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[George999]

I am starting this thread to differentiate new novel approaches not quite yet fully in the pipeline from treatments already in the process of being FDA approved.  This is the place for things just a bit more tangible than sci-fi.  And I think there is an increasing amount of this kind of hope out there for the real silver bullet, something that completely restores the penis, not only functionally, but esthetically as well.  - George

Scientists Grow New Penile Tissue in the Lab

In the study, the researchers extracted smooth muscle cells and endothelial cells from the animals' penises. The cells were then separated and grown in the laboratory on rod-shaped collagen scaffolds for support. The scaffold was placed in an incubator and nourished by fluids to mimic conditions inside the body, Atala said.

After the cells had matured, the scaffolding and the newly formed penile spongy tissue, called corpora cavernosa, was surgically implanted into the rabbits' penises.

About a month later, the tissue began to reconstitute itself, forming new blood vessel structures necessary for proper functioning, while nerves from the existing penile tissue integrated into the new tissue. In time, Atala said, the collagen structure was reabsorbed, and the cells built their own collagen structure.

In the treated rabbits, tests showed that pressure inside the penis, a key component of an erection, was normal. Other tests showed that blood flow, response to nitric oxide, drainage of the blood after the erection and presence of sperm in the female vagina were also normal. The tissue engineering worked so well that four of 12 females were impregnated by the repaired rabbits, according to the study.

[Skjaldborg]

Wow. This is much more than theoretical since proof of concept is already happening in animal testing. Amazing! I think in the future, stem cells and tissue replacement will be the cures for Peyronie's. Maybe I should be glad I got this at 30, as in I might see a cure in 20 years...and be young enough to enjoy it! Great find George999.

Skjald

[newguy]

Fantastic. I know the fact that it's on the horion is frustarting, but it's a heartening glimpse into what te future holds.

[newguy]

Now on the BBC News site:

Tissue created in a laboratory has been used to completely replace the erectile tissue of the penis in animals.

The advance raises hopes of being able to restore full function to human penises that have been damaged by injury or disease.

Rabbits given the engineered tissue by the scientists from Wake Forest University in North Carolina had normal sexual function and produced offspring.

The study appears online in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Professor Anthony Atala said: "Further studies are required, of course, but our results are encouraging and suggest that the technology has considerable potential for patients who need penile reconstruction.

"Our hope is that patients with congenital abnormalities, penile cancer, traumatic injury and some cases of erectile dysfunction will benefit from this technology in the future."

Reconstructing damaged or diseased penile erectile tissue is a tough challenge because of the tissue's complex structure and function.

The Wake Forest team has already achieved considerable success in the field of tissue engineering, developing whole human bladders that have been implanted into patients.

In a previous study, the researchers engineered short segments of rabbit erectile tissue with 50% of full function.

In the latest work, they harvested smooth muscle cells and endothelial cells from the animals' erectile tissue.

These cells were multiplied in the laboratory and used to seed a three dimensional scaffold, which was implanted into the animals' penis.

Organised erectile tissue with blood vessel structures began to form as early as a month later.

The researchers believe the key was the fact that the cells were injected into the scaffolds on two separate days, enabling them to hold almost six times as many smooth muscle cells as in previous studies.

During an erection, it is the relaxation of smooth muscle tissue that allows an influx of blood into the penis.

The relaxation is triggered by the release of nitric oxide from endothelial cells.

Tests showed that vessel pressure within the engineered tissue was normal and that blood flowed smoothly through it and drained away from it normally after an erection.

When the animals with the engineered tissue mated with females, vaginal swabs contained sperm in eight out of 12 cases. Four of the 12 females were impregnated.

Tim Terry, honorary secretary of the British Association of Urological Surgeons, described the study as "fascinating".

He said complex, highly invasive surgery was often the only option for patients with damaged erectile tissue and the latest work offered long-term hope of a better alternative.

However, he said, much work would be required before the technique could be tested on humans, with potential problems including finding a suitable place to embed the new tissue and ensuring it had an appropriate nerve supply.

"Nevertheless, tissue engineering techniques may well lead to clinical advances with time," he said.

- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8347008.stm

[Nemo]

Scientists growing new penile tissue ... kind of interesting:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8347008.stm

[Iceman]

kind of interesting BUT way way into the future - we will all be dead by the time this comes around.

