ORAL TREATMENTS - GENERAL - Vitamins, Prescriptions , Herbs, Supplements

[Liam]

Prince of Peace is a major brand of KRG.

Korean Red, Korean Red
He'll steal your woman, then he'll rob your head.

[DannyOcean]

Yeah, I developed my Peyronies Disease after a period that I would consider the least sexually active of the last 10 years for me.  I still don't know if there was an incident of trauma that caused it.  There was one moment I can recall that might of been it but I definitely didn't feel any pain and didn't think much of it until the Peyronies Disease developed a few weeks later.  Anyway, if I could recommend something to all those who don't have Peyronies Disease it would be to keeping getting frequent erections throughout your life even if you aren't sexually active.  I think that an extended period of low blood flow to that area could likely be a prime contributing factor in the development of Peyronies Disease.

Dannyocean said:

And I have noticed that when I'm more "sexual" in my everyday life (chatting with girls, going on dates, etc.) then I tend to hang better.  I went through a part of my life when I pretty much tucked that stuff away...that's when I developed Peyronies Disease...go figure.

I understand that to mean that you were not sexually active just before you developed Peyronies.  That is interesting--I came down with mine after several weeks of no activity.  My first real  erection after that period involved  a strange pain which felt as if I was overfilled, but I know now was the start of Peyronies Disease.

Dillon
[/quote]

[myrddin]

I would do some research, I don't know how much vit e you take ect.... there seems to be some thought that if you are taking pentox to not take other blood thinners.... ginkgo for one... it is strange, because then I read something where they prescribe pentox with vit e also???  Personally if I was on something as strong as pentox I would stop all other blood thinners....how much does one need?? especially on the dose you are on, three times Day....much stronger than herbs...

I agree we should be cautious, so I did a little more research on this.  I found what you were referring to, that Pentox and Vitamin E combined has been found effective in treating Radiation Induced Fibrosis.

For what it's worth, here's one article.  there are others out there too.

At least this tells me it does not appear to be dangerous to combine the two.

[George999]

Tim,

Would not Arginase itself be an interesting target along with TGF-beta?  There are actually a number of well known Arginase inhibitors.  Actually sun flower seeds contain an Arginase inhibitor.  And the latest generation of body building Arginine supplements coming to market are advertising the inclusion of various arginase inhibitors.  Thus this might be an interesting adjunct to Pentox?  Your thoughts?

- George

[ComeBacKid]

Tim,

Are you then saying that one is safe as long as they are taking pentox along with the L Arginine?  I'm surprised Dr. Levine would recomend taking L Arginine if it could indirectly increase collagen production.

[Tim468]

ComeBackid,

I think the key issue here is in *active* lesions. In an actively contracting status, I think the addition of arginine may promote collagen formation. In a healing or "it's all over" mode it should be OK, since the TGF-Beta1 levels should again be low, and thus the arginine should shunt towards NOS and NO production.

George, I know nothing yet about aginase inhibition, but I will be spitting sunflower seed shells like a major league baseball player as soon as possibel - and I expect that you will let us know as soon as possible of other ways to reeduce arginase activity.

I found another interesting link. A company is releasing to market fairly soon (the pipeline is full of drugs in progress) a drug that increases TGF Beta 3 levels which are associated with embryos, and scar reduction, whereas TGF-Beta 1 and 2 are associated with maturity (ie no longer an  embryo) and scar progression. The drugs are being tested for surgical scars and other fibrosing conditions.

http://www.renovo.com/content.asp?c_id=10

The links in the upper right hand corner are to other similar drugs they are promoting. I think that we may soon see some of these in trials in the US - perhaps within 3-4 years.

I of course would like to sign up sooner. Perhaps there is a home program - I could simply SAY that I have a keloid on my chest, and go ahead and try it out by injecting it into my penis.

Ah, the risks and joys of knowing a little too much, but not enough...

Tim

[George999]

Tim,

After some review, it turns out that the substance being touted as an 'arginase inhibitor' additive to L-Arginine is actually another amino, L-Norvaline.  Apparently there have been no actual controlled studies in regard to any arginase inhibiting effects of L-Norvaline, so at this point it looks like its claims are limited to the supplement marketing category.  However, I do find it very interesting, also the inferences about sunflower seeds, another elusive situation, when it comes to pinning down evidence.  In the case of sunflower seeds there were studies years ago, but no abstracts are posted.  At this point, I'm with you.  I actually have a store of neglected sunflower seeds at home and I am now going to be paying much more attention to them.  I am also going to be on the lookout for L-Norvaline.  In my case, I have the ability to tell pretty quickly whether or not these substances work.  I can just check my BP after ingestion and see if they have any noticable effect on my NOS efficiency.  If I notice anything provocative in the process, I'll let you all know.

Another interesting point is that a key component of arginase is manganese.  So I'm not sure if I would want to be taking any supplements containing manganese.  Added by George999 on 12-06-06:  Actually manganese is an essential nutriant, so my suggestion that it should not be taken in a multi formula was just plain off the wall - please don't take it seriously, there is no problem taking a manganese containing multi.

