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Author Topic: The Implant Wars - PRO Vs Con :) moved from the Wake Forest Topic  (Read 3426 times)

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Hawk

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I can tell you this.  If I were 20 years old and I had to choose between an implant or erectile dysfunction and no intercourse and a penis that got smaller every year, I would choose an implant and have sex on demand for a dozen years.

If I were 20 years old and had to choose between an implant or penile injections and fibrosis I would choose an implant.

If I were 20 years old and had to choose between an implant and a pumping up with a VED and putting a band on my dick so I could have 30 minutes of sex, I would choose an implant

Jack, which one of those other solutions do you think is better than an implant for a 20-year-old ???

This topic may be a little hard to follow because it was split off from another topic in Developmental Treatments about Wake Forest research on tissue regeneration.  I made the comment " If you suffer from erectile dysfunction why not consider an implant"  What followed is me and a few others going far off topic so I splint most of our posts and moved them here.
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Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 68 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

Alibaba

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2018, 10:53:04 PM »

I have to agree with Hawk. Dealt with this $#it since I was 39 years old. No method worked consistently. Started with Muse, then Viagra, then daily Cialis, piercing, foreskin restoration attempt, PT141, then the vacuum pump,( wore out many, sometimes 3 a year), then Levitra, then tens shock treatments, accupuncture, stem cell injections,  then trimix injections, then  Cialis plus injections, then Cialis+Injections_spiked with Viagra or Levitra AND the vacuum pump.  It made an often unreliable 20 years. My wife would sit down at the computer and play video games waiting on me to get my dick up and ready. It finally became such a chore that most of the time she was completely out of the mood by the time I finally managed to get it ready to go.  I could have built another house in the time and money I spent on my dick over those 20 years trying to get it to work. Very few things I've not tried and most I tried for a least a year, some several.  The quick pay by the pill methods work for a little while but the erectile dysfunction progressively gets worse. You never wake up and find your dick is suddenly well.
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Jack1909

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2018, 01:38:27 AM »

It’s pretty evident that this forum got terribly implant oriented and it couldn’t be any different: it’s an American forum. If all other developed countries combined have less implant surgeries volumes than America alone it must mean something. The fact is you, American people, go straight out to the point like if there wasnt any other variable in every action and apply this principle to every aspect of life (what about the "collateral damages" term you come up with any time you got yourselves involved in a war...).
Many people haven’t just Erectile Dysfunction..they have combined hurdles to deal with..I have a big neuropathy and many have pain as well..do you think implant is the best option here?? Undergoing such an invasive procedure when you are getting through this..some would call it insane.
Terlecki told me "just have a graft procedure and see what happens, worst case scenario you end up the same"....if this doesn’t sum up what I said earlier..

I see many better options than having an implant and one of these could event be being sexless..as I am, since birth, and I’m 28..life sucks but implant more. That doesn’t mean I won’t  end up wearing on of these infernal tools...implant would suck anyway.

Hawk ..If you were 20 years old and got thought what I had to...well, you are talking about nothing. Absolutely nothing. You don’t know what you would have done as you didn’t experience it..having this at 20 is a far cry than having it at 40 and 60. You had many years of of sex behind you when it all started, most of the young dealing with this crap don’t: don’t you think this has got any relevance??

 
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suicidecomingsoon

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2018, 04:56:14 AM »

What a nonsense, I prefer an implant and be able to have sex that never have sex and spend my whole life like that and I am also young.
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Jack1909

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2018, 05:07:30 AM »



Go for it and change your nickname so..if you have just Erectile Dysfunction, go for it. Unfortunately this nonsense talking got far more than this..
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Hawk

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2018, 01:15:16 PM »

Jack, I am not suggesting you should not just go sexless.  If you can live with that and be at least content then I recommend that.   That is the only argument you made against an implant that makes any sense. There is no point in an implant unless you place a very high value on intercourse.  You can have some other forms of sex without an erection. 

I was at fault because I assumed since you were on the forum that you were looking for a solution that would give you very satisfying intercourse.  The implant is the only thing that does that as often and for as long as you want.  As far as having other issues, I understand that as well.  I have complex family issues, I am on my 3rd battle with cancer, but I still realize my implant was the best decision I ever made.  My worst decision was putting it off for so long and losing 1 1/2" while I waited.

I see that an implant does not make sense for you.

PS: I regret that you do not like American culture or attitudes but this is an international forum.   If you want to keep using it make sure you read the rule about political statements and follow it. You should also realize that the most comprehensive journal on implants was written by a guy who lives in Indonesia. I was largely convinced to get an implant by a non-American and I thank him.
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Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 68 yrs old
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Werther

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2018, 02:23:47 PM »

If I were 20 years old and I had to choose...

As a matter of fact, you weren't when you first experienced Erectile Dysfunction. You talk this way assuming what you'd do if you were in these shoes, but things could have been a lot different if you actually had worn them. I too could tell a paraplegic guy to stop whining because of its condition and enjoy his life nonetheless like thousands of others like him do, but it's easier for me to speak like this, because I'm not the one who's dealing with this kind of crap and maybe I wouldn't think and talk like this if I were the one to be paraplegic. That's why I rather prefer to abstain from judging others, especially if I know nothing about what they might experience in that particular condition which I've never been in.

I think you should all understand that not everybody is comfortable with the idea of getting two plastic tubes inside a dick and it's pretty obvious that younger people with less sexual experience and - most probably - without a stable partner are much less prone to such a solution.

By the way I think we all went a lot off topic here.

I'd like us to focus on what we should do with these guys at WFIRM. Let's solicit them. Sign up petitions or whatever (look at what was suggested by the user "Sleepless" here: Raising awareness on social media. - Peyronies Society Forums). It's F~
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Hawk

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2018, 03:00:12 PM »

As a matter of fact, you weren't when you first experienced erectile dysfunction. You talk this way assuming what you'd do if you were in these shoes, but things could have been a lot different if you actually had worn them. I too could tell a paraplegic guy to stop whining because of its condition and enjoy his life .....

You clearly  did not read the posts.

1. I did not tell him to stop whining. 

2.  I did not tell him to get an implant.  I told him that no other solution would fix his erectile dysfunction.  That is an unarguably true statement.

I frankly don't care who is or is not comfortable with an implant.  I don't sell them so if every erectile dysfunction sufferer in the world decides to go sexless it is fine with me.  I am just stating the obvious.  Your penis is not like a fine wine.  It does not get better sitting on the shelf with age.  It gets smaller and fibrotic.  Injections carry a similarly high risk with clear inconvenience.  Oral meds are about the most expensive choice and seldom work after a few years not to mention their inconsistency and side-effects.  I have done them all and it was my mistake.

