ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[newguy]

Good stuff George. As of yesterday, I have added resverstrol and pycnogenol. There appears to be better science pointing towards helpful properties than many of my current oral treatments. I'm pleased that pycnogenol and l-arginine appear to be synergistic.

I am considering adding astragaloside and halofuginone. Maybe tongkat ali (longifolia jack) to boost testosterone, though studies are a bit thin on the ground. At which time I think i'll have pretty much hit the ceiling on my oral treatments regime.

[young25]

anybody has experience with forskolin. Any benefits for our condition??

[justbob]

Hello,

Please can someone message me on online source of Pentox/ Trental or a doctor who will prescribe it.  I live in the UK.  Thanks.

Bob

[newguy]

Bob -

Ideally, your post should be in the oral treatments section: https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,22.0.html

I added an online source that I currently use here:

https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,22.msg20066.html#msg20066  . It's a .co.uk site though it isn't actually based in the UK which means as well as being quite expensive, you will have to pay customs charges. The product looks authentic and is from one of the more trusted online site. However, I haven't had it tested, so it's still second best to being prescribed pentox.

I am in the same boat really and was unable to get hold on trental on the NHS. If anyone here was able to do so please let us know. Also, if anyone in the UK has access to it via a private doctor, can you let us know how much this costs you?

I'd very much appreciate any useful comments relating to these questions. Pentox is very cheap, and I'm effectively paying way over the odds for it.

[Fred22]

Looking at my previous post, I really need to learn how to write short messages

Fred22 - Three years with pain and your doctor will only prescribe Vitamin E. What exactly is he waiting to occur? In my opinion he's not doing his job properly. Have you approached with with studies that it can be useful in treating peyronies? Maybe that will switch on the bulb in his head. Have you tried the VED? Maybe it will tip the balance. Exercise, healthy eating. All important too.

I'm now on my second urologist.  I went to the first one right after I develpoed the pain 3 years ago, and his response was "well, pain is a little unusual". No offer of any idea why I might be experiencing pain or what might be done for it.  At the time I had not developed the curvature.  When the curvature appeared I made an appointment with another board certified uro who's the chair of the Urology Dept. of University of Tennessee in Memphis. Thought at last I'd get some help. He diagnosed the Peyronies Disease and put me on vit. E and checked my PSA, which had spiked a bit from my last test.  He was more concerned with the PSA than the Peyronies Disease (which I suppose is good since prostate cancer is nothing to play with).  I went back to him in March and my PSA had gone down, but he still wants to see me again in August.  I mentioned pentox for the Peyronies Disease, but he said it "wasn't in the literature".  I have not bothered to show him the documents posted here, because I know what his response will be...the studies were not "scientifically conducted" (double blind, placebo, etc.) therefore, the results are not scientifically significant.  He's a by the book research doctor and says that funding for research in Peyronies Disease is relatively nonexistant, especially for a state supported institution with dwindling revenues.  He said all the research money goes to cancer and heart research since they're the big killer diseases.

Regarding the VED... I went through a 3 month back and forth with my health care provider (Cigna...in the business of NOT CARING!!).  I was given a different story at each juncture as to whether they would pay or not until I just gave up, which, I'm sure, is what they wanted me to do. In May I went on Medicare with Cigna as my supplement.  Medicare will pay for VED for ED, but it doesn't mention Peyronie's.  I'm in the process now of initiating a dialogue with Medicare to see if they will help with the VED.  If not I'm just going to purchase the Fitzz.  I do eat a healthy diet and have been jogging and walking for exercise for years.  Lately I have been a little lax in the exercise department, but plan on getting back into it soon.  I just had a complete physical last Thursday and my bloodwork and urine were "perfect" according to the Drs. office.  I take 400 to 800 IU vit. E and 2000 IU D3 a day plus 1200 mg fish oil.  I've also been doing a little reading about Pycnogenal and it seems to show some promise.  On another positive note, my pain has subsided the last 3 or 4 days.  Hope it's not just a fluke.  

[George999]

anybody has experience with forskolin. Any benefits for our condition??

