and going to use my VED and planning to reconcile with my partner and planning to continue to use it!

Tim

[Hawk]

If it were a O2 dependent pathway, then every man with flagging erections would get Peyronies Disease, and that clearly does not happen. Somehow, though, I believe that this is accurate on some level - that erections lead to healthier penile tissue and slow the progression of disease. I also wonder if the increased blood flow of an erection is equivalent to that induced by a VED.

My gut feeling is (just what we need, the gut feeling of a computer geek on physiology):

Many suffer minor injuries, many suffer reduced oxygenation from reduced erections, but when it is combined with other known and unknown factors (genetics and others) Peyronies Disease results.  Maybe TGF increases and the spiral begins.  Remove either the unknown factors OR remove the TGF and you would stop the process.  In other words, many of us have the "other factors".  Us walking around with some of the conditions for Peyronies Disease means that diabetes,  prostatectomy, or injury, provide the missing component that leads to an increased incidence of Peyronies Disease.  Whether this is true or not, I cannot know, but it would explain the pattern of Peyronies Disease which we see.  It would also logically resolve the the reason why and how some of the promising treatments would work.

On the subject of VED.  VED's expand the tissue like an erection, but as far as blood flow, Dr. Mulhall says "VED's pull in venous blood and do nothing for oxygenation."

[Hawk]

Rico,

Many things increase blood to the penis; VED, trazadone, heat, and many more.  These are not all known to specifically reduce TFG.

Additionally, Pentox seems to decrease TGF far out of proportion to any increase in blood flow.

While blood flow is good (within limits) for stretching, oxygenation, and maybe having some effect on TGF, Pentox seems to provide benefit that exceeds that which would result from just increasing blood flow.  That is why trying to reduce it all to just blood flow does not begin to work.  If it did, then men with regular daytime and night-time erections with oxygen rich blood would never get Peyronies Disease.  Also, if it were that simplistic, a 3rd rate researcher would have solved this puzzle many decades ago.  It is one thing to conclude something is good.  It is another to conclude that this explains it all, we have solved the puzzle and I now understand how it all works.  

Clearly it has not been solved and we do not understand how it all works.  Neither do those that dedicate their lives to finding the answer.

[Rico]

Tim,

Reductionist...when you said that, you did sum me up in one word....it made me think..this plays in every part of my life...keep it simple..

So I agree with you that it has more than one element...

When you say that the part of microscopic "injuries" which cause abnormal repair process, I thought that the process was normal...maybe due to the fact one is more susceptible to this injury at a stress time or age or the nature of the trauma ect...which all can play a part...but isn't it a injury and the way the body does a "NORMAL" way of repair is with scar tissue....and if it was on your ASS(George this is for you:)), then it wouldn't matter....

The VED doesn't supply oxygen to the tissue, but it does provide warm blood which keeps the elastic function by stretching the tissue and remolding it in the case of peyronies...

When the doctors came up with steroids to help patience that were bed ridden for there muscles wouldn't arthropod.....maybe this is the case with the pentox/arginine/viagra... to keep the blood flowing to this area...which yes stops scar tissue through a more complex delivery, but the whole process has to do with the blood flow, for without it, then it wouldn't happen....

I think it is a wonderful thing when when two different approaches can come together and compliment each other....mechanical and medicine.... It looks like this is the approach with peyronies...

I must say I wonder...if it is two mechanical approaches that are really working, the needling of the plaque more than the actual verapamil it self....just like the electric current instead of the verapamil through the other delivery method...it is hard to get research on that...for the razor blades make the money not the razor...and electricity and needles are cheap:)...

Tim you do have above average skills in breaking down reports and articles and are a huge asset to the forum....and you and others have made me feel different about pentox....trazdone and some other meds...

The one thing that we do have in common is we are both proactive.... I'm doing thacker and the VED....in my research I believe the dmso is a vacillator....and I know I get some circulation from arginine also and ginkgo.....and I work the VED to remold the plaque...

Your approach is not that much different...using VED....maybe not the same protocol....and taking supplements....and some meds....

We both agree on the common sense of over all health and well being...we like all people have are own demons or issues in life to deal with, this causes stress..which hinders healing or general health...I choose exercise and I know you are leaning this way also...diet, you believe in also....

More and more doctors are looking at heart health as the key to ED.....if you ask why, they will say, good circulation....also for vision health...circulation...blood flow...yes a simple way to say it...if you talk to a mechanic about your car...her could go on and on....but change the oil every couple thousand miles...the oil, the blood....it is the key to long life of the engine...

Rico

[Hawk]

to keep the blood flowing to this area...which yes stops scar tissue through a more complex delivery, but the whole process has to do with the blood flow, for without it, then it wouldn't happen....

Rico, just what if, it all has to do with TGF factors and a drug could reduce those without increasing blood flow.  Or, what if it all has to do with inflamation response that is set off by general inflamation elsewhere in the body?  Are you still stateing that we on this forum are now positive it ALL has to do with blood flow?  Are you stating that you are positive it all has to do with blood flow?  Or did you mean to say that blood flow may have a lot to do with it?

Trust me, if the world does not know the answer, we will not discover it here.  We will only learn it from those that learn it first.  

[Rico]

Hawk,

I'm saying I don't think :MY: peyronies had anything with blood flow or inflammation intially, it had to do with me causing trauma to myself by being in a stress state of mind when my wife left me and I wasn't sleeping and eating right, over the age of 50, unit wasn't fully erect and I pounded it like a zoo monkey trying to have a organism so I could fall asleep, I keep at it half the night and even though I was sore, keep this madness up for several days, and I injured the area.....now the inflammation set in, and the  Normal process of healing the wound with scar tissue came into play....mine was a trauma injury...each and everyone of us has are own story....if I knew what I know today...

Well I would do a lot of things different...and if I just went in to the Urologist after the first week, then maybe pentox/arginine/viagra would of been my choice.... and maybe I would be where I'm at today...let's face it, that is no magic bullet either...

My thoughts which I agree with you also...don't mean a hill of beans:).....is that without blood flow nothing could happen, it is the delivery and as George pointed out can be the collagen also(scar tissue), which is a culprit.....It is more complex than just blood flow or circulation, but I feel this is the best thing one can do for hisself, or I should say one of the Better things one can do...and I'm not going to ever post on this again...I promise this:)....