After he explained he did not mind living a sexless life I conceded the argument that an implant probably was not the best choice for him or others that feel that way.
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Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 68 yrs old
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Werther

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2018, 04:59:57 PM »

Relax dude. You're clearly hypersensitive and permalose (look at your other post replying to mine that was made months ago in another thread where you stated that you had to laugh at what I said). You're putting in my mouth words that I didn't spoke: I didn't say that you suggested Jack to get an implant or stop whining, I only stated that your way of thinking is related to how you are now and your personal situation so that maybe you would have thought different if you had Erectile Dysfunction problems when you were in your 20s and in a total different context. Period. There's no need to defend yourself and your choice to get an implant since I didn't accuse neither of them in the first place. You can keep your precious tool and I don't care a single bit about it. I'm not setting up any war against implants, but it looks like you're doing it against the ones who don't want to get implanted. Lucky thing that this forum, based on your words, should be an alternative to FT, where people can disagree with what's being said by admin without getting silenced...

You maybe didn't get the fact that everybody dealing with Erectile Dysfunction for awhile know perfectly that these devices are the only permanent solution that official medicine can offer as of today. Nonetheless nobody is forced to accept what's avalaible at the moment and that's why we're talking about a developmental procedure in this thread that could maybe represent a great alternative to prosthesises. I don't think that Jack prefers a sexless life instead of an implant; he'd prefer a better solution to the problem. Ask him directly if you're arguing this point.

Instead of flaming over nothing, you could have shared your opinion on what I've asked in my previous post with regards to possibile steps we could all take to make this trial progress further and quickier. But it looks like that you prefer to keep going OT and make fun of whoever don't share your decision about getting implanted. So mature.


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Hawk

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2018, 05:16:10 PM »

Trust me, I have been here for 15 years.  If you wait on a new development of erectile dysfunction solutions you will spend at least the next one or two decades without intercourse.  Those are the facts. 

Tissue engineering and organ regeneration at best will be available to in well over a decade.  At worst, it will not work.  It does not even fit in a discussion of options because it is not an option. It is a distant hope and dream.

We can discuss other threads on those threads.  I put no words in your mouth you did not say.  It is a quote and it did not make me mad or touchy.  It genuinely made me chuckle.
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Jack1909

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2018, 03:40:01 AM »

So if you don’t believe in any of the future treatments..just don’t post in here. Young people here are trying to get together in order to get around the obstacles that are preventing us from reaching what it’s still a possibility.

Dont you think is logically, if not medically, correct to me exploring every single option given the fact most of my penis is working and just 2cm of it is not. Is that good breaking it apart wearing an implant when it’s still have most of its integrity?? Do you think we are expecting to have the whole organ replaced? I’m just looking into a graft a procedure when the graft is autologous erectile tissue...does is sound so absurd if compared to what we read on news everyday?
Do you think is correct and fair to get a guy who has underwent 3 surgeries the perspective to have a procedure that implies revisions over years??
Have you ever thought about psychological hurdles related to sexuality and genital surgeries?? Do you think for me and for many others slipped into this hell so young would be simple to handle an implant? I have never had a sexual stability before getting sick (severe congenital curvature) and I’m not the only one....you cannot just dismiss us this way. If you had just Erectile Dysfunction you don’t really know what are you taliking about..and you have been extremely lucky.

There wasn’t any politics in my comment, I was just trying to say that you are not alone in this world even if most of the time you American think there’s nothing beyond the oceans you are wrapped into. And this goes for medicine as well...and for the approach to it. I’m not offending and I’m not talking about politics.
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Hawk

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2018, 11:08:51 AM »

Jack,

I pay for this forum.  I created it, built it, and advanced it to by far, the largest Peyronies Disease forum in the world. Since you are not driving this bus, excuse me if I ignore you telling me where on the forum I should post.  :) ;D :) ;D

You can explore any option you like but I can also correct any misconception that the 30 year experiments such as Wake Forest is going to happen before another decade.  I also correct misinformation that an implant replaces any tissue in your penis.  Not one cell of tissue is removed.  A lining is placed in the cavernous chambers so they fill with saline rather than blood.  Your glans and spongiosum can still get naturally erect and many men that did not have total Erectile Dysfunction still get semi natural erections in their cavernosa.  I am sorry if those facts annoy you or if Americans annoy you.  It must be frustrating to be dependant on such annoying people.  ;)
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Jack1909

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2018, 04:23:09 PM »

How much time before implant commercials appearing on the top/bottom of the page lol?? I’ve never said any of the things you are correcting...

I thought the implant oriented forum had another name..

Sorry but there is not point in hitting back at what you are saying, I won’t answer anymore.

Senior members of the forum starting out of the blue a massive crusade on implants...what a mystery   :o  ???
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Hawk

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2018, 04:57:34 PM »

How much time before implant commercials appearing on the top/bottom of the page lol??

Senior members of the forum starting out of the blue a massive crusade on implants...what a mystery   :o  ???


It is no mystery at all.  I have run this site and one before this for 15 years.  My history is posted.  I tried and advocated for every treatment that did me any good.  Since I have poured hundreds of dollars and thousands of hours in this site without accepting one cent in a donation, contributions from members, or advertising, I feel a passion and a responsibility to share what I have learned in 15 years trying most treatments for first Peyronies Disease then erectile dysfunction, and what I have learned from reading the better half of 100,000 posts on this site alone.

I was a strong advocate of traction for size preservation and deformity correction.  I was somewhat an advocate for VED.  Finally, as I saw every bizarre combination let me down I began to look again at implants.  I was sick of using 100 mg Viagra plus 3000 mg of L-Arginine with a VED with two rings and sometimes a Trazadone thrown in for good measure.  Though interested by Jackp's implant I was nervous about size loss and a limp glans.  My other failures convinced me I had nothing to lose.  I found the best surgeon I could find through research and took a leap of faith.  Three weeks later I had confirmed to me what a total fool I had been for fighting trench hand to hand warfare for 15 damned years when I probably could have spared myself a lot of heartache, money, hours in traction, and saved at least an inch of my dick.

I had two choices when I learned that.  I could either leave and let everyone wonder how it turned out and let them stumble down the same dark path I stumbled down or I could turn around and shine a light on the path I had traveled. Being I cared enough, in the beginning, to invest my time and money to build this site for you and others, what would you think I would likely choose?  I owe a lot to the brothers and sisters on this site and to all the moderators and administrators that have helped me for years without a single cent of pay.  They have never received any reimbursement of any kind except the satisfaction of compassionately helping others in the midst of their own issues.

My payoff over the years has been the personal and public messages of men who have told me this site did nothing less than save their very lives or save their marriages.  It does not take much more than one or two of those,(and there have been many) to make up for the few jackasses that do nothing but take and yet b!+ch the whole time they are doing it. 
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Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

TonySa

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2018, 07:27:39 PM »

Wow, sorry to just now weigh in.  I was mostly ignoring this thread as I don’t see any treatment that will come out of wake forest any time soon for the public.  Jack, I’m not sure if you follow all of Hawk’s post-but he’s quite clear an implant is an option only after having failed traditional treatment (oral meds).  VED may be an option for some and Injectable meds carry risk of peyronies.  The beauty of an implant is that the surgeon can usually address peyronies and erectile dysfunction in one procedure.  Hawk doesn’t just focus on implants as the peyronies forum is his and it obviously addresses all treatments.  Hope this helps.
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2018, 09:00:38 AM »

I have to agree with Jack, after 2 years of reading this forum, I began to notice obvious things: this forum is very "implants oriented", sometimes it seems even as a copy of FT forum, but isn't it a Peyronies Disease forum huh?
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Hawk

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2018, 11:00:45 AM »

Look, I am going to try hard one more time to explain this and to do so in a civil way.  There seems to be a very backward closed mind among some about the working solutions that are actually available and effective.  These solutions have an incredible satisfaction rate. Although statistics are not widely available, indications are that up to 80 % of men with Peyronies Disease experience some degree of erectile dysfunction. Millions of additional men suffer from erectile dysfunction. The connection between erectile dysfunction and Peyronies Disease is well known.  Not only does Peyronies Disease often result in erectile dysfunction but erectile dysfunction results in fibrosis and Peyronies Disease.  It is often difficult to conclude which started first. 

