Traction

[Hawk]

I would think the Traction is increasing both the plaque and the rest of the penis but more slowly initially on the plaque because of the firmness of the plaque. I think it will take additional time to gain length in the plaque even though the plaque will be stretching more aggressively than the rest of the penis. However, I would expect over time the the plaque will eventually give in and "catch up" to the length in the other areas.

Ptolemy,

I respectfully do not think a theory or illustration can be made to support that collusion.  In fact I think that all evidence as incomplete as it may be, suggests the opposite.  The plaque is shorter than the rest of the penis.  It is doubtful if the short side of the penis could be stretched enough to pull the slack out of the long side until the curve was all but gone.  There is no stretch placed on the normal tissue until the short side is stretched to an equal length of the long side. (see the illustration on message #222 in this topic.

This is the very reason we cannot stretch our penis as long as we used to be able to stretch it.  The short side limits us from getting the length of the long side.

[Ptolemy]

I followed 222 and I understand and agree with the logic, that over time there should be a straightening. However, when I'm extended in the Traction device and I feel the shaft, everything is stretching except the plaque. So I would expect to see growth on all sides, and eventually more growth on the side with the plaque. But if the plaque itself does not stretch, just everything around it, I would expect the straightening to occur sometime later than overall growth and only as more and more stretching occurs on the plaque side.

If you glued a quarter to a tubular balloon and began stretching the balloon repetitively and every so often blowing it up to check the degree of the bend what would be the results? I'm suggesting you might see the balloon get larger initially but not see a straitening as early. Possibly I'm wrong, I've never tried the procedure.

I've only been stretching for 6 weeks and I can already see an increase in length and girth but the degree of the bend remains unchanged. I'm hoping a degree of straitening will eventually occur. Otherwise I will end up with a bigger better looking penis but just as useless.

[Hawk]

...when I'm extended in the Traction device and I feel the shaft, everything is stretching except the plaque. So I would expect to see growth on all sides, ...if you glued a quarter to a tubular balloon and began stretching the balloon repetitively and every so often blowing it up to check the degree of the bend what would be the results?

Ptolemy,

Interesting discussion but I am not signing on to your explanation.  First off, I accept that there could be some logic with blowing up a balloon and stretching the "other tissue" and not the plaque.  The problem is that that example would apply to a single cylinder VED certainly not a traction device that exerts ONLY a longitudinal tension.  Next, if you glued a quarter to a balloon and stretched it, it would have to rip out the glue (or stretch the quarter) before it ever actually put a stretch on the opposite side of the balloon.  Your illustration under-cuts the point you are trying to make.  

It is without controversy that the loss of length in a penis is caused by the plaque.  If it is on one side of a penis rather than diffused, it causes loss of length on one side which equals a curve.  Since the plaque is the short fiber, it is impossible to stretch a penis with plaque to its extent and not engage the plaque because it is the plaque that determins the extent.  If the plaque were not engaged the penis would stretch to its original length.  Since it is engaged, the long side of the penis cannot be stretched before the plaque is stretched.

The blue lines in post 222 cannot be stretched by a longitudinal pull (traction) without stretching the side that is red.  

Levine's lecture and photo series at the AUA conf. bear out this process of straightening resulting in modest length gains, not preceded by length gains.

[Ptolemy]

Hawk, I think your logic is more sound than mine and I hope it is as well because straightening is my primary objective. I am still curious though why jjmnpi and I have not had any straightening so far. Having spent 1 year on Verapamil, VED for the following year and since January 2008, Traction as well as VED, the consitency of the plaque it is both amazing and frustrating. Growth is the only change that I can notice. I wasn't aware of Levine's lecture and photo's. Are they available on-line? Was the straightening a result of the plaque stretching or was it simply all the tissue on the same side of the plaque stretching with the plaque essentially unchanged? Straightening is the primary objective. Removal or reduction of the plaque would be a secondary objective. Possibly a straightening is unachievable without a change in the plaque.

[Hawk]

Ptolemy,

Attached is a modified diagram showing only a spot of plaque on the short side.  Even in this diagram the tension would have to be applied to the short side tissue more than to the long side tissue.  That tension would be applied to both the plaque and the normal tissue on the short side, but in any case it would have to stretch that side before and to a greater degree then the long side.

Also keep in mind that the hypothesis is that this is not just about stretching, but remolding tissue.  This means that as cells die and are replaced, they are replaced with a greater number of cells, or cells of a more normal elastic nature than the ones that die.  This turn over of cells will not happen at a fast rate no matter how intense the stretch.

