ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[swimfly]

Tim,
You must be talking about a product called Extenz? If it is, the company name is Sizegenetics I believe. If one were to check out their site, you 'd find it claims their products cure every male issue there is. Some of them are mentioned but vague terms are all over the site. Of course you have to buy a different product for each concern, including peyronie's. One thing never once mentioned on the whole site is what the "herbal" ingredients are. I was specifically searching for a content lest. Got bored one night and searched their site after seeing that silly infomercial.    swimfly

[George999]

Swimfly,

I just not too long ago read of a certain "nutraceutical" company out here on the west coast that was trying to sell one of those expensive heavily marketed specialized miracle cure formulations.  They got caught by the FDA in a very embarrassing situation.  It turns out that they weren't able to sell all of their stock on hand, so at the expiration date, they simply invented a new miracle cure for a completely different affliction, and, you guessed it, they simply ripped the labels off their old stock and glued the new labels on and had a new marketing campaign going in no time.    Pretty cool, except, of course that someone turned them in.  Oh well, as they say, buyer beware!

Tim,

While in general I agree with you, in all the time I have dealt with PDI, I have found them to be honest and straightforward.  The guy who runs PDI is a chiropractor who himself suffers from Peyronies.  He, as is the situation with many chiropractors, happens to be deeply 'into' alternative medicine, a substantial portion of which, I personally dismiss as quackery.  But this guy, Dr. Theodore Herazy, has the kind of training and personal experience to provide a ton of useful information, I am very confident of that.  But there is a fine line between what I believe to be legitimate complementary and alternative medicine and the stuff which borders on quackery and not all of us agree on those issues.  But I can also tell you that PDI offers a wide range of supplement and other products aimed at Peyronies sufferers AND I have looked at pricing across the web, and I can also tell you that their prices are extremely reasonable for the products they sell.  So while their is stuff they sell that I would avoid like the plague, homeopathic stuff and such, that is just me.  I just don't swallow that approach or others as well.  But some people do, and if they go to someone like Dr. Herazy, at least he is not going to shear them like sheep in terms of pricing.  So while I don't completely agree with the guy, I respect him and his training, and I find his site and his store very useful.  I think it speaks well of him that he was willing to link to this site with all of its wide open discussion which is our hallmark here (as in nothing is sacred around here).  Additionally, I think it is good that this site has linked with them, as I have found them to be one of the few useful (and reputable) Peyronies sites on the web.  So while I understand your position, and I share the same skepticism, my personal experience in dealing with PDI has been a good one, and I just wanted to share that. (Actually, I hope that Dr. Herazy himself will take the time to follow some of the discussion going on here, as I think he would benefit by it in terms of concepts and our community needs someone like him to be a link to the various product distributors out there and someone like himself could be helpful in terms of making sure stuff for us that is not generally available is made available at reasonable prices by someone who understands our needs.)

- George

[Hawk]

Tim,

We agree more than we disagree and as I said in my post, I have not totally formulated my position on this issue.  As George says about on person selling alternative methods, "he is really into alternative medicine".  I may be missing something, but lots of us are "really into alternative medicine".  Would it be OK (ethically not legally) for George, Rico, and I to write an Internet book and sell our opinions, based on our interpretation of studies we have read?  I personally could never participate in that.  If I had a PhD in nutrition, and years of experience working with urologists implementing holistic approaches to urology, then maybe.

I know I am rambling but the biggest turn off I can encounter is someone not clearly stating their credentials.  I have read books by Dr. Whoever ( I have pitched them) only to research and find that first, they implied they were an MD or at least did not make it very clear that they are not.  Secondly, investigation reveals they have a PhD in a totally different field.  JUST BE UP FRONT.  If you are not upfront with that kind of stuff who can trust you on anything?  I am not talking about the book that started this discussion.  I am talking generally, but I am interested in the qualifications of that author and if he clearly states his qualifications or if one is left to assume.  This is the first test of integrity for anyone selling a book or products.  If you don't pass that, you don't get a second look from me.  If you state, I am a PhD. in psychology and when i saw the devastation of this disease in the lives of people I made it my mission to learn more.  Then I may raise an eyebrow but at least I have respect and i will look closer.

A lie is to deceive others.  You can do that blatantly, or with inflection in the voice, or by what you imply and fail to say.  Its still a lie.  Even a chronic liar tells the truth more often than they lie.  They can tell you 100 things that are true, but it is always that one lie that will get you.

[percival]

I started taking 1g/day arginine about  weeks ago and it improved tendonitis in my thighs. However, 2 days ago my unit became slightly painful the touch when flaccid - near the glans, close to some old plaque (about 24 years old).  I have never experienced any pain before, whether soft or hard. Is this a sign that Peyronies Disease is moving into the 'active phase' ? Alternatively, could it be actually moving some old plaque and thereby causing this change of sensation/minor discomfort?
At least something is happening! What worries me though is Tim's post:

So, you did read a post by me stating that I thought arginine may make Peyronies Disease worse, when it was in an active phase. the only data I have to back it up is tangential, and my desparate attempts to figure out why my Peyronies Disease is getting worse right now.

