ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[rcrj]

I am wondering whether side effects with Pentox have been an issue with anyone, I have read about insomnia and becoming jittery.  I am susceptible to insomnia when taking foreign substances, even Potaba caused this when it was "prescribed" after my injury in 2003, but I didn't stick with it long.  Also, does it take a nationally-renowed specialist to get the Pentox Rx?  The local uro with the Potaba didn't seem to know much and gave me the brush-off at the time, and I've understood this to be a common occurrence with the local yocals, if not touting Potaba than Vitamin E and no interest in a follow-up appt., just sort of walk away from you after the exam.  I hate seeing doctors and don't know how up for the trial and error process of finding a knowledgable/co-operative one I am, or the insomnia.

[ComeBacKid]

RCRJ,

I've had absolutely no side effects other than some jitteryness in my legs and feet in the beginning when I first started taking the medication.  This lasted for a handfull of weeks and then went away.  I had no insomnia that I noticed or any other side effects, thats why I don't mind continuing on the pentox.  I haven't even had any upset stomachs yet, but always make sure to take my pentox after a meal or light snack.  I'd say go for it man, the scientific research that points to some efficacy outweights any side effect, and if you do get a side effect you don't like, you can quit it anyway.  The drug is cheap, and my doctor told me its very safe.  Make sure to get the generic brand.

ComeBackid

[George999]

rcrj, where do you live?  The Pentox guru these days is Dr. Lue at UCSF Medical Center in San Francisco.  I think if you look over the Urologists thread on this forum you will find links that will lead you to him and to his research data.  When you talk to your local doc you need to be prepared with some solid research data and probably a telephone number for Dr. Lue's office so he can get up to speed.  You shouldn't need a nationally known specialist, just a doc who is cooperative in these matters, but you are going to have to show him or her some convincing data in the form of abstracts.

- George

[rcrj]

I'm moving to Colorado next month, and may wait until I get there and see Dr. Brant, the associate of Dr. Lue.  This will give me a chance to test out L-arginine with the full spectrum Vitamin E I've been taking, plus I recently got a VED.  I'm not up for the battle with an ordinary local uro, I haven't had good experiences with doctors.  I'm just concerned with the Pentox that I'll have jitters or insomnia, I'm susceptible since caffeine gives me jitters and most drugs give me insomnia.

Robert

[meanmrmustard]

Clearly your chambers cannot block and unblock with your choice of drugs.  I you now observe no lasting changes in your curve, then it is not a structural change.  That only leaves the degree of erection from one drug vs another.

really i feel that is not a question of degree, the swelling that trazodone gave me was just way different to the swellings i have on the way to erections using ED-drugs.

[Hawk]

MMM,

All I can tell you is that if your chambers are filled with liquid, whether arterial blood or saline solution - whether the solution gets to your chambers by infusion through a needle or through arteries - whether the arteries are dilated by oral drugs, injectable ED drugs, whether it is pulled in through VED vacuum, or a naturally induced erection - the chambers are either filled or not filled.  You CANNOT fill one chamber regardless of the source of the erection.  The pressure equalizes in all chambers because they are actually only connected compartments of a single chamber.  The source of the fluid or the type of fluid has nothing to do with it, and is not a variable in degree of curve.  

Only the amount of fluid can exist as a variable.

[tdsc]

You have to be careful with pentox if you are doing weights or a lot of standing or walking.  With pentox your legs are always burning and its difficult to distinguish an inflamed knee versus just the medication side effects.  I almost got tendonitis in a knee because I assumed the burning was from the medication although I should have progressed slower with the weights.  But the point is that taking medication disturbs the natural feeling in your body that you are accustomed to, so you have to mentally think about things like exercise, whereas before, it just came naturally.

[Liam]

Supplements and meds are not supposed to make you feel bad or hurt.  If something is making you hurt, check it out.

In weight training (body building) you learn to "live for the burn".  I remember going to the beach after going to the gym and working the legs.  Sometimes I couldn't walk in the sand.  Those were the days .

[PJ]

Okay time for a quick progress report since I have been taking the Pentox combo for roughly three months. First of all I switched to a superior brand of Vitamin E and picked up the San Vasoflow, L Arginine brand. Just so its clear what exactly I have been taking.

