ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[newguy]

I need arginine and niacin, maybe taurine.

I don't know of any in australia, but it might be worth looking further afield if you can get better deals. iherb.com was mentioned here many times, and eventually I gave them a go. Delivery to the UK was very fast (about 4 days), so maybe they deliver to the states too. If the delivery cost is reasonable to that destination then it might be a good choice. Check up local VAT/Duty charges too.

I'm interested in buying bulk powders of taurine and so on, as I'll be cheaper. If anyone has any suggestions for that, I'd appeciate it.

[slowandsteady]

I'm interested in buying bulk powders of taurine and so on, as I'll be cheaper. If anyone has any suggestions for that, I'd appeciate it.

Here's what I have: http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Taurine-Powder-8-oz-227-g/7425?at=0

[skunkworks]

So niacin or niacinimide? Which is better and what is the difference?

Great call on Iherb by the way, looks like a winner.

[slowandsteady]

So niacin or niacinimide? Which is better and what is the difference?

Actually, there are three: nicotinic acid (often just referred to as niacin), niacinamide, and inositol hexanicotinate. Nicotinic acid can cause the niacin flush, which I think is good but you should be aware of it before you go running to the emergency room after taking a bunch on an empty stomach .

I don't know which is better; it's an on-going debate. I take a bit of all three to hedge my bet. Inositol hexanicotinate may be a good choice. I use this one. For nicotinic acid I use this one. I use this niacinamide.

[newguy]

Actually, there are three: nicotinic acid (often just referred to as niacin), niacinamide, and inositol hexanicotinate. Nicotinic acid can cause the niacin flush, which I think is good but you should be aware of it before you go running to the emergency room after taking a bunch on an empty stomach .

I rarely get any negative impact from supplements, but the first time I took niacin I become so hot and tingly that I thought I was having a panic attack!! For those wishing to take it rather than the alternatives, the flushing does diminish somewhat if you stick with niacin. Also, it is thought that taking aspirin 30 minutes before niacin significantly reduces the flushing, so if you're already taking it, you might want to organise your time accordingly: http://www.healthy.net/scr/Article.asp?Id=785

[Iceman]

Can anyone help:

I need to place an online order at iherb for my supps as I have run out of:
Larg, ALC and Tribulus.
Can anyone let me know a good/decent grocery list that I should order @ iherb as it has to be freighted internationally and I do this every 6 months. Therefore this order must be thorough and up to date of the best products on the market or as recently discovered to help Peyronies Disease.

Thx

[slowandsteady]

I'm starting to think that DHEA is crucial after taking it for a few days now. I supplement with the 7-keto form (I've started 300 mg/day) since my testosterone is fine. This is what I use, Iceman:

Taurine, 7-keto DHEA, pycnogenol, l-arginine, niacin, NAC, vitamin E, and biotin.

[newguy]

Iceman - I think a good regime includes:

Pentox
L-arginine + Pycnogenol
Viagra/Cialia/Levitra (though not all three )
Taurine + Niacin (I've been impressed with the various taurine studies, and the niacin ones that s&s found make me think they may be useful in combination)
NAC , ALC

Obviously you can't buy presciption meds from iherb, but I'm definitely suggest stocking up on the rest..

If you're looking to expand further maybe include vitamin e, d3, fibrozym

I'm starting to think that DHEA is crucial after taking it for a few days now. I supplement with the 7-keto form (I've started 300 mg/day) since my testosterone is fine. This is what I use, Iceman:

Taurine, 7-keto DHEA, pycnogenol, l-arginine, niacin, NAC, vitamin E, and biotin.

Do you still take carnosine? I heard that it depletes taurin from the body so I stopped taking beta-alanine for now. I might give biotin a try. I'll make an order in a month or so and add anything that I think might help. What's the thinking behind taking DHEA?

[Iceman]

newguy - why take  NAC and not ALC??

[George999]

newguy - whats NAC??

From Wikipedia:

Acetylcysteine, also known as N-acetylcysteine or N-acetyl-L-cysteine (abbreviated NAC), is a pharmaceutical drug used mainly as a mucolytic agent and in the management of paracetamol (acetaminophen) overdose.

And:

Acetylcysteine is used in the treatment of interstitial lung disease to prevent disease progression.

And:

The IV injection and inhalation preparations are, in general, prescription only, whereas the oral solution and the effervescent tablets are available over the counter in many countries.

