Peyronies Society Forums

I have had some recent good fortune of ABOUT a fifty percent plaque nodule reduction! The reduction has come within the last thirty days. I think it has been even sooner but I am going to go with 30 days to be safe. This is an absolute reduction. I can plainly tell that the plaque nodule went from about the size of a half of a marble to half of a pea. My wife even felt the nodule and stated that she thought it was almost gone now.

I am going to go through the forum and enter the exact treatments I have been using within the last thirty days in the appropriate topics areas.

I am posting this for information only. I can't promise and don't promise any results if you follow what I have been doing. I don't know if the results were based on what I have been doing or if I have just experienced a natural regression.

This section I will tell about a treatment that I have been using for a couple of weeks which absolutely falls into "alternative treatments"

My philosophy on Peyronies Disease treatment is that if it seems safe and there is a shred of evidence something might help, then I use it! I will throw everything but the damn kitchen sink at my Peyronies Disease.

In reference to the hyperthermia report that was posted on the news section. I was fascinated by that report and did some research on the net. I decided to make a home treatment system using an infrared lamp (250 watt bulb). I then covered all the exposed areas of my penis except the area with the plaque nodule and allowed the heat lamp to warm the nodule area. I position myself to about 12-16 inches. I get as close as I can stand the heat. I allow the heat to penetrate for 30 to 40 minutes. I have done this every other night for about the last two weeks. It does something because the nodule is usually sore after using this treatment. My research shows that at that distance and with that amount of wattage I should get about 3 to 4 inches of infrared heat penetration. 

Objective: Previous experience in the treatment of plaque with hyperthermia in orthopaedics led the authors to investigate the effectiveness of this approach in patients with Peyronie's disease.Patients and methods: The study population comprised 60 patients (aged 36-76 years) with advanced Peyronie's disease. Patients were divided into two groups (A and B), with 30 in each. Group A patients underwent local hyperthermia treatment, with 30-min treatment sessions twice a week for 5 weeks. Patients received a total of 10 applications, which reached a local temperature of 39-40 degrees C. A second cycle was repeated after a 1-month interval for a total of 20 treatment sessions. Group B patients were treated with intra-plaque infiltrations using 10?mg verapamil; they received one infiltration once a week for 3 months. Differences between the two groups, as well as between variables (before and after treatment), were analysed using Student t-test and Fisher test.Results: Hyperthermia significantly reduced plaque size and penile curvature and led to an increase in mean scores of erectile function (EF) domain, while verapamil had no such effects. Haemodynamic parameters were not significantly modified in either group. Hyperthermia caused significantly fewer side effects than verapamil infiltrations and was significantly more effective in preventing disease progression. There were no significant differences between the two groups in terms of pain reduction during erection.Conclusions: Results of this study stress the efficacy of hyperthermia in the treatment of advanced Peyronie's disease.  

Actually infrared lamps are pretty common for everything from keeping young chicks alive to keeping those nutritious French Fries at McDonalds warm.  I think you could buy one at any large drug store or Wal-Mart.

My question, (one of many) is that I think this study used water.  Would moist heat verses dry heat matter?  Why would daily baths or Jacuzzi not work provided the temperature was correct (102 - 104 F)?  When I had physical therapy on my knee they used a microwave unit to deep heat it.  They actually use them on people's heads, which would concern me but it clearly heated deep into the tissue.  

I know the ladies at PT real well.  They are a riot and I think they would get a kick out of a weenie roast.

Infared Heating Lamp Bulb:
I could only find them at Home depot. I will try and find a link that shows the exact bulb. The bulb is typically red in color and about 250 watts strong. It will clearly state that it is an infared bulb.

Hawk:
I did not see anything in the resrach material that indicated water. I know Will has posted something about that on BTC. However, this report does not appear to indicate moist/water based heat. I could be wrong...

So what is your routine. Do you like play Mcdonalds and through you junk under a heat lamp. I'm trying to picture this and just not seeing it. I could maybe see putting a lamp between your legs but 250 watts that would bet a little warm on the thighs. If it worked for you to and degree I'm willing to try it. No harm no foul right.

Just to give Joshua some encouragement for his thermal treatment:

Here in the UK we have a restaurant called the "Fat Duck", one of the few restarants to rate 3 Michelin stars. It is run by a chef Heston Blumenthal whose two trade marks are (a) mixing unusual combinations of flavours - eg snail porridge (don't laugh - it is apparently very popular), and (b) researching the molecular compounds of dishes to better understand taste & flavour. His is a very scientific approach to cooking.

He was on a TV food program recently, with a recipe for roast beef - basically, brown the joint with a flame to seal it, then put it in the oven at 50 degrees C for 20 hours, which long cooking at low temperature gives very tender meat.

He gave an explanation for this. I wish I had paid more attention. He said the fibres of the meat are held together by collagen. He had a picture showing tangled lines. High temperature cooking locks this structure in making the meat tough. However, the cooking at low temperature relaxes and straightens the collagen, so that it softens -  a picture showed the lines straight - and the meat becomes tender to eat. I think he said the collagen became gelatine.

It crossed my mind at the time that this might be a solution to softening the plaque, though my thinking did not go much further than wondering if I stuck my penis in a hot oven for 20 hours, it might work wonders for the plaque, but what would it do to the rest of me.

Joshua may find that it is just the temperature that counts rather than the amount of infra-red penetration.

Joshua, one follow up question - were you aiming for a specific target temperature (at the nodule)?  I'm just curious as flexor's point about low heat cooking is interesting...

dcaptain

I was aiming for 103-105, since that is the range the report claims to be effective.  Honestly, I have no damn idea what temperature I am getting. i have been taking it as hot as possible without pain or burning. I would call it a deep very warm feeling.  :)

I am finding that this heat program works better if you give it a day or two of rest/break between heat treatments.

Is anyone else using heat in any form for treatment?

I was using a heating pad for awhile. On high it is 140.2 degrees. My kids came down from Cali. for the summer so I have been using it much. I will get back on it when they go home. I noticed a reduction in pain.. Another interesting side note with heat. I was using the Thacker formula. As I call it I was packed and wrapped. So I'm sitting there watching some t.v. enjoying the lovely stench. So out of curiosity I put the heating pad on while using the the Thacker's. After about 10 min. or so I started feeling the off feeling. It's was really hard to describe. Kind of a tingling maybe. It was like a bunch of little tiny ants charged with electricity moving throught the scar.  The feeling was unmistakable there may be something to this. I tried it a second time and the feeling wasn't quite the same but there was still a feeling. So my vote there is someting to the heat. Also a hot bath of about 110 degrees for really did nothing for me.  So Joshua do you like put a UV bulb in a lamp and sit with it between your legs ?

here's a quick little blurb I found on the subject.

Infrared Light Therapy—Photon Stimulation
The photon stimulator uses the healing properties of heat and light—heat photons in the near infrared range. This form of treatment has a wide variety of applications, ranging from musculoskeletal conditions to neurological disorders. It can be a highly effective intervention for chronic pain, and it accelerates healing time for all injuries. NASA studies have recently been published documenting that infrared light therapy speeds the healing process by 50%. Infrared waves gently promote circulation and healing by penetrating the tissue to a depth of 10 inches. Photon stimulation is now provided as standard treatment on submarines for the U.S. Navy Seals.

there honestly wasn't much else but the center specializes in Infrared therepy. The also specify Peyronies Disease. Here's the link.

http://www.healthmedicineinstitute.com/body.cfm?id=49#infrared

these are all the conditions
http://www.healthmedicineinstitute.com/body.cfm?id=8

I was wonder about the idea of infrared light and a VED. My thought is since the pump is clear plastic the light and warmth would penetrate. Hell even slather some thackers formula on before the pump. Does anyone think there would be any harm in that.  There are many times that I have wished I could heat up my junk while pumping. If the 2 by themselves could help what about together ?

Joshua I'm sorry to keep bugging you on this. I'm very interested in your treatment. So do you use like a desk lamp or something ? It there anything special that needs to be done?  I'm sure I'll figure out my own method but I would like to start by going what you are doing.

I attached a picture of the type of light you need. It has to be rated for a 250 watt bulb. You can get the one shown at Wal mart for under $10 bucks. I could only find the 250 watt infared bulb at Home depot. I hope this helps.
Joshua
P.S you are not bugging me at all. I just hope this helps you some.

Thank you so much The pic was cool. the only bulb I could find was 125 watt. it was also white. It does say that it is infrared. They had a spot for the 250 watt but they were out.

I suggest you get the 250w. Keep me updated on your progress. I have not done the heat treatment in about a week. I am giving it a rest. I feel strongly about using the heat applications and then giving it a day or two of rest.

Joshua: I suspect youmay need a lot less heat than you think.

The report stated that the temperature for the experiment was 39 - 40 degrees C. Body temperature is only 37 degrees C, so we are lookng at on between 2 and 13 degrees above body temperature.

Flexor:
My understanding was the plaque nodule itself must be raised to at least 39 - 40 degrees. I would assume that it takes good penetration, time and descent heat to penetrate the skin and warm the entire internal area of the plaque nodule. I think the infrared is great but I also think other forms of actual moist heat would be beneficial as well.  I feel a gentle warmth to the area of the skin will do little.  This is all guessing on my part. I can't back a word of it up.

I'm looking at the summary of the hyperthermia experiment listed by Joshua (reply #1).

Just concentrating on the non-Verapamil patients, this is what it reports.

Local heat was applied, at 39-40 degrees C, for 30 minutes. This was done twice per week for 5 weeks. Then there was a break of 4 weeks, followed by ten more weeks of twice-weekly treatment. The result was significantly reduced plaque size, reduced penile curvature, and an improvement in erectile function.

I wonder: what if you took a bath, of a depth to cover the plaque, and you sat in the bath for 30 minutes, topping it up to maintain a temperature of 39-40 degrees C; and if you did this twice a week for five weeks, then four weeks off, then twice a week for the next ten weeks; the only difference between this and the above, is that the above was local heating, whereas a bath is more general.

Question: would you get the same results ? Is that really all you would have to do to improve your Peyronies Disease ?

Quote from: flexor on August 30, 2005, 03:56:59 PM
I wonder: what if you took a bath, of a depth to cover the plaque, and you sat in the bath for 30 minutes, topping it up to maintain a temperature of 39-40 degrees C; and if you did this twice a week for five weeks, then four weeks off, then twice a week for the next ten weeks; the only difference between this and the above, is that the above was local heating, whereas a bath is more general.

Question: would you get the same results ? Is that really all you would have to do to improve your Peyronies Disease ?

Flexor, I have wondered the same.  Does the general heating of the legs etc from a bath or hot tub minimize the blood flow to the specific areas of plaque?  To me it seems unlikely that it would minimize the effect.  What percentage of Peyronies Disease patients are in a bath or hot tub 2 times a week for 30 minutes?  My guess, is a lot.  The only alternative is a shower or being a total crub in which case Peyronies Disease is a minor concern. :D

The problem is that we have sketchy information on the hyperthermia.  Was the heating done with sonic or microwave units that heat from the inside out?  Was the skin surface just maintained at 102F degrees for 30 minutes?

One final note of caution.  A recent study was concluded that analyzed scholarly papers at random.  It concluded that over 50% of scholarly papers draw faulty conclusion. (Maybe that study was wrong).  Reasons given included too small of a sample, and researcher bias.  Some of our information comes from the opening two paragraphs of studies that must be purchased before you can see the entire study. 

hawk stated:Was the heating done with sonic or microwave units that heat from the inside out?  Was the skin surface just maintained at 102F degrees for 30 minutes?

That is my point. If you read about hyperthermia that is exactly what they do. That is why I think a bath or plain hot applications will do NOTHING. An infrared heating lamp can penetrate at least a few inches. It is not even close to what they are doing to heat the plaque BUT I think it is enough that it will help over a period of time. That is why I pointed out that a 250w bulb is a must. Also you must increase your applications to at least every other day or so. I would also assume this is going to be a longer slower process but I feel it may help. If I think something may help, I do it. As long as it is safe. I have read about infrared heating applications. I suggest anyone interested bin this treatment do some personal research on infrared heat lamps for therapy and hyperthermia.

I think it is important to remember: you are not trying to heat the skin to 102-103 you are trying to penetrate and heat the plaque nodule to that temp.

Joshua

Quote from: Joshua on August 30, 2005, 07:26:52 PM
I think it is important to remember: you are not trying to heat the skin to 102-103 you are trying to penetrate and heat the plaque nodule to that temp.
Joshua[/color]

First, I don't know about you, but if I heat a few inches deep thru the diameter of my penis, I am likely to be starting a fire on the other side. :D  The tunica is only a small fraction of an inch from the surface.  How deep can plaque go?  Next, are we SURE they used microwave?  I suspect they could only measure the temperature of what they applied to the skin.  I have had microwave on the knee for 30 minutes 3 times a week and there was no way to even estimate the internal temperature other than telling me to let them know if felt too hot.  I am only guessing, but I think they are talking about skin temperature and suggesting 30 minutes at that temp will penetrate the needed half an inch to the deepest plaque.  I cannot imagine that 106 degrees would do damage however, because many heat treatments exceed that temperature.

Bottom line: And this is important, we are all guessing.  Someone, go buy the report and tell us.  I am certain that the report is copyrighted information and canNOT be posted on the forum.

Lord knows I'd apply concentrated tomato soup down there if it would help.   ;)  We absolutely are guessing - that is absolutely right. 

One question though, for a total heating-novice here...how does the infrared affect the dynamic of things?  I mean, my heating pad gets quite hot (over 125 degrees F), but if there's benefit to switching to infrared, I'll be at home depot before the store opens in the morning.  Sorry if this has been addresssed, I may have missed it....

So I was wondering,  now go with me here. I've been thinking alot about heat. I have used heating pads and ward baths . They feel great, I have never used either for any thereputic benefit. They idea of infrared heat makes sense too.
    Do you know those massagers that vibrate. Does anyone feel that the vibration could be a benefit ? I know it good hurt. My thought is maybe the vibration could break up some of the fibrin.
    Now on to my point. I was at Target yesterday. They have these vibrating/infrared heat massagers. So I'm thinking it doesn't seem half bad.
i was at Brookstone a month or so ago and they had one out for demo. It sure felt good on the back. It got pretty warm too.   

Guys, I'd be very careful about this.

Collagen (including the type involved in Peyronie's) is a protein.  Peyronies Disease is an unwanted accumulation of collagen molecules cross-linked in a chaotic way that makes them inelastic and unstretchable. All the cells of your body are also made up of protein molecules bonded in various ways.

In the cooking process described earlier, heat causes collagen bonds to break. But when cooking meat we aren't concerned about damage to the cells. It may be that there is a temperature range where the collagen bonds break but the protein structures in the surrounding cells aren't harmed.   But it seems to me that range might be narrow, and hard to determine except by destructive experiments. 

If heat is actually being successfully used to break up scar tissue, someone must have researched this carefully and I'm guessing that the units supplying the heat must be accurately calibrated.

If you go beyond this range and start to 'cook' the surrounding tissue it's going to become tougher and less elastic. Exactly what we don't want.

I could not agree more with j's  post.  I won't repeat it, only add that that full study cost around $30.  We read the teaser and we are off to experiment, not on rats, but our only penis.  I guess if it is totally non-functional, it makes some sense, but even then, why not buy the report.  Maybe its like the Headline that says "Is there a connection between Nutri-sweet and MS?"  You read the article in suspense only to find out the article shows no indication of a connection.  Some of these studies summaries are a draw.

To Nick, Please don't take offense, but let me ask a question.  If I think a vibrator would help, what use is that to you?  I know computer networks, how to shoot you between the eyes at 40 yards with a handgun, and how to train birds of prey.  Do you really care what my wild guess is on what an untried, unstudied physical treatment would do to YOUR penis?  That is too much like a movie star talking about foreign policy.  I don't think either of our opinions count.

Guessing, or taking my advice, rather than analyzing the entire study, is a scary way to save money.

PS: Nick, I think you know this, but I don't post as Hawk or Hawkman on the other forum.

I agree we need and should get the entire report. I will try and get it tomorrow. I spoke to my Dr and he said gentle safe use of a infared bulb should not damage tissue. However, he didn't think it would help Peyronies Disease either. I think it helps. I don't think it cures but I think gentle heat helps healing. 

Guys, I am sorry I have not yet pulled the report. I have been swamped at work. I will try and locate it and pull it this weekend. I likely will not be able to repost it but I can possibly forward it via PM to a few of you guys that are interested. No,  I don't think we are going to find a magic bullet in the report. I am simply hoping to find the heating source used for the studies. This study may have merit and possibly will not. However, using heat for an injury is not absurd. If used gently I can't see where it will make your skin tough. I am not talking cooking your penis here, like a piece of meat. I am talking gentle, warm, and penetrating infrared heat.  It is likely not a cure but could help to a small degree. I understand J and Hawk being skeptic but I think as dangerous as it is to assume something works or has merit without looking at it closer, researching it more, trying it if it appears safe, and keeping an open mind about these studies. I think it is just as dangerous for us to become complete skeptics about every single study and idea someone suggest to find some relief. I am not suggesting Hawk and J are guilty of this. However, I have seen this on other Peyronies Disease forums and it irritates me. Those poor guys on the BTC that were trying the Thackers formula were just blasted. Poor Old man has been ripped for years because he claims the VED helped him. Can anyone here prove it did not and can not?? . These guys need support not heckling.  We need to keep an open mind, research, and support each other. There is possibly never going to be a magic bullet/cure for Peyronies Disease but just various forms of treatments to lessen the impact of this disease. I have improved over the last two years by 85%. I know you can get better. I have done it. I am not cured but I am working and getting closer everyday to where I was.

Joshua, you make some valid points, as did Hawk and others.  I always hesitate to suggest this (years of being "blasted" onthe BTC has taken it toll) but as you read this or anyother study, I would like to suggest you read (print it out for reference ..as reading it on a monitor is much more difficult) Dr Mulhall's paper "interrepreting medical liaterature" on our APDA site.

Often the concern is not if it will work, but if it will harm.  Medically heat is used often, but then so is cold.  How and why it affects what ever it is used on is only part of the issue.  Infra red is great, but in the heat penetration (especially since it is hard to focus a large bulb to a specific area) what else is affected?..and how does that specific tissue, or vascular area, respond to prolonged heat even gentle?...lots of questions, none of which I have the answer for. I do know this, as a nurse I worked in rehab ..we used ultra sound (heating) on specific areas..while the "amt" of pulse (heat)was calibrated, we also were taught NOt to focus it in one area for more than a second or so...and to constantly keep it in motion...reason..direct heat for any longer than that could and would damage the surrounding tissue...Infra red is not the same thing I realize, but again, no real studies, and there is the rub!

The study itself is important, but so are the contraindications, and whether or not it was controlled, how long the study was done, follow up, and how many were involved..lots of stuff to consider.

Keep Safe,
Marti

Joshua:
Do you feel that the heat is responsible for the change more than anything else you were doing recently (and can you summarize what those other efforts were?)

Besides the apparent reduction of plaque, is there any objective change in curvature that you can describe?  (That bottom-line is too often ignored when people report "improvement".)

Thanks.
Kevin

My improvement is based on either the heat application, increase in l-carnitine, increase in l-arginine (i just started loading liguid l-arginine) or more natural reversal.

Following on Joshua's post about heat treatment, I got a 250 watt IR lamp. It is huge. The picture on the box suggests one use is to provide a warm environment for day-old chicks. Considering that all we want to do it hold the plaque within a two-degree range, two degrees above body temperature, I do not see how you can control the heat output of the lamp or make it sufficiently local. It seems overkill to me.

What I have found more acceptable is a small IR lamp which is sold for minor aches and pains, in a hand-held unit rather like a shower head. The lamp is 7 watts power, and the unit has two settings, a high one, which is quite a low heat, and a low setting which is even lower.

Normally you would put the unit against the skin to relieve muscle ache, and it gives out a pleasant warmth, rather than heat.

I have found that on the low setting, I can direct the heat quite locally at the plaque, and testing with a skin surface thermometer, I have been unable to get a reading above 41 degrees C.

I think there could be something in this therapy, and if anyone else is trying it, they may find that a small lamp as I suggest is more convenient than a monster unit from Home Depot.

Flexor:
I have not had a problem with the large IR unit. I got the idea from another site. www.thundersplace.com I admit it's an odd site but there are many intelligent guys/posts on that site. I found the site during some searching for IR uses. I am glad you are trying it. However, I winder if the unit you are using is getting enough heat into the plaque nodule. I know I am getting at least two inches of heat penetration.

cdm:

I've only been trying it a couple of weeks. The medical report was talking about a 19 week protocol (5 weeks on, 4 weeks  off, 10 weeks on) so it's too early to say. I'll keep you informed.

joshua;

My plaque is only just beneath the skin. I don't feel the need to go in deeper. That's why I am taking the skin surface temperature as being indicative of the plaque temperature

I'm using a VED after the heating session: I reckon that of the plaque has been softened by the heat, it should be in a good condition for a little stretching.

Ref Larry's post in the newsroom, I reckon that it's not only the disease that is an orphan. Everyone believes that big pharma will not do what is necessary to find a cure for Peyronies Disease, because there will not be a big enough payback. But there are a couple of reports out there that could be followed through, that also seem to have become orphans.

There was a report from France where the Leriche technique had been used. I cannot find any other mention of a "Leriche technique". They took ten men, and used a needle under the skinn to tear across the plaque. Five reported an improvement in curvature. They repeated the procedure on the remaining five. Three reported an improvement, and the other two went on to surgery.  This technique is not new – it's used for plaque on the palm for Dupeytrens. You would have through that an 80% improvement would have been worth following up by someone in a duplicate experiment, either to confirm or reject the findings, without a great deal of expense, but this report seems to be an orphan.

The same applies to the report about the improvement due to hyperthermia. You would think that a university or teaching hospital would be interested in trying this, without a great deal of expenditure, to confirm or reject, but the report seems doomed to wander around – interesting, positive, but apparently not worth anyone's while in the medical profession to follow up.

If either of these techniques were as effective as the reports claim, it could make a lot of difference to Peyronies Disease sufferers.

Has anyone else had success with the Infra red light? It sounds like something that has a good chance of working.

I have never heard of anyone having success like this before.
If anyone has any new feedback I would love to hear it.

Joshua, are you still having success?

Regarding the hyperthermal treatment, it must dilate the small blood vessels and increases circulation.  Maybe the increased blood flow helps the body repair the penis.  We all know it works with other muscle injuries. Soaking in a hot tub or using infrared can't hurt and might just help.  I wonder why doctors aren't recommending this as an early treatment method. 

Quote from: change2005 on November 01, 2005, 11:52:47 PM
Has anyone else had success with the Infra red light? It sounds like something that has a good chance of working.

I have never heard of anyone having success like this before.
If anyone has any new feedback I would love to hear it.

Joshua, are you still having success?

I must admit I have cut back on my heat treatments. I would estimate that I am down to once every two or three weeks. I plan resuming regular treatments soon. I think it was of huge benefit to me. I did see plaque nodule reduction during the time I was using it. I am assuming it was part of the reason. I did some light pulling and stretching of my penis while it was "under the light". I have reduced my curve to almost a natural curve. I have no pain. My erections are 100%. My main Peyronies Disease symptoms are now some indentions where the missing plaque was. I also feel like I may have had about 3/5 to1 inch loss in length.
Yes, I do recommend heat therapy.

Hey Joshua,

Were you also trying the VED with the above treatment? or just the infared treatment alone?

Steven

Quote from: steven on November 03, 2005, 12:27:32 AM
Hey Joshua,

Were you also trying the VED with the above treatment? or just the infared treatment alone?

Steven

I was not seriously using the VED. I did have one and played around with it every now and then. However, I am about to get serious with my VED treatment to attempt to eliminate the indentions.

Hi Folks,

My question is to Joshua.

You have tried the infrared light method to try and help disolve the penile scars for Peyronies Disease.
Would you recommend it and why? If not then why also?

Thank you for your time.

"If you think Education is expensive, you should try ignorance."

Quote from: learn4life on November 16, 2005, 11:30:36 AM
Hi Folks,

My question is to Joshua.

You have tried the infrared light method to try and help disolve the penile scars for Peyronies Disease.
Would you recommend it and why? If not then why also?

Thank you for your time.

"If you think Education is expensive, you should try ignorance."

Learn4life:

Yes, I would recommend it. I believe I realized many positive results from the treatment. It is time consuming and I recently strayed from my routine and I am currently not seeing any further improvement. However, I am preparing to start back within days. If you decide to try this treatment, please report back to us what benefits if any you notice.

Joshua

Joshua, how are the heat treatments going with the Infrared lamp? Still showing improvement?