Just like I was driven to Peyronies Disease forums and found them lacking when I developed Peyronies Disease (which caused me to set up this PDS forum for you), I was driven to FT with my implant surgery. I hate it!  It is bizarre that I founded a Peyronies Disease forum but had to go somewhere else to find the only workable solution to my Peyronies Disease.  Even though This is by far the biggest most complete Peyronies forum in the world it failed to address what was an incredibly perfect solution for the man that started it.  I had to go elsewhere for support. I have to wonder if I would not have found this solution much sooner if we had the necessary information and discussion here.  How many thousands have we hid this solution from?  Members here often mention FT and refer members of our forum to that site.  This is a Peyronies Disease forum.  How lame of a Peyronies Disease forum is it if we have to keep referring men with Peyronies Disease to another forum for solutions? 

It would be unacceptable to force our members to go there for solutions to Peyronies Disease even if FT were the equivalent of our forum but for erectile dysfunction but it is NOT!.  There were a lot of very knowledgeable members there. Many of the members there have Peyronies Disease.  Make no mistake, FT's priorities lie with not offending doctors or lawyers, or donors.  They end up patroled by thought police that dictate what opinions or thoughts you are allowed to express.  They accept money, advertising, and have doctors and lawyers dictating to them just like the Peyronies Disease forums before we came along.  Men cannot openly discuss how to properly deal with erectile dysfunction there whether Peyronies Disease induced or otherwise. The name "FT" has become a bad joke.  There can be no frank discussion there.

The truth is you cannot name a single alternative solution that fixes Peyronies Disease and erectile dysfunction.  After 15 years of trying everything on this site an outpatient implant had me back for awesome, youthful full-fledged intercourse within 21 days. Please READ THAT AGAIN.  "15 years to find a 21 day solution" If you choose to reject that as a solution, that is your right.  Celibacy or non-penetrating sex may work for you but it doesn't work for me and my spouse.  Not only was the solution so simple, with Medicare and insurance it did not cost me one penny except gasoline for my car and 1 night in a motel room.  In fact, it was so simple it made me feel like a fool for not doing it 15 years ago and for keeping the information from the several thousand that seek us out and trust us to share available solutions.

What we have going on here is strange indeed.  It is the opposite of what goes on most forums.  There, the administrator and moderators play God and prevent members from openly discussing solutions.  They ban those that disagree with the administrator's point of view. (at least 3 of our members were banned from FT) Here, a few members think others (remarkably including the administrator) should be silenced.  They seem to feel they are entitled to dictate what solutions and opinions are allowed. They seem to think the only free speech here is the speech they like.    I am not about to deny men the right to openly discuss the only treatment that resolves both Peyronies Disease and erectile dysfunction in a single 30-minute surgery because a couple guys have some kind of 19th century prejudiced mentality against it. This forum is here to shine a light on a terrible disorder not to hide solutions in a dark backward thinking corner. 

Those that disagree are free to discuss and to pick other solutions.  They are free to find another forum that they like better.  They are free to set up a forum of their own where they can dictate speech and play god. They are not free to shut up others or to dictate to them on this forum. This is the 21st century.  It is not the 1800's and it is not the year 3000.  Stop trying to deny a discussion on the only real solution on earth for men that have both Peyronies Disease and erectile dysfunction.  There is a 20-minute surgery that can fix a 50-degree bend and reverse erectile dysfunction to the point it would make a healthy 18-year-old boy jealous yet it seems to tick a few men off -  too bad.
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Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 68 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

Hawk

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2018, 11:40:41 AM »

PS: if any three members want this put up for a vote, I will gladly pose the question as a member poll to the membership of "Should we be able to have in-depth conversation and support for the treatment of penile implants and erectile dysfunction on this forum".  I can assure you that it will RESOUNDINGLY pass with a YES vote.
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Prostatectomy 2004, radiation 2009, currently 68 yrs old
After pills, injections, VED - Dr Eid, Titan 22cm implant 8/7/18
Hawk - Updated 10/27/18 - Peyronies Society Forums

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2018, 12:26:33 PM »

I have to agree with Jack, after 2 years of reading this forum, I began to notice obvious things: this forum is very "implants oriented", sometimes it seems even as a copy of FT forum, but isn't it a Peyronies Disease forum huh?

Alex, I would think it would be safe to say that 25% of those with Erectile Dysfunction and inject end up with some form of peronies. I would say it would be quite safe to say that a percentage of those with Erectile Dysfunction and other forms of treatment or no treatment also develop a curvature, so by those measures, a treatment that can address both has every right to be here as both issues very often go together.  I have many questions when I see doctors.  I asked Dr. Rybak about plaque and scaring. He said it is common when installing an implant to run into plaque and scar tissue that there was no sign of from prior exams. To some degree, we all deal with the same thing and it is not uncommon for someone with peronies straightened out by surgery or viaflex to need and Erectile Dysfunction cure later. This whole site is divided into many areas. Chose which one suits you and ignore the rest. When I was on FT, there were many divisions I never read over the years. The only reason I am here now is I was asked by several members and I was sick of the commercialization and censorship at the other site requiring us to support the advertising and sales of certain products and hinky surgeries. Just like you had your say, I am allowed to have mine here without being ordered to support something that will do a person harm.  Give everything you view some thought with an open mind. The nice thing about a forum is it allows us to discuss things we do not talk about in public and share the challenges and trials of others. It helps us all to have the collective minds of many to find the correct avenue to deal with our own issues. Cheers man and have a great day.
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skunkworks

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2018, 09:58:40 AM »

this forum is very "implants oriented"

It's really not... For the longest time this forum was very much of the (group) mind that an 'implant is the very last resort'. Hawk (the founder) waited something like 15 years! to get one, which he did recently and got a great result. That has sparked a lot of conversation on the topic recently, which is very natural. It's natural because when someone we trust gets a good result, we take a closer look at it than we might have otherwise.

His good result led to a few other long term members taking the plunge which of course spurred even more discussion on the subject.

But the bulk of the posts on this forum are actually about traction, VED and oral treatments. The vast vast vast majority.  It's just that there have not been many advancements in those areas, and when there are they are discussed. Such as the new traction device called Restorex, or investigations into the possibility of asthma/rheumatoid arthritis drugs being helpful, investigations into diet and fasting, compiling studies on the various treatments etc...