- George

[Iceman]

George - does this mean the NAC should be on the shopping list??

[slowandsteady]

Do you still take carnosine? I heard that it depletes taurin from the body so I stopped taking beta-alanine for now.

I did not know that.  I do take it on occasion, plus it's in meat.

What's the thinking behind taking DHEA?

I posted about it here. It seems to be helping so far.

[newguy]

Do you still take carnosine? I heard that it depletes taurin from the body so I stopped taking beta-alanine for now.

I did not know that.  I do take it on occasion, plus it's in meat.

A number of animal studies on beta-alanine appear to suggest that it can seriously depletes taurine. If it's try for beta-alanine I suspect it's true for carosinine, though I'm of course be happy if that isn't the case. It could be that the doses in humans to ellicit depletion is very high (since high doses are often used in animal studies). That would be an angle that would remove this potential problematic finding (for those wanting to take both supplements). Also, it could be that this issue doesn't transfer to humans, but studies do suggest that beta-alanine and taurine compete for absoption. On some bodybuilding sites they mentioning cycling beta-alanine.

"Taurine was found to inhibit beta-alanine uptake into neurons and astrocytes in a competitive manner, with Ki values of 217 microM in neurons and 24 microM in astrocytes. beta-Alanine was shown to inhibit taurine uptake in neurons and astrocytes, also in a competitive manner, with Ki values of 72 microM in neurons and 71 microM in astrocytes."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=309020 0&dopt=Abstract

"The uptake systems for taurine and beta-alanine were thus in principle similar, and they exhibited certain characteristics typical for a neurotransmitter amino acid. The inhibition studies further suggest the existence of only one common transport system for taurine, beta-alanine, and GABA in cultured primary astrocytes. The same uptake system may also be used for hypotaurine."

Looks like they perhaps both inhibit one another. Maybe cycling or dosing at difference times of day would reduce the problem. It might just be a case of keeping them apart from one another.

[skunkworks]

Ok I now have naltrexone and pentox. One question, I have seen these words posted here "for those who can't use pentox". Why can certain people not use pentox? Do some suffer unbearable side effects, and if so what are they?\

Will soon be putting in a supplements order.

At the moment my shopping list consists of:

l-arginine powder
Flush Free Niacin
taurine

[Skjaldborg]

Why can certain people not use pentox? Do some suffer unbearable side effects, and if so what are they?\

Pentox can cause some gastrointestinal side effects such as nausea, diarrhea and gas and occasionally causes dizziness. I had a bit of nausea the first few weeks but now it doesn't really bother me (I'm 4 months in now). I spread out the doses (at least 5 hours apart, if not more) and found certain foods agree better with pentox than others. Other than some GI side effects, pentox has low toxicity. Afterall, it is prescribed on label for people who are close to losing hands and feet due to complications with diabetes-if you are generally healthy there shouldn't be any problems. Of course, follow you doctor's instructions at all times.

On the upside and non-Peyronie's related, I notice my recovery times for running are much reduced and that I have fewer aches and pains post-workout. I think the tissue oxygen boost from pentox is a big plus for my workouts. So, uh, silver lining I guess?

Best,

Skjaldborg

[ComeBacKid]

I've only noticed a few with pentox- dry mouth, difficulty in reaching orgasm, and diahrea like symptoms.

On the up side, I've noticed solid full erections, what appears to be more flexibility and softening of some of my plaque, increase in size, and less curvature ( I don't know if this is due to the blood thining effect, and the ability of the blood to get to all areas of the penis or not).  

If I take my pentox with food I never have an upset stomach.  If you don't take it with food you can get upset stomach.

The only concern I have is the downregulation of the immune system caused by pentox, is it permanent, does it weaken the immune system, is it dangerous to be on long term?  Maybe Tim or someone else can way in on this.

Overall this is the best treatment I've found to date.

[Iceman]

im getting allot of tounge ulcers recently - could this be from my immune system being weak from pentox? - been on pentox for nearly 1.5 yrs now

[skunkworks]

I did feel slightly nauseous today, but I have not yet eaten and it is now 4pm, so have had 2 doses of pentox.

[Woodman]

Iam one who cannot tolerate the side effects from Pentox. It makes me very depressed & withdrawn. I have a very hard time concentrating and I become quite. I am usually an outgoing talkative person normally. I tryed three different attempts with the same effects. It builds slowly and peaks at 8 to 12 weeks useage.