The initial results are heartening.
I had three areas of plaque. The smallest one initially the size of a pea, has shrunk to the size of a pin head. The other two mauch larger plaques are unchanged at this time. Furthermore something I thought was scar tissue at the initial point of injury about the size of a couple of pin heads but flat. I now know to have been a small plaque and it has vanished entirely.

I am very pleased and will be continuing the course of treatment. I know that these results may be unusually good, but my anecdotal evidence is that the Pentox combo is helpful. If only this had been available three years ago when it all started, would it have prevented the terrible progression and shrinkage I wonder?

----PJ

[roadblock]

PJ,

  So you started this regimen 3 months ago, and you started after three years of Peyronies Disease? Do you have any ED along with your Peyronies Disease? If so, has this improved? When did your disease stabilize? From the time of stabilization, did you experience any positive changes?

[PJ]

ED is not a significant problem for me. Things aren't quite as rock solid as they were before the Peyronies, but I don't suffer from any real ED problems. I don't believe my disease ever stabilized. Since the appearance of the first plaque about an inch and a half from the tip of the penis, the plaques have steadily moved down the shaft towards the base leaving what I understand to be scar tissue in its wake. At the current moment the plaques are about an inch from the base of the penis having 'traveled' from the starting point of the injury. The space between that is deformed and shrunken with the typical hourglass complaint.
I have no reason to doubt that if left untreated the disease would have progressed the rest of the way.
There are no positive changes if by that we mean an improvement in deformity or a regain in lost size. Frankly I don't expect any such thing. I would extremely pleased if this treatment just stopped the progression of the plaques. There is about 2 1/2 to 3 inches left unshrunken and I really can't afford to lose any more length. Plus I worry that further progression might mean bending and twisting which I have so far (mostly) escaped. So my great hope is a cessation of progression not any improvement of damage done.

[roadblock]

I'm in the same boat...predominantly have a septal scar that reaches start to finish with a slight bend left at the base and then even further underneath another bend right that cancels the other. There is always slight pain for the past 1.5 years but I have to say it has improved somewhat, very slowly. Very minimal ED which is as far as I can tell psychological anticipating pain. I agree with you completely...if I knew it would just halt now and not progress I couldn't complain. But the uncertainty is distressing. I've been using Pentox, arginine and acetyl-l-carnitine as well as ginko with many variations inbetween. I also supplement Vitamin D. The Pentox has been for the past 7 months. Guess I'll just keep on keepin' on!  

[myrddin]

Just had my follow up with my Uro (Culley Carson, UNC Chapel Hill) today, after 4.5 months on Pentox (400mg 2x/day).  After checking my unit out thoroughly he seemed optimistic that the little ball or marble of plaque (the source of the original "dent" where it all began) is gone or at least thinned out, plus my pain is gone.  My curve also has not worsened for 1.5 months or so.  He said just to continue with what I've been doing and see him in a few more months.

I asked him about the dosage of 2 pills/day vs. 3/day, and he said it was to avoid the "flushing" side effect, which turns some people, in his words, "red as a beet."  Plus, he said, he's seen good results with many other of his patients with only 2 pills/day, so he sees no need for a greater dosage and risk of side effects.  Sounded good to me, so I didn't press the issue further.   But in retrospect... define "good"?

I didn't totally understand his optimism, I guess cuz I'm the one with the bent dick that hasn't shown any improvement yet.  But he was very positive about my progress, and he's the one that examined me, so he should know, right?

Anyway, I walked back to my car with a renewed prescription for Pentox.  

[ComeBacKid]

Myrddin,

If he seems to think you have improvement that is good, I would stick with pentox since it is pretty cheap.  I was thinking the other night about why I'm not seeing any positive results from pentox, it still is early for me at 8 weeks, however I wonder if the generic pentox is effective? My pentox has a purple color with MYLAN on one side and 357 on the other side (imprinted on the pill).  Does anyone else have pentox that appears this way?  Perhaps the generic pentox will not be effective?  What do you guys think?

ComeBackid

[Rico]

ComeBackid Myrddin said he hasn't shown any improvement. His doctor said that the plaque seem to be gone or better, but his curve ect. is the same....

Once ones plaque is gone, the damage is still done to the tunica and the lost of size or elasticity won't come back, other that maybe with a mechanical approach like traction or VED...