Forskolin is a really great smooth muscle relaxant.  It is very useful for bowel syndromes and urinary tract infections.  I keep it on hand and use it as needed.  I found little if any benefit for Peyronie's.  Of all the supplements, the most useful for me in dealing with Peyronie's was Acetyl L Carnitine.  - George

[young25]

anybody has experience with forskolin. Any benefits for our condition??

Forskolin is a really great smooth muscle relaxant.  It is very useful for bowel syndromes and urinary tract infections.  I keep it on hand and use it as needed.  I found little if any benefit for Peyronie's.  Of all the supplements, the most useful for me in dealing with Peyronie's was Acetyl L Carnitine.  - George

Thanks George,

Did you find any benefit for Erections?

[newguy]

George -  I'm interested in trying Halofuginone. From browsing around, am I to assume that Chang Shan extract contains a high amount of it, or should I attempt to find a source of pure Halofuginone?

[justbob]

Thanks for the information Newguy.  I'm based in the UK also.  I'm sorry to say that it doesn't surprise me very much that the NHS won't prescribe Trental.  Are there any private doctors in the UK with a progressive attitude towards treating Peyronie's disease?

Has anyone compared the product from inhousepharmacy with known genuine doctor prescribed Trental?  Would anyone be willing to swap a foil strip of tablets for comparison?

Without having done detailed research it appears on the face of it that the actions of ALCarnitine and Pentox in increasing arterial blood supply are similar.  I am already taking 1g ALC twice daily, is it safe to add 400mg twice daily Trental on top or should these products be used separately?

[George999]

anybody has experience with forskolin. Any benefits for our condition??

Forskolin is a really great smooth muscle relaxant.  It is very useful for bowel syndromes and urinary tract infections.  I keep it on hand and use it as needed.  I found little if any benefit for Peyronie's.  Of all the supplements, the most useful for me in dealing with Peyronie's was Acetyl L Carnitine.  - George

Thanks George,

Did you find any benefit for Erections?

Not really.  As I said, Its a great treatment for cases in which smooth muscle relaxation is helpful, but that does not apply to either Peyronie's or ED.  You could try taking it if you like.  The only concern with taking Forskolin is that it is known to activate and accelerate prostate cancer.  That is one reason I am very careful to take it ONLY AS NEEDED.  - George

[George999]

George -  I'm interested in trying Halofuginone. From browsing around, am I to assume that Chang Shan extract contains a high amount of it, or should I attempt to find a source of pure Halofuginone?

Unfortunately, Chang Shan contains NO halofuginone.  Chang Shan contains Febrifugine.  Halofuginone is a synthetic drug that is basically created by artificially modifying Febrifugine.  Febrifugine is as effective against collagen as Halofuginone, but is plagued by side-effects and toxicity.  Halofuginone was created to eliminate these side effects and toxic qualities while retaining full therapeutic benefits.  I have Chang Shan ordered and am planning on giving it a go.  But I will need to be very cautious not to get too much of it.  I will let everybody know if I see any benefits.  In the mean time, there is a whole new industry underway in attempting to exploit alternative channels in treating both autoimmune issues such as Peyronie's AND Cancer because both are dependent on many of the same malfunctioning alternative biological pathways.

Here are just two examples:

Idera Pharmaceuticals Announces Presentations of Preclinical Data on Modulation of Toll-like Receptors 3, 7, and 9 through Antisense  ( <-- LINK TO FULL ARTICLE )

"We have combined our pioneering work in antisense technology and second-generation antisense chemistry with the insights we have gained from our recent work in creating nucleic acid-based agonists and antagonists of TLRs, to create TLR antisense candidates that can inhibit expression of specific TLRs," said Sudhir Agrawal, D. Phil., President, Chief Executive Officer and Chief Scientific Officer. "In the preclinical studies presented at FOCIS, our TLR antisense candidates down regulated expression of the targeted TLR and the subsequent immune responses through an antisense mechanism of action. As a result, we believe that our TLR antisense candidates have potential therapeutic applications in autoimmune and inflammatory diseases."