Thing is if the treatment plan of traction/ved plus pentox and cialis/viagra does not work out for you, then there is not much else out there other than surgery or an implant. There are a few things like heat treatment, or the treatment protocol involving a bunch of antioxidants and voltaren but nothing with much evidence behind it.

The closest this forum has come to having an advert is letting Augusta offer a discount on a VED to members here.
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2018, 12:53:02 AM »

Werther, Alexsamo: skunkworks could not save said it better. The problem is that some guys and this does not just happen on this forum, it happens everyday in life refuse to accept something even if it is a better option for them because of being stubborn and being unable to see the reality around them. Also.... Denial.

This thing at wake forest can even if it comes out in the nearest future... 5/10 years... What will you do with your life till that point? Will you want to be the first in line for a treatment that is new on the market and may have unforeseen results and complications? That may not even apply to you once it's out?

So many things you guys are not asking yourselfs and instead prefer to attack the staff.

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2018, 07:58:39 AM »

So I am, stubborn...prfact I think you’re overall understanding of the matter penis intended as a whole, and when I say whole, I put the mind into the matter as well, is biased. You might don’t even know what does mean to having to deal with neuropathy, which means being scared to have a shower, to get dressed and even to use the restroom...due to this, I’ve lost the ability to feel pleasure. Many on the forum have this problem. So, don’t you think people coping with it are not the best candidates for implants?? Implant itself, alone, is often recommended along with a psychological therapy..why? Because people are dumb or because it’s a huge leap into something with no way back??
Are we stupid or stubborn or maybe reasonable if we are trying to get some regenerative procedure promoting some healing on our tissues? No one is expecting a miracle cure, just an improvement.
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2018, 08:31:36 AM »

something with no way back??

If I understood what I read about WakeForrest and what they are working on, then if it worked as described it is something that would still be an option even if you had an implant (removed of course).
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2018, 09:12:21 AM »

Not at all skunworks..
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2018, 09:36:19 AM »

Are you sure about that? Why?

Wakeforrest is working on replacing corporal tissue, why on earth would that not work after an implant had been removed?
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2018, 09:48:32 AM »

Many men still have so many misconceptions about implants and even erectile dysfunction in general.  Implants remove nothing from the penis.  Men are left with every cell of tissue they had before the implant.  Also, erectile dysfunction comes from a wide range of issues from veins leaking to nerve damage as a result of everything from surgery to a back injury.  These are just a few issues.  If tissue regeneration is possible to repair or replace damaged tissue in the penis then there is NO reason that it could repair damage from one cause and not another cause.  If it can address fibrosis in the cavernosa and tunica then it can address a cavernosa that has had tissue pushed aside by an implant.

Also Jack, in my struggle to try to understand your problems, if you have neuropathy issues that make a shower difficult how would you ever go through a trial or procedures similar to what Wake Forest is working on?  Wouldn't such a trial be as scary as implant surgery?
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2018, 10:41:00 AM »

Wakeforrest is working on replacing corporal tissue, why on earth would that not work after an implant had been removed?

1. This trial deals with creating grafts to substitute damaged areas that are no longer than 5 cm (take a look at the inclusion criteria on clinicaltrials.gov). If you remove two tubes that run along for the entire lenght of the corpora cavernosa, the part you'll have to rebuild will be way longer than 5 cm. This would make you not eligible.

2. I may be wrong with regards to this, but it appears to me that when you're implanted the tubes end up in the glans. If it's like this, after their removal you'd have to create scaffolds for the glans too. But this trial is about erectile tissue engineering (i.e. tunica and/or corpora); the glans is the termination of the corpus spongiosum however and Wake Forest hasn't been working for corpus spongiosum partial replacement as far as I know. This is another reason why you'd be not eligible if you're already implanted.

If anyone want to know for sure, the best thing would be to ask Wake Forest directly. I doubt however that they'll say that implanted men are eligible nonetheless for their surgery. Imo an implanted guy could access this kind of regenerative therapy only if this would consist of penis' whole replacement. It's obvious however that this is gonna happen - if ever - only by the year 3000...
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2018, 11:05:26 AM »

Simply answer to your question hawk ...regenerative therapies have proved to heal tissues, implants don’t. An erectile autologous graft is the perfect environment to let nerves grow back (especially peripheral nerves which got the intrinsic ability to do it)..this is why I would pick this over an implant. Even if experimental..it might mean a double improvement..

So hawk..in this very moment I can have not complete erections, far away from perfect, but still a rigidity..if I go for an implant and then I remove it, I would have the same rigidity I had before going for the procedure??
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2018, 03:05:59 PM »

Once implants removed the capacity for erections is essentially eliminated.
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2018, 04:12:38 PM »

This is exactly the same reason why guys go for things like vitamin e, colchicine, and priapus shot. Things that do not work but people still hope it will because they believe so hard in illusions. There are so many wrong things with your rationale on those posts (werther and Jack) that I will just leave it at that. If you want to wait another 20 years, go for it. I personally prefer to save money and go for an implant and solve my problem Erectile Dysfunction and curvature problem all at once. There are caveats, but all things considered it's the thing with the greatest success rate of all treatments.

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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2018, 05:22:46 PM »

Just want to remind for everyone that this is a thread named "Wake Forest - Good News", not "Why implants is the best decision" or "We recommend to all of you to get an implant ASAP". I bet there are a lot of other sections on this forum where you can find such discussions and keep continue them.
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2018, 05:51:20 PM »

Well said Alex.

@pfract: nobody adviced you or anyone else to avoid the implant. If you want to go for it, just do it. I personally don't understand why you keep bragging about how much you'd like it but you're not making any move towards it. And it's been years: I read posts of yours here and on FT about how wonderful is an implant that were written years ago! Even in your signature you first wrote 2019 as a possible date for this surgery, then now it's 2020 and maybe next month it will be 2021, 2022 and so on. What are you waiting for? If money is a problem get a loan and pay the doctor to perform this surgery. I know that if I was 100% convinced to get such surgery, I would behave accordingly to my will and I wouldn't lose my time trying to convince others to do it while avoiding it by myself. I don't know if you actually realize that posts like yours make no sense at all: you're not helping yourself and you're not helping anyobdy else.

I don't want to add anything anymore on this subject. There's an appropriate section on this forum and if anyone wants to discuss implants he can do it right there, where such discussions belong. Everybody here have spoken so much about implants that anyone reading this thread from the outisde wouldn't even understand that the topic is actually completely different.
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2018, 07:28:47 PM »

1. This trial deals with creating grafts to substitute damaged areas that are no longer than 5 cm (take a look at the inclusion criteria on clinicaltrials.gov). If you remove two tubes that run along for the entire lenght of the corpora cavernosa, the part you'll have to rebuild will be way longer than 5 cm. This would make you not eligible.

Fair enough, thanks for the info Werther.

@Alexsamo, yes I am aware and I will try to split and move posts completely unrelated to wakeforrest to a different thread shortly. Thread drift is unavoidable but I think in this case it may have gone a little far.