Cheers

[Tim468]

Hawk,

The only problem with that diagram is that the plaque does not (usually) run the entire length of the penis. Thus, the stretch could be applied to the entire "normal side, stretching it a finite amount (ie 1/2 inch), and could be applied to the opposite "abnormal side" such that the length reaches a 1/2 inch increase (or more in a cylinder), but with all of the stretch being found in the normal tissue on the abnormal side.

Here is my crude ASCI art of what I mean:

Before:

##################################

##########********#################


After:

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

# # # # # # #  # # # #********# # # ## # # # # # # # # # # # # # #

                                |     -      | (note the lack of stretch in this section)

So it seems possible that length gains might be made in all the normal tissue without a stretch  to the plaque ast all. Of course, it seems that the reality might be somewhere in between.

Tim

[Hawk]

Tim,

I think my last diagram illustrated plaque only on a spot on one side as opposed to the entire length.  

I readily concede normal tissue on the short side could be stretched, but in any case it is the short side tissue getting stretched (regardless of which tissue on that side)  before & to a greater degree than the long side tissue.

Am I missing your point or did you miss mine?

Your example would really be

#############################  
#########*****############             With curve

##############################
# # # # # # # *****# # # # # # # # # #   Representing straightening by stretching the                                                                                         normal tissue on the short side

Whether the plaque or the normal tissue, it is the short side that has to stretch when you stretch.

It seems we are making the same point.

[jjmnpi]

Ptolemy,
I think the plaque has a tendancy to return back to its pre-stretched condition. I does not have the elasticity of the normal penile tissue. This is why we have not seen an improvement in the curvature. I still believe that constant stetching and consistant stretching with blood flow to the affected area can only help. This is the path that I am going down. It might take 12 months, give or take, but I will not quit! I hope I can help somebody on this forum someday.

jjm

[Old Man]

jjnmpi:

Traction, VED and other penile exercises can only help with the health of one's penis. I know first hand that the VED was the main source of my relief from Peyronies Disease. It took the greater part of a year of daily VED exercises to produce the final results. It took the first 6 months of daily use to get rid of almost all of my symptoms.

Today, I still use the VED at least three or four times a week just for maintenance of what I have gained. There have been several times when I did not use the VED for several weeks and my penis began to shrink up again. I firmly believe that the VED can and will produce good results for Peyronies Disease symptoms as well penile health.

I will continue with my maintenance schedule from now on. It can only help so that is the reason I will stay with my routine. Traction devices also have their place in Peyronies Disease therapy, so if you are using that method, by all means stay on a strict schedule of exercises with it. And, if you are using the VED along with the traction, this would only enhance the overall therapy program for you.

Old Man

[dahc]

I also think that traction is, for me, a long term project. After 9 months of disciplined use of my Fastsize I still have more curvature than I would like. What really drove this home was finding a long lost picture of my erection 10 years ago. Really depressing seeing the longer and straighter version. I'm pretty sure I would be even shorter and more curved if I hadn't started treatment including traction.

[jjmnpi]

Old Man,
Thanks for those kind, positive & productive words. It's good to hear that you had sucess with the VED.

jjm

[sunny]

Hello to all,

I have a bend in my penis I am trying to correct and would like to consider using some traction device. I have read through much of this section on traction and understand that traction seems to have an improvement on length. However, are there any real cases where anyone has experienced a marked improvement of curvature after traction use?

Thanks!

Sunny

[jjmnpi]

Sunny,
After 10 years of dealing with peyronies, I think traction might be the only hope. There are no pills, there is no cream or gels or prescription drugs to dissolve the plaque. I think stretching the plaque is the way to go. I have been on a traction device for a little over 3 months. I haven't had any improvement in the curve yet, but I will continue using the device and I will keep you posted.

Good Luck!
jjm

[Ptolemy]

I'm 7 weeks into Traction usage. Have been averaging 4 hours a day for the past 4 weeks. Tonight for the first time I noticed a very slight tenderness near the plaque while wearing the device. Don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing. Have any users out there felt any plaque tenderness?

[jjmnpi]

Ptolemy,
I didn't notice any tenderness. I do notice, when it is stretched, cords that run up either side. They almost feel like fishing string. It is on both sides so it didn't concern me as being abnormal. When I wear the traction device and get an erection, I am a straight as can be. No curve. No dents and it looks like a full erection. It's almost like the plaque is stretched out enough to allow blood flow to that area. When it is not stretched, I have the curve because blood is not flowing to that area. I am about a month ahead of you as far as use of the traction device goes. I also wear it at least 4 hours a day, sometimes more. I took a couple days off this week to give it a rest. I will start up my routine again tonight. Keep me up to date on your success and I will keep you up to date on mine.

jjmnpi

[dahc]

Ptolemy,
I get sore occasionally after stretching but not localized to my plaque. The soreness doesn't last very long after taking the traction off.
DAHC

[AR]

Hey Guys.