And as far as the whole world does not know the answer.....well the Old Man might not get the credit for it, but I think once they figure out how to get here name on the devise or get some sort of tie in, you will VED with another type of drug or enhance mechanical approach....needling the plaque or electric current with VED....

I guess for some reason I do speculate on here and maybe this isn't the place for it.....I will try to refrain from this in the future.....

God Bless...

Rico

[George999]

There is ONE active ingredient in Horny Goat Weed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horny_goat_weed when it comes to Peyronies.  That ingredient is known as Icariin. Icariin is a mild PDE-5 inhibitor and a VERY mild PDE-4 inhibitor http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12646997&dopt=Citation.  Any quality Horny Goat Weed product should state on the label the (standardized) percentage of Icariin content it contains.  In short, Icariin is a drug, although it is not officially acknowedged as such.  Icariin also has additional beneficial qualities.  For example, it is known to be a rather powerful antioxidant and a tonic to the bones.  It also is a testosterone 'mimic' http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/ajan/2006/00000008/00000005/art00012;jsessionid=hial4idgp19a.henrietta.  It is also reputed to protect the brain http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16232349&query_hl=3&itool=pubmed_docsum, liver, and perhaps other vital organs from toxins.  One can search forever and not find any evidence of toxicity regarding Horny Goat Weed or Icariin, but just the fact that it has drug like effects would indicate to me that it should be used with care.  In other words, follow advice on the label.

- George

[ComeBacKid]

I went to vitamin world, and Wal mart, neither had horny goat weed, or red korean ginseng.  Vitamin World did have some kind of ginseng, it had red chinese ginseng in it, and american ginseng and other kinds, I did not see red korean ginseng though.  I finally found horny goat weed at GNC, the stuff is pretty expensive, costs about $20 for 60 pills but I think it says you take 2 per day, I got a bottle of the stuff. I'm still debating whether to use the horny goat weed with the trazodone or not, since Tim said they both do the same thing kind of.  If red korean ginseng is the best mimic of viagra thats what I really need for my protocol to go along with the pentox and l arginine.  I can't seem to find just red korean ginseng though anywhere?

I did find liquid viagra online, is that stuff safe to buy?

http://www.ag-guys.com/store/product.php?productid=16141&cat=249

My total testosterone test came back as well, it was 198, I'm not in the average category which my doctor was kind of surprised cause he thought my lack of erections was from stress, but I'm not that stressed at all, and I knew something was wrong when you got 0 daytime erections.  Tim what do you think of this?  My doctor is trying to research if I should have a more specific kind of test done now to narrow down exactly what is wrong, he said the time of day could have effected my testosterone, but I got the blood test done at 445 PM.

[George999]

ComeBackid,

The best online supplement vendor I have found for stuff like the Ginseng and the Goat Weed is http://www.vitaminshoppe.com.

Horny Goat Weed:

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/search/en/query.jsp?q=%22horny+goat+weed%22+pde5&x=45&y=13&intsource=main

I use the store brand.  About half what you paid.

Korean Red Ginseng:

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/search/en/query.jsp?q=%22korean+red+ginseng%22&x=0&y=0&intsource=main

Not much to choose from in that department - I just use what they have.

I have used Vitamin World before and still buy my aloe there, but they just don't have the selection.  And I think you need to reread Tim's post.  The Goat Weed is the Viagra substitute, not the other way around.

- George

[Rico]

ComeBackid,

I believe Tim said, HTW was like more like Viagra IHO....

Rico

[Hawk]

I know it sounds like I push these guys, but I have yet to see them beat in the products they carry.  On rare occassion I have to go elsewhere for a specific product.  I am interested in any input but I am very satisfied for the 3 or 4 years I have dealt with them.

Horny Goat weed http://www.puritan.com/pages/file.asp?xs=3AABD6B1193A4199B6FD684426B6025D&PID=1045&CPID=1920&np=1

[ComeBacKid]

George999 and others,

George you seen to have found the best price so far.  I wasn't really shopping for a bargain just wanted to get some Horny Goat Weed and try it out.  I've heard a lot of good things about GNC from this site so I just went there assuming they have decent deals, sounds like they don't.  The guy there did talk about a ginseng panax that has red korean ginseng and other ginsengs which he claims is better  I noticed at GNC they didn't have a lot of individual vitamins but rather different mixtures which include lots of different vitamins and supplements.  The guy at wal mart told me they sell out of red korean ginseng as soon as it is stocked, and they no longer supply horny goat weed.  

[swimfly]

Hi,
I know that Life Extension Foundation is not the cheapest place to find supplements but they do sell some of the best quality products I have found over the years. Other brands I find of decent quality is Nature Made, Natrol, Nature's Way and of Jarrow. Jarrow seems to specialize in men's supplements. Of the brands we purchase, Nature's Way, Jarrow and Life Extension are the most reliable. Hope someone can use the info.  
Be well,  Swimfly  

[Hawk]

I have bought from Life Extension and i am obviously interested in quality.  My question is how can you KNOW it is quality.  Fancy bottle, slick brochure, high price.  

Consumer reports rated several companies on delivered potency as advertised.  GNC was among the very highest.  Puritain Pride manufactures their own product (most buy and relabel) and they stamp it "Lab tested and fully certified quality and potency, guarenteed"  I figure that is worth about 2 drops of ink except that an established company probably wants to protest their reputation.  Since it is not FDA regulated they can say almost anything.

[swimfly]

Hawk,

Yeah, there is that inconsistent issue with supplements. Never tried Puritan Pride but I may check them out...thanks! Most of the brands that I find are good comes from 30 years of experience in purchasing alternative products. There are ways to seek out a bit of an educated opinion too.

Our family Physician, an M.D., is a homeopath. He's a great source for finding good products. I'm also not shy about asking our compound Pharmacist and our regular Pharmacist. Working around Doc's everyday also comes with a perk. There's an  ER Doc at one hospital Paul and I frequent who also has an alternative medicine practice. Every little bit helps!

[Tim468]

On the subject of VED.  VED's expand the tissue like an erection, but as far as blood flow, Dr. Mulhall says "VED's pull in venous blood and do nothing for oxygenation."