But to all, remember we're all working toward the same thing here. It is natural that people will want to educate others about a particular treatment which worked for them, BECAUSE they want others to get a good result also.
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Vs Implant
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2018, 12:50:12 PM »

Since i'm the creator of this post, i want to say my opinion:

1. ABOUT IMPLANTS: The implant is, for sure, something to consider. I'm now 24 years old, so i'm not even considering an implant now. But my plan is to wait until my 30th birthday and see what's new. Essentially, if i will not be able to solve my issues until 33-34 years old, i'll probably go for it. It is a crap solution, but it is a solution, and it has to be considered. That said, i think that it is probably the worst solution for a young guy, and since it causes in some people an enormous amount of psychological distress, we MUST respect people who are NOT considering implants as an option. After all, no one can force a patient to implant a silicone tube inside his penis and tell him that "it's a great solution!" because IT IS NOT, and people who say that "is great!" are liars. Why? Simply because sex' pleasure is not only the penetration itself, but even in "feel the penis pumping", in getting aroused and feel the blood coming in, it is in the spontaneity of the act. Not all the men want to say goodbye to all these things. Furthermore, it can be a good solution for someone in a stable marriage, with a good wife who doesn't care about it. But please think at people like me or Werther, still young men, who know a girl in the disco and after going house with her, we have to say: "i'm sorry, can you please wait 2 minutes while i pump my scrotum? you know, my penis is bent and i suffer from erectile dysfunction, so pumping this crap is the only way i can get some kind of erection!". CMON GUYS. Yes it is a solution, but it is sh!^^y for young people. And i'll leave any argument about many revisions that a young man will need.

2. ABOUT WAKE FOREST: Ok, we all agree that this is exciting but will take years for sure. So PLEASE, american guys, DO something. You'll have all the support. After all, WFIRM is funded by YOUR government, so YOU are the only legitimated guys to say something about how they should be fast while working since they're funded by your taxes. Let's stop fighting about implants or not implants, and please LETS DO SOMETHING!

3.  FOR HAWK: Dear Hawk, i suggest to create a section in this forum about "Venous surgery". This post clearly demonstrated that not all the people are willing to go for an implant, and some people unfortunately cant use Viagra because it wont work for them. So, since science goes on, i suggest to create a section about venous surgery for venous leak/ erectile dysfunction in which people can discuss about it and report their experiences. As i know, it doesnt exist in the whole web something like this, with the patients who REALLY underwent venous surgery who report their outcomes. And i think that this can easily be PURE GOLD for people who suffer from erectile dysfunction, because if something new will come out, we will have the chance to know if it works directly by the patients and not from scientifical papers which, in my experiences, are in many cases totally false.

A big hug to all, brothers.
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Re: Wake Forest- Good news
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2018, 12:31:59 AM »

hope794, I understand where you are coming from and it makes some sense. It is always good to have a plan in place and have time to get everything lined out in that plan to a level you are comfortable with.

To you and Hawk,  I think both Hawk and I are on the same page here. Venous surgery is considered quack medicine here in the states and almost never done any more. It does not work more times that it does and the failure rate is rapid and often in those who initially had success. I know of 2 members who committed suicide that were on another forum after their vein surgery failed them.  Having a section for venous surgery ads credibility to a very poor outcome type of quack medicine.  If adding credibility to such poor outcome  surgery, there just as well be a section to sell the phony penis growth pills that claim to grow your dick 3 inches in only 2 weeks. If I understand this site correctly, it's purpose it to help without doing anyone harm or to try to prevent anyone from harm. 

Back to you hope794, many trials are done outside the United States to get around regulations for safety and lessen the cost. Some trials are duplicated in other countries to speed up the trial and often accepted years before here which will add credibility or show flaws over time.   Encouraging a duplicate trial in another country may help get the quicker results you desire, though this is not like taking a pill. Bioengineering a scaffold and growing tissue is a complex, very sterile laboratory project.  Cheers man.
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Vs Implant
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2018, 01:50:21 PM »


3.  FOR HAWK: Dear Hawk, i suggest to create a section in this forum about "Venous surgery". This post clearly demonstrated that not all the people are willing to go for an implant, and some people unfortunately cant use Viagra because it wont work for them. So, since science goes on, i suggest to create a section about venous surgery for venous leak/ erectile dysfunction in which people can discuss about it and report their experiences. As i know, it doesnt exist in the whole web something like this, with the patients who REALLY underwent venous surgery who report their outcomes. And i think that this can easily be PURE GOLD for people who suffer from erectile dysfunction, because if something new will come out, we will have the chance to know if it works directly by the patients and not from scientifical papers which, in my experiences, are in many cases totally false.

A big hug to all, brothers.

I will address point #3 first because it is the shortest and easiest. - I will not start a section on Venous Surgery on the forum for the following reasons that Alibaba and others clearly explained.  There are known suicide victims resulting from this surgery.  It is a crap shoot with more chance of causing problems than solutions.  Finally, we have places to discuss general questions and comments not covered under other topics.  Since unlike other forums, here we give members a voice, if even 10 members want a topic I will take it to the moderators for discussion and a decision to possibly put it up for a forum vote.

To your point #1

1. ABOUT IMPLANTS: The implant is, for sure, something to consider. I'm now 24 years old, so i'm not even considering an implant now. But my plan is to wait until my 30th birthday and see what's new. Essentially, if i will not be able to solve my issues until 33-34 years old, i'll probably go for it. It is a crap solution, but it is a solution, and it has to be considered. That said, i think that it is probably the worst solution for a young guy, .... After all, no one can force a patient to implant a silicone tube inside his penis and tell him that "it's a great solution!" because IT IS NOT, and people who say that "is great!" are liars. Why? Simply because sex' pleasure is not only the penetration itself, but even in "feel the penis pumping", in getting aroused and feel the blood coming in, it is in the spontaneity of the act. Not all the men want to say goodbye to all these things. Furthermore, it can be a good solution for someone in a stable marriage, with a good wife who doesn't care about it. But please think at people like me or Werther, still young men, who know a girl in the disco and after going house with her, we have to say: "i'm sorry, can you please wait 2 minutes while i pump my scrotum? you know, my penis is bent and i suffer from erectile dysfunction, so pumping this crap is the only way i can get some kind of erection!". CMON GUYS. Yes it is a solution, but it is sh!^^y for young people. And i'll leave any argument about many revisions that a young man will need.

So you are saying with an implant, you miss the feel of the penis pumping?  Oh wait, you never had an implant right?  So actually you have no idea what it feels like to have an erection pumped with an implant do you?  What you are actually doing is projecting and imagining how you think it feels based on backward thinking about "plastic tubes".  ---- The blood has no nerves.  The penis nerves all respond to touch, temperature, and pressure.  A penis made erect by warm saline feels just like a penis made erect by warm blood.  It feels like an engorged hard-on that makes you want sex.  If I pump before I shave, it turns my thoughts toward sex.  I think my view of this carries much more credibility than your view since I have had many times more natural erections than you have had and I have had an implant and you never experienced an inflated implant or sex with an implant.   You imagine you know what you are talking about before you ever experience it.  You pre-judged it which by definition means your opinion is based on a prejudice, not fact or reason.  On your second point that a hot young stud like you would be slowed down by an implant, I can assure you.  There are many men your age picking up far more girls with an implant than you or most other guys without one.  As one girl put it, "this has almost ruined me for other guys.  My bionic male 2.0 never makes me feel rushed or that I have to judge my timing.  For the first time, I can relax and think about pleasure because I know he is always in control."