[Skjaldborg]

Iceman,

I would guess that these tissue replacement therapies are about 10-15 years away. Technology is growing by leaps and bounds and what may have taken 20 years in the past to develop may take only 10 now. Take a look at LASIK eye surgery. It was developed in about 10 years based on a discovery in 1980 that a certain kind of laser could etch human tissue and not harm the surrounding area. The device was patented in 1989. By the late 90's, LASIK had become a routine procedure and has since been improved upon. Think about it: shooting laser beams at an eyeball to restore vision became a reality from nothing to actual treatment in about 20 years. In this case, we already have successful animal results for penile tissue replacement and if there is any application to enlarge the penis with this technique in addition to replacing defective tissue, pharmaceutical companies will club baby seals to get there hands on it.

I'm not pinning all my hopes on this by any means, but let me tell you, I have more faith in the progress of these animal studies than I do in a lot of the goofy treatments I see on this forum. People have been using the same things for Peyronie's with limited benefit or no benefit for years and years and years. Why not have a little hope that in a few years we'll have more options than vitamin E, l-arginine, pentox and penile implants?

Also, there are a number of youngsters on this forum, myself being 30. We have the curse of getting this young but we may see better treatments in our lifetimes. If not, I will get an implant when I'm 60 and have sex like I was 20 again.

-Skjald

[MidLife]

It sure is great to hear a little good news about Peyronies Disease.  I am convinced their will be a cure or at least a reliable treatment in next 5 to 10 years.  Lord knows if there was a reliable treatment we would all be willing to pay for it.  Keep the faith Men!

[jackisback]

Before I got the chord on the side of my penis, I was introduced to internet health forums where I obsessed about my premature hair-loss. An often talked about procedure was/is "hair cloning", or more scientifically, "hair multiplication". It was always speculated to be "5-10 years away", but 5-6 years later, nothing seems to have changed there.

This new penis study is encouraging news, sure, but it's much more complex than Lasik (probably...I'm no scientist), and with the current state of the economy and health care reform in America, I would speculate that development for new therapies in general will not accelerate, at least until we work the kinks out. Maybe this will come out someday and your sons will never have to worry about Peyronie's, but I wouldn't count on getting anything substantial from this for another 20 years. If advancements come earlier than that, consider yourself very lucky.

[jackp]

JB

I Agree. We have to look at what we have here and now. In my case with the peyronies and severe Erectile Dysfunction my last option was an implant.

I am 67 now, why would I wait 10, 20 or more years for something that may happen. Why would I put my sex life on hold for something that may happen?

For me, my implant has been a huge success!!!   I took advantage of the what was available now. Have no regrets.

When life hands you a lemon make lemonaide out of it.

Jackp

[George999]

 I took advantage of the what was available now. Have no regrets.

When life hands you a lemon make lemonaide out of it.

Jackp

Actually, I'm not sure the two strategies are mutually exclusive.  I think even for younger guys here with severe Peyronie's problems, the option of surgery does NOT preclude the potential for a far better fix later on as the science progresses.  I certainly recognize the grief that it is to have Peyronie's at a young age, but we have to look at both sides of the equation.  And the other side of that coin is that, for those in their late teens and early twenties, there is much hope for the future.  - George

[George999]

Australian researchers are probing into the minute details of immune function.  This is opening the door to new and advanced treatment approaches.  They have found for example, that by totally suppressing antigen producing B cells for a limited length of time allows the immune system's regulatory function to 'catch up' and, in effect, stops the auto-immune reaction process.  Although fascinated by the limited information in the abstract, I can not find a way to access the full study, but I am sure it would be equally fascinating.  - George

What B cells can tell us about certain cancers and autoimmune diseases

[jackp]

George

I agree surgery is the last option. That said, if I was 25 with peyronies and severe Erectile Dysfunction why would I wait until 45 or 50 for something that may happen?

If the breakthrough happens it is not difficult for a surgeon to remove the implant. It only goes into the CC but does not replace it.

Jackp

[George999]

George

I agree surgery is the last option. That said, if I was 25 with peyronies and severe Erectile Dysfunction why would I wait until 45 or 50 for something that may happen?

If the breakthrough happens it is not difficult for a surgeon to remove the implant. It only goes into the CC but does not replace it.