As for the pipelines being full of drugs,  I do think that is really great news.  I think the only problems with that for us here is 1) it is likely to be three to five years for many of these drugs to gain FDA approval and 2) when they do become available, they are going to cost a king's ransom.  That is not a problem for a few of us who are fortunate enough to have prescription drug coverage, but for many others of us, it mean waiting an additional 17 years for generics to become available.  But indeed the future is bright, and for all of the young people on the forum, I would say take heart because you will see an effective and affordable cure for this problem before you reach midlife.  In the meantime, we are stuck with things like sunflower seeds.

- George

[George999]

Here we are, all taking L-Arginine to get blood flow to our penises, only to find out that it is all being eaten up by our peyronies which is getting 'fattened' in the process.  O cruel world!

[Rico]

Dear forum members,

It seems like I'm on this thread for arginine, I don't know if it should be on oral supplements...but since we are on the subject here....

Dr. Ann de Wees has twenty years of study on arginine....I found that in this article that it stated also you could increase the blood flow to your penis by over 20% just by exercising your thighs...

Anyway this is a good read   http://www.arginineresearch.com/L-Arginine.htm

Rico

[Liam]

I found that in this article that it stated also you could increase the blood flow to your penis by over 20% just by exercising your thighs...

Maybe "Smilin' Bob" could co- star with Suzanne Summers on the infomercial.  I can see it now, pumping those thighs with an ear to ear smile.

[Hawk]

Rico,

You did good with the link.  I just put http:// in front of it which makes an active, clickable link out of it.  I have seen this page before.  The entire site is interesting and I always intended to go back and study it in-depth but never took the time to find the link again.  Thanks!

The first time I was on the site and again now, many details about the selection of arginine jump out.  This one is a prime example.

Do not rush out and buy plain L-arginine, because L-arginine without the correct synergists and co-factors or an improperly prepared L-arginine formula can cause reactivation of the herpes virus as well as the stimulation of peroxynitrate. Formulas containing free forms of both L-arginine and Lysine are to be avoided.

If they were selling Arginine then I would be suspect but they seem to be straight information and suggest no brand that meets their definition of "properly prepared".  In fact they issue the need for exacting formula and protocol, then do little to give practical advice on how to tell or where to find it.

Maybe I have to do more reading on the site for the answer.  Does anyone have any solid insight on this?

[Rico]

Hawk,

They do say that the product should be on the market for ten years, if they would have a problem by then the FDA or someone would of jumped in....

I had mention in previous posts that I agree with this and to get a brand name, I stick behind xyience because of there research, more expensive, but I feel worth it and it is a blend, I bought some L-arginine at the super market, there brand to see if I could tell a difference, huge difference for me, the blend(complex) from xyience was much more superior....I think because it is a complex and the ornithine seems to give it a kick....the delivery system also is powder, but I can feel it work after a hour of taking it....

Like I was saying the bodybuilders ect have weeded out the poor products...word of mouth...I always ask what is the top seller for the last year when I go into the store, or I ask guys at the gym or the trainers....

I went on the xyience site and they have xsex now also with nox that they recommend taking together and you can take with NOXGC3.... it makes sense to take these together because they where made for synergy.... I would use these if I didn't have peyronies...but only if you are training hard....which I'm now again.... I have decided to use only these with the VED..... and I cycle off every six weeks for two weeks also, my choice...and one needs to increase his water intake in my opinion to 10 to 12 glasses vs. 8....

It also seems the top brands have a gluamine complex with the arginine....to me ornithine is a must to get the most effect....

Rico

[Hawk]

Rico my friend,

Remember who you are talking to.  I am WAY to analytical (and a lot of other names my wife calls me) to go  with statements like "what I use", "a top seller is", "it seems to have a kick", "body builders use", "_____ is superior", or "It is made for synergy".

I need hard facts supported with evidence.  We have talked so I know you know that I am not picking, we are just wired very differently in this regard.

you say

I stick behind xyience because of there research,

Exactly what is their research.  Where do I see an objective report on this research?

Specifically, what do you mean wen you say,

huge difference for me, the blend(complex) from xyience was much more superior.

That tells me nothing.  Exactly what does that mean?  What makes you conclude that it is superior?  Exactly what is in it or what is the full product name so I can look it up?

Does anyone know how one can tell if a product is "free form" instead of whatever the alternative to "free form" is?  It seems the content label would be specific, something like different tocopherols for vitamin E.

Who would one trust as to how long a product has been on the market and whether there have been FDA complaints?  (The FDA barely regulates supplements)

I have to scrutinize this site a bit more if I get time to see if it is possibly set up to redirect traffic to a specific brand.  I have family member that is in the midst of a medical crisis and will have to wait until I get time.

[George999]

Hello all,

I found this article interesting, especially in regards to the comments it makes about Arginine and Norvaline.  Although it is really focused on sexual performance enhancers in general, many of the points are applicable to Peyronies.  It fills in some interesting details on how certain supplements work and cause their effect.

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/mindandmuscle/magpage.php?artID=999340

- George

[ComeBacKid]

George999,

What do you mean by this comment from an earlier post on this thread:

"Here we are, all taking L-Arginine to get blood flow to our penises, only to find out that it is all being eaten up by our peyronies which is getting 'fattened' in the process.  O cruel world!"

Its funny you say that excercising can increase the bloodflow by 20% to the thighs and lower extremeties?

Yesterday I worked out hard for the first time in weeks, after I got done my penis seemed to hang fuller and bigger for awhile, today I'm going to do another run and lift some weights, my main goal though is to lose fat (specifically stomach fat) which will decrease androgen produced by my body and raise testosterone.

