ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[George999]

Rico, I have to tell you that if I could name one thing that has helped me more than anything else with my Peyronies, it has been the full spectrum vitamin E.  I know I'm going to get a tounge lashing from ComeBackid on this, but seriously, once I got off the synthetic E and on to the premium stuff I could really see the effect.  But who knows, Peyronies is different for each person.  In some cases it just seems to spontaneously go away, so I can't for sure say what it was that really helped me.  But the best progress came with the switch in Vitamin E, before I started on all the other stuff I am taking.  So, as I told you in the private message, after 29 months with Peyronies, I am now nearly free of it.  Its not completely gone, but I can't really feel the plaque itself anymore and the slight band that is left is so improved it no longer acts as a hinge and so I am not reinjuring it all the time and the inflamation is gone completely.  So I just thank God for his mercy in my case.  Like I say, it is not gone completely, but it is no longer a problem in any sense and I am very grateful for that.  And I am still working on making it better.   I do have a lump in a completely different location down on the side of the shaft that developed later, which seems Peyronies like, but doesn't cause any deformation with erections.  It would be nice if that would go away also.  I also have a curious little scar on the back of my hand that developed right after the Peyronies, but it too is practically gone now.

[Rico]

George I love these stories....a Victory Lap is in order or mayb a Victory Pump tonight:)....

There is hope...and you are so knowledgeable on supplements and seem to have taken the bull by the horn(another one for Liam:)....sort to speak, with a angle on health and nutrition...interesting....I have been looking at a full spectrum E for sometime at GNC and will give it a go....but really my three prong approach is 1. diet  2. exercise  3. VED/thacker formula      I don't know if I need the dmso/apple cider/castor oil    I just don't see how it can hurt me....

Rico

[whatitdo]

I am 27 yrs old and recently got diagnosed with Peyronies Disease.  My urologist precribed colchicine(sp?).  Unfortunately, I wasn't exactly honest with him about how much I drink.  Apparently, colchicine and alcohol do not mix (apparently, this combo can cause "gastrointestinal toxicity"; I'll pass on that).  I'd rather not have to quit drinking, but do I have a choice? I also don't want the Peyronies Disease to get worse.  Any suggestions?  Are there alternative drugs that I may be able to drink with.  I know it's pitiful, but it's a dilemma I'll have to face one way or the other.

[misterb]

I currently take 500mg of GNC L-Arginine twice daily, is that enough? I should note that I don't have ED. I also take GNC Mega Men Sport vitamins, GNC Natural E 400 (1 softgel daily), and GNC Acetyl-L-Carnitine (1g twice daily), all with food.

[Tim468]

Dear Whattodo:

Just an observation. If you are willing to compromise the health of your penis (and presumably sex life) in order to keep on drinking, then that suggests that you have a drinking problem. Addiction versus habits or suchlike can often be differentiated by a couple of features. First, they harm us, and secondly, we are unable to stop them when we want to. It might be worth it to examine your thoughts about the value of alcohol in your life, such that you are asking for a way to avoid a medication, or to find one that is compatible with alcohol.

That said and done, I might add that colchicine has had a variety of reports (but few here) on how good it is. In general, it seems to have some side effects and to not get impressive results. However, it does make sense to try in some situations. Perhaps your doctor had a reason for prescribing it.

What counts is that you are trying to get better. All of us are working on that - stick around and I am sure that you will find something that will help you.

Tim

[whatitdo]

Well, you hit the nail on the head there.  Obviously, alcohol plays a larger part in my life than it should.  I don't need anybody to tell me that.  Maybe this situation is what I need.    

[George999]

Here is some interesting research on Vitamin C.  I found it quite interesting and hope that some of you will as well:

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/news/vitc_lipid.html

Also, note this about Vitamin E:

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/newsarch/2004/Jan04/cereal.htm

Perhaps it might explain why Vitamin E supplements are not working for some people.

[ComeBacKid]

Whatitdo,

Just being a recent college grade myself I was headed down the path of drinking to much, its amazing, I started taking acetyl l carnitine to treat peyronies and my urge to drink vanished.  I then later found a study that I can't currently find but will look for that said it can help people stop alcohol addictions.  If I find it I will post it for everyone to see but can't make any promises.  Acetyl L Carnitine can't hurt you and is a peyronies treatment, I'd get on that it may help with your drinking, I know what its like to want to buy a 40 or  six pack and race back to ones dorm to start drinking, and do this 3 days a week, however my friends were worse than me, I suppose this was a college phase as I haven't drank in months.  Check out the ALC.

Misterb,

I take 500mg of L Arginine twice daily, you could probably take 1000mg or even 1500mg twice daily if you wanted, I think some people here are on much more than myself.

ComeBackid

[flexor]

As guidance for the amount of L-arginine, among a slew of references posted by George a while back, is this one, reporting of the use of L-arginine and pycnogenol for ED (see George's post no 691):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12851125&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_DocSum

•   Stanislavov R,
•   Nikolova V.

Seminological Laboratory SBALAG, Maichin Dom, Sofia, Bulgaria. rstanik@abv.bg

Penile erection requires the relaxation of the cavernous smooth muscle, which is triggered by nitric oxide (NO). We investigated the possibility of overcoming erectile dysfunction (ED) by increasing the amounts of endogenous NO. For this purpose, we orally administered Pycnogenol, because it is known to increase production of NO by nitric oxide syntase together with L-arginine as substrate for this enzyme. The study included 40 men, aged 25-45 years, without confirmed organic erectile dysfunction. Throughout the 3-month trial period, patients received 3 ampoules Sargenor a day, a drinkable solution of the dipeptide arginyl aspartate (equivalent to 1.7 g L-arginine per day). During the second month, patients were additionally supplemented with 40 mg Pycnogenol two times per day; during the third month, the daily dosage was increased to three 40-mg Pycnogenol tablets. We obtained a sexual function questionnaire and a sexual activity diary from each patient. After 1 month of treatment with L-arginine, a statistically nonsignificant number of 2 patients (5%) experienced a normal erection. Treatment with a combination of L-arginine and Pycnogenol for the following month increased the number of men with restored sexual ability to 80%. Finally, after the third month of treatment, 92.5% of the men experienced a normal erection. We conclude that oral administration of L-arginine in combination with Pycnogenol causes a significant improvement in sexual function in men with ED without any side effects.

[Rico]

I have been taking pycnogenol with arginine....I use to take OPC which was a powder forum mix...billberry, grapes seed and pine bark, great for circulation...many health benefits....

I cycled off the mix blend of xyience I was using (NOX-CG3)...it does have creatine in it.... I will say that as far as erections go, this stuff really works and fast.... better than when I have been mixing just L-arginine with pycnogenol....

I really believe in pycnogenol and eating a lot of fruit, my plaque is shrinking right now:).... I will post more on this later....

I have a business call that just came in....

Rico

[Hawk]

Associates of Linus Pauling that champion his findings recommend vitamin C and Lysine since this combination is the major building blocks of collagen.  They also often recommend C-Ester not to be confused with Ester C.  C-Ester is both oil/water soluble and is theorized to have greater tissue availability.  The theory advanced for heart disease is that damaged arterial walls develop plaque build-up in an attempt to repair micro damage.  This is a short term fix that becomes a long -term problem.  C and L-lysine are thought to repair and prevent damage and stop plaque deposits.  This combo is also supposed to slow or prevent cancer spread by interfering with the cancer enzyme that breaks down collagen to migrate through blood vessels allowing the cancer to metastasized to other body areas.