Percival

[Tim468]

Percival,

I am unsure of my own issues - it's even harder to try to figure out someone else's! I think that pain could be a sign of things changing for the worse or the better. I guess I use new changes in shape to guide my thinking. I also notice, FWIW, that my pain is never terrible, but varies from none to a little bit, randomly.

Again, it is not science, but I am cycling off of arginine for about two weeks, and then will start it back up to see if thre are any correlations in my own processes that I can observe.

Tim

[George999]

I just want to interject that in the case of Peyronies, as I have stated previously, I think it is very important to maintain control over inflammation.  Thats one reason that I use things like aloe vera, fish oil, mangosteen, and hefty doses of heavy duty anti-oxidants like vitamins C and E.  My concern is that if I loose control over inflammation, I will end up sustaining more damage than I already have (that happened to me once, big time, I lost a lot ground and ended up worse off than ever, and I don't want to allow it to happen again), so my strategy has been to literally attempt to build a wall against inflammation while I at the same time attempt to attack the plaque.  Over the last week, by the way, I have noted some additional progress, so hopefully the attack of the sunflower seeds is helping me to  gain some additional ground.  I am really looking forward to getting started with the L-Norvaline.  That is my next project in my war on Arginase. - George

[Rico]

George,

Take a look at VASOSTATtm by Cytosport..... I think this is something you might be interested in...more powerful than arginine for NO effect? I haven't used it.....might take a closer look.... looks interesting..also there is Vyotech Nitrobolic Extreme with L-Norvaline, Tropical lemonade....this seems to be getting attention with the gym rats.....good find George, I'm glad you and Tim where looking at this...I think I will give one of these complex mixes a try after my xyience runs out...

Best regards,

Rico

[Tim468]

Rico,

I do not come up with anything when I google VASISTAT. cytosport takes me to a bodybuilding site that is extremely annoyihg because it does not seem to have a search function to search for their products!!!

Can you try this hot tip again with a proper spelling?

Tim

[Rico]

Tim,

Vasostat by Cytosport is the correct spelling......Not vasistat....

Rico

[Rico]

Members and Guest,

Vyotech and Vasostat are brands names using L-Norvaline...the claims are 60% more NO in the blood stream...bodybuilding.com and other sites or forums give there opinions on these products...

In working out there is no quick fix just like with peyronies....although you can cheat with steroids:)...but you are taking your true health in the opposite directions you should be doing, you look good but your liver and kidneys and heart ect...are taking a told on you, plus this look is short lived....

If you work out hard and take some SUPPLEMENT, once again supplement means to supplement, some feel this is a good approach along with proper diet and exercise...

I believe in what George is doing, going after the inflammation, through diet and some supplements...

When I went to my Urologist he himself had about a 36 inch chest with a 40 inch stomach, he prescribe potaba for me, I choose not to take it from what I had read on it..... he never mention diet or exercise...

I don't think myself that one will cure his peyronies with diet or exercise....I would think if the scar tissue is form it is there, but can one stop the inflammation or help control it with exercise and diet....I believe you can and I would think this would help keep your peyronies at bay...maybe help with the pain, and maybe if going into a complete lifestyle change isn't what someone can do then the pentox/arginine/Viagra protocol or injections ect...is the way for one to go, this is a personal choice for all of us....

I have read about the shotgun approach, throw everything at it....I guess my thoughts are on this is I think it is good but not in the way of shotgun with all supplements....more for me shotgun with diet, exercise, VED and a couple supplements....I really focus on my diet..I feel for long term health and well being I will get the most benefit....also if you focus on hearth health you might just get more benefits for your unit than you would think......

Peyronies can be very difficult for one to get his arms around, but if you say, I need to shut down the inflammation and focus on this with a shotgun approach and then remold the plaque through VED, it seems more attainable to me.....and you mind set has to be that this will take time, maybe one year or more.....

Rico

[Tim468]

Vasostat is no longer being made it appears, and Vyotech is a company name, not a supplement name.

I am unsure that norvaline would last long in the blood, but am researching it more.

Tim

[George999]

Tim,

  One thing is certain, Norvaline is really catching on in the bodybuilding world it would seem.  There are more and more products that are including it.  And some of them are using some time-release type formulations along with some molecular formulations designed to help their payload better survive stomach acid.  But I am finding that many of these products seem to be on back order right now.  At this point I have SNS Arginine E2 Matrix on backorder from bodybuilding.com.  Apparently it, like other norvaline containing products is fairly new on the market, but it does have a few interesting reviews:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=835526

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=666404

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=665954

Of course these are bodybuilding reviews, and all I am looking for is improved blood flow using this stuff in concert with a nice workout on the treadmill a couple of times a day.  So I am not quite sure how that will work out, but I am planning to give it a try.