[George999]

ComeBackid,

I was really not trying to make a point in that comment, it was just intended as humor.  I know my humor is sometimes "off the wall", my apologies for that.

As for the exercises part, that wasn't me that said that, it was an article quoted by Rico.

- George

[ComeBacKid]

George999,

Forgive me, I got lost in the jungle of L Arginine posts, and earlier I thought that tim was stating it will make your peyronies worse possibly, so when I read your comment I thought you had found out some information that backed that up.  

[George999]

Finally found an actual legitimate study identifying L-Norvaline as an Arginase inhibitor.

http://ajpheart.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/274/1/H342

- George

[Hawk]

Sometimes I am more involved in trying to make the PDS function than I am in participating as a member.  Often I research my own facts with unrelenting determination.

Today when I am kind of beat and have other issues that make this more than I can muster energy for, I am struck by what a great forum the members have made.  Whether you pursue a certain course or not, this place is an education.  I am thankful others have the energy I am lacking today.  Tim's original post, others comments, George's and Rico's links, have contributed much to the subject of Arginine, erections, arginase, arginase inhibiting effects of L-Norvaline, and TGFs that would be difficult to find anywhere.

When I rebound, I think it is all worthy of a central topic in the Resource Library.  Just have to see if we can get reprint permission or if we have to link.  Links worry me because they often go inactive as sites change.

Thanks again to everyone.

[Tim468]

ComeBackid,

To get my point, rather than state it again, I suggest rereading my post down below by me to you. Again,the issue is an active lesion - one that is currently getting worse.

It is reasonable to believe that TGF Beta 1 levels would be higher during an active phase,than during a stable phase - since TGF is though to be the reason we get active! During THAT TIME I believe that supplemental arginine may be shunted preferentially towars proline, urea and collagen formation, and NOT towards production of NO.

So, you did read a post by me stating that I thought arginine may make Peyronies Disease worse, when it was in an active phase. the only data I have to back it up is tangential, and my desparate attempts to figure out why my Peyronies Disease is getting worse right now.

BTW - for two days, not extra arginine, and no extra or new findings. Just remember though,the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". It is "anecdotes".

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

Tim,

I did read your post and did understand you meant during the "active," phase.  My penis has that dull ache, not all the time, as I believe I may be re-entering the "active," phase again, personally I think the disease is always active, it just spreads so slowly that you can't always notice it.  My doctor wants to do verapamil injections, the data from our own PDS poll does not look good on those.  I'm going to see Dr. Mulhall I made an appointment, can't get me in for a month though, I will be getting an ultra sound to try and see whats going on and if I have calcifications or not.  Logically it seems one should try to get an ultra sound in the very beginning and get one per year, that we may be able to corraborate pain and spreading of the disease with proof.  However I'm not sure if the ultra sound will show plaque, I thought it is done to show calcification only.  Nonetheless it can't hurt to get more data!

ComeBackid

[Tim468]

ComeBackid - thanks for clarifying. You had said: "I thought that tim was stating it will make your peyronies worse possibly". I thought the "thought" was a statement of a lack of surety about what I had said..

And again, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". It is "anecdotes". We have a poll with a handful of participants. I believe that the jury is still out on verapamil and it's role in helping Peyronies Disease - but for those of us here it has not seemed to help much. Recall that there may be a selection bias here, though, against those in whom it (or anything) has worked.

Tim

[Fighter]

Man... you guys are really starting to confuse me??? I don't know what to take anymore? I have been take 2 grams of L-Arginine, 1 gram ALC, 800IU Vit-E, and 1 gram of Tribulus and I got to say my Peyronies Disease has been in check for about 6 months now. I hope it does not start to get active?? If it does are you saying stop the L-Arginine? WOW... I am getting confused.

[Tim468]

I am sorry if the discussion is confusing you. Sometimes in our desire to shed light on a subject, we make it less, not more, accessible to others.

I am talking about a biochemical pathway that leads to increased collagen production. For that to happen, one has to be actively inflamed. Otherwise, arginine should help.

If your Peyronies Disease got worse, and kept getting worse, while on arginine, I would consider stopping it. If it was getting better, I'd stay on it. If it was not changing, I would look at the possibility of getting treated with Pentox.

Tim

[Rico]

Fighter,

I think you are doing the right thing and seem to have your peyronies in check....you are into working out, which is good for over all health....plus you seem to have found supplements that are working for you.... I'm taking arginine also... I like the increase circulation it provides and the complex I'm taking Might help with wound healing also... and Inflammation.... some of the top urologist are prescribing arginine... arginine can also be produce through diet.....

I would like to say that maybe one should think about the word SUPPLEMENT... it does not mean to replace... it is to add to..... we have gotten lazy or the concept of fast food has gotten into are everyday life, take a pill, take another pill..... one is not going to take large amounts of arginine and cure peyronies.... to supplement your diet that should be full of fresh fruits and vegtables and nuts and fish and lean meats and omega three complex and Olive oil(a arginine and anti inflammation diet), with some arginine and wound healing supplements and exercise is what one I  would think should do, not over loading with one supplement, how can this be healthy....to say arginine is causing peyroines is like saying a healthy diet is causing peyronies??  Moderation in supplemation.... you body works in balance...