The problem is that I have read that at least a few doctors suspect that this collagen boost from C/L-lysine, will contribute to the production of the the collagen that is the building block of Peyronies Disease scare tissue.  I can say that I was on large divided doses of l-lysine and vitamin C when I developed Peyronies Disease.  I was also on 600 IU of all natural mixed tocopherol Vitamin E which did nothing to prevent or stop this process of Peyronies Disease as far as I can tell.

I make no claim for the value of C/L-lysine and none for the c/lysine contribution to Peyronies Disease.  I am only sharing my limited information.  

A foot note is that within the last 2 years, it has been demonstrated that doses of vitamin C over 500 mg daily can significantly worsen osteoarthritis.  Mine did worsen both by personal observation and bone scan data.  The same findings indicate that vitamin C helps rheumatoid arthritis.

[Rico]

Hawk,

That was a good post on C and Lysine, It may seem to mega dose anything can throw you off balance.... but to supplement might make more sense....

George I did pick up  some  ISOMER E tm   at gnc, it is there brand...it is the total tocopherols blend plus toco-rich....  24.99 for 60 tablets....  

I also pick up two new cans of my xyience NOX CG3   I will go on another six week cycle..... I have been cycling off for 10 days.... I did pick up some L-arginine and try them with pycnogenol, but I wasn't getting the same effect...it might be the delivery system also, the xyience is powder forum and assimilates quickly....or maybe I haven't been in much of a sex mood either??

I don't want to jump over to the dmso thread, since my ved, supplements and dmso I'm doing together....my plaque has shrunk...just started to this week...in about half...it was on the dorsal...I have been doing  a drip of dmso on top of it for about a month or so....my unit is use to the dmso, it doesn't burn it anymore....I went and picked up two more bottles today, but they didn't have the 99.9, so I had to get the 90% and I also picked up msm cream and dmso/aloe cream 70/30%....the msm supposes to go through the skin with lipsome(sp), someone else has been using it on the forum....

My unit is looking good flaccid, and plaque has shrunk some, I haven't gotten a real erection lately, not thinking about sex right now....I have been pumping and dripping dmso and working and exercising, but I feel good with the plaque shrinking, anyway I will keep all updated...I feel I have this on the ropes now and I'm going to pound it hard, don't grab the neck tie, but the throat!!!!!

Rico

[misterb]

Pycnogenol promotes collagen synthesis. Wouldn't that be a bad thing for us?  

[Rico]

misterb,

It is the combination of c and lysine that may boost collagen.....not pycnogenols....I wouldn't load up on lysine and c myself....supplement means supplement....your daily needs....pycnogenols are great for you....blueberries, bilberries, grape seed or red wine extract, or red wine:).... french maritime pine bark....great for circulation....to me it is like taking ornithine with arginine a precursor or enhancer of the effect...it is why I believe the blends on the market for body builders work so well, science behind them, years of research and trial and error...I read the post from the bodybuilders on forums who like this forum have no affiliation to the companies, plus from my own experience...George knows his stuff and does some research and I do listen, but you have to remember we throw things out to be looked at by more than one pair of eyes....such as Hawk's educated thoughts on the last thoughts on lysine and c...this is a think tank....take what you can and add to it for all of us to share....we need young quick minds also to post like yours.....

Take care and keep reading....

Rico

[George999]

I think you will find two conflicting perspectives here on this forum concerning collagen synthesis.  One perspective is that anything that promotes collagen is bad, because collagen is the root of the problem with peyronies.  The other perspective, which is the one that I personally ascribe to, is that collagen synthesis is not a bad thing since it is a normal and major human biological function.  The problem as I see it is that something has gone wrong with the normal collagen sythesis process.  And that could just as easily be too little collagen synthesis as too much.  Collagen is a major building block for virtually all types of tissue.  Its the combination of collagen and elastin that virtually hold all our body tissues together.  And all of those tissues are constantly rebuilding themselves through a process known as collagen turnover (tissue remodeling).  That is a major component of the continual healing process that goes on in the body.  Collagen is also a major problem in the case of cardio vascular disease and yet you will find people who swear they were cured via Pauling's collagen enhancing therapy.  So I would submit at this point that this is an open question and each person on this forum needs to consider all of the input on both sides of the issue and make a choice.  But the bottom line then becomes that every supplement mentioned on this forum carries some sort of risk potential.  It is up to you folks as individuals to make the decisions as to which risks you are willing to accept and which you are not.  As for me, I am doing a lot of stuff for both my peyronies (which is almost gone) and my hypertension (which is very alive and active).  What I am not going to do is sit around and do nothing. - George

[George999]

I would certainly agree that large doses of Vitamin C can be bad in a number of ways.  The problem in the case of Vitamin C is that the human body can only process a certain amount of it in a given period of time.  The rest is waste in the form of elevated levels of ascorbic acid floating around in the bloodstream that the kidneys do their best to dispose of.  The solution as I see it, as I have previously expressed, is a time release form of C that makes sure that blood levels of C are limited to a healthy level so that the C can be assimilated and so that it does not end up actually doing damage instead of providing benefit.   Conventional Vitamin C passes throught the body very quickly.  It goes from the stomach to the bloodstream to the bladder to the toilet.  I believe that time or sustained release formulations are a far better way of delivering Vitamin C.  If there is a study out showing Vitmain C-Ester to be significantly more assimilatable that convenal C, I would like to see a link for that.  

Vitamin E has its own unique issues.  There is at least some evidence that most of the routine Vitamin E supplementation that people are doing is ending up going right down the toilet bowel as well.  So if a particular supplement is not working, before we throw the baby out with the bathwater, we have to ask "Is my body even assimilating the stuff I am taking, and if not, why not?".   Similarly, if a supplement is making things worse, you had better stop taking the supplement, thats a given.  But you also have to ask, what else might be wrong with my body that is causing that reaction.  Initially, for example, I got a terrible reaction to L-Arginine.  I quite it and talked to a doctor about it.  I was basically told, just don't take anymore of it.  So I went to another doctor who felt she knew what the problem was and medicated me at a very low level for that problem.  Now I am taking twice as much L-Arginine as what was causing me a problem before and now I no longer have the problem with it.  So my point is, many of these issues are extremely complex, and thats why most doctors don't like to deal with them.  But I am willing to take calculated risks.  I am allergic to sulfa (people die from that, by the way).  People who are allergic to sulfa aren't supposed to take thiazide.  But I am cautiously taking thiazide because I respect its capabilities.  I'm willing to take the risk to receive the potential benefit.  Thats the bottom line when it comes to drugs and supplements.

There are a lot of differing opinions on all of these various supplements being voiced here on this forum and this amounts to a healthy discussion.  We each have a unique perspective and experience and are all trying to articulate our concerns as best we can.  It is then up to the reader to consider all the different viewpoints, discuss the issues with your trusted healthcare providers and make a decision as to an appropriate course of treatment.  There are a lot of options and a lot of substances and techniques with potential benefits.  What works for one person may not work for another.  But the important thing is that you start from here, follow through with your own personal research and professional consultations and take a course of action.  And if that isn't working, make some modifications in your regimin until you start to see results.  Personally, I am seeing the results, but I'm not going to give up here.  I'm going to keep going until my health problems are resolved.

[misterb]

I agree with both perspectives. Collagen synthesis is indeed a necessary biological function, but it's not been good to the penises attached to those of us on this forum. I had not even heard of pycnogenol until Rico's post earlier today and I decided to look into it. During that research, I came across this statement:
The anti-ageing properties of pycnogenol are well known in Europe, where it is considered a cosmetic in a tablet and is referred to as the 'youth nutrient'. It binds to and reactivates damaged collagen in the skin.
and I didn't like the part about collagen being reactivated, damaged or otherwise, so I thought I would mention it. I'm trying to come up with the best possible combination of supplements for me to take and growing more confused by the minute. I don't have access to a professional to discuss this with until I find another urologist, the only one I've seen so far doesn't subscribe to any theories other than surgical correction and my goal is to prevent that from ever becoming necessary. So in the meantime, I only have this forum and internet research to go by in making a determination. Thankfully there's lots of good info here and I believe I'm heading in the right direction.