I am trying the IR treatment. Have done the 4 weeks on, 4 weeks off, and am just into the 15 week run. No improvement yet, but not disheartened - still some time to run.

I am using a small hand lamp, supplied to run off the mains for heating aching muscles etc. The lamp is 7 watt - much lower power than Joshua's. It has a two-position switch, with a high and low heat. The unit does not get hot, just warm.

I lounge in bed, and the lamp rests on the penis. I run the lamp for 5 minutes at high, and then switch to low. I also have an electronic forehead thermometer, which I use to monitor the session. Put the end in contact wth my penis, click, and you get a surface reading. With the low wattage setting, the surface temperature during a 30 minute session does not go above 41 def C.

In fact it is a very convenient way of doing it, not messy, the temperature is continuous, and I can read a paper or book or listen to the radio while I do it. Just time consuming (a point no-one has mentioned is how boring some of these repetitive treatments can be - maybe that's why people don't stick with them).

I am also doing the VED exercises, because I reckon that if the heat does soften the plaque, I want it to reset in a stretched position, not how it was.

I'll report any change.

Flexor,

I am glad you are trying a form of the IR treatment. I know we discussed this before but I am still concerned that the internal areas of your plaque might not be getting enough heat to make a noticeable difference. The outer layer skin warmth and an internal deep penetrating temperature are different. I know exactly what kind of heat type source you are using. Good luck and keep us updated!

Joshua, I was very intrigued by your IR treatment comments and I have now done the 30-40 minutes 4 times (once every 3 days). I am using the same bulb as you and use between 12 and 18" as a good "warm" distance. After the first time, I most certainly noticed that "something" was going on with the marble-sized nodule. After the 4 treatments, I have seen some reduction in this nodule, but, more importantly to me, I have noticed a filling-in of an area that has been flat for the last 12 years, and overall, a much fuller erection.

Quote from: jaysum on November 26, 2005, 10:47:09 PM
Joshua, I was very intrigued by your IR treatment comments and I have now done the 30-40 minutes 4 times (once every 3 days). I am using the same bulb as you and use between 12 and 18" as a good "warm" distance. After the first time, I most certainly noticed that "something" was going on with the marble-sized nodule. After the 4 treatments, I have seen some reduction in this nodule, but, more importantly to me, I have noticed a filling-in of an area that has been flat for the last 12 years, and overall, a much fuller erection.

Jaysum:
Thanks for the update on your treatments with the IR. I feel this is one of the most effective home/self treatments we can utilize. It is inexpensive, appears safe, and has logic backing it.  I think this "process" breaks the collagen down and allows the body to repair the area. If you keep up with the treatments, I think/hope you will see similar results that I enjoyed. You should see the marble size nodule shrink away. However, you might be left with an indention in the area. I am working on "repairing" a small indention I had left after IR with ved treatments. I feel a slight indention is much safer and healthier than a piece of plaque. I also realized a complete return of my erection strength and reduction of curve. Keep up the treatments Jaysum and keep us informed. You may also want to add L-Arginine, high gamma Vit E, and L-carnitine to your supplements, if you are not already doing so.

Best Wishes and thanks for the post and great news!
Joshua

what is IR? Is it like ultasound?
and has anybody heard anything about the hyperthermia treatments?
thanks 8)

To Joshua:

I have a question for you that I'm hoping you can help me with, as you are basically the "heating expert" of the forum.  I've been using a heating pad, and honestly, it seems to be somewhat helpful.  The heating pad gets pretty warm, upwards of 100 degrees, and after about a 20 minute session, things seem the most "normal" (for lack of a better word) than they do at other times.  However, I'm wondering about switching to a IR/heating bulb, as I honestly have no idea as to whether I'm getting any IR heat from the pad.  I guess I don't know the difference.  Anyways, what I'm wondering is this....

When you used the 250 watt bulb, did you in any way get sunburned, or did it irritate the skin?  I'm just concerned about any irritation.

THANK YOU for any information you can share; your insight is most appreciated.

dcaptain

You do not have to worry about sunburn with infrared light/lamp. UV type light causes sunburn. Therefore, to answer your question no I never did get sunburn. I had the light back a foot or more and never even had redness when I was finished with a "treatment".  If you keep the light source far enough back and move it back in little increments as it feels :just too hot" than you should not see any irritation or redness of any kind. I have not.

I think the heating pad could help and certainly should not hurt. However, you are correct you are not getting any infrared light from a heating pad. The warmth or heat from any source might benefit.

However, I believe to have the potential to see real results with heat, you should try the IR lamp. The IR penetrates deep into the tissue or in our cases plaques. 

Keep us posted. I have private messages from several guys that are trying IR. I think I benefited from it.

Joshua

I'm new to the group, have had Peyronies Disease for about 10 years.I have been reviewing most of the posts and would like to offer a couple of comments/suggestions. First, on the IR lamps, I am currently using a small 100 watt bulb in the metal reflector pictured earlier. IR lamps are available at any pet store in wattages from 50, 60, 75, 100 up to 150. I paid about $8.00 for mine at Petsmart. You can also buy them online.
My second response/question, is that in my review of the posts I have not seen any reference to the use of counseling or psychiatric aid to address anyone's problems.
Have I just missed the topic line? I would like to hear your respones to this.

Joshua, you weren't lying about the heat.  I went out and bought a 250 watt IR bulb, not unlike the one you have pictured earlier, along with the standard "garage"-style clip lamp.  The entire contraption was $20 at Home Depot. 

I kept the bulb about 18 inches from the you-know-what, and I have to say that the heat definitely was different than that achievable from the heating pad.  Which isn't to say it was in any way hotter than the heating pad at that distance, but it seemed to be somewhat more "thorough" if that makes any sense.  Absolutely no irritation whatsoever. 

That is a very penetrating heat, no doubt. I suggest you cover the areas that don't need the heat. Concentrate on the plaque areas. Good Luck and please keep us updated. I am going to talk to Hawk about possibly adding a topic area just for heat treatments and move all of the topics into that area.
Joshua

Hey dcaptain,

Hows things going with the IR Bulb heat massage?

Hope it is making things better for ya :)

Just wondering if anyone can recommend a lamp for a 250w Infrared bulb?
I have my 250 sitting right here but still looking for a lamp that takes
this high power ...

Joshua and Hawk ... how have things been ? :)

Hey Learn4Life,

I have only used the IR bulb once.  Remarkably, it did not cure my Peyronies Disease.  I guess I'll have to try it again.   :P

Just kidding.  Will let the board know how it goes, provided I keep using it.

dcaptain

The infrared heat treatment might have benefited me. I realized a great reduction of plaque and curve while using it but I of course have no proof that it had anything to do with the heat treatments. I was very aggressive with the amount of heat and length of treatment. I suggest if you are not seeing any benefit to increase heat and time before you give up on it.

Roadblock:

I suggest you use an IR bulb. We have never been able to get our hands on the full report but what we did/can read, clearly states it was Infrared heat that showed whatever results they think/assume were from the heat treatments. I also THINK but obviously don't know and can't prove that IR has been helpful treatment addition to my Peyronies Disease. Please keep us informed of your treatment and good luck with it. I wouldn't think the heat is going to hurt and it might just help!

Joshua

I have read the posts in this section regarding infrared treatments. I just registered for this forum and this is my first post. I discussed this heat treatment approach with Dr. Thomas Lue, a leading Peyronies researcher at UCSF about a year ago. I am one of his patients with a scientific medical background. My interest then was if a low level laser treatment and been tried, since lasers can be very precise in deliverying heat to specific tissue depths. He said he had tried laser heat treatment in animal peyronies experiments and the laser completely dissolved the plaque to the point where it was totally undetectable. However, it did not fix the problem since the elasticsity did not return to the tunica albuginia even though the hard plaque was gone. So he dropped this approach. However this work was not done in humans so this approach still may be valid and I would certainly not want to discourage anyone from trying this, particularly in combination with something that may repair the damage.

Dr Lue currently thinks that peyronies disease is caused by inflammation run amok and the small tunica vessels are sealed off from the blood supply that would other wise flow in and repair the damage to the tunica. Along these lines, animal experiments are now being conducted to try drilling into the plaque at numerous points with small drills/lasers to allow blood to flow into the plaque site and see if that enables the body to repair/regenerate the tissue  Also being attemped is drilling into the plaque and then injecting various different medications/herbs/stem cells/enzymes/compounds into the drill sites to see what effect these may have. I will keep you posted on what ever results are achieved.

Pete

Yes, I think you have a good point about following up a heat treatment with a vacuum device or another treatment method. Obviously this was not done with animals. And that why I am encouraged to see people pursing this plaque heating approach, because it may very well provide a solution in combination with additional methods.

But the point is that whatever is done to lessen the plaque, I would suggest something else  be done in parrallel to improve blood flow into the damaged area in order for the body to regenerate the tissue and restore normal function. Any medication ,herb,  enzyme  or device that improves blood flow to small vessels is a candidate for this. Pentoxifyline, Ginko, Nattokinase, Ozone, and many others are candidates for a parallel treatment path when pursuing the a plaque heating technique.

~Pete

Hi All:

I have been reading through the boards catching up with older posts. I thought I would add what I could, and one thing I can do is acces complete medical reports, not just abstracts.

Here are a few more snippets of information from the Italian report on hyperthermia, esp regarding methods:

"Group A patients underwent local hyperthermia with the FLEXITERM CX 2000 (Nuova Pragma, Rome, Italy) device according to the following schedule: hyperthermia treatment reaching a local temperature of 39–40
C, lasting 30 min, twice a week for 5 weeks, for a total of 10 applications. A second cycle, with the same characteristics as the first, was repeated after a 1-month interval—for a total of 10 treatment sessions."

and

"The 'FLEXITHERM CX 2000' device has the following components:
(a) Heating is applied to the tissue with a microwave antennae 'head' operating at a frequency of 40.68MHz.
(b) Surface temperatures are maintained using a temperature-controlled bolus.
(c) Copper thermocouples are used to constantly monitor skin temperature.
(d) Computer-controlled software is used to maintain constant temperature.

A penile applicator with supports is used to maintain the penis in an extended position and to position the thermocouple on the plaque to be treated. The supports are also designed to protect the testicles from electromagnetic wave damage."

I cannot copy/paste the figures into this post, but the results are interesting for two reasons. First, the Verapamil injection group does not show improvement (seems like they used a different verapamil injection protocol, though), and 2), the heat therapy is better. This was obviously not blinded (hard to keep someone from knowing they are getting a shot when they are getting heat applied), but it is very intriguing.

Tim

Thanks for that information Tim.  Your contribution is appreciated.

Considering heat (minus this specific equipment) is free, and that it has no known side effects, coupled with the reported improvement, it seems like a safe complementary shot to whatever else one is or is not doing.  This seems like one of those, "what the hell, why not throw it in with what everything else I am doing" deals.

I'm thinking about actually trying this heat thing.  tim468, what sort of improvement was noted by the study you refer to? I've seen all sorts of studies that claim reduction in plaque volume, cessation of pain, and so on but in my opinion what really matters is objective reduction of curvature - and there, the results have been minimal. 

In contrast to iontophoresis or VED therapy, hyperthermia is something I can do on my own, at low cost, with off-the-shelf components: a digital thermometer with a remote-reading probe, and an infrared heat lamp. These things need to be industrial quality, not WalMart, but I have an engineering background so I know the difference.

Let me try to copy/paste the results here - previously the table format looked weird so I will have to do a little typping and reformatting...

"Results:

"All patients in both groups showed complete disappearance of the pain after a few treatment sessions, with a reduced pain score at the end of treatment. Hyperthermia significantly reduced plaque size in 60% of the patients treated. Indeed, the plaques disappeared completely in 10 patients (35%), seven patients (25%) showed a volumetric reduction of the plaques and the plaques remained stable in the other 12 patients (40%) (Table I and Figure 1).

"The effects of hyperthermia on penile curvature are shown in Table I and Figure 1. There was a significant reduction in penile curvature after two cycles of treatment. Recurvatum completely disappeared in two patients and all patients reported better 'elasticity' of the treated area, which resulted in an improvement in intercourse.

"Verapamil did not significantly reduce either plaque size or penile curvature (Table I, Figure 1). None of  the patients in Group A presented disease progression, whereas disease progression was observed in five cases (20%) in Group B. Following two treatment sessions, only Group A patients showed an improvement in sexual performance, including improved erection and increased mean EF domain scores. The effects of treatment on right cavernosal artery PSV, EDV and IR, outlined in Table I and Figure 2, show that hyperthermia and verapamil did not significantly modify these haemodynamic parameters.

"All patients tolerated hyperthermia treatment very well with no side effects. However, five patients (20%) submitted to verapamil infiltrations presented side effects, including mild loss of libido in three patients and mild epigastralgia in two. Despite these side effects, none of the patients withdrew from treatment."

"Discussion:

"In this study, the authors have shown that, in patients with Peyronie's disease, penile tissue can be safely, selectively, uniformly and effectively heated to 39–40
C using computercontrolled 40.68MHz microwaves, for an established period of time, according to the following characteristics: heating efficacy (ability to reach the required therapeutic temperature), homogeneity while heating the selected area, lack of over-heated zones, maintenance of the established temperature for the required time, selectivity (electromagnetic waves reach only the selected area) and ability to reproduce the same conditions for each treatment.

"Hyperthermia has two main mechanisms of action. The first consists of dilatation of the micro-vessels with increased arterial and venous blood flow in the treated area by generating heat with an increased amount of oxygen, red and white cell components to repair cell and tissue damage and better venous drainage to eliminate toxins and oedemas [15, 18]. The second consists of an increased rate of cell metabolism resulting from the increased temperature, with consequent improvement in repair of cell and tissue damage [22, 23].

"Hyperthermia, due to the positive effects previously outlined, is indicated mainly for a wide range of acute and chronic muscular and skeletal conditions due to vascular damage and resulting fibrosis involving tendons, ligaments and muscles [14–23].

"The advanced stage of Peyronie's disease represents a clinical problem for which various types of treatment, including extracorporeal shock wave treatment, have been used [11, 12, 27]. To the authors' knowledge, though, these were not controlled studies and these findings, therefore, cannot be considered valid. It should also be pointed out that, in 10–20% of patients, disease progresses despite treatment, thus precluding the possibility of surgically correcting the penile deformity.

"Patients suffering from advanced Peyronie's disease could reap remarkable benefits from hyperthermia. On the one hand, the increased blood flow is responsible for a sort of 'gymnastics' of the penile vessels, with improved erection. On the other hand, the increased possibility of repairing cell and tissue damage could result in lysis or modification of the plaques as well as the fibrosis related to this condition. In regards to the analgesic effect, hyperthermia acts on the nerve endings, inducing production of endorphins and reducing afferent fibre transmission [19, 20].

"Hyperthermia may lead to changes in cell metabolism and treatment at a high temperature (45C) can result in irreversible cell damage, even cell necrosis, as reported in the literature [16–18]. However, at a lower temperature (39–42
C), provided the time of heating is limited, changes in cell metabolism do not lead to permanent cell damage. Mild heating promotes the above-mentioned effects that result in a beneficial therapeutic action. Indeed, it has been reported that damage incurred in tissue is related not only to temperature but also to length of heating time [28].

"A temperature of 39–40
C, with a limited time of heating, has been chosen in the present treatment protocol to avoid the risk of possible cell damage involving the underlying anatomical structures, with particular attention being focused on the penile neurovascular bundle and urethra. The plaques in the penis can never be more than a few mm from the surface and even the deepest are only a few mm between the albuginea and the skin. Therefore, the surface temperature is similar to the deep plaque temperature.

"The choice of a temperature of 39–40
C was based upon that used in studies carried out in the orthopaedic setting in which no adverse effects on the tissues had emerged and only beneficial effects had been recorded. The majority of investigations or studies on Peyronie's disease are prospective series without controls and have been criticized for poor patient characterization [11, 12, 27]. The present study was a controlled study in which verapamil-treated patients acted as controls. Use of a positive control (verapamil infiltrations) was preferred to placebo, since these proved to be the most effective in the case of fibro-calcific scars. Also, verapamil infiltrations currently represent the treatment of choice in patients with advanced Peyronie's disease [12].

"Patients were observed 6 months after the last treatment. This period of follow-up was a deliberate choice, as the improvements observed would be due to the effects of treatment and not to spontaneous changes in severity of disease, as may occur. Qualitative data (pain reduction and disease progression) were analysed before and after treatment using Fisher test. Quantitative data (plaque size, penile curvature and mean scores of EF domain, PSV, EDV, IR) were analysed before and after treatment using
Student t-test.

"Hyperthermia significantly reduced plaque size and penile curvature (Table I, Figure 1) and increased mean scores of EF domain (Table I, Figure 1), while verapamil did not cause any change in these parameters. Haemodynamic parameters were not significantly modified in either group (Table I, Figure 2). Hyperthermia caused significantly fewer side effects than verapamil infiltrations and was significantly more effective in preventing disease progression. There were no significant differences between the two groups in the reduction of pain during erection.

"Use of hyperthermia in andrological disorders, which has not previously been reported in the literature, showed encouraging results, suggesting that hyperthermia is an effective conservative treatment for advanced Peyronie's disease because it is well tolerated and causes no serious side effects. It is of considerable benefit in reducing pain, plaque size and penile curvature and it increased the possibility of coitus in a significant number of patients. Moreover, considering the mechanism of action and results obtained, hyperthermia could also play an important role in the treatment of erectile dysfunction.

"The beneficial effects observed in this investigation were based upon direct observations on the patients during the treatment. This study described a completely new treatment approach and the 'recognized mechanism', as already pointed out, is 'the increased ability in repairing cell and tissue lesions with lysis or modification of the plaques and fibrosis'.

"The beneficial effect of the hyperthermia treatment was documented via direct patient observation and assessment. A completely new treatment approach was described, that suggests microwave heat at a moderate thermal dose can increase the cell repair in plaque formation and in fibrosis. Studies involving more patients and longer follow-up are necessary to determine the optimal thermal dose, treatment protocol and efficacy level."

References:

1. Gelbard MK. The natural history of Peyronie's disease. Journal of Urology 1990;144:1376–1379.
2. Davis C Jr. Microscopic pathology of Peyronie's disease. Journal of Urology 1997;157:272–275.
Hyperthermia and Peyronie's disease 373
3. Nachtsheim DA, Rearden A. Peyronie's disease associated with an HLA Class II antigen HLA DQ5 implying
an autoimmune aetiology. Journal of Urology 1996;156:1330–1334.
4. Ralph DJ, Brooks MD, Bottazzo GF, Pryor JP. The treatment of Peyronie's disease with tamoxifen. British
Journal of Urology 1992;70:648–651.
5. Gelbard MK, Linder A, Kaufman JJ. The use of collagenase in the treatment of Peyronie's disease. Journal of
Urology 1985;134:280–283.
6. Giannotti P, Mancini P, Cuttano MG, Pistolesi MD, Ponti F, Morelli G, Ciardini E, Sicolo M, Farina F,
De Maria M. ESWL in the treatment of Peyronie's disease: Preliminary results. Journal of Endourology
1993;7(Suppl.1).
7. Riedl C, Pfluger H. Iontophoretic treatment of Peyronie's disease. Journal of Urology 1995;153:972.
8. Cavallini G, Biagiotti G, Kovereck A, Vitali G. Oral pronionyl-l-carnitine and intraplaque verapamil in the
therapy of advanced and resistant Peyronie's disease. BJU International 2002;89:895–900.
9. Carson CC, Coughlin PW. Radiation therapy for Peyronie's disease: is there a place? Journal of Urology
1985;34:684–686.
10. Incrocci L, Wijnmaalen A, Slob AK, Hop WC, Levendag PC. Low dose radiotherapy in 179 patients with
Peyronie's disease: Treatment outcome and current sexual functioning. International Journal of Radiation
Oncology, Biology & Physics 2000;47:1353.
11. Hauck EW, Mueller O, Bschleipfer T, Schmelz U, Diemer T, Weidner W. Extracorporeal shock wave therapy
for Peyronie's disease: Exploratory meta-analysis of clinical trials. Journal of Urology 2004;171:740–745.
12. Belgrano E, Breda G, Carmignani G, Giannotti P, Maver A, Mirone V, Soli M. Induratio penis plastica: Stato
dell'arte. Ospedaletto (PI): Pacini Editore; 1999.
13. Pontalti R, Cristoforetti L, Valdagni R, Antolini R. Absorption rare density computation in macrowave
hyperthermia by the finite-difference time-domain method. Physical Medicine Biology 1990;35:891–904.
14. Marino C, Mauro F. Razionale biologico dell'Ipertermia come modalita` terapeutica nella cura dei tumori.
Microonde, SMA ed. 1990;10:1–4.
15. Lehmann JF, Dundore DE, Esselman PC, Nelp WB. Microwave diathermy: Effects on experimental muscle
hematoma resolution. Archives of Physical Medicine Rehabilitation 1983;64:127–129.
16. Sichirollo AE, Zonca G, Ogno G. Quality control of a hyperthermia system. Advances in Experimental Medical
Biology 1990;267:161–166.
17. Noonan TJ, Best TM, Seebor AV, Garrett WE. Thermal effects on skeletal muscle tensile behaviour. American
Journal of Sports Medicine 1993;21:517–522.
18. Stryckler T, Malone T, Garrett WE. The effect of passive warming on muscle injury. American Journal of
Sports Medicine 1990;18:141–145.
19. Leon SA, Asbell SO, Edelstein G, Arastu HH, Daskal I, Sheenan S, Plunkett DH, Gutttmann GG, Packel AJ,
Leon O. Effects of hyperthermia on bone. Heating rate patterns induced by microwave irradiation in bone and
muscle phantoms. International Journal of Hyperthermia 1993;9:69–75.
20. Diederich CJ, Stauffer PR. Pre-clinical evaluation of a microwave planar array applicator for superficial
hyperthermia. International Journal of Hyperthermia 1993;9:227–246.
21. Leden UN, Herrick JF, Wakim KG, Krusen FH. Preliminary studies on the heating and circulating effects of
microwaves (radar). British Journal of Physical Medicine 1947;10:177–184.
22. Giombini A, Casciello G, Di Cesare MC, Di Cesare A, Dragoni S, Sorrenti D. A controlled study on the effects
of hyperthermia at 434MHz and conventional ultrasound upon muscle injuries in sport. Journal of Sports
Medicine & Physical Fitness 2001;41:521–527.
23. Ueberle F. Shock wave technology. In: Siebert W, Buch A, editors. Extracorporeal shock waves in
orthopaedics. Berlin: Springer; 1997. pp 59–87.
24. Rosen RC, Riley A, Wagner G, Osterloh IH, Kirkpatrick J, Mishra A. The International Index of Erectile
Function (IIEF): A multidimensional scale for assessment of erectile dysfunction. Urology 1997;49:822–830.
25. Kelami A. Autophotography in evaluation of functional penile disorders. Urology 1983;21:628–629.
26. Beers MH, Fletcher MB. The Merck manual. 17th ed. West Point: Merck and Co.; 1999.
27. Levine LA, Goldman KE, Greenfield JM. Experience with intraplaque injection of verapamil for Peyronie's
disease. Journal of Urology 2002;168:621–626.
28. Dewhirst MW, Viglianti BL, Lora-Michiels M, Hanson M, Hoopes PJ. Basic principles of thermal dosimetry
and thermal thresholds for tissue damage from hyperthermia. International Journal of Hyperthermia
2003;19:267–294.

Here are the results, sort of in tabular form:
****************************************************************************
                                     Before                         After                          p value
Mean variable (SD) 
                                 A            B               A             B           Before vs      Before vs      A vs B
                                                                                            after A        after B

Penile curvature      50.8 (2.9)   49.8 (2.7)   22.4 (2.9)   47.9 (2.9)    <0.01          NS            <0.01
Plaque size, mm2     36.8 (3.8)   36.6 (3.4)   21.3 (6.1)   35.8 (3.6)    <0.01          NS            <0.01
Mean scores of
EF domain               22.1 (7.1)   22.4 (6.8)  25.5 (3.9)    22.8 (6.4)   <0.01          NS             <0.01
Right cavernosal
artery PSV, cms1   35.5 (4.3)   35.3 (4.4)  35.6 (4.6)    35.5 (4.5)      NS           NS              NS
EDV, cm s1           5.3 (3.5)      5.4 (3.5)    5.4 (3.7)      5.6 (3.8)     NS           NS              NS
RI, %                      85 (10.2)     84 (10.3)  84.6 (10.8)    83.6 (10.7)  NS           NS              NS
Left cavernosal
artery PSV, cms1   35.7 (4.4)    35.6 (4.3)  35.4 (4.6)     35.2 (4.7)    NS           NS               NS
EDV, cm s1             5.5 (3.3)      5.6 (3.3)   5.4 (3.8)      5.5 (3.7)    NS           NS               NS
RI, %                       83 (9.1)        82 (9.2)    81.9 (9.4)    83.4 (9.7)   NS          NS                NS
**************
NS¼not significant, PSV¼Peak systolic velocity, EDV¼End-diastolic velocity, RI¼Resistivity index.

