ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[ComeBacKid]

I couldn't fit in the A cylinder as well man.   Thats probably normal.  I only get acid reflux if I don't take the pentox with food.  I'm just starting it up again, before I was on it for a year and saw results from it.  After I stopped for a year and a half my gains slowly got worse and I slowly lose size, mainly after about six months of holding my gains.  My penis has also noticeably become harder and shrunken again.  This time I plan to stay on pentox for as long as possible, possibly years....

Comebackid

[Freddie]

Ive read alto of posts, and I'm absolutely shocked that I haven't seen anybody talk about a website called actionlove.com  Ive been improving gradually now for 18 months- it took me 18 months prior to figure out how!  The only real way to heal is to boost you testosterone level naturally using dhea 25- 75 mg a day, 500mg tribulas a day, and 1500-3000 mg L- arginine, fish oil 3 times a day, and a complete vit pack either from the site or gnc or somewhere.  Ive recorded all my trials, and one of the most important rules is to not ejaculate more than 2 times a week- this retains potency for nightime erections. You also have to erect once a day- morning or evening to get fresh blood in penis.But if your in a bad condition, wrapping with warm wet towel may have to be the best you can do for some time(and relying on nightime erections) In time, your scars with soften, and than they begin to dissolve. Go to ballooning techniques on the site.  You have to balloon(erect fully) and massage penis very lightly for no more than 5 minutes a day, than massage by rubbing very lightly with his vip cream. I prefer to erect at evening. In morning, I don't erect, and I just rub cortisone-10 onto my penis, and wrap in a wet towel (100-105 degrees) for 5 minutes. This does a great job softening scars. You have to take a day off from cortisone cream every 3 days to avoid thinning out tissue.  Practice ballooning, but do not massage more than 10 minutes a day- or you will have too much inflammatory hormones which inflames tissue more, and usually triggers ejaculation.   I'm not an expert, but I hope this helps everybody out. It takes a long time to soften and dissolve scars and improve condition. Id say 1-3 years. Cardio exercises is very helpful too. Also- do not try strecting or bending back. This will only make it worse. Ill write more soon.

[ComeBacKid]

I came across this webpage years ago, it looks like its run by an asian doctor who struggles with english.  I researched it for days and found it to be exremely shadey with its own "store," selling powders and pills with fancy innovative sounding names.  Freddie, where you from?  Do you have Peyronies Disease?  When did you get it?  I'm sure some of our members will check out this site and go over it thoroughly, we are good at rooting out all the junk.

Comebackid

[George999]

Just type actionlove into the search function at the top of the page and you will see that it has been discussed a bit back in 2005 and 2006.  I guess it hasn't worked that well for those who may have given it a try to be worth pursuing further.  I, personally, prefer treatments that have some degree of scientific evidence indicating that they might be effective.  I looked over the actionlove sight myself some years back and found it to be mostly hearsay and marketing.  I wasn't very convinced and I'm still not convinced.  For me to shell out money on some sort of pill or cream, I need some scientific evidence in advance that it is going to work.  I also prefer to get my guidance from a medical doctor, not a PhD who has no medical training.  Peyronie's is very difficult to treat and that creates a perfect environment for hucksters to hawk their wares and empty our pockets.  The easiest way to do that is by astroturfing.  Astroturfing is a practice of visiting websites where Peyronie's sufferers congregate and faking stories of successful treatments to draw in sales.  Don't get me wrong Freddie.  I am not accusing you of doing this.  But I am going to have to see some evidence that you are not doing this in order to take you seriously.  Its the old adage that if it sounds to good to be true it usually is, and your story sounds pretty good and a little to easy when it comes to dealing with something like Peyronies.  But anyway, welcome to the group.  - George

[Freddie]

Hi guys- Yes- I have peyronies- but no joke- it does work- if you think its a scam- thats why I said to get your vit from gnc if you wish- because the practices really work- but I figure people would not believe it, because the doctor sells his own products and you would think its a scam- injections damage the tissue more- when tissue is damaged- protein collagens (scar) replace good tissue- but like a scab on your arm- the scab must be warm and moist(coveredd by bandaid) to heal quicker- your penis needs blood(erection) but naturally-  when you have ample hormones(test) you cant get erection, and massage it on bottom with your fingers on both sides of penis, and a test burst gives you a more powerful erection - high pressure blood flow to penis to deliver fresh blood and nutrients- Im here to help-I got peyronies 6 years ago when I had seminal dysfuntion from a low test level, and I would squeeze harder when masterbating to come, but couldnt!!- than it inflameed and became like a big hung sausage- still couldnt come- so I was like milking my inflames penis to come  and stretched the tissue- I honestly didnt Jelq- but I am recovering from same symptoms- ok   That site is no nonsense I tell you - write to him.  If you think its a money maker- than use products like gnc vita pack. wb Freddie

[Freddie]

Basically, my penis was like a rock in its flacid state, and curved about 20-30  degrees to the right, my entire penis was collagen scar, but much worse on the right, I think I banged it years ago- but honestly- I realy dont f-in know lol you know how it is most of the damge was from squeezing it really hard when I couldnt come- (inflamed prostate made me have sexual arousal though)now it is 10 degrees and keeps improving, and 75% of penis is back to soft in flacid state!  Look ,I know your frustration of whos b-s ing. I have calenders for the last 3 years recording everything- Ive been to 5 US doctors- What a f-ing joke!!!!!!!!!! Take vitE?? yeah right- good luck!!  Switch hands!! Good luck!!  You know whats a scam- The Peyronies Disease Institutes streching video- trust me- do not try stretching it back- Although- their treatment methods most of them are correct. And I was going to switch to them, but I was getting results from Dr. Lin on the Actionlove site- Thank Goodness- because when I saw when they came out with a video to stretch your penis, I knew they were lost in the woods wb Freddie

[Iceman]

i tried to read the action love site but it made no sense - when he says no stretching does this mean not to use a VED - also what is ballooning??