I have been on pentox for almost four months and have one more month or so of the bottle left, when this is gone I will stop taking the pentox..... I haven't notice any benefit from it myself, side effects have not been good for me either, headaches upset stomach, I can only do two a day and if taken far apart with plenty of food the side effects aren't very bad..... I haven't miss a dose in almost four months along with Vit E(full spectrum) and cilias and some arginine.....

I will do ginkgo after this with arginine and some opc..... my peyronies is now 10 months old, so I wanted to do the pentox for four to five months in the early stages... my plaque hasn't change really either....  I just can't see staying on this for a year or more, not for me.... Danny Ocean's doctor who works with Lue had him get off it after six months, said it was going to do what it could do in that time.... and once again, it can't repair a damaged tunica....I wonder if aa4500 can either?

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

Rico,

How do we know that one can not recover size or elasticity once the plaque is gone from a treatment?  If you eliminate the plaque your tissue will have to be more flexible than before, I don't buy this argument that the damage is irreversible.  Our cells in our body are constantly replacing themselves and its very possible to eliminate hte plaque and have cells that are more flexible again.  

As for the pentox, 4 months is not long enough to see any improvement, I think it has been repeated many times that one should give the protocol at LEAST 6 months, if not a year, in order to see any improvement.

ComeBackid

[Rico]

ComeBackid,

I do believe if one removes the plaque they can reduce the bend, but won't gain lost size back, this is what I have read.... I have read that some have gain some size back from injections and ved or traction.... I know when I have inflammation a area can become stiffer, so maybe if pentox helps with inflammation it will help somewhat with like I said the bend also, but will it replace your tunica with new cells that resemble the normal ones, wishful thinking at best I would think..... if someone feels that they should stay on pentox for more than six months, so be it.... it probally can't hurt them, I just don't see the point of it for me, and like I said, I don't like the side effects.... I also would like to see one report where the pentox has done anything to help regain size or hour glass(hinging).... reduce some plaque and slight bending from decreasing inflammation is good, and maybe for some it made a difference..... once again, no one on this board has posted his deformity has improved....I know my hasn't....

[PJ]

Realistically. Lost size regained? I do not have any such expectation. (Excepting what has been posted here about VED and so forth) But if the plaques reduce? I have seen evidence in my own case that this is possible. If there is a reduction in plaque that makes me hope for a cessation of progression. At my youthful age of 41, a lack of progression seems like a great hope. I have seen on this site that Peyronies tends to come in a series of progressive periods, my theory is that even if Pentox is not doing much else a reduction in some plaque size means that further progression is unlikely.
That to me is a great hope. It means that I have less fear of becoming non-functional. Its worth the occassionally upset stomach. Even if I am on Pentox for the next 20 years. Its listed side effects are pretty minimal long-term.
---PJ

[scott]

I'm sort of perplexed about some of the things I'm reading in posts about pentox.  I think a lot of this has been covered earlier, so if I repeat, please forgive me.

Myrddin's urologist prescribed 2 (as opposed to 3) 400mg tablets per day to avoid flushing, yet I cannot find flushing as a side effect of pentox.  Flushing did appear in a clinical study comparing the commercially available tablet (what we all take) versus a capsule which is not commercially available; the flushing side effect appeared in 2.3 percent of patients taking the capsule, which again, is not even commercially available.

http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/pentox_ad.htm

Rico's headaches and upset stomach are listed as side effects.  I have had no side effects whatsoever, beyond a burning in my stomach on two occasions when I did not take pentox with food (which is clearly labelled as what you're supposed to do.)

ComeBackid, there is no evidence that generic pentox is any different from Trental.  The tablet I take is exactly the same as the one you describe.  There was an earlier post covering Trental vs. generic, but I'm too lazy to go look for it.

Also, it could take years to know whether pentox is helpful for Peyronie's.  I think Tim had said two years in an earlier post.  It seems to me that actual side effects from pentox would be a good reason to discontinue the medication; otherwise, I plan to stay the course for the duration.

[soxfan]

ComeBackid,

I do believe if one removes the plaque they can reduce the bend, but won't gain lost size back, this is what I have read.... I have read that some have gain some size back from injections and ved or traction.... I know when I have inflammation a area can become stiffer, so maybe if pentox helps with inflammation it will help somewhat with like I said the bend also, but will it replace your tunica with new cells that resemble the normal ones, wishful thinking at best I would think..... if someone feels that they should stay on pentox for more than six months, so be it.... it probally can't hurt them, I just don't see the point of it for me, and like I said, I don't like the side effects.... I also would like to see one report where the pentox has done anything to help regain size or hour glass(hinging).... reduce some plaque and slight bending from decreasing inflammation is good, and maybe for some it made a difference..... once again, no one on this board has posted his deformity has improved....I know my hasn't....