I'm sitting here waiting for 4X Labs to call me back, and I'm a heart beat away from ordering their "Delux Edition" stretcher because of the "Hybrid Support System" that Hawk mentioned, which made sense to me.

I had narrowed my search down to this or the Fastsize but am leaning towards the 4X.

Anyone have an opinion on this?  Pros and cons, spring-tensioning, customer service etc..?  Some aspect or feature I should know about?

I'm also aware that I can, as Hawk pointed out in his hilarious On The Light Side post,  have the 4X personally engraved, and so, I'm considering having my wife's monogram put on it.

Thanks.
AR

[Hawk]

AR,

You know my opinion.  I like options rather than someone else locking me into what they think feels most comfortable or workable on my penis.  The hybid system gives that.  I assume it has a patten or every traction device would use it.  In my opinion it is a no brainer.  

If you do not get the X4, get one with a wide strap rather than the noose.

[shrout]

Hawk

Your post ( #55, 6 September '07 ) suggested that the results Dr. Levine's trial study on traction would be published within 30-60 days. 6 months on and we're still waiting, unless I've missed it. I've trawled through the thread and the only reference I've found is to a pilot study, the results of which seemed quite encouraging. Have you got any further news? Thanks.

[Tim468]

I do not think it is patented, Hawk. It is simply a field of endeavor that is in transition. More than one penis enlargement device offers such a band instead of noose, and the X4 upgrade package is designed to work with systems that do NOT have a band system as well.

The "ThundersPlase" website is fanatically against the devices because of the noose; it seems that there is a softening of this opinion when it comes to the band - a grudging reacknowledgment that it might be OK. Still, there is a residual resentment there that "medical devices" are over-priced rip-offs, a sentiment with which I agree in general. The main limitation of his very large and good site is that there seems to be a lack of understanding of the risks entailed for some to develop Peyronie's. Rather, I think the general consensus there is that people develop Peyronie's only if they do something in PE "wrong". In fact, more than one guy here tried some technique "right" and still ended up injuring their penis. As we have agreed here before, it is not the injury per se, it is the biological substrate upon which the injury happens that leads to Peyronies developing (ie our innate tendency to do this).

Given those caveats, the advice there seems to tilt towards do it yourself devices. The one device that seems to bridge the gap is one that has developed a silicone "cap" that slips onto the end of the penis and allows traction to be applied nicely without any form of noose (by developing a vacuum seal). Though this has a home-made quality to it, it seems to be made by a good hearted man who works hard to do a good job - based on the many testimonials to him there. I may try his kit to see if it works - hopefully it won't be good money going after bad.

Tim

[Hawk]

Tim,

I have always thought traction and VED devices are ridiculously over priced.  

As far as the silicone cap is concerned, I think such a system has the potential to be the best yet.  Anything that grasps a large surface area of the glans would work.  Manual traction is very comfortable but a bit limiting to walk around pulling your penis between your thumb and folded index finger.

Even a piece of saran wrap placed around the glans with the tail of the wrap twisted into a rope works good.   If the glans is dry it clings tight and sustains traction.  The problem is that this would require weights (or some other system) attached to the tail.  I consider weights too risky.

[Hawk]

Shrout - I have no idea where an update is on the traction study.  I do know that Levine now is listed  on the board of Fastsize.  These things concern me.  Anytime money and influence is passing back and forth, it calls objectivity into question.

Hypocrisy may be too strong of a word, but it kills me how professionals and some websites denounce commercial marketers of products and yet spring to accept position and money that represent a clear conflict of interest with objectivity.  They denounce many supportive or alternative treatments as being unproven but rush to prescribe potaba, Verapamil injections, and colchicine, with little or no data that it works and some that it causes harm.  

Now they jump on the ban wagon with treatments that forums have promoted for over a decade while they were laughing and denouncing those devices.  

It reminds me of a Scout Master joke of a Scout Master addressing a passing hiker.  "Excuse me, I am looking for my troop!  Have you see a bunch of Boy Scouts pass by here, I am their leader?

Just who is leading who?

[jon]

well, fwiw, I just ordered my traction device from X4 labs today, and should arrive within a few days, so you'll have another member onboard with a traction device, taking objective measurements as things progress.

[AR]

Count me in. I ordered a 4X stretcher today as well.
AR

[Ptolemy]

I ordered the Upgrade Kit from X4 Labs today. They assured me that the Comfort Strap would work on my FastSize.