Dang - I just wrote a message to someone about this topic and wanted to repost it but lost it. The gist of it is this: Blood retained with the VED should not be venous blood, since veins have valves that prevent backwards flow. The blood that is retained in the penis is delivered to the penis by an artery and prevented from leaving the penis by the vacuum. I see no reason to believe that blood would flow backwards from veins leaving, but not continue to pump in arterially as it normally does?? That just doesn't hold water IMHO. Also, it would be difficult, but not impossible to desing a VED that had a port for an ultrasound unit to measure blood flow during a vacuum to see exactly what is happening.

In terms of Ginseng - I found a liquid form and a powdered form. I have been playing around with both. I found a larger volume box that held 6 boxes in which ten small glass vials resided, all for about $15. I add one to a cup of green tea twice a day. I found small packets of powdered red ginseng at Costco (in bulk, of course!) that can be opened. I add one of those too. All have been associated with better nighttime erections - but I cannot tell if one is better than another.

I have tried "Triple Ginseng" which includes american and Chinese - I am not sure there is a difference between Red Chinese and Red Korean ginseng. Here is an example of what I have found in a small wonderful Vietnamese grocery store (but in bulk!) http://www.vitaminproshop.com/039278701210.html

I buy my Horny Goat weed for 9.95 for 60 tabs (it is capsuled with Maca too). It cannot hold a candle to Viagra for chemical effects (ie side effects especially). Last week it was marked down to 4.95 and I bought all four bottles that were available. I get mine at a local supoermarket (Giant Eagle - a local store).

Finally, I have tried to but not yet obtained access to a resource for quality items called "Natural Standard". We have played phone tag for a few weeks, but I am going to find out it they have more quantifiable amounts of medicines (ie wogonin in amounts I could trust).

Tim

[Kimo]

ComeBackid
If your testosterone is 198,,,,thats considered zero..Your level for your age should be around 800,. its no wonder you don't have any erections....

I'm glad you brought this up because i need to ask for help from anyone who can tell me what to do..Not only do I have peyronies, i also have had Hypogonadism for serveral years, Low testosterone.....When it gets that low you have no feeling or should i say no tingling in the groins, and no desire for sex, plus you will have a lot less energy and be tired all the time...

OK, i have been on the testosterone Patch for the past few years and it has worked great for me,,,a few months ago we lost all of our insurance and we are on a limited income, i had to give up my patches because my wife needs a lot of meds and she comes first.....The cheapest i can find them is at walmart for 200.00 a month...I just can't afford them and i have been going down hill...Can anyone tell me of a cheaper alternative?  I am suffering from acute stomach pain from having been infected by a water parasite and now my energy level is going down from no testosterone and i have no feeling in my groin...

I would welcome any suggestions and advise from the group. You men are the only ones i have to turn to, and i would apprecieate your input...Before i had the patch, i tried the gel and then the pill and they just didn't work.

Even if there is no answer , at least i can get it off my chest by being able to post,,,,thanks guys,, anyone can feel free to e-mail me also if you wish at  kauaiman005@yahoo.com

Kimo

[swimfly]

Kimo,

I talked at length to a compound Pharmacist just last week about compounded testosterone. I asked about the different bases and about how they prepare them to ensure correct dosing. I was also a little concerned because of the regulations involved with compounding testosterone. Not all pharmacies will go through the trouble of mixing anything that is a schedule II drug. Apparently we had been dealing with a pharmacy that specializes in compounding hormone replacement drugs for 20 years....who knew???  

Our insurance covers most of the cost of the Androgel Paul uses but he wants a more consentrated form so he can apply less to his skin since he uses it twice a day, not once. He does pretty well on the gel. He just wants to try the compound.

I am able to order Paul 40 gm. tubes of gel compounded @ 10mg/1 gm. With that mixture he will be able to use a half gm. of gel twice a day instead of the 5 gm. he uses now. A 40 gm. tube is considered a 30 day supply and the cost came out to be $85.00 for a 3 month supply. That's only $15 dollars more than with the co-pay discount we get on Androgel. Insurance does not cover compounds. We use a compound pharmacy less than 20 miles away but I'm lazy! I simply fax any scripts to them then mail the original. By snail mail it takes 2 days to receive a package.

I have used compounded HRT for a number of years and have always been pleased by the results. Hopefully Paul will have good results too. If you would like to ask questions directly of the pharmacy I'd be glad to share the number. Perhaps there is a compound pharmacy near you?   Be well, Swimfly

[ComeBacKid]

Kimo,

I'm glad you posted so I can hear your experiences about testosterone.  Yes your right , I have absolutely no sex drive at all.  About two years ago when I started lexapro, I had a raging sex drive.  The lexapro seriously damaged my sex drive and gave me delayed ejaculation, I only got about four or five daytime erections.  Just this past april I had been off lexapro for awhile, but thats when my peyronies worsend and my penis shrunk and got hard, at this point all my daytime erections went away totally.  I think the peyronies combined with the lexapro did away with my testosterone somehow, I"m not exactly sure.  I wanted to get it checked and I was right, absolutely no daytime erections means theres a problem!  The question now is what to do?  My doctor is a phsyciatrist and has to read up on this stuff.  I kind of agree with hawks theory on getting erections to prevent disease progression, however Tim has pointed out that if this were the case then many more older men who don't get erections would have peyronies.  I think the real answer is somewhere in between and I still am not sure about whether the VEd just stretches out your penis or brings in oxygen?  

The way I see it, is that getting erections during the day can't hurt, and I'm very concerned about this problem, what should I do to boost my testosterone, is taking the stuff safe?  Obviously I have virtually no sex drive and need testosterone.  

[ComeBacKid]

Did a little research on what can cause low testosterone...

Testes-Based Conditions
Men whose testosterone deficiency is caused by an abnormality in the testes often display increased FSH levels, increased LH levels, and impaired sperm production. These conditions include:


Trauma — A direct physical injury to the testes may damage the cells that produce testosterone.

Castration — Surgical removal of the testes, e.g., for testicular cancer, results in severe reduction in testosterone production.

Orchitis — Testicular inflammation can occur after a post-puberty bout with the mumps (there is a higher risk of risk of infertility than low testosterone).

Radiation treatment or chemotherapy — These therapies for other diseases may damage the testosterone-producing cells of the testes.