[George999]

Hey guys, aren't there some good doctors out here on the west coast that misterb might look into?  I think I've seen the names of some top research/medical school/center urologists go by on this forum who definately go with non-surgical stuff like pentox etc.  Can't anybody come up with some potential good connections for misterb?

[misterb]

George, I really need someone closer to my home here on the eastern side of the country so I can have the benefit of follow-up visits. I can't afford many trips out west. Thanks.  

[Rico]

Forum members,

Sometimes I wonder if we can over think collagen...not that is a bad thing to think:)..... and I know there are different levels of peyronies, the "A" typical injury with scar tissue or plaque that replaces the spot of tissue in the tunica which also replaces it's elastic properties...hence a bent unit....

Now this is really a normal process of the body to replace a injured area with scar tissue....if this was on your ass your wouldn't even think about it, and once it is stable, or they say 90% developed in the first six weeks...it is all a moot point what ones does as far as prevention of scar tissue....how to soften or dissolve it and then the what seems to be the hardest thing to do is bring back the elastic properties of the tissue...

Once the tear or hole is plugged up, it is done....

Now the other forum of peyronies where your whole tunica is attacked is a vascular or immune disorder....it's seems a much smaller but also a much needed case to be looked at, and very important to figure out where you are at, so you can the proper steps to recovery, one size does not fit all.....take two Vitiamin E's and call me in the morning has to change as the Urologist battle cry!!

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico,

You have made a few statements that if true,  are different than information I currently have and would constitute a new understanding of Peyronies Disease.  I am interested in your evidence.  

1. Several statements such as; Pentox is really a wicked or risky drug.  What is this based on?  What drugs are you comparing it to?

2. You often refer to Type "A" typical Peyronies Disease.  I know of no confirmation of a type A, B or any other verifiable separate types of Peyronies Disease.  Some of us speculate that Peyronies Disease varies in type instead of variations in degree or course of progress, but I know of NO body of evidence that establishes this much less identifies the types.  I also have a very different understanding of Peyronies Disease from an injury than the one you present.  You suggest Peyronies Disease from an injury is normal scaring that patches the hole and stops.  That would not be Peyronies Disease in any form as I understand Peyronie's.  It would be normal wound healing.  If I can make a loose analogy with a keloid, a keloid may start with an injury but it does not patch a hole and stop.  It overruns normal, healthy, uninjured, tissue.  In fact if you look at the picture of scaring from a hair follicle in the "Resource section" you will see that what was triggered by one follicle overran the entire chest with scar tissue.  https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,155.msg1364.html#msg1364 click on the attachment in document 2 0f 3 and look at the photos.  In my own case, scar tissue that started from injections in the base of the penis have caused scar tissue several inches away in the last 1/4 of the shaft over a year after injections were discontinued. You also indicate the "other type" of Peyronies Disease is a vascular disease.  I have never heard this before from anyone and I am very interested in your reference for this.

When I hear new things, I am always interested in whether someone has new information i have missed of if they are making assumptions without making it real clear.

[George999]

Have you ever thought of calling the office of one of these well known guys out here and asking if they can REFER you to someone back east who might be lesser known, but might be following the lead of one of these top guys out west here?  Just a thought.

[misterb]

George, the guy I already went to is supposedly one of the best in the whole country and judging from his knowledge and professionalism, I'd have to agree. That's why I was so discouraged by his opinion that non-surgical treatments don't work. It's tough hearing that from one of the top guys in the field. The fact that I already have this at a young age makes me extremely worried for the future, so I'm intent on taking action now to try to head this thing off at the pass, so to speak. I'd certainly be willing to give it a shot. If you know who is leading the way out there as far as non-surgical treatments, please post here or PM me and I'll get in touch with them. I appreciate all the help and encouragement I've received here. Thanks, guys.

[Rico]

Hawk,

I agree with you that I shouldn't just shoot off without facts...I think I was talking to Tim about trying a better approach and giving hisself some self care, and maybe trying OPC, which is great for circulation....I know Pentoxifylline changes the shape of red blood cells in your blood, allowing them to open up your veins and improves your circulation....I said, this stuff is nasty.....to me if you can do this with a more natural product and get the same results...it just seems less intrusive to ones over all health...

My Urologist told me I had "A" typical peyronies, this is where I came up with this...plus when I look at the "A" typical pictures this is what I see....Plaque on dorsal....

Dr. Levine states that there are two kinds of peyronies and says one which is more of a injury and the other is vascular condition which attacks the whole tunica....

When a scar is developed it always adds more scar tissue than it needs to repair the scar....a 1.6cm will be 3cm....now if it just keeps going, then the inflammation isn't turned off, maybe a immune disorder, underlying problems....

If someone has a 90 degree candy cane..or a downward bend or 75 degrees...or a total hard tunica that has cause ED....or a left bend of only 5 degrees, or a hour glass that buckles...or lost of 3 inches when he had only 4 to start with...too me these are different in some degree of the condition....I might think that if a doctor had a patient that came in with serve pain and a 90 degree bend, he might put him on something to stop the pain, maybe pentox works for this....or the combination or arginine/pentox/viagra.....

I not going to metion names and believe me, I want wellness for everyone on here, but I feel some are taking more drugs than they need....I feel Dr. Tim is a giver like I wrote to him, and he was thinking of pentox...I was talking to him, I feel I have got to know him on here....I just felt he should go more of a natural route, total wellness....take some Tim time, quit giving and start taking a little for himself and not medicate the condition, but look at a more of a total life style change....OPC's are wonderful and natural way to increase circulation...and they Might just be as good as Pentox...without any side effects...just giving someone a choice.....

I have never had pain with my peyronies, I read about some that have lots of pain.....I guess I feel to some degree the way ones treats his condition of peyronies would be different...this is my opinion....if I didn't have lost of size, I wouldn't be too concern with my peyronies, the plaque seems to be getting smaller, no pain, and slight upward curve, might hit the G spot perfect now:)... but the lost of two inches...I would be happy with one back....so this is what my goal is....so I took a step to the left and adjust for my condition...VED seems to be the best option....pentox or the other drugs will not bring back lost size....

So I would like to say again that when I said Pentox is nasty....it might be the drug for some...it is no magic pill for all peyronies....it wouldn't be my choice for circulation improvement...It wasn't a very good thing for me to say in that loose way....

Do I feel there are several forms of peyronies, I feel that all are condition to some degree are in several different stages and shapes and need to be address accordingly....

Thank you for bringing to my attention about my Pentox comment, it wasn't the right way to express it and I wouldn't want to miss lead anyone on this treatment....and I have never taken it...or know anyone who has...

Best regards,

Rico

[George999]

misterb, I seem to remember reading good reviews about this guy, perhaps someone else here can comment.

http://urology.ucsf.edu/faculty/facLue.html

Anyone around know how he is on non-surgical approaches?  He is supposed to be very innovative.  Perhaps he knows someone in your area who could help you.  Wishing you the best.