[Hawk]

I just read under another topic you got your traction device from 4X already.

I am shocked you could possibly get it is 3 days from Canada.   You obviously did not get it through the postal system.

[AR]

Yes. USPS Priority Mail from Montreal.  Ordered 3/3/08.  I think that's 4 days, but not sure..?

Now excuse me while I go try it out.   (:

AR

[Old Man]

AR:

Don't get over anxious/over zealous and overdo it the first time out from the starting shoot!

Old Man

[AR]

Yeah,thanks Old Man.

I only did an hour with moderate tension. Pinched myself a few times trying to get it on, but I think I've got the 'hang' of it now.

I was pleased to learn that under my boxer-briefs, long johns, and a pair of loose fitting jeans it was totally comfortable!  Mostly I was sitting, but I did get up and walk around a few times with no difficulties...I guess I thought wearing it would be more incapacitating.

I wont go out and chop firewood just yet.

AR

[jjmnpi]

To anyone trying out some sort of traction device, last night I found something that I thought was amazing. Last night while wearing my traction, I wanted to get an erection to get some blood flow into the area. It's kind of hard for my wife to help me get an erection with this TV antenna looking thing wrapped aroud my penis. So I found some online porn. Some good online porn! Not to sound too perverted, I got it good and stiff and observed the curved area which is on the left side. I couldn't see anything and I couldn't feel any plaque. The base of my penis was very thick. Thicker than the rest of it but it was as straight as can be. I went into the bathroom and took the device off and it was as hard as as straight as it was when I was 18. 27 years ago. Now, it didn't stay like that for a very long time. Maybe 3 - 5 minutes, but I was extremely encouraged by this. I thought, if I could combine a VED with traction it would accomplish two things, stretch the plaque and promote blood flow at the same time. Stretching is good to battle the plaque, but I think blood flow at the same time can also be a benefit. I can't sit up watching porn every night! It doesn't sound too difficult to combine the two. You could wear the traction device and have a cyllinder large enough to wrap around it, get a good tight seal and pump it up. Does this sound crazy to anyone?

jjm

[Tim468]

It doesn't sound crazy, but it sounds complicated!

Tim

[Old Man]

jjmnpi:

No, it does not sound crazy as Tim says, but it would be extremely uncomfortable to try and fit a large cylinder over the traction device.

Don't think you would be able to get a good tight seal against your body or your penis with the device in place.

OLD MAN

[Angus]

  How about the guys that own VED's and traction devices just alternate using the two? I made my own VED's, and I suppose someone could make a traction device inside a VED but the tube would be huge. Getting all this stuff inside a drain pipe sized tube would be challenging and getting a good seal would be tough. Finding a clear tube that's big enough would be the easy part; finding a set of wheels and axle system to roll this creation around the house would be formidable!

[jjmnpi]

I diagree. I have looked at some VED's online and the tubes look plenty big enough. I guess I'll have to find the dimensions on some of them and measure. Maybe I can find the one that Austin Powers used in his movie. That one looked like it would work just fine.

jjm

[Ptolemy]

I received the X4 Labs Upgrade Kit (Comfort Strap) today. There is little documentation in the package on how to apply. I can't find anything on the X4 Labs website either. Any guidelines out there from you users? I don't want to experiment with a couple of poor mounts.

[Hawk]

Ptolemy,

I would prefer you pose questions rather than me writing a dissertation on those things that may be obvious.

The main concept is that the indentation in the base goes to the underside with the rounded side to the top.  In that position make sure that the adjustment knobs nearest the base are turned until NO threads show.  That means no threads showing on the base end of the knob or the end of the barrel end of the knob.  Turning the knob either reduces or extends the threaded rod from both the base and the calibrated barrel AT THE SAME TIME (As long as the barrel does not turn with the threaded rod).

At that point put the foam sleeve around the penis right behind the head and cinch the strap pretty tight over the foam.  Now you can begin to turn the adjustment knobs counter clockwise from the point of view of the base.  The threads should start to appear as they back out of the base and back out of the calibrated barrel at the same time.  I alternately adjust each side several turns.

The only real issue I have had is that at times the calibrated barrel may turn along with the knob.  If it does then you will only screw out from the base rather than from the base and the calibrated barrel and the base at the same time.  Just hold the barrel with fingers of the other hand if that starts to happen.  You can hold the knob stationary and turn the barrel to make sure the visible threads are equal on both sides.

Every now and then your extension piece may start to unscrew but that only happens if you did not snug them down when you added them.