What I think it means...

1) Arterial blood flow is not the issue and is not affected, but placque size and curvature is affected

2) How the heat is applied might make a big difference, and heat can have deleterious side effects, such as decreasing fertility by exposing gonads to direct heat.

3) The stats are OK, not great. They did not correct for multiple comparisons (called the Bonferroni correction), which makes the "power" of the study less - AND since the effects of verapamil were less than published data suggest should be seen, this increased the sensitivity of the results. IOW, if they had seen a good result in those injected with Verapamil, then the heat treated group would not have been statistically different from them.

The main thing I want to see is how heat could be safely applied without using their gizmo - which I have looked for online and cannt find.

Tim

Tim,

Thanks for a huge contribution.  I have inconsistantly used hot water when showering in the form of a plastic glass filled with water as hot as i could stand it for 5-10 minutes.  It seemed to help but the warning about possible damage is a wake-up call that is very valuable information.  I took the liberty to bold that warning for those that often fail to read long reports.  I also gave your post a descriptive subject line.  I hope you don't mind.

You said

QuoteIf they had seen a good result in those injected with Verapamil, then the heat treated group would not have been statistically different from them.

While that is true, even at the same rate or chance of improvement, who would not prefer hyperthermia to Verapalim Injections.  As a physician, do you have a guess why is this not more widely used.  Is it simply a lack of education or do economics factor in?

QuoteWhile that is true, even at the same rate or chance of improvement, who would not prefer hyperthermia to Verapalim Injections.  As a physician, do you have a guess why is this not more widely used.  Is it simply a lack of education or do economics factor in?

I think the main issues are as follows:

1) Hyperthermia does not make that much "sense", and it falls into a more non-traditional form of therapy. I believe that doctors often (irrationally) reject some ideas if they are not "scientific" enough.

2) This is a recent study and is not too well disseminated yet.

3) It was published ina second tier journal, and the discussion is spectacularly weak ("the increased blood flow is responsible for a sort of 'gymnastics' of the penile vessels"?????). Vague ruminations about "improved blood flow" do not at all give us a sense of physiology, or why it might work.

4) This falls into the category of a "good first report". How many good first reports have those of us watching this literature seen over the years? First it was POTABA, then vitamin E, then it was ultrasound, then it was the nest thing. Each great new thing being replaced by the next great thing - but none of them panning out. Just look at the "gold standard" of verapamil injections - no better with them!

A good rule of thumb, no matter how promising something looks, is to remember that just because a paper is the latest paper, does not mean it is the best paper writtin on a topic.

I like the idea of the tube of warm water - that could be pretty easily regulated to a set temperature. For instance, one could fill a tub of water to the desired temperature and sit in it, or use a VED to drwa up a flask-worth of hot water to soak just the penis in (and replace it as it cools). I am sure we can come up with all sorts of good ideas here...

I can tell you, though, that we will do things to ourselves that no Institutional Review Board would ever allow a doctor to try on a patient because of theoretical risks!

Tim - by the way, all the numbers that ended in "zero" and which were followed by a end-parenthesis sign, look like smily faces in the data!

Thanks for the detailed reply.  I note that the difference between a therapeutic effect and "irreversible" cell damge is about 5 degrees C. Scary, but probably manageable somehow even without the fantastically expensive microwave unit.

Your point 4 is of course spot-on.  This one could sink like a stone because of the potential liablility issue in offering this treatment. Which is probably why the experiment was done in Italy anyway.

As far as hyperthemia "making sense", in some previous discussions I've seen it was suggested that it might be breaking some of the molecular bonds in the cross-linked collagen, the way that cooking makes meat tender.

If the goal is simply to break those bonds or get them to realign longitudinally, then I still wonder why traction hasn't be seriously tried.  It appears that Dupuytren's tissue can be stretched, by using a rather medieval-looking device called the Digit Widget: http://www.handbiolab.com/digitwidget.html

j, let me know if you proceed with the possibility of designing your own thermal device(therapy). I basically went off of one of Joshua's previous post's of his success with Infrared lamp therapy and have been doing this for about 2 weeks. After reading the long recent post involving microwave heat therapy, I am somewhat concerned of possible cell damage. I am currently using a 250 watt infrared bulb and fixture in which it is placed about 10-12 inches from base of penis where plaque is. I am covering all other areas for protection. This is for 15-20 minutes. Afterwards, I apply my Topical T.V. and massage according to instructions. I have noticed far less pain and firmer, harder erections with an increase in head size of about 1/4". I will be asking my Uro for a prescribed VED and getting with Old Man on a regimen as well. Because of my concern, I may discontinue the Heat lamp therapy until we can come up with more specific answers, ie, distance, time, temperature, etc. However,like many of us, I am willing to try just about anything. Zig the Twig out

zigwyth, that part about "irreversible cell damage" really got my attention too.  As my first step I plan to locate a digital thermometer with remote probe from some industrial/technical supplier - it should be accurate within 1 degree C.  Then I'll look for a small, well-constructed IR lamp. 

It's possible to take this further and put together a system with a safety shutoff feature that turned off the lamp if the probe got to 45 degrees.  Obviously I'd prefer to see some more, and better quality, information about hyperthermia treatment before investing time and money in this, but if I find I can do it safely for a couple hundred dollars, I may go ahead. 

I am pretty convinced that any heat source is as good as Infrared (IR).  Go to your dollar store and buy a cheap flexible plastic glass that is easy to bend.  Run hot water in it long enough to heat the plastic glass and then fill it with hot water about a degree hotter then you want. Then stand in the shower or on a towel to deal with very minor dripping.  Now, simply lower yourself into the glass and then seal the rim against your pubic area.  With a thermometer you can easily regulate the water temp right out of the facet.  As it starts to cool, refill the the glass.  It will only take a couple refills especially if the glass hold a decent quantity of water.  When done, quickly dry to prevent cooling from evaporation.  A VED can be used in place of a glass but some VEDs may leak since the air expulsion vents are designed to prevent an inward flow of air not an outward flow.

Advantages over IR: The entire penis is warmed.  During the acute stage  of Peyronies Disease, there is no way of knowing where the very first signs of plaque are developing.  If you have Peyronies Disease activity on more than one side of the penis it is difficult to hit all areas with IR unless you have multiple IR lights or do multiple sessions.   You can exactly regulate the temperature of the heat source so there is no guessing what the surface temperature of the skin actually is.

Disadvantages : Don't let your friends know you do this or they will hesitate to drink from your glasses.  :D

PS: A hand-held shower massage (without the massage part activated) also work.  You just regulate the temperature,  but you will will use a lot of hot water in 20 minutes.

Using hot water is an excellent idea. It has a solid safety factor, and is low-cost.  I see a couple of disadvantages.

First, the study we're looking at used a very narrow temperature range. Trying to get a glass of water exactly to 40C might take a lot of fussing. 

Second, it requires me to sit in the bathroom for half an hour. After 8 pointless months of TV, I've sort of had it with that scene.

Maybe a small flexible "water bottle" would do the job, but I'm leaning toward an IR lamp.  That would let me at least sit back and read something during the treatment. I just need to get things set up so there's no chance I overheat without realizing it.  I have a plan in mind, will keep you posted.

Thanks Hawk for your input, and no offense please, but I agree with j on this one. I see advantages and disadvantages in both options but I would prefer relaxing in bed. j, I am in industrial equipment maintenance so I will start looking for pricing/options on digital thermometers w/probe and shut-off timer w/ thermocouple perhaps. Also,  perhaps a small air compressor to deliver the pneumatics to the robotic arm I'm designing that will slowly rotating the penis kind of rotisserie style to cover all areas. ;D Haha-Sorry, sometimes my imagination runs wild. You know Black and Decker stole alot of my ideas. Anyway I think a sense of humor has been helping me with this condition. Zig the Twig out

I have always assumed that IR light therapy "penetrates" deeper into the tissue that other heat therapies. I know it is often used by physical therapist. I will research this theory a little and report back. As I have noted before o the forum, I have what I feel was success With this treatment. I of course can not prove it was IR that did it but I know for certain I did see improvement while using IR.

Zig, I just ordered one of these:

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=215589

It comes with a thermocouple probe. It also has a USB interface which could be useful. Since I'll be sitting near my PC I could write a program to monitor the temperature and beep if it gets out of range - then I wouldn't have to be constantly watching the meter.  If I think it's worthwhile I could even get a PC-controlled outlet box to power the lamp and try extending the  program into a closed-loop controller.

j, that looks like the ticket. I work on annealing ovens in the glassblowing semiconductor industry and we  use a 4-20 ma signal with closed loop programming. Now if you,Joshua,I and anyone else wanting to research more data on this in order to hopefully avoid possible cell damage, I am willing to go full steam ahead with IR therapy. Keep up the good work and correspondence. I thought I was alone until I found this site. I have renewed faith in possibly having a future relationship again one day.Zig out

zig, first I have to say again I'm not an MD, just a guy like you with some technical experience. I did some websearching on hyperthermia and the consensus seems to be that normal healthy tissue isn't damaged below 45C.  Cancer cells seem to be vulnerable a couple of degrees below that, which is why hyperthermia is used on tumors. The temperatures in the Italian Peyronies Disease study were 39-40C which, as I understand it, is just below the level of hyperthermia treatments for cancer. In other words they used a very conservative temperature and I intend to be sure I don't go above that.

My initial heat source is going to be a 150W ceramic IR emitter. It's like an IR bulb except the element is encapsulated in a  ceramic (looks like porcelain).  They're sold in pet stores for use in keeping reptiles as pets.   Here's a link:
  http://www.petco.com/Shop/Product.aspx?familyid=5003

At the pet shop you can also get a socket/hood assembly with a ceramic base to handle the heat. I have the thing set up next to me right now, keeping my hands warm as I'm at the keyboard here in my basement.  I'm not sure it's putting out enough heat to do the job but will find out soon -the meter/thermocouple will probably arrive Monday.

I'm going to be real cautious with this -  I'll be trying it first on some other area of my body, like a thumb.

Whether or not this works - and my expectations are zero - I'm also thinking more about the VED approach and I'm thinking about making one, rather than starting that endless dance with urologists and insurance companies again.

Well, I see the forum's talent, creativity, and the OCD juces or flowing. :D

J,

You are out of my league on this.  My shallow knowledge is tied to some potentiometers hooked in to an icubation system for eggs.  Will your unit actually control the temperature or just monitor the temerature and alert you if it is too high?

Hawk, Depending on how far I decide to go with this, there would be 3 stages. Initially I'm just using a hand-held meter with a thermocouple (temperature probe) which I have in contact with the area being heated. I watch the meter carefully and fiddle with the lamp.

Next stage would be to use the meter's USB interface and write a program to continuously read and monitor the temperature. If it drifts too high or too low, a warning tone is played. That much is pretty easy, it's the sort of thing I do in my work all the time.  In fact the meter might come with software that already does it.

Final stage would be to get a PC-controlled AC outlet box (off-the-shelf) that lets my program turn the IR emitter on and off while monitoring the temperature. The goal would be to tune my program so it brings me up to temperature, keeps me there for 30 minutes and shuts off. However, that would not be as easy as it sounds because this simple IR emitter isn't variable, just on-or-off, and my distance from it isn't precise.  A lot of tweaking would be required. But if I end up doing this for months, it might be worthwhile.

J,

This is my question.  What is the chance that the probe would absorb a different amount of heat energy than your skin and the two would be at different temperatures? 

A reasonable question.  I'm going to wrap myself, and the probe, in a thin elastic bandage. The probe's temperature can't be much different than my skin's if the 2 are in contact and covered by the bandage. According to what I've read, infrared heating doesn't penetrate very much, being very close to visible light. Microwave radiation behaves very differently and penetrates deeply, hence its use in cooking.

Remember, I'm going to try this extensively on some other, more expendable,  part of my body first.   

For the benefit of anyone else who might be reading this - I'm not a medical professional, I'm trying this at my own risk, and I do NOT recommend that anyone else try it. 

Percy - Sorry, my msg. took off before I could make an entry - Re your question on the IR lamp, they are available at most pet shops in wattages from 50 to 200 watts. They are used to provide sunlight/heat for reptile cages (I know there's a pun in there somewhere) 100 watts is what I'm using and it seems to help.
Hope this helps.
swbasil

Quote from: swbasil on August 22, 2006, 06:28:24 PM
Percy - Sorry, my msg. took off before I could make an entry - Re your question on the IR lamp, they are available at most pet shops in wattages from 50 to 200 watts. They are used to provide sunlight/heat for reptile cages (I know there's a pun in there somewhere) 100 watts is what I'm using and it seems to help.
Hope this helps.
swbasil

I'm not IRadicating my dick yet......:)

Did this option just appear......?

I'm into big snakes........

Mr.BLBC

Hi .. This is Hopeful- How does it help?- WHat degree curve do yuou have- has it improved- please let me know protocol..

Thank you,

Hopeful

Quote from: swbasil on August 22, 2006, 06:28:24 PM
Percy - Sorry, my msg. took off before I could make an entry - Re your question on the IR lamp, they are available at most pet shops in wattages from 50 to 200 watts. They are used to provide sunlight/heat for reptile cages (I know there's a pun in there somewhere) 100 watts is what I'm using and it seems to help.
Hope this helps.
swbasil

"Subject line on this post edited for easy reference"

We have been using different types of heat around here for a while with the same results you mention.  Many of us "warm up" prior to pumping or traction.  Just be careful when raising your body temp (heat stroke).

Of course when comparing putting a heating pad on your privates to stretching into pretzel-like positions with a class of hot sweaty women clad in tights.........hmmmmm......... that would be classified as a NO-BRAINER.  ;)

::::looking over my shoulder before my wife "brains" me::::

Liam

ComeBackid asked if traction helped any one. 

Yes, it and l-arginine and heat got rid of the turtle effect.  Then my cheap traction unit ($50) broke.  But, no more turtle.  Who knows what if I'd bought a good one.

Hi again!

I found this reference which discusses penile skin temperature:

http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v14/n6/full/3900933a.html (http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v14/n6/full/3900933a.html)

QuotePenile skin temperatures have been used for the evaluation of impotence and male erectile responsiveness to aging.5,6 Solnick reported that the mean surface temperature 1 inch proximal to the dorsal coronal ridge of the flaccid penis for old and young groups was around 91.7°F (33.2°C) to 92.8°F (33.8°C), respectively.5 A recent report by Bleustein demonstrated a normal glans temperature to be 31.8°C.7

This means that the skin temperature of the shaft is about 7°F below body temperature. The area where plaque develops will be slightly warmer, but it sounds like that it could still be say 5°F below body temperature. To me - an old industrial chemist - this sounds like it might play a very big part in controlling some of the sophisticated biochemical reactions that are discussed on this forum. I think that the plaque forms in cooler areas is a significant factor in Peyronies Disease (and maybe in Duputeren's too). Obviously it is not the only factor, otherwise, all men would contract Peyronies Disease, but I would bet on it playing a part.

Although I cannot find anything on this forum which brings reaction temperature into the biochemical pathways, there is a reference for treatment of Peyronies Disease using hyperthermia:

QuoteDepartment of Urology, University of Rome 'La Sapienza', Rome, Italy.

Objective: Previous experience in the treatment of plaque with hyperthermia in orthopaedics led the authors to investigate the effectiveness of this approach in patients with Peyronie's disease.Patients and methods: The study population comprised 60 patients (aged 36-76 years) with advanced Peyronie's disease. Patients were divided into two groups (A and B), with 30 in each. Group A patients underwent local hyperthermia treatment, with 30-min treatment sessions twice a week for 5 weeks. Patients received a total of 10 applications, which reached a local temperature of 39-40 degrees C. A second cycle was repeated after a 1-month interval for a total of 20 treatment sessions. Group B patients were treated with intra-plaque infiltrations using 10?mg verapamil; they received one infiltration once a week for 3 months. Differences between the two groups, as well as between variables (before and after treatment), were analysed using Student t-test and Fisher test.Results: Hyperthermia significantly reduced plaque size and penile curvature and led to an increase in mean scores of erectile function (EF) domain, while verapamil had no such effects. Haemodynamic parameters were not significantly modified in either group. Hyperthermia caused significantly fewer side effects than verapamil infiltrations and was significantly more effective in preventing disease progression. There were no significant differences between the two groups in terms of pain reduction during erection.Conclusions: Results of this study stress the efficacy of hyperthermia in the treatment of advanced Peyronie's disease.

This suggests that there may be something in this approach, although it would be better if, instead of attending a clinic for treatment, a 'willy warmer' could be devised to wear for several hours per day. This would need to have temperature control with a safety cut out of course. In the absence of such a product however, I believe that skiers and winter sportsmen just wear a woolen sock type of willy warmer - it might help, it would be cheap, washable  and harmless (itchy perhaps).

Regards,
Percival

I still think the whole Hyperthermia thing sounds plausible.

Liam

If the root cause of Peyronies happens to be inflammation as Lue seems to assert, then hyperthermia might very well ease the inflammation.

this dates back to 2005, it might therefore have been posted before:

Use of local hyperthermia as prophylaxis of fibrosis and modification in penile length following radical retropubic prostatectomy
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/tandf/thth/2005/00000021/00000004/art00006?crawler=true

Conclusions : Results of this study demonstrate a mild but statistically relevant reduction in penile shortening following low-grade, externally delivered penile hyperthermia, thus confirming the efficacy of this approach in preventing penile shortening caused by post-ischaemic fibrosis.

I vaguely remember reading a post from someone on the board that was using a self-built hyperthermia-device at home, what happenend to him?

I tried applying Tiger Balm for a week and tolerated it very well - slight burning but nothing serious. Regret to say that it did nothing for Peyronies Disease, but my pants are now safe from moths.
Tiger Balm is a thick grease and not very pleasant to use. I plan to try Deep Heat this week - a product based on methyl salicylate.
Regards,
Percival

Has anyone tried or have information on the affect of ice on Peyronies Disease?  We have discussed heat.  I tried Google and found references to reducing swelling in cases of trauma.  Nothing in particular.  Just a thought.

I'm back on this heat thing  ;)

QuoteUse of local hyperthermia as prophylaxis of fibrosis and modification in penile length following radical retropubic prostatectomy
Authors: Perugia, G.1; Liberti, M.1; Vicini, P.1; Colistro, F.2; Gentile, V.1

Source: International Journal of Hyperthermia, Volume 21, Number 4, June 2005 , pp. 359-365(7)

Publisher: Taylor and Francis Ltd

< previous article | next article > | View Table of Contents 



       
Key:  - Free content  - New Content  - Subscribed Content  - Free Trial Content


Abstract:

Objective : The aim of the study was to evaluate the effectiveness of local hyperthermia in reducing possible penile shortening following radical retropubic prostatectomy. Patients and methods : The study population comprised 40 patients, aged 52–74 years, submitted to radical retropubic prostatectomy. Patients were divided into two groups of 20. In Group A, patients were submitted to local hyperthermia 3 weeks after surgery, three times a week, with treatment lasting 30?min. Patients received a total of 10 applications, which reached a local temperature of 39–40°C. A second cycle was repeated after 1 month. In Group B, patients were submitted only to post-operative follow-up once a month. Penile length was measured in all patients both before and 3 months after surgery in the 'stretching phase' from the pubo-penile junction to the tip of the glans. Results : In Group A patients (hyperthermia treatment), no variation in penile length was observed in 16 cases (80%), while the reduction ranged from 0.5–1.5?cm in four cases (20%). In Group B, 12 patients (60%) showed a reduction in penile length ranging from 0.5–2.5?cm, while penile length remained unchanged in eight patients (40%). Conclusions : Results of this study demonstrate a mild but statistically relevant reduction in penile shortening following low-grade, externally delivered penile hyperthermia, thus confirming the efficacy of this approach in preventing penile shortening caused by post-ischaemic fibrosis.
Keywords: Penile shortening; prostate; cancer; radical; retropubic; prostatectomy; hyperthermia; electromagnetic waves

Document Type: Research article

DOI: 10.1080/02656730500133827

Affiliations: 1: Department of Urology, University of Rome 'La Sapienza', Rome, Italy 2: Hyperthermia Unit, Regina Elena Hospital, Rome, Italy

Source: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/tandf/thth/2005/00000021/00000004/art00006

Handwarmers for hyperthermia......hmmm.......there's an idea.  ;)

QuoteMasataro Hiruma1 , Akira Kawada1, Masami Yoshida2 and Michiko Kouya3

(1)  Department of Dermatology, National Defense Medical College, 3-2 Namiki, 359 Tokorozawa, Saitama, Japan
(2)  Department of Dermatology, Kinki University School of Medicine, Osaka, Japan
(3)  Department of Dermatology, Tokyo Metropolitan Fuchu Hospital, Tokyo, Japan

Received: 16 June 1992  Accepted: 13 January 1993 

Abstract  A case of chromomycosis in which hyperthermia proved effective is reported. The patient was a 56-year-old male bean curd maker who, without any previous history of minor trauma, developed on the extensor side of the left upper arm an eczematous lesion that underwent gradual radial expansion. The lesion showed a well-defined, 7×10 cm infiltrated erythematous plaque with the central area healed and, at the upper and lower borders, adherent scales and crusts on the surface. Histological examination revealed granulomatous changes in the dermis, as well as sclerotic cells within giant cells and microabscesses. On culturing,Fonsecaea pedrosoi was isolated. The patient was treated with disposable chemical pocket warmers, which were secured over the lesion with a rather tight elastic bandage, so that they kept the affected area warm for 24 hours a day. After a month of such hyperthermic treatment, the erythema and infiltration had decreased considerably, and microscopic examination and culture of the crusts both yielded negative results. Examination of biopsy specimens of the lesion after the third month showed that it had cicatrized. The treatment was stopped after 4 months, and no relapse occurred. We also summarize the published results of local hyperthermic treatment of chromomycosis in Japan.
Key words  Chromomycosis - Hyperthermic treatment -  Fonsecaea pedrosoi

Liam,

That's a great idea. I already use the hot packs that you crush and put on sports injuries, but they don't stay warm for more than a few minutes. Plus, they are too large to strap on and wear under my clothes. I wonder how long the handwarmers stay warm? Do you have any idea?

Come to think of it, a handwarmer and the MaxPullr together would be an awesome combination...if it works for me.

I was hoping Cabella's would have some camo penis warmers in their winter catalog.

On a serious note, they make those very small $ 1.00 chemical heat packs (pocket warmers).  They are very small and light weight and stay warm for several hours.  I think they would work well in conjunction with an athletic supporter. 

One caution.  Do not combine the handwarmers with traction while going through the airport.  The new imaging systems will make it look like you are carrying a heat seeking anti-aircraft rocket in your pants.   

Ocelot,

You asked Liam about Infrared (IR).  I don't know of anyone lately but I do know Joshua used IR heat as did a few others here.  Although IR penetrates well, any heat source will penetrate if it is maintained for a while.  Many forms of scaring processes respond well to heat, but excessive heat can damage tissue.

Do a search on IR, Infrared, hyperthermia and be sure to check the box that says show results as messages.

Hawk

Radiation therapy is of course 'mainstream' for cancer. And I've read about the similarities between Dupuytren's/Peyronies tissue, and cancerous tissue.  A calibrated dose of radiation can kill cancer cells and leave normal cells unharmed; so there's reason to think it might also kill Peyronie's fibroblasts. 

This is also the thinking behind using hyperthermia for Peyronie's - hyperthermia is used against tumors.  But there seems to be little evidence that it works for Peyronie's. Just that single study, in sunny Italy, where Peyronie's is so readily treatable.

Anyone here have any encouraging information on heat therapy? I don't have a VED yet, but I've been doing manual stretching and holding the plaque area up to a light bulb to apply some heat. I know there was discussion of this earlier on the forum, and I know heat breaks collagen bonds.

I'm not using temperatures that cause discomfort in other parts of my body (holding my hand at the same distance for approx. the same time) and after about 5 minutes I can definitely feel some reaction in the plaque itself. I don't know if it's doing anything, however, and rather than waste my time in what might be a fruitless endeavor, I'd like to hear from anyone who's done heat treatment and what the result was. Thanks!