- George

[ComeBacKid]

Before my doctor would prescribe me pentox he investigated it and read about it, looking out for my best interests.  He confirmed to me that pentox is a very safe drug to take, thus far taking it I have seen absolutely no side effects.  I have noticied my penis is more "fuller," in the flaccid state, and seems to be more elastic.  My Dr. confirmed that it will allow the blood to soak into the tissues better, thus increasing oxygenation.  I have not studied the details of exactly what it does and how it effects blood cells and tissue, but I must say I've been happy so far taking this drug.  I currently take 400mg 3 times daily with food.

ComeBackid

[Rico]

ComeBackid,

What did you doctor say about the mixing of trazedone you are taking with pentox? Does he know you are taking this also? Are you taking viagra also? I think you take alc and arginine...just curious if he has had anyone who is taking pentox with trazedone....

Best regards,

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

Rico,

He is well aware I'm on trazodone and pentox since he prescribed both.  He told me they both work by different mechanisms and it wouldn't be a problem to take both at the same time, remember I am on a 25mg dosage at night of trazodone, a very small amount.  Yes your correct I also take ALC and L arginine, but I may cut out the ALC, have been on it for 5 months and it has not helped my curve, it did take pain away at the beginning of that 5 months, thats why I continue to take it.

ComeBackid

[Rico]

ComeBackid,

I was just wondering, I figure he prescribe both, I know they are mixing pentox/arginine/viagra..... are you doing viagra? I'm trying to get my arms around there thought on these drugs mixed together, they all seem to be somewhat along the same path, circulation....and maybe antifibro...

I know you bought the dmso and acv and castor, are you doing this also and how is your VED doing?

I hope all is well with you....take care..

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

Rico,

I am not using thackers, I just tried it out one day, I did not get garlic breath at all like almost everyone told me I would, however I'm still not convinced thackers formula is totally safe.  We don't have much data on it or know anything about it, plus I have a very unique scar inside of me, its not really a plaque, its hardened, I'm going to get an ultra sound to first see if its a calcification or not, then go from there.

I'm not currently taking viagra either, I don't have $300 and some odd dollars per month, and I can't get coverage through my insurance.  I've been taking ALC for five months, it did nothing except take away pain and I can't even say for sure it did that, I may drop it soon.  I'm taking the pentox, trazodone, L Arginine, and doing the VED daily.  The pentox definately made a difference as soon as I started taking it, it seems to give me back some lost size in the flaccid state, it also seems to take away that hardness in my penis, its been deemed safe by many doctors.  In regards to viagra, I'm sure it couldn't hurt, if you read the Ask the Doctor section on the APDA site you will see Dr. Levine says none of his patients got worse while taking it, and the NO acts as an anti - fibrotic drug as Tim has been saying.  I think L Arginine, Pentox, and Viagra would be an excellent protocol, especially since no one else has anything better to offer. If I could afford the viagra I would take it, although I would not take viagra with trazodone at the same time.

ComeBackid

[Rico]

Dear forum members...

www.siberiantigernaturals.com  is one site that has some good information on oils....I have really boosted my omega three(fish oil).... and I use a lot of Olive oil daily...up to a 1/4 cup.... I dip all my veggies bread and make my own salad dressing.... omega three(fish oil) not only increases your circulation but it also thought to break down fibrin(scar tissue)...it is great for over all heart health.....this is one supplement I feel is something everyone should be looking at and putting into your diet....when you go to this site, click on omega three also... very good read...

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico,

Thanks for your reply and clarification.  I want to address a few of your responses on this important topic.  I am probably in the top 1% in use of natural foods, organic, exercise, and nutrients, but fair is fair.

Hawk,
..I know Pentoxifylline changes the shape of red blood cells in your blood, allowing them to open up your veins and improves your circulation....I said, this stuff is nasty.....to me if you can do this with a more natural product and get the same results..

Ricco, opium is natural, as is weed, peyote cactus, as are many health store products that have done great harm.  We can not assume "natural is good and "drugs" are nasty, especially since the dividing line is pretty blurred.  People in 28 states are in the hospital from spinach.

My Urologist told me I had "A" typical peyronies, this is where I came up with this...plus when I look at the "A" typical pictures this is what I see....Plaque on dorsal....

Ricco, I think there is some miscommunication here.  Rather than labeling Peyronie's Disease into types, "A", "B", etc (which I have never heard of) I am sure that your doctor actually said you have an atypical case of Peyronie's Disease.  The dictionary defines the word atypical as: unusual or irregular.  In other words he was saying, "Your Peyronie's is not typical for this disease" rather than saying it is typical type "A"  I have often heard of atypical Peyronie's.  I have never heard of "A" typical Peyronie's.  If anyone knows of any such recognized classification please post a direct quote and a link.

I feel some are taking more drugs than they need....

Rico, you can feel that way or even post that you feel that way.  Keep in mind that those people are under the care of a trained prescribing physician that thinks they are NOT taking more drugs than they need.  We all post opinions here are are welcome to do so but it should be very clear if we are speaking from medical training, other evidence, or just general feelings.

So I would like to say again that when I said Pentox is nasty....it might be the drug for some...it is no magic pill for all peyronies....it wouldn't be my choice for circulation improvement...It wasn't a very good thing for me to say in that loose way....thank you for bringing to my attention about my Pentox comment, it wasn't the right way to express it and I wouldn't want to miss lead anyone on this treatment....and I have never taken it...or know anyone who has...

Thanks for this clarification.  It is so important, especially since you post so frequently.  I wanted to know if you had information I did not have.  Since you got my attention I would guess many "members and guests" thought you had real information on the dangers of Pentox.  Now that you make it clear that they are opinions based on no studies, no reports from others, and no personal experience, it clarifies things for me and hopefully others.  We can conclude that there is no evidence that Pentox is any more "nasty" than any of the many thousands of prescription drugs, over-the counter drugs, devices, and many natural substances.

Hang in there and good luck in your continuing search.

[Rico]

Hawk,

I will say that my first thoughts on pentox were here is another drug like colchicine or potaba, and I guess if you have to take something that is going to turn your stomach or make you live in the bathroom..then I feel it is nasty...I have heard many comments on these two drugs..and my doctor told me I probally wouldn't be able to stomach potaba.....it was wrong to jump to the same conclusion with pentox...maybe the name pentoxifylline just didn't sound like something I wanted to eat:)....
Maybe pentox/arginine/Viagra is something to look at....I know they stumbled on Viagra looking for high blood pressure and all of a sudden these college kids started to get erection....more of a pragmatic approach to peyronies....hit and miss...and I will say that if I had extreme pain and curve, this would be a choice I would look at with alc.....maybe alc and arginine first...if my doctor would of told me with confidence that this or any combo was a good try, I would of try it....well I take that back, he said if your stomach could take it, he would try potaba, I declined....

I will add too that I'm putting dmso/avc/Castor oil on my unit everyday...talk about out there...that is not natural at all...so I have no room to be judgemental on one's choice of treatment....

When my doctor told me I had a atypical case of peyronies, I looked at him and said, why is it usual? He said, no it is normal....or the way most peyronies patience have there plaque.....it is somewhat of a oxy moron...in the medical field when they describe cancerous cells they say atypical, meaning unusual for regular cells, atypical case is a case of usual peyronies...if that makes any sense:).....

I can sum up peyronies in one catergory for all... "It Sucks" !

I do feel that the mechanical approach with some sort of medicine to soften the plaque or reduce it and mechanically remolding the plaque has a chance to help many of us....we need to explore and hedge are bet on recovery as much as possible....I like this think tank, don't leave a rock unturned.....plus what might not work for someone, might be the answer for someone else....

Well I making some halibut, salad with lots of Olive oil and brown rice....and a fruit compote" bon appetite'

Rico

[Rico]

Dear forum members and guest:

I was trying to find information on pentox and mixing it with Viagra and the possible benefits....