Testicular tumors — Treatment of testicular tumors may directly affect testosterone production.
Pituitary/Hypothalamus-Based Conditions
Men whose low testosterone levels result from defects in the pituitary or hypothalamus generally have a low or low-normal FSH level and low or low-normal levels of LH. These conditions include:

Pituitary tumors   The growth of abnormal tissue in the pituitary can disrupt the gland's normal functioning and interfere with hormone production. Some tumors produce hormones that can interfere with LH production.
>High prolactin levels   High levels of the pituitary hormone prolactin from a hypothalamic or pituitary tumor, certain medications, and other causes inhibit LH and FSH production, resulting in low testosterone levels.


Medications — Certain drugs used to treat medical conditions that affect the brain (e.g., opiate pain medications such as morphine) and hormones (e.g., cortisone-like medications such as prednisone, and anabolic steroids) may inhibit LH and FSH secretion by the pituitary, and in turn, testosterone production by the testes.

HIV/AIDS — Viruses or other infectious agents may directly or indirectly affect the hypothalamus, pituitary or testes and can decrease testosterone levels; as many as 50 percent of men infected with the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) may have low testosterone. Severe malnutrition that occurs with AIDS and other wasting conditions may also inhibit LH and FSH production, resulting in low testosterone levels.

Immune and Inflammatory Pituitary Disease — Conditions such as sarcoidosis, tuberculosis, fungal infection, and autoimmune disease may also impair the pituitary's ability to make hormones.
Genetically-Based Conditions
Men may have low testosterone as a result of chromosomal abnormalities or genetically-based conditions. These conditions include:

Klinefelter's syndrome — A genetic condition in which an extra X chromosome is present (about one in every 400 men have this); testosterone production is low to low normal; men with this syndrome also may have markedly reduced bone density and learning disabilities.

Hemochromatosis — A common genetic disorder in which there is excessive depositing of iron into body tissues, most notably the liver, pancreas, heart, skin, and pituitary gland, resulting in reduced functioning of these organs. Iron deposition in the pituitary gland causes impaired production of LH and FSH, which results in decreased testosterone production.

Kallmann's syndrome — Usually a recessive genetic disorder associated with the X chromosome, which occurs in about one of every 10,000 men. A deficiency of gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) impairs the release of LH and FSH, which decreases testosterone production; men with the syndrome lack the sense of smell; testes do not enlarge at puberty.

Prader-Willi syndrome — A genetic disorder characterized by decreased muscle tone in infancy that improves with age, underdeveloped genitals (including undescended testes in boys) and low sex hormone levels. An obsession with food and compulsive eating, also linked with this disorder, may begin before the age of six.

Myotonic dystrophy — The most common adult form of muscular dystrophy, this genetic condition only occurs in men and is carried on the Y chromosome; because testicular failure usually occurs around the age of 30 to 40, men may have sons at risk for the disease.    

I firmly believe that the lexapro I was on which did mess with seratonin did something to the gland in my brain that controls the testosterone, now I have a hell of a mess...  

Here are some of the risks of replacement therapy:

Potential Risks of Testosterone Replacement Therapy

With any testosterone delivery system, prolonged use may result in breast enlargement or increased risk of prostate enlargement or cancer in older men. Men receiving testosterone replacement therapy should be monitored carefully for prostate cancer, e.g., with a rectal examination and prostate specific antigen. In addition, patients with preexisting heart, kidney, or liver disease may experience fluid accumulation with or without heart failure. Men with breast cancer or known or suspected prostate cancer should not receive testosterone therapy. The patch and gel products are not indicated for use in women. Testosterone may cause fetal harm.

Physicians should instruct men taking testosterone to report any of the following:

Breathing disturbances, especially those associated with sleep
Too frequent or persistent erection

I don't think its a coincidence that delayed ejaculation, impotence and decrease in libido are some of the side effects of lexapro.

"The most common adverse events reported with LEXAPRO vs placebo (approximately 5% or greater and approximately 2X placebo) were nausea, insomnia, ejaculation disorder, somnolence, increased sweating, fatigue, decreased libido, and anorgasmia."

[George999]

ComeBackid,

If I were you, I would take plenty of things like maca and aloe vera and see what they do for you.

- George

[Kimo]

ComeBackid , Tim

Here's some more info or history about my experience on the testosterone.....When i was young i always had a raging sex drive, would drive my wife crazy ...At about 45 yrs of age is when i started loosing my drive and became very tired all the time..I was always a high energy person, and then NO energy,,,thought i was being lazy but knew i wasn't...This lasted about 10yrs before i found a URO that would help me...My first URO just said i was normal for my age and didn't offer to do anything about it...So, thats when i changed, my new doc checked my Testosterone level and i was below 200 which he said was considerd zero...So then he put me on androgel , twice a day/ this worked great for a few months, maybe about a year/ it worked so well that my level went up to 831---high for a 20 to 30 yr old...Man i have to tell ya i was climbing the walls, he cut it back to once a day...After about a year it got to where i didn't work anymore and so he had me try the pill under the tounge, that was disgusting stuff...About that time they came out with the patch ,
< Androderm > 5 mg ,,,change it once a day at bedtime, this was really the best way to go and it kept me at a very even keel all the time, my level was always the same around 700, still kinda high for a 60yr old , kept me real horny all the time and i felt good....Testosterone is so essential for all the bodys organs to stay healthy...

The patch runs 200.00 a month, 30 patches....I'm just trying to find an alternative until i can figure out how to afford to get back on the patch..

As for prolonged use, my URO always does a blood test on me every 6 months, to make sure things are going in the right direction...Even tho the patch brought my level back up, i still needed to use viagra about 50 percent of the time...With my second case of peyronies i have cut back to using 25 mg of viagra, if i get to hard of an erection it makes the plaque hurt during intercourse,,i figure i just have to live with it because of where it is this time,< recessed back inside behind my pubic hair, it really hurts when i'm pushing it in....

Well, i hope something here maybe helps someone, thanks for letting me be a part of this group,,,,,,,,,kimo

[ComeBacKid]

Thanks for that information Kimo, I found this link in regards to sex drive and SSRI and how to combat decreased libido.

http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/papers/manuscripts/_684.html

My real question is how does on increase their testosterone and then keep it raised permanently after they get off the andro gel stuff?  