Also Hawk and I have been discussing Lysine a bit via private message.  It seems that for reasons not completely understood.  Lysine + Arginine has a different effect on the body than either one taken separately.  The major point being that taking Lysine at the same point in time as Arginine blunts the effect of the Arginine and results in a different unwanted effect being potentiated.  Hawk initially brought this concern up in a generalized way, referencing a very good link (see below), after I suggested that Lysine should be taken along with Arginine in order to suppress Arginase.  Additional information seems to suggest that it also suppresses the desired NOS stimulant effect of Arginine as well.  So now I'm not so sure about taking these two together, in fact I am suspending it at this point and am taking them separately instead.  Hawk is apparently looking into this further.  It will be interesting to see what he finds.

- George

[Power]

Guys,

Stumbled accross this while researching pentox.

http://www-dsv.cea.fr/content/cea_eng/science_vivant/part/brevets/pharma/1233.htm

Power

[Rico]

Forum members and guest....

I think it would be in everyone's best interest to google opc....you can add search words like opc and scar tissue, inflammation, or circulation....

Rico

[George999]

Power, thanks for sharing the Pentox link.  I really think the future of Pentox is huge.  I don't think they have even yet really begun to touch on its medical capabilities to treat all kinds of diseases  that were previously assumed to be 'untreatable'/'incurable'.

Rico, I also think the power of OPCs is being largely ignored.  I found this page, posted by a plastic surgeon to be especially informative:

http://www.jamesbeckmanmd.com/scar.php

Also, this very interesting piece alledgedly from the company owning the original patent on OPCs:

http://www.proanthocyanidins.com/#dimer

Buyer beware?

It can be purchased here:

http://www.healthysource.com/main.html

- George

[Rico]

George,

I have found that grape seed, red wine extract, billberry, martime pine bark mixed in combination to be effective in inflammation reduction and over all circulatory benefits....I like billberry for eye health....

I don't think that opc's will remove scar tissue, but the circulation for over all health and the stopping of the inflammation to curtail the progression of the plaque is something that the OPC's might benefit the peyronies patient....

I personally know people who have taken there children off of Ritalin due to OPC's and I have had success with the stopping of inflammation in my elbow and knee....or I should say pain, which I think was cause by inflammation....

Rico

[Rico]

Forum members and guest...

I have been reading on Korean Ginseng....Mayo clinic studies and also sites like bodybuilding.com  I just want to bring to everyones attention that they suggest cycling of and off....three weeks on  and two off.....

Rico

[George999]

Rico,

I was told to do a lot of walking for my BP years ago by my doctor.  Wanting a better 'workout', I asked a friend who was casually into bodybuilding for suggestions.  He suggested I should buy a Health Rider.  So I spent quite a bit of money for one of those contraptions (which were quite popular at the time and being heavily marketed), and for me, it really turned out to be a disaster.  It just made me sore and tired and the impact it induced was just more than I could take.  Sure, I could work up a sweat on the thing, but I couldn't maintain it.  And I felt really beat and bruised when I got off of it.  So now, years later, and desparate with my BP situation, I went out and paid big bucks for a treadmill.  My intention was to provide a way to get in my walking when the weather was lousy or when the only time I had for exercise was after dark.  But now, after trying it out, I am finding it to be completely different than what I expected the treadmill experience to be.  My expectation was that treadmills were sort of like 'walking indoors'.  But after fiddling with it for a few days, I was absolutely amazed that I can work up a major sweat on that thing and maintain it for 40 minutes and, the most amazing part of all, feel completely refreshed when I dismount it.  What I am finding is that the ability to finely define speed and incline is what makes treadmilling so different from walking (along with the fact that I don't have to stare at the ground all the time to watch out for what the dog walkers have left behind in my path).  I am just truly delighted with it and really recommend it to those who really need more exercise, but are not really into bodybuilding.  My daughter, who frequents the gym all the time at college, tells me I should have gotten an eliptical instead.  (And my wife tells me that she is not going to allow me to turn our house into a gym, just in case I have any thoughts about adding an eliptical).  But now my wife and other daughter are also using and enjoying the treadmill, so, as I said above, I do highly recommend it and highly recommend exercise to anyone who has Peyronies.

- George

[Rico]

Dear members and guest...

I was posting about OPC's, which I do take myself.... they are known to have possible anticoagulant benefits also and people on blood thinners should be aware of this and shouldn't take until they talk to there primary care giver....trental(pentox), is one of these...