I got a permanent marker to mark the threads at the very end so I know when I have extended as far as I can without having the threaded adjustment rod come out of the base or the barrel.

Hope this helps.

[Ptolemy]

Thanks Hawk. My questions were more into the Noose (Strap) itself. I assumed it was carved somewhat to make room for the nob of the penis but the way it was lined up on the brief Installation Instructions, it was lined up in the opposite direction to the Plastic Support. Now that I've got it on, much seems intuitively obvious. I'm better at instructions than intuition for this and didn't want to risk an injury.

I had to take out 2 small bars to get the approximate same stretch as the tubes. The X4 Labs Plastic Support doesn't slide down as far around the extenders so I require two less. FastSize extenders are larger in diameter than X4 Lab extenders. The threads and screw holes are the same.

My initial views now that I've got it working - it is far more comfortable and as a consequence I will be able to engage a tighter stretch. I like the idea of being able to switch around (tube vs. strap) to reduce the risk of injuring - the same spot over and over seems to eventually create a problem. I've also found multiple 1 hour sessions is easier to handle than a 2 hour session.

[jsotheby]

I was wondering if someone could give me some idea of how many people, or what percentage of the people on here who have used the extender or traction devices, have experienced increased length b/c of it?  

A trauma has given me a slight curve but severe ED and shortening.  At least 3 cm in 6 months, I think.  Has anyone recovered .5cm or more?

[Hawk]

By my calc. .5 cm is less than 1/4 of an inch.  My opinion is that I think everyone has that much success with traction.

[jsotheby]

Thanks.  If you dont mind me asking, how much have you recovered?

Also, is it legitimate to press as hard against pubic bone to come up with the measurement, or is that cheating?  Some sites say to press as hard as you can, which does increase the measurement.

[Hawk]

I "gained".9 centimeters or 3/8th of an inch in less than 30 days for about 2 hours a day, 6 days a week.  At that point I had disruptions that stopped my use of the device which I may be starting back up as much for objective documentation as for myself.


I do not think the stretch is the main idea.  I think slow remolding the tissue is the main concept of long term traction.

As far as pressing the ruler against the pubic bone (known a bone pressed flaccid length or BPFL) it is fine.  Clearly your pubic bone is not moving and if you gain or lose a significant amount of weight, just pressing against the body could be deceptive.  The key is be consistent.  The point (for me) is not what your measurement is as much as, are you gaining or losing.

[jsotheby]

Have you ever heard of the traction method improving severe ED at all?  Some claim that larger penis leads to longer erections.  I was just wondering if that is true or not.

[Hawk]

Have you ever heard of the traction method improving severe ED at all?  Some claim that larger penis leads to longer erections.  I was just wondering if that is true or not.

I have heard that traction can lead to better erections but I have no verification on traction helping ED at all.  If it does, I would reject that concept that a larger penis is the issue.  

[jsotheby]

Oh ok, I guess it's the theory that you are generating fresh healthy tissue or something?  Do you think that's true, or that it is just old tissue stretching?

[bodoo2u]

Fellas,

After I wear my traction device for an extended period of time I experience some soreness in the area where my scrotum meets the shaft, and about an inch or two down the underside of my shaft. It's from the ring rubbing on my. Is anyone else experiencing anything like this?

[Ptolemy]

Fellas,

After I wear my traction device for an extended period of time I experience some soreness in the area where my scrotum meets the shaft, and about an inch or two down the underside of my shaft. It's from the ring rubbing on my. Is anyone else experiencing anything like this?

I experience some tenderness there but not enough to concern me. And I am very cautious since developing Peyronies about anything that might hurt my penis. So if I felt too much tenderness I'd back off. I was wearing the device for 4 hours a day but lately 2 to 3 hour is all I have time for. I only wear the device at home.

[bodoo2u]

Thanks Ptolemy, that's good advice. I think I might have overdone it once or twice, so I kind of take it easy now. I've been using the traction device for about 6 months and my condition hasn't progressed, so I'll keep at it.

Bodoo

[jsotheby]

If you don't mind me asking has either of you noticed any improvement in terms of length?

[bodoo2u]

jsotheby,

I think I have regained some of the length I lost, and most of the girth. The girth came first, but I'm still not as thick in the area of the plaque as i was before. The curve looks better most days, but sometimes when I wake up at night with an erection it looks like there has been no improvement. At this point I will be happy not to progress any further.

[rainforestman]

What about this guy?  htttp://thereviewsthatcount.com  ?  He says he used the size genetics system to help his case of peyronies.  And he also used it for penis enlargement.  What do you guys think about the size genetics?  worth it?  Thanks for the help.