Proteolix, Inc. Drug Candidate, PR-957, Prevents Disease Progression in Rheumatoid Arthritis Models by Selective Inhibition of the Immunoproteasome  ( <--LINK TO FULL ARTICLE )

PR-957 is the first highly selective, small molecule inhibitor of the immunoproteasome. The proteasome is an intracellular complex present in most cells that mediates the degradation of intracellular proteins, including key components of pathways that contribute to cancer cell growth and immune signaling. It is a proven and validated target for therapeutic intervention in oncology, but the side effect profiles of existing inhibitors have restricted the potential of this target for therapeutic intervention in autoimmune diseases. However, a specific form of the proteasome, known as the immunoproteasome, is found in many cells of the immune system. PR-957 selectively targets a subunit of the immunoproteasome, known as LMP7. Inhibition of this subunit results in a decrease of the immune cell signaling cascade and a halt of the production of cytokines associated with autoimmune inflammation, without affecting proteasome function in non-immune cells. As a consequence, PR-957 induces an anti-inflammatory response at doses less than one tenth the Maximum Tolerated Dose (MTD). In contrast, nonselective inhibitors, such as bortezomib and carfilzomib, induce anti-inflammatory responses only at or near their MTD. These findings also underline the key role played by the immunoproteasome in development of the inflammatory process.

There is thus a whole new range of treatments coming and many of them are fasttracked because of their anti-cancer capabilities.  They will likely be rigorously safety tested and available for off label application for the treatment of a wide range of autoimmune syndromes including Peyronie's within a few years.  - George

[newguy]

George - Thanks for being willing to try this out. Is anyone else planning on taking it? If people have good experiences with it, I suppose there is potential for trying to get hold of halofuginone somehow and getting it tested to ensure that we have the real deal. Compared to many treatments after reading the research, I feel that there is potential here. Fingers crossed.

[young25]

i have got hold of pycnogenol and I already have L-arginine in stack.. I am planning to start the protocol today 30 mg pycnogenol & 500 mg argnine.. In a week I will double the amount of both... but before I start I read on the internet that pycnogenol helps in collagen synthesis.. Can anybody clarify whether it will be beneficial or it has a potential to worsen peyronies



PS: Google keywords to search pycnogenol collagen

[slowandsteady]

I'm not quite so worried about pycnogenol and collagen.

• Pycnogenol helps with varicose veins (people with varicose veins have a decreased ability to break down fibrin), and it seems to help with 'chronic veinous insufficiency'. I wonder whether relaxing the blood vessels allows the body's repair mechanisms to work better.
  
• In Variations in C-reactive protein, plasma free radicals and fibrinogen values in patients with osteoarthritis treated with Pycnogenol (PMID 19017467), "Fibrinogen levels were found to be lowered to 62.8% of initial values (P < 0.05) in response to Pycnogenol". Fibrinogen is the precursor to fibrin.
  

s&s

[young25]

Thanks S&S,

I already popped my pill yesterday... tho started with less dose of arginine will be increasing it to 1 mg today and double frm next week.

[cowboyfood]

Question,

I've been taking on a daily basis the following amounts for the PAV cocktail:

Pentox: 1000mg (2.5 pills)
L-Arginine: 3g
Viagra: 25mg (0.25 pill)

I'm thinking of taking the 25mg of viagra every other day instead of daily.  

So, my question is if this is "alright", according to anyone's understanding of the PAV cocktail regiment?  Actually, if anyone can explain the "workings" of the PAV cocktail, that would also be greatly appreciated.

I've taken the viagra every other day a few times and I noticed that I still get daytime and nocturnal erections on the viagra "missed" day.  Although I'm trying to treat my condition aggressively, I'm trying to avoid any "unnecessary" intake of viagra (or other supplements/prescriptions).

Besides the PAV cocktail, I'm also taking ALC (2.5g) , Vitamin E (400mg) , and Vitamin D3 (2,000) on a daily basis, along with the VED physical therapy.

thanks.

CF

[YoungOne]

You mean 3g of L-Arginine, 3,000mg.  I currently take 3,000mg of L-Arginine daily and I am going to ask my uro for pentox tomorrow. Are these bad to take in combination? Since my understanding is that both increase blood flow/circulation.

Edited to remove a quotation that quoted an entire post in violation of forum rules
Hawk

[cowboyfood]

YoungOne,

you're assumption is right; I'm taking 3 g of L-arginine...I corrected my post.