My own opinion on the pentox/arginine/viagra regime would be not to take other supplements when I was on this, a multi vitamin might be the only exception...blood thinners stay away from...One can read studies that say ginseng out performs trazdone for penis circulation/blood flow.... but then you have to get a good brand of ginseng also....

It is the one thing that I feel the drugs have over the natural herbs, is more consistency in the delivery....the opc's have more of a medical  grade to them and some doctors prescrive them. But the ginseng is still coming from overseas...anyway remember there is a rhyme and reason to supplement or take the drugs.....don't over lap...

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico,

I do not necesarily think all ginseng is coming from pver seas.  As a matter of fact, american ginseng is the most expensive of the 3 types and acts much like the korean ginseng.  I have taked korean gensing for 6 days at a little above the recommended dose. I have read it takes several weels to have an effect.  I can say that my experience after 5 days is that it cannot even begin to compare to trazodone.

[Rico]

Hawk,

What is the recommend dose you are taking....where you taking 1200 mg?
Maybe the red ginseng isn't the best? This is what I read, the Korean red which I believe is red after they process it by steaming the roots....

I did say that I believe the prescriptson drugs are more consistent and have quality control....I will try to find the article on ginseng vs trazdone...

What is the difference with trazdone for you? Is it blood flow? I'm interested in trazdone, I know it is use for sleeping also, do you find you get a hang over from it and do your recommend it for peyronies?

If anyone has a good supplier they recommend for ginseng, I would like to hear about it also.....

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

Rico,

According to GNC you need to be on these supplements for weeks before they kick in, the horny goat weed and ginseng that is.

The trazodone left me feeling drowsy the next day for a few weeks, after about a month this side effect went away.  I definately noticed night time erections and what not.  The question I have is if you take it for like 6 months or a long period of time and then stop, will you automatically keep getting erections in the sense you have conditioned yourself to do so.  Some have said you can do this with viagra.

ComeBackid

[Liam]

I was doing a reality check with myself about how many substances I am, or have been, using.  Then I had a little head trip, a flashback, if you will.  There was Grace Slick in her prime,

"One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
Go ask Alice
When she's ten feet tall"

Just my way of saying a reality check is good.

Now, back to my hookah and the chess game.

Liam

[Tim468]

Panax Ginseng is Red Ginseng, and it is the one that has been tested heads up against trazadone. The potency of a drug is pretty meaningless. It means nothing to me that Cialis works at 20 mg and viagra works at 100 mg - that does not make one "better" than the other. Similarly, we may not be approximating the doses used in the Ginseng study with OTC meds we use here. Unfortunately, we do not have a standardized dowing or even extraction methods for some of these items, and so translating a research study into action is quite difficult.

Tim

[Rico]

Tim,

I know you have taken cialis, do you think this is the same as taking Viagra for peyronies....what is the effective of taking these with peyronies for quality of erection? My doctor told me it wouldn't help me with the bending effect....I'm interested in your opinion Tim on taking pentox/arginine/viarga with other supplements...I know you have said that you feel the pentox is the best program probally out there right now being offer for a oral treatment.... do you feel one should not be taking other blood thinners or supplements with this program?

If you had no pain, and the curve was stable and you were five months into this, would you take the pentox program...would you do the edma verapamil, or injections? I think we all believe in the VED and a good life style, diet exercise, we know this can only benefit ones over all health.....

Are you using trazdone, this seems like a good sleep aid...

The problem with peyronies is that it is such a huge mind job on ones esteem, just the thought of the hour glass takes the erection quality away...it is hard(no pun here:)) to figure out what is really going on sometimes....

DannyOcean I know you are using the pentox/arginine/viagra  what are your thoughts on this, what is it like taking viagra everyday?

Rico

[George999]

The fact is, I have read warnings on legitimate medical websites against substituting American or even NON-RED Asian Ginseng for the Red Asian Ginseng.  Most of the studies have been done on the Korean Red.  But from what I have read the Chinese Red is OK.  The NON-RED Ginseng is not OK and the American Ginseng is definately not OK in terms of what we might be taking it for.  In fact the reason I went to the trouble to spend as much time as I did on this is due to my hypertension.  The Red Ginseng is the only type that has been shown to lower BP.  And there are medical professionals out there that warn against NON-RED Ginseng, saying that it might even raise BP.  And I agree completely with Tim, potency in terms of MG is a useless number.  The big problem you run into in pharmacology is what do you do when you compare Product X with Product Y?  10mg or Product X has the same potency as 100mg as Product Y?  So is Product X more potent or even the better product?  What if
I also told you that 20mg of Product X would increase its effectiveness by 2X and 200mg or product Y would only increase its effectiveness by 10%.  Now which is the best product?  Also jumping on and off drugs or supps is not a very good way of testing their effects.  Some pills take effect almost instantly, others, including some prescription drugs, take a month or more to really kick in.  Thats why when they do studies they don't just give people the pills and have them come back at the end of the week for the final evaluation.  So for what its worth.