Ocelot:

You should check out Tim468's method of doing his VED treatments. Seems that he does it with a system while soaking in hot water and doing the VED therapy at that time. It is somewhere back on the VED thread. Might even be in the recap thread on the Child Board about VED usage.

I think that any heat applied to the groin area before any stretching or VED therapy would be beneficial. I did some of that in the past.

Old Man

Search HYPERTHERMIA, HEAT, INFRARED (in separate one word searches)

You will find a ton.  Like most, I think it will not hurt, that it is good before and after VED or Traction, but I know of no dramatic results on Peyronies Disease from hyperthermia, at least on the forum.

Guys, I just got freaked out by something I read on the forum regarding heat therapy and that you shouldn't exceed 40C heat or you risk cellular damage! 

I've been using one of those rice socks for heat since I noticed what may be a new indentation.  So last night I used a meat thermometer to see how hot it gets and it was like 130 degrees Farenheit right out of the microwave!  I'd been using it as a wrap for 20 minute sessions - maybe once a day.  By the end of the 20 minutes it's not very warm at all. 

Someone tell me I haven't permanently damaged myself!  It never was hot enough to hurt or anything but that "cellular damage" deal has got me a little freaked.

Nemo

Nemo:

Don't panic, I don't think that the short time you have been subjecting your prized possession to 130 degree heat could have caused major damage. But, cease and desist this treatment ASAP. There are two major heat methods, i.e. dry and wet heat. I would think that wet heat such as a good hot shower beating down in the groin area before Peyronies Disease therapy would be the best such as Dr. Tim does. (See his earlier posts on how he does Peyronies Disease therapy.)

My calculations, if correct, are this:  40 degrees C converts to about 70 degrees F, 130 degrees F converts to about 72 degrees C. Since 100 degrees C is boiling, you have been giving your penis very high temps.

So, bottom line, 130 F would be too high a temp for your heat treatments. I would say that anything in the heat range of body temp or less would be OK to pre-treat your penis before any other therapy session would be all right. Others may have better knowledge than the above, but anyway, use less heat!!

Bottom line, take it easy on the old tool and be extremely careful to handle with care.<><><><><>

Old Man

Jesus, that's scary - who'd have thought you could overdo it with a rice sock.  I just assumed if I could use it on my neck, it was safe for any body part. 

I'm hoping that if it did any damage, I'd notice it on the surface skin, which took the brunt of the heat.  I'd attribute the weird sensations I've been having to the heat, but they're only on the right side, so I doubt that's the cause. 

Nevertheless, no more rice sock, that's for sure.  And yes, Tim, I do think about this stuff too much.

Nemo:

Just remember that the skin on your neck is very much tougher than than the very tender skin on your penis. The skin on your penis takes a lot of abuse from friction during sex in any form, but not nearly as abusive as 130 degree direct heat from a micro wave heated rice sock. Anyway, you have taken the point.

You could also try sitting in a tub of hot water for a while before any Peyronies Disease exercises as well as the hot shower mentioned in my earlier post. Both will do wonders for stretching the penis without causing any damage, etc.

Old Man

Where did you get your heat lamp, and how much did you spend? Why cant I make my own threads on here?

Dented,

You were on a Read-only board when you posted.  It is a board of forum highlights for new members.  I moved your post here.

I want to welcome you to the forum.  You NEED to read the "Read this First" area of the forum for information on how to post, rules, etc.


Hawk

What do you guys think about heat wraps? whats the hottest the temp should be at?

I think your forum is broken or something.

Any of you use heat packs to help? Like you stick in a microwave and put it in a wrap and then on your penis? has that helped any of you? I like it better then bathing because I can sit and watch TV. Also I don't know how safe infrared lamps are.

How hot should it be? Is bearable heat ok or should it be less then that?

According to a study somewhere down below in this thread, you shouldn't go over around 104 degrees F.  I've been using one of those microwave rice socks (until I read that study) and it gets a lot hotter than that.  However, I stopped once I read that as the study says you can do damage to cells at high temps.  I never had any redness or pain or anything, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed I didn't do any damage!   Use low temps though to be safe.

Nemo

Dented,

Can I ask why are you interested more in the heat therapy than the others ? There a few other therapies that some are using and are having some success. You could check the VED, traction, and even oral therapies like Pentox etc..

Good Luck,
Pal

The value of heat therapy is hard to figure out. The best study was done using a device that directs heat very specifically to reduce heating of adjacent areas. None of us have had any benefit from using heat in any fashion, except to relax the tissues before traction is applied.

I don't think that a heat sock applied to the penis is going to be any worse than one applied to a sore neck - it is not going to melt our bodies away! That said, I don't think it is going to do much to help.

Dented, I hope you take Hawk up on his suggestion to read the "read this first" section. If nothing else, then none of us have to answer questions already answered there.

Tim

Probably the best thing to do is place it as a new message in an area that is most closely linked to your preferred topic. This could be under "alternative therapies".

None of really use heat packs because it does not make Peyronie's better. Do you have Peyronie's? What have you tried?

Tim

While heat can reduce inflammation, I would think it would be hard to prove any benefit beyond that.  Since there is actually a study out there indicating efficacy for heat, referenced above, I will strike the preceding statement and concede that heat can possibly be beneficial.  (Edited March 14, 2008, 07:56:37 PM)   I suspect there is a lot more potential benefit in other approaches, even getting appropriate quality sleep time for example which DOES affect low level metabolic processes involved in healing.  In any case, there is simply no ONE approach that is going to be effective.  Truly effective therapy is going to involve multiple modalities at this point and probably far into the future.  - George

Just when everybody here thought that they had thrown the heat concept in the dustbin, here I am to say that high tech heat just might hold some answers.  I insert "high tech" because the kind of controlled heat required would be out of our capabilities right now, but who knows what the future might hold?

Quote from: Daily Mail... Low level infra-red red is thought to stimulate the growth of cells of all types of tissue and encourage their repair. ... "The implications of this research at Sunderland are enormous - so much so that in the future we could be able to affect and change the rate at which our bodies age," ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=510172&in_page_id=1774 (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/health/healthmain.html?in_article_id=510172&in_page_id=1774)

For those of us who follow every shred of research, there are potential answers everywhere.  Its the difference between seeing the glass half empty or half full.  There is huge reason for hope when it comes to Peyronies.  The secrets of the body are being unlocked at an unprecedented rate and, in many cases, many of those among us will likely be the beneficiaries.  So, I don't know where this post should be, but I wanted to bring this angle to everyones attention before that attention drifted.  But once again, the kind of heat WE are able to apply at this point is, indeed, most likely pretty useless.  - George

Is there something better about using a heat lamp / bulb over a heat pack?

The heatpacks I use can get very very hot, and secondly I alternate between the 2. My therapy session consists of 10 minutes of 1 pack, microwave the 2nd pack, 10 minutes of the other. I haven't really noticed any results but I have only been doing it a few days a week for like 2-3 weeks now.

Dented,

I am far from an expert on infrared and my school days science needs some review but I think that some suggest that infrared does some deep heating.  My guess is that science does not bear that out and that is more the case with ultrasound tuned to heat the tissue below the skin.  I think temperature is temperature and the heat transfer would be similar with both sources. The penis is not so huge that it takes a long tome for the heat to penetrate to the tunica and below (at least in my case) :)

In any case, the fact that your heat pads get "very hot" is not a plus.  Heat much above 104 degrees F which is only warm, can damage tissue and cause cell necrosis (death). 

Be careful.

There is in fact research that indicates infrared to be effective against Alzheimer's which is a plaque based disease.  One could imagine that the same MIGHT hold true in the case of Peyronies.  But the evidence definitely points toward infrared and finely tuned infrared at that.  - George

No data on acupuncture that I am aware of. However, it might make sense to poke the plaque full of needle holes and see if it doesn't break up (IOW ,using the Lariche technique).

As for the pH thing - again less data there than with more conventional medicine. Let us know what shakes out for you. Why would it help heal things - to make the body alkalotic?

Tim

George,

My multiple personality disorder is in full swing.  Hawk, the Skeptic has taken over.

Heat is just the transfer of energy from one place or object to another.  I can see an argument for clinically applied microwave energy that has the advantage of deep heating a tissue without surface heating.  This means it transfers the energy right to the deep tissue while bypassing surface tissue, a process I have experienced many times.(not on my penis)

Once the energy is at the plaque however, I see no reason the plaque would respond to HOW the energy got there.  My gut tells me heat is heat (more accurately energy is energy).  Different types of heat refer to only the method of transfer, but the actual energy in every case is a speeding up of the molecules.  This of course triggers many responses in live tissue.

I am also curious about the phrase "tuned infrared"?

Hawk
PS: OK, I have about exhausted my memory stores of physical science except for knowing the threads on a traction device are an inclined plane.

Deep heat? I am not looking to bake my spongy cavernosum and urethra here. The Tunica is right below the skin right?

Alzheimers is located in the brain, which is covered by a large wall of bone... your skull.

Hey guys:

Heat, heat and more heat being applied to a penis in the likes of infrared, et al!!! No way would I even think about using heat of any kind anymore on my prized possession!!!

I had 45 three minute radiation bombardments of my penis back in the 1950 for my Peyronies Disease symptoms. It literally burned the surface skin on the topside which peeled off and left a strawberry patch of red skin. If I even get a slight abrasion in that area, bleeding sets in and does not stop until it is cauterized in some manner.

So, bottom line, apply heat to your penises if you want to, but be aware that you can and will burn the skin if extreme care is not exercised. The maximum high temp would be about 105 degree F. if I were to apply any at all to my old tool!!!!

Old Man

Hey guys Old Man has a valid point.
10 years ago my mother had a brain tumor. She tried the off label heat therapy. Original doctor gave her about 6 months she lived almost 7. Heat therapy did not help her.
What I understand that anything above 104 degrees is dangerous and apply that to an organ that is outside the body?
My$0.02
Jackp

I don't think heat therapy for head and brain problems contribute anything to a discussion on heat therapy for peyronies.

I am not proving or disproving heat therapy, just stating they are 2 very different structures. Like I said your brain is encased in skull, your penis is encased in skin and tunica.

I know some of you get your penis confused with your brain  ::), but don't let it get you in to trouble!

Common guys, ::)

Dented is right on with the last post.

In the interest of productive conversation, we cannot compare heat to xray radiation, or heat to stimulate circulation and loosen up tissue to heat used to cure brain cancer.

We all put heat on out penis if we take a shower, a bath, or ever sit in a hot tub, so lets not respond like it is some bizarre concept. 

We can compare traction to someone injured by a tow truck or VEDs to a severe damage from playing with an air compressor hose, but the fact is they have no relationship to the traction or VEDs and comparing them does not make a point.

Hawk, this begs an interesting question.  If heat can effectively treat Peyronies, then why haven't any of us gotten any results from hot baths.  I know a number of us have tried that route.  As I recall Rico had it down to an art form.  And I don't recall that he was getting much significant help from it.  So if heat is heat is heat, then that route has already been tried.  But if various forms of heat are indeed *different* (as the topic of this thread SEEMS to imply), then perhaps there is some hope in this direction.  Further thoughts???  - George

George,

I stand pretty neutral on hyperthermia as a treatment. I think like many approaches we discuss, it is one of the things you cautiously do because it causes no harm, is easy, cheap, and the scant evidence that exists is positive.

Advantages:
Cheap
Done carefully it cause no harm (no one on this forum has every reported a even a slight negative result)
Cheap
It is known to increase circulation (blood flow) which puts some logic behind the theory
Pretty easy to administer
There are small studies suggesting that it helps Peyronies Disease and other small studies suggesting it preserves penis size post-prostatectomy
Cheap


Disadvantages:
No one on this forum has ever isolated heat as the source of any improvement (Joshua may have come the closest)
Studies are too small and too few to draw much of a conclusion
It is at least potentially damaging if an idiot goes into hotdog cooking mode. (like every single treatment for every single condition if taken to extreme)
It is not totally free  ;)

Physics from a fool:(The difference between Heat and temperature)
Heat is not a "thing".  It is not matter, it is not even truly a state or condition.  It is a process.  It is the transfer of energy (molecules rapidly moving) in one place or object transferring their energy to molecules slowly moving in another place or object.  The transfer of energy can take place by conduction, convection, or radiantion (meaning it projects on something and warms it like the winter sun on your face).  All forms are used to heat our homes.  Each has advantages and applications but once heating takes place, and the temperature hits 70, it is 70.  The heating (transfer of energy) occurred.  Molecular movement has sped up because the energy was transfered from one object to another.  Energy has now been transfered and there is no more heat (transfer of energy).  There is only temperature (Measure of molecular activity).  The material that experienced heat now has a measurement of molecular movement or energy that we call temperature which is different than "heat"

I think the value of hyperthermia is established or refuted on whether sustained temperature of the penis at some given level, for some period of time, with some frequency, over some duration of months, works or fails.

I cannot accept that the method of transfer (radiant, convection, conduction) has anything to do with it and I have never seen anything in any study to suggest otherwise.

Temperature = The measurement of energy of molecular motion in matter
Heat = The transfer of this energy (known as temperature) from one area to another area of matter

Technically, there is no heat treatment.  The treatment is temperature or hyperthermia.  There is no reason to think the type of heat has any bearing.

The methods I have read detail methods of directing heat to a specific plane, not generally warming things up. The use of tools that are not available, and which I did not completely understand from reading the methods, suggests that wea re not going to be able to do this at home with tools from Home Depot.

Tim

Quote from: Tim468 on March 09, 2008, 11:32:37 PM
The methods I have read detail methods of directing heat to a specific plane, not generally warming things up.
Tim

You have identified the entire point of different heat types.   The development of radiating heat from a microwave (the total opposite end of the spectrum from xray) has the advantage of changing the temperature deep in tissue.  A physical therapist can raise the temperature of the interior of my knee joint without heating the skin and waiting for the heat to penetrate my knee with conduction or convection.  They used to get the same result with heat pads, it just took longer and was a hassle.  There should be no confusion.  It is not the microwave that does the job, it is the temperature that does it.

There is NO reason to think the penis would ever benefit from sophisticated targeted methods of transferring temperature to deep tissue.  Compared to a knee, the focus would be far beyond the penis much less the tunica nearest the heat source.  Hyperthermia is simply raising the temperature of the tunica.  This can be accomplished with infrared (radiant), a heat pad (conduction), or a glass of hot water (arguably conduction or convection)

My thoughts are that if Heat Therapy helps for Peyronies, it probably takes a long period of time of steady sessions. Some of the websites for Peyronies say that it has a minute chance improvement with no treatment over time. I think heat therapy might increase this miracle.

I do not recommend baths or showers because the trick is to concentrate 104 degree heat on your penis, not your testicles, which are located outside of the body to remain at a lower temperature to begin with. It could damage your sex drive. 

I wonder if someone has tested this, using heat several times a week for months or even a year and has any positive results.

Quote from: Dented on March 10, 2008, 03:50:54 AM
My thoughts are that if Heat Therapy helps for Peyronies, it probably takes a long period of time of steady sessions...

I do not recommend baths or showers because the trick is to concentrate 104 degree heat on your penis, not your testicles, which are located outside of the body to remain at a lower temperature to begin with. It could damage your sex drive. 

Dented, when you say "I do not recommend baths.." "it could damage your sex drive" many readers would assume that you are making this recommendation based on studies or credible evidence of this statement.  Would this assumption on their part be correct or misleading?

If it is just a hunch, guess, or private theory based on personal thoughts, you need to specify that.  While I have seen studies that prolonged hot baths can reduce sperm count, I have never seen authoritative information that even suggested it has ever been linked to a reduction in testosterone production or sex drive.

It is also my suggestion that we call it hyperthermia or temperature therapy rather than heat therapy to avoid the confusion we have been over.  Heat has one purpose that has ever been suggested in these studies and that is to raise temperature.  Heat comes in 3 methods (often in combination).  Temperature is temperature.

It's what I read somewhere or heard from someone, could be wrong could be right. Don't take my word for it. I'll call it Hyperthermia from now on.

HEre are different methods I found:

"Control group: 30 patients will be treated with hyperthermia alone (30 minutes/day with infrared lamp of 150 W at a distance of approximately 20 cm of the plaque(s) and curvature) "

Details...

"patients underwent local hyperthermia with the FLEXITERM CX 2000 (Nuova Pragma, Rome, Italy) device according to the following schedule: hyperthermia treatment reaching a local temperature of 39–40
C, lasting 30 min, twice a week for
5 weeks, for a total of 10 applications. A second cycle, with the same characteristics as the first, was repeated after a 1-month interval—for a total of 10 treatment sessions."

Here are more details:

(a) Heating is applied to the tissue with a microwave antennae 'head' operating at a
frequency of 40.68MHz.
(b) Surface temperatures are maintained using a temperature-controlled bolus.
(c) Copper thermocouples are used to constantly monitor skin temperature.
(d) Computer-controlled software is used to maintain constant temperature.

This is NOT the same as applying a hot pack or taking a warm bath. It is ludicrous to think we can mimic this when A) we can barely understand the report, and B) the device they use is not available and the company that made it seems to have gone out of business.

The best one could do is find a similar device and read the literature on other ailments and see what comes up.

Tim

Quote from: Tim468 on March 10, 2008, 10:14:08 PM
This is NOT the same as applying a hot pack or taking a warm bath. It is ludicrous to think we can mimic this...

Tim, I do not think I am being ludicrous for concluding the results (temperature) can be duplicated,... quite to the contrary! 

Why would you think that we could not raise the temperature to 39 -40C ???  I am totally confused.  You fail to say WHY this is not the same as a heat pack or a hot bath.  Clearly the machine they used is no longer made but that does not mean hyperthermia for mankind has come to an end. 

Temperature IS Temperature. 

If I sun my penis on a flat rock (with sun screen of course) long enough to get the temperature of the tunica up to the designated level for the designated time, and frequency, there would be absolutely no reason to think that the source of the temperature has anything to do with it.  It is the 39-40C that is the issue.  In fact, truth be known, they have no evidence that 38C or 41C would not have worked as well.  Thus with any heat application.  If you go to different but GOOD physical therapists for the same injury, one physical therapist will use ultrasound, one shortwave, one microwave, one heat packs.  Depends on the equip they have and use.  Sometimes they don't use the same type from one visit to the next depending on what is tied up elsewhere.

That study concluded with:
"Conclusions: Results of this study stress the efficacy of hyperthermia in the treatment of advanced Peyronie's disease."
Their conclusions did NOT stress the efficacy of the Flexiterm CX 2000 in treating Peyronies Disease.

That particular study happened to use what they had available for general use.  It was not manufactured or purchased for this study.

I really have to say that I think that it is a bit reckless to argue that all forms of heat are identical and have an identical effect on the body.  Heat is actually like light and comes in a wide range of wavelengths that can be either focused or broad spectrum.  Certainly a color blind person would argue that all forms of light are the same since they could not perceive the range of colors.  The same arguments would apply in the case of heat.  I am not sure there has been a lot of scientific investigation into the effects of specific frequencies of heat and their respective effects on cellular and extra-cellular function, and until there is, I don't think it would be wise to assume that the conventional wisdom, whatever that may be, is authoritative.  Get my drift here?  - George

Quote from: George999 on March 11, 2008, 11:24:44 AM
I really have to say that I think that it is a bit reckless to argue that all forms of heat are identical and have an identical effect on the body.  Heat is actually like light and comes in a wide range of wavelengths that can be either focused or broad spectrum.

Well, it has now been suggested I am ludicrous and reckless.

I think it is reckless and ludicrous to suggest, with absolutely no evidence, that which has never been suggested by any researcher.
For instance there is no such thing as heat therapy!  Yet you suggest that it is the type of heat and you know which type.

The facts tell us that there has never been a suggestion by any scientist or researcher that heat or a method of heat is at issue in treating Peyronies Disease.

Researchers (fools that they may be) concluded  that temperatures 0f 40C have efficacy.  Wild speculation that it was a specific piece of antiquated equipment or a specific type of heat are no more responsible than speculation that it was the position of the penis that caused the improvement.  Could it have been?.. Sure!  We could wildly and recklessly proclaim that the polycarbon in most VED tubes causes improvement rather than the Vacuum.  Why not?  Others have used such reasoning before on this forum.  Maybe the improvement hinged on the fact that they used European voltage rather than 110 AC.  Maybe the warm penis made them masturbate after the session and that caused improvement.  Who can say otherwise?

I have to ask what do you know about physics or this study that the scientist did not know?  I tend to think it is more responsible to accept the researchers conclusion rather than speculation.

Your basis of theory is that, it is not disproved therefore it is.

You and Tim offer not one shed of evidence.  You just say it over and over without addressing the evidence presented.

My basis is to accept the study conclusions in the absence of strong evidence for rejecting it.
What was that conclusion the researchers reached?
Hyperthermia to 40C has efficacy for Peyronies Disease  PERIOD

I am not sure how many more times I have to say "hyperthermia addresses temperature not heat or the type of heat it takes to bring about hyperthermia."

QuoteObjective: Previous experience in the treatment of plaque with hyperthermia in orthopaedics led the authors to investigate the effectiveness of this approach in patients with Peyronie's disease.Patients and methods: The study population comprised 60 patients (aged 36-76 years) with advanced Peyronie's disease. Patients were divided into two groups (A and B), with 30 in each. Group A patients underwent local hyperthermia treatment, with 30-min treatment sessions twice a week for 5 weeks. Patients received a total of 10 applications, which reached a local temperature of 39-40 degrees C. A second cycle was repeated after a 1-month interval for a total of 20 treatment sessions. Group B patients were treated with intra-plaque infiltrations using 10?mg verapamil; they received one infiltration once a week for 3 months. Differences between the two groups, as well as between variables (before and after treatment), were analysed using Student t-test and Fisher test.Results: Hyperthermia significantly reduced plaque size and penile curvature and led to an increase in mean scores of erectile function (EF) domain, while verapamil had no such effects. Haemodynamic parameters were not significantly modified in either group. Hyperthermia caused significantly fewer side effects than verapamil infiltrations and was significantly more effective in preventing disease progression. There were no significant differences between the two groups in terms of pain reduction during erection.Conclusions: Results of this study stress the efficacy of hyperthermia in the treatment of advanced Peyronie's disease.   

I really don't think that either Tim or myself are making any assertions about the effectiveness of "hyperthermia".  We are only suggesting that it is an area to be explored.  It was you, Hawk, who suggested that all forms of heat have the same effect.  And frankly, yes, I am questioning that assertion.  I am saying that I don't know that to be true and I don't think you do either.  You are asking us for studies and evidence, but you have made a statement that all forms of heat have the same effect and you have not backed that statement up with any evidence.  And NO I am NOT saying you ARE reckless, I am only saying that I think the statement you made was reckless.  And I for one, have probably made more reckless statements than anybody including more than a few right here on this forum, so I am not trying to single you out for punishment or ridicule, I am just trying to discuss a concept that I think deserves more discussion even though I, myself, am not particularly interested in it.  So please don't take it as some sort of personal attack.  It was certainly not intended that way.

Regarding the particular study in question.  The fact that researchers "concluded" something does not make it fact.  Until the same results are achieved with a different form of heat, no one really knows.  Researcher's "conclusions" are often just "assumptions" based on observed results.  This is why there are often conflicting results when there are multiple studies on a given substance or therapy.  So from what I have read of this study so far, which admittedly is not a lot, I am not convinced that it PROVES that the efficacy was from the hyperthermia itself.  I have this nagging suspicion that it could in fact have been from the way in which that hyperthermia was achieved.  And this suspicion is only aggravated further by other recent studies I am seeing about tissue response to various forms of radiation, be it in the form of light, heat, electromagnetic, etc.  And I do think that we need to ask these critical questions when we read these studies that are not fully corroborated by other studies employing different methods.  Critically examining multiple studies allows one to see things in stereo in a sense and to observe things that are not visible in either study in isolation.  And when it comes to hyperthermia therapy for Peyronies, I would really like to see multiple studies before jumping to any set in stone type conclusions.  - George

Quote from: George999 on March 11, 2008, 12:26:13 PM
I really don't think that either Tim or myself are making any assertions about the effectiveness of "hyperthermia".  We are only suggesting that it is an area to be explored.

If that is the case, I am totally out of line.

I read

Quote"This is NOT the same as applying a hot pack or taking a warm bath. It is ludicrous to think we can mimic this when A) we can barely understand the report, and B) the device they use is not available and the company that made it seems to have gone out of business.

The best one could do is find a similar device and read the literature on other ailments and see what comes up."

As meaning these were NOT the same and it is ludicrous to even think other means of inducing hyperthermia would be effective.