CF

[YoungOne]

went in for second round of verapamil injections today. did it with out lidocaine. but actually wasnt too bad.

my goal for the visit was pentox script. I had documents from the PDS resources but as soon as i said pentox he said I am not writing a script for that. I think these doctors arent willing to throw their name down on a script that they dont believe in for doctoral reasons, especially if they are working with other uros at a clinic that do not do it as well. I am going to beg my general practicioner for it.

One more question......what do you guys think.....since i have a couple miniscule breaks in the skin from the injections this morning, should i maybe crush a vitamin e pill and rub the fluid on my plaque. or is this stupid idead?  

[newguy]

I got the same response, so I ended up paying through the teeth to buy it online. Not ideal really, but that's the way it is I guess. It's a shame a urologist would be closedminded to what is essentially a safe drug that likely offers some benefit. I really don't see what the issue is. To refuse to even look at the resources you brought along is pretty rude if you ask me. Like you say though, maybe there's an element of peer pressure.

[cowboyfood]

I got the same response, so I ended up paying through the teeth to buy it online.

The first uro I saw refused to prescribe Pentox because he said the FDA had not endorsed its use for Peyronies Disease.  He did glance at the Pentox information I brought with me from this forum to the visit and he was aware of Dr. Lue and said he believed he was a very qualified doctor to endorse the use of Pentox.  

However, he was considerate enough to refer me to another uro who he believed was more "knowledgeable" about the latest efforts to treat Peyronies Disease and one that he believed would prescribe Pentox.  I saw the uro he referred me to and the second uro prescribed me Pentox.

CF

[George999]

YoungOne,  If you tell us what part of the world you are in, someone here might be able to suggest a uro who WILL be willing to prescribe Pentox for you AFTER you finish with the verapamil treatments in order to make sure the Peyronie's doesn't come back or worsen.  I would be very cautious about taking Pentox at the same time as the injections since it can cause bleeding and you would not want bleeding issues while getting the injections.  - George

[newguy]

CF- Thanks for your input. My GP and urologist experiences in the UK have all been through the NHS. The National Health Service on the whole does work, but funds are alloted to various areas and as such, and its all rather regimented. I had no luck getting pentox and strangely the most accepted treatment appears to be Extracorporeal shockwave therapy. I potentially could give that a go, but there isn't much enthusiasm for it here, so I have doubts about its effectiveness. If I stumbled across another UK user who does get the treatment on the NHS, it would be somewhat heartening. It's not impossible, but it all very much depends who your GP is and the urologist he refers you to.It's possible to go private and I did look into that, but private healthcare plans are not all that commonplace here, so i'd have to pay for the drug directly anyway.

If I was able to get pentox on the NHS it would cost me just the price of a prescription, whiich is around £6 i think. So next to nothing. I might try to connect with more UK peyronies sufferers . I'm not sure how yet, but where there's a will there's a way. It might help us try to oush on understanding of the disease here.

I have tried to find out what government policy is concerning peyronie's. I found this note from an exchange in parliament in 2007, but not much else

Peyronie's Disease: Medical Treatments
Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what advice she has provided to NHS trusts on the recommended treatment for Peyronie's disease; [126255]

(2) which NHS trusts will provide implants as treatment for Peyronie's disease. [126256]

Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Department has not provided national health service trusts with advice on the treatment of Peyronie's disease. Treatment options will depend on the severity of the disease, and can include the insertion of an implant for the most severe cases.

Information on which trusts provide implants as treatment for Peyronie's disease is not collected.

[young25]

study demonstrating use of Pentox+arginine+ Via

http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3908&context=postprints

[UK]

Newguy
I got a private prescription initially which cost £90 for 3 months and then followed up with my GP who gave me a regular prescription. Tamoxifen is the drug of choice with the NHS.

[newguy]

Newguy
I got a private prescription initially which cost £90 for 3 months and then followed up with my GP who gave me a regular prescription. Tamoxifen is the drug of choice with the NHS.

Great! Do you think it was helpful for you to get a private prescription first? Do you think that made your request more credible and logical? If so, maybe that is the route I should go. Was your GP quite open to suggestions and understanding? It seems that way. Thanks for this info UK, I was given the impression that it wasn't an option. I can potentially change my GP if he refuses to help.

young25 - Thanks for the link . Even though its a few years old, I hadn't seen it before!