- George

[Rico]

George,

Thanks for the update, I thought I read somewhat along those lines also.....now the red Korean or Chinese is from the process of steaming the root..right?  I know that steaming in some cases can bring out more of a products potency...maybe this is the case with the root?

I do believe you are right that these supplements take sometime to kick in and one of the problems is we don't give them a chance....it is hard when you read a article and one says they are crap and another says they are good.

What is your take on the pentox/arginine/viarga?

What ginseng are you taking? How much?

Have you also read about one should cycle of the ginseng, three weeks on and two off?

What is your take on ginkgo? I keep seeing it mixed with ginseng?

Rico

[Hawk]

I am in a big rush George, but thanks for additional or repeated info.  I read and I am typing fast so if this reflect nonsense call me down on it (I would you  )This is where I am coming from.

The link you or someone (in depth on erection physiology) indicated there are only 3 species of ginseng, American, Korean, and Chinese sometimes called Siberian.  it indicated that the American and Korean are both of the genus "panax".

While mg is not an accurate indication of potency, standardization should be,  provided labeling is accurate.  We know the latter can not be assumed.  I found a site from a link here or on my own that independently tests many brands of ginseng (and other supplements).  You had to pay to find the bad ones or to see the full report but it listed a brief that showed 3 brands that were potent as labeled, free of heavy metals and pesticides within guidelines.

Your link also indicated that unlike HGW, ginseng had to be taken for "several weeks" to obtain the full erectile benefit.  

Finally, I have low blood pressure if anything and ED drugs are known to lower blood pressure even more.

I would like to clarify for others that my results were stated when on ginseng only 5 days, and that I have had nerve damage due to a prostatectomy.  Like others, I have my individual body chemistry.  Vary any of these and maybe ginseng can compete with trazodone.

Also, I work closely with my family doctor.

[George999]

Hawk,

I think the problem, or at least one of the problems here, is that there are only two types of RED Ginseng, Korean and Chinese.  There is no such thing a American Red or Siberian Red.  The only conclusive tests that compare Ginseng to Trazadone were done with Red Panax.  Thats the bottom line.  And those tests revealed that NON-RED Panax was inneffective as I recall.  So if you have low BP, most likely the other forms of Ginseng will do you no harm, but they are not likely to provide the help you are expecting either, although they might be helpful with other issues.  People take all kinds of ginsing for all kinds of valid reasons.  As far as the toxic contaminants issue goes, I am much more comfortable with the Korean products than the Chinese products, simply because I believe that the Koreans with their democratic government probably are more careful about those things than the Chinese with their non-democratic government.  I always prefer food products that come from more westernized cultures when I have a choice.  But unfortunately, especially in the case of these herbal products, few vendors submit to USP oversight.  Of course having said that, one has to recognize that you can die within days from tainted spinach grown and processed right here in the USA and supposedly overseen by our own FDA.  My response in terms of things like Red Panax that might be of questionable quality is that I use a little of it.  I tend to use a little of a lot of things consistantly rather than jumping from one thing to another.  Sort of like balancing a stock portfolio.  The downside of course is that in my case, while my Peyronies just keeps getting better, I have no idea which components are helping and which might be slightly poisoning my.  Whenever I have doubts about a supplement, I stop taking it.  On the other hand when I kind of identify things that are working (like I noticed my blood pressure rise significantly after I stopped taking CoQ10 for many months), I resume them or even increase the dosage.  So all of this for me is sort of like feeling ones way around a dark room.  There is research out there, but even research is sometimes conflicting.  So one just has to do there best to find whats best for their own situation and their own unique body.

Wishing you the best

- George

[George999]

Hawk and Rico,

Do yourselves a favor and look over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginseng .  I often find wikipedia most useful when I am looking for specific facts, it is like first stop on the quest.  I highly recommend it.  It can prevent one from chasing down many different and obscure rabbit trails with just one quick scan.

Rico,

As far as processing 'increasing potency', its not that simple.  Processing can eliminate certain effects and even create whole new effects that weren't even there in the initial product.  This is where the drug industry makes their money.  Right now I am taking Prince of Peace Korean Red once a day.  I read what you posted regarding going on and off a supplement, many pros recommend that, I probably need to practice it more.  But since I take everything at very low doses, I am probably at less risk of either toxic effects or having my body adjust and losing the benefits.

As far as Pentox/Viagra/Arginine, I am extremely impressed with this strategy, the problem is getting access to the treatment.  And as far as taking drug therapy along with supplements, I would advice anybody, if you have any doubts about this TALK TO YOUR PHYSICIAN AND/OR PHARMACIST, its that simple.  I make a lot of those decisions myself and I take responsibility for them and my physician knows that, but each person is different.  If you need expert advice, by all means get it, talk to the professional.  AND if you are taking drugs and supplements together and you get a nasty reaction, stop the supplements IMMEDIATELY until you get things figured out and contact your doctor IMMEDIATELY if you continue to get worse.  You can always restart them later when you have a handle on things.   But don't make the mistake many make by moving blindly forward assuming it will pass.  Thats how people end up in intensive care or dead.