Rico,

I agree with ComeBackid, you can regain lost size. I have been using the ved, thacker formula and pav cocktail(few months) and I have regained almost all of my length, but I still am waiting to regain my lost width.

I feel that some kind of external stetching is necessary and benficial and the things that I am using work well in combination. Do not give up!!

Cheers.

[Rico]

I do believe that dmso will soften plaque and ved can remold it.... I don't think the pentox had anything to do with it..... maybe the pav cocktail has help with inflammation? I was using the thacker before and ved and was getting some results.... I went on the pav cocktail and got side effects and also some red spots on my unit so I stop the ved and continue with the pav cocktail.... I have one month supply left with the pentox and then will go back to ved and some thacker also with ginkgo... like I said, I had my best results when I was using that combo.... I'm not saying that pentox is bad, I just don't think it does that much, I also think we are all in a different boat also somewhat, hour glass vs bend ect.... I wish I would of taken pentox the first week I notice my peyronies also, but waited six months, it is like Tim says, after the barn door is open.... if you go to Levine he is going to suggest shots(verapamil) and traction or VED.... I believe that dmso works along this way Soxfan, softening the plaque to be molded by the VED and this is how you got your size back.... now having good blow flow during this isn't a bad thing and if you don't get too thin of blood and the VED is working with it and you don't have side effects, then more power to you... for some reason pentox and me haven't been a good match and in one month I will be glad to be off of it and back to a better diet:)... I can only eat very bland foods on this...

Rico

[myrddin]

... for some reason pentox and me haven't been a good match and in one month I will be glad to be off of it and back to a better diet:)... I can only eat very bland foods on this...

Rico

Rico, sorry to hear you're giving up on Pentox after only 4 months.  I've been discouraged with lack of progress with Pentox too, but kept reminding myself that most of the medical studies on its effectiveness (with Peyronies, as well as other fibrotic conditions) showed progress somewhere between 6 months to 2 years.  I'd hate to give up on it just before it really started showing progress, just for the sake of being able to eat spicy buffalo wings again!

Like you, I thought pentox wasn't working at all (no visible improvment) until a couple days ago when my Uro "felt me up" and remarked positively on the reduction of plaque.  You never know what's really going on inside even when nothing visible is happening

Anyway I don't want to seem like I'm selling you on Pentox.  I just would hate for you to give up so soon on what may -- in the long term -- produce the best improvement for you.

My suggestion is at the very least, get your suspicions confirmed by your Uro.  If he agrees its been a long enough time to see progress and says, "yeah, it looks like pentox has no positive effect on you."  Then at least you have a more objective, professional opinion to support your conclusions.  (and to blame if things get worse, heh)

[myrddin]

Once ones plaque is gone, the damage is still done to the tunica and the lost of size or elasticity won't come back, other that maybe with a mechanical approach like traction or VED...

I question whether this statement is true but I have no evidence either way.  Does accumulation of plaque damage the tunica?  In what I picture in my head, once the plaque is gone, the tunica should be free to expand normally again (like removing the piece of tape from the balloon).

Isn't this what happens during a Peyronie's surgery?  The doc removes the plaque, allowing the penis to straighten.  I'm not sure they do anything to stretch out or repair damaged tunica.  But my understanding here is very simplistic -- and I don't have the stomach to watch those videos of Peyronie's surgery.  Must be the pentox  

Can someone more familiar with surgery or plaque removal comment on this?  I post this in "Oral treatments" because it's really a fundamental question regarding effectiveness of Oral medications.  Can the most perfect medicine in the world result in penis straightening, if the theory of Tunica Damage is true?

[Tim468]

Several thoughts...

First off, it is important to think of the placque as transformed tissue, instead of thinking of it as a scab or piece of tape on a balloon. So the placque is not something that can be scraped off and reveal normal tissue underneath. Rather, the Tunica albuginea (TA) is transformed from a fascinating layered sheath into a matted piece of scar tissue. Thus, in some surgeries, the the placque is removed and the vacancy is filled with a graft. So far the best grafts have come from the saphenous vein and using the porcine gut tissue that can be sued for so many grafting purposes. The so-so results of grafting surgeries comes from several problems. First, the grafts can scar down, resulting in another dent or bend (IOW, the problem may be different in a microscopic way, but what your dick does looks the same). Second, the graft does not function like normal TA, and thus erections may suffer in quality.