[slowandsteady]

I don't know if this study about astragaloside IV has been mentioned yet  (PMID 19429320):

[...]Antifibrotic activities of Astragalus membranaceus have been extensively proved. [...] The levels of transforming growth factor-beta(1) (TGF-beta(1)) in serum and expression in liver were significantly decreased by astragaloside IV. Collagen synthesis and proliferation were significantly inhibited by astragaloside IV (1.5, 3.0, 6.0, 12.0 and 24.0 mg L(-1)) in HSCs. CONCLUSION: The results showed that astragaloside IV displays antifibrotic effects in rats induced by PS, the mechanism by which might be associated with its inhibitory effects on collagen synthesis and proliferation in HSCs[hepatic stellate cells].

Inhibiting TGFbeta1 and collagen synthesis and proliferation sound promising.

From this imminst.org post in a long astragaloside thread:

It appears EDTA tken with Astragaloside IV increases absorption by 30 fold, while 0.1% chitosan increases absorption by over 60 fold.

s&s

[newguy]

There's certainly some very interesting studies appearing for both astragaloside IV and Resveratrol. Astragaloside IV is all the rage on anti-aging forums, due to its possible stablising/lengthening of telomeres. That's neither here nor there to me, but these other studies are rather interesting and provide us with an opportunity to try somethiung cutting edge to help with our condiition. Maybe it won't be helpful, but I'm willing to give it a go.

I sent off for some from revgenetics yesterday. Worth a shot. It's likely take a couple of weeks to get here since I'm in the UK.

[RichB]

I upped my dose of l-arginine to 4 grams instead of 3 last night and experienced some pretty intense (probably amplified due to my recent lack of sleep) side effects from the lower blood pressure, I was wondering if that one episode might have had any serious effects on my health? I haven't been taking my Vit-E because I don't like the way it makes me feel. Anyone else have any bad experiences with l-arginine?

[newguy]

I seriously doubt that whatever occured will have any real negative impact on your health. Maybe it's not even related to your l-arginine intake? To be on the safe side though, or if you fear this could happen again, maybe it would be sensible to scale it back.

I rarely have any adverse effects from any drugs. Viagra made me feel kind of light headed the first couple of times I took it, but then that went away. Niacin gave me a serious niacin flush and evelated heart rate the first time I took it, but again that went away after I'd taken it a couple of times.

L-arginine has never given me problems but I don't ever recall taking over a couple of grams a day, so maybe others will chime in with their experiences.

[Fred22]

I haven't been taking my Vit-E because I don't like the way it makes me feel.

RichB,

What side effects are you attributing to the vit. E and are you sure it's the vit. E that is causing them?

Fred

[slowandsteady]

I had a quick look at resveratrol and collagen and fibrosis.

In Resveratrol inhibits AGEs-induced proliferation and collagen synthesis activity in vascular smooth muscle cells from stroke-prone spontaneously hypertensive rats (PMID 10903896):

Resveratrol significantly inhibited AGEs-induced TGF-β1 mRNA increases in a dose-dependent manner.

In Effect of resveratrol on myocardial fibrosis in mice with chronic viral myocarditis (PMID 19374815):

[The mice] were randomly assigned to 4 groups: untreated VMC, and low- (10 mg/kg), middle- (100 mg/kg) and high-dose (1 000 mg/kg) resveratrol-treated VMC (once daily, for 30 days). Ten mice which received neither Coxsackievirus B3 nor resveratrol treatment served as the control group. After 30 days of resveratrol treatment, the mice were sacrificed. Serum concentrations of collagenous pre-peptides (PINP, PICP and PIIINP) were assessed using ELISA. Hematoxylin-eosin staining, picrosirius red staining and circularly polarized light were used to examine the histochemistry of myocardial collagen. RESULTS: The myocardial collagen volume fraction in the high-dose (0.74+/-0.19) and the middle-dose (1.07+/-0.12) resveratrol-treated VMC groups was significantly lower than that in the untreated VMC (2.33+/-0.18) and the low-dose resveratrol-treated VMC (2.17+/-0.19) groups (P<0.05). Compared with the untreated VMC group, serum concentrations of PICP and PIIINP in the high-dose and the middle-dose resveratrol-treated VMC groups were significantly reduced (P<0.05), while PINP concentrations increased significantly (P<0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Resveratrol can inhibit hyperplasia of myocardial collagen in the mouse model of chronic VMC, acting as an effective anti-fibrotic agent in the myocardium.