I asked my doctor about it and at first he said he hadn't had any other patients with the same complaints. Then a couple months later he told me during a visit that he had another man experience the same effects. He asked me to elaborate on it a little so he could learn for his patients in the future.

Is there anyone here on LDN for there Peyronies Disease? I noticed someone mention earlier that it was used by people who couldn't take Pentox. I ve read about it on the naltrexone website and it seems very interesting sense Peyronies Disease is thought to be autoimmune. I believe it is autoimmune IMO.

If there is anyone on LDN could you please post your experience with it. It would be great to have something new to try. When I asked the doctor he told me there isn't anything to substitute Pentox unfortunately.

Woodman

[George999]

Just to recap some things regarding Low Dose Naltrexone.

1)  At this point there is absolutely no overt research evidence that Low Dose Naltrexone is helpful in the case of Peyronie's Disease.  That is the unfortunate bottom line.

2)  The caveat to number one is that A) Low Dose Naltrexone is known to be beneficial for people with a wide range of problems, including, but not limited to autoimmune problems.  And B) that Low Dose Naltrexone, like Pentox, is very inexpensive, easy to take, and low risk.  And C), that Low Dose Naltrexone, unlike Pentox, strengthens the immune system.

3)  At this point, there are guys here who have tried or are trying Low Dose Naltrexone, but it is going to take a substantial amount of time to collect the kind of experiential evidence that will give any kind of indicator that it might be helpful.

4)  The overall bottom line with Naltrexone is that if you can get a doctor to prescribe it for you, it is almost certainly not going to harm you, and it might fix other health problems if not the Peyronie's.

5)  Along with Naltrexone, I also recommend that people who can't tolerate Pentox try to get their vitamin D levels in order unless they have prostate cancer issues.

- George

[Chopsuey]

Hi Guys,
This is my first post in this forum. I've been following it somewhat since last year when i was first diagnosed with Peyronnies. The urologist I saw last year didn't so anything other than tell me to take Vitamin E everyday. I have since moved out of state and found a urologist in the Baltimore area that specializes in Peyronnies. He has me taking Colchicine everyday and 50mg Viagra 3x a week. I've read that Colchicine is used for Peyronnies treatment and is supposed to inhibit scar production, but I don't really see anyone in this forum taking it. Does anyone have any experience with this drug and it'e effectiveness?

I am also taking Vitamins E and C along with L-Arginine twice a day. I haven't noticed any benefits yet from taking these drugs and vitamins...not sure if they are helping or not. I never did experience any pain from my Peyronnies so that hasn't been an issue for me. I curve to the right about 30-35 degrees, have an indentation on the right side and the distal portion of my penis curves up too. I've lost about 1 1/2 inches in length. I just started using the Andropenis traction last week to help with the curvature and the lost length. Pretty depressing dealing with this issue. Luckily I have a very understanding wife who is very supportive, so I am blessed in that regard.

My uro says there is a phase 2 study coming up early next year that I may have an opportunity to participate in. It involves injecting Cholchinase directly into the scar tissue and he said the results so far look very promising. Has anyone else heard anything about this drug and it's effectiveness?

Mike

[jackp]

chopsuey

Be careful this stuff has some nasty side effects. This is a quick google of Colchicne

Adverse reactions in decreasing order of severity are: bone marrow depression, with aplastic anemia, with agranulocytosis or with thrombocytopenia may occur in patients receiving long-term therapy. Peripheral neuritis, purpura, myopathy, loss of hair, and reversible azoospermia have also been reported

If you think you ever want a child or another child this stuff kills sperm.

Jackp

[Chopsuey]

JackP,

Thanks for the warning...I didn't see those listed anywhere. I'll talk to my doc about it.

I also misspelled "collagenase" when referring to the phase II study injections.

[skunkworks]

Do you think ldn could render pentox ineffective?

[slowandsteady]

Do you think Low Dose Naltrexone could render pentox ineffective?

That would be surprising, since for me at least, it doesn't render curcumin ineffective.

[skunkworks]

Do you think Low Dose Naltrexone could render pentox ineffective?

That would be surprising, since for me at least, it doesn't render curcumin ineffective.

Hmm I guess I need to read up more on how Pentox actually works to help Peyronie's. I thought it was due to its mild immune suppression, but this is not the case?