[mikesb]

I ALWAYS take Pentox with food, in my case very easy to accomplish as I am only popping them twice a day. Once my doc has evaluated me after 3 months of usage I plan to get up to the Lue/Levine recommended usage of three times daily. My doc was working from a large meds book that specified the optimal doseage as 2 or 3 pills a day (of course as related to the usual prescription of this med for leg circulation issues) and so wanted to monitor me on the lower acceptable doseage first prior to bumping up to the Levine doseage I presented him. 3 months is up in March.

[Tim468]

Freddie, your posts read a bit like an advertisement for actionlove. Most of us have found him to be a quack.

Tim

[Freddie]

Listen all- If you think its an advertisement, than use vitamens from elsewhere, but use his priciples- Your penis has dht receptors in them-the idea is to regrow penis back- like you grew it during puberty- as far as lumps- I think you can improve them, and give them elasticity- I didnt have a lump - but I sort of did- my entire penis was like a rock in flacid, and skinny and in hard, and on right bottom I had a mass of collagen scar from trying to strech back a minor curve-only to make it worse-as far as what you guys call scientific data- hes the ONLY one that makes sense! Hes the only one that even shows what a normal erection looks like. I honestly dont know if a real lump can be fully dissolved, but I know through my own experience it can be improved to its full potential through his theory.  Any cutting is permanent damage, and should be a last resort- any injection with a needle is permanant damage and should be avoided. I had immediate ejaculation when my penis was in a rock flacid state, because of inflamatory hormone which triggers immediate ejaculation. Look, Ive read so much of that site, and its the real deal, and his scientific data, evidence and facts put any other doctor Ive seen or visited to shame. Yes, he speaks chinese- who cares! His english isnt perfect.  I had my doubts too- many doubts- I was always so paniced that I couldnt stop erecting my penis to see if it was getting better- than I would always ejaculate- This would hamper my progress, because one of the biggest things to follow is to limit ejac to 1-2 times a week to preserve your hormones to get nightime erections for healing. The hot towel wraps (105 degrees ) help soften scar tissue, and than reduce pain(5-10 min)  3 times a day- I than, through my own personal preference, take the towel and submerge it in cold water and wrap penis- oh how nice that feels! At the same time I use the rest of the towel on my testes(cool, not freezing) to promote teste production. Ill write more- there is so much to cover  Freddie

[Freddie]

Also , before I go- Dr. Lin does recomend VED ONLY if you cannot erect penis naturally- but DO NOT pump 100%! I believe he recomends pumpimg about 50% for about 2 minutes-release- repeat 4 times I think once or twice a day- This is to bring fresh blood, hormones, and oxygen into penis to heal- not for sex. You should always be taking vitamens(ex Gnc mega men vitality, l-arginine 500-1000 3 times a day(as long as you dont have herpes- will trigger outbreak) fish oil 1000mg 3 times a day, dhea 25-75 mg day, Tribulas to boost test if needed 250-500 mg a day, 3mg melatonin, b-complex, 5-htp, 25-50mg dhea at bedtime for nightime erections. Cardio excercise, at least walking, and light weights are important for mind and body every day-not only does it help with depression, it will keep you much more sane- because your taking test boosters for nightime erections- but when you excersice, the muscles distribute test throughout body, otherwise, just sitting idle- much of the test sits in your brain , and you will be even more crazy- also excersise promotes your bodies own hormones, rids toxins that yes may be even in the vitamins, and gets rid of inflamatory hormones!! If you dont trust the site- than buy a cupping set online to give your muscles a deep tissue massage--Circulation is VERY IMPORTANT!!!!- Freddie

[Freddie]

your case is very similiar to mine- just read your 2 posts-  if your the only man here I can convince that Dr. Lin is not a quack like every one else thinks, than at least I have done my good deed. Rule one- stop masterbating! since you have a curve, masterbating will be constantly stretching the scar. Ejaculate no more than 1-2 times a week- mark it on a calender- never ejac 2 times in one day- every 4 days is idael at most- I just posted on main page more advice. Listen Kenny, Im new to this site, Ive been reading actionlove site for 3 years- what Ive seen here unfortunatly is most guys taking the very wrong path. Lins site will clearly explain how injections, strething, and over ejaculating are the worst things to do.  Your ejac volume is a real measure of your test level- ejaculating watery seman is very bad- you will def need test boosters- I recomend always taking at least 50 mg dhea, 250-500 mg trib, and the gnc vitality pack- the last thing you want is to be sexually exhausted. The balooning is complicated Id wait 3 days without ejac, get erection, and see if when you massage base of penis, you feel a surge- you may have to wait few weeks and avoid ejac and take test boosters to baloon-I should write a book to explain in laymens terms how to do this- I have always been into science- thats how I understand Dr. Lin Also- Viagra and all those erction pills when you are deficiant of your natural hormones induce an unatural erection, and over strecth the tissues and veins due to deficiancy of prostagladin E-1 Freddie

[George999]