Ginkgo ... I have no experience with Ginkgo, but I might eventually give it a try, it has some interesting qualities.  See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ginkgo  for the skinny.

- George

[ComeBacKid]

Rico,

Can you list the things that the panax ginseng includes, when I was in GNC I think this is what they were trying to sell me, the guy said that one works best for increasing libido.  

thanks,

ComeBackid

[Tim468]

I have been unable to differentiate between Red Korean and Red Chinese Ginseng, since bith are called Panax ginseng in th e literature, suggesting it is the same root. I have tried three different brands, two that came in small liquid bottles, and one that is powdered. I got an iimmediate improvement in Am erections, but the difference has seemed to fade a bit.

I am trying cycling off for a bit. I am also restarting my program of supplements - to see if I can find a reason to trust or distrust my L-arginine!

For Rico's question - first off, none of us are in anyone elses shoes, so it is hard to say what one "should do". I use a few principles to guide my behavior and choices.

First, do no harm. Do not pump to super high pressures, for instance, and damage your dick. Do not take 200 mg of viagra a day because that must be better than 25 a day. Do not triple the dose of Trazadone. Do no harm is the first and most important principle.

Second, I believe in doing what is generally healthy. That includes anti-oxidant therap, exercise, prayer and meditation, journaling, reading and relaxing. Things that help me will.. help me.. get it?

Third, I like to start cheap if at all possible. Affordable is good.

Fourth, I like to add things one at a time to see if I can tell if it is helping. I like to give it a week - not to see if it helps, but really to see if there are side effects I want to avoid.

Fifth, I read carefully and have moved fast to the "best" therapy - even though it has failed me so far. Thus I have tried, say, iontophoretic verapamil and carnitine. Didn't hurt me, and didn't help that much either.

Sixth, I have tried to keep an open mind. I have used the VEd for many months, and am now trying a modified protocol. I also try to understand WHY something might work to decide if it is for me. Thus, I like the idea of the VED, but I think that for denting or hourglassing, it makes more sense to get to the larger tube faster. I may be wrong, though.

As for now, I plan to get on Pentox and (back) on arginine. I will negotiate and hopefully win on the viagra.
I am not sure if cialis works as well as viagra - it is more PDE5 specific, I think and so may not work as well - but I THINK that PDE5 is the one I WANT to get to be there. So maybe Cialis is better than viagra - for me. It is for ED, since I get almost no side effects from it.

[Power]

Hey Guys,

In need of some advice.

Been on the pentox/arginine/viagra routine for the past 7-10 days. I was wondering. Should I stop to do a body cleanse before i continue. I am thinking along the lines of giving my body a clean slate, that way giving the regimen the best chance to so what it claims to do.

Any thoughts on this would be helpful.

Kind Regards,
Power

[Hawk]

Tim,

Like you, Everything I have read says there are only 3 types on ginseng.  Two panx (Korean and American), both of these are in the same family but of a different subtypes.  And Chinese that is also often called Siberian which is of a totally different genus (non panx).  In fact the non-panx is not a true ginseng. As you know, these have to do with the botanical classification and have nothing to do with where they are actually grown or processed.  Korean ginseng (Panax ginseng) can be grown in China or vice versa.  I have read some seemingly scholarly briefs of these with no new information.  I have yet to read the wikipedia reference that George pointed me to.  If it has new information I will seek to back it up with other sources since I very seldom rely on wikipedia as a primary source.

[Hawk]

After reading wikipedia, it appears "red" refers only to the processing method but it is still "Panax ginseng" (Korean) as opposed to the non-panax Chinese/Siberian.  American is "panax quinquefolius"

If it is "Panax ginseng" it is Korean by common name.  It could be grown in Korea, China, or elsewhere since it is usually cultivated. Ginsenoside is the active component.

Red means the "Panax ginseng" was heat processed with the sun or by steam.

[Rico]

Power,

You don't have to stop taking the pentox to do a cleanse...I don't know what your diet is like, but you can do a fruit cleanse or a three day water juice cleanse....I sometimes do a small cleanse, don't eating anything that has a face or came from something with a face, everything else goes....lots of fruit and veggies and water...clean you out and gives you lots of energy, I would see why you would have to stop the pentox/arginine/viarga with this though....

How long have you had peyronies and what are your symptoms and did you suggest this to your doctor or was it his idea, the pentox ect...