[ComeBacKid]

The normal level of testosterone in your bloodstream is between 350 and 1,000 nanograms per deciliter (ng/dl). Like combable hair, those quantities silently start to wane around age 40. You lose about 1 percent a year -- a harmless decline in the short term, but a cause of obesity, brittle bones, muscle loss and impotence by the time you reach your 60s -- if you live that long. Testosterone levels in the low range (a blood serum score below 350 ng/dl) may increase your chances of dying of a heart attack.

It's not just an old man's problem, either. Men in their 30s and 40s also fall prey to low testosterone counts. It's a disorder called hypogonadism, and it can be caused by an undescended testicle, a testicular injury, a pituitary gland disorder or even prescription drugs. It usually goes undiagnosed until a man hits his doctor with a telltale complaint: "I can't get an erection."

"If you have reduced levels of sexual desire, have your testosterone level checked immediately," says Dr. Allen Seftel, a urologist at Case Western Reserve University Hospitals of Cleveland. You can replenish your testosterone stores with injections, gels, pills or patches, but these medical treatments are no panacea: Side effects include acne, high cholesterol, shrunken testicles and liver damage. Further, don't take supplements like DHEA or androstenedione to boost testosterone; they might increase your risks of prostate cancer and heart disease.

"For men with borderline testosterone scores, I advise them to try to raise their levels through exercise and weight loss before going on testosterone therapy," says Dr. Goldberg. And it might pay to start young. "Since your testosterone declines at a steady rate, it's conceivable that raising your hormone levels naturally in your 20s and 30s could help you maintain higher levels later on," he says. Either way, the reward can be a stronger physique and better bedroom sessions than you'd otherwise deserve. Below are 13 tips designed to get your juice up -- safely.

Get Rid of the Flopping Belly

Or you'll grow a pair of fetching breasts to complement it. Carrying excess body fat elevates your estrogen levels, and that may cause your testosterone levels to sink, says Joseph Zmuda, an epidemiologist at the University of Pittsburgh. Louie Anderson is proof enough of this. Two or three extra pounds won't cause this hormonal shift; it really occurs once you're 30 percent over your ideal body weight. "Unfortunately, that's pretty common now," says Dr. Dobs.

But Lose Only One Pound a Week

When you want to trim down quickly, you probably starve yourself while exercising like a madman. One of the many reasons this stops working in your 30s, when your natural testosterone levels start dropping, is pretty simple: Cutting your calorie intake by more than 15 percent makes your brain think you're starving, so it shuts down testosterone production to wait out the famine. "There's no need to reproduce if you're starving," explains Thomas Incledon of Human Performance Specialists in Plantation, Fla. Ironically, this dive in circulating testosterone stops you from burning body fat efficiently, so you're actually thwarting your hard efforts to melt that tire off your gut.

Skip the Atkins Fad

Research suggests that eating a high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet can cramp your testosterone levels. High amounts of dietary protein in your blood can eventually lower the amount of testosterone produced in your testes, says Incledon, who observed this relationship in a Penn State study of 12 healthy, athletic men.

Your protein intake should be about 16 percent of your daily calories, Incledon says. So, if you're the average 170-pound man who eats 2,900 calories a day, you should eat about 140 grams of protein daily, which is about the amount in two chicken breasts and a 6-ounce can of tuna.

Have Morning Sex

German scientists found that simply having an erection causes your circulating testosterone to rise significantly -- and having one in the morning can goose your natural post-dawn testosterone surge. It's a sure bet you'll burn a little fat, too.

Stick With Tough Exercises

To beef up your testosterone levels, the bulk of your workout should involve "compound" weight-lifting exercises that train several large muscle groups, and not just one or two smaller muscles. For example, studies have shown that doing squats, bench presses or back rows increases testosterone more than doing biceps curls or triceps pushdowns, even though the effort may seem the same. This is why doing squats could help you build bigger biceps.

Make Nuts Your Midnight Snack

Nuts are good for your nuts. Research has found that men who ate diets rich in monounsaturated fat -- the kind found in peanuts -- had the highest testosterone levels. "It's not known why this occurs, but some scientists believe that monounsaturated fats have a direct effect on the testes," says Incledon. Nuts, olive oil, canola oil and peanut butter are good sources of monounsaturated fat.

Squeeze Out Five Repetitions per Set

Throwing around 5-pound dumbbells won't help you effect a rise in testosterone. Start off by using a heavy weight that you can lift only five times. That weight is about 85 percent of your one-repetition maximum. A Finnish study found that this workload produced the greatest boosts in testosterone.

Do Three Sets of Each Weight-Lifting Movement

Researchers at Penn State determined that this fosters greater increases in testosterone than just one or two sets. Rest a full minute between sets, so you can regain enough strength to continue lifting at least 70 percent of your one-rep maximum during the second and third sets.

Rest Harder Than You Work Out

If you overtrain -- meaning you don't allow your body to recuperate adequately between training sessions -- your circulating testosterone levels can plunge by as much as 40 percent, according to a study at the University of North Carolina. The symptoms of overtraining are hard to miss: irritability, insomnia, muscle shrinkage, joining the Reform Party. To avoid overtraining, make sure you sleep a full eight hours at night, and never stress the same muscles with weight-lifting movements two days in a row.

Drive Home Sober

To maintain a healthy testosterone count -- and titanium erections -- cut yourself off after three drinks. "Binge drinking will kill your testosterone levels," warns Incledon. Alcohol affects the endocrine system, causing your testes to stop producing the male hormone. That's one reason drinking often causes you to go limp at the moment of truth.

Have a Sandwich at 3 p.m.

As any sensible woman knows, the way to put hair on a man's chest is to fill his stomach. Your body needs a ready supply of calories to make testosterone, so regularly skipping meals or going for long stretches without eating can cause your levels of the hormone to plummet. Then again, that's probably the warden's plan.

Buy the Fried Tortilla Chips

If you want to raise your testosterone score, eat a diet that includes about 30 percent fat, and not much less. Your body needs dietary fat to produce testosterone, so eating like a vegetarian aerobics instructor will cause your testosterone levels to sink drastically. This is bad, unless you actually are a vegetarian aerobics instructor.

Stop Surfing for Porn at 2 a.m.

Sleeping less than seven to eight hours a night can screw up your circadian rhythm. That's why it's no wonder your testosterone levels are higher in the morning after a good night's sleep. So if your work or social schedule keeps you stooped in perpetual jet lag, don't be surprised if you stop craving sex. At least that'll make it easier to stay out of bed.