PS: At some point, you stated anyone that says different than your preconceived opinion is a liar.  I take issue with that statement.  If you feel so infallible that you think you must know everything then your penis is not the only thing that could use some rehabilitation ;)
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Re: Wake Forest- Vs Implant
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2018, 02:33:33 PM »

Man. Implants IMO we’re like a taboo here not too long ago. Hawk started everything. When I didn’t research on implants I couldn’t do it here. I did it on FT. I’d much rather do it here because I relate more to Peyronies suferers than old me with blood flow issues causing Erectile Dysfunction. I also would personally prefer an implant over Erectile Dysfunction for years
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Re: Re: Wake Forest- Vs Implant
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2018, 03:25:30 PM »

To your point #1
So you are saying with an implant, you miss the feel of the penis pumping?  Oh wait, you never had an implant right?  So actually you have no idea what it feels like to have an erection pumped with an implant do you?  What you are actually doing is projecting and imagining how you think it feels based on backward thinking about "plastic tubes".  ---- The blood has no nerves.  The penis nerves all respond to touch, temperature, and pressure.  A penis made erect by warm saline feels just like a penis made erect by warm blood.  It feels like an engorged hard-on that makes you want sex.  If I pump before I shave, it turns my thoughts toward sex.  I think my view of this carries much more credibility than your view since I have had many times more natural erections than you have had and I have had an implant and you never experienced an inflated implant or sex with an implant.   You imagine you know what you are talking about before you ever experience it.  You pre-judged it which by definition means your opinion is based on a prejudice, not fact or reason.  On your second point that a hot young stud like you would be slowed down by an implant, I can assure you.  There are many men your age picking up far more girls with an implant than you or most other guys without one.  As one girl put it, "this has almost ruined me for other guys.  My bionic male 2.0 never makes me feel rushed or that I have to judge my timing.  For the first time, I can relax and think about pleasure because I know he is always in control."

I think that you misunderstood hope794's point. I bet he was trying to say that getting implanted inevitably implies loss of spontaneous erections - forever - and this is something that not everyone is willing to get accustomed to. And I think he was trying to stress out that the spontaneity of an erection is a big deal for a man's perspective of sexuality (at least for some men) so that not everybody is willing to brush it off like it was something of no importance. That's what he was referring to when he said that an implanted man won't "feel the penis pumping" anymore (at least this is how I interpreted it).

The fact that artificial erections will necessarily be less satysfing than natural ones with regards to the psychological component (because of the lack of spontaneity of the latters) is obviously a prejudice if said by someone who didn't experience artifical erections because he was not implanted. Anyhow your reply is lacking of logic too: nobody can know in advance if he will feel comfortable with an erection that's only going to happen if pumped up by a device placed in the scrotum, but he knows for sure that if he's not going to like it he won't have any possibilty to come back (ever) because implants are irreversible; that's why the fact that you feel like you're ok with an artificial erection doesn't prove that it will be ok for others who'll have the same kind of surgery you underwent, even if they didn't have them performed yet and you did it instead.

I don't know why you keep underestimating the psycholgical impact that penile implant surgery can have on a man. You didn't experience any psychological trauma from this and I think we're all happy for you for this (nobody is wishing any bad on anyone else here) but your own personal experience doesn't necesarilly represent the one that every man who's going to have (or had) penile implant surgery will have (or has had). I've read about many men and their respective partners who were dissatisfied by such surgery and I can even post you a link of a paper regarding this psychological distress I'm talking about that followed this surgery. Just ask me and I'll do it.

In conclusion, anyhow, I'm tired of this diatribe and I don't even know why you had to open a separate thread putting developmental procedures against implants. Nobody here wants to judge others for their decisions regarding their own dicks and the original thread was in fact opened to shed some light on a developmental procedure's progress that lots of young guys are looking at with great interest. I could not help but notice that you didn't answer the only question made by hope794 whose response might actually help somebody. It's the second point of his post and I'm going to report it as it was written: "2. ABOUT WAKE FOREST: Ok, we all agree that this is exciting but will take years for sure. So PLEASE, american guys, DO something. You'll have all the support. After all, WFIRM is funded by YOUR government, so YOU are the only legitimated guys to say something about how they should be fast while working since they're funded by your taxes. Let's stop fighting about implants or not implants, and please LETS DO SOMETHING!". I've been asking this several times but I didn't get any response back from you or anyone else here: do you want to do something with regards to this (like signing a petiton, go there in person or whatever) or you acutally don't give a [email protected]< about it? Please give us a simple and clear answer.
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Hawk

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The Implant Wars - PRO Vs Con :)
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2018, 04:43:03 PM »

Werther,

You said you did not know why I had to open up the second thread -  A guy could easily get the feeling you just want to complain.  I split the topic because of complaints (which I agree with) that implants were taking over the Wake Forrest topic.  The only way to fix that was to split it off and get it out of the area you have a great interest in and move it to the implant Board where it belongs.  I did that, and instead of thanking me for taking time out of my day to do that you followed the split posts here to continue the diatribe and complain.   

You said " nobody can know in advance if he will feel comfortable with an erection that's only going to happen if pumped up by a device placed in the scrotum," - I totally agree with this and it affirms the point I was making.  That is why men that have not had the experience should not declare how it is with an implant or how it would be for them.  They won't know until they get one,  They can only go on information from men that can compare both an implant and a natural erection.  Then decide if they want one or prefer living with their current state of erectile dysfunction possibly while wishing for some sudden natural cure.

You said, Implants are irreversible.  They are not irreversible.  If you could not get an erection before an implant and you don't like the erection, you can have it reversed and go back to no erections.  I think one of the silliest arguments I ever hear is when men that cannot get an erection are hesitating to get an implant because they judge it to be inferior to a natural erection which they cannot produce ?? ??  If we are going to hope for futuristic things like tissue regeneration then we can also dream of whole organ regeneration which is also a heavily researched field.  With such advances, it would be nothing to remove an implant and repair a little spongy tissue that was pushed to the side of the cavernosa.

You said, "I don't know why you keep underestimating the psychological impact that penile implant surgery can have on a man." - I don't underestimate it.  It has had and will continue to have a GREAT positive impact on men.  I can't force men to have surgery.  If you or anyone does not want it then stop reading the posts and ignore it.  Don't, however, follow the posts around and try to define a process you have no experience with.  I know the great psychological negative impact erectile dysfunction has on men.  I have great experience with both erectile dysfunction and implant surgery.  That is the background behind my posts.