Another three day cleanse I like is you take three gallons of distilled water, mix 12 organic lemons, just the juice and 12oz. of organic maple syrup, all natural top grade A grade....make three gallons, 12 lemons and 12oz. of maple syrup in each gallon, drink just this for three days....you will get all the minerals and vitamins you need from the maple syrup and the lemon juice will cleanse your system with the water.....you will keep energy from the syrup also....you will drop five pounds also....great cleanse....the day before just eat fruit, this will flush out your colon also...

Rico

[myrddin]

I found the previous discussion on arginase inhibitors interesting.  It was mentioned at that time that Sunflower seeds were a natural arginase inhibitor, but I have had no luck finding any studies or evidence on-line to support this fact.  Where can I find more (actually, any) info on the arginase inhibiting action of sunflower seeds?

Thanks

[Rico]

myrddin,

Put sunflower seeds as arginase in yahoo search and you will get many articles on it....

Rico

[myrddin]

Put sunflower seeds as arginase in yahoo search and you will get many articles on it....

The search results still don't seem to apply to the topic I'm looking for, namely, Do sunflower seeds, when eaten, inhibit the activity of the arginase enzyme?

I haven't discovered any source that states anything like this.  I don't doubt this conclusion (I'm sure it wasn't pulled out of thin air), I just haven't found any support for this myself (yet).

[Rico]

Dear forum members and guest:

Pentox/Arginine/Viagra have been stated as maybe the most promising oral combination of drugs and supplement combo that one can be taking..... it seems that on this forum there is only a couple of people taking this?  And I know of only one person  DannyOcean that his doctor prescribe it on here.... is that because he has the cool name:)... serious... what gives with this.... how about you Power...you seem like a sharp guy, did you come up with this or did your doctor?

Rico

[George999]

Myrddin,

This one is a bit tricky to find.  The problem is, it is not fully documented on the net, but there are references.  For example, if you do a search specifically on pubmed for "sunflower arginase", you will come up with this:

1:    Torrigiani P, Serafini-Fracassini D, Bagni N.    Related Articles, Links
Free in PMC    Polyamine Biosynthesis and Effect of Dicyclohexylamine during the Cell Cycle of Helianthus tuberosus Tuber.
Plant Physiol. 1987 May;84(1):148-152.
PMID: 16665389 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
2:    Muszynska G, Reifer I.    Related Articles, Links
No abstract    The arginase inhibitor from sunflower seeds: purification and inhibitory properties.
Acta Biochim Pol. 1970;17(4):247-52. No abstract available.
PMID: 5495357 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3:    Reifer I, Augustyniak H.    Related Articles, Links
No abstract    Preliminary identification of the arginase inhibitor from sunflower seeds.
Bull Acad Pol Sci Biol. 1968;16(3):139-44. No abstract available.
PMID: 5671113 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
4:    MORAWSKA MUSZYNSKA G, REIFER I.    Related Articles, Links
No abstract    PREPARATION AND PROPERTIES OF THE ARGINASE INHIBITOR FROM SUNFLOWER SEEDS.
Acta Biochim Pol. 1965;12:187-94. No abstract available.
PMID: 14302419 [PubMed - OLDMEDLINE for Pre1966]
5:    REIFER I, MORAWSKA G.    Related Articles, Links
No abstract    AN ARGINASE INHIBITOR FROM SUNFLOWER SEEDS (HELIANTHUS ANNUUS).
Acta Biochim Pol. 1963;10:413-7. No abstract available.
PMID: 14067411 [PubMed - OLDMEDLINE for Pre1966]

So there are studies, they are just old ones that were never archived.

- George

[George999]

Hawk,

Look again at that wikipedia entry, specifically::

Panax ginseng Chinese/Korean ginseng (root)

and:

Eleutherococcus senticosus (Siberian ginseng)

And these points are not in dispute in the discussion.

By those points and from the studies, of which there are eight pages worth if you search pubmed for "red ginseng", I am left to conclude that the ginseng I am looking for is either  Chinese Red Ginseng or Korean Red Ginseng which are actually the same plant which happens to be grown in both China and Korea.  In Korea the nuture and marketing of Ginseng and especially Red Ginseng is overseen by the Korean government.  I would expect the same to be true of the Chinese Ginseng industry.  So the key here is that Korean Red Ginseng is grown and processed in Korea and Chinese Red Ginseng is grown and processed in China.  Other than that distinction they are the same product.  As for Chinese Red Ginseng being marketed as Korean Red Ginseng, I think that would be a misrepresentation on the face of it, and I wouldn't buy from a company that was doing business like that.  Prince of Peace http://www.popus.com actually sells both forms, the Chinese grown product and the Korean grown product.  The other major vendor of Korean Red Ginseng is GINKO International http://www.ginsengcompany.com/.  They also sell both the Chinese grown product and the Korean grown product.  Chinese Ginseng is not or at least should not be called Siberian Ginseng as they are two completely different plants.  I believe that both of the above mentioned Ginseng marketers sell Siberian Ginseng AS Siberian Ginseng and also American Ginseng as well and claim different medicinal effects for each of these products.