Freddie,  While some of what you say makes good sense and is actually stuff that many of us are doing already and other things you are promoting like hot towel wraps make sense and are good suggestions, a lot of the other stuff is just so much nonsense.  The whole thing about tribulus promoting testosterone for example.  The reality is that tribulus has been subjected to a significant amount of clinical research and it has NEVER demonstrated ANY ability to increase testosterone.  Claiming that it does is NOT science no matter how scientific it may sound.  And this is just one example.  Some of the things you are suggesting are actually potentially dangerous.  DHEA and Melatonin for example.  DHEA messes with hormones and Melatonin IS a hormone.  Melatonin experts warn people not to take more than 1mg.  And using melatonin on a regular basis can cause problems.  I myself had a very serious autoimmune reaction from just 1mg of melatonin.  The risks from continued us of DHEA are significant as well and there is no scientific evidence that it can provide any benefit.  And the idea of testosterone sitting on the brain, that is just to ridiculous to even comment on.  - George

[George999]

Your ejac volume is a real measure of your test level- ejaculating watery seman is very bad- you will def need test boosters- I recomend always taking at least 50 mg dhea, 250-500 mg trib, and the gnc vitality pack- the last thing you want is to be sexually exhausted.

Anyone concerned about their testosterone levels should get them tested by their doctor.  The advice Freddie is giving is quackery pure and simple.  Talk to ANY medical doctor and they will tell you that this is nonsense.  ALWAYS get your advice from a qualified licensed medical doctor, not from some anonymous person on the Internet!  - George

[ComeBacKid]

I'm only taking two pills a day now to, so taking it with food is easy.  I will bump it up to 3 pills down the road, but for now I'm slowly wading back into pentox.  I've got faith in this drug cause I've seen what it did before.  

Comebackid

[Freddie]

George listen- its smart to take for instance ex the gnc vitality pack to get as many NATURAL test boosters IF YOU NEED THEM to get a NATURAL erection to deliver fresh blood oxygen, nutrinents, for softening scar and eventually dissolving.  Test levels are responsible for how much muscle, and energy, and yes- I know from experience that over ejaculating 2-3 times a day will completely deplete you of essential hormones, and drive your test level to the ground. Once this happens, yes you may be able to erect, but you will be erecting without the sufficiant hormones and prostaglandin E-1 to sufficiantly support natural streching of the tissue, veins in penis and for healing. You will also get manopause(night sweats)Over ejaculation will lead to a watery seman, and inflamation of the penis, testes, and prostate and screw everything up. The melatonin is over the counter- OK so you have a bad reaction, Im sorry- most people dont- so than you cant take it. The panic and stress from peyronies, we need something to help sleep- natural drugs- not drugs that screw up the liver(the primary sex organ responsible for converting hormones for NATURAL erection) But if say a 20 year old kid is popping boners left and right- than he dont need  boosters, but most of us do after 30-35. A hard erection is necessary for healing.  Doctor prescribed test boosters should only be used is your testes cant get erection from natural drugs. Given too much dose of test replacement will shrink and disable your testies.

[Hawk]

Freddie,

You are either a Dr. Luv shill or you have been duped without the knowledge necessary to even suspect the truth.  You have not proven ejaculating depleted hormones, nor has anyone else.  Did you have two thousand men with scientific hormone measurements divide into random groups and monitor hormone levels compared to rate of ejaculation?  No!  You just jumped to conclusions by making some arbitrary connection between your behavior and your interpretation of what you think your hormone level might be.

If you want to learn then read.  Learn how to evaluate evidence and some basics about rational thought and argument.  It will serve you not only with Peyronies Disease but in life.  Dr. Love is truly the closest thing there is to a comedy routine on the subject of sexual health.  Your belief in him does not change that.  Defending him more only makes you look more foolish.

For your reading, I suggest you start here and read this as many times as necessary until it makes sense.  
http://www.peyroniessociety.org/evaluating.htm

[ComeBacKid]

Who was the fellow who talked about changing the structure of the forum so one conversation was put underneath the starting topic?  I could see how here that might help as mikesb and I are talking mixed in with other posts from people talking about actionlove.    However you can see how we always drift off topic and new people add their two sense into a conversation which leads to something else...

As far as actionlove goes, you can tell alot of the talk on there is nonsense jibberish talking about massages and "ballooning," what the he@$# is ballooning?  Its not my birthday I'll pass on that.  Where are the studies and evidence from that site?  Perhaps the doctor should come on here and defend his product or explain his product if he believes in it...

Comebackid

[George999]

Dr Lin indicates on his own web site that his PhD is in engineering, NOT in medicine and not even in a related field.  It is obvious from the content of his web site that he has no training in medicine and specifically no training in urology.  Additionally, he has no research to back up his strange beliefs on these things.

Note that Freddie makes some very strange assertions such as the whole ridiculous "watery semen" stuff without any research to back them up.  These are things that any reputable urologist would find laughable.  In fact, studies have been done with Maca that demonstrate that it enhances and increases ejaculations but does not change testosterone levels.

Preliminary studies have shown that maca can increase libido in healthy men. It does this without influencing levels of testosterone or any other sex hormones. Healthy men who take maca have also been shown to have increased semen volume, increased sperm counts, and enhanced sperm motility.

Show me one reputable publication that indicates watery semen is related to low testosterone.  He can't, because it doesn't exist.

