Supplements - how many is too many?

[DaneS89]

Guys, does this supplement and meds regime sound excessive to you or actually reasonable? As the subject line queries, how many is too many? This is the full list of supplements, herbs, vitamins and meds I take...

Daily:

Cialis - 5mg
Trental - 400mg x 3

L-Citrulline - 1g
L-Arginine - 1g
L-Carnitine - 1.5g

Propolis - 500mg
Pygnogenol - 100mg

Coq10 - 100mg
Omega 3 - 2000mg?

Vitamin E - 200 IU
Vitamin C - 1000mg

Sometimes/experimental/recent additions:

Magnesium - 100mg
Multivitamin
Mens libido complex (contains Tribulus, Epimedium, Gingko etc)

Zinc - 15mg
Benfotiamine - 150mg

Other:

Low dose aspirin after I've had sex or masturbated.

I take meds for anxiety and depression also which adds a few more pills to the stack...

So that's the list. I know its a lot. It feels like a lot. I'm taking pills every couple of hours it seems. It's constant and I'm getting tired of it. I want to slim this list down to the bare essentials, but I am loath to take out anything out for fear that I am "missing out" on something important.

I'm a bit embarrassed by it to be honest, but I'm sure at least some of you can understand the sort of desperate thinking that compels us to do and take almost anything in the hope that something in the mix might just work.

I'd be keen to hear your thoughts about this. How many do you take (if that's not a rude question)? Opinions from other supplement enthusiasts (?) on how to tweak and refine the list and optimal dosages would be especially appreciated. Cheers.




 

[Sonic]

Does the anxiety meds give any erection problems? I assume you watch Neo's videos due to the supplement list?

This is just a personal opinion. Remove the L-Arginine. You do not need this if you take L-Citruline. L-citruline is the superior choice always. It converts more NO than L-Arginine. Also remove the L-Carnitine, if you take this for Peyronies it's useless. Raise your L-Citruline dosage to at least 3g per day. If you get good erections with just trental and L-Citruline perhaps it would be wise to remove the cialis as well. But if you feel you need the Cialis keep taking it. I do not know too much about benfotiamine to give an opinion but other than what I mentioned your list is good.

Pycnogenol, Citruline and Trental should give you very good blood flow. coq10 is a very good supplement, Propolis is also good for the immune system, I think it's a good list of supplements but it's all down to you and how you feel. Personally I could never take that much.

[DaneS89]

Hey man. Thanks for your feedback. Good call on the L-arginine. I'll probably quit that once my current supply runs out, which will be soon.  L-carnitine is a more recent addition that I'm still trialling. Using it in an attempt to relieve symptoms of neuropathy more so than to treat peyronies itself, as neuropathy and numbness are more bothersome to me than just about any other aspect of this condition. Thats why benfotiamine is in the mix too, for that purpose. And I have actually noticed a positive difference with increased sensation. The thing is, I started both of them at the same time so I don't know which one is working to have that effect...or if it's just placebo...or something else. But yeah, out of all the supplements I take L-car is the most unpleasant - it stinks and goes gross and clumpy in the bottle, so it will probably go too.

Vitamin E is another one I'm eyeing off for revision. Bit concerned about prostate cancer risk with that one as I have a family history of that illness. And I'm not sure it would be doing anything useful - even if it could - at the low dose I'm taking it in. The multi seems like an optional extra too.

Yes I do watch Neoman's videos. Pygnogenol and Benfotiamine are part of my regime based on his recommendations. The rest of them I was already taking before I found his channel. I agree with you, Propolis, Pygnogenol and Coq10 are all great - holy grail status for me.

Curious as to why you think Cialis is dispensable before Trental. In my mind, it's the other way around. Not challenging you, I'm genuinely interested what your rationale is behind that if you care to share

Re. anxiety and depression meds...it's a complicated sort of dance I have to do with those. I need them to help manage my anxiety and depression symtoms, which if left unchecked would ruin my sex drive and as result EQ would suffer. There was a time last year when I went off my meds entirely and it was disastrous, both for mental and sexual health. I have been super careful to only choose meds that are known to have a very low chance of causing sexual/erectile dysfunction. And so while each of them could *theoretically* through one mode of action or another hinder erectile function, in other ways and through other mechanisms they help it. And they all work to reduce anxiety and depression symptoms, so overall its a net benefit.

[Sonic]

Curious as to why you think Cialis is dispensable before Trental. In my mind, it's the other way around. Not challenging you, I'm genuinely interested what your rationale is behind that if you care to share

Yeah, Vitamin - E is absolutely useless, Just when I got diagnosed I took it for 6 months straight, does absolutely nothing. As for Cialis my suggestion was only to remove it if you have solid EQ. Pycnogenol, Trental and L-citruline should provide a massive blood flow boost some patients are different than others where their erections are not impacted as much as someone else. If you feel you still need the cialis to have good EQ then definitely stick with it.