[George999]

Regarding LDN and Pentox, I think the jury is still out on this one.  LDN stimulates the immune system and Pentox suppresses it.  Thus the intuitive answer would be that these two would not work out together.  But intuitive answers are sometimes wrong.  In the case of Pentox, it does not suppress the immune system broadly or directly, but rather narrowly and indirectly by blocking cytokines, not be directly suppressing immune function like a classic immune suppressant such as Prednisone or Interferon.  LDN, on the other hand is believed to be a very broad immune system stimulant.  Oh, and by the way, I am just now celebrating the arrival of a bottle of LDN pills.  So I, myself, am facing this dilemma.  At this point I am planning on doing both.  In this way I will be using LDN in an attempt to make my immune system stronger and smarter while at the same time attempting to take advantage of the protective effects of Pentox.  So we will see how all of this works out and I will keep you all posted.  - George

[skunkworks]

http://www.peyronies-disease.co.uk/2009/10/long-term-pentoxifylline-treatment.html

[skunkworks]

George99 - I am also using both.

I found this:

The mechanism is not fully understood; pentox blocks the transforming growth factor (TGF) B1- mediated pathway of inflammation, prevents deposition of collagen type 1, and acts as a nonspecific (PDE) inhibitor.

So it seems tgf - beta1 is the clincher here, I need to find out what effect LDN has on it. Internet gives me not much info so may have to try and find researcher emails.

[Ashen]

I've been on pentox for 6 months now and during this have not incorporated any other supplements except for D3.

Should I add in l-arginine and pycnogenol daily?  What if I do have "kind of routine, but not every" morning erections and do not experience difficulty acheiving an erection when called for?  Will it still be beneficial?

[slowandsteady]

I've been on pentox for 6 months now and during this have not incorporated any other supplements except for D3.

Should I add in l-arginine and pycnogenol daily?  What if I do have "kind of routine, but not every" morning erections and do not experience difficulty acheiving an erection when called for?  Will it still be beneficial?

I think so. The combination increases NOx, which further reduces TGF-beta1.

[Ashen]

I've been on pentox for 6 months now and during this have not incorporated any other supplements except for D3.

Should I add in l-arginine and pycnogenol daily?  What if I do have "kind of routine, but not every" morning erections and do not experience difficulty acheiving an erection when called for?  Will it still be beneficial?

I think so. The combination increases NOx, which further reduces TGF-beta1.

I will give it a try then.  Ordering both the Now Foods L-Arginine 500mg and Healthy Origins Pycnogenol 100mg.

[Ted Williams]

Hello Folks,

Been a while since I posted.  Since learning about the inflamatory connection of Peyronies Disease, I went on a journey of discovery regarding inflamation.  I have also become more healthy then I have ever been in my life.  In the gym that I worked out in, I was advised by the coach/nutritionist to start taking Fish Oil supplements to help with recovery from work-outs and to address nagging pain in my shoulders after work outs.  

In short, it has been a God send.  The added benefit is that by eating a low inflamatory diet and taking fish-oil supplements, I have seen my plaque's shrink and my condition improve.  

So I need to get on Pentox, get my VED and cure myself of this dang thing, becuase the progress I got is going to keep going!  Does anyone know if a Uro in the Boston area that is pro-Pentox or am I going to have to educate my doctor?  

I'd prefer to go right to someone that is on board.  

I'll keep you'all posted on progress.

Ted.

[Iceman]

can someone help me please - has anyone ever used Pycnogenol? - im thinking about adding this to my supp regime but I would really like someones feedback on this.

thx

[Fred22]

Hello Folks,

Been a while since I posted.  Since learning about the inflamatory connection of Peyronies Disease, I went on a journey of discovery regarding inflamation.  I have also become more healthy then I have ever been in my life.  In the gym that I worked out in, I was advised by the coach/nutritionist to start taking Fish Oil supplements to help with recovery from work-outs and to address nagging pain in my shoulders after work outs.  

In short, it has been a God send.  The added benefit is that by eating a low inflamatory diet and taking fish-oil supplements, I have seen my plaque's shrink and my condition improve.  

So I need to get on Pentox, get my VED and cure myself of this dang thing, becuase the progress I got is going to keep going!  Does anyone know if a Uro in the Boston area that is pro-Pentox or am I going to have to educate my doctor?  

I'd prefer to go right to someone that is on board.  

I'll keep you'all posted on progress.

Ted.