If one was going to take pentox...he might say...how about if I take OPC's instead...great for circulation...or what foods have arginine in them....what foods can cause a pde5 effective or herbs....how about my total body health, stress, mental.....

I think it is good to look into different things, but again to scream chicken little can make things confusing also, or to look for a scape goat due to the fact of frustration with this diesease....

Treating a illness also takes time....it takes sometimes years to get sick...and you get well one day at a time also....The VED takes time...Angus has been a great help with me from a mental stand point with the VED, take it slow....let it happen....do it everyday....light work out....

I'm personally focusing on over all health like you Fighter....look at how many underlying health conditions are surrounded by inflammation....my main concern is a diet and life style that controls this in my system....from dental care to heart health and good circulation..... I urge everyone to look into a complex omega three supplement, plus Olive oil and diet rich in nuts and fruits and vegtables and lots of exercise....they aren't going to come up with a pill to cure your peyronies...you have to shut down your inflammation in your body, increase your circulation and remold your plaque....Urologist are tying heart health and penis health together......

I do think we all have to be honest with ourselves also, if someone said, I can't change my diet, I'm going to eat fast foods(high for inflammation) and drink and smoke and not exercise...I'm always stress and can't control it....well then you have issues, maybe taking the pentox/arginine/viagra will control your issues and help keep the inflammation at bay.... maybe you can just say, I will eat fried food only three times a week, and cut out half of the sugar and white flour, these are all contributors of inflammation, high glycemic  diets....

Just like over taking arginine or over working the VED you can also over exercise and go over board with diet....it is about moderation and balance.... find your balance like Fighter has.... and if it isn't broke, don't fix it:)...

Rico

[George999]

Tim,

You know, I have to say, I am getting a little bit confused with this discussion at this point.  And it all seems to center around the term 'active phase'.  The classical definition of Peyronies seems to be 1) "Active Phase" (= Now being the best opportunity for  treatment, and 2) "Chronic or stable phase" ( = Get used to having it for the rest of your life).  In reality, my experience is that Peyronies tends to move in and out of "Active Phases".  It acts like a chameleon in a sense, at times just when it seems to have stabilized, it can suddenly become active and nasty.

Having said that, I also have some questions about your speculation that TGF-beta is an issue only in the active phase.  According to what has been posted here by you and others, 1) Pentox acts against Peyronies by blocking or inhibiting TGF-beta, and 2) Pentox has been shown to be effective even the case of calcifications (hardly a symptom of the "active phase"), which leads me to believe that TGF-beta may be a factor in the "stable phase" as well, if you follow the logic.  Let me know if I am overlooking something here.

So my next point is that I feel that TGF-beta/Arginase issues are rather important in potentially getting a handle on this disease.  In other words, you really were the one who has been pushing around this TGF-beta issue and I think you have been really on to something here even though it was only recently that you made the Arginine connection.  Since the body naturally receives and metabolizes Arginine from food, TGF-beta/Arginase is an issue whether or not one is taking an Arginine supplement, although taking an Arginine supplement might arguably aggravate the problem, even without Arginine supplements, the problem is still there, and very likely, it makes no difference whether the disease is in the "active" or "stable" phase.

So at this point in my own situation, I have gotten my doc to change my BP med to a med that is a known TGF-b inhibitor, I am cramming down sunflower seeds, and I am planning to take an Arginine supp with L-Norvaline.  I am also taking some other things which I suspect may have some TGF-b or Arginase connection.  One would be cocoa which contains lots of theophyline.  Cocoa is known to be a natural tonic to endothelial tissue, as yet the effect is not completely known.  It is known to be a broad spectrum PDE blocker but that alone does not account for its effectiveness.  I really wonder if there is not some TGF-b/Arginase connection.  So I am taking cocoa as well.  Also a host of anti-inflammatory stuff since I suspect that low level chronic inflammation also plays a role in TGF-b/Arginase.  It may well be that for anyone with a severe problem, the answer is Pentox or Pentox like drugs, however it would be interesting to know what could be achieved with a Pentox/Norvaline type combination, in other words attacking both points in the chain simultaneously, along with knocking away at inflammation.

Many Arginine supps contain L-Lysine (which just happens to be a known mild broad spectrum Arginase inhibitor), and L-Ornathine (which is now thought to have a role in "down-regulating" Arginase by causing an oversupply of Ornathine in the body.  So perhaps the bodybuilding industry has been on to this problem for a long time without really knowing the details.


- George

[jess99504]

Hey all I've been away for a while, but been lurking. This is probably a stupid thing to do but...
I had some extra cash to throw away, so I ordered some pyrotabs, I've had Peyronies Disease for so long that I thought why not. I mean what can it hurt. I've gone through damn near everything else, and then some... LOL... They haven't arrived yet, I'll let all know it something happens.

I read about the VIP massage, sounds like fun. I was told  years ago to massage Vit E on it.. will I did, the only problem with that is it felt way too GOOD!!!

[Tim468]

George,

I agree completely with what you are saying about the role of TGF in "stable" disease - if TGF were not active during 'stable" disease, then why might pentox help someone with stable disease??

I think for me it boils down to trying very hard to understand why I am getting worse so much more dramatically than I ever did in the past. I am not at all convinced it is the arginine, but I am trying to simplify a bit right now to see what happens to ME right now - again this is not "data, it is just me.