[DaneS89]

Ah I see, thanks for clarifying. Yeah they seem to work in different ways to enhance blood flow for me. Trental has a slow but steady trickle effect, whereas Cialis is more like a surge. My EQ is pretty good albiet somewhat unpredictable. Some days - or weeks even - are great with frequent strong erections. At other times, its like...asleep, and can't be roused. Can't or doesn't want to be. Has a lot to do with mood and how I sleep, but also ejaculation frequency. I'm coming to realise that less is probably best...

[curvedcarnivore]

Is Pygnogenol and Pine Bark Extract the exact same thing?

[Pfract]

Danes89:

The list of supplements is big indeed. According to the latest recommendations from the guidelines, here is what Dr. Landon Trost has to say about those treatments on his website: https://malefertilityandpeyroniesclinic.com/peyronies/treatments/

The reality is a lot of those pills don't do anything to help with peyronies and are old advice that you find around. You can continue taking them as they improve your erections if you don't have access to a prescription for Viagra or Cialis, but just be aware of that.
You can also have a look at the more complete list of the current guidelines from the website of the American Urological Association itself.

https://www.auanet.org/guidelines-and-quality/guidelines/peyronies-disease-guideline

 

[DaneS89]

Hi Pfract,

Something in the mix is definitely working so I will continue I am not particularly deterred by a lack of concrete scientific evidence. There is not the same financial incentive (or industry demands) to study and promote natural supplements. The science isn't exactly rock solid or settled even when it comes to the mainstream approved treatments that are commonly prescribed for Peyronies. Nor is there complete consensus among experts in the field itself about what does and doesn't work. None of it has been studied exhaustively, really.

For each of the supplements on that list, there is at least some research and rationale behind their use. For many, if not all of them, the mode-of-action by which they could *possibly* help with peyronies is fairly well understood. In most cases that's antioxidant and/or anti-inflammatory activity, circulatory support etc. We know this to be helpful, if not just to arrest peyronies, but to promote overall good health and assist the body in other ways. I'm still in the stage where conservative/oral treatments could make a difference and turn things around for the better. So if it's not hurting me, and is possibly even helping me, then I have no reason to change tack.

[DaneS89]

Curvedcarnivore - yes, Pygnogenol is Pine Bark (Pinus Pinaster), but not all Pine Bark is Pygnogenol. Pygnogenol is a patent/trademarked name that indicates the product is always sourced from Pinus Pinaster. There are other, cheaper Pine Bark products on the market but they can come from other species of Pine.  

[curvedcarnivore]

Thank you for this. Does it matter which I get?

[DaneS89]

Hey curvedcarnivore,

Most of the scientific interest and research papers are focussed on Pinus Pinaster extract specifically. It's also known as French Maritime Pine Bark Extract. iHerb has a good range and super fast shipping (less than one week) to Australia (I saw on your profile that you're a fellow Aussie).

Random question back to you...assuming you on a carnivore diet as your profile name suggests, where do plant extracts fit in with that?  

[curvedcarnivore]

Hey curvedcarnivore,

Most of the scientific interest and research papers are focussed on Pinus Pinaster extract specifically. It's also known as French Maritime Pine Bark Extract. iHerb has a good range and super fast shipping (less than one week) to Australia (I saw on your profile that you're a fellow Aussie).

Random question back to you...assuming you on a carnivore diet as your profile name suggests, where do plant extracts fit in with that?  

Thanks, so I need the Pygnogenol version?

I'll take a look at iHerb. As running low on cash trying to treat this horrible disease.

Also, I had to stop carnivore. Four months of diarrhoea was not for me.  

[DaneS89]

Yeah mate, Pygnogenol is the one you want to go for    

[nemo]

I don't mean to be a jackass, as I went through a large supplement phase myself years ago, but I think the rationale behind taking large amounts of supplements for Peyronies Disease is just weak at best. As some of the doctors we've had here have opined, the ability of an OTC, non-regulated supplement actually affecting a complex problem like Peyronies Disease (as opposed to just being voided through urination) is pretty slim to non-existent. I know it gives us the feeling we're doing something, but I just don't think the science is there that sups really do anything for us. There are guys who swear by them, of course, and if you feel they're working, go right ahead, but if, as you say, you're fatigued, I wouldn't worry too much about giving them a rest. In decades on this forum, I don't recall anyone who ever said, "Guys, I took (x) and it cured me!" ... that's just not a thing, unfortunately.

Regards,
nemo

[curvedcarnivore]

Thanks so much for this reply.

As yes. I'm fatigued from taking them. Plus the expense and work of sourcing them all each month is getting harder and harder to manage.

I'm still anxious that by stopping them I'll miss out on healing...

But since I feel I will need surgery one day - then I'm guessing the supplements would have been for nothing anyway?

[Sonic]

Thanks so much for this reply.