I will read more carefully in the future  ::)

Quote from: Tim468 on March 10, 2008, 10:14:08 PMThis is NOT the same as applying a hot pack or taking a warm bath. It is ludicrous to think we can mimic this when A) we can barely understand the report, and B) the device they use is not available and the company that made it seems to have gone out of business.

What Tim is pointing out here is that the researchers in question achieved their result using microwave radiation.  And that is ALL they used.  They ASSUMED that the results achieved were due to the hyperthermia induced.  But how could they know that the microwave radiation was not what achieved the results?  How could they know that the hyperthermia was not just simply a useless byproduct of the process?  One HAS to ask intelligent questions and read research with a critical eye.  This is one reason that very promising research never gets duplicated and thus gets thrown into the trash heap of history.  Unless there is ANOTHER study indicating that the hyperthermia itself is efficacious, I question the premise.  If the only physiological effect microwave radiation has is hyperthermia then perhaps it is time to turn in our electric blankets and heating pads for something new.  ;)

Quote from: Hawk on March 11, 2008, 12:52:03 PMIt makes me crazy to be told that researchers conclusions do not make a thing fact by individuals that take the position that NO research is superior evidence to some research.

Did I say that???  If I did, I must indeed confess a moment of insanity.  But I think my point was that A) Some research IS superior to no research, but B) more research IS superior to some research.  Look, Hawk, the bottom line is that this study reported significant results over a few months with "hyperthermia".  If you or anyone else can duplicate these results I will be all ears and I am sure Tim will be as well.  Until that point though, I think we both have real questions about the "conclusions" reached in this study.  - George

Seems like a tempest here for some reason.

I am cautioning against making assumptions that "heat" (ie temperature alone) caused the salutory effects in the Italian study (yes, it is another Italian study...).

My point about the equipment is that I can find no evidence that the company still exists, and that makes it REALLY hard to check out the methodology. I am left reading the report of a non-native English speaker that skimps on details and does not give me enough to really understand what similar heat therapy might be comparable.

IOW, I cannot tell if this is like a heat lamp, or if it is directed to a certain tissue plan.

One feature of directed microwave or ultrasonic therapy is that you can direectit to a certain depth in tissue. That would allow you to selectively heat up a tissue plan. IN the Italian study, they affixed the penis to a plate with a clamp, and "shielded" the rest of the groin, including the testes, from "radiation". These skimpy details suggest this was more than a lightbulb heating things up (and yes, I have tried that too myself - didn't help).

So, without the important caveats that the rest of the body needed to be shielded from wnat they were doing; that the heat was specifically directed towards the tunica and avoided adjacent tissues; and that the heat was created with specific coil and that this is not easily available - well, with all of that, it seems a stretch to say that a hot bath might reproduce the effects they found.

Especially given the fishy nature of these Italian studies that always find results that no one else can duplicate!

Tim

I will look for the original paper and post it.

Here is the text minus the figures and tables:

Please note that this is microwave heat technology. The last reference (in bold) may be worth digging up...

************************

Objective: Previous experience in the treatment of plaque with hyperthermia in orthopaedics led the authors to investigate the effectiveness of this approach in patients with Peyronie's disease.

Patients and methods: The study population comprised 60 patients (aged 36-76 years) with advanced Peyronie's disease. Patients were divided into two groups (A and B), with 30 in each. Group A patients underwent local hyperthermia treatment, with 30-min treatment sessions twice a week for 5 weeks. Patients received a total of 10 applications, which reached a local temperature of 39-40°C. A second cycle was repeated after a 1-month interval for a total of 20 treatment sessions. Group B patients were treated with intra-plaque infiltrations using 10 mg verapamil; they received one infiltration once a week for 3 months. Differences between the two groups, as well as between variables (before and after treatment), were analysed using Student t-test and Fisher test.

Results: Hyperthermia significantly reduced plaque size and penile curvature and led to an increase in mean scores of erectile function (EF) domain, while verapamil had no such effects. Haemodynamic parameters were not significantly modified in either group. Hyperthermia caused significantly fewer side effects than verapamil infiltrations and was significantly more effective in preventing disease progression. There were no significant differences between the two groups in terms of pain reduction during erection.

Conclusions: Results of this study stress the efficacy of hyperthermia in the treatment of advanced Peyronie's disease.
Keywords: Hyperthermia; Peyronie's disease; electromagnetic waves 

Introduction
Peyronie's disease is an inflammatory condition involving the tunica albuginea of the penis, the epidemiology, incidence and pathogenesis of which are not clearly defined. Several hypotheses have been advanced, such as perivascular inflammation, trauma during sexual intercourse and a genetic pre-disposition related to HLA-DQ5. The course of the disease tends to run over 1-1.5 years. As soon as remodelling of the plaque is complete, pain related to the inflammatory process tends to decrease and the effects of the lesion become static or even improve spontaneously [1-3].

Treatment, therefore, is not unequivocal and the specialist relies on personal experience using oral drugs, local injections with various kinds of pharmaceutical agents, laser, ultrasound or shockwave applications aimed at making the situation tolerable until surgical correction is feasible [4-7]. Radiotherapy, on the other hand, may give rise to adverse effects - e.g. tissue atrophy - and may be useful only 'for severe pain during the acute phase' [8]. However, Cavallini et al. [8] have suggested that verapamil is the most active and useful treatment for the fibrocalcific scars associated with Peyronie's disease [9]. In the authors' opinion, the 3-month follow-up described in other studies is too short. Some authors have used extra-corporeal shock wave therapy [10]; to the authors' knowledge, though, no mention is made of control studies. A metanalysis of clinical trials has appeared, but these data were not considered valid. Furthermore, ESW treatment for Peyronie's disease is not 'evidence-based therapy'. This approach was not used, since reports in the literature are not favourable [11]. A large number of patients (65-70%) with Peyronie's disease present an advanced stage of the condition at diagnosis. In this case, the best treatment, until now, has been intra-plaque infiltrations of verapamil [12]. Still, 15-20% of these patients show disease progression even after this therapy [12] and these data have led to the search for more effective treatment with the fewest possible side effects.

Previous experience with hyperthermia in orthopaedics in the treatment of plaque and tendinous fibrosis [13-23] led the authors to investigate the possibility of using this same mode of treatment in patients with advanced Peyronie's disease, comparing the outcome of this treatment with that following verapamil infiltration into the plaque.

Patients and methods
The study population comprised 60 patients, mean age 62 years (range 36-76), with a mean duration of symptoms before diagnosis of 13 months (range 7-16). The disease was diagnosed and staged by means of case history, glycaemia, glycosuria and glycosylated haemoglobin levels and a physical examination. Photographs were made during erection, which was induced with intra-cavernosal PGE1. Basal and dynamic (with intra-cavernosal PGE1 10 mcg) colour Doppler ultrasound (US) was performed before and after completion of treatments. The IIEF-15 (International Index of Erectile Function) questionnaire [24] was administered to evaluate sexual function. All patients presented an advanced stage of La Peyronie's disease, with pain during intercourse, penile curvature affecting vaginal penetration and/or erectile dysfunction.

Physical examination revealed no painful penile plaques. At basal and dynamic colour Doppler US, plaques had the appearance of single or multiple hyperechoic lesions or calcifications >18 mm2, possibly with septum or cavernosal tissue infiltration.

None of these patients had previously been submitted to any form of treatment for this condition and none had previously received PDE-5 inhibitors. Some patients presented associated disorders such as Dupuytren's disease (three patients, 5%), hypertension (12 patients, 20%) and diabetes (11 patients, 18%).

Patients, including also those with associated disorders, were randomly assigned to one of two groups (A and B), with 30 patients in each; patients were not stratified by calcification in plaques. Group A patients underwent local hyperthermia with the FLEXITERM CX 2000 (Nuova Pragma, Rome, Italy) device according to the following schedule: hyperthermia treatment reaching a local temperature of 39-40°C, lasting 30 min, twice a week for 5 weeks, for a total of 10 applications. A second cycle, with the same characteristics as the first, was repeated after a 1-month interval - for a total of 10 treatment sessions. Group (B) patients received a single injection of 10 mg verapamil (diluted to 10 cc total volume with injectable saline). The solution was distributed throughout the plaque using a 5/8 inch 25 gauge needle on a 10 cc Luerlock syringe, once a week for 3 months.

The 'FLEXITHERM CX 2000' device has the following components:

Heating is applied to the tissue with a microwave antennae 'head' operating at a frequency of 40.68 MHz.
Surface temperatures are maintained using a temperature-controlled bolus.
Copper thermocouples are used to constantly monitor skin temperature.
Computer-controlled software is used to maintain constant temperature.
A penile applicator with supports is used to maintain the penis in an extended position and to position the thermocouple on the plaque to be treated. The supports are also designed to protect the testicles from electromagnetic wave damage.

Data were collected 6 months after the last treatment and the initial assessments were repeated. Plaque size was evaluated using US; penile curvature was assessed using photographs during erection, which was induced with intra-cavernosal PGE1 injection according to Kelami's [25] method; pain during intercourse was quantified by means of the international pain scale (0, no pain; 1, slight pain; 2, moderate pain; 3, severe pain) [26], with results being classified as positive or negative depending on whether pain regressed or not; and mean scores of the EF domain were obtained by means of the IIEF-15 questionnaire [12]. Peak systolic velocity (PSV), end-diastolic velocity (EDV) and resistivity index (RI) of the right and left cavernosal arteries were obtained by dynamic colour Doppler US (with intra-cavernosal PGE1 10 mcg). Progression of disease was defined as an increase in pain during erection and/or plaque size and/or penile curvature and/or EDV and/or decrease in IIEF score and/or PSV and/or RI [12] with results being classified as progression or no progression. Side effects were classified as present or absent.

Differences in plaque size, penile curvature, mean scores of EF domain, PSV, EDV and IR were analysed before and 6 months after the end of treatment in the two groups using Student t-test. A paired Student t-test was performed in the same group of patients (before vs after treatment) and an unpaired Student t-test was performed between the two groups of patients (A vs B). Differences in pain, disease progression and side effects were compared before and 6 months after the end of treatment in the two groups using Fisher test.

Results
All patients in both groups showed complete disappearance of the pain after a few treatment sessions, with a reduced pain score at the end of treatment.

Hyperthermia significantly reduced plaque size in 60% of the patients treated. Indeed, the plaques disappeared completely in 10 patients (35%), seven patients (25%) showed a volumetric reduction of the plaques and the plaques remained stable in the other 12 patients (40%) (Table I and Figure 1).

The effects of hyperthermia on penile curvature are shown in Table I and Figure 1. There was a significant reduction in penile curvature after two cycles of treatment. Recurvatum completely disappeared in two patients and all patients reported better 'elasticity' of the treated area, which resulted in an improvement in intercourse.

Verapamil did not significantly reduce either plaque size or penile curvature (Table I, Figure 1). None of the patients in Group A presented disease progression, whereas disease progression was observed in five cases (20%) in Group B. Following two treatment sessions, only Group A patients showed an improvement in sexual performance, including improved erection and increased mean EF domain scores. The effects of treatment on right cavernosal artery PSV, EDV and IR, outlined in Table I and Figure 2, show that hyperthermia and verapamil did not significantly modify these haemodynamic parameters.

All patients tolerated hyperthermia treatment very well with no side effects. However, five patients (20%) submitted to verapamil infiltrations presented side effects, including mild loss of libido in three patients and mild epigastralgia in two. Despite these side effects, none of the patients withdrew from treatment.

Discussion
In this study, the authors have shown that, in patients with Peyronie's disease, penile tissue can be safely, selectively, uniformly and effectively heated to 39-40°C using computer-controlled 40.68 MHz microwaves, for an established period of time, according to the following characteristics: heating efficacy (ability to reach the required therapeutic temperature), homogeneity while heating the selected area, lack of over-heated zones, maintenance of the established temperature for the required time, selectivity (electromagnetic waves reach only the selected area) and ability to reproduce the same conditions for each treatment.

Hyperthermia has two main mechanisms of action. The first consists of dilatation of the micro-vessels with increased arterial and venous blood flow in the treated area by generating heat with an increased amount of oxygen, red and white cell components to repair cell and tissue damage and better venous drainage to eliminate toxins and oedemas [15, 18]. The second consists of an increased rate of cell metabolism resulting from the increased temperature, with consequent improvement in repair of cell and tissue damage [22, 23].

Hyperthermia, due to the positive effects previously outlined, is indicated mainly for a wide range of acute and chronic muscular and skeletal conditions due to vascular damage and resulting fibrosis involving tendons, ligaments and muscles [14-23].

The advanced stage of Peyronie's disease represents a clinical problem for which various types of treatment, including extracorporeal shock wave treatment, have been used [11, 12, 27]. To the authors' knowledge, though, these were not controlled studies and these findings, therefore, cannot be considered valid. It should also be pointed out that, in 10-20% of patients, disease progresses despite treatment, thus precluding the possibility of surgically correcting the penile deformity.

Patients suffering from advanced Peyronie's disease could reap remarkable benefits from hyperthermia. On the one hand, the increased blood flow is responsible for a sort of 'gymnastics' of the penile vessels, with improved erection. On the other hand, the increased possibility of repairing cell and tissue damage could result in lysis or modification of the plaques as well as the fibrosis related to this condition. In regards to the analgesic effect, hyperthermia acts on the nerve endings, inducing production of endorphins and reducing afferent fibre transmission [19, 20].

Hyperthermia may lead to changes in cell metabolism and treatment at a high temperature (45°C) can result in irreversible cell damage, even cell necrosis, as reported in the literature [16-18]. However, at a lower temperature (39-42°C), provided the time of heating is limited, changes in cell metabolism do not lead to permanent cell damage. Mild heating promotes the above-mentioned effects that result in a beneficial therapeutic action. Indeed, it has been reported that damage incurred in tissue is related not only to temperature but also to length of heating time [28].

A temperature of 39-40°C, with a limited time of heating, has been chosen in the present treatment protocol to avoid the risk of possible cell damage involving the underlying anatomical structures, with particular attention being focused on the penile neurovascular bundle and urethra. The plaques in the penis can never be more than a few mm from the surface and even the deepest are only a few mm between the albuginea and the skin. Therefore, the surface temperature is similar to the deep plaque temperature.

The choice of a temperature of 39-40°C was based upon that used in studies carried out in the orthopaedic setting in which no adverse effects on the tissues had emerged and only beneficial effects had been recorded. The majority of investigations or studies on Peyronie's disease are prospective series without controls and have been criticized for poor patient characterization [11, 12, 27].

The present study was a controlled study in which verapamil-treated patients acted as controls. Use of a positive control (verapamil infiltrations) was preferred to placebo, since these proved to be the most effective in the case of fibro-calcific scars. Also, verapamil infiltrations currently represent the treatment of choice in patients with advanced Peyronie's disease [12].

Patients were observed 6 months after the last treatment. This period of follow-up was a deliberate choice, as the improvements observed would be due to the effects of treatment and not to spontaneous changes in severity of disease, as may occur.

Qualitative data (pain reduction and disease progression) were analysed before and after treatment using Fisher test. Quantitative data (plaque size, penile curvature and mean scores of EF domain, PSV, EDV, IR) were analysed before and after treatment using Student t-test.

Hyperthermia significantly reduced plaque size and penile curvature (Table I, Figure 1) and increased mean scores of EF domain (Table I, Figure 1), while verapamil did not cause any change in these parameters. Haemodynamic parameters were not significantly modified in either group (Table I, Figure 2). Hyperthermia caused significantly fewer side effects than verapamil infiltrations and was significantly more effective in preventing disease progression. There were no significant differences between the two groups in the reduction of pain during erection.

Use of hyperthermia in andrological disorders, which has not previously been reported in the literature, showed encouraging results, suggesting that hyperthermia is an effective conservative treatment for advanced Peyronie's disease because it is well tolerated and causes no serious side effects. It is of considerable benefit in reducing pain, plaque size and penile curvature and it increased the possibility of coitus in a significant number of patients. Moreover, considering the mechanism of action and results obtained, hyperthermia could also play an important role in the treatment of erectile dysfunction.

The beneficial effects observed in this investigation were based upon direct observations on the patients during the treatment. This study described a completely new treatment approach and the 'recognized mechanism', as already pointed out, is 'the increased ability in repairing cell and tissue lesions with lysis or modification of the plaques and fibrosis'.

The beneficial effect of the hyperthermia treatment was documented via direct patient observation and assessment. A completely new treatment approach was described, that suggests microwave heat at a moderate thermal dose can increase the cell repair in plaque formation and in fibrosis. Studies involving more patients and longer follow-up are necessary to determine the optimal thermal dose, treatment protocol and efficacy level.

Post edited - Warning about possible tissue damage highlighted in red by Hawk

Are we talking about that Italian hyperthermia "study" again?

I gave this a serious try about a year ago. I used a ceramic IR emitter (no visible emissions) from a pet store.  Medical hyperthermia uses microwaves; but heat is heat, and Peyronie's plaque probably isn't far from the surface. Reptiles in captivity will use these IR emitters to raise their core temperature (a ceramic emitter is supposed to put out lower-frequency IR that penetrates deeper).  I used a digital meter and thermcouple probe to monitor skin temperature and maintained it at about 41C or slightly above.  I did about 20 sessions of 30 minutes each, with days off in between.

As far as I could tell it did nothing; but of course I wasn't in Italy.

J,

As always, I enjoy your posts.

There were 2 phrases in that post I found priceless.

I let others guess which 2

Hawk
;D

The Italian study "worked" because, of course, the subjects were Italian and anything seems to work with Italians.  In j's case, he was using a treatment for reptilian Peyronies and since he is not a reptile, it was unsuccessful.  Next question?

When this report first surfaced, we only had the abstract, and we wondered if the penis was under traction during the heating.

The full report includes the statement:

"A penile applicator with supports is used to maintain the penis in an extended position and to position the thermocouple on the plaque to be treated."

How far do you extend a penis before it becomes traction ?

It's easy to ridicule this study, but of course I didn't use microwaves, and there might be other factors of which I'm not aware.  But I think it's fair to say that without any sort of clinical followup, or any interest generated in the medical community, the study has no real value.  It's just another UFO report.

How it can be that a study showing what seems to be spectacular success (observable improvement within months claimed) with a disease so difficult to treat receives literally zero followup even from the investigators involved in the study itself.  And this is after almost three years have passed.  But there is ongoing study in this area: Treatment of Peyronie's disease with hyperthermia, vitamin D and testosterone: a randomised controlled trial (http://www.controlled-trials.com/ISRCTN82950322/).  - George

I want to thank Tim for the entirity of the study on hyperthermia.  It is an interesting read and an interesting topic for several reasons.  Any time this topic comes up, I feel it is reckless not to emphasize the warning contained in this study.

This study used temperature between 102 - 104 degrees F.  The researchers conclude temperatures of 107.6 degrees F are safe for limited periods but stress that temperatures of just 113 degrees F can result in irreversible cell damage.

The researchers list other interesting information including the depth of Peyronies Disease plaque, the correlation of skin temperature to plaque temperature, and the duel mechanism by which they conclude temperature improved the outcome for these patients.  The entire study is worth reading but possibly should be moved just due to its length.

I remain skeptical of this study but interested since temperature is used on such a wide range of tissue injuries, and conditions ranging from frozen shoulder to tendon injury.

Quote from: Tim468 on March 11, 2008, 01:58:34 PM
Hyperthermia may lead to changes in cell metabolism and treatment at a high temperature (45°C) can result in irreversible cell damage, even cell necrosis, as reported in the literature [16-18]. However, at a lower temperature (39-42°C), provided the time of heating is limited, changes in cell metabolism do not lead to permanent cell damage. Mild heating promotes the above-mentioned effects that result in a beneficial therapeutic action. Indeed, it has been reported that damage incurred in tissue is related not only to temperature but also to length of heating time [28].

A temperature of 39-40°C, with a limited time of heating, has been chosen in the present treatment protocol to avoid the risk of possible cell damage involving the underlying anatomical structures, with particular attention being focused on the penile neurovascular bundle and urethra. The plaques in the penis can never be more than a few mm from the surface and even the deepest are only a few mm between the albuginea and the skin. Therefore, the surface temperature is similar to the deep plaque temperature.

My experience was that your nervous system is evolved to reliably alert you if your skin temperature gets to the danger point.  My thermocouple and meter were calibrated and accurate.  If I wasn't watching it, and my skin got near 43C, it stung and I quickly readjusted things.  To hurt yourself I think you'd have to really get carried away.  NEVERTHELESS I repeat that I'm not a medical professional or a biologist and have no real knowledge of what hyperthermia might actually do to tissue.

I'm not discounting hyperthermia.  It makes sense to think that elevated temperature might cause molecular bonds to break in the collagen matrix.  But like many other proposed therapies, the heat might have to be prolonged and extremely well targeted to have any effect.

Hyperthermia is pleasant; it probably enhances circulation; it feels psychologically right.  So it's not hard to imagine a strong placebo effect, especially in a supportive clinical setting.

Quote from: Hawk on March 13, 2008, 02:05:56 PM

Quote from: George999 on March 13, 2008, 01:17:13 PM
The problem comes when one tries to rely on the conclusion of one study in isolation.  When you have multiple studies involving different research teams all reaching a similar conclusion, you have pretty reliable guidance.  In the case of a single, never replicated study, you can toss a coin on it.

- George

George,

I don't think that is where the problem lies.

Your attempts to understand and unravel things you are untrained or uneducated to unravel is heroic.  In so doing you come up with a lot of interesting data.  I think at times individuals invest enough in an endeavor that they put on blinders and loose all objectivity.  The result is, that they can only apply rational thought if it supports THEIR opinions.  They then embrace the irrational if necessary to reject opinions outside of their effort.

The facts are sad but these are the facts.  THERE ARE NO REPRODUCIBLE STUDIES of any of the supplements you recommend either alone or in combination in correcting Peyronies Disease.  Most of the supplements you recommend have never even been associated with Peyronies Disease by anyone but you.  You base your endorsement soley  on deductive reasoning of a mind untrained in medical research, physiology or any associated field.  No one here has reported even anecdotal improvement from them.  You then turn around and in an instant postulate theories wild guesses about types of heat and physiology that no one in medicine, or physics have ever postulated.  You then promote such guesses to dismiss a  study outside of your efforts. You do so even though the mechanisms of temperature on tissue, injuries, and blood flow are well documented.  You do so even though the effects of blood flow on Peyronies Disease are a central theme.

I have no doubt it is honest and unintentional, but therein lies the problem.

George,

You are not a skeptic on the hyperthermia study.  I am a skeptic on that.

You are in fact doing nothing short of wild guessing that you know the source of improvement in that study.  You whip out a concept never advanced about differing forms of heat being the issue rather than temperature.  You seem to dismiss solidly established documentation of temperature increasing blood flow and being used in other forms of fibrosis, and in being used to reduce scarring in burn victims, in reducing penile shrinkage in prostatectomy patients.  You do this in favor of nothing but your thought of what could be possible.

I find it an in-credible turn from sound reasoning.  A turn from the probable to pure speculation.  A turn from the conclusions of trained experts to the baseless hunch of an unprofessional. 

The hoops you jump through unnoticed by yourself to get there is all the more amazing BECAUSE you would never stand by for someone jumping through such hoops to discount Vitamin E, ALC, glycation theory, etc etc.etc.

The only common thread I see is that one of these was not presented by you and that makes me wonder if you have developed blinders. 

You know I think well of you.  That is not a personal attack but a glaring observation I could not help but make.  Maybe it should have been made in private but your argument was made in public.

Hawk, I think we may be having a break down of communication on the hyperthermia issue.  And it is certainly more my doing than yours.  My points regarding hyperthermia were intended to be directed at the extremely proficient efficacy claimed in the study in question.

1)  I argued that different sources of heat are not equal.  I stand by that statement.  I believe that both infrared and microwave, for example, include components that go BEYOND hyperthermia and are not at this point really well researched or understood.

2)  I argued that I would like to see references to multiple studies delineating the effectiveness of hyperthermia.  So far no one has referenced any.  You refer to studies indicating the effectiveness of hyperthermia for other forms of fibrosis.  Certainly that would indicate that it would be effective for Peyronies.  I am aware at this point that those studies are out there, I have pulled up a list of a number of abstracts.  But as I also indicated, I do not pretend to know very much about this area.  I do recognize that different forms of heat are not the same and then somehow we bounced over to hyperthermia in a generalized sense.  I did assert that it is an area ripe for investigation.  I certainly wasn't discounting it out of hand.  I WAS discounting the phenomenal results of the study in question as deriving from hyperthermia.  As for hyperthermia in general, I honestly said I would like to see other studies.  And yes, I will accept effectiveness with other forms of fibrosis.