- George

[George999]

Tim,

I wish you the very best on your Pentox strategy.  If my Peyronies was severe enough to be causing me a problem (or if it ever heads in that direction), Pentox would be the drug I would want to be on.  The Pentox/Viagra/Arginine combo seems to be just about the most promising therapy out there at this point.  So I wish you the best on the Viagra front, and also that you finally see some real progress where it counts.

- George

[George999]

In regards to taking Vitamin E along with Pentox, I found the study referenced previously by Power http://www-dsv.cea.fr/content/cea_eng/science_vivant/part/brevets/pharma/1233.htm to be interesting.  It specifically mentions Vitamin E being used with Pentox as a therapeutic combination.  So the fact that both are 'blood thinners' might not preclude both of them being used together after all (**BUT CHECK WITH YOUR DOCTOR FIRST**).

- George

[Hawk]

George, to me the bottom line is:

The type -  Clearly that is "Panax ginseng" regardless of the common name
Standardized for  "ginsenoside" the active ingredient
Contaminant free - I think that can not be assumed by common name, or by either the claimed or the actual place of origin.

I would much prefer independent testing such as http://www.consumerlab.com/results/ginseng.asp because labeling on even such things as potency, standardization, impurities, are all very suspect if not worthless.  This is true of many supplements.


Finally the process of steam or sun heat (both called "Red")
I am interested in any studies where the "red" was used in a test with standard "Panax ginseng" as a control.  Without that, I think claims of superior impact is suspect.

[flexor]

I am taking Arginine Alpha-Ketogluterate. A web search throws this up as being used by body-builders, but apparently the basis is that it is a more effective producer of NO than L-Arginine.

Does anyone know anything about this ?

Flexor

[George999]

Flexor,

I suggest you take a look at this thread at bodybuilding.com:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=830139

The bottom line is that most of the Arginine variants play a role in nitric oxide production, but there are subtle differences in the way they work, that is why most bodybuilding Arginine supplements contain multiple types of Arginine.  I was confused by all of this at first, but finally came to the realization that it is probably to complex for me to try to figure out.  The major bodybuilding supplement companies continually spend lots of money trying to get there formulas just right, and they create specialized amino products that they aim at specific goals.  At this point I have just kind of thrown in the towel on the do it yourself approach to Arginine and instead have a custom formulation on order.  If you look over the bodybuilding.com forum, you will find threads where supplement company representatives dialoge with supplement users and those users comment on the effectiveness of the various formulations.  I have found that spot to be the absolute best source of amino information simply because no body really cares about aminos except bodybuilders and health food fanatics and since bodybuilders are more dependant on the immediate results, I think they are probably the better source of information.  Thats my take and I think Rico would probably agree with me on this.

Hawk,

You've got me dude, I tend to be a skeptic, but you outclass me by far!   I think you have Ginseng nailed down pretty well at this point.  There are studies on the Red Ginseng but not on the common (White) Ginseng, and most notably no comparison studies, so who knows?  If it works, use it!

- George

[ComeBacKid]

It seems that pentox has generated a lot of buzz for helping fight peyronies and curing it in the medical community and on this forum.  I think most of us have seen the published study or report from Dr. Lue who seems to believe in this.  After carefully reading through the pentox study this short paragraph seemed to catch my attention and make me question just how good the pentox is for fighting against long standing peyronies and calcified plaques.  Previously I got the impression from our discussion on the forum that pentox can over a long period of time (like a year) get rid of some calcification or still help with peyronies.  The bolded phrases below seem to dispute the optimistic things we have been talking about on here regarding pentox.  I mean only 2-3% have seen full or partial resolution of calcified plaques, this is less than spontaneous resolution of ones peyronies.  Am I missing something here?


"We have not generally used it for patients with chronic stable lesions or with heavy calcifications, since we presume these to be stable and less amenable to pharmacologic intervention. We have seen improvement of this nature (full or partial resolution of calcified plaques) in approximately 2–3% of our patients. Stabilization of the disease process is common, but is far more difficult to distinguish from the natural history of the disease."

[Rico]

ComeBackid,

I think it was the rat's dicks that they had positive results with....maybe we need to eat more cheese...brillant:)!!!

Rico

[ComeBacKid]

Rico,

The clinical tests they did were on Dr. Lues patients, they did do a study on rats, but in this particular study Dr. Lue is talking about a couple of his different patients, and apparently there is a study to be published soon.  You seem to be overly skeptical of pentox, it really isn't just a blood thinner like vitamin E, and it has helped my erections and helped straighten out my erections so I'm going to stick with it, I can tell I"m getitng fuller erections as well.