Jackp

Exactly what I meant by the suggestion that they are not "mutually exclusive".   Have the surgery now if you need it.  And when they perfect regrowing penises sometime in the not so far away future, get the whole thing fixed.  I think the biggest factor is whether things are intolerable, and that is a judgement each guy has to make for himself.  If its just intolerable and you want to kill yourself to relieve the pain, by all means, go for the surgery.  If its already intolerable, surgery is very UNLIKELY to make it worse and is much more likely to make it far better, although not exactly as it was before Peyronie's.  Why suffer?  If its intolerable, GET IT FIXED!  - George

[Skjaldborg]

I agree George999,

Everyone's situation is different and surgery now doesn't necessarily rule out new and better procedures later on. Fortunately, I still have good functioning and the pain is manageable and decreasing with continued use of pentox. The deformity sucks and I sure wish I didn't have it but I don't need surgery right now (even Dr. Lue said so). If it gets worse (which it may) I may consider surgery. If I get an implant and then 10 years later they figure out how to regrow a penis in a test tube, I'll get one of those. I wonder if that's covered by insurance though...

-Skjald

[ComeBacKid]

You don't even want to get into "whats covered by insurance" I discussed this with a doctor who has peyronies disease himself.  They could make you try every other single treatment before they pay for an expensive injection series, or make you go through appeals.  Not to mention, unless I'm wrong, peyronies is a pre existing condition, that could not be covered due to a "technicality."  If you didn't admit to having it when you got insurance if they asked, you commited insurance fraud and can be charged with a felony crime. 

I wouldn't worry about that at this point, first we have to worry if the drug will work, worst case scenario is it works and your insurance won't cover it, you'll have to make a credit card charge, I guess it could be worse if its just a few thousand dollars, its still worth it.

Comebackid

[George999]

Diabetes Insight Could Lead to Better Treatments

Inhibiting a key inflammatory pathway brought powerful results in mice and people, researchers say

The authors of this study, published online Dec. 21 in Nature Immunology, started their exploration with the NLRP3 inflammasome, which has been linked with different inflammatory diseases.  ...  Inflammasomes are clusters of proteins that stimulate inflammation and play a role in the body's innate immune response, explained Dr. Norma Kenyon, professor at the Diabetes Research Institute of the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine.  ...  "Our findings predict that type 2 diabetes can be treated by inhibitors of the inflammasome or IL-1b," Tschopp said.  ...  Studies in humans are already under way. According to Tschopp, "clinical studies with type 2 diabetes patients have already been initiated and the first results are again incredibly encouraging. With a single injection of IL-1b inhibitors, glucose levels in diabetes patients are highly reduced during six months. This treatment could replace the standard treatment currently used."'

This is about more than just diabetes.  This is about a new approach to treating inflammatory autoimmune processes in general.   - George

[skunkworks]

That article seems to suggest the possibility that glucose control problems are a symptom of inflammation, rather than inflammation being a symptom of glucose control problems. If I read it correctly that is, I only had time to skim it.

Interesting to say the least, although I'd be more leaning toward some kind of feedback going on, glucose problems causing inflammation which exacerbates glucose problems which exacerbates inflammation and so on.

[George999]

Absolutely, all of these diseases are full of feedback loops.  It is likened to throwing a switch.  Once the switch is thrown it is all but impossible to reset it.  Thats what makes these diseases so difficult to treat.  But these guys believe they are on to something that can reset the switch, at least for some months.  And if they can reset it for diabetes, they may just be able to reset it for Peyronies also.  But, yes, feedback loops are occurring at every level and thats contributes to the complexity.

Another thing that is becoming known is the how the immune system itself gets distorted to cause these diseases.  Normally the immune system is a balance between T cells and B cells.  The T cells are the enforcers and the B cells are the detectives.  The B cells provide all sorts of false reports, but with a healthy immune system, the T cells are balanced between killer cells and regulatory cells.  The regulatory cells "check out" the reports and discard the false ones before the killer cells go into action sparing normal body tissue.  In the case of auto immune disease, two things happen.  One, the B cells take over and become more numerous, thus overwhelming the T cells with false reports, and two, the regulatory T cells become diminished and ineffective leaving the killer cells to reek havoc feeding on the false reports of the B cells which produce the antigens.  Additionally the memory T cells increase reducing the immune systems latency causing the problem to extend itself.  And the whole process feeds on itself.  (Pentox helps, in part, because it is a cytokine blocker and it disrupts immune system signaling.)  What is also known is that inhibiting the B cells temporarily causes the immune system to reset itself, after which it appears to stay normal indefinitely.  This research is in its early stages, but would be really cool if it pans out the way it seems to.  Right now they are trying to find a practical and safe way to temporarily inhibit the B cells.  This approach might cure a whole slew of incurable diseases if it works.  - George