As yes. I'm fatigued from taking them. Plus the expense and work of sourcing them all each month is getting harder and harder to manage.

I'm still anxious that by stopping them I'll miss out on healing...

Your diet and mental state will probably be more helpful for healing than anything. Keep away from inflammatory foods (Sugar, nicotine tobacco unhealthy junk etc) There are not any reliable studies made on a single one of those supplements you take in terms of healing or improving Peyronies symptoms. I think I already posted in this thread, some of them are really good for health overall but for Peyronies there are no studies to show they've done much.

Dr Landon Trost whom I see as the best expert on this diease worldwide has said it himself, some studies regarding Coq10 and pentox had been shown to have been falsified. The best supplements are probably those who help with vasodilation and blood flow as the penile tissues get reduced bloodflow because of peyronies scarring. Citruline and PED5 inhibitors would be your best bet at getting some form of improved blood flow, I have heard mixed results in regards to pentox but really, none of the other supplements on your list has been shown to help Peyronies.

Peyronies is something very complex, the cold hard truth is nothing as simple as a supplement will ever greatly reduce curvature or other deformities. There's really only VED or Traction that has the ability to mechanically reshape the penis when used over a long time, and even then sometimes it doesn't in many patients and those patients usually resort to the final step which would be curvature correcting surgery or an implant.

[curvedcarnivore]

Thank you mate. So it sounds like I can stop stressing about the supplements then and just continue with traction and Cialis as I work with my urologist to get to the next step. I'm starting to think though that surgery is the only real fix for this.

Furthermore, what do you think about that study by the Italian guy who claims to have completely healed Peyronies Disease with supplements?

[Sonic]

Thank you mate. So it sounds like I can stop stressing about the supplements then and just continue with traction and Cialis as I work with my urologist to get to the next step. I'm starting to think though that surgery is the only real fix for this.

Furthermore, what do you think about that study by the Italian guy who claims to have completely healed Peyronies Disease with supplements?

I've seen it, the study was only done on 3 people and the final follow up was after 24 months. That is simply not enough material to make a solid conclusion, also due to the fact that the final follow up was done after 2 years it could simply be that their scar tissue had reduced naturally over time and does not necessarily have to equate that it was the antioxidants/injections that was the main cause. If you are referring to the G. Paulis study?

There are also pictures on that study and yes, the patients had reduced curvature but still had moderate curves after the final follow up.

There will always be small studies like these done and there will be plenty more in the future where doctors make experiments and try different stuff but I definitely do not hold that study to a high standard at all.

[curvedcarnivore]

Thanks for such a great reply mate. I've been feeling a bit hopeless lately so sorry for the short reply, but I appreciate it. I think I'll stop wasting time and money on supplements.  

[DaneS89]

I don't mean to be a jackass, as I went through a large supplement phase myself years ago, but I think the rationale behind taking large amounts of supplements for Peyronies Disease is just weak at best.

I know it gives us the feeling we're doing something, but I just don't think the science is there that sups really do anything for us. There are guys who swear by them, of course, and if you feel they're working, go right ahead, but if, as you say, you're fatigued, I wouldn't worry too much about giving them a rest. In decades on this forum, I don't recall anyone who ever said, "Guys, I took (x) and it cured me!" ... that's just not a thing, unfortunately.

Yeah I should update that original post to say I was fatigued when I was taking loads and not seeing much difference or benefit. Then in the past 2 months, something changed...rather suddenly. I noticed my curve had softened. Erections stronger and straighter. My flaccid penis hangs lower and fuller and more elastic. The sensation in my glans has started to return. That's improvement, and that's my goal. A complete cure - while that would be the dream - was never my intention or expectation in taking so many supplements. It was in the hope that I could see some improvement and be able to manage peyronies/halt its progress without having to resort to the more drastic or involved treament options, for which I wanted to avoid. And thats kind of where I'm at at the moment and managing well. I'm having good sex again and my partners have even remarked that my bend is less noticeable. It's not just what I feel or believe. It's what I'm seeing and others are seeing. So my position now is that I'll keep taking them all gladly
 

[DaneS89]

There will always be small studies like these done and there will be plenty more in the future where doctors make experiments and try different stuff but I definitely do not hold that study to a high standard at all.

I would like to evaluate your "standards" a little further. Just as an example, do you hold the study on RestoreX to a high standard?

 

[DaneS89]

You know what man, on second thoughts, don't worry about it. I realised after asking that question that it could be percieved as antagonistic and that's not at all in the spirit of which I joined this forum. The back-and-forth it could lead to, the commitment and negativity of that, I honestly don't care for. So pretend like I never asked the question. Or you can answer if you like, but I won't engage further with it.

[Sonic]

It's okay man I don't take offence xD.

I think the RestoreX study is one held to a high standard as it was done by Dr. Trost and it was done on many patients, not just 3 as the previous one I talked about.