Freddie also somehow assumes that Peyronie's is directly linked to low testosterone levels.  While I would accept that low testosterone levels probably aggravate Peyronie's, I don't think everyone with Peyronie's has low testosterone levels.  In fact I would wager that there are people around with Peyronie's that have no problem getting perfectly normal nighttime erections without regard to their frequency of ejaculations.  Peyronie's is caused by a physiological problem, not by some sort of aberrant sexuality as Freddie implies.  The whole point here is to sell people on Dr Lin's penis cream.  - George

[Freddie]

Hey Guys- I did check out that link you gave me, and Hawk- Im not into talking smack, but perhaps you should read it again- there is no eveidence of positive results on any of those medicines. Im here with an open mind with this ridiculous problem, so chill out.  Now take a deep breath and listen- Your penis is made up of little baloons that fill up with blood in the chambers, and tissue. With the injuries we have sustained,  some of these small baloon were damaged and the surrounding tissue was strecthing by bending, snaping, or whatever- protien collagen(scar tissue) which is inelastic replaced the good tissue. When you try stretching this scar tissue, all your doing is inflaming the penis, which may numb it, reducing pain, but after the inflamation settles- you got MORE scar tissue.  The whole dam theory isnt frieken brain surgery damit! You have a damaged penis, so you need to get natural erections to bring fresh blood, oxygen, and nutrients to heal, and rejuvanate the broken baloons. Balooning is getting an erection and than massaging the base of penis on left and right side with your thumb and pointer all the way at the bottom by testes- IF you have sufficiant hormones- you will get a test burst shooting up penis. This powers up your penis to its full potential sending blood and nutrients-as far as ejaculation frequency- it depends on you! If you come every day, and still pop boners left and right, than your fine, but if your having trouble getting erections- you need hormone boosters-Again- erections heal the penis- especially nightime erections Freddie

[Freddie]

George- I told you gnc has the same products from his site if you think its a scam- The other thing is, maybe my case isnt as bad as others. I wish we all had perfect penises here, but we dont and thats why we are here.  I just know that Ive had great progress by doing the Lin techniques. and came here to share my progress. Ive seen this site in the past. You really should ponder though- How could brining fresh blood, oxygen, and nutrients to the penis bad for it? The whole idea of ejaculating 2 times a week is so you can erect it a couple times a day, but it should be just a little stimulation, when looking at porn or whatever- not sitting there for 20 min trying to get one- thats why your hormones should be at their peek.Erections Even just 1-2 times a day, a strong erection delivers the goods.

[George999]

Freddie, Peyronie's is caused by an autoimmune reaction.  Immune cells inflame the tissue by spewing cytokines into it.  This has been proven by a significant amount of research.  No amount of oxygen or hormones is going to help.  You have to stop the autoimmune reaction.

lPathophysiology of Peyronie's disease

Studies of Peyronie's patients have implicated an auto-immune component. It was shown that Peyronie's disease patients had at least one abnormal immunologic test (75.8%), alterations in cell-mediated immunity (48.5%) and in markers of auto-immune disease (37.9%). Another study found higher than normal levels of anti-elastin antibodies in the serum of patients with Peyronie's disease, suggesting an autoimmune etiology. It is likely that a certain proportion of men in this age group respond to mechanical tunical stress and microvascular trauma with an aberrant or hyperactive wound healing response. Thus, there may be a subpopulation whose genetic background is such that response to wound healing predisposes development of Peyronie's plaques.

Before you can successfully treat a disease you have to understand what is causing it.  It is very obvious that you don't have a clue.  As I said before, some of the things you are suggesting could very well be helpful, but the bulk of what you are coming up with is nonsense.  You need to start reading stuff written by REAL doctors and not by people pretending to be doctors.  - George

[Freddie]

Hawk -I went to 5 "real doctors" they can tell what caused it all they want- but to treat it???  The concept is to heal the scarred tissue from the adjacent good tissuewith nitrous oxide from l arginine, and deliver nutients to tissue. Its sort of like a wound or old scar- the outer part doesnt soften and dissolve fist- the adjacent tissue does. But it takes a long time for the penis, because the tinty blood baloons that fill up that were damaged need to be rejuvenated, and than they need to expand and grow  

[Freddie]

I meant George, not Hawk on that last one-  

[George999]

George- I told you gnc has the same products from his site if you think its a scam-

And my response was and still is that it is the cream that is the scam.  The other stuff is incidental.  Some of it is helpful.  Some is not.  Some is helpful to some guys and not to others.  But his site IS a scam.  He is pretending to be an expert on Peyronie's and he is not.  He is misusing his Dr title.  He is an engineer, not a medical doctor.  He should not be using his title to promote a treatment something he obviously knows nothing about.  It borders on practicing medicine without a license.  Its that simple.  And you are a fool for following him and promoting his site.

The other thing is, maybe my case isnt as bad as others. I wish we all had perfect penises here, but we dont and thats why we are here.  I just know that Ive had great progress by doing the Lin techniques.

If you are doing well, then I am glad for you.  If you want to talk about any of the things you are doing to achieve those benefits, you are certainly welcome to do so here and we will engage you on those issues.  Just please don't promote actionlove on this site.  Because, while some of the things he suggests may be helpful, his whole approach is unscientific and unethical, at least in my personal opinion, and the sooner you detach yourself from that approach the better off you will be.

How could brining fresh blood, oxygen, and nutrients to the penis bad for it? The whole idea of ejaculating 2 times a week is so you can erect it a couple times a day, but it should be just a little stimulation, when looking at porn or whatever- not sitting there for 20 min trying to get one- thats why your hormones should be at their peek.Erections Even just 1-2 times a day, a strong erection delivers the goods.