[George999]

A novel modification of tunical plication by plaque thinning: long-term results in treating penile curvature of Peyronie's disease

Penile tunical plication was performed, combined with plaque thinning with carbide burs, and 18 patients were available for a long-term follow-up.  ...  During the initial assessment after 6 months since surgery, complete straightening was achieved in 83.3% patients, and the residual curvatures in the three patients were within 20 degrees .  ...   After a mean of 50.5-month follow-up (range from 29 to 72 months), although 22.2% patients reported curvature recurrence, neither the recurrence nor the penile shortening affected coitus, and 100% patients were satisfied with the results of the operation.

[Tim468]

Interesting. It is a fancy and more surgical way of combining the Leriche technique with plication.

Tim

[Woodman]

Would thinning the plaque before the plication procedure help to correct the curvature some? If so wouldn't that help save some penile length do to having to plicate less tissue to correct the remanding curvature?

[fubar]

I have been reading about the use of ones own adult stem cells for healing. Seems that adult stem cell use is legal and used for diseases such as diabeties, heart disease and others.Today I found that a stem cell clinic treats Peyronie's. The California stem cell treatment center injects stem cells directly into the plaque for men wanting to avoid surgery.I do not know about them and there research or studies.But it did raise a brow.

You can read about the team and FAQs at http ://WWW.stemcellrevolution.com/Peyronie's _disease.html

Fubar

[rd]

Has anyone contacted this place? I sent a email and am waiting to hear back.

[fubar]

Rd

Just spoke to a woman on the phone.Did not keep her on it long though.She told me it is something new,  and have had good results.She said to fill out the application and someone will contact you.She also said the procedure is under 10, 000 dollars.I want to know more so I will apply to learn more.

Fubar ( this is not FDA approved )

[rd]

Yeah I got a email basically saying the same to fill out the application and I would be contacted with more info, which I did. I am curious as to what good results they have seen and how much it is etc.

[Worried Guy]

It sounds a bit dodgy to me!  I hope it is real as it seems a little weird we have not heard about it before.  Would they not be doing this sort of thing in University hospitals?

[rd]

I heard back from them, below is the conversation. I am not sure about this place, I replied back to see if anyone has been treated yet because the website and email I was sent doesn't answer my questions.

ME:
Brief description of your problem injury or disease: At the begining of September 2010, I woke up with a lump on the shaft of my penis which is painful and uncomfortable a week later I was daignosed with Peyronies. I believe this was caused by injury during sex but am not 100% sure of this. I have no curve just a indent on the right upper side of the shaft. I was curious as to the treatment you offer and what if any results have been obtained.


California Stem Cell Treatment Center:
You certainly have Peyronies based on the description. What treatments have you tried already?
Stem cell therapy for peyronies is new and we do not have any data and therefore cannot make any claims about success, however, based on the ability of the cells to treat degeneration and create new blood vessels, we believe stem cell therapy may be beneficial to certain patients given our understanding of peyronies plaque on a cellular level.

[Worried Guy]

These guys are bogus!

[fubar]

Worriedguy

Yeah having to pay for something not approved does not sound good.She said they had done 4 to 5 people.That it was something new they were doing .I do not know what to think of it.Definately not enough information to put money down for an injection.

Fubar

[Worried Guy]

Yeah, I bet it costs an arm and a leg also.  It's not FDA approved. 

[rd]

Bascially it appears they want you to pay for the proceedure whatever that maybe and not give you any info on what it has done for the people that have already undergone the proceedure. Not a good selling point. I received my reponse from the Doctor him self, I googled him a bit has anyone heard of him good or bad?