You said, "  I've read about many men and their respective partners who were dissatisfied by such surgery and I can even post you a link of a paper regarding this psychological distress I'm talking about that followed this surgery. Just ask me and I'll do it." -  Please post it so we can all examine it and be informed.  I am confident that no men and their partners had a properly installed implant and were dissatisfied.  Such numbers could not exceed 1% which is smaller than the number of people that claim to be abducted by flying saucers. The suggestion could only be made by someone that has no experience with implants.

Finally, About an outreach to Wake Forest.  You can feel free to organize any effort you please.  I will support you.  I will give some assistance as my time allows.  Even though you are not a U.S. citizen, you can organize an effort as well as anyone.  Privately (through a PM) put a team together.  Develop action plans, make assignments, follow-up>  I will even grant you moderator status over the awareness board.  You can do as much as any American.  The only way we know you are not American is because you told us.  -  I am dead serious about this and will gladly discuss it further by PM.  I am happy to talk to Wake Forest and report back to you.  I would probably even consider visiting wake Forest if some closer representative could not do that.
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Alibaba

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Re: The Implant Wars - PRO Vs Con :) moved from the Wake Forest Topic
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2018, 05:43:18 PM »

Werther, you are quite passionate about Wake Forrest. Let them know. Research is long, tedious, boring and full of paperwork. Letting them know you are enthused about their work may invigorate them to keep them going. You would be shocked at how many researchers burn out and quit. I'm very fortunate to have met the people in my life and to have researchers who are friends and I see how hard it is on them.
If they do not produce results they do not get funding. If someone develops a better plan, those people get the funding. It is a high stress job of long hours.

You state: "I've read about many men and their respective partners who were dissatisfied by such surgery and I can even post you a link of a paper regarding this psychological distress I'm talking about that followed this surgery."  Implants have been around since the 1970's.  That is nearly 50 years.  Little has changed, but there have been numerous studies that the overall satisfaction rate is between 70 and 90%.  Let's say the ones you are talking about are the 30% that are unhappy.  Compare that to those with erectile dysfunction.  The erectile dysfunction bunch are 100% unhappy else people like you would not be here. It does not matter the cause of there dysfunction or the complications that present with it. They are all unhappy with their situation, so to deal with that ANY type of treatment that may help should be considered. Cheers man. Have a great day.
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Re: The Implant Wars - PRO Vs Con :) moved from the Wake Forest Topic
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2018, 09:47:59 PM »

You state: "I've read about many men and their respective partners who were dissatisfied by such surgery and I can even post you a link of a paper regarding this psychological distress I'm talking about that followed this surgery."  Implants have been around since the 1970's.  That is nearly 50 years.  Little has changed, but there have been numerous studies that the overall satisfaction rate is between 70 and 90%.  Let's say the ones you are talking about are the 30% that are unhappy.  Compare that to those with erectile dysfunction.  The erectile dysfunction bunch are 100% unhappy else people like you would not be here. It does not matter the cause of there dysfunction or the complications that present with it. They are all unhappy with their situation, so to deal with that ANY type of treatment that may help should be considered. Cheers man. Have a great day.

Penile implant by far has the highest satisfaction rate of any Erectile Dysfunction treatment and higher than most elective surgeries of any type.   Add to that the 10 % that are not happy had some local doctor that does 5 implants a year work him in between tacking up a woman's bladder and doing lithotripsy on some kidney stones.  If you have some yaahoo work on you and screw up the job you are very likely to be dissatisfied.  That is why I specified men with a properly installed implant.  I really want to see this paper he promised to post. Let the evidence and the chips fall where they will.  I don't avoid any evidence.  To do so is just foolish.
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Re: Wake Forest- Vs Implant
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2018, 11:37:10 PM »

Man. Implants IMO we’re like a taboo here not too long ago.

I think that is partially my fault to be honest. I do find the idea of an implant quite confronting and I think I pushed the 'implant is absolutely a last resort' line of thinking more than most.
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Re: The Implant Wars - PRO Vs Con :) moved from the Wake Forest Topic
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2018, 06:18:19 AM »

@Hawk, as Werther said, you probably misunderstood the point of my talk. But that is probably my fault too, due to my english which is not the greatest for sure. So i'll try to make it crystal clear point by point, to end the discussion once for all:

- I didnt want to say that if you are good with an implant then you're a liar. I am sure that you have a great sex with your wife. I'm just saying that, even if it is a solution, the "GOLD SOLUTION" would be something restoring natural erections. To say that "implant is great!" has sense if you come from years and years of erectile dysfunction and you have your erections back thanks to the implant. But please note that many people have many different situations, for example: 1. they didn't lost their erections totally, but only partially (like me and werther), so the choice is much more difficult for us. 2. Not all the people live in America with great surgeons like Dr. Eid. In Italy we have litterally ZERO great high volume surgeons like Dr. Eid. and travel in another country is expensive - not all can afford it. 3. Economically speaking, USA has a private insurance system which does not exist in Italy: we have a "public health system" which grants to everyone free cures but they're crap. You can't select your favourite surgeon (so you will probably have the surgery with a crap doctor), you cannot select which kind of implant you will have (so the national health system will provide for sure you with the worst and less expensive implant ever), you won't have all the "attentions" that you have when going to a private surgeon. Salary is much less here in Italy than in USA, and 25,000$ paid by us are WAY MORE than 25,000$ paid by the average american, due to a huge gap in salaries, and banks don't provide loans so easily.

I could continue this talk forever, but i'll stop here - what i wanted to say is that implant is an HARD, HARD choice  because of: psychological issues (like werther greatly said), money issues, outcome issues and so on.
What do i mean with "outcome issues"? I mean that not everyone has the same penis. For example, as i said in another post, my flaccid penis when stretched is ridicolous. Seriously, something like 13 cm (i think its 5.11 inches), but while in full erection it is 6,7 / 6.89 inches (about 17-17.5 cm) . I know that it is hard to believe, but that's it. No one believes me, but that's the reality. To have an implant for me means to switch from a great penis to a really small one. Means to have a minimum of 4 revisions. MINIMUM. ( i considered a 10 years lifespan - which , if you have a lot of sex like a young guy should have, it may easily be half this lifespan).

To end this discussion, i say that i'm sorry if i was misunderstood. I'm not saying that anyone here is a bad person , a liar or everything else. I just say that a solution which was "great!!!" for you, does not mean that it would be great for everyone else. And that's a fact.. not all have the same starting point, the same life, the same bank account, the same penis, the same psychological impact, the same great country with great surgeons, and so on.
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26 yo from Italy.Peyronie's probably since 2014.Since then,penis bends of about 20-25°, with a moderate twist to the left. Erectile Dysfunction since 4 years and things getting worse.From pornstar-like to moderately depressed,but still fighting for a solution.

Hawk

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Re: The Implant Wars - PRO Vs Con :) moved from the Wake Forest Topic
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2018, 08:57:15 AM »

Hope, - you made several valid points.
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hope794

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Re: The Implant Wars - PRO Vs Con :) moved from the Wake Forest Topic
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2018, 09:10:53 AM »

Thank you, Hawk. As i said, i didn't want to offend anyone - at the contrary, i respect you more than you can imagine because you created all of this, the biggest peyronie's forum all over the world. I just wanted to clarify why many men, especially from countries like Italy, are not really enthusiast about implants.