My reading of the literature suggests that a surgery that removes such scar and replaces it with a graft (of any sort) is likely to be better in outcome is the recovery includes use of the VED and anti-niflammatory drugs of supplements (to reduce scarring). The best hope lies in the use of the tissue that places a scaffolding down that can then allow the TA to sort of "regenerate" into normal TA over the graft (this is the exciting work of Anthony Ayala (sp?)).

If the scar/placque is small enough to allow a small graft, it is less likely to result in a bad outcome, but then again, such a lesion is also ideal for the Nesbit, because the tuck used to treat such a smaller lesion is less likely lead to much shortening. So those of us with dents, hourglass deformities or more severe lesions don't really have great surgical options - yet.

As for remodeling, it is important to remember that anything can theoretically return to normal, but in reality is is hard. Calcifications can resorb and disappear and so on. Rico is NOT correct is assuming that the TA can never recover it's elasticity - but we are really dealing with new areas of medicine and science now.

Rather than saying it is impossible, I think more in terms of reducing progression and maximizing chances of healing. We know that "permanent" problems can return to a more normal anatomy, but to do so, we need to change the conditions that led to the problem in the first place. Since we still do not fundamentally understand WHY any of us do this, to come up with a prevention or healing strategy is speculative at best.

I think that Rico and ComeBackid are considering bailing out too fast on Pentox out of frustration with slow progress. BUt if it were me, I would also consider options like surgery if such options were more likely to lead to the outcome I want (a straight functioning penis). My main problem with any surgery is that I am not "stable", so it is likely that a newly straightened penis would, for me, develop new lesions. So I am focusing on strategies that stop any more progression. If I can do that well enough, and even reverse things - I will be OK with where I am. If the erectile function goes, then I will consider an implant. But if I do that, I will consider going to the some whacked out foriegn surgeon willing to put in an oversized implant and make me ready for porn films! I figurethat if I then shrink a bit, I will return to more normal proportions, and I'll still be ahead of the game  

Tim

[Rico]

Tim you say you are not stable, pentox is suppose to be for people who are not stable, why don't you use pentox?

I don't feel I'm bailing out on pentox after four months plus on it..... I just don't feel that staying on it for years is going to change my hour glass.... I was just hoping to stop the inflammation in the first year of peyronies, which I'm coming up to.....

I agree with Hawk, just because the plaque is reduced this means nothing and over time this is the course anyway in most cases but the damaged done to the tunica is the same,which is the real problem.... does pentox change the tunica back to normal? Tim your the first person that has said this is possible.. I thought the only change can be in remolding with a ved or traction at this point... I would like to see a report that the tunica can go back to normal from supplements or pentox....

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico,

I am not sure we know for sure that Pentox works.  If it does, it does not remold the tunica.  It sets up conditions in which remolding can occur by stopping the replacement of our natural tunica cells with fibroid cells.  In over simplified terms, we all get a new dick every several years.  Cells do not live forever.  If the process is stopped, as cell replacement takes its natural course the problem tunica cells die and are replaced by real tunica cells.  That is the ONLY WAY I know of that an oral drug could straighten a bent penis and that is a long-term process.  A drug cannot transform one kind of cell into another.  It can only stop the process and the body has to do the transforming as I understand the process.

One could say that if your Peyronies Disease was cured today, (meaning the Peyronies Disease process was stopped dead in its tracks and normal cell replacement resumed), it would take many many months for you to experience recovery.

[Rico]

Hawk I have a scar on my hand, been there for twenty years, it hasn't changed.... I don't believe scar tissue is replaced with normal tissue..this is the problem with scar tissue, it is forever.... I don't think my unit is like a snakes skin and is replaced, I think one can stop the scar tissue or inflammation, which usually takes place in most scars within 12 to 24 months and if peyronies is caught early, things like pentox or the pav formula might help in slowing it down.....


Are you saying peyronies scar tissue is different than saying a scar like when you get a cut? That once this scar tissue of peyronies stops it course it is replace with natural cells... never heard this or read this, every doctor I have read other than ones who use traction or VED say that the size or bend will never go back to normal...