Hi Ted,

Could you offer some more details regarding your diet?  What foods are you eating and what are you avoiding to keep inflammation at bay?  Also how much and what kind of fish oil are you taking?  Thanks.

Fred

[Ted Williams]

Hey Fred,

It is basically the "Zone Diet".  I am taking Zone fish-oil supplements.  The Omega-3 fatty acids protect against inflamation.  I am doing my best to get out all of the things that have a high glycemic index.  Basically, all the sugar and pasta and stuff.  I balance it with lots and lots of fruits and vegetables.  Mostly vegetables.  

My plaques are not gone, but they have shrunk in size.

I hope that is helpful.

Ted

[George999]

I take a more intuitive approach than Ted, but in the end very similar with the same goals.  If one is concerned about inflammation, sugar and refined carbs are virtually the devil.  The typical western refining process removes the most beneficial elements of carbs and jacks their glycemic impact up to the sky.  Knocking out inflammation is very much about eating only good carbs, good fats and good proteins.  Dr Oz's "You on a Diet" is a more informal approach whereas Zone Diet is a more structured way of doing it, but they are pretty much parallel approaches.  And either one can work for anyone willing to make the commitment.  They also have the advantage that once you get on them, there is no rebound effect like most diets cause.  This has been very helpful to me and I would encourage anyone to pick one of these dietary approaches and go with it.  - George

[newguy]

can someone help me please - has anyone ever used Pycnogenol? - im thinking about adding this to my supp regime but I would really like someones feedback on this.

thx

Do I search for pycnogenol . It' been talked about quite a lot lately. In short, using it alongside l-arginine is likely a good idea.

[skunkworks]

I follow the Paleolithic way of eating. Which to a certain extent can be summed up as, if it is toxic while raw do not eat it. I cook my food as normal, but only eat things that are edible raw. That means no potato, no wheat.

[George999]

Paleo diet is a step beyond Zone and if you can manage it, good for you!  As far as I can tell, Paleo pretty much conforms to Zone rules, but takes it a step further in terms of eliminating wheat and other gluten containing grains along with modern hybrid meats that are reeking with the wrong kinds of fats and such.  I would go there if I absolutely have to, but hope to avoid it with Low Dose Naltrexone which should reinforce the weak points that gluten exploits.  The part about avoiding designer meat I actually try to observe.  I at least try to make sure it is grassfed and not feedlot.  I think there are a lot of nasty health problems associated with feedlot meat, farmed fish and assembly line poultry, all pumped full of antibiotics and growth hormones.  Yuch!  - George

[skunkworks]

It's actually quite easy once you get started. Meat is very very satisfying.

[Ashen]

When you guys mention the Zone Diet are you talking about the following?

http://www.zonediet.com/

[George999]

Yup, thats the site.  And it looks like Zone diet is getting a whole lot more sophisticated.  I looked at the new additions and said "whoa!, what are they doing?".  But when you look at the labels and see how they are designing them its pretty cool, almost paleo!. Lots of fascinating and unique supplements here now as well.  Very tempting! - George

[Fred22]

I checked out the website but to me it seemed pretty commercially oriented and not very user friendly.  However, I may be missing something.  I watched all 3 videos (Weight Loss, Wellness, and Fitness) and he basically said the excat same thing in all three.  Also it says "Dr. Sears explains molecular baking", but he does not really explain what it is in any of the videos.  What is molecular baking?  Also the nutrition bars and other food products seemed very expensive and also contained quite a bit of sugar (one of the nutrition bars had 18 grams of sugar).  The box of nutrition bars is over $35, but I could not find how many bars were contained in a package.  There was also a link to a site which purported to contain information regarding the amount of actual fish oil contained in some of the name brand products but this information wasn't in the YouTube videos posted on the site.  The speaker did mention that you couldn't really build up your omega 3 count by eating plant sources of omega 3.  I've been eating lots of walnuts lately because of the omega 3 content, but according to the videos, you must eat fish to get the proper omega 3.  Is it true that eating walnuts and other plant sources of omega 3 won't help?  I've been taking one 1200 mg. gel cap fish oil daily and we eat fish a couple of times a week.  I take the Nature Made brand fish oil and was hoping to find some information on that brand.  Is there a book on the Zone Diet or another website that better explains the concept, or can someone here (Ted or George, etc.) elaborate on it?  I'm very interested in the non-inflammatory diet concept.  Is the Zone fish oil really superior in quality to others?  Can anyone recommend a better brand (I have about a year's supply of the Nature Made, so I hope it's good enough).  Thanks.