Elliot Lander, M.D., F.A.C.S.
Boar Certified Urologist
Medical Director

[fubar]

Rd

I haven't found anything bad about him yet.Went to healthgrades.Com,  he checks out so far.No malpractice,  sanctions or boards.I'm going to keep looking and read up on the Guy.I found another Guy before I found the California stem cell center that uses stem cells.So there are probably others.

It is good to know that they are looking for options in treating this crappy disease.

Fubar

[rd]

I hope they are legit, just wish they would provide more info up front, cause if it works I'm in.

[nycsurfer]

They did a 60 Minutes piece on these folks who claim that stem cells cure anything -- offering to inject it ost everywhere. "The whole thing is pretty much a crock" was the gist of the piece. I would run the other way.

[fubar]

Nycsurfer

I'm not running anywhere I have not ran to neprinol which claims to be a cure.I have not read or heard from them that there injections are a cure.Does not hurt to investigate, right?Seems that this whole business is a crap shoot.

I will look up the sixty minute piece.Maybe it is on you tube.

Fubar

[rd]

I found the clips on youtube just put in 60 min stem cells. I think this maybe one what they are talking about just with out the promises.

[rd]

I got another response from them concerning if they have treated anyone and the results. Still seems a bit shady

We just started our protocols and so far we have only treated a couple peyronies patients. Therefore, it is too early for results. We might know much more in 12 to 18 months. Peyronies is very troublesome and there are minimal effective options. We are hopeful that we will make a difference because of what we know stem cells are capable of but we are unable to promise anything at this time. In this early phase, we are offering treatment to patients interested in our experimental protocol (approximately 25 million mesenchymal stem cells injected into the
penis) at the reduced cost of $5,500. We are happy to be a resource for you as you explore all your options. Let Barbara Dunne know any time if you want to have a phone consult or see us in person. Best of luck,

Elliot Lander, M.D., F.A.C.S.
Board Certifed Urologist
Medical Director
California Stem Cell Treatment Center

[fubar]

Rd

It is media,  I do not trust them as I do not trust anybody.Being a member of this forum there are few members I trust also.Their are few and I'm sure they know who they are.Look we are but a number to anything but God.

We have to explore each and every avenue fore a cure.One bad apple does not mean they are all sower.The move On stem cell research for peyronie's is still positive .It is complicated wallet and soul.I have reviewed some clips and want to view more.

I have seen a man say i have seen about 200 stem cell centers pop up the last five years.Try to find them I'm not saying they do not exist. But really where are they.

Fubar

[rd]

Very true I'm just frustrated with this disease and want it gone. I feel like I get my hopes up then let down. I hope this could be a actual working treatment. I'm going to continue to reseach this as well.

[fubar]

Rd

Today I watched Dr Jill helms of Stanford university speak and take questions.The content was about stem cell and tissue regeneration. IT was very extensive lasting 149 minutes on you tube.There seems to be alot of stem cell video.Interesting stuff you will learn alot.

Damaged tissue is the best treated in the acute stage because there is less scaring.The cells need to differentiate and be placed at the damage and stay where it is place.Injections are tough in doing this.There are risk such as cancer.Stem cells can morphasise into any cell changing in to that cell.I need to watch again to be sure.

Interesting but use of stem cells seem to still be in the early stages.So give it a watch when you have the time.

Fubar

[fubar]

Rd read more information on stem cell research and  watched  another video on on stem cell treatment that was used for a German Sheppard with hip dysplasia that heald well .The dog had been in much pain could not climb stairs,  get into vehicles or run.Know it can do all these things and run chasing  squirrels.Pretty impressive stuff.I found Dr.Lander had smother site WWW.landerUrology.com and saw him speak on you tube about other urological diseases.Could not find him speaking about autoglous injections I do know it is a Korean technique.

When I speak to him I want to as him about risk of cancer development and also its use for the diabetes and heart damage both that I have also.Whatch some testimonials on stem cell use for diabetes that seemed promising. Also  want to ask him about cost as it does seem alot cheaper than overseas.
I want to know how he places the stem cell with injection and are sure that they will soil and stay in place.What to expect from reduction in plaque and if new cells can restore this dammaged tissue as I believe through watching some video can be complicated or may not work on this.So basiccally I have been learning some but have been preoccupied in researching this and doing other things.