That said, i still think that a venous surgery section would be great. What you and alibaba said is totally true, many surgeon destroyed the life of people like gollam and others. And i think that this may easily be one of the best reasons to create a forum section talking about this: in that section we will not endorse or suggest ANY surgery, we will only share our experiences, or experiences that we find online. Gollam's story would obviously the first story to be shared. This can easily save lifes, since people who will read that story will never undergo such a surgical procedure. At the contrary, if someone obtains good results with that kind of surgery, i think that it's good if he shares.

Thanks for the attention!
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26 yo from Italy.Peyronie's probably since 2014.Since then,penis bends of about 20-25°, with a moderate twist to the left. Erectile Dysfunction since 4 years and things getting worse.From pornstar-like to moderately depressed,but still fighting for a solution.

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Re: The Implant Wars - PRO Vs Con :) moved from the Wake Forest Topic
« Reply #45 on: November 05, 2018, 10:51:58 AM »

Hope, I understand your argument for a venous surgery board but we could make that argument for every known dangerous patient or doctor procedure, and there are many in the risky non-treatment child board.  We could fill the forum with a list of such boards which would destroy the forum structure.  Such a subject might deserve a post in a board's "Highlights".  It might even deserve its own sticky topic on a board but we cannot devote an entire board to a flawed, rejected, procedure.
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redbullmaster

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Re: The Implant Wars - PRO Vs Con :) moved from the Wake Forest Topic
« Reply #46 on: November 05, 2018, 02:56:48 PM »

When it comes to venous surgery there's more than one type.
Gollam had a newish type where they inject a solution into the penis which shrinks the veins.

But like a lot of us on here Gollam was suffering from bad depression and the results of the Erectile Dysfunction from the operation caused him to take his own life.
He did have the option of an implant, but I guess he had just had enough.

The normal operation is where they tie off the veins to stop the blood flow.
This normally doesn’t work, as the blood just finds a different way to escape. 

Had this done after an implant to help with my soft glans, but no joy.
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Alibaba

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Re: The Implant Wars - PRO Vs Con :) moved from the Wake Forest Topic
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2018, 12:47:35 AM »

there are a number of types of sclerotherapy. They can inject a sodium chloride which dries up the veins, a number of chemicals that scar them, these are usually for smaller veins.  A foam for bigger veins that also dries and scars them.  A gel glue that stops them up, or ligate them; tying them off. Most of these procedures can take several hours according the boys I've talked to that have had it done.  E.D. is already an emotional subject that can cause emotional stress. An often fail procedure such as this is enough to push some poor people like Gollum over the edge when they have high expectations, spent their last finances on the failed fix and it does not work. Another person I know of had mortgaged their house to pay for his surgery that failed and killed himself knowing he could not afford to mortgage again for another try. Bottom line is an often failing procedure is not a good first line choice for anyone.
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Re: The Implant Wars - PRO Vs Con :) moved from the Wake Forest Topic
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2018, 05:05:11 PM »

I didn't want to ignite again "The Implant Wars" but Hawk invited me to share the links I talked about in a previous post of mine in this thread.

I will do it for the informative purpose's sake of this forum, but I don't mean to discredit others who chose or are going to choose this kind of surgery. From my point of view the subsequent literature should only validate what I've already stated here (something that's pretty obvious), namely the fact that not everybody is comfortable with the idea of getting implanted (even if the majority of implanted men look like they're happy with this choice based on the reports).

Here are a few links that might be useful to reflect upon:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261950539_What_are_the_reasons_for_satisfaction_and_dissatisfaction_with_penile_prosthesis_implant_A_qualitative_study_of_53_implants

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5715186/

https://www.jurology.com/article/S0022-5347(15)02755-X/fulltext

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23551538

I'd like to stress out that these studies have great limitations nonetheless; here's what was stated in the conclusions of the biggest (with regards to its participants) of the abovementioned studies: "Study limitations include that all participating prosthetic urologists are high volume implanters and these results may not be representative of those of general urologists or another group of high volume implanters. A second limitation is that the study aims to represent “real world” experience and none of the patients were randomized. A third limitation is that while most of the study points are mandatory, some of the data collection was optional, with not all sites participating. A fourth limitation of the study is that only AMS implants were used and the results may not be generalized to all penile prostheses. Also, because this is essentially the first prospective, multicenter study of such magnitude, there is a dearth of prosthetic urology literature with which it can be compared" (source: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/ec0a/7a7c2ae957fb6f6428945818839af4259f7d.pdf).

I'd also like to stress out that the mean age of the participants was never under 50 years old. It would be nice to see what people implanted in their 20s or 30s think about these devices.

Cheers.
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Re: The Implant Wars - PRO Vs Con :) moved from the Wake Forest Topic
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2018, 08:58:20 PM »

Werther, thanks a lot for posting this data.  If there ever comes a time that this forum is afraid to analyze any existing data on any type of treatment due to a bias, then we need to pull the plug.  I understand that you outlined some of the limitations and problems with the studies but here are my thoughts.

My reading of this is as follows.  The first links were of a very small sample (less than 50 men).  Far more concerning is that they were all done by one surgeon so this is more of an evaluation of a surgeon than it is of implants.  In addition, it looks like a very low-volume surgeon that apparently did only 53 surgeries in 9 years or 6 surgeries per year.  One-third of those were not 3 piece inflatable implants.  In spite of that, a surprising 93%  would recommend the surgery and only 22% expressed dissatisfaction.    That is actually better than I would expect from a low-volume surgeon that also implants a lot of mailable implants.

The last link has a much better sample even though it was all AMS.  I am somewhat confident that the implant make would not greatly change the outcome.  It also included 11 different sites.  The problem is there does not seem to be any real way to tell how high volume these sites were.  We know from other studies that the volume level does make a big difference.  At any rate, only 11% of these men were dissatisfied.  I consider that a resounding success!   Also, the main reason for the 11% that were dissatisfied was perceived or actual size loss.  While I don't have hard statistics on high-volume surgeons, I am relatively certain that the main concern of size loss would be virtually wiped out with those surgeons.  I have yet to encounter any patient of Dr. Eid or Dr. Kramer that said they lost any significant size and when it comes to penis size, it does not take much loss to be considered significant by most men.  This leads me to suspect a survey of high-volume surgeons would likely yield an even higher rate than the very high 89% satisfaction rate of the last study.  Keep in mind how high of a rate this is.   You can't find a car, a meal, a beautiful woman, or a politician, that 90% of men would be satisfied with.

PS: On a personal note, Hope made some very valid points below why some men would not consider an implant a good option.  I have no argument against men who have a psychological rejection of the concept or against men that have no ready access to a great surgeon.  My complaint is limited to some men who reject implants on a false basis.  There are many prejudiced opinions out there based on totally false information.
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