The lowest effective dose was 100mg/kg. Scaling by a factor of 0.13 would give 13mg/kg for a human (a 150 pound guy would get 886 mg -- easily doable). Cool.

In A rapid and sensitive screening system for human type I collagen with the aim of discovering potent anti-aging or anti-fibrotic compounds (PMID 18810249):

Lactic acid, EGCG, resveratrol, and retinol that can inhibit collagen synthesis effectively in a dose-dependent manner may be used for anti-fibrosis treatment purposes.

EGCG is grean tea extract. I've posted on that one before. Retinol is vitamin A.

One more study, Resveratrol prevents fibrosis, NF-kappaB activation and TGF-beta increases induced by chronic CCl4 treatment in rats(PMID 17429801):

Resveratrol is a nonflavonoid polyphenol with antioxidant, anticancer and antiinflammatory properties. Moreover, it has been reported that this compound inhibits NF-kappaB, which regulates the transcription of several genes including cytokines such as the profibrogenic TGF-beta. ... One of the most prominent effects was on fibrosis which increased near 5-fold (hydroxyproline) in the CCl(4) group; resveratrol preserved the content of collagen. These results were corroborated by histopathology. To elucidate the antifibrogenic mechanism of resveratrol, the activation of NF-kappaB and the production of TGF-beta were measured; in both cases CCl(4) increased them and resveratrol abolished them; however, changes in NF-kappaB were modest and did not reach statistical significance, while the increase in TGF-beta was about three fold and resveratrol decreased it under control values. Together, the present results indicate that resveratrol possesses a strong antifibrogenic effect at least in the CCl(4) model of cirrhosis. Moreover, the action mechanism is probably associated with its ability to reduce NF-kappaB activation and TGF-beta content.

For me, I'm looking at astragaloside IV/chitosan at night and transresveratrol/soy lecithin after breakfast.

s&s

[newguy]

slowandsteady - Great research. I already have some low dose resveratrol , but have will be upping my doseage as well as taking Astragaloside IV when it arrives. A powerful combination.  

[slowandsteady]

slowandsteady - Great research. I already have some low dose resveratrol , but have will be upping my doseage as well as taking Astragaloside IV when it arrives. A powerful combination.

Thanks. In the astragaloside thread at imminst.org, the consensus seems to be to either cycle resveratrol and astagaloside IV to different parts of the day or to different weeks. Their concern is to lengthen telomeres for life extension, as opposed to the antifibrosis angle.

[YoungOne]

Is it bad to take pentox and l-arginine at the same time? given that they both encourage blood flow.

[George999]

Doctors actually instruct their patients to take Pentox and L-Arg together.  Increased bloodflow is not harmful therefore no one worries about it.  Only those effects that are harmful are monitored.  For example, Pentox can cause bleeding.  Thus we would be concerned about Pentox + Vitamin E for example, since both can cause bleeding.  However, much of the Vitamin E bleeding effect can be canceled with Vitamin K, so there are ways to deal with even these things many times.  Pentox and L-Arg together are not a problem.  - George

[joecancer]

Is it bad to take pentox and l-arginine at the same time? given that they both encourage blood flow.

I've been wondering the same thing.  My uro prescribed pentox and cialis, but when I called and asked if I could take arginine too, he told me to go see my general practice doctor to see if it is ok.  I haven't done that yet, and I'm not sure if it's even necessary.  Still, the fact that he didn't just say it's ok did cause me some concern.  But I'm also wondering if adding arginine to pentox and cialis is even going to make a difference - or is that just overload?  I mean, if the pentox and cialis aren't going to work, is adding arginine going to make a big difference?  I don't know the answers, but maybe someone here does.  Thanks, Joe.