The article I was reading "Types of medical therapy available to manage Erectile Dysfunction".......Here were three of the choices...

1. Sildenafil (Viagra)

2.Trazondone (Desyrel)

3. Trental (Pentoxifylline)

75% 50% 25% effective respectively.....

So you should get a erection about 150% of the time if you take all three...and hell throw in some arginine and you can use it to chop wood:)...

Everything I read about Viagra it says you shouldn't take everyday? But they do suggest Trazondone and Trental should be taken everyday and can all be taken together....

I guess it is all about blood flow...circulation heals.....it seems it Might be a way to stabilize a condition vs resolving the issue of the plaque...stop the inflammation....which would stop the pain...and with less inflammation...less curve....

The Viagra has me confused though, because of the need for stimulation and the four hour period of window opportunity....to take on daily basis when the company says not to take it daily???  

Best regards,

Rico

[Liam]

There are more recent studies indicating benefit from Viagra daily.  There was at least one commissioned by, you got it, ..... Pfizer.

Liam

[Rico]

Liam,

You are correct again....I did just down loaded  the most recent report(june 2006) by Pfizer....now they didn't say in it that taking it was beneficial everyday, but they said that one should not take more than the recommend dose for your ED condition 25, 50 or 100 mg.....per day.

It did say to have caution if you have Peyronies with using this drug.....

It it interesting to me that the drugs they shy away from for peyronies(ED Meds) are now the ones that seem to be the most promising...and VED is also a ED remedy.....or I should say a solution...for VED or Viagra doesn't cure but allows one to perform.....

I believe the Old Man was doing the VED for ED and he found it helped his peyronies.....correct me Old Man if I'm wrong...

There are two types of scientist or inventors in my book.... the pragmatic types and the formula driven types....I see that in personalities on this forum also....and I do believe they compliment each other....Albert Einstein was a formula driven person....Thomas Edison was pragmatic.....

The drugs they were using...colchicine, potaba and verapamil.....seem to be drugs of the formula driven...and now through trial and error and circumstance the pentox, trazdone, Viagra arginine are taking the lead....along with VED.... Once again all that were shun for peyronies patience..... maybe the cure or better results for the condition where there all the time?  The VED in itself(now for a short period of using it...10 days), I can tell is something one has to be very careful with, slow and steady is the word.....

Scar tissue does have blood flow, much less than regular tissue and the tunica is known to be low in blood also.....petox reduces ones red blood cells in size so in essence they become more slippery like and flow easier through ones system, especially where the vessel are small, like in the penis....Viagra being a vacillator and trazdone working on this principle but on a lesser matter....arginine also....my thought to why they have the mix is to give a more prominent effect with the viagra, but because it only last for about four hours to enhance this with the pentox which will last all day and come at it from a somewhat different approach(reducing of red cells).... the arginine is taken to supplements the same effects of the Viagra when you are awake and you take during the day....so you are getting a 24/7 circulation improvement....which should help promote healing....

Now if one would start doing core training or over all health and taking OPC's and a general good diet along with VED exercising, one might be able to gain more conditioning reversal of peyronies...

From a scar healing or remolding stand, this approach now makes sense to me....dmso has been reported to cause vacillation also...but I would think for short peroids......I guess it comes down to each case and what we feel comfortable with.....

I really wouldn't be surprise now if the Urologist will be saying to patience in the future the opposite to what they have said yesterday....if you have peyronies...treat is as you had ED.......

Best regards,

Rico

[Tim468]

Rico: >>Scar tissue does have blood flow, much less than regular tissue and the tunica is known to be low in blood also.....petox reduces ones red blood cells in size so in essence they become more slippery like and flow easier through ones system, especially where the vessel are small, like in the penis....Viagra being a vacillator and trazdone working on this principle but on a lesser matter....arginine also....my thought to why they have the mix is to give a more prominent effect with the viagra, but because it only last for about four hours to enhance this with the pentox which will last all day and come at it from a somewhat different approach(reducing of red cells).... the arginine is taken to supplements the same effects of the Viagra when you are awake and you take during the day....so you are getting a 24/7 circulation improvement....which should help promote healing....
<<

Fascinating stuff... Rico, many of the assertions in your post are correct - for instance, pentox does affect red cell deformitbility and blood viscosity (at least after transfusion it does - but that blood has EDTA added... but I digress).  My point is that although some of these facts are correct, I do not believe that you are putting the facts together properly. Also, some of the facts are basicly incorrect too (like blood vessel size in the penis - the vessels that go through the tunica that drain the corpus Cavernosum  (CC) are not smaller - but they are pinched off during erection which allows the trapping of blood in the sinusiods that form the CC.

The reason that pentox is used is to allow it to block the effects of Transforming Growth Factor BEta (TGF-B). The reason that Viagra is used is to promote the iNOS pathways that exert an anti-inflamatory effect - NOT to promote blood flow. Similarly, arginine is an NO donor to facilitate an anti-inflammatory effect. The rationale behind the uses of thes drugs is carefully delineated in the discussions in the articles that intorduced them into the clinical literature of Peyronies Disease. I will append two such discussions here.

We spend a lot of time focused here on blood flow. I think it is vitally important, but addressing that issue (blood flow) is NOT the rationale behind pentox/viagra/arginine therapy. Talking about blood flow is fine, but I wuld like those who come to this web site to know what the rationales actually are that are used by the scientists doing this work. Two such discussions regarding this is hereby included:

*****************
Article by Brant and Lue.

Discussion:

Pentoxifylline has been used in humans (in divided doses of 800–1600 mg per day) in a variety of inflammatory and fibrotic conditions, including radiation fibrosis,9–11 radiation proctitis,12 cystic fibrosis, radiation pneumonitis, steatohepatitis,13 epidural fibrosis,14 and osteoradionecrosis.15 Our dosage is derived from these other uses of pentoxifylline. The mechanism is not fully known; pentoxifylline blocks the transforming growth factor (TGF)-β1-mediated pathway of inflammation,  prevents deposition of collagen type I, and acts as a nonspecific PHOSPHODIESTERASE (PDE)
INHIBITOR. Valente et al. have demonstrated that both sildenafil and pentoxifylline reduce the plaque size in tunical fibrosis induced by injection of TGF-β 1.16 Encouraged by pentoxifylline's observed suppression of collagen production in Peyronie's cells in tissue culture, as well as its efficacy in other human fibrotic disorders, we have been offering patients treatment with pentoxifylline for Peyronie's disease since 2002.

Our patient used sildenafil before recovery of erectile function, and one might well question whether this played any role in either the pathogenesis or resolution of his disease process. Pentoxifylline has been shown to be a nonspecific PDE inhibitor, and PDE inhibitors have been shown to play a role in preventing fibrosis.17 However, sildenafil has been implicated in causing and preventing penile smoothmuscle fibrosis.18,19 At this time, there is a paucity of experimental data regarding PDE inhibition and fibrosis, compared with data regarding pentoxifylline and fibrosis, and so we feel that the patient's improvement was due to the effects of pentoxifylline rather than those of sildenafil. Although this case study does not represent a placebo-controlled study, the fact that there was objective resolution of the dorsal calcification leads us to believe that this is not due to the placebo effect or to spontaneous resolution. We continue to follow a growing series of patients with improved or resolved calcified plaques on follow-up ultrasound with concomitant improvement in clinical symptoms, as is the case with the patient presented in this case study. We have identified 16 patients so far, and will  present our data in the near future. Since pentoxifylline has been shown to inhibit fibrosis in humans and in animal models, we generally use it in patients who have evidence of ongoing inflammation (e.g. pain) or fibrosis (e.g. changing curvature). We have not generally used it for patients with chronic stable lesions or with heavy calcifications, since we presume these to be stable and less amenable
to pharmacologic intervention. We have seen improvement of this nature (full or partial resolution of calcified plaques) in approximately 2–3% of our patients. Stabilization of the disease process is common, but is far more difficult to distinguish from the natural history of the disease.