[Rico]

ComeBackid,

This is right one....he hits it on the head....especially on the sleep and diet....also strentgh training...the three main lifts for power lifters are bench, squat, and dead lift....you can get huge biceps from doing rows.... a push pull method is also very good, you push weights one day and pull the next....

Rico

[DannyOcean]

(Note: This question could probably be posted in multiple threads but since it's at least somewhat related to the testosterone discusssion going on here I thought I'd post it in this one.)

So I'm trying to solve this mystery.  My "hang" is really inconsistent.  Sometimes I've very "full" and hang nicely.  Other days my unit seems to shrivel up (i.e. my hang isn't nearly as full).  So I'm trying to figure out why this is.  I have no doubt that a fuller hang not only feels better but is probably a much more conducive environment for the healing of Peyronies.  What I'm trying to figure out is how can I maximize the conditions in which I'll hang fuller.  Here's what I've come up with so far...I'd love to hear the thoughts of others.

Factors leading to a fuller hang

1.  Arginine/pentox/viagra - I started on this combo back a couple of months ago and have noticed a fuller hang since.  However, it was a lot fuller when I first started on those meds and less so recently so I'm wondering if my body has somewhat adapted to them?

2.  Gingko Biloba - Since Gingko increases blood flow it would make sense that this produces a fuller hang.  I haven't noticed a big difference myself (at least nothing that I can distinguish from the effect I received from the triad above).

3.  Sleep - I seem to have a fuller hang when I'm well-rested.

4.  Water - I seem to have a slightly fuller hang when I'm well-hydrated.

5.  Exercise - Getting regular blood flow seems to help.  Yoga in particular seems to be great because you end up doing a lot of stuff with the hips and the groin area.

6.  Sexual activity - There seems to a be a bit of a major frequency here.  Too little sexual activity seems to produce a less full hang.  However, too much activity also seems to work in the same way.  For me (at least) a couple of episodes per week seems to be best.  Also, actual sex seems to lead to a fuller hang than masturbation (why would that be...psychological?).

7.  Wearing boxers - Not having tightie whities on seems to help as well with circulation and hang.

Factors leading to a less full hang

1.  Stress - I developed Peyronies Disease during a period that I would characterize as among the most stressful of my life.  I have no doubt that stress was a huge contributing factor.  I think there is a definite correlation here.

2.  Alcohol - I'm more guessing than anything here but I think there is probably a correlation.  I'm trying to reduce my alcohol consumption.  It's tough because I have a packed social calendar but I'm making progress.

3.  Cold water - Joking around here.  Call this the Costanza effect.

Have you guys noticed anything else that seems to affect hang?  I'd be particularly interested in any other supplements that produce full hangs.  Given that Peyronies Disease seems so tough to cure I think that trying to have a fuller hang is probably something that we should all be interested in.  Plus there's something about having a nice full hang that makes me feel more of a man.

[Rico]

DannyOcean,

I was looking up trental, and did read a couple articles to not mix ginko with it....where you hanging better before you started ginko, personally I wouldn't be taking any other supplements with that combo...

Stress huge factor...

Sleep is on the top of list for function...especially as we get older..

Alcohol...three drinks max...two is better...this plays huge role with proper sleep....

Have lunch at Hooters:)... this works... I go there once a week... hey it is for medical reasons:)...

Rico

[DannyOcean]

Thanks Rico.  Can anyone point me to the articles about Pentox and Gingko...def don't want to screw that up if it's a problem.

And I have noticed that when I'm more "sexual" in my everyday life (chatting with girls, going on dates, etc.) then I tend to hang better.  I went through a part of my life when I pretty much tucked that stuff away...that's when I developed Peyronies Disease...go figure.

[George999]

Before we leave the subject of testosterone and testosterone deficiency, let me suggest that there might be more than one way to skin a cat.  The problem with suplements that boost testosterone, and there are some like DHEA and Androstenedione that are known to do so, is that they carry both known and unknown risks.  Of course direct testosterone supplementation carries risks as well, not the least of which is further atrophying the testes and thus further reducing basil testosterone levels ... YUCK!!!  But I would like to suggest that what everyone seems to be overlooking (since we all like the instant cure approaches) is the potential value of using supplements in an attempt to nuture our own testicles, since if we are experiencing low testosterone levels, there might just be a problem down there thats a possible cause.  So how about a little bit of ... taa daa! ... plain old zinc for example?  Please read on ...

Experimental zinc deficiency in man. Effect on testicular function:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6772723&query_hl=18&itool=pubmed_DocSum

And remember that certain prescription drugs AND certain supplements can cause vitamin and mineral deficiencies!

Also see ...

Zinc in mammalian sperm: a review:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6378991&query_hl=18&itool=pubmed_DocSum

If I was having testosterone problems, I would certainly make sure I was getting a safe, but daily, level of zinc supplementation.

A couple of other related references ...

Zinc: The Biggest Secret in Weight lifting:

http://www2.gvsu.edu/~pontiusd/zinc.html

Restaurants offer sexy food for Valentine's Day:

http://mesh.medill.northwestern.edu/mnschicago/archives/2002/02/restaurants_off.html

Other supplements I would recommend to boost testicular health:

Vitamin A (MAKE SURE YOU TAKE THIS IN SAFE LEVELS, IT IS EASILY TOXIC!!!) ...

Testicular atrophy, zinc concentration, and angiotensin-converting enzyme activity in the testes of vitamin A-deficient rats:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=10065595&query_hl=27&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Vitamin C - Timed Release ...

Recent knowledge concerning the biochemistry and significance of ascorbic acid (circa 1984):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=6369813&query_hl=22&itool=pubmed_docsum

Soy (maybe) ...

Increased serum and testicular androgen levels in F1 rats with lifetime exposure to soy isoflavones:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15219630&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_DocSum

Then there are some things that are bad for testosterone ...

Protein ingestion prior to strength exercise affects blood hormones and metabolism:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16286871&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

And of course some things just can't be helped   ...

Marriage lowers testosterone:

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/09.19/01-testosterone.html

Cheers,

- George

[ComeBacKid]

George,

I think there is a lot more to be discussed involving testosterone.  I'm waiting for tim to get back to me with some information on it and my own doctor as well.  I thought this article seemed really good on some things I and others with low testosterone can work on in the meantime.  