3)  I then reiterated my disbelief at this particular study.  If it indeed was so successful, why wasn't it followed up?  Unfortunately, I suspect that the outcomes of some of these studies get tweaked a bit to advance the careers of those managing the study.  I am not going to say that that was what happened in this case, but one has to wonder.

So where exactly are we not agreeing on this issue?  - George

George,

First off you don't have to defend glycation to me.  I have no issue with that topic and never meant to suggest i did.  I was making a point of your differing standards on differing topics.

I have often voiced skepticism and interest over the hyperthermia study just like I have the ALC study.  They have much in common.

As far as our area of disagreement it is this

Quote from: George1)  I argued that different sources of heat are not equal.  I stand by that statement.  I believe that both infrared and microwave, for example, include components that go BEYOND hyperthermia and are not at this point really well researched or understood.

Would't you rather stand by evidence ???

It is clear you either have no evidence, or at least offer not one molecule of evidence that different types of heat have different physiological effects on the body, much less differences that would impact this study.  In addition to a lack of evidence, you don't even provide one trained scientist that voices a similar personal speculation.

I have to say that your statement about this sounds arrogant.  it is as though your opinion constitutes evidence.  You say it, then proceed as though that establishes it as credible. I find it as revolting as a member several months back that would routinely attack Pentox with the same lack of evidence.  That is not being a skeptic.  It is formulating a theory without any basis.

What kind of forum would we have if 75 or so other members just started saying things like " I think it is clear that VED's using a separate hand pump are more prone to draw oxygen depleted blood into the penis and I encourage more research on this."  Three or four statements like that a day on different topics would  degenerate the entire forum into a confusion of defending the obvious from sniping speculation.  We have had some of these.  One guy challenged Pasture's "theory" on bacteria.  Because he was a nut we could laugh and dismiss it but we don't have that luxery with you. If we all started stating theories with no evidence it would be utter destruction of the forum.

Had you said "I have a hunch that some day some one may find ......"

I make allowance for goofballs and potheads that have established this as their style.  It is only a credit to you that I expect better from you.


Present the convincing evidence for your quote or concede you have none!

Hawk, You have asked for evidence, here it is:

Quote from: PubMedRadiofrequency radiation (900 MHz) induces Egr-1 gene expression and affects cell-cycle control in human neuroblastoma cells.
Buttiglione M, Roca L, Montemurno E, Vitiello F, Capozzi V, Cibelli G.

Department of Pharmacology and Human Physiology, University of Bari, Italy.

Many environmental signals, including ionizing radiation and UV rays, induce activation of Egr-1 gene, thus affecting cell growth and apoptosis. The paucity and the controversial knowledge about the effect of electromagnetic fields (EMF) exposure of nerve cells prompted us to investigate the bioeffects of radiofrequency (RF) radiation on SH-SY5Y neuroblastoma cells. The effect of a modulated RF field of 900 MHz, generated by a wire patch cell (WPC) antenna exposure system on Egr-1 gene expression, was studied as a function of time. Short-term exposures induced a transient increase in Egr-1 mRNA level paralleled with activation of the MAPK subtypes ERK1/2 and SAPK/JNK. The effects of RF radiations on cell growth rate and apoptosis were also studied. Exposure to RF radiation had an anti-proliferative activity in SH-SY5Y cells with a significant effect observed at 24 h. RF radiation impaired cell cycle progression, reaching a significant G2-M arrest. In addition, the appearance of the sub-G1 peak, a hallmark of apoptosis, was highlighted after a 24-h exposure, together with a significant decrease in mRNA levels of Bcl-2 and survivin genes, both interfering with signaling between G2-M arrest and apoptosis. Our results provide evidence that exposure to a 900 MHz-modulated RF radiation affect both Egr-1 gene expression and cell regulatory functions, involving apoptosis inhibitors like Bcl-2 and survivin, thus providing important insights into a potentially broad mechanism for controlling in vitro cell viability. 2007 Wiley-Liss, Inc.

PMID: 17559061 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

The above study demonstrates, I believe, that application of microwave energy can have other components than simply hyperthermia.  There is no inference in the abstract that the observed results are due to induced hyperthermia and there seems to be the assumption from the beginning that they are characteristic rather of application of RF energy on living tissue and not induced hyperthermia.

Quote from: PubMedMicrowave radiation can alter protein conformation without bulk heating.
de Pomerai DI, Smith B, Dawe A, North K, Smith T, Archer DB, Duce IR, Jones D, Candido EP.

School of Life and Environmental Sciences, University of Nottingham, University Park, NG7 2RD, Nottingham, UK.

Exposure to microwave radiation enhances the aggregation of bovine serum albumin in vitro in a time- and temperature-dependent manner. Microwave radiation also promotes amyloid fibril formation by bovine insulin at 60 degrees C. These alterations in protein conformation are not accompanied by measurable temperature changes, consistent with estimates from field modelling of the specific absorbed radiation (15-20 mW kg(-1)). Limited denaturation of cellular proteins could explain our previous observation that modest heat-shock responses are induced by microwave exposure in Caenorhabditis elegans. We also show that heat-shock responses both to heat and microwaves are suppressed after RNA interference ablating heat-shock factor function.

PMID: 12753912 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Here again in this study we see evidence of NON-HYPERTHERMIA effects of RF radiation.  This whole issue is so very complex and, with all due respect, I find it highly simplistic to argue that therapeutic microwave results ONLY in hyperthermia and can produce no other biological changes.  In fact, I find the second study highly interesting in that it alludes to "Limited denaturation of cellular proteins".  If indeed RF can induce changes in collagen independent of hyperthermia, then perhaps it can induce accelerated collagen turnover which just might explain the claimed efficacy of the Italian Peyronies study.  And if Peyronies itself is caused by faulty glucose metabolism, it would be reasonable to expect that those who demonstrated dramatic improvement in the study would later develop Peyronies symptoms all over again which just might explain why the whole thing was never pursued further.  Induced collagen turnover would be all but invisible in healthy tissue, but fibrotic tissue would reveal it dramatically.  OK, Hawk, I admit that this last part is just wild speculation on my part, but thats just how my brain operates. 

I stand by my statement.  - George

I said that heat might break unwanted molecular bonds, but I don't think that was the idea behind the original study. What I recall is that it was based on the knowledge that temperatures around 43C will cause the death of cancer cells but leave normal healthy cells unharmed - and Peyronie's/Dupuytren's fibroblasts have some characteristics in common with cancer cells.

Remember that microwaves and infrared are in some sense the same thing - just 2 different frequency ranges of electromagnetic radiation.  Microwaves are the high end of the radio spectrum - directly above them lies infrared - and just above that, the low end of the visible spectrum.  Microwaves can be bent, focused and refracted much like visible light. 

I don't know the science of why microwaves are used for hyperthermia instead of IR.  I tried IR because it was possible to due so at low cost, with off-the-shelf components.  Microwaves do penetrate more effectively than infrared - light won't penetrate the walls of your garage, but transmitter in your garage door opener does so easily.  So for tissue far below the surface, microwaves are more effective. For tissue at or near the surface, I don't know why there would be a difference.

j, I think we have a good discussion going here and I would like to comment further on it, but before I do, I really think it is probably time for Hawk to come in and move some of our recent posts back over to "Alternative Therapies" where they probably belong.  - George

j, Remember, first of all, the problem in the case of Peyronies is not so much with the cells, since they are normal and not cancerous, the problem is with the extracellular matrix and an excessive build up of collagen.  It is highly unlikely that the cells at issue with Peyronies would respond to hyperthermia in the same way as cancer cells.  Remember also that the effects rendered in the second study I pointed out from the UK were demonstrated to be ENTIRELY unrelated to induced hyperthermia and were directly due to the RF frequency being delivered, not the heat being caused by that RF energy.  In the case of the study I referred to, the Microwave radiation was actually CAUSING fibrosis WITHOUT inducing any hyperthermia, but my point was and is that this demonstrates that Microwave radiation can and does effect tissue by components other than its ability to heat that tissue AND it can directly affect the extracellular matrix, which in the case of Peyronies is mostly glycated collagen.  Certainly all of this does NOT preclude the very real possibility of benefit from hyperthermia itself.  But it does leave open the possibility that the participants in the Italian study could have been getting a double benefit, from both the induced hyperthermia AND from the unique effects of microwave radiation on tissue.  And of course, as I pointed out before, they could also have been fudging the numbers on the results.  Who knows?  But if ANYONE can get the kind of spectacular improvement they got within just a few months just from the use of hyperthermia, I would certainly like to hear about it and I am sure many others would also.  - George

First, I have been punished enough for this lively debate that broke out under "Oral Treatments" .  It took 40 minutes to figure out where to prune and trim that topic and to execute the move.

I am ready to wind down and am satisfied with the points:

George thinks he has found enough evidence to conclude it is likely that the type of heat energy made a significant impact on the Hyperthermia study.  He admits to some wild speculation,

Quote from: GeorgeInduced collagen turnover would be all but invisible in healthy tissue, but fibrotic tissue would reveal it dramatically.  OK, Hawk, I admit that this last part is just wild speculation on my part, but thats just how my brain operates.

I don't entirely fault wild speculation.  It can be both a asset and a liability.

Hawk thinks that while it is possible that the type of heat energy played a role (almost anything is possible), I think there is easily enough established documentation on temperature and fibrotic conditions, temperature and circulation, Peyronies Disease and circulation, temperature and cell death, and the abnormal longevity of Peyronies Disease cells, to establish the strong likelihood that temperature made any impact that was made in that study.  When stacked against the lack of established evidence for the type of heat being a factor on fibrotic tissue or cell life, I think that temperature is the obvious choice.

Peyronies Disease cells have been established in several studies to be prolific and to be absent the normal programmed cell death of typical cells, a condition found in cancer cells.

The fact is, that I have always questioned the entire study from method thru evaluation of results to conclusion.  Like J, after a while you have to ask what is with the Italian studies.  Europe gives us one-time miracles from hyperthermia, to ALC, Leriche technique that never spark enough interest for follow-up or fail to be reproduced. 

I still think ALC and hyperthermia are a no-lose treatments that will likely not hurt and possibly help.

Quote from: Hawk on March 14, 2008, 06:54:55 PMHawk thinks that while it is possible that the type of heat energy played a role (almost anything is possible), I think there is easily enough established documentation on temperature and fibrotic conditions, temperature and circulation, Peyronies Disease and circulation, temperature and cell death, and the abnormal longevity of Peyronies Disease cells to establish the strong likelihood that temperature made any impact that was made in that study.  When stacked against the lack of established evidence for the type of heat being a factor on fibrotic tissue or cell life, I think that temperature is the obvious choice.

Peyronies Disease cells have been established in several studies to be prolific and to be absent the normal programmed cell death of typical cells, a condition found in cancer cells.

I just did a quick look for research on Peyronies and hyperthermia and came up with only one hit:

Quote from: PubMedRole of hyperthermia in the treatment of Peyronie's disease: a preliminary study.
Perugia G, Liberti M, Vicini P, Colistro F, Gentile V.

Department of Urology, University of Rome La Sapienza, Rome, Italy.

OBJECTIVE: Previous experience in the treatment of plaque with hyperthermia in orthopaedics led the authors to investigate the effectiveness of this approach in patients with Peyronie's disease. PATIENTS AND METHODS: The study population comprised 60 patients (aged 36-76 years) with advanced Peyronie's disease. Patients were divided into two groups (A and B), with 30 in each. Group A patients underwent local hyperthermia treatment, with 30-min treatment sessions twice a week for 5 weeks. Patients received a total of 10 applications, which reached a local temperature of 39-40 degrees C. A second cycle was repeated after a 1-month interval for a total of 20 treatment sessions. Group B patients were treated with intra-plaque infiltrations using 10 mg verapamil; they received one infiltration once a week for 3 months. Differences between the two groups, as well as between variables (before and after treatment), were analysed using Student t-test and Fisher test. RESULTS: Hyperthermia significantly reduced plaque size and penile curvature and led to an increase in mean scores of erectile function (EF) domain, while verapamil had no such effects. Haemodynamic parameters were not significantly modified in either group. Hyperthermia caused significantly fewer side effects than verapamil infiltrations and was significantly more effective in preventing disease progression. There were no significant differences between the two groups in terms of pain reduction during erection. CONCLUSIONS: Results of this study stress the efficacy of hyperthermia in the treatment of advanced Peyronie's disease.

PMID: 16019862 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Do note that this is another one of those famous Italian studies.  I forthrightly acknowledge that there are a raft of hyperthermia/fibrosis studies out there, but in reviewing the listing I fail to find anything that look particularly applicable or interesting.  So if you wouldn't mind, I would appreciate you pointing out the documentation on fibrosis and hyperthermia.

I would also like to see any scrap of evidence you can find for Peyronies disease responding to improvements in circulation.  I can't find any.

Additionally, where is the research that establishes the "absent the normal programmed cell death" factor for "Peyronies" cells.  I am aware of the phenomenon of Collagen accumulation whereby cells involved in Peyronies are damaged to the point that they "sprout" abnormal amounts of Collagen on their surfaces.  I am also aware that the Collagen that becomes glycated does not turnover as often as normal Collagen.  But I have never seen anything attributing "immortality" to other than cancer cells.  I would really appreciate any studies ANYONE can find on this.

If we are going to dig into the area of Hyperthermia as it relates to Peyronies, lets do it right and get all of the relevant research out on the table.  Hawk asked for documentation and I provided what I can find.  I think now its time we see rest of the documentation for these other claims being made.

-  George

I appreciate your tenacity on this topic but some of this, and some of what you just stated, we have already covered. Additionally, I have a few other priorities other than digging this stuff out for further discussion.  This is why I said I was winding down on this in my last post.  Due to this I will simply say the following for now.  If I think time justifies it I will add more.

Check out our resource library for information on heat reducing scar tissue in general.  It is in the documents on scarring and is good reading.  Other information on heat/scarring/fibrosis is widely documented as you already mentioned.  Capsulitus (frozen shoulder) is but one brief example.  I have a close friend that is an orthopedic surgeon and I have a good rapport with the head of a great physical therapy department that I may approach about these general issues. 

Also in the resource library is a document making a connection between circulation /oxygen/TGF B-1 and fibrosis of the penis. https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,130.0.html  I have had leading urologists mention circulation and fibrosis as though it is an understood.  With VED's, Viagra, arginine, nocturnal erections, etc. surely you do not discount the connection between circulation and Peyronies Disease.

I think the findings on cellular longevity (not the word I am looking for) of Peyronies Disease cells was on Pub Med but I cannot be sure.  It may have even used the word "immortality". It discussed the absence of apoptosis in Peyronies Disease cells and drew a similarity to keloids as I recall.  It may well have also been referenced as part of an earlier discussion on this forum.

That is it for now.  I am off to enjoy life with grand children, wife, son etc.

Cheers

Hawk, Thanks for the references, they explain a lot.  At this point I am ready to concede that hyperthermia can be effective and that increased circulation may play a role in that.  I still have major doubts about the apoptosis (or rather lack of) factor though.  I would really like to see a reference to lack of appropriate cellular apoptosis in relation to Peyronies.  That would be interesting.  I am also wondering why hyperthermia has not been broken out into a separate topic since there is apparently significant interest in it.  - George

Thanks Hawk,  That is certainly a very good reference and exactly what I was looking for.  I really do think it is important to get all these factors documented on the forum.  I *did* do a search of the forum yesterday and was unable to turn anything up.  So this is an important step.  I think the next question, which probably actually belongs under the "Causes" thread, is just how all these things tie together.  Is the p53 protein, cell immortality phenomenon a genuine causal factor or just a link in the chain?

1)  We know that lack of oxygen can cause an over expression of TGF-beta-1, in which case normalizing circulation and oxygen levels would fully address the problem.

2)  We also know that faulty glucose metabolism can cause glycation which can also cause over expression of TGF-beta-1, in which case only addressing glucose metabolism AND resulting glycation would fully address the problem.

3)  And of course, one could conceive a combination of these two pathways exacerbating the TGF-beta-1 problem.

3)  But where does the p53 protein fit into this equation.  Upstream or downstream?  Actually it causes me to wonder if what is going on with the p53 protiein is being induced by the TGF-beta-1, which could explain why both hyperthermia and antiglycants like Pentox and ALC have shown effectiveness against Peyronies.  That would certainly be interesting to look into.  We do know that there are things which normally modulate the activity of p53.  In fact chemotherapy in the oncology world typically attacks p53.  And there is a new drug coming out now that can precisely modulate p53 WITHOUT damaging normal tissue.

4)  When I look at the research in this area, I see that, indeed, TGF-beta-1 DOES modulate p53!  But the really strange thing is that increases in TGF-beta-1 affect p53 in a way that cause it to ACCELERATE apoptosis, which is just the reverse of what is actually happening.  This is exactly the scenario one finds with cancer.  High level of TGF-beta-1 which SHOULD be causing mass apoptosis, but instead a complete absence of normal apoptosis.  What is going on here!  Could it be that if levels of TGF-beta-1 get too high, they lose their ability to exert control over p53?  Could it be that p53 could develop TGF-beta resistance in a similar way to cells developing insulin resistance?  In that case, the solution would be to restore normal levels of TGF-beta-1.  And this could be an explanation of why hyperthermia has been shown to work against fibrosis.  Hyperthermia -> Increased circulation -> Increased oxygen -> Lowered levels of TGF-beta-1 -> Restoral of p53 modulation -> Normalized apoptosis of fibroblasts.

All these bits of research are really just pieces of the bigger picture and if they can be successfully stitched together the whole reveals much more than the pieces.  - George

I think I have caught up with the on-going debate between Hawk and George regarding hyperthermia and mangosteen, glycation and p53, and apoptosis and blood flow, on oxygen delivery and the effects of stretch on TGF-Beta 3 expression (oops, they missed that last one).

Several thoughts...

Doing science in the lab has taught me a lot of humility, especially when I come face to face with truly great minds in science who are able to look at what I have done and see more than I did, because of their holistic viewpoints of science and physiology. I have learned that it is ALWAYS more complicated than we think. Yet, doing science requires a reductionist approach. When someone studies the effects of, say, PGE2 on muscle function - how do you go after that? What you do is typically done in several ways. First, you use an agonist to replicate the presumed effect. For example, you might take some muscle and incubate it with PGE2, and then with a PGE2 analog. Second, you use a PGE2 blocker to see if you can prevent the effect. Third, you have to look at what a similar molecule does. Only in this way do we start to see what adding or removing/blocking of a molecule leads to. But assumptions always get in the way.

A friend once "proved" that a certain type of bacteria "caused" high blood pressure in the lungs, but he then found that when he infused polystyrene beads of the same size into the pigs, he got the same response. That was how we came to see that pigs have white cells resident in the lungs that respond to ANYTHING, not just bacteria.

Again and again (in fact, I dare say EVERY time) I have found that it is like peeling an onion - every new discovery leads to yet another discovery.

Ultimately, I think that we spend too much time and energy trying to find the "answer" when in fact there are many answers and truths to be learned. George is probably right about the role of glycation, but I doubt it underlies all Peyronie's Disease, because it can't. There is never a single answer to any of this. Similarly, I think Hawk is overly simplistic to suggest that heat is heat - it can't be. By definition (because her are human) we cannot know all of what happens to people under biological stress. I could see heat loosening sulfhydryl bonds in collagen and allowing natural degradation to occur more easily (and improvement of Peyronie's). I could also imagine heat-induced aggregation of macromolecules leading to sludging in small capillaries, and thus leading to local hypoxic damage to tissue (and worsening of Peyronie's). And in physiology, if you can imagine it, then it can happen, probably.

Hawk, I think that what George offers us is his desire and ability to integrate data from other fields that help improve the anti-oxidant and anti-glycation status of our health in a way that will probably be beneficial to our health, and probably not hurtful. There are no data to support the notion that any of it will "cure" Peyronie's Disease. And to the extent that it "makes sense" to some of us (perhaps most of all to George!) ;) then I guess it stands to risk misinforming those incapable of discriminant thinking here. I believe that this is true of the VED though, also.

The main difference is that with the VED we have testimonials, which carry their own risks (ie, they can be wrong, and are without controls to compare against). The problem with inductive reasoning like George's is that... it can be wrong.

But overall, I think that we are on to something here. We can try un-hurtful things and see if they help - and create more testimonials. I think that George's holistic biological approach is useful, in that it helps me think about alternative mechanisms. Certainly, the link between diabetes and Peyronie's is not only due to reduced blood flow. Or, it could be that simple... But wait! Nothing is ever simple.

The trouble then is sorting out the meaning of the variety of ideas and data presented here. Our very human tendency to not completely do anything as well as we should will also really complicate things (I have never been able to take anything EVERY day of the week). Was the iontophoresis not as good for me as the published data because I didn't follow their protocol? Is my tendency to cheat on sweets now and then why George's diet is not yielding the same results (oh, BTW, he and I both still have Peyronie's)? I don't know. All we can be is uncertain.

Tim

Quote from: j on March 14, 2008, 03:31:15 PM
I said that heat might break unwanted molecular bonds, but I don't think that was the idea behind the original study. What I recall is that it was based on the knowledge that temperatures around 43C will cause the death of cancer cells but leave normal healthy cells unharmed - and Peyronie's/Dupuytren's fibroblasts have some characteristics in common with cancer cells.

Remember that microwaves and infrared are in some sense the same thing - just 2 different frequency ranges of electromagnetic radiation.  Microwaves are the high end of the radio spectrum - directly above them lies infrared - and just above that, the low end of the visible spectrum.  Microwaves can be bent, focused and refracted much like visible light. 

I don't know the science of why microwaves are used for hyperthermia instead of IR.  I tried IR because it was possible to due so at low cost, with off-the-shelf components.  Microwaves do penetrate more effectively than infrared - light won't penetrate the walls of your garage, but transmitter in your garage door opener does so easily.  So for tissue far below the surface, microwaves are more effective. For tissue at or near the surface, I don't know why there would be a difference.

The frequencies are *much* different, microwave is a "heavier", and can affect cells, vs IR which does not. Cells all have a certain resonance frequency which can't be attained using IR, which using microwaves will. Think of a microwave oven - it targets the resonance frequency of water, the water vibrates at that resonance frequency which then causes the water molecules to jump and moves - which releases energy in the forms of heat. They're targeting the resonance frequency of plaque - which is mostly made of calcium, and other sterols such as the high and low density forms of cholesterol - mostly LD. Finding the "optimum" resonance frequency of the plaque is the problem, and can be very damaging to other cells in trying to find out, since it's not a uniform composition. It's almost the same conditions which allow atherosclerosis.

Don't use IR or microwave, or any type of sub-visual or over visual wavelengths on yourself, you don't know what exactly that resonance is targeting - could even be DNA ( which is what radiation is/does).

Quote from: George999 on May 14, 2008, 11:42:36 AM
We know that Trauma is a key factor in initiating Peyronies.  That makes me more than a little suspicious of techniques that employ trauma in there delivery.  Both needles used to administer things like Verapamil or Collagenase and ultrasound or other waveforms used to attack plaque are literally inflicting trauma in the process.  This sounds to me like it could turn into some sort of chronic treatment scheme.  Sorry to inject skepticism here, but I can't help but wondering if we are not barking up the wrong tree with these approaches.  - George

Which is what I was getting at. Something like heat therapy could cause other damage and lead to necrosis.

Quote from: UK on January 21, 2009, 05:26:01 AM
I think this may have been posted before but there is a trial with hyperthermia planned or ongoing in Brazil, can't find anything else on it so hope that they are still going ahead with it.

http://www.controlled-trials.com/ISRCTN82950322/

I'am very happy with somethings that i read here lately. Many studies are ongoing. Traction, hyperthermia, the XIAFLEX that some users are participating, the hope about pentox. All these things indicate that in a close future an efective treatment will be avaible to us.

I'm studying medicine at this university that is doing the hyperthermia's study. I don't know the doctor that is commanding the study, i think that he just work in the hospital, not teachs. I will try to contact him to know about this study, mainly the previous results, and then i post here again.

It has almost 2 weeks that i'm doing an "alternative" hyperthermia treatment in my home, that i planned, with the little shower (i don't know the name in english!) that is connected in the shower and 50 C water. In the last days i start to feel pain in my nodule, twinges sporadically... (I did not feel pain since my peyronie stabilized, almost two years ago). I don't know if this is good or not... But i will continue at least more 3 weeks... Then i will do an ultrasonography to follow the evolution of my plaques (I do one to each 3 months).

Thanks, and always apologies for my english.