*****************

Article by Gonzalez-Cadavid

Discussion:

To our knowledge this is the first demonstration that PDE5 and 4 are both expressed in the human and rat normal tunica albuginea, and the respective Peyronies Disease and PDlike fibrotic plaques, as well as in the cell cultures obtained from these tissues. Our results are also the first published report on the inhibition of a TGFb1-induced fibrotic plaque in the rat model of Peyronies Disease, through the reduction of collagen deposition and possibly an increase in apoptosis of the resident fibroblasts and myofibroblasts, by long-term oral  administration of the respective PDE5 and cAMP-dependent PDE inhibitors, sildenafil and pentoxifylline, and the NOS substrate, L-arginine.

The in vitro effects of both PDE inhibitors and a cGMP analog, 8 Br-cGMP, on fibroblast cultures obtained from the human Peyronies Disease plaque, support the hypothesis that these agents may, at least in part, be effective against fibrosis by reducing the relative number of these fibroblasts/myofibroblasts through the induction of apoptosis of these cells. We also found that these compounds: (a) interfere with fibroblast differentiation into myofibroblasts, the cells that are key players in tissue fibrosis, and (b) down-regulate the synthesis of collagen I but not collagen III. The effects of sildenafil are probably exerted through the inhibition of PDE-5, and in the case of pentoxifylline through a cAMP-dependent PDE, potentially PDE4, although we cannot discard other mechanisms. We believe that our results may open a new approach for the treatment of Peyronies Disease and, by extension, tissue fibrosis, based on the use of PDE inhibitors and other enhancers of PDK activity, and possibly of compounds and biologicals that enhance NO synthesis.

Our results with the PDE inhibitors, whose main effects are to increase cGMP or cAMP levels [50], are a
natural extension of our previous work demonstrating the antifibrotic effects of NO [2,6,14], one of the main regulators of guanylyl cyclase, and hence of cGMP synthesis [29]. Both cGMP and cAMP participate to a certain extent in biochemical cross-talk, by mutually regulating their respective levels [51,52], so that even cAMP is in a way related to the NO-cGMP cascade. We have shown previously that iNOS is spontaneously induced in the human Peyronies Disease plaque and in the Peyronies Disease-like lesion in the rat model, increasing NO synthesis in these tissues, and that long-term blockade of iNOS by L-NIL intensified fibrosis in the rat lesion [2,6]. This led us to postulate that NO inhibits fibroblast differentiation into
myofibroblasts and reduces collagen synthesis based on our own results in the animal model of Peyronies Disease and the fibroblasts cultured from human TA and Peyronies Disease plaque.

The reduction of the fibrotic plaque we have now observed in vivo in animals receiving L-arginine coincides with its effects in preventing experimental ethanol-induced inflammatory and fibrotic changes in liver, kidney, lung, and cardiovascular system [52–57]. The action of Larginine is probably mediated by the stimulation of NOS activity, because although the endogenous levels of Larginine
in the rat penis appear to be above theKmof the pure recombinant enzyme, this does not take into account the interplay of factors that may increase the effectiveKm in vivo. This was previously shown by the increase of L-arginine levels in the penis and the improvement of erectile dysfunction in the aging rat by NOS stimulation achieved after a regimen of L-arginine administration similar to the one used in the current work, 2.2 g/kg/day [45]. This dose is within the range normally employed as
vasculoprotective, for long-term studies in the rat [56,57].

As to the PDE inhibitors themselves, our in vivo and in vitro results showing an inhibition of collagen synthesis and stimulation of apoptosis in the Peyronies Disease-like plaque and in Peyronies Disease cells by both sildenafil and pentoxifylline are in good agreement with the extensive use pentoxifylline as an antifibrotic agent in liver and vascular fibrosis [39,40,58,59]. The fact that the cGMP analog 8-BrcGMP inhibited collagen I synthesis and induced apoptosis in Peyronies Disease cells suggests that in the case of sildenafil the in vivo effects on the function of the fibroblasts/ myofibroblasts in the TA may be mediated by the elevation of cGMP levels. In addition, cGMP analogs, PKG activators, and PDE inhibitors have been shown to inhibit collagen synthesis [31,32], and induce apoptosis [33], and some of the PDE inhibitors like sulindac
sulfone (Exisulind) are effective as anticancer agents because of their intense pro-apoptotic action [37,38].

However, since pentoxifylline did not affect cGMP levels in the human Peyronies Disease fibroblasts, and the drug is considered to be a non-specific inhibitor of cAMP-PDE [60,61], and at least in some cell types does not affect cGMP levels [58], the increase in cAMP may also have played a role in the antifibrotic effects we observed with pentoxifylline. Whether this occurs via the inhibition of PDE4 present in TA and Peyronies Disease remains to be established with isoform-specific inhibitors like rolipram [50,61,62]. It should be noted that pentoxifylline may also act through its blockade of PDGF-induced activation of the mitogen
activated protein kinase system [62] and of other cytokine- mediated fibrogenic mechanisms [40].

Our daily dose of pentoxifylline is 1/5 of the oral dose normally employed in rats for the long-term treatment of fibrosis [58,59], and in the case of sildenafil, it is 1/2 to 1/7 of the chronic dosage used in recent studies in rats [63,64]. When our 10 mg/kg/day dose is translated into the equivalent dose in humans by correcting for differences in the body weight/skin area [65], it is roughly 1.5 mg/kg which is about the dose ingested by men with an on demand single 100 mg tablet. Our selected dose
was dispensed in 24 hours and not as a bolus administration, so that concentrations at a given time should be much lower, considering the short half-life (about 4-6 hours) of sildenafil. Therefore, the daily doses of the PDE inhibitors tested in the current work are not suprapharmacological or associated with toxicity. In addition, it may be possible that local administration of either L-arginine or the PDE inhibitors, e.g., by injection into the plaque or in vehicles able to traverse the skin and TA
may considerably reduce the effective dosage.

We do not know why administration of L-arginine, which should increase NO synthesis and hence cGMP
levels and has been shown to be effective in arresting the growth of the TGFB-1 induced plaque in the rat model of Peyronies Disease, failed to stimulate apoptosis, as could be expected from its effects increasing it in vivo in the smooth muscle of the pulmonary arteries [23,24]. However, the absence of a stimulation of the apoptotic index in the Peyronies Disease plaque by L-arginine may agree with the decrease in apoptosis observed in liver transplants which is in line with the anti-apoptotic effects of NO in certain conditions
and tissues [66]. In any case, not only cGMP but its down-stream compound in the NO-cGMP cascade,
PKG, is also effective in preventing fibrosis and remodeling in balloon-injury and arterial restenosis [32,34], as shown by gene transfer of the PKG cDNA in rats. However, despite this evidence for pentoxifylline and cGMP-PKG, we are not aware of reports on any antifibrotic action for the most widely used PDE inhibitor, sildenafil, that is specific for PDE5A, the main PDE protein detected in the corpora cavernosa [41,42].