The PROBLEM with this is that is simplistically assumes that controlling ejaculation frequency and hormones can somehow enhance erections.  The reality is that erections are very complicated physiological processes and a multitude of things can enhance or diminish them.  A healthy man should have nightly erections that are sufficient to address Peyronie's issues.  This should not require porn to achieve.  If that is lacking, the guy in question needs to see a urologist to try to find out what it is that is causing the problem.  None of the supplements you have mentioned actually increases testosterone levels except perhaps DHEA, and I would be awfully careful with that because it can have long term side effects that might not be pleasant.  There are really only two types of supplements.  One type is useless and benefits result only from a placebo effect.  The other type is actually a drug being sold as a supplement.  And ALL drugs, even the ones you buy at the health store can cause side effects and even leave you worse off than you started.  I use supplements myself, but I NEVER suggest that since they are supplements they come without risk.  When I see people promoting supplements based on some assertion of safety, I shudder.  Effective supplements have risk and should be used judiciously.  And trying to mess around with Testosterone when it may not even be the problem in the first place is insanity.  I am all for warm towels, no problem there, but DHEA?  Forget it.  If you really want to get your hormones straight you should read up on Vitamin D.  Huge amounts of it are generated by full summer sun AND it is a pro-hormone.  And the hormone it generates in the body is the mother of all hormones in the regulatory sense.  Get more vitamin D and your hormones become better regulated.  You should also read up on the omentum, which is the fatty organ in your abdomen that gives people big guts.  The omentum converts testosterone into estrogen by creating aromatase enzyme.  The bigger the omentum the more efficiently it empties you of testosterone and fills you with estrogen.  Getting more vitamin D and shrinking your gut are healthy ways to increase testosterone levels.  Stuff like DHEA and HGH are not.  But remember, the problem may easily be something other than low testosterone.  And ONCE AGAIN, you are NOT going to stop Peyronie's without somehow arresting the autoimmune process.  Only things like Penoxifylline and Vitamin D can do that.  Other things can help and I am all for that, but ONLY autoimmune targeted drugs and vitamin D can stop an ongoing autoimmune process.  So don't try to advertise the actionlove stuff as some sort of cure.  ITS NOT!  - George

PS - Freddie, the "tiny balloons" that fill up with blood are NOT damaged with Peyronies.  It is the tunica albuginea that is damaged by an autoimmune process and thus does not expand.  You need to understand better the physiology side before you try to analyze this.  - George

[Freddie]

Hawk-  Your really confusing me, and pissing me off. First off, do you HAVE Peyronie's? Second, did you or any member on your site ever try Dr. Lins techniques? Third, before you think you have the smarts to be a wise guy to me and call me a Doctor Lin shill, whatever the hell that means, what do you know? Are you promoting that injection drug here? (Vermidil?)Every single patient here who used it including Old Man said it makes Peyronie's worse! It gives them MORE lumps and nodules- And I - not you Hawk know the scientific reason why. Every time you inject a needle into your penis it burst the tiny blood baloons that fill up the chambers permantly, leaving a knotty scar that cant be softened or repaired. The erection needle does the same thing. The more injections, the more hard scars.  When I came here, I was under the impression that this was a support and research site with an open mind to NEW discoveries for cures for peyronie's. Did you see the headline for this page Hawk? Oral Treatments  - Vitamins,  Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements  - Have you seen me post on any other page- NO! Because this is the treatment that has worked for me. If I were promoting bussiness, Id be all over your pages. Freddie

[George999]

Freddie,  When you make statements like "Every time you inject a needle into your penis it burst the tiny blood baloons that fill up the chambers permantly, leaving a knotty scar that cant be softened or repaired.", either provide a reference to a scientific journal or SHUT UP.  It is really clear that you don't know what you are talking about.  Hawk does not and has not ever recommended injections.  And everyone here knows Hawk and his story.  On the other hand, none of us know you very well other than the fact that you suddenly drop in from out of no where and pretend to have all the answers.  This site, unlike Dr Lin's site, exists to serve guys with Peyronie's.  Dr Lin's site is a hodge podge of soft porn and claims for treatments of every kind of sexual problem known to man.  You are overbearing and annoying.  Either be civil or go away.  - George

[Freddie]

George, I dont care if the guys a f-in plumber! The guy had problems when he over pumped with a vacum device- leaving him absolutly no choice but to spend every aching minute of his life to cure himself. Thats how he got into health and urology as much as he did.  Look, Im not here to get high blood pressure from you guys ok- if you dont get, than you dont get it, and thats fine. I try telling you the things that work for me- not telling you to buy his products, and your still acusing me of prmoting his products!  The products, vitamins, herbs, oils, arginine are needed George. What Im saying is, buy them else where than. As far as the cream, buy non commercial creams w the same ingrediants. Try peppermint cream w alcohol- the cream is all about bringing the heat to soften scar ok Freddie

[Freddie]

Look George- forget the pills he sells- look at the facts- your penis whether you like it or not is made up of tiny baloons that fill up during erection. No, I dont know Hawks story, but I do know his and yours attitudes, an closed minds.  I came here with obvious new info to you guys to help solve this problem.  You guys wanna kick me off the site, see if I give a crap. I dont need the high blood pressure , I have enough problems obviously.  