[newguy]

Studies on rats with induced peyronies like conditions have success using pentox, l-arginine and viagra. In humans the results are not typically so impressive, but maybe this is because different mechanisms are at work, or due to the time between developing the condition and taking the PAV cocktail. That's not to say that it isn't of use. Along with VED use, or probably the most proactive combo a person can take. I don't recall any negative statements regarding the use of them together. The same combo has been used in priapism in humans and now in peyronie's disease. Again, I don't think taking them together is an issue.

George is likely right to point out that a pentox and Vitamin E combo has more scope for causing bleeding, but even they have been used together in many human studies. If you are perfectly fit and healthy, I don't think it's something you should be too concerned about unless you have a particular condition or set of circumstance which make it a bad idea.  

[cowboyfood]

Doctors actually instruct their patients to take Pentox and L-Arg together.

My uro prescribed me Pentox after I told him I was taking L-arginine, ALC, and Vitamin E (only 400 mg) daily.

I can't personally "vouch" for the following web site nor it's information, but an Ohio uro stated that the use of Pentox, arginine, alc, and cialis is an "optimal" combination:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Urology-Male-issues-989/2009/1/curvature-pentoxyfilline.htm

I found the link while I was searching for Pentox info...I posted the link in the "urologists" section for those near Ohio.

I'm using viagra, but I'm going to inquire about switching to Cialis.

CF

[Tim468]

Reading his answer to the stated question, and his website, this guy is on the ball!

Tim

[slowandsteady]

Out of the various enzymes that get mentioned (nattokinase, serrapeptase, bromelain, papain, catalase, etc.), which have people found to be the most helpful?

s&s

[cowboyfood]

Reading his answer to the stated question, and his website, this guy is on the ball!

Tim

His answer leads to the reasonable conclusion that his source is Tim, Hawk, George, Old Man, Angus, newguy, etc...

[George999]

Tim,  I think you should consider adding Dr. Leslie's Peyronie's page to the resource documents.  It is exhaustive and excellent in my opinion.  In addition, ANYONE in the Ohio neighborhood should take note of this guy!  - George

http://www.drleslie.org/peyronies.html


Anyone in Ohio looking for a Peyonie's savvy doc?

http://www.drleslie.org/physician.shtml

[RichB]

Someone should see if he could post this website along with the others he had listed.

[slowandsteady]

Curcumin has worked pretty well for me in relieving plaque inflammation. I take the LEF product but open the capsules and mix the contents directly into an oil (coconut milk, coconut oil, or olive oil). The taste is fairly mild. I was away over the weekend and curcumin was the only thing I took with me, giving me a chance to test which of my supplements was responsible.
PMID 19457704:

Connective tissue growth factor (CTGF) is associated with the onset and progression of fibrosis in many human tissues. Areca nut (AN) chewing is the most important etiological factor in the pathogenesis of oral submucous fibrosis (OSF). We immunohistochemically examined the expression of CTGF protein in 20 cases of OSF and found positive CTGF staining in fibroblasts and endothelial cells in all cases. Western blot analysis showed that arecoline, a main alkaloid found in AN, stimulated CTGF synthesis in a dose- and time-dependent manner in buccal mucosal fibroblasts. Constitutive overexpression of CTGF during AN chewing may enhance the fibrotic activity in OSF and play a role in the pathogenesis of OSF. Pretreatment with NF-kappaB inhibitor Bay 11-7082, JNK inhibitor SP600125, p38 MAPK inhibitor SB203580 and antioxidant N-acetyl-l-cysteine, but not ERK inhibitor PD98059, significantly reduced arecoline-induced CTGF synthesis. Furthermore, curcumin completely inhibited arecoline-induced CTGF synthesis and the inhibition is dose-dependent. These results indicated that arecoline-induced CTGF synthesis was mediated by ROS, NF-kappaB, JNK, P38 MAPK pathways and curcumin could be a useful agent in controlling OSF.