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

Tim,

You are desperate man looking for answers like myself, but my question is if the L arginine could possibly make ones peyronies worse, why is Dr. Levine recomending it with the viagra, pentox protocol?  Can this protocol be effective without l arginine?  

"Recall that there may be a selection bias here, though, against those in whom it (or anything) has worked."

Tim,  that is the same argument PDLabs used when they said all the people that used Topical verapamil with success moved on.... the only problem was that the majority of the people I talked to had been on the forum before they started Topical verapamil, I know myself, zigwyth, J, and Fighter just to name a few, I know its easy to jump to conclusions here without true "data," but we may never get that, only anecdotes. They could be right as well.  

A lot of the guys that had no results from the injections were on the BTC long before they got the injections.  I think right now common sense is telling me the risks of injections outweigh the possible benefits, it would be one thing if our poll showed that many people got the injections and stayed the same, but with a handfull of people getting worse after injections this is the part that concerns me the most.  I think ok what will happen if a doctor takes a needle and pierces into the penis and accidently goes through my very thin plaque and into the corpus cavernosa?  Will it bleed inside?  Will more scar tissue form?  I'm just not ready for the injections, to me it seems like the pentox and VED are much more safer and probably won't make things worse, even if they don't help, so I go for them over the injections.  Are you considering the injections?

On another note, it might be good for hawk to add his two sense here, I remember him telling me how injections gave him peyronies?  I can't remember exactly but it was a negative effect if I remember correctly and just from ED injection treatment recomended by Dr. Mulhall...

[Hawk]

I understand Tim's point, especially since he made it a point to say there may be a selection bias.  He is right, there may be one,  but I have considered this at length and I do not believe there is one.  We have no accounts of people who were active posters dropping into inactivity all of a sudden on any forum.  The cases we have of active people going inactive is that they begin to taper off and post less frequently.  They never mention that their condition was significantly improved.  In fact they often state their reason for become less active on the forum.  So while there could be a selection bias, meaning people that got better are not here to take the survey, there is no evidence in parting statements that supports that possibility.  In fact the evididence suggests the opposite.  It is highly unlikely that only those that don't post get better and leave with out a word.  Improvement would likely be consistant.  Any improvement among the silent group should be representative of improvement in the outspoken group.  

I know if Tim, Rico, ComeBackid, Liam, or the many others posting here improved, whether spontaneously or in conjunction with a treatment, we would hear about it.

[Tim468]

The issue is whether those who got better with a stab in the dark (so to speak) like VI, would ever come here at all. I would argue that a subset of patients that got better would be less inclined to keep searching for help online. That could really weed out a lot of people - and when we are talking about 7-9 people taking a survey (or it may be more now), our "data" is quite suspect.

Not to say I think it isn't correct, however...

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

Another point I've considered in regards to verapamil injections has been could the needle itself be the cause of improvment for those who do see it from verapamil injections?  I'm not sure what the data is on the Lariche technique from europe but from what I remember reading it seemed to show good results, even better ones that verapamil injections.  So just the needle itself could be helping break up the plaque, although I believe the needle is of a different kind.  Of course one could always question the integrity of those studies just like PDLab's study and Physion's study...  Here is the data straight out of our own Peyronies Disease Resource Library...

"Materials and methods:  Ten patients with a mean age of 58 years (range 32-82 years) were operated for Peyronie's disease between January 2002 and January 2004. They all presented with painless penile curvature on erection, but severe discomfort or impossibility of sexual intercourse. The patients were reviewed at 1 and 3 months. The results were assessed in terms of the degree of penile straightening and resumption of sexual activity."

"Results: Three patients obtained complete cure. Two patients gained sufficient penile straightening to allow sexual intercourse and recovery was insufficient to allow sexual intercourse for 3 patients, but the result was improved after a second or even a third attempt. The last two patients were classified as treatment failures and were treated by penile prosthesis in one case and by the Nesbit technique in the other case. The results observed at 1 month persisted at 3 months."

So by sticking the needle into the plaque, 3 people were totally cured, 2 got straighter, and 3 didn't get better, but improved after a second and third attempt, while 2 were failures.  

What is a failure, no response, or the procedure made them worse?!

If this data is true and ethical it seems like this procedure does more good than harm, especially if the 2 failures didn't get any worse and stayed the same, rather than they got worse cause of the procedure.

Why isn't the top urologist in peyronies Dr. Mulhall(yes i know this is debatable) interested in this procedure or learning it?  

[Tim468]

ComeBackid,

Please think through the physiology here. Again, a protocol that includes Pentox is going to reduce TGF and hence reduce argenase levels. THAT is why he prescribes them all together. In the presence of Pentox, arginine should help, because it (the pentox) will reduce TGF levels. If TGF levels are low already (because the wave of acute inflammation has happened), then maybe arginine without pentox is OK. Maybe this is all wild speculation...

Here is an article by Tom Lue about TGF levels in peyronies disease placques - in a word, he found it in abundance. He also looked for TGF beta 2 (pro-collagen formation) and TGF Beta 3 (anti-collagen formation) and found only fivve patients with TGF Beta 3 present, where as most (26/30) had TGF Beta 1 present. What we are calling "active" or "stable" disease is not commented upon, but I suspect they were clinically stable before surgery because surgeons like to wait til then to operate. This came out in 1997.

A second article I found suggests that arginine alone should help (at least it helps rats). In that study both  viagra and arginine, as well as pentox all worked independently to reduce placque in rts.