[George999]

Freddie,  It is not a matter of just the pills and the cream, its that you are making a lot of statements that are factually incorrect.  And you are totally unwilling to learn or accept correction when you are wrong.  As for Dr Lin, either you only know what he has chosen to tell you or you are, as Hawk has speculated, an insider.  Its one or the other.  But much of what you have posted is not based on facts.  The pills and cream and towels we can discuss and agree or disagree on, but the other stuff is over the top.  And if that issue raises your blood pressure then you probably need to find another site to express your opinions on this.  - George

[despise]

Ok just wanted to ask if taking vitamin d3 1000 everyday could possibly calcify my plaque. Im also taking mk 7 cause I heard it could stop the calcification of the plaque. I don't want to risk getting this worse. Also wanted to know what other vitamins or supplements should I go buy that are helpful for peyronies.

[Freddie]

George, Im not here marketing for him- ok than maybe this site is for marketing the drugs you guys believe in and the doctors you recomend?  Why dont you tell me what you recomend I take than? Id like to know. I have an open mind, and Ill listen respectfully Freddie

[George999]

Despise,  Don't listen to Freddie.  Peyronie's has absolutely zero to do with masturbation.  The penis, like any other part of the body normally heals when injured.  Plenty of people masturbate and do all sorts of other weird things and never ever develop Peyronie's.  There is not a shred of scientific evidence to show that masturbation results in Peyronie's.

As for vitamin D3, it will NOT calcify your plaque.  I have been taking 8,000 to 12,000IU a day for nearly six months now without any bad effect on the Peyronie's.  I do take vitamin K with it and recommend you keep on taking it.  Vitamin D has been shown in research studies to be effective against multiple forms of autoimmune disease.  For it to be optimally effective you need to take a large amount like 8,000 to 12,000 IU.  You also need to have your blood calcium monitored for the first couple of months to make sure it is not going up.  And you need to have your blood levels of vitamin D also checked every six months or so.  The blood calcium tests are very inexpensive.  The vitamin D tests are around $100 or you can get a do it yourself test kit over the Internet for $70 if you don't mind pricking your own finger to get the blood sample.  The vitamin D info is available at vitamindcouncil.org and grassrootshealth.org.  - George  

[Freddie]

George, I gotta hit the hay. But please be more open minded to the actionlove site. Anyone on here using a traction device or VED or stretching excercise is only making matters much worse.  All your doing is temporarily inflaming your entire penis. So for a while, your flacid penis is fat and puffy like a sausage in your crotch. But when it settles down, now your in worse shape than before. And your erect state is no bigger than your flacid state? curios isnt it? Dont worry George, I wont be on this site much longer- your too ignorant and closed minded to others ideas, yet for some strange reason, you have no definite cure? Freddie

[George999]

Freddie, Personally I recommend getting vitamin D blood levels up to 50-70ng/ml.  Vitamin D is a major regulator of both hormones and genes.  Up to 60% of the population has tested deficient in random testing.  This can cause just about every kind of disease.  People were made to get large amounts of vitamin D from the sun.  But because people are avoiding the sun and using sunscreen which blocks vitamin D, they are ending up deficient.  There is research showing that vitamin D is effective in treating autoimmune disorders.  Therefore I recommend it for Peyronies.

Secondly, I recommend Pentoxifylline.  Pentoxifylline has been shown to be effective in treating Peyronie's in research done by Dr Tom Lue at University of California San Francisco Medical Center.  Another recognized expert on Peyronie's, Dr Levine, also recommends Pentoxifylline.  Pentoxifylline works by blocking the cytokine TGF-beta1 which is the substance that causes Peyronie's inflammation and plaque.  Pentoxifylline is safe, easy to take, inexpensive and void of bad side effects.  A months supply costs maybe $10-$30 a month depending on where you buy it.

Additionally, I recommend some of the same things you suggested that are probably helping you.  Things like L-Arginine, fish oil, and hot towels are fine.  ALC is also helpful.  Also rational use of the VED.  As for a cure.  Don't be silly.  I don't have a cure and neither do you.  You have some things that have made it better.  So do I.  A lot of the stuff I have used in the past was useless.  I have tried to actively sort that out and dump it.

As for being open minded, on this site we challenge each other to come up with valid evidence or back off.  You are not being treated any differently than anyone else.  If you can't handle that then you are in the wrong place.  There are plenty of forums around that allow people to say all kinds of absurd things and go unchallenged.  That kind of circus is not encouraged around here.  Those of us that are here like it that way.  It saves us the time of having to read over countless useless nothings in order to find something useful.  So grow up and learn to engage in a meaningful dialog or find some place else to be the center attraction.  - George

[Freddie]

Georege Ill check those out thank you.

[Tim468]

Freddie,

Hawk created this site. I think he is pretty aware of what posts go where. Also, he is aware of how to read scientific literature. And, like me, and George and Old Man and on and on and on all of us have Peyronie's disease - that is why we are here.

Dr. Lin has a hodge podge of information, some of which is wrong, on his site. Frankly, I cannot spend time there because I do not have the time to waste on crap. It is a cluttered and rambling site, and it is interesting that your posts have the same quality. They are intense and wordy and without paragraphic returns (ever) and are - for me - hard to read.

I think that whenever someone bursts upon the scene and talks more than he listens, then he is going to get slammed a bit. When what he says is non-scientific, and not within the boundaries of rational thought, then it will get even less credence.

To me, it seems like it is time for you to take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. Spend a bit of time here listening instead of pedantically lecturing and you might learn something.

Tim

[LWillisjr]

Freddie,
I for one, have had success with traction. And clearly others here have had success with VED use.