Study on antifibrotic effects of curcumin in rat hepatic stellate cells (PMID 19152370):

Suppression of activation or fibrogenesis and induction of apoptosis, in hepatic stellate cells (HSCs) have been proposed as therapeutic strategies against liver fibrosis. Curcumin, an active compound isolated from yellow curry pigment of turmeric (Curcuma longa Linn), has been demonstrated to be an effective anti-inflammatory and antioxidant compound. In this study, we investigated the in vitro antifibrogenic effects of curcumin on HSCs at the concentration range of (1-40 microM). A cell line of rat HSCs (HSC-T6) was stimulated with transforming growth factor-beta1 (TGF-beta1). The inhibitory effects of curcumin (1.25 approximately 10 microM) on fibrosis-related markers including alpha-smooth muscle actin (alpha-SMA) and collagen were assessed. In addition, the induction effects of curcumin (20 approximately 40 microM) on apoptosis in HSC-T6 cells were also assessed by Hoechst and propidium iodide stains. Curcumin (1.25 approximately 10 microM) concentration-dependently suppressed TGF-beta1-induced alpha-SMA expression and collagen deposition in HSC-T6 cells, without cytotoxicity. Whereas, higher concentrations of curcumin (20 approximately 40 microM) induced cell apoptosis and cytochrome c release in HSC-T6 cells. Our results suggest that curcumin exerted antifibrotic effects, possibly through two different mechanisms depending on its concentrations. At lower concentrations (1.25 approximately 10 microM), curcumin exerted antifibrogenic effects, whereas at higher concentrations (20 approximately 40 microM), curcumin exerted induction of apoptosis in HSCs.

It's interesting that the article "Peyronie's disease: an anatomically-based hypothesis and beyond" presents the hypothesis of Peyronie's as 'trapped inflammation' (trapped due to the physical structure of the tunica albuginea). One of the treatment strategies suggested by the author if this hypothesis is true would be using an "anti-cytokine agent such as anti-TGFb in the form of receptor blocker". Curcumin inhibits TGFb:

PMID 19539560:

Furthermore, the mRNA expression of the cytokine profiles was assessed by quantitative reverse-transcription polymerase chain reaction (qRT-PCR), revealing the dramatic decrease of IL-17, TGF-beta, IL-6, IL-21, STAT3, and RORgammat expression in curcumin-treated groups and STAT3-phosphorylation also was inhibited.

s&s

[George999]

This is interesting!  I also believe that curcumin and oil (in my case cannola oil) have been helpful to me.  I have been using them for some time now.  - George

[newguy]

Certainly sounds worthy of trying. I've sent off for some from iherb. I had assumed that ordering from the states would always take ten days +, but apparently the order should arrive in day days or less at a reduced delivery charge. Great! Much cheaper than most UK supplements. I have no idea why we tend to be charged a premium for everything here!!

Lots of life extension type forums have concerns about the bioavailablity, but disolving it within oil certainly seems like the best way of making sure that the body makes the best use of the curcumin, well until more advanced formulas or methods are introduced. Many use it with black pepper, but that appears to have some drawbacks and can interfere with medications.

[Skjaldborg]

I just started taking Pentox (400mg, 3x daily) and have noticed that after the 2nd dosage (in the afternoon) that I feel a bit nauseous for several hours. I do take it with food as was recommended. Has this happened to anyone else? Will this go away? I notice I don't feel as bad with the 3rd dosage in the evening.  

Regardless, I will probably power through for as long as I can. The Uro found a lot of abnormal tissue a few days ago (all along where I was injured) and I want to keep at this as long as possible. Nothing like a good challenge!  

Thanks and best to all,

Skjald

[newguy]

Skjaldborg - It appears to be a relatively common side effect, and I'd say that taking it with food certainly helps. For the first week or so I had the same reaction, but ever since, I've had no such problems regardless of whether or not I take pentox with food.

[slowandsteady]

I have been taking 2g of acetyl-l-carnitine on an empty stomach in the morning (and was taking a gram before my Peyronies Disease surfaced). I notice that on days I don't take it, inflammation in an active plaque region I have is much reduced.

I don't know whether this is because it's just inflammatory by itself, or whether either taking a smaller dose or taking it with ALA would help. I might do some experiments since I have a built-in inflammation detector, unfortunately.

Some people at imminst.org have formed a consensus that Na R-ALA is the best form of ALA and should be taken in a 1:10 ratio with ALC for anti-aging benefits for the mitochondria. The rationale behind taking R-ALA with ALC varies from person to person.

s&s