I know some people(which is a small number) heal normal, maybe these are the ones you are talking about.... has anyone here ever had a scar disappear over time?

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico,

I am saying you are simple incorrect in your understanding of cell death and replacement.  Your skin (or scar) cells do not live for 80 years, nor do any other cells.  You do not have one cell in your entire skeleton that was there 20 years ago.  Normally cells are replaced by like kind unless something alters the process.  Cancer can change the dna of a cell. Those new cancer cells will live much longer than normal and over-run normal cells that perform vital functions for our body to live.

Conditions (not fully understood) can cause normal tunica cells to be replaced by fibroid collagen that does not have elastic characteristics.  The challenge is to stop that process and allow the normal cell replacement that goes on to rebuild normal tunica.  As we all know, this is much more difficult than typing a few lines in a post.

Concerning the scar tissue in your hand, those cells are being replaced and close observation will show that most scars very slowly fade in time.  If not, it is because the old scar cells are replaced with new ones.  The scar cells do not live as long as you do.

The penis you have now, if not used for a few years is a brand new virgin penis.  Now there is a line to entice the next lady friend to be the very first.  

[George999]

I would suggest that the huge overall risk to those of us with Peyronies is the seductive impulse to oversimplify the problem at hand.  Thankfully, we now live in a time like no other in history when the secrets of the human body of becoming known like no time before in human history.  In the case of Peyronies, we now know that SOMETHING caused the process to begin in the first place.  Every part of the human anatomy, including the penis, is subject to trauma at one time or another and usually, if not in every case, repeatedly.  The normal process is that those wounds heal and we end up just like new again.  So why doesn't Peyronies heal?  I would suggest that if we can know why the process started in the first place, we will be well on our way to knowing why it is not healing now.  In other words there is something subtle going on with our physiology that caused it to happen and that something subtle is STILL going on and causing it to persist.  Until we come to that point, we will make little progress in our struggle to achieve healing.

One thing that is being revealed by recent research is the tremendous effect the over huge number of microbes that inhabit our body have on our health.  A very subtle toxic mix of bacteria in your intestinal tract can cause you to be malnourished.  A slightly different culture down there can cause you to be totally obese no matter how hard or in what manner you try to diet and exercise.  Which leads me to suggest that a subtlety toxic bacterial culture in the gastro tract could be contributing to a subtle change in blood chemistry that makes one prone to scarring and resistant to healing.  That said, I would further suggest that it will take a combined symphony of diet, exercise, supplements, drugs, etc. PLUS a lot of trial and error and patience to achieve results.  Specifically, discovering what foods are feeding the offending bacteria and slotting out those foods is the potential challenge to making significant progress aided by everything else from supplements to VEDs.

My one big point here is that this problem is much greater than we imagine BUT the body is indeed capable of achieving remolding, in fact it does it all the time.  It is only a matter of discovering the keyhole, and we are closer to that than ever before and I don't intend to give up.  In any case the answers will come through legitimate research, not through our random speculations, and we need to stay closely tuned to that ongoing research.  So far I have gotten victory over a number of things my doctor had given up on, and I am now seeing my BP go down nicely and naturally.  I don't see Peyronies any differently.  With persistence and determination it can be beaten.

My apologies to Hawk for this off topic rant.  Feel free to move it to a more appropriate place once its had a few days of exposure.

[ComeBacKid]

Rico,

I do feel like your bailing out, four months is not adquate time to see if pentox will work.  However, if you have side effects you can't stand then I'd get off the medication, but don't necessarily conclude it does not work.  Hawk is right, it takes time for the cells to replace the old ones, its a very slow process.  It reminds me of one of my favorite WWII films- Force 10 from Navarone.  In the end they blow the dam but nothing happens, its supposed to cave in.  Slowlyl but surely it caves in, if pentox is to work I think of it like that, its a process and will take time on pentox, even up to a year or longer.

ComeBackid

[Hawk]

An important point.  If Pentox is taken only with the concept of simply preventing progression, one only has to read the forum to get the message loud and clear that progression is not a 12 - 18 month issue.  Tim, Barry, Larry, and literally scores more testify to that.