[Freddie]

I just came here to tell you what is working for me.  If something is working for you, thats great.  But you will never convince me that stretching scar tissue can heal it. Lets just say from experience, okay, my own personal scientific reporting, that what anyone will get when they stretch scar, is an entire inflamed, soft penis, that although it may seem to be in better shape at the time, it is really in a bad state.  And it is usually numb to the usual peyronie's burning pains, because it is so inflamed. But when you take that traction device off, and let that penis sit for a week a two, oh boy!  I dont want to take all your money, but if you want to put up some money with your highly intelligent scientific researched information to my ignorant hodgepodge, than lets get it on!    You can not stretch scar back!! You need to soften and disolve it like any scar!! Believe it or not, Im trying to help!  It only seems better with the traction and VED at the time because when you seriously inflame all the penile tissue, it swells up and becomes bigger in flacid state than in erection state. And thats not good. Its only a temporary fix, with an even more punishing long term result. Freddie

[Hawk]

You are making most of us feel we are wasting our time trying to bring you up to speed on even the basics.  Maybe you should read all of or "Child Board" and all of our "Resource Library".  Most people that research know that traction can help.  They know that small studies have demonstrated benefit (there is an obvious absence of studies on the other website you mention).

It is also clear that burn patients are absolutely dependent on daily stretching of scar tissue to prevent contraction and disfigurement.  That is not opinion, it is not just evidence, it is established fact.

I want to be frank with you that many here including me do not value what we consider to be a garbage unload on the forum.  In fact I have had PMs almost insisting that I ban you or otherwise deal with your disruption.  That has almost never happened with with any of our thousands of members.  You survive only because of our very tolerant policy.  We have an uncensored forum but we expect some rational thought process and some courtesy on the forum.

As Tim and others have indicated, it is time to read and listen.  Neither are you the teacher, nor are we your students.  I think we understand your position and we unanimously reject most of your concepts as unsubstantiated, fanciful, nonsense.  Please don't clutter the forum by restating or trying to convince us of what you have already stated.  That would be spamming the forum.  We do not care what you believe.  If you have clinical studies, or sound medical theory backed by legitimate evidence feel free to share the studies and evidence.  Those things we care about.

[Freddie]

I will be on my way Hawk.  I stick by my guns because I have healed and Im still healing. I havent seen one sucess story here sadly.  You guys are looking way to deep into this.  The penile tissues are the most complex tissues on a mans body because they can expand 3-4 times from flacid to erect- only with the assistance of the newly found and accepted hormone Prostaglandin E-1. You should look that up. BUT, it should not be expanded manually with pumps, strchers, so on. You see Dr. Lin as a quack. He is pure genious, and thinks outside the box. One day you will learn this. Unfortunately, it will probably be too late. You say you have scientific backing- if you really spent more time on his site, he has MANY links from scientific journals to back his statements.  Please ask yourself tonight and sleep on it- Does it make more sense to use heat and light massaging with your fingers, and bring fresh blood to scar to heal it with your own body? Or is it better to keep stretching it and making it worse in the long run? Hopefully one day you will wake up to reality.  Like I said, Im here to help.  Although Im still not 100%, and who knows, maybe I never will be, I am not making up the fact that I have healed about 75% and am still healing.  Why do I continue to battle with you and try to help-is it because Im a secret agent making commissions for Dr. Lin-NO knucklehead! Its because about 3 years ago I had cleaned up my apartment to plan my you know what. Need I need explain that one to anyone here! I said thats it, Im giving this one more shot, and started taking 75mg dhea and all the other boosters and pills, despite the warnings-what the hell did I have to lose? Bingo! Finally got a real erection, finally was balooning just like Lin said, and finally felt like it was going somewhere.  I didnt believe in it either. But here I am trying hopelessly to convince you guys, because I know what a dark world it can be.  You dont need to kick me off, Ill show myself to the door Freddie

[Iceman]

hawk - just supposing freddie is right - what then?? - is he the messiah with the true  message for a cure for Peyronies Disease   - how can we be sure he is wrong?? - he does seem convincing..what if ved usage is bad - Im spending night after night using the ved and along comes this guy trashing all oldman says ( and I respect what oldman says) - what id stretching the scar is dangerous and will only lead to more trauma -  

[Hitman]

so you took a bunch of test boosters, a multi pack, some oils and DHEA and got better is that the summary of your improvement Freddie?

[Old Man]

Iceman:

Thanks for your kind support. However, don't despair, VED therapy is and has been proven to be a viable "treatment" for Peyronies Disease symptoms. Freddie is not the only one that has trashed me and VED therapy on forums before. As he says, he will stick by his guns, and I wish him luck.

If his therapy regimen works, he should come forward and present the facts. Just because there are no published trial results of VED therapy, does not mean that the theory behind it won't work. It has been stated many times on this forum that caution should be exercised at all times when one is using VED therapy. Overextending the penile tissue without a doubt can and will cause more trauma. But, using a moderate and easy vacuum will never do damage to ones penis. (NOTE: I am looking forward to the published trails report from the Birmingham, AL study. Hopefully, it will be released soon.)

So, again, each individual has to decide on the method of therapy they wish to use. There is no definitive therapy that has as of now been discovered. We are all in the learning curve of this horrible mess. Maybe, some day there will be a method found to successfully treat the disorder.

I wish Freddie continued luck in his endeavor to find total relief from Peyronies Disease. But, I for one, know that Peyronies Disease can strike many times in one life.