This suggests to me that arginine may be irrelevant, or I may be right, and it is not helpful until the TGF is turned off. In either event, I think I need to get going with the Pentox.

Tim


http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2826221

Transforming growth factor-Beta; (TGF-Beta1) has been implicated in many chronic fibrotic conditions such as pulmonary and hepatic fibrosis. We postulated that TGF-Beta1 may play a role in the pathogenesis of Peyronie's disease. Materials and Methods: Tissues from the tunica albuginea of 30 Peyronie's disease patients (study group) and from 6 patients without Peyronie's disease, who had undergone penile prosthesis surgery for organic impotence (control group), were subjected to histological examination using Hart and trichrome stains and Western blotting for the detection of TGF-Beta1 protein expression. Results: The results of these experiments demonstrate that all tissue from Peyronie's disease patients showed a variety of histological changes of the tunica, ranging from chronic inflammatory cellular infiltration to complete calcification and ossification of the tissues. The most prominent changes observed in the majority of patients were focal or diffused elastosis, fenestration and disorganization of the collagen bundles. TGF-Beta1 protein expression was detected in 26 patients (86%), while only 7 (23%) and 5 (17%) patients showed TGF-Beta2 and TGF-Beta3 protein expression, respectively. One patient in the control group showed fibrosis of the tunica albuginea and protein expression of TGF-Beta1 and TGF-Beta2. This patient had undergone surgery for the revision of his prosthesis twice. Five patients from the control group showed normal histological patterns of the tunica albuginea and no protein expression for TGF-Beta1, TGF-Beta2 and TGF-Beta3. Conclusions: TGF-Betal protein expression is significantly associated with Peyronie's disease, which may provide a new insight and the potential for the prevention and treatment of this disease.

Second article

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=15541687

Inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) is expressed in both the fibrotic plaque of Peyronie's disease (Peyronies Disease) in the human, and in the Peyronies Disease-like plaque elicited by injection of TGF-Beta1 into the penile tunica albuginea (TA) of the rat. Long-term inhibition of iNOS activity, presumably by blocking nitric oxide (NO)- and cGMP-mediated effects triggered by iNOS expression, exacerbates tissue fibrosis through an increase in: (a) collagen synthesis, (b) levels of reactive oxygen species (ROS), and (c) the differentiation of fibroblasts into myofibroblasts. We have now investigated whether: (a) phosphodiesterase (PDE) isoforms, that regulate the interplay of cGMP and cAMP pathways, are expressed in both the human and rat TA; and (b) L-arginine, that stimulates NOS activity and hence NO synthesis, and PDE inhibitors, that increase the levels of cGMP and/or cAMP, can inhibit collagen synthesis and induce fibroblast/myofibroblast apoptosis, thus acting as antifibrotic agents. We have found by immunohistochemistry, RT/ PCR, and Western blot that PDE5A-3 and PDE4A, B, and D variants are indeed expressed in human and rat normal TA and Peyronies Disease plaque tissue, as well as in their respective fibroblast cultures. As expected, in the Peyronies Disease fibroblast cultures, pentoxifylline (non-specific cAMP-PDE inhibitor) increased cAMP levels without affecting cGMP levels, whereas sildenafil (PDE5A inhibitor) raised cGMP levels. Both agents and L-arginine reduced the expression of collagen I (but not collagen III) and the myofibroblast marker, alpha-smooth muscle actin, as determined by immunocytochemistry and quantitative image analysis. These effects were mimicked by incubation with 8-Br-cGMP, which in addition increased apoptosis, as measured by TUNEL. When L-arginine (2.25g/kg/day), pentoxifylline (10mg/kg/day), or sildenafil (10mg/kg/day) was given individually in the drinking water for 45 days to rats with a Peyronies Disease-like plaque induced by TGF-Beta1, each treatment resulted in a 80-95% reduction in both plaque size and in the collagen/fibroblast ratio, as determined by Masson trichrome staining. Both sildenafil and pentoxiphylline stimulated fibroblast apoptosis within the TA. Our results support the hypothesis that the increase in NO and/or cGMP/cAMP levels by long-term administration of nitrergic agents or inhibitors of PDE, may be effective in reversing the fibrosis of Peyronies Disease, and more speculatively, other fibrotic conditions.

[George999]

Please guys, remember when we talk about Arginine, we are not just talking about the bad things that could happen.  Arginine is after all a powerful substrate for nitric oxide and with Pentox knocking out the TGF-beta -> Arginase pathway, Arginine is left with a wide open shot at generating healthful doses of nitric oxide.  And thats the kind of synergy we want to encourage.  Pentox to knock out the TGF-beta and its nasty children, Viagra to knock out PDE-5 and its nitric oxide inhibiting effects, and THEN we want to stuff down the Arginine and fire up the nitric oxide furnace to melt away the lesions.  Thats the strategy that I see happening here.

[Hawk]

Many Arginine supps contain L-Lysine (which just happens to be a known mild broad spectrum Arginase inhibitor), and L-Ornathine (which is now thought to have a role in "down-regulating" Arginase by causing an oversupply of Ornathine in the body.  So perhaps the bodybuilding industry has been on to this problem for a long time without really knowing the details.

on the link http://www.arginineresearch.com/L-Arginine.htm near the bottom, we find the following quote

Formulas containing free forms of both L-arginine and Lysine are to be avoided.