Tommarkey

Be carful not to use too high of a heat setting.  The past studies have used low heat.  There are also warnings that high heat can lead to tissue death.

terryd:

What I am about relate will probably bring up comments that massaging scar tissue won't work. But, recently, I underwent surgery for Dupuytrens Contractures. I have undergone several weeks of occupational therapy wherein the therapist uses cocoa butter to thoroughly massage my hand. This is done after a 15 minute heat treatment in a machine that uses hot air and a corn product to warm the hand. The hand is bombarded with this product by the heated air being blown around inside the cabinet.

Today, the scar tissue that remains is barely visible and the incision line is virtually gone. The results so far are entirely satisfactory for me. I know that this has absolutely nothing to do with Peyronies Disease symptoms, but it demonstrates that massaging a scar on the external part of ones body can and will respond to physical massaging.

Don't think that Peyronies Disease would respond in the same way since there is no way to get ones penis into a machine such as is used on the hand, etc.

Old Man

Hi

has any one any experience of hypertherapy treatment? The trials in Italy in 2006 seemed to give some hope but I would like to hear from any one who has tried it lately?
Thanks

Royswales

Quote from: royswales on April 26, 2009, 04:29:31 PM
Hi

has any one any experience of hypertherapy treatment?

I assume you mean hyperthermia.  Go to search and type in the term.  You will find a lot posted about it.  In short, I know of no one that can document improvement directly associated to hyperthermia but many use it with caution along with VED or Traction or other treatments.

Hyperthermia

I have been trying to apply heat in the form of hot water which I have put into a plastic tube (I checked the temperature ensuring no more than 41 degrees) for 20 minutes. It has only been for a few says now - no difference yet.
I thought that the Italian trial sounded promising and would have hoped that another scientific trial could have been started to corroborate the results of the first.

I was just hoping to hear from any one else on the site who had tried any form of hyperthermia.

I believe there is a Brazilian trial going on now.  - George

All - This hyperthermia technique sounds interesting. The trial listed in the pdf certainly put it in a positive light, though it was very smallscale. Hopefully ongoing studies will eventually give us a better idea of whether this can be useful to us.

newguy:  here is a novice's take on the hypothermia debate.  I am very new to this entire scene.  I most recently joined the VED club.

I experimented at first to become acquainted the the..."equipment" and I found that taking a hot "relaxing" shower prior to stretching afforded me a longer no-pain stretching period.  I equate it to taking a steam prior to a massage....warm and relax (although the plaque is deep-seated I think the heat does permeate to some depth).  Maybe I am wrong, but the application of heat (the hand-held shower directly on my penis) prior to stretching works for me....followed by a warm rinse after.
This is what I call a very-small control group!
Jackieo

Jackieo - Thanks very much for your thoughts. I suppose there are still a great number of unknowns, but heat can no doubt be of some use, prior to VED use, and traction.

Hey Skunkworks,

Could you share the heat study with us?

Maybe that's something we'd actually like to know about.

TM

Went to try and find it and discovered it was already on this forum.

https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php?topic=294.0

QuoteHyperthermia significantly reduced plaque size and penile curvature (Table I, Figure 1)
and increased mean scores of EF domain (Table I, Figure 1), while verapamil did not
cause any change in these parameters. Haemodynamic parameters were not significantly
modified in either group (Table I, Figure 2). Hyperthermia caused significantly fewer side
effects than verapamil infiltrations and was significantly more effective in preventing disease
progression. There were no significant differences between the two groups in the reduction
of pain during erection.

It would be interesting to look at how hyperthermia affects autoimmune disease.

In rats, whole body hyperthermia lessens the impact of an induced autoimmune response PMID 18402844 (http://"http://pubmed.gov/18402844")):

QuoteCONCLUSIONS: Whole-body hyperthermia attenuates experimental myocarditis in the rat. The beneficial effect of whole-body hyperthermia may be related to immunomodulatory effect and direct cardiomyocyte protection.

Sauna anyone?

In a mouse study on autoimmune encephalomyelitis (PMID 11299319 (http://"http://pubmed.gov/11299319")):

QuoteThe stress response (SR) can block inflammatory gene expression by preventing activation of transcription factor nuclear factor-kappa B (NF-kappaB). ... The HSR attenuated leukocyte infiltration into CNS assessed by quantitation of perivascular infiltrates, and by reduced staining for CD4 and CD25 immunopositive T-cells. T-cell activation, assessed by the production of interferon gamma (IFNgamma) in response to MOG(35-55), was also decreased by the HSR.

s&s

I did my own hyperthermia in bath. 107 for 25 minutes. This was a mistake, but it helped. But please lower temperature. My balls turned black and I suffered some slight burns. The 107 temp was too high. 104 is highest that spas can go and is much safer. Its time and temp. So don't kill the cells in your penis.

But the results were good. My tunica has had a major dent or wrinkle that was causing 25 curve to the right. I have no hard plaque on outside to the touch, but ultrasound shows distributed bands inside. Was a recent injury from a wild girl on top (note - never allow any girl on top, nice and gentle is not in some girls vocabulary). This was devastating to me and extremely painful. But after 2 times in spa, I made myself get hard watching porn right after and noticed my curve was 10 degrees and the tunica wrinkle gone. 5 hrs later, the tunica was much better than ever before and that wrinkle has not come back. Curve is now stable for 2 weeks at 10-15 degrees. Some morning are a problem and so I get in 100-103 degree bath and warm it up before I make an erection occur. This is helping stretch it out. I never force the stretch though, that's a mistake. Just let the erection make it happen. The heat is really helping.

I am going to try some heat before bed. Will put heat pad over shorts (never direct or burns can occur).

I think this works for tunica problems. My scarring of the tunica was causing some of my bend and a ton of pain. Pain is way down. Almost livable again. I am going in spa at 100 deg now 4-5 times daily for 15 minutes to keep it flexible. 104 is too hot for multiple times. The health club is 103 and right next to my house.

Please don't do 107 deg. Its dangerous. Could have lost my unit. It was embarrassing going to urgent care with completely black balls. The problem with 107 is that it was probably 109 as my temp probe is + or - 2 deg. 110 causes 3rd degree burns after 5 minutes. I also had trouble with the erection after 107 and struggled to help it. My penis was probably at 107 by that point and was overheating.

Hope this helps for some. I think its great for certain types of injuries and maybe not for others. Try and see if the erection is less bent. But don't force. I tried that a few weeks earlier and the pain after that was a 10 as I ripped it worse. let your unit fix the bend naturally.

Let me preface by saying that I'm aware this topic has been covered to some degree, as I have read what is on this site addressing this issue. I felt it was woefully lacking in coverage. I have been researching sporadically for quite some time, the role of nitric oxide in recovery of Peyronie's Disease plaques, but as I am severely lacking in cellular physiology background, I get lost with all the terms, i.e., NO, iNOS, NOS, "expression of", etc. Just can't get my head around it. I therefore need help from this forum from someone with this background. I promise, I'll get to the point soon. But for now can someone look into the below study, which is eerily similar to every other article I've found, and either confirm or deny my rudimentary understanding, that elevation of NO levels have some anti-plaque formation, and possibly a plaque "breakdown" capability?
In other words, if some device greatly increased NO locally, is this a good thing, or a bad thing?
Happy reading, and thanks in advance for the assistance!
PTMAN

Abstract:

The myofibroblast shares phenotypic features of both fibroblasts and smooth muscle cells. It plays a critical role in collagen deposition and wound healing and disappears by apoptosis when the wound is closed. Its abnormal persistence leads to hypertrophic scar formation and other fibrotic conditions. Myofibroblasts are present in the fibrotic plaque of the tunica albuginea (TA) of the penis in men with Peyronie's disease (Peyronies Disease), a localized fibrosis that is accompanied by a spontaneous induction of the inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS), also observed in the TGF1-elicited, Peyronies Disease-like lesion in the rat model. iNOS expression counteracts fibrosis, by producing nitric oxide (NO) that reduces collagen deposition in part by neutralization of profibrotic reactive oxygen species. In this study we investigated whether fibroblast differentiation into myofibroblasts is enhanced in the human and rat Peyronies Disease-like plaque and in cultures of human tissue fibroblasts. We also examined whether NO reduces this cell differentiation and collagen synthesis. The myofibroblast content in the fibroblast population was measured by quantitative immunohistochemistry as the ratio between-smooth muscle actin (ASMA; myofibroblast marker) and vimentin (general fibroblast marker) levels. We found that myofibroblast content was considerably increased in the human and TGF1-induced rat plaques as compared to control TA. Inhibition of iNOS activity by chronic administration of l-iminoethyl-l-lysine to rats with TGF1-induced TA lesion increased myofibroblast abundance and collagen I synthesis measured in plaque and TA homogenates from animals injected with a collagen I promoter construct driving the expression of-galactosidase. Fibroblast differentiation into myofibroblasts occurred with passage in the cell cultures from the human Peyronies Disease plaque, but was minimal in cultures from the TA. Induction of iNOS in Peyronies Disease and TA cultures with a cytokine cocktail and a NO donor,S-nitroso-N-acetyl penicillamine (SNAP), was detected by immunohistochemistry. Both treatments reduced the total number of cells and the number of ASMA positive cells, whereas only SNAP decreased collagen I immunostaining. These results support the hypotheses that myofibroblasts play a role in the development of the Peyronies Disease plaque and that the antifibrotic effects of NO may be mediated at least in part by the reduction of myofibroblast abundance and lead to a reduction in collagen I synthesis.

Quote from: PTMAN on November 01, 2009, 12:31:32 PM
In other words, if some device greatly increased NO locally, is this a good thing, or a bad thing?

I think the study is saying that NO production is helpful against Peyronies Disease. The wikipedia entry for the biological functions of NO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_functions_of_nitric_oxide) might be helpful to read.

From that article:

QuoteVasodilation
Nitric Oxide (NO) is of critical importance as a mediator of vasodilation in blood vessels. It is induced by several factors, and once synthesized by eNOS it results in phosphorylation of several proteins that cause smooth muscle relaxation. The vasodilatory actions of nitric oxide plays a key role in renal control of extracellular fluid homeostasis and is essential for the regulation of blood flow and blood pressure. [4]. This also plays a role in erection of the penis.

eNOS synthesizes NO, but it requires l-arginine. NO is also a potent oxidant, but one that the body makes use of, for signaling or for killing bacteria. It's not my impression that people suffer from out-of-control NO production that damages the body (please correct me if I'm wrong). Levels of NO are usually low in diabetes, and diabetes is known to be a risk factor in Peyronies Disease. I think low NO is bad for Peyronies Disease. The article states: "Diminished supply of Nitric Oxide can lead to vascular damage, such as endothelial dysfunction and vascular inflammation."

On the other hand, some viruses need relatively much l-arginine for reproduction, so taking too much l-arginine might not always be helpful. Maybe pycnogenol helps the l-arginine go farther without feeding the viruses. Pycnogenol also increases NO production and inhibits at least some viruses, so that's at least potentially a better way to go.

slowandsteady,
Thands for weighing in. This is a very interesting topic for me, as I believe this discussion could lead to a helpful adjunct treatment, or at least the possibility. To me, that's what this forum is here for.
If I'm understanding the lingo correctly, iNOS leads to NO, which in turn controls fibroblast activity, which forms the collagen that peyronie's plaque is made of. If for some reason the precursers of NO become depleted, collagen derived plaques develope =>(peyronie's disease). The information in this article does not go so far as to theorize that drastic increase of NO would degrade the plaques, but others that I have read have. It states something to the effect of "allowing for uptake of fibrotic plaque by the body and replacement with more normal elastic tissue."  Wish I had saved the article as I'm finding it difficult to find again! But I know what I read. This is all contengent upon my being right about this information:

(Myofibroblasts are present in the fibrotic plaque of the tunica albuginea (TA) of the penis in men with Peyronie's disease (Peyronies Disease), a localized fibrosis that is accompanied by a spontaneous induction of the inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS), also observed in the TGF1-elicited, Peyronies Disease-like lesion in the rat model. iNOS expression counteracts fibrosis, by producing nitric oxide (NO) that reduces collagen deposition in part by neutralization of profibrotic reactive oxygen species.)

In doing research on this disease, and treatments for it, low and behold I found out that the mechanism for at least 2 drugs (probably more) was production of NO!      1.) Trental     2.) L-Arginine
Seems to support my theory, doesn't it? I really think this is important. Can someone tell me if I'm on base or off...
thanks P.T.

On Trental:

QuoteThe mechanism is not fully understood; pentox blocks the transforming growth factor (TGF) B1- mediated pathway of inflammation, prevents deposition of collagen type 1, and acts as a nonspecific (PDE) inhibitor.

PTMAN, see this post (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,22.msg20172.html#msg20172) of mine.

This is my first post on this forum although I have been lurking for years even back to the old BTC forum.

Some have already noted this Brazilian study that is currently underway.
I contacted the doctor conducting this study to determine if this infrared treatment was efficatious in his oppinion.

His Reply

"Thanks for your email.

I can assure you that this treatment really cure Peyronie's disease, but it is a long process (at least 2 or more years) of daily treatment. But infortunately infrared lamp alone does not work as well as the combined therapy. I have made some amendments to the protocol existing in the internet. In fact I have increased the goal to be reached in testosterone level to the highest normal level in order to have best results and the same with vit D levels.
I think that I you really wish to carry out this treatment you can send to me your lab exams, some photographs of your penis during erection ( from a lateral view and from above to measure the curvature in both perspectives) and also an echography of your penis to measure the size of plaques. You may also have to not fulfil the exclusion criteria already stated and you will have to consult an urologist to examine your prostate (rectal exam and prostate echography) . 

You can also write to Prof. Abraham Morgentaler from Harvard University (amorgent@yahoo.com) asking him if he will accept to participate in my trial because you are not the only suffer of Peyronie's disease from USA who sent to me emails seeking help.

I hope I could help you more

Sincerely

Carlos C. Cusmanich, MD"

Best to all,
Rockwall

Good work!! Does anyone know the best kind of vitamin D to take?

The best Vitamin D To Take is Vitamin D3

I really am confident that Hyperthermia treatment works, only because i have seen what it does. I need to find out how many degrees my hot bath is coming out to because i don't want to cause any tissue damage. Are there baths that can get so hot that its dangerous? I live in a hotel so im hoping that wouldn't be that case.

I think you should all read the hyperthermia studies very closely. Tissue necrosis sets in quite quickly at certain temps.

kk read it all. I found my themometer and the heat of the baths I have been taking are over 110 ferehnheit. The themometer wouldn't show me how much because it would just stop after 110. I haven't felt any pain or anything but now I'm worried ive already caused cell damage.

I would not be worried about your bath.  I too tried hyperthermia a couple years ago and then freaked out because I read those studies warning about not going above 105 degrees.  I tested the rice sock I was using and it was hotter than that, so I freaked out thinking my weiner was going to fall off or something. 

Truth be told, I don't believe a hot bath is going to do you any harm - and if it were so hot as to do you harm, it would hurt like hell and you'd never get into it or jump out of it immediately.  A burn is a burn, and if your skin is not showing signs of a burn, I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Nemo

I think it would be idiotic to risk further harm to an already damaged part of your body.

Despise in particular, you need to take more care. If your baths are over 110 you are risking permanent cell damage.

QuoteThis study used temperature between 102 - 104 degrees F.  The researchers conclude temperatures of 107.6 degrees F are safe for limited periods but stress that temperatures of just 113 degrees F can result in irreversible cell damage.

https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,915.msg13542.html#msg13542 (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,915.msg13542.html#msg13542)

Does temperature hot enough to cause damage really hurt, or do you really have to measure to be safe?

Quote from: slowandsteady on November 01, 2009, 04:31:14 PM
On the other hand, some viruses need relatively much l-arginine for reproduction, so taking too much l-arginine might not always be helpful.

For example, if one has genital herpes, l-arginine is not recommended as it may contribute to causing an outbreak.
Fred

O.K., I'm finally back! Sorry it took so long. I've been really busy with work, family, etc...
Thanks to all for weighing in.
I promised I would get to the point, and tonight's the night :)
It seems the consensus here is that N.O. is a good thing for Peyronie's Disease, especially for stopping further plaque from developing. My question is still, will it "denature" or "disolve" the plaque that has already formed? If I'm understanding all the info I've read out there on the net, the answer is yes.
The reason for my intense interest in this question is this. I have access to a machine used in Physical Therapy called Anodyne Therapy. Google it if you want. The way it works is that a 3" by 4" pad is placed on the skin which shines infrared light into the deeper tissue. The light forces these tissues to release their stored up N.O. 
Local N.O. content is thereby greatly increased for a period of time (several hours or days, depending where you read). I have had much success with this treatment on diabetic feet and lower legs with restoring sensation lost to neuropathy. The action is again, increasing nitric oxide production locally.
An added benefit is local vasodilation for a period of hours, improving circulation.
I've been mulling this topic in my mind for some months now.
Surely the answer, or "magic bullet", hasn't been within my reach all this time?
Now I must decide- will the treatment make my Peyronie's worse?
If not, will I choose to "experiment" on myself?
I read where someone else on the forum tried to use an Infrared light bulb on himself, but found the heat produced to be prohibitive. He was doing the best he could with what he had.
The Anodyne people have solved this problem, as the pads have rows and rows of small infrared bulbs, and a control knob to set intensity. A small amount of heat is released as a byproduct, but is not the intended mechanism. I will try to find some info on the net and post here for your convenience.
Please respond if you have thoughts on this topic, either positive or negative.
As you can tell, I'm pretty stoked about the prospects.             Thanks, PTMAN

Promised some web info... Here's some


Anodyne Therapy



Anodyne therapy is a unique light therapy used for the treatment of pain. This infrared therapy effectively brings pain relief without the use of drugs and is non-invasive. It does this by harnessing the healing power of infrared light. Infrared light emits wave lengths of energy and it can penetrate up to 5cm into the body.




This monochromatic infra-red photo-thermal energy improves circulation to nerves and tissues in the area where the treatment pads are placed and so reduces neuropathic pain, stiffness, muscle spasms and areas of chronic pain.

The key to the dramatic improvement in blood flow with Anodyne light therapy is Nitric Oxide. The infrared light therapy helps the body to release this gas from the blood cells. Nitric Oxide gas is the body's most powerful vasodilator and also known to be one of the main pain relieving ingredients in pain medications such as morphine. Nitric Oxide molecules relax the arteries, help regulate blood pressure, fights free radicals, and discourages platelets from clumping together in the blood vessels. By increasing the production of nitric oxide and improving circulation, Anodyne therapy relieves pain.

The Anodyne treatment system is simple and painless. Four flexible pads, each containing 60 small infrared lights, are placed directly on the skin over the area of pain or injury. Therapy pads are flexible so they can fit the shape of parts of the body. The pad is in direct contact with the skin so the light can be better absorbed by the skin. Energy from the lights penetrates beneath the skin and is absorbed by deep tissue causing the body to release nitric oxide, making the blood vessels become larger. After just 30 minutes of treatment, blood flow is enhanced by 400 percent, and this boost in local circulation persists for several hours after the pads are removed.

Anodyne light therapy provides a painless, non - invasive treatment for anyone where an increase in circulation would help with relief of pain and inflammation or a condition characterized by poor circulation

It is fast becoming a popular treatments for diabetic peripheral neuropathy and a wide variety of other clinical conditions such as fibromyalgia, carpal tunnel syndrome, strains and sprains, and wounds of any nature. Anodyne infrared therapy is used by the US military to treat elite soldiers in the Navy SEALs, Army Rangers, and Special Forces. Hospitals and nursing homes use it to relieve most any kind of chronic pain. Anodyne therapy can be used during occupational therapy treatments to make other therapy more bearable, such as improving strength, flexibility, movement and function.

The manufacturer also emphasizes that Anodyne Therapy has been clinically proven to increase local microcirculation and reduce pain. It says there are several clinical studies that demonstrate significant clinical outcomes including restoration of protective sensation in patients with diabetic peripheral neuropathy, pain reduction, increased nerve conduction and faster healing of diabetic ulcers and other chronic wounds.


Interesting, no?

Here's some more...


Anodyne Therapy works as a non-invasive, drug-free method to increase local circulation to nerves and tissues and reduce neuropathic pain. Treatment in Anodyne Neuropathy Care Centers® is reimbursed by most private insurance companies and Medicare. Patients may be able to get a home system through their insurance or Medicare if they have objective improvement in their condition after a clinical course of treatment.

Anodyne Therapy works by using monochromatic infrared energy (MIRE) to release nitric oxide from the patient's red blood cells. This improves nerve function and is important for making new blood vessels and healing wounds. It is reported that "low levels of nitric oxide are common in people with diabetes and are a major factor in the poor circulation, loss of sensation, chronic falls, foot ulcers and pain of diabetic peripheral neuropathy."

The manufacturer also emphasizes that Anodyne Therapy has been clinically proven to increase local microcirculation and reduce pain. It says there are several clinical studies that demonstrate significant clinical outcomes including restoration of protective sensation in patients with diabetic peripheral neuropathy, pain reduction, increased nerve conduction and faster healing of diabetic ulcers and other chronic wounds. Podiatrists also tout the product's benefits.

The Anodyne Therapy works by using a device - a box with eight pads. The light from the diodes on the pads is absorbed by hemoglobin in the blood, causing the release of nitric oxide. Nitric Oxide causes dilation of the blood vessels and increases blood flow to the affected area. Ultimately, the treatment can help form new blood vessels in the treated area, allowing the wound to heal faster.


THERE'S THAT NITRIC OXIDE THING AGAIN :)

I've been using a heating pad (thermotex infrared) for about 2 months (in conjunction with traction -4 hours a day, pentox and arginine and vitamin d) and have seen limited improvement but time is of course the issue here. I would like to try this anodyne treatment. Do you know if it is available to the public and what the cost might be - I looked at their site and it didn't seem like they sell to the public. Thanks and good luck.

Quote from: ohno on November 19, 2009, 11:48:13 PMI would like to try this anodyne treatment. Do you know if it is available to the public and what the cost might be - I looked at their site and it didn't seem like they sell to the public. Thanks and good luck.

This looks VERY interesting to me, I really think it just might be useful, but  :o ->$$$$$$$ (http://www.activeforever.com/p-4927-anodyne-therapy-at-home-heated-tennis-elbow-treatment.aspx)

Certainly worth it of course if it works, but I think this time I will let someone else do the test drive.  - George

In the Anodyne home model procedure manual it states "Anodyne is much easier to use than earlier forms of infrared and,
unlike traditional infrared (which can be placed no closer than
twelve inches from the skin without burns), Anodyne is designed
to be placed in direct contact with the skin without serious risk
of burns, if used properly in accordance with the Instructions
for Use."
Traditional infrared I would assume to be a heat lamp. I purchased mine at Home depot for about $25. Fairly aggressive daily treatment for 30-40 min per session on both my hand and penis for 3-weeks has not apparently burned me yet. And for the big question. I think it is helping slightly especially with the Dupuyren"s but it is only three weeks and the Brazilian Doctor who has a current trial using this method said that he assures me that it works but, it takes 2+ years. I am hoping for progress in the interim.
I agree with George if the price is not listed I probably can't afford it.

Rockwall

Quote from: rockwall on November 20, 2009, 06:28:36 PM
I agree with George if the price is not listed I probably can't afford it.

Rockwall

Actually, those $$$$$$$ are a hidden link to the price ...  - George

I found a web site that sells a home system. The prices vary from $597 to $1399. The Freedom 300 Model at $597 should be adequate.

Quote from: hb on November 22, 2009, 09:10:20 PM
I found a web site that sells a home system. The prices vary from $597 to $1399. The Freedom 300 Model at $597 should be adequate.

If you decide to get it, keep us posted.  This sounds interesting to me.

Fred

Quote from: George999 on November 20, 2009, 05:17:13 PM
This looks VERY interesting to me, I really think it just might be useful, but  :o ->$$$$$$$ (http://www.activeforever.com/p-4927-anodyne-therapy-at-home-heated-tennis-elbow-treatment.aspx)

The link you posted is for an elbow strap for $300. There is also a wrist strap for $249 (http://www.activeforever.com/p-4807-anodyne-therapy-at-home-heated-carpal-tunnel-wrist-wrap.aspx?cs=A16743). I guess what you'd care about is the number of diodes; they might answer that question if they were contacted. I checked but couldn't find a penis strap.

Infrared light to increase blood circulation is an interesting therapy. I get trigger points (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigger_points) in my back. I wonder if there is any connection with Peyronies Disease, since both are connective tissue issues that are worsened by poor circulation to the affected areas.

This might make for a good DIY project too.

Note to all:

I now have acquired an infrared heating pad. It has worked very well for use with my lower back problems in that with about 15 minutes of using it, the pain is reduced to almost nothing. It lasts for over 12 hours before coming back. Have had back surgery way back in 1968 and have had chronic lower back pain ever since with no lasting relief, so this has become a plus in that department!!!!