Old Man

[George999]

Iceman,  If stretching tissues caused destructive trauma, the hospitals wouldn't be pulling people out of the bed immediately after surgeries and making them walk.  They would instead be treating them with heat and massage.  And neither would people with strains and sprains be sent to physical therapy.  What Freddie says makes a whole lot of sense.  But there is only one problem.  Many things that make a whole lot of sense are simply not reality.  Thats how people fall for simplistic solutions.  And people like Freddie often see benefit where their is none.  It is the difference between subjective reality and objective reality.  It is the power of placebo.  Actually, much of what Freddie is advocating is useful.  It is just that the whole framework he presents it in is wrong and misleading.  Read his posts.  His own thoughts are an exercise in confusion.  And much of what he asserts is simply contrary to reams of heavily documented scientific evidence.  Remember, just because someone is convincing does not mean that they are communicating truth.  People can communicate false concepts with unbelievable passion.  Obviously Freddie is convinced, but that passion alone does not validate his theories.  That is why testimonials are the least reliable path to truth.  I don't use the VED or traction devices and never have and I have no connection to anyone who makes or markets them, but I can tell you that Freddie is simply wrong.

[Tim468]

Iceman,

It is not that Freddie is posting nonsense (well, OK, he is), but this is more of an even a blind pig finds an acorn sometimes, you know?

The fact is that - as we have discussed here before - that testosterone lack, and testosterone replacement - may play a role in some fibrotic processes that lead to Peyronie's Disease. If that was the case for Freddie, then what he took would be of help, and thankfully for him, it did.

The issue I have is his one size fits all way of thinking. It's stupid, plain and simple. Not all of us need testosterone replacement. Not all of us should avoid the VED - in fact most of us will benefit from it. It is obvious that Freddie has not bothered to read about the VED protocol discussed here, and since he apparently does not know that we are talking about lower pressures intent on improving blood flow and gently stretching the tissues, he does not know that our way is different than pumping until your penis is grossly swollen with edema, and probably damaged.

It is an overwhelmingly obvious inattention to detail, and a one size fits all approach that I find so objectionable about his posts. I doubt he has read (or if he has read them is able to accurately recount the content) of a single major thread here. He therefore says dopey stuff like this to Hawk: "...with the assistance of the newly found and accepted hormone Prostaglandin E-1. You should look that up." Well, if Freddie had looked it up, he might have found (as did I) 6 posts by Hawk with that term (Prostaglandin) in it. It's just insulting.

He states to Hawk: "...if you even have Peyronie's".

This is rude and stupid - to come to a place and insult the creator of the board you are posting on. It goes to the heart of how I decide whether or not someone is worth interacting with. If they post like a dope, then they are probably a dope.

Dr. Lin sells stuff. Period. His cluttered site is geared towards selling his crap to men through the internet, out of a site (how mystical and "Eastern"!) in Boca Raton, Florida. He is an engineer who is exploiting an general interest in Eastern medicine (and an obsession in gentitalia) to hawk his products online.

Do they work? I don't even know what he has in them. More than one product marketed like this turned out to just be Viagra, leading to better erections, but claiming to be herbal. Who knows? He has never subjected his work or his products to any scrutiny.

It is a steaming, smelly pile of, um, ideas.

Tim

[George999]

The fact is that - as we have discussed here before - that testosterone lack, and testosterone replacement - may play a role in some fibrotic processes that lead to Peyronie's Disease. ...  Not all of us need testosterone replacement.

And how do I know whether I am lacking in testosterone?  NOT BY LOOKING AT MY SEMEN!  ONLY a testosterone blood test will give may a reliable answer.  Then we can argue about what is an appropriate level and potential strategies to make it better.  But just looking at semen is ridiculous.  - George

[Tim468]

A drop off in the amount of semen suggests reduced prostatic function, and that is often secondary to decreased testicular production of testosterone. A finding of reduced production of semen, and smaller testes, should prompt an evaluation.

Tim

[Freddie]

Freddie again     Listen, I signed in because I didnt want to leave off on a bad note.  Im sorry if I was mean or brash, and I sincerely apolagize to everyone here I have battled with on these topics. And if I offended you, I really am sorry. I also didnt mean to criticize your methods of healing. I am just as affected by this ridiculous problem as you all are. And Hawk, sorry I thought that you didnt even have it. I only wish everyone here the best of luck with their progress to cure themselves of this.  I dont feel welcome because I really do 100% believe that Dr. Lins methods have helped me, and on this forum we would only clash more on theories. Mostly, maybe its what I followed Lins "not to do" that helped me the most. I believe the cure is an exact science.  But I have checked out what you guys are doing and I am picking up the Vit D (thank you George) and Ill check out that other stuff. Peace out and God Bless! Freddie

[LWillisjr]

Freddie,
Thanks. I appreciate your views and opinions. I try to keep an open mind and I'm pleased that Dr. Lin's methods work for you. I admit I even went to the site you suggested. I wasn't impressed. It was a bit of work to sift through all the multiple orgasm references. If I had found the site on my own, I would not have stayed long as the focus clearly is not on Peyronies and Peyronies treatment. The site made me feel that there must be something wrong with me and my partner if we are experencing multiple orgasms. Well, I'm quite happy with them one at a time.

I understand your views on VED and traction, but you are quick to make a point of bruising, pain, swelling, and inflammation it causes. I've used traction for months and didn't experience ANY swelling, bruising, or pain. So while I respect your views and that it works for you, it conflicts with my own personal (yet unscientific) research.