Can you explain this "free form" mystery to me?  and in your opinion, is this 2nd quote from the website saying not to take arginine and lysine together or simply to avoid free forms?

Lysine and Vitamin C are known components in the production of collagen.

[ComeBacKid]

Tim and George,

Thanks for the laymans explanation I got the L Arginine and Pentox part, now onto the viagra...  

How important is the viagra in the combo to knock out that PDE-5 , I only ask this cause I can't afford viagra, so is there anything I can use to replace it?  I thought red korean ginseng or Goat Weed are PDE-5 Inhibitors?  I thought about buying viagra from oversees but safety is a concern and so I'd like to mirror this protocol as much as possible with a PDE-5 Inhibitor.  Good explanation though I got it now.  I'm taking a Centrum vitamin Daily, I hope this does not throw off or interfere with the effects on this protocol, it has a lot of vitamin C in it.

ComeBackid

[Tim468]

I know it can be hard to keep straight (a term I try to avoid on this forum!). HGW is the "Viagra-like" medicine. Ginseng helps prevent "detumesence" through a mechanism like that of trazadone.

Since I have posted this information at least 4 times, it might help to cut and paste it into a personal file called "How they all work" or something to refer to when one forgets.

Tim

[George999]

ComeBackid,

In several of my previous posts I have referred to Korean Red Ginseng as a "PDE-5 inhibitor".  I was incorrect and appologize for any confusion that may have caused.  Tim is correct.  Korean Red Ginseng IS NOT a PDE-5 inhibitor.  The study on KRG states that "The administration of Korean red ginseng has shown to have superior effects compared to the placebo or trazodone."  Thus the very study that defines the role of KRG compares it to trazadone and NOT Viagra.  On the other hand, Horny Goat Weed contains Icariin.  From what I have read, about ten 500mg capsules of Horny Goat Weed with the standard 10% (50mg) of Icariin) equate to one low potency dose of Viagra in terms of PDE-5 inhibiting effectiveness.  If I were you, I would pay the money to get a consultation from a trained herbal specialist in terms of how to take HGW for maximum effectiveness and safety.  That would be my direct advice if you are considering it for a drop in replacement for Viagra.

- George

[George999]

I think at this point I am a bit confused myself about wogonin.

1) There are studies indicating that wogonin is helpful for peyronies.

2) Wogonin has been shown to be an iNOS inhibitor, iNOS is associated with inflammation, so this should be a good thing.

3) BUT, iNOS has actually been shown to be an effective agent in alleviating peyronies. (According to a study just referenced by Tim a few posts ago.)

So at this point, I am quiting the Skullcap for a while until someone gets this further sorted out.  Instead I am concentrating on the HGW, Vitamin C, Sunflower Seed approach, going mainly after PDE-5, inflammation, and Arginase, along with some help from Cozaar on the TGF-b front.  I have also backed off a bit on the aloe vera dropping back to one per day.

- George

- George

[George999]

There have been a trickle of posts expressing concern over anything that supports collagen production in the body.  Personally, I want to again state that the reason I am using collagen building supplements is that I veiw collagen metabolism as a NORMAL function of the body.  The problem to me is the TGF-beta, inflammation, and PDE-5 channels, not the collagen production itself.  But thats just my opinion and experience.  For some weeks, I have been taking large amounts of C and Lysine and have noted no worsening of my Peyronies.  So my advice is, if the very idea of feeding collagen bothers you, by all means avoid anything that feeds collagen production.  Otherwise, I see no reason to experiment and see what works and what doesn't.  But my position remains, it is NOT collagen that is the problem, it is the imballance that causes collagen to be misused that is the problem, and that is what I want to target.

- George

[Tim468]

I think the roles of the "NOS's" (inducible Nitric Oxide Synthase (iNOS), and edogenous Nitric Oxide Synthase (eNOS)) are often working at opposite ends of the inflammatory spectrum. Thus, it can be quite confusing. For instance, naturally exhaled NO is a marker of lung inflammation in severe asthma, and yet we sometimes give inhaled NO to make asthma better!

Understanding the role of NO is very complicated. That it is an important molecule is underscored by the awarding of the Nobel for it's discovery and elucidation of action. It is a very simple molecule (a Nitrogen atom bound to an Oxygen molecule) but it plays important roles in nearly ALL biological systems, including wound repair.

It is actually a GAS that is very shortlived and penetrates through cell membranes to affect nearby cellular processes. Thus, the location of the production of NO has an effect in what it does to us.

Wogonin may be of value in suppressing iNOS and thus allowing eNOS to work better. However,m it is not at all known - this is my speculation. I know of no clinical data - only cell culture studies of wogonin. I might take wogonin or Chinese Baikal skullcap if I had access to it, but for now I am passing on it.

Tim

[ComeBacKid]

George,

Yes I was getting confused on the Red Korean Ginseng being a PDE 5 INhibitor, thanks for the clarification.  Someone down the chain as well stated that trazodone is a PDE 5 Inhibitor, I don't think it was you but someone else.  After looking this up this appears to be incorrect as well.  

[ComeBacKid]

ComeBackid,

I don't think anyone did state that ginseng was a PDE5 inhibitor.  I think you have mixed this up several times since Tim first brought it up.