[Rico]

Hawk,

It is hard to say about peyronies and progression, most doctors say that in 12 to 18 months the plaque becomes stable, like most scar tissue, and most scar tissue might even shrink a little after this initial inflammation phase... now maybe if someone shuts down the inflammation then the out put of scar tissue will be more limited. I know Danny Ocean's doctor who works with Lue said that after six months on pentox, the pentox has done as much as it was going to do... right or wrong, it is something to ponder.... the jury is still out...I just don't get excited about plaque getting smaller....it is the deformity that bothers me and I find it hard to believe at this time that staying on pentox for years is going to cure this..... for those who stay on it for years, I hope I'm wrong...

[Hawk]

Hawk,

It is hard to say about peyronies and progression, most doctors say that in 12 to 18 months the plaque becomes stable,

Rico,  most doctors have not one clue about Peyronies Disease so it does not matter what they say.  Ask Tim how long it has taken his Peyronies Disease to become stable.  Ask Barry or Larry (15 years and still active).  Ask 100 other men on here.  I am not saying someone cannot become stable in twelve months and never be active again but there is just about as much chance that they will be active for 12 years.

[ComeBacKid]

Rico,

Define stable?  My peyronies has been slowly worsening over the past 8 years now.  These doctors don't know, even Dr. Mulhall had no answers for me.  We the sufferers know best.  Just about all the people on here that I've talked to have stated to me they continue to lose size and have an increase in the curve.  To me this means peyronies never really stabilizies permanently, although it could, it seems like in most cases it does not.  Now it may stabilize for a period of time and then get worse, but this is not stabilization to me, stable to me means it gets so bad, and then will not get any worse.  

[Rico]

Hawk and ComeBackid,

I'm not sure how long it takes to become stable, I do believe we are all different and some peoples immune system is more out of whack than others...

I know on the other forums and on here I have read where after a year or two the peyonies pain and discomfort went away and the curve hadn't change one way or another...

Each of us cope with stress and illness different also... and sometimes life gets in the way and it can play a toll on ones over all health and effect healing to conditions they have.

We got on this topic because we are talking about how long one should stay on pentox... some mention that four months is not long enough to be on it... I have to keep coming back to Danny Ocean doctor who works with Lue who said after he was on it for six months that it has done all it can do. I took my pentox last night and this morning.... I wake up with good erections, blood flow is there... my urologist only prescribe four months worth... I will talk to him or go in again since it will be four months and see what he thinks, I talked him into giving me it... I also am looking more into pentox and trying to get a better feel for it for long term use... when I first started the pav cocktail I got such strong erections they woke me up at night and the head of my unit was huge... I have had some redness on the head, looks like a light rash and some slight discomfort near the head also during erections, but this part of my unit looks normal... I think it is from the strong erections from the cilias, I don't get them as strong, and they don't  wake me up.... this also kept  me from using the VED.... so I'm trying to weigh out stopping the cialis and pentox and doing ginkgo and ved instead... still would get blood flow and I can work on the remolding..... I wish I could do them all together, but that doesn't seem to work for me....

Rico

[meanmrmustard]

i've been on pentox for 7 days, 2 pills daily, apart from pentox i'm taking vitE 400 also twice a day, plus cialis when i'm with my girl, which is about twice a week. i can not say it 100% sure if its the pentox, but in combination with the cialis i have yesterday had the fullest erection in months. plus, i'm experiencing a weird but good feeling tickling in the bump between my testicles and my anus in the past days. i have to add thatED is not a result of Peyronies Disease, but ED is the result of an accident and trauma, Peyronies Disease came addionally after a few years.

ok so this post doesn't contain a lot of useful information, but i will keep you updated

[ComeBacKid]

Meanmrmustard

You post is important, we all need to report the details of what we notice on these treatment protocols, thanks for your post!  I like you noticed really super full erections after starting pentox, that made my penis bigger in size, cause it filled up so well.  Interesting you report that as well.  Do you also notice an increase in flaccid size as well?

ComeBackid

[Rico]

I think you are getting the fuller erections from the cialis... pentox take several weeks to work in ones system....plus the cialis will stay in your system for several days, this is why they call it the weekend drug.... I found that when I first did cialis also that I got increase erections, or just harder in the beginning....

[myrddin]

The most immediate effect of Pentox for me too was super full erections like meanmrmustard and ComeBackid described.  I noticed the effect soon after taking it.  My wife noticed too.  Definitely a pentox thing, since I was never on cialis or viagra.

Enjoy it.