Our results demonstrating the presence of PDE5A and PDE4 in the TA and Peyronies Disease plaque in the human and
rat, and in their respective fibroblast cultures, provide a rationale for the anti-fibrotic effects of PDE inhibitors on the Peyronies Disease animal model and on the Peyronies Disease cell cultures. The PDE5A1 and PDE5A2 proteins have been previously localized in human penile corpora cavernosa [43]. The PDE5A3 variant was also found in corpora cavernosa and confined to tissues with a smooth muscle or cardiac muscle component, and is twice as sensitive as PDE5A1 to sildenafil, but, as with PDE5A1 and 2, is subjected to transcriptional up-regulation by both cAMP and cGMP [49,67]. This has been postulated to imply that long-term treatment with sildenafil may induce partial resistance. As to PDE4, it is interesting that cAMP can activate PKG nearly as effectively as cGMP, so that eventually, the inhibition of PDE4 may end up causing PKG effects (e.g., counteracting fibrosis) similar to those exerted by as the inhibition of PDE5A.

In summary, we propose that pharmacological interventions aimed at elevating NO, cGMP, or PKG levels, and possibly cAMP, in the penis are potentially useful for the treatment of Peyronies Disease, and more speculatively, for other fibrotic conditions. This work has not addressed the question on whether this intervention would induce regression of an already well-formed plaque, but comparison of multiple gene expression profiles in human Peyronies Disease and the related Dupuytren
s disease suggests that both conditions are in a dynamic cell and protein turnover involving replication, differentiation, apoptosis,  and collagen and extracellular matrix synthesis and breakdown [8–10]. Therefore, modulation of any of these processes may eventually involute the plaque, as has been observed in generalized fibrotic conditions [68,69].

Tim

[Hawk]

Thank you Tim.  I too wanted to make the point that even in the case of ED after prostate surgery, that Viagra is prescribed at 1/4 of 100 mg tablet or 25 mg.  It is not the intent to effect erection and it has no slight impact on erections.  It is prescribed (according to the leading urologists that treated me)to prevent the consequences that come from no erections (fibrotic), and to encourage long term recovery by encouraging pathways necessary for long-term recovery.  I am not sure of the recommended dose used along with Pentox for Peyronie's, but I suspect it is a very low daily dose.  As you state, it is not for erection or blood flow but for the sole purpose to block Transforming Growth Factor Beta and reduce inflamation.  

Blood flow is good and can be promoted in many ways.  Blocking Transforming Growth Factor Beta however is only approached through the Pentox/Viagra/arginine combination.

Please forgive me for repeating in part what you already stated.  I also want to make the point that concluding these drugs are for blood flow, misses the point.  Also if my restatment is in error jump in and correct me.

[Rico]

Tim,

Thank you for the information....I will have to read it again...I will have to say my first past at it...well it sounds like they are going the long way around the barn.....to say we can't figure out the formula, but from a pragmatic sense it seems to work, hit and miss approach...there is nothing wrong with this, I feel most of the forum members have been using this approach since we have no good medical approaches to follow, Oh there is the take two Vit E and call me in 12 months.....

Now the more aggressive ones like I said seem to be moving towards the treatments for ED, or drugs that have been used for ED in the past and the present....along with mechanical approaches...

The article says it does not promote pentox if you are stable, only if you have pain or your curve is still in a inflammation phase....which I thought and brought up before that someone who is in pain or inflammation might be being prescribe pentox because of his stage in the peyronies, once again, we have different conditions...and this report does state this....

I will read it again several times, I'm not a doctore and by my English and grammar you can tell that I'm not schooled in medicine, but I can tell if someone is pissing on my back and tell me it raining....this report is full of holes like swiss cheese, I can't hag my hat on this, can you???

Pentox has been use for illness with small extremities like the hands and feet, it gets the blood to these areas....sometimes one wonders if you can over think somethings....or if the why is deeper than the actual fact of the remedy....oxygen is amazing thing.....just look at what peroxide does to a wound....just oxygen...amazing product...

Thanks for the articles....they have there rhyme and reason....I think it would be good for you to put it in the best layman terms as you can for everyone also....

Rico

[Rico]

Isn't that a fancy way of saying circulation or oxygen....this blocking of tgfb? When they say they don't know how things work?

Hawk I find this interesting....I hope my ignorance can be of some benifit to all in this research.....I'm always ready to learn something new....

Rico

[George999]

FYI - If any of you folks out there happen to be dealing with hypertension as well as peyronies as I am, Cozaar (losartan) and Hyzaar (losartan + thiazyde) inhibit TGF Beta as a secondary effect.  Pretty neat!  Lower your BP while you take care of your peyronies as well.  Synergy!

- George

[Tim468]

>>I will read it again several times, I'm not a doctore and by my English and grammar you can tell that I'm not schooled in medicine, but I can tell if someone is pissing on my back and tell me it raining....this report is full of holes like swiss cheese, I can't hag my hat on this, can you???<<

I want to be precise about what I say here. The quoted parts of articles are "Discussions". When one writes a discussion it is aimed at dealing with criticism. The author needs to say what they think, and also address what they know others are thinking (especially those who might criticise). Therefore, in a discussion (which is not usually available to those who do not have full access, but who are stuck with abstracts only).

Therefore, these discussions are dealing with the potential criticisms. I must categorically state, though, that it is NOT "full of holes". Rather it is an above average discussion of the issues raised, and where uncertainty resides. Thus, it is accurate and above all, honest.

What I hang my hat on is physiology, and things that make sense. The discussions show - clearly show - that the effects are not done through "blood flow". I really thought that these discussions (despite the technical jargon) would make that clear.

In brief then, the answer to: "Isn't that a fancy way of saying circulation or oxygen....this blocking of tgfb? When they say they don't know how things work? " is...

No. It is not. It is about fibrosis, and antifibrotic pathways. Not blood flow. Not oxygen.

Fibrosis.

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

Percival,

I was taking vitamin E many years ago for months and months, it did nothing for me, I've lost count now of how many people have told me they took vitamin E and it did nothing, the stuff is a waste, we should get a member poll on this I think.

ComeBackid

[Rico]

Dear forum members,

I will be going into the doctor(urologist) shortly, he wanted to see me after three months...my peyronies first started in may and I went to see him at the end of June....so I'm really going now on almost five months....I'm just on the second week of VED and will be moving to larger tube soon and feel this is something that can change my condition....but I want to take advantage of everything I can in the early stages of this peyronies phase....my Urologist has been treating peyronies for over 15 years...he said Viagra wouldn't help me, or to use a VED....but he has provided me with a script for one now...

I'm using dmso(thacker), this is a hassle, but I have stuck with it for the last month now....my plaque is smaller, but my size is the same...maybe a little bigger, not much...

I don't want to leave anything on the table like I said in the early stages....now I keep trying to get my arms around the pent ox/arginine/Viagra  and I can read all the reports on tgf beta ect...and fibrosis blockage....I know "I" think and not the medical community that the blood flow or circulation might have something to do with the healing....

Now I just read Dr. Levien's post in July and he said if you wanted to do something short of injection therapy or Iontophoresis...then he would suggest doing pentox 400mg twice a day with 500mg of arginine twice a day...He didn't mention viagra...but his first choice is still verapamil.....

I guess I want to make the most out of next visit and come in with my guns loaded and come back with the best possible oral medicines out there today to enhance my ved.....I have read and heard from people who Dr. Lue puts on pentox/arginine/viagra to stop all other supplements....and in the trental(pentox) reports they state not to use Ginko and vit E.....

Any suggestions....

Rico

[George999]

>>No. It is not. It is about fibrosis, and antifibrotic pathways. Not blood flow. Not oxygen.

Fibrosis.