ComeBackid,

In several of my previous posts I have referred to Korean Red Ginseng as a "PDE-5 inhibitor".  I was incorrect and appologize for any confusion that may have caused.

Hawk,

There was different information going around and it was getting confusing, everything is clear now.

ComeBackid

[redfish]

Has anybody read "The Naturopathic Approaches to Peyronie's Disease" by William Brodi the Skeptical Nutritionist and tried the suggestions?

[George999]

Redfish,

I don't mean to be rude, but may I ask what exactly the purpose of your post is?  There are scores of "solutions" for Peyronies on the web and elsewhere and most of them are frauds.  We are all here because we have Peyronies and we are interested in sharing information and searching together for a solution.  Most of us, myself at least, are not interested in solicitations to buy books or any other form of someone's unproven (meaning legitimate research) theories about Peyronies Disease.  If you have Peyronies disease and have found help from this author and his book, please share. On the other hand if you have Peyronies and are wondering whether this book would be useful, I for one would suggest that any really useful information is readily available on this forum, on on the internet itself. Most people trying to sell medical 'information' (alternative therapies and such) are con artists.  On the other hand, if you don't have Peyronies Disease and are here doing soft spamming for the book, you are in the wrong place.

[Tim468]

Hmmm...

George, I didn't see that post as spam - could be I guess. I recall the book is mentioned on the PDI website -  yup, the very one where you got your vitamin E from.

I tend to not want to pay money to get synthesized generalities. I would rather get information. I cannot vouch for the quality of this book, it seemed pretty hokey to me (just my own two cents worth).

Tim

[redfish]

I am not trying to sell anything just trying to find an answer like everybody else.  I bought and downloaded the book last night and I have read about halfway through.  Everything is supported with research.  I was just interested if anybody had tried any of the suggestions.  His explanations are intelligent and well supported.  I have already ordered some of the suggested products.  I will report back with any progress.

[George999]

Redfish,

Thanks so much for the explanation.  It makes things a lot clearer.  And a warm welcome to this forum from myself and I'm sure everyone else here.  I myself, as Tim noted, buy from PDI and have found that they have a lot of good info on their site as well as good pricing on their products.  But I really get suspicious about people selling information products because so many of them are either useless or simply repackaging of whats already available for free.   If repackaged information is sold at a reasonable price, I have no problem with that at all, but a lot of stuff out there is a rip off.  I was unaware when you posted that you had gotten your book from PDI.  Although I have some philosophical differences with them, I generally consider them to be pretty reputable and straight up as the saying goes.  So I encourage you to look over these forum threads and make use of the wealth of information here on this site and by all means share the good stuff you are learning from your book.  If you find it helpful and worth the money, let us know and I'm sure others lurking around here will be interesting in obtaining it.

Sincerely,

George

[Hawk]

Redfish,

Welcome to the forum and a salute for being an active poster and contributor by asking questions and making comments.

By way of a brief introduction I am a skeptic by nature (or nurture).  I assume everything in life is not true until the weight of evidence convinces me otherwise.  http://www.peyroniessociety.org/evaluating.htm  

I am interested in the authors credentials.  Thought credentials are not everything, they make a good starting reference point.  

In addition to a skeptic on the science, I have a philosophical issue I wrestle with.  I certainly have not formed a solid opinion but my current thoughts are; that unless he has conducted trials and first hand research, or at least invested money and time getting a specialized degree that enabled him to form opinions and conclusions that other intelligent people cannot form, he is out of line selling the information.  That would be much like us charging for the information on our forum.  If we borrow research from others, evaluate the conflicting evidence, form conclusions, survey our member's first hand results,  and stumble across a successful trend, we invite the world to come and get whatever use they can from it.  In fact, we actually spend our own time and money to provide them with the opportunity.  It is just who we are and what we do.

I could be wrong, but I am willing to bet real money that there is information on this forum, even on this thread, that surpasses information found in that book.  It is provided by men of experience, men of intelligence, educated men.  if you know anyone that is interested, tell them they can read it, comment on it, and ask questions for free.

[Tim468]

Hawk,

I respectfully disagree - sort of. I share a certain disdain for selling a synthesis of information easily found elsewhere for free. However, if a person has an ability to make something easy to understand, and thus more accessible to others, then that can have great value. That is why we have teachers in schools instead of simply piling up the original reseaerch papers and asking the students to read it all up and figure it out.

What I am much more concerned about is someone who might make unsubstantiated claims and present them as facts. I am also leery of documents which cannot be reviewed somehow before buying them. A book in a bookstore can be extensively browsed befor purchase. When I have to buy something without the ability to first somehow judge it's quality, my first assumption is that it is going to be sub-par. That may not be "fair", but it has served me well over the years.

PS - Last night I was surfing the tv channels and saw an infommercial for a sexual enhancer that seemed from the testimonials to solve every single problem that a man could face, if you know what I mean... except, I didn't know what they meant. They were so tangential in their wording that it was impossible to tell WHAT exact problems had been fixed... but one could infer that premature ejaculation, flagging erectile function, and one's level of desire itself, could all be enhanced. Funny - i watched for over ten minutes waiting for even a glimmer of what the ingredients were... Nope - never came.

This is how I look at online only books that are "not available in a bookstore!" Ithink there is usualy a reson the book was not published, just like I think there is a reason the guy on tv last night did not want to tell us what they were selling.

Tim