Fred

[Skjaldborg]

Stone age man in Europe ate a lot of large and dangerous wild game. Men of northern European ancestry are more likely to get Peyronie's than people from elsewhere in the world. Perhaps an overheated immune system evolved to quickly heal stone age hunters in Europe after getting pummeled and gored by their quarry. Those who scarred quickly instead of bleeding out or succumbing to infection were able to fight and hunt another day and go on to reproduce. Makes me wonder if that isn't why I'm dealing with this goofy disease.

Unfortunately for fans of the "Paleo" diet, very few stone age plant and animal species survive in their original form today due to climate change, population growth and the extensive cultivation of a handful of crops for human consumption and industrial purposes. A true "stone age" diet is not exactly possible. Furthermore, to get the full benefits of the paleo diet, you need to be outside hunting and running and throwing spears, not ordering bison meat off the internet from a comfy office chair.

Also, wild einkorn wheat and emmer wheat (as well as several other grains) were eaten in stone age times when available. This modern prohibition against wheat does not make sense unless you are allergic to gluten. Forgoing bread and pasta will not cure Peyronie's. Skipping plants in the Solanaceae family (potatoes, tomatoes, etc.) is no miracle cure either. Indeed, stone age man never ate a twinkie, but he would live to what? Thirty-five at best? No thanks.

Moderation, moderation, moderation. In the words of Michael Pollan: "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."

-Skjald

[George999]

One of the reasons I prefer the Dr Oz intuitive approach to diet is that there are some very good diets out there that do tend to get a little strange in certain ways.

To try to answer some of Fred's questions:
1)  Yes the Zone Diet website has become more commercial lately and that is a turnoff.  As for the products, I tend to judge them more by the ingredient labels than by the marketing terms like "molecular baking" whatever that is supposed to mean.  Looking at the ingredient labels and the nutritional disclosure labels, I found many of the food products rather impressive.  On the other hand, "nutrition" bars are, in my opinion, designer junk food.  I would stay away from them.  All of them.  As for pricing, who knows?  The guy is trying to make money from his diet plan.  Such is life.

2) Omega 3's are omega 3's.  It doesn't matter where they come from, they all contribute to your daily total.  The way to measure fish oil products is by the total EPA/DHA content.  The more the better.  With fish oil you are limited by its propensity to promote bleeding and other problems.  You can only take so much of it a day.  Within that daily allowance you want to pack as much EPA/DHA in as possible.  And of course, you want to make sure it is totally free of heavy metal contamination.  So read the labels and go from there.

And now for Skjaldborg:

1)  Wild game is healthier than domestic meats.  Thats the bottom line.  Having said that, red meat is still read meat and is still basically inflammatory.  This being the case, I would take the Paleo diet's promotion of meat with a grain of salt.  I try to limit my consumption of meat, and especially red meat, but given the choice, I will take wild game over the feedlot stuff any day.

2)  Your point about couch potato "cave men" is very insightful.  A Paleo diet is best implemented alongside a Paleo lifestyle.

3)  The obsession with gluten has some problems as well.  The reality is that people who are sensitive to gluten already have a metabolic problem going on.  I think there are perhaps better ways to deal with this these days than trying to avoid gluten.  Ditto with tomatoes.  I prefer an approach like Low Dose Naltrexone that addresses the underlying immune system issues rather than trying to dance around the whole food allergy game starting with things like gluten.  Gluten only causes a problem because there is something wrong in the first place.  Why not just try to solve the something wrong.

4)  And yes lifespans in the stone age were not all that impressive and diets that lean toward vegetarian are intrinsically healthier.

And to sum up, NONE of these things is going to instantly cure our Peyronie's situation.  I don't think that any of us were meaning to imply that to be the case.  At this point, if we can stop its progress, and I think we can, we have achieved a lot.  And we need to get this information out to those that are just starting out with Peyronie's so that they can arrest it before it does a lot of damage.  On the other hand, if we can push back on it a bit, and I suspect we are getting to the point that we can do that too, that is all the better.  - George

[skunkworks]

Stone age man in Europe ate a lot of large and dangerous wild game. Men of northern European ancestry are more likely to get Peyronie's than people from elsewhere in the world. Perhaps an overheated immune system evolved to quickly heal stone age hunters in Europe after getting pummeled and gored by their quarry. Those who scarred quickly instead of bleeding out or succumbing to infection were able to fight and hunt another day and go on to reproduce. Makes me wonder if that isn't why I'm dealing with this goofy disease.