Rico,

I now have free weights and started a running program I hope to do daily, gotta lose that belly fat to increase testosterone, I also vitrually eliminated alcohol from my diet totally.  My doctor is looking now into what additional tests I should get, more specific ones, this test was the red flag being thrown, its time to seriously examine my condition.

ComeBackid

[George999]

Anyone else notice the coincidental intersection of these two conditions?  I suspect that most of us posting on this board are old farts (I claim that distinction myself) with what can be assumed to be flagging testosterone levels.  And among the younger posters, it seems like many either are dealing with testosterone issues or are addicted to booze (which will guarantee low testosterone levels) or both.  I also recall seeing a study somewhere where supplementing cirrhosis sufferers with testosterone caused measurable improvement.  This is fascinating to me because cirrhosis is basically fibrosis of the liver.  One neat thing about that is that its status can be accurately measured with a blood test and you can't do that with peyronies.  Therefore!  If raising testosterone levels causes MEASURABLE reduction in liver fibrosis, might it also not benefit peyronies sufferers?  And is it really a coincidence that most if not all of us probably have low testosterone levels?  So, hey guys, I just started to include zinc in my supplement regimen.  Let's see what happens!

- George

[Rico]

Forum members and guest:

Cialis has applied for FDA approval for their daily Cialis, the price is $3.50 per pill or about $100. per month....a PDE5 inhibitor that you take like a daily vitiamin, it will be used in Eurpope soon...

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

George999,

I was taking lexapro which messed with my sex drive and drinking a lot in college at the same time, I think the two may have worsened my peyronies disease.  

I just got off the phone with my doctor, he proposes to do another total testosterone test(since there is a 20% chance you will have one out of your normal range) and also get the LH tested and prolactin as well.

Prolactin

LH

Elevated levels of prolactin tend to decrease testosterone production... hmmm interesting...

"I think a lot of people get night sweats from the SSRI's. I know I did and they were drenching and very annoying. I could not tolerate the SSRI's though, so I stopped using them. Why are you still using Lexapro after two years? If your serotonin was out of whack, an SSRI should have it back to normal within a year. I would bet you anything that this is due to using Lexapro and nothing else. It is time to taper down and get off the drug, in my opinion. SSRI's suppress the HPA axis, which means they can alter your endocrine system (hormones). Could be that the Lex is throwing off your hormonal balance. Have your hormones checked (cortisol, thyroid, progesterone, estrogen, prolactin, testosterone, etc) by an endocrinologist, after you have been off the lexapro a while. No need to be scared though."

I've now convinced my doctor to get all the above bolded things tested, I'm starting to get frusterated with him, he thinks my lack of no daytime erections since april is due to stresss... I know my body, it is not normal for a 22 year old kid to get no daytime erections at all, maybe one every once awhile.  I've added the trazodone for nighttime erections thanks to hawk.  I'm now trying to massage up two erections, in each half of the day for blood and oxygen.  There seems to be a general connection here between low testosterone, alcohol abuse, being overweight and SSRI's and Peyronies Disease.  

[George999]

So ComeBackid, lets see if I'm hearing this correctly.

Your lack of normal erections (according to the doc) is due to stress.

You know that your hormones are out of wack.

By jove, I think I've got it!

Having your hormones out of wack is causing your stress which is causing you not to have normal erections!

But your doctor seems to be a little slow in making that connection  

But we hope that a ray of light will shine in from somewhere  

Best wishes,

- George

[George999]

Hey Rico,

Is that daily Cialis thing designated for Peyronies?  I seem to remember reading that they were in Phase III trials with Cialis for Essential Hypertension, but I don't remember anything about Peyronies.  Of course, once its approved in a daily dose as a BP med, one could probably get that dose prescribed by a uro for an off label use.  Interesting.

- George

[Rico]

George,

This is for ED, they feel it is a better delivery system...they never mention anything about BP or peyronies, but yes, one could use it as a off label for peyronies....

I'm just glad that there is a 3 billion dollar industry that they are trying to get to, this is three billion reasons they might stumble onto a cure for peyronies....

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

I don't know how many people here have read this article but I found it offline.  I wondered if they reported the results of this study yet?

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/youropinions.php?opinionid=8769

[myrddin]

A while ago I had vented my frustration here, about being unable to find a doc to prescribe the latest "hopeful" drug, Pentox.  I first went to my doc, who diagnosed my Peyronie's (I already knew it was, based on the classic symptoms) and prescribed 800mg Vitamin E per day.  I then got a referral to a Urologist who was absolutely convinced the best and most reliable treatment was 1200mg vitamin E per day.  He discouraged trying anything else, because (according to him) they'd all been proven no better than a placebo.

I was dissatisfied with this treament, and requested another referral to the leading urologist in my state, and the reigning local Peyronie's "expert" (Culley Carson).  It was a long wait to get an appointment with him, but it finally happened today.

He's like, "Oh yeah, I have several patients on Pentox right now.  Tom Lue's a friend of mine, I talk to him all the time.  I'm on several research panels with him.  Why don't you try Pentox for 90 days, then we'll check back with you and see how it's going?"  I'm thinking, it's about time!  Someone who is current with the latest treatments!  I was beginning to think I was going to be a casualty of medical ignorance.  I guess the jury's still out - I may still be, eventually.

Other intesting things he told me:

60-70% of his patients who opt for Verapimil injections see "satisfactory" improvements (but never complete resolution).  His other first oral treatment he attempts with new patients is Colchicine, which again has seen "some" positive results, along with, shall we say, "stool" related side-effects.  Also, "none" of his treatments show much improvement after about 18 months in the inactive, stable phase.  He said by then, the scar tissue has settled down into its final form, like a scar from a cut on your arm, and will not improve without surgery.

But basically I just wanted to report this small victory in obtaining my first "hopeful" prescription treatment, Pentox, and in finally locating and becoming the patient of an informed Urologist.

[Rico]

myrddin,

Did he prescribe you pentox/arginine/viagra or just pentox and how much? also did you ask him about VED and if he uses VED with the injections? What dose of pentox did he prescribe.... I read still that colchicine is still the drug of choice by many doctors, my Urologist, one of the top in the south still prescribes potaba and topical verapamil.... he thinks the injections are hit and miss and about as effective as the topical....