They stem cell technology has advanced 10 years in the last year.The Stanford piece was 2009 so I want to see the latest which one done 9 months ago.They even can take an adult stem cell am manipulate to an embryonic stem cell.
People are even saving the placenta and embryonic fluid to be stored for their children for future use.Crazy hugh,?

Fubar

[Luciano]

@fubar
You are right that a lot has been done in this matter, but I still would be very carefull.
It is not because NASA was able to send someone to the moon, that I would buy a space-shuttle from a former NASA technician who tells me he built the one he wants to sell exactly the same way.

All of these are "NON official treatments" and the "Doctors" doing this, are sometimes more interested in your money than in your health.
Maybe there is someone out there that has the knowledge and knows what he is doing, but for Peyronies Disease you will probably be the first guinea pig he will test it on.

Luc

[fubar]

Luciano

Yeah I think it is at the Guinea pig stage with this Guy.His other site WWW.landerUrology.com say it is study and research I would not put out 10.000$ for something that did not have evidence in a positive way.according to the person I spoke to it has helped some guys.But that is here say.

I am waiting for a responce fro them as I filled out their application.Spending time learning a bout stem cell.It is pretty amazing science. So I will continue to get excited about it.From what I learned on you tube .Not sure if it could help Peyronie's out of the acute stage.Also there is a chance of cancer then ones penis would be in deep trouble.

I do not want to be a Guinea pig,  but I think xiaflex is a Guinea pig Study stage also.

Fubar

[Luciano]

I do not want to be a Guinea pig,  but I think xiaflex is a Guinea pig Stuyvesant also.

Fubar

Yes but xiaflex it is a controlled study.. it would be like getting the xiaflex (product allready exists for dupuy contractions) and getting a compounding doctor to inject it for you. Not being sure of the dosage etc... thats what I call Guinea pig...
after a controlled study, i somehow feel safer.
L.

[Worried Guy]

Also Xiaflex study is not the first trial.  We are now phase 3 I think and it has already been proven "based on the investigator's global assessment, 67% of subjects were very much improved or much improved after treatment with Xiaflex" in phase 2 with no adverse side effects. 

[fubar]

Worried Guy

I'm not trying to start a debate.From what I know phase three is the first study  use on Peyronie's disease.Dupytrens is considered closely related to the Peyronie's injury.Xiaflex was developed for dupytrens.Yes they are controlled studies.They do controlled studies on lab rats also.

I hope xiaflex helps and some say it is.I do not remember saying anything negative about the medicine.If you feel the use for Peyronie's not experimental so be it.I do not expect people to feel the same way, I do not argue that fact.

Fubar

[Worried Guy]

Hey Fubar,

These are the results of the phase 2 trial

http://www.auxilium.com/ProductPipeline/PeyroniesDisease.aspx

They are not that detailed and I would like to see the actual study in full.

I think stem cell could be a valid choice in the future but i'm just not sure that it is there yet as far as technology goes.  I think it is something to watch closely but can't help feel that Lue, Levine and Ralph here in England would have funding and be doing studies on it right now if it were.  I could be wrong.

[MikeSmith0]

This seems like it could be a nightmare if the injected cells decide to turn into anything but healthy tunica tissue...what if they die or cause more scar tissue and inflammation?  They could turn into nodules, etc... who knows?  It's not clear how this could cure Peyronies Disease...just randomly injecting stem cells and hoping they'll figure out what they need to do... they act like they are nanites from star trek.  (Seriously - one of my favorite episodes too: http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Nanite)

[fubar]

Man I did not mean to create a monster when I made this a topic. I vaguely described that these are some concerns.Research is moving a lot faster in stem cell research than Peyronie's. By the way you already have nodules in your penis from Peyronie's,  vepramil injections and so on.

Hell I have fatty deposites throughout my body and I'm skinney.Lumps and bumps such as life.Might be good if you look into it some more they can use healthy stem cells from the same tissue that is non diseased.look I really do not know much about it.But what I have learned is remarkable.

Fubar

Surgery for Peyronie's disease-sex, implant, scars, stem cell treatment

Started by Charl Surgery for Peyronie's Disease

Cheap Stem Cells, Turning Urine into Stem Cells.

Started by MIKEHAWK Developmental Drugs & Treatments

Florida Urologist Publishes Exciting Results of Stem Cell Treatment for Peyronie

Started by lukewill Developmental Drugs & Treatments