[ComeBacKid]

I noticed the super full erections the day after starting it, I also was on nothing else.  My flaccid penis was also super full and hung bigger as well, it was def the pentox thing.  I think it was the blood thinning effect of the pentox, not sure though.

ComeBackid

[Hawk]

I don't doubt your observations or that it was likely the pentox, but I don't see how it could possibly affect your blood chemistry that fast.

[roadblock]

For those of you receiving Viagra or Cialis specifically as part of the pentox, l-arginine and viagra regimen, how much viagra or cialis do you take a day? Do you take it once or twice a day? Has anyone experienced any side effects while on the daily dose?

[Tim468]

I don't have an answer for your specific question since I am not yet on the protocol. But i have some thoughts about it based on my reading.

In measuring erectile function (for which there is a great deal more data than in Peyronies), the axiom is to use the lowest dose that works. Therefore, if you get a good erection with 25 mg of Viagra, then use that dose; if not the go up until you do. Moreover, when making choices about which drug to use, then go to drug B is drug A either does not work or causes unacceptable side effects for you.

Based on that paradigm, I find that low doses of Viagra work, and higher doses work better, but at a costs of headaches later. I prefer Cialis because it seems to work for a much longer peroid of time well enough, but without the side effects. I have no experience with Levitra.

For this program, things are a bit different. Here we do not have an obvious dose-response issue we can get ahold of as we can with erections (ahem). So how do I know what dose if "enough" if the result is to be realized down the road?

I would go in this model to a highest dose tolerated that does not cause side effects. While I would like perfect erections, "good enough" is OK, and I can then say that 10 mg of cialis will do that (and be cheaper). But if I can tolerate 20 mg of cialis quite well, why not go with the higher dose?

If I had to use viagra, I would go to 50 mg a day, and maybe divide it up (25 mg twice daly). With Cialis, I would go with 20 every other day. I would lower the dose or change meds if the side effects were intolerable. If I could handle 100 mg a day of viagra, I'd use that.

Tim

[Rico]

I have always read that one shouldn't take viagra more than once a day... even if you are breaking up the dose.... it says this in the instructions also on on web sites..... the protocol for the PAV cocktail is 400mg of pentox three times a day with food, one should start with twice a day, and if you can handle the dose go to three, 25mg of viagra a day or cilias 10mg every other day for the first month and then go to every three days.... arginine 1,000mg two to three times a day....

[soxfan]

Rico,

I satred with the pentox at 400mg 3x per day but I got terrible headache. now I take it 2x per day and I am good. I also replace viagra with cialis and I tak 25mg every other day, with 2000mg of l-arginine.

Cheers.

[Rico]

Soxfan,

That seems like a good combination your taking, pretty much what I do, pentox 400 twice a day and cilias now twice a week at 10mg and about 2000mg of arginine... I was taking vit e but have stop for awhile and I didn't take the arginine for two months to give my body a rest on it, just started again on it, I haven't missed the pentox for almost four months now and cilias....

Rico

[Rico]

Soxfan I reread your post, they don't make cilias in 25mg and that would seem too much anyway, did you mean the opposite, which would make more sense, did you replace cilias with viagra?

[soxfan]

Soxfan I reread your post, they don't make cilias in 25mg and that would seem too much anyway, did you mean the opposite, which would make more sense, did you replace cilias with viagra?

Rico,

Sorry for the confusion, I now take cialis instead of viagra. I buy my cialis in capsule form from an undergorund source. I get 50 capsules at 25mg each for $45, so it's cheap and every other day is working well.

cheers.

[Hawk]

Soxfan,

For starters you must mean they are 25mg Tadalafil not Cialis since Lilly does not make capsules or 25 mg Cialis in any other form.  Cialis is a brand name.

What prevents a company from calling them 25mg and putting in 10mg along with yohimbe and or other substances, especially since they sell them at 93% less than the real product?  

What if they are contaminated with other harmful substances?  

Does it concern you that if they are actually putting what they claim in this pill that it represents an unsafe, unapproved, dosing level?

What would your recourse be if they were fraudulent or harmful?

Is this just total trust of a black market drug supplier to look after your health or have you had these pills checked by a competent lab?

[Tim468]

Rico, Viagra is routinely given in divided doses for pulmonary hypertension.

Cialis does not come in capsule form or in 25 mg doses, so I would be pretty suspicious of that.

Tim