As we all know that even if the plaque is gone, then you still have to deal with lost of size and some bending...the early drugs seem to help pain and stop any further damage, put it in a more stable state.....the lost of elasticity is still a issue of the tunica....I'm curious if he did metion the VED??

Rico

[myrddin]

He said nothing about using a VED at this point, but he did stress he likes to first try oral treatments, and go from there, depending on the results.

Also I'll be able to say more on the Pentox dosage once I fill the prescription.  It's hard to read but it looks like the pills are 400mg each and I get 3 refills, so that means each bottle is a month's worth?  There's also a "180" on the paper (180 per bottle?).  So I'm not sure what the dosage is until I fill it later today or tomorrow.

Also, no additional "combination" prescriptions or instructions, like L-Arginine or Viagra, were given, though I can suspect why:

1) I had previously reported on my "Currently taking" medications form, that I was taking L-Arginine & vit. E.  So no need for him to advise either of those.

2) When he asked if I had problems getting strong erections, I said no (I don't, honestly).  So maybe that indicated to him no need to prescribe any additional PDE Inhibitor like Trazadone or Sildenafil.  Just a guess.  Or, sure, maybe he's clueless about using them as an add-on. But I doubt it.

Heck I feel pretty well informed about this condition (thanks to PF), so I know getting erections frequently and at nighttime are a good thing.  I've had good luck with Korean Red Ginseng causing those, so if I notice I'm not having many erections, you can bet I'll take some of that to help.

also of note: he squeezed and squished my poor little guy and the plaque inside, til I said "yeeeouwch!" a couple times.  Maybe checking to make sure I'm still in the active, painful phase?  Yessir I am, no doubt about that anymore.

[Rico]

myrddin,

What brand name red ginseng are you using and how much are you taking per day? Thanks.... pentox is a blood thinner, you might want to check on how much blood thinners you should be on with this drug....

I would do some research, I don't know how much vit e you take ect.... there seems to be some thought that if you are taking pentox to not take other blood thinners.... ginkgo for one... it is strange, because then I read something where they prescribe pentox with vit e also???  Personally if I was on something as strong as pentox I would stop all other blood thinners....how much does one need?? especially on the dose you are on, three times Day....much stronger than herbs....

Rico

[percival]

Encouraged by this forum, I recently started taking L-arginine. It has not yet affected my Peyronies Disease  in any way. However, it has quickly cured the tendonitis in both thighs (sporting injury). This is quite remarkable as I have had it for a long while and the medication that the doctor gave me caused side effects that were worse than the tendonitis.
According to web sources there is a common link to Peyronies Disease in that arginine helps produce NO which reduces inflammation in the tendons which are collagen-based.
So arginine has got close to the target - ie the thighs rather than that which dangles between. I am impressed, encouraged and can turn cartwheels again.

Percival

[Mister Dillon]

Dannyocean said:

And I have noticed that when I'm more "sexual" in my everyday life (chatting with girls, going on dates, etc.) then I tend to hang better.  I went through a part of my life when I pretty much tucked that stuff away...that's when I developed Peyronies Disease...go figure.
[/quote]

I understand that to mean that you were not sexually active just before you developed Peyronies.  That is interesting--I came down with mine after several weeks of no activity.  My first real  erection after that period involved  a strange pain which felt as if I was overfilled, but I know now was the start of Peyronies Disease.

Dillon

[kevin]

Tim:

Regarding your conclusion:  "..I am going to focus on antioxidant therapy, and stop taking arginine for now .."

I'm a little confused about why it is feared that arginase would be increased by a person taking L-Arginine.  Would the body necessarily produce more of an enzyme in response to an increase in the substrate (amino acid) that it acts upon?  From my own lactose intolerance I know that even when taking in large amounts of lactose, i.e. drinking lots of milk, my lactase production remains nill.  (The bacteria in my gut that feed on the milk sugar go wild, of course!)

The articles, as you warned, went over my head.  I'll accept their warning that arginase may be a bad actor in Peyronie's cases, but I need to understand better why levels of that enzyme would be determined by the  levels of arginine.  I would expect only the reverse to be true: that arginase will reduce levels of arginine, and that this, in fact, could explain how the former does its harm - by removing something beneficial from the scene.  

[Tim468]

Hi Kevin,

Arginine is the substrate for the enzyme arginase. Thus, arginase creates proline which in turn leads to collagen production. If one already has increased levels of aginase (for any reason) than that is the fate of any ingested or endogenous arginine - it shunts to proline and collagen. In that situation, all that extra arginine does is lead to more collagen. IOW, if there is a surplus of arginase - all more arginine does is create more collagen.

Thus, the issue is not how much arginine do you have, but how much arginase do you have. If arginase is elevated, the all the arginine does is become collagen. If the arginase is lowered, the the arginine follows the other pathway towards NO and citrulline.

So the key to figuring this system out is in recognizing that not only should you try to force the production of NO by adding the substrate arginine, you have to simultaneously STOP the production of collagen by reducing arginase levels. The key concept to get is that Nitric Oxide Synthase (NOS) competes with arginase for the arginine - that arginine has at least two different fates available to it. Which way it goes depends on arginase, and arginase in turn depends on TGF. So I think the key for me will be to first turn off TGF production somehow (with pentox or pirfenidone) and then to add arginine to fuel NO production.

I hope that clarifies it a bit.

Tim

[myrddin]

Rico,

I don't have a supply of Korean Ginseng right now, but what I used a couple months ago was one of the only kinds available in the supplements area of my local Whole Foods grocery store.  Sorry, I can't recall the brand.  I recall it was a white bottle with a bright green lid, though.

I filled my Pentox perscription, so here's the deal: It's a generic, lavender tablet with "mylan" inscribed on it.  There are 180 pills (400 mg ea.) in the bottle, refillable 3 times over the next year.  Seems like a fairly large supply, especially since the starting dosage I'm on is 2 pills per day.  After I'm sure I tolerate it well (no/low side effects), I can bump that up to 3 per day max.  I'm also taking my usual Vit E, L-Arginine, and ALC.  I've ceased taking Propolis for now.

Like I said before, I won't be adding the Red Ginseng unless I feel like I need more erections at night.  Currently that's not a problem.

I keep everyone posted if I notice any progress, good or bad.