Unfortunately for fans of the "Paleo" diet, very few stone age plant and animal species survive in their original form today due to climate change, population growth and the extensive cultivation of a handful of crops for human consumption and industrial purposes. A true "stone age" diet is not exactly possible. Furthermore, to get the full benefits of the paleo diet, you need to be outside hunting and running and throwing spears, not ordering bison meat off the internet from a comfy office chair.

Also, wild einkorn wheat and emmer wheat (as well as several other grains) were eaten in stone age times when available. This modern prohibition against wheat does not make sense unless you are allergic to gluten. Forgoing bread and pasta will not cure Peyronie's. Skipping plants in the Solanaceae family (potatoes, tomatoes, etc.) is no miracle cure either. Indeed, stone age man never ate a twinkie, but he would live to what? Thirty-five at best? No thanks.

Moderation, moderation, moderation. In the words of Michael Pollan: "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."

-Skjald

Skjald:

The introduction of the wheats you mention, coincided with a large drop in the average height of skeletons found. We are only now starting to get back to that height now, but now we are ridden with issues such as tooth decay and poor bone density, none of which were evident in the skeleton evidence found from that period.

Moreover the average age is not relevant as this would have been a product of many diet unrelated factors such as infant mortality, death by misadventure, and that the lack of antibiotics meant that a small scratch on your finger could prove to be fatal if it got infected.

George99 and Skjaldborg - I could not disagree more with the assertion that vegetarian diets are intrinsically healthier. There is a lot of research that shows the majority of hunter gatherers ate a meat based diet, and had done so since and before becoming homo sapiens. We are talking 200k years as homo sapien, and part of the homo genus for far far longer.

Our digestive systems have not had time to adjust to wheat, and most vegetarian diets have a lot of wheat. Moreover there are things a vegetarian diet cannot supply. A mostly meat diet does not have this problem.  

[George999]

I think when we begin to debate meat based diets as opposed to vegetarian diets, we need to cite controlled studies.  There are studies out there indicating that there are inherent risks to meat based diets.  There are no studies that I know of indicating the opposite.  Please correct me if I am wrong on this.  Simply trying to say that we have not adapted from our cave man days to vegetables and wheat is really just speculation.  Where are the studies that prove it?  Where are the studies that show that a diet weighted towards vegetables and grains has a negative impact on health?  Many cultures consume far less meat than ours does, where are the studies indicating they have poorer health as a result?  Now if you were to say that we haven't adapted to Twinkies and other junk food, that would sound more logical.  - George

[skunkworks]

Well this is just on the inflammation side of things, as that is all I am concerned about.

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/beef-products/10526/2   - Grassfed beef - anti-inflammatory

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/beef-products/8000/2    - regular beef  - anti-inflammatory

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/beef-products/7492/2 - beef sirloin - anti - inflammatory


http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/baked-products/4878/2 - whole wheat bread - inflammatory

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5707/2 - long grain brown rice - inflammatory

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5714/2 - long grain white rice - inflammatory

There are a tonne more there. There are some meat products that are mildly inflammatory, but far far more that are anti-inflammatory. The reverse is true for wheat products, even whole grain products. In my personal opinion, a diet that excludes wheat dairy and tubers, (with the exception of sweet potato) is going to be the best diet from an inflammation point of view.

The discussion as to which is healthier on a big picture scale, does not relate to Peyronie's in my opinion, and I'd rather leave that discussion to diet related forums.

[George999]

OK,  I stand corrected on that issue and have modified my previous post accordingly.  But I still think we have to be aware of the bigger picture in terms of health.  We can't ignore our general health in attempting to address Peyronie's.  That would end up being counter productive.  And we have to take our cures from research and from what we know about diet from the diets of people in Blue Zones were longevity is common and disease of any kind is rare.  Additionally, if you look at the nutritiondata.com site itself, nearly all of the top rated foods in terms of general health are non-meat products.  And more of them contain wheat than meat.  Even in terms of inflammation, you are comparing mildly inflammatory with mildly anti-inflammatory which sounds somewhat different than simply inflammatory v anti-inflammatory.  As I stated earlier, I do think the Paleo diet is interesting, but there are some aspects that I would question in terms of potential to carry them too far.  - George