Tim

Tim, I agree completely.  This whole fibrotic thing is about things like TGF Beta and iNOS.  HOWEVER, there might be some drugs/supplements that affect BOTH blood flow/circulation and fibrotic factors.  I don't know of any specific examples, but would speculate that there is always that possibility.  But the two are definately different issues.  For example, Horny Goat Weed inhibits PDE-5 which enhances eNOS and thus positively impacts circulation/oxigenization and then their is Chinese (Baikal) Skullcap which inhibits iNOS which in turn inhibits fibrosis.  Fascinating stuff.

- George

[Hawk]

Rico,

I am confused as to why we keep going over and over what Pentox does.  A physician on this forum with access to full text studies and articles and who has had decades of personal experience with Peyronies Disease and who goes out of his way to promote accurate information on this forum clearly responded to your mistaken assessment.  He made this very clear quote and added a ton of other information that i think deserved rereading until it was absorbed before jumping to more false conclusions.

The reason that pentox is used is to allow it to block the effects of Transforming Growth Factor BEta (TGF-B). The reason that Viagra is used is to promote the iNOS pathways that exert an anti-inflamatory effect - NOT to promote blood flow.

As though he never said "NOT to promote blood flow", you still came back with yet another post.

Isn't that a fancy way of saying circulation or oxygen....this blocking of tgfb?

If it were a fancy way of saying circulation, Tim would not have said, "NOT to promote blood flow"  You must know Tim would have never dismissed your earlier conclusion as false if blood flow was the goal.  He understands the report and he is honest and forthcoming.  He understood your conclusions.

This has nothing to do with stumbling on ED drugs, or different schools of thought like different inventors.   It is not a way of looking at it.  It is science and rational thought.  By the way, Einstein was never an inventor, he was a psysicist.

It may be that you are trying to run too fast and this is contributing to your jumping to unsupported conclusions.  We are not likely on this forum to unlock the inner secrets of the Peyronies Disease puzzle.  We do not do research, we search through other people's research.  While I am the LAST to blindly follow a doctor, men with much more knowledge than we have, with a deep knowledge of these drugs, observing some real patterns of success, have worked out a combination drug therapy by design, not by chance.  Time will tell if it is effective.  It serves no purpose for mail carriers, police officers, truck drivers, martial arts experts, and computer geeks to repeatedly theorize on topics they don't have the background to discuss.

Somewhere we have to draw a balance between questioning, and sidetracking the entire topic with a repeated repostings of false conclusions.  We learn much faster by reading and listening than by talking and posting.


PS: Good luck with your appointment.

[George999]

I think we would all agree that blood flow is a big important factor with peyronies.  More is definately better when it comes to blood flow.    But I think Rico is trying to tie everything back to blood flow which is a mistake on his part.  We have to remember that peyronies is a complex disease that is likely caused by a number of converging factors.   One of course would be trauma.  But if trauma were the only factor, I am sure that half the male population would have peyronies.  So we have to start looking at how to improve blood flow.  But we also have to start looking at factors that might be inducing fibrosis in other ways and things like TGF Beta and iNOS.  So we need to be looking a fibrosis suppressing approaches.  And we most certainly have to be looking at things like inflammation which I feel is another huge factor in peyronies along with insufficient blood flow.  As long as we have inflammation, we are going to be having bad things happening even with all the blood flow in the world.  The increased blood flow is only going to supply more construction material for the plaque building process.  So we need to be looking at how to reduce inflammation.  The other factor, I am learning as I go along, is the need for patience.  Anyone looking for a 'quick fix' for their peyronies is going to be in for a dissappointment.  My peyronies has gotten better hugely over time to the point it does not even concern me anymore.  But all of this has happened gradually and in the process of staying the course rather than jumping from one technique or supplement to another in search of the magic cure.  Personally, I am really keen on research, if research indicates that something has been shown to be even marginally helpful, I am eager to include that in my regimin and to do it over a long period of time without expecting to see immediate results.  I am in this battle for where I am going to be five or ten years from now, not for where I am going to be tomorrow.  Because I know where I am going to be tomorrow, the same place I am today.  But that does not deter me, because I am willing to take the various pills and give them lots of time to do their work.  After over two years dealing with peyronies, I am very happy with where I am today and I am very happy with where my hypertension is today and am continuing to battle it as well with both conventional and complementary treatment.  But I do want to second what Hawk is saying here in that we will not help ourselves in the long term by trying to oversimplify matters.  We need to realize that peyronies is a persistant and tough thing to deal with and it takes a lot of patience and tenacity to make progress against it.  I am here to say that over time I have made a whole lot of progress by using things over the long term that others on this forum have 'tried and tossed aside'.  And along that line, it is really important that when something is not working, we ask, what might I be doing wrong in applying this technique or supplement that might be compromising its effectiveness.  The whole thing is not simple folks.  Its all virtually unexplored and unimmaginably complex territory and we need to be really careful before we embrace OR dump concepts of treatment.

Just my thoughts,

George

[hopeful]

George.

This is Hopeful.  I have had Peyronies Disease for 1-yr. now- 35% curve upwards at tip- loss of length- and girth- possible trauma - also, I am 58- my brother is 57- both Italian decent- ( father) - both acquired Peyronies Disease at about same time.

I was doing internal and external enzymes- have lost hope- my Testostorine is very low- 200-  Have been to the quack doctors- the scammers- who just take money- have not gone to a so-alled Peyronies Disease expert like a Dr. Levine or leiu- am frustrated- have studied a lot-and still dont know Jack crap or what is the right thing to do.

VED no VEd- Epson Salt, Pentox, ACL..Neprinol, Vi E- IONTO?- HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

I would appreciate knowing what protocols you are using and how often.

Thank you,

Hopeful

[George999]

Hello Hopeful,

If you look at my post under improvement accounts https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,466.0.html , it will give you an idea of what I am doing and what has worked best for me.  My basic strategy is to take a nominal dosage of a whole lot of things that research has shown may be helpful for my condition and stick with that over a long period of time.  I really get turned off by those who say "you have to take a LOT of our expensive stuff to MAYBE see results" I much prefer (with a few exceptions such as a low level dosage of Neprinol) to stay with the stuff that research indicates might be beneficial.  As in, for sure I want to increase blood flow and vascular health, for sure I want to support nitric oxide metabolism, and for sure I want to knock out inflamation and oxidative stress.  Knowing that, I am concentrating on using stuff that is known to accomplish that.  From there its just a very painful and frustrating waiting game in the hope that things get better.  And in my case I have been well rewarded by things getting better although the progress has been glacial.  Be very afraid (as you have learned) of the countless con artists who promise instant solutions and walk away with your money.  Better to spend your money on proven supplements that can slowly nuture you back to health.  At this point, I am making some compromises with my peyronies.  I have decided to take more thiazide to lower my blood pressure which will have an impact on my erections.  But there are always tradeoffs when it comes to caring for ones health and my blood pressure is a priority for me right now and I am intent on actually finding a way to reverse my hypertension which is as big if not a bigger challenge than peyronies.  But my strategy is to try to use the same tecniques to fight both as much as is possible.

Wishing you the best,

George

[ComeBacKid]

Currently I'm on the pentox, L Arginine protocol with ALC as well, and I take trazodone at night for nightime erections. Is there anything that can be substituted in place of viagra for one like me who can't afford viagra?  Does trazodone do anything similar to what viagra does as far as PDE-5 inhibitors?

I thought about adding in red korean ginseng with my pentox, l arginine, and trazodone, or horny goat weed with macca, would this be safe to try or even be worth it? To me it seems there is good reasoning behind why one uses pentox, viagra and larginine, and I'm trying to find a pill or drug to replace viagra in that combo that does similar things.

Any ideas for this?