It is one of types that have exotic stones that are round shaped in an oblong pattern. The heat is applied to them through the heating elements contained in a 12 x 18 pad that has a control for the amount of heat, time limit and can be adjusted to ones personal feelings, etc.

Since my Peyronies Disease is under control and I don't have any symptoms, I cannot give it a try for that. However, I will be using it in the groin area to observe if any improvements in erections and/or size changes. Have been told by the makers of it that it can help with both ED and Peyronies Disease. However, since my ED has been with me since the age of 55, there probably will not be much improvement there. (The VED has "cured" that problem for me though)

Will give updates on how the pad works for me so that others can have the benefit, etc.

Old Man

Actually, a few hundred dollars is a bargain for something that provides relief.  Even if you get something intending to use if for Peyronie's and it doesn't work, but works extremely well for some other health issue, it is still a bargain.  I look forward to additional reports like Old Man's from guys trying these devices.  - George

Quote from: rockwall on November 06, 2009, 04:08:18 PM
This is my first post on this forum although I have been lurking for years even back to the old BTC forum.

Some have already noted this Brazilian study that is currently underway.
I contacted the doctor conducting this study to determine if this infrared treatment was efficatious in his oppinion.

His Reply

"Thanks for your email.

I can assure you that this treatment really cure Peyronie's disease, but it is a long process (at least 2 or more years) of daily treatment. But infortunately infrared lamp alone does not work as well as the combined therapy. I have made some amendments to the protocol existing in the internet. In fact I have increased the goal to be reached in testosterone level to the highest normal level in order to have best results and the same with vit D levels.
I think that I you really wish to carry out this treatment you can send to me your lab exams, some photographs of your penis during erection ( from a lateral view and from above to measure the curvature in both perspectives) and also an echography of your penis to measure the size of plaques. You may also have to not fulfil the exclusion criteria already stated and you will have to consult an urologist to examine your prostate (rectal exam and prostate echography) . 

You can also write to Prof. Abraham Morgentaler from Harvard University (amorgent@yahoo.com) asking him if he will accept to participate in my trial because you are not the only suffer of Peyronie's disease from USA who sent to me emails seeking help.

I hope I could help you more

Sincerely

Carlos C. Cusmanich, MD"

Best to all,
Rockwall

I'm really surprised that this post has not attracted more debate.

It looks a legitimate trial http://www.controlled-trials.com/ISRCTN82950322/  isn't this what we are all looking for ???

I've mailed the Doctor a few days back enquiring when the results of the study will be out but not heard anything so far.

I agree 100% that this is encouraging (2 years is a long time but ...) As I've stated before I have been using a thermotex heating pad for several months now in conjunction with traction (4 hours a day), pentox and a variety of supplements (including arginine, l carnitine, pycogenol). my results have been positive (less wobble - if you will - with my hourglass/hinging). I'm continuing on this course but am anxiously watching for Brazil final report. Please post the Doctor's response when and if you get it. Thanks

Hi guys, im new here so a big hello to all my fellow peyronie peeps...

right, ive been doin abit of scannin through this site for roughly a month or so.

My story - i basically noticed a small lump within my penis shaft following an intense night with a luthawanian chick.. and after doin abit of research and noticing my penis was infact beginning to bend upwards substantially, i knew i had to do something.

initially i went to visit a GUM dr who examined my penis and said i had nothing to worry about and that it was lymphocelle? he said after a few weeks it will eventually subside. it never did and i felt as if the curvature was increasing..

i was intriuged by the claims that infra red could help and being a cheap option, i thought i would give it ago.

i purchased a heat lamp (150w) and i apply this to the area of nodule atleast once a day for 30 mins, no more than twice.

I have been doing this now for roughly 2 weeks and so far i can confirm that the nodule has most certainly decreased. i am starting to feel that i have got to that point were it is not reducing any further however it still is early days i guess...

as for curvature, very hard to say. basically, there has been no dramatic decrease in curvature as of yet.

i take no other supplements to aid my condition at present however i am thinkin about paying another visit to the GUM doc or asking for a referal to a urologist to discuss additional methods of treament.

from what i can gather pentox is must.

I'm considering increasing to wattage from 150 to 250 to see if this achieves greater results.

Hope this post helps out somewhat..

will keep u posted

i dont think it matters how hot it gets for you penis but what i have noticed is that its bad for your heart! =O when i get out its pumping very fast, and i am in pretty good shape. so does anyone know if im correct? should i just make it hot enough to wear it doesn't make my heart pump? dumb question i know but i think the hotness really helps my peyronies so its a complete bummer =/

despise:

I work out at the local Y and there is a hot tub available to the members. There is a caution note from the Y that says one should not use a hot tub where the temperature is above 105 degrees. Anything above that temperature could possibly cause heart problems and could cause skin problems, etc.

Above just my take from experience at the YMCA.

Old Man

Quote from: despise on December 21, 2009, 09:34:53 AM
i dont think it matters how hot it gets for you penis but what i have noticed is that its bad for your heart! =O when i get out its pumping very fast, and i am in pretty good shape. so does anyone know if im correct? should i just make it hot enough to wear it doesn't make my heart pump? dumb question i know but i think the hotness really helps my peyronies so its a complete bummer =/

Have you read the oft posted hyperthermia study on here? Have you read about tissue necrosis? Do you know what temperature at what time duration is dangerous?

As you made the comment above, I must assume not. Might be an idea to find out.

Quote from: skunkworks on December 21, 2009, 09:46:13 PM

Quote from: despise on December 21, 2009, 09:34:53 AM
i dont think it matters how hot it gets for you penis but what i have noticed is that its bad for your heart! =O when i get out its pumping very fast, and i am in pretty good shape. so does anyone know if im correct? should i just make it hot enough to wear it doesn't make my heart pump? dumb question i know but i think the hotness really helps my peyronies so its a complete bummer =/

Have you read the oft posted hyperthermia study on here? Have you read about tissue necrosis? Do you know what temperature at what time duration is dangerous?

As you made the comment above, I must assume not. Might be an idea to find out.

Yes I have read the study and I was trying my hardest to ovoid using to hot of a temperature but I guess I got lazy and thought it was a quick help to peyronies. I didn't believe in the study to much because I noticed improvement after using the high temperatures it tells you not to use and I also consulted with my urologist who said your skin would be burned first if it was a hazard to your penis. I guess im counseling out the baths as a treatment from now on because I don't see how a 105 bath would help at all but I'm going to try it anyways.

Quote from: UK on December 05, 2009, 11:09:45 AM

Quote from: rockwall on November 06, 2009, 04:08:18 PM
This is my first post on this forum although I have been lurking for years even back to the old BTC forum.

Some have already noted this Brazilian study that is currently underway.
I contacted the doctor conducting this study to determine if this infrared treatment was efficatious in his oppinion.

His Reply

"Thanks for your email.

I can assure you that this treatment really cure Peyronie's disease, but it is a long process (at least 2 or more years) of daily treatment. But infortunately infrared lamp alone does not work as well as the combined therapy. I have made some amendments to the protocol existing in the internet. In fact I have increased the goal to be reached in testosterone level to the highest normal level in order to have best results and the same with vit D levels.
I think that I you really wish to carry out this treatment you can send to me your lab exams, some photographs of your penis during erection ( from a lateral view and from above to measure the curvature in both perspectives) and also an echography of your penis to measure the size of plaques. You may also have to not fulfil the exclusion criteria already stated and you will have to consult an urologist to examine your prostate (rectal exam and prostate echography) . 

You can also write to Prof. Abraham Morgentaler from Harvard University (amorgent@yahoo.com) asking him if he will accept to participate in my trial because you are not the only suffer of Peyronie's disease from USA who sent to me emails seeking help.

I hope I could help you more

Sincerely

Carlos C. Cusmanich, MD"

Best to all,
Rockwall

I'm really surprised that this post has not attracted more debate.

It looks a legitimate trial http://www.controlled-trials.com/ISRCTN82950322/  isn't this what we are all looking for ???

I've mailed the Doctor a few days back enquiring when the results of the study will be out but not heard anything so far.

HELLO ANYBODY OUT THERE???

Either these posts are being missed on the forum, or members are choosing to ignore the importance of what has been posted here.
In my opinion this could be the biggest breakthrough we have had to date - more important than Pentox, Xiaflex, VED/Traction, Surgery.
The doctor says "cure"
Why I find this believable is the doctor is
1) a real doctor
2) it is a real trial
3) it is using a realistic treatment in hyperthermia, vitamin d and testosterone
4) there is no financial gain in these inexpensive treatments
5) it is not a quick fix, stating 2 years says to me there is sincerity in the statement
6) a US urologist has teamed up with this doctor and he seems legitimate

does anyone really not have any comment to make, or has Peyronie's blinded you so much that when something worth discussing comes up you ignore it?

I'm hoping this study is going to get published somtime soon, considering I would go to prison for 2 years to be back to normal, this really isn't a long time for a treatment that could work.

Quote from: UK on December 22, 2009, 02:13:39 PM
HELLO ANYBODY OUT THERE???

does anyone really not have any comment to make, or has Peyronie's blinded you so much that when something worth discussing comes up you ignore it?

I'm hoping this study is going to get published somtime soon, considering I would go to prison for 2 years to be back to normal, this really isn't a long time for a treatment that could work.

Calm down sunshine, we tend to wait till results are published and we have actually read them before we start setting off fireworks.

QuotePlease note that as of 06/02/2008 the anticipated end date of this trial was extended to 26/03/2010. The previous anticipated end date was 26/09/2008.

Still a little while longer to wait.

UK

I have chased down promising leads for years, to no avail.

This makes sense to many of us as a probable "fix" for SOME men, but probably not all men. But we have also ween things that make sense, and which had promising preliminary results, never pan out (ie ALC, Verapamil, etc)

Being a real doc, and seeming to care about outcomes does not make it more likely that a therapy will work, although I agree that it lessens the likelihood of a swindler simply lying to us (I have long suspected that Xiaflex is being oversold for profits, and will not pan out at all).

Tim

Today the Brazil doctor updated the protocol to include new information.

http://www.controlled-trials.com/ISRCTN82950322/

He did send me an e-mail a few weeks back stating the same, but we now have new info on Vitamin D dose and the heat source.

I have been following the Brazil protocol for 6 weeks as has another forum member for a bit longer.

My vitamin D levels were checked and very low. 18ngol/L. I started supplementation at 20000UI per day.
My Testosterone levels were checked at 695.11 ng/dl - normal so no intervention there.
150W lamp at approx 20-30cm each day for 30 minutes.

After treatment my flaccid penis is engorged and healthy looking, straight and scar is not palpable. Doctor quotes 2 years treatment which makes sense as Peyronies took that long to develop. It is back to normal after a few hours but there has been a "change", but can't say if its positive or negative at this point.

It seems as if the infrared laser for 16 weeks combined with T & D shows quicker improvement in which case this study should complete shortly.

I really think this guy is onto something.

Please keep us posted on your progress!
Fred

UK, what does this doctor's study consider "upper normal levels" of testosterone? 

Nemo

what does palpable. mean??

Palpable means you can feel it.

so what in fact is he actually doing other than taking Vit d etc - is there a protocol that we can follow

According to the way I am reading the Brazilian doctor's data, you do 30 minutes with the heat lamp combined with Vitamin D and testosterone injections.  I'm already taking vitamin D and getting testosterone injections, so I think I will add the heat lamp.  I also started the VED therapy 5 weeks ago and thanks to Old Man, is seems to be going well now.

Does anyone see a problem with combining these protocols?

GS

Hey UK, your mailbox is full...

Interesting study.

His modifications from a double blinded randomized study to a "pilot" study suggest that he was either unable to get enough patients or the first protocol was not working - I suspect the latter as he made modifications to his protocol.

He changed the following, (suggesting the former is unhelpful):

1) 30 patients will be treated with hyperthermia alone (30 minutes/day with infrared lamp of 150 W at a distance of approximately 20 cm of the plaque(s) and curvature) was changed to: 10 patients will be treated with hyperthermia alone during 30 minutes/day with infrared laser applied directly over the plaque and curvature for 16 weeks.

2) 30 patients will be treated with hyperthermia (as above) plus Vitamin D (4000 IU/day/oral) and one injection of Testosterone depot (Durateston®) every 2 weeks initially (patients with baseline levels of free testosterone under median normal level) was changed to: 10 patients will be treated with hyperthermia (as above) plus Vitamin D 30.000 UI/day/oral and an injection of testosterone depot (Durateston®) every 10 days initially.

So, it looks like a lower dose of vitamin D didn't cut it (no surprise there); that he found a better way to give hyperthermia; and that he found two weeks too long to wait between testosterone injections.

Tim

Hey Tim, I don't know hardly anything about vitamin d and peyronie's. Do you think it can be helpful and if so what type of vitamin d, at what dosage and for how long? Thanks

Quote from: Tim468 on May 11, 2010, 10:24:38 AM

His modifications from a double blinded randomized study to a "pilot" study suggest that he was either unable to get enough patients or the first protocol was not working - I suspect the latter as he made modifications to his protocol.

I disagree that the first protocol was not working based on the fact a forum member got an e-mail from the doctor stating the first protocol takes 2 or more years. I suspect the second protocol with the laser is an attempt to speed up the process based on his initial findings.

Tim -This is the email UK mentioned. As UK said isn't it possible that the first trial went well and now he has gone to the pilot trial as a matter of course? (I'm not real familiar with study types double blind randomised vs. pilot). Your thoughts?

"Thanks for your email.

I can assure you that this treatment really cure Peyronie's disease, but it is a long process (at least 2 or more years) of daily treatment. But infortunately infrared lamp alone does not work as well as the combined therapy. I have made some amendments to the protocol existing in the internet. In fact I have increased the goal to be reached in testosterone level to the highest normal level in order to have best results and the same with vit D levels.
I think that I you really wish to carry out this treatment you can send to me your lab exams, some photographs of your penis during erection ( from a lateral view and from above to measure the curvature in both perspectives) and also an echography of your penis to measure the size of plaques. You may also have to not fulfil the exclusion criteria already stated and you will have to consult an urologist to examine your prostate (rectal exam and prostate echography) . 

You can also write to Prof. Abraham Morgentaler from Harvard University (amorgent@yahoo.com) asking him if he will accept to participate in my trial because you are not the only suffer of Peyronie's disease from USA who sent to me emails seeking help.

I hope I could help you more

Sincerely

Carlos C. Cusmanich, MD"

Best to all,
Rockwall

Has any one attempted this yet?

i found this on the german amazon site: http://www.amazon.de/prorelax-39513-Intensiv-Massage-Rotlichtw%C3%A4rme/dp/B003RITIKU/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=drugstore&qid=1279044144&sr=8-10

its cheaper than the other devices posted in this thread but i don't know if it is worth the money.

As if I don't have enough to think about with Peyronies , I have a bad case of Sciatica since Saturday. Up til then it was just another ailment I had heard about but didn't really know how it affected your body. I do now !! Talk about constant pain - from the hip to the foot. Only one side of the body at a time - thankfully. A trip to my Y club this AM for a bout in the pool then a long , hot soak in the Whirlpool. It really took away the pain but it has returned later today. I will do the same routine tomorrow morning.
Which brings me to this Infrared Light . I would be interested to see how it , if it , does anything to help our Peyronie's Disease symptoms.
And - slightly off topic - would it help aleviate the pain of Sciatica as well ? Just in case anyone is not aware - the Sciatica nerve is in your hip and runs down the leg to your foot.

mike67:

Know what you mean about this pain! Been there and done that for years now. There seems to be no valid treatment for it. Have had over 20 epidurals for it with no relief. Have developed a bending/flexing routine that does the most good. Seems like the lumbar region of the lower back being out of sorts is the reason for most of this type of pain.

Pain tablets including Lortab 7.5 and above do nothing for it, so exercise seems to be the best treatment for it.

Old Man

On the alternative treatments page, a small study is discussed in which pretty good results were seen with heat therapy.

Does anyone have any experience with this? Any suggestions on how to apply the heat?

Some here HAVE reported benefits from heat.  It has been applied in several ways as I recall.  I think the most promising area is probably the infrared stuff being discussed on the infrared thread.  - George

I've been using heat the past week, but my symptoms just started not too long ago so I am unsure of it's effectiveness and the regular state of my progression is.  I do know that it helps dilate the blood vessels which increase the oxygen and nutrient flow to the tissue along with stretching the soft tissue.  I do notice that it does cause my flaccid as a whole to feel fuller and softer, but I haven't really noticed much on the plaque, maybe with time it will help.

The heat I am using is pantyhose that has rice in it.  I usually use it for sinus headaches, but it works well with being able to wrap around my unit.  lol obviously I am going to need to make a new one for my face though.  Using a hot wet towel may be better though, but I am not really sure on the physiological effects of dry and wet heat.

Quote from: luka-brasi on July 13, 2010, 02:10:07 PM
i found this on the german amazon site: http://www.amazon.de/prorelax-39513-Intensiv-Massage-Rotlichtw%C3%A4rme/dp/B003RITIKU/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=drugstore&qid=1279044144&sr=8-10

its cheaper than the other devices posted in this thread but i don't know if it is worth the money.

It says "red light", but does that mean infrared?

Fred

Quote from: Old Man on July 13, 2010, 10:10:03 PM
mike67:

Know what you mean about this pain! Been there and done that for years now. There seems to be no valid treatment for it. Have had over 20 epidurals for it with no relief. Have developed a bending/flexing routine that does the most good. Seems like the lumbar region of the lower back being out of sorts is the reason for most of this type of pain.

Pain tablets including Lortab 7.5 and above do nothing for it, so exercise seems to be the best treatment for it.

Old Man

Old Man,

You mentioned in a post several months ago that you had received an infrared device from the Fitzz Company that was giving your back pain some relief.  At the time you seemed rather hopeful.  I assume that this didn't turn out to be a permanent solution? 
Fred

Fred22:

Yes, it works great for lower back pain. How it works, have no clue. The device is a system of some form of natural rocks that are embedded in a package that is flexible and fits nicely around ones back, arm, chest or most any place on the body it would be needed.

There is no "light" as such, but the heat is generated inside the package somehow. I don't think that it would work on Peyronies Disease symptoms though as it would be difficult to form fit in the groin area. It could be laid across ones groin area if the penis was somehow held up above the legs so that it would come in contact with the stones area of the device.

Sorry that I have no definitive answer for you.

Regards, Old Man

Quote from: zariche on July 15, 2010, 12:53:36 PM
I've been using heat the past week, but my symptoms just started not too long ago so I am unsure of it's effectiveness and the regular state of my progression is.  I do know that it helps dilate the blood vessels which increase the oxygen and nutrient flow to the tissue along with stretching the soft tissue.  I do notice that it does cause my flaccid as a whole to feel fuller and softer, but I haven't really noticed much on the plaque, maybe with time it will help.

The heat I am using is pantyhose that has rice in it.  I usually use it for sinus headaches, but it works well with being able to wrap around my unit.  lol obviously I am going to need to make a new one for my face though.  Using a hot wet towel may be better though, but I am not really sure on the physiological effects of dry and wet heat.

Well, glad it's giving you some relief.  Chronic pain is the pits!  Maybe someone will develop a unit that will fit the penis.  Would be interesting to see if it worked for Peyronie's pain.  Fred

Fred22

I used heat for a shirt time after acquiring this fabulous disease. I think I'm going to try it again,after ved use to see if it benifits our cause. I t may benefit recovery in the exercise and healing of ved therapy.

It seems to me probably keeping a good supply of blood and dilation of the vessels could be a sound remedy to after work out.Maybe considering it a cooling down method to the end of a session.

Thank you for bringing heat back in to the equation.

Fubar

fubar:

Heat should be applied to the groin area prior to starting the VED exercise sessions. This allows the area blood vessels to dilate well before applying the vacuum. Heated wet towels is another very good way to do it. If you have an infrared heat lamp that can be used and will also do the trick. Just don't use the lamp/bulb or a heating pad if one is used too long so that you won't "burn" the area.

You can also do a very hot shower a hot tub or regular tub soak before the exercises and that will help more than any other item.
You will see better performance of the VED therapy if you do one of this first.

Old Man

Oldman

Thanks for the suggestions . I will try heat before pumping tonight !

Just some observations I've noticed from taking hot baths between 10-20 mnutes, I'm not sure what the temperature is, but it is very akin to what a hottub or spa feels like, not scalding but just hot enough for it to feel soothing:

Within about 2 minutes, my flaccid penis pretty much looks normal to me.  The indentations or hourglassing I have is pretty much not noticeable.  When I induce an erection, it seems much fatter and fuller than it usually does and best of all, without any pain.

I do understand that this is only temporary, since these benefits disappear after I'm out of the tub, but none the less it has to be a good indication right?

My theory is that the warm water temporarily softens the scar tissue enough for blood to pass through and stretch it normally.  If this is the case, would this not be a beneficial treatment to have erections in this state, since I can acheive an almost normal erection without deformity?  It would seem that this would be the safest and best way to stretch the scar tissue. 

let me know what you think guys.

Any news on the Brazilian hyperthermia study?
it should be finished by now...

http://www.controlled-trials.com/ISRCTN82950322

someone had contacted the doc there....

Luc

The study is completed, yet I haven't been able to find any further results. I (and several others here) have contacted Dr. Cusmanich to get more information. I hope others here will try to contact him - I think I have worn out my welcome.

I wish to ask if somebody has more news about this treatment.
I'm thinking to begin hot water bath at 40degree two or three times weekly.
Can it be useful? Have you any positive experience of this customized treatment or other similar?

What has become of this study??

http://www.controlled-trials.com/ISRCTN82950322/

The doctor in question today has answered to me.
He said that trial will finish in December.

I tried the hot baths idea a while ago.  It does seem to soothe the symptoms. It helps with pain tremendously and even seems to soften up tough areas of plaque or scarring, however I noticed all the benefits were only temporary and subsided on days that I didn't take baths.  As I understand though, the hyperthermia treatment takes place with a heat lamp instead of baths, so I can't comment on what the differences would be. 

another 6 months passed... any news?

Quote from: Luciano on November 20, 2011, 07:26:21 AM
another 6 months passed... any news?

The study ends in December.

OK, I just found a new study with a new hyperthermia device for Peyronies Disease.

Just a few remarks:
the study was made - verapamil injections vs the device.
VI had no results in curvature,
the device:
a reduction of like 20% . (there is a before/after photography of a 88 degrees penis going down to like 47 degrees, and a 14 degrees going down to 12 degrees)
but its a 2 times a week for 5 weeks treatment. (3 cycles)  No idea if you do it 5 times a week for 10 weeks in 5 cycles.

There are 2 studies in the paper, the first one only is for Peyronies Disease.
(the company is specialized in hyperthermia for cancer treatment)
here is the study.
http://www.oncothermia-journal.com/journal/2012/Journal%20vol.5.pdf

now you can look up the company on wikipedia, they seem serious. based in hungary and cyprus (strange) they supply hospitals world wide.
here is the wiki link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oncotherm
but content is short so I can post it here:

QuoteJump to: navigation, search

OncoTherm is a medical device company for oncothermia treatments.

The company was founded in 1988 by András Szász[1] in Hungary. In 2002 it received investment from a German company and was reorganized as a German-Hungarian company consisting of OncoTherm Hungary Ltd,[2] and OncoTherm GmbH.[3] The company's methodology is based on the view of its founder that the heat-dose sensitive characterization of tissue is at the core of the hyperthermia treatment.[4] Its main product is the EHY-2000, a hyperthermia device where thermo-electric effects of electrical fields are used. According to its website about 160 devices have been placed into operation, mostly in Hungary and Germany, and performed over 100,000 treatments.[5] The device is not approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.

I did a google search for the device, Androtherm they were using. no result.
The oncotherm company does exist though, didnt find them selling stuff, doing medical congresses for oncology.

Bottom line, If someone has time to do some research, find where and if the devices are for sale...would be very interesting.

Luc

Interesting, although I always had my doubts when it mentions Italian doctors.
We still never had the Hyperthermia result from the Brazil study.
I've always believed there was something very possible with Hyperthermia and myself did Infrared lamp for a few months. It appeared to help but was too much of a time investment and any benefit reversed soon after stopping.

If heat treatment is working for peyronies then think of peyronies plaque like candle wax, when it heats up it gets soft.

Therefore think of of peyronies disease as having candle wax in your penis... How can candle wax be removed from inside a penis?

Surely it can be related to in this way and surely a solution can be found ...

Maybe the plaque could be heated and then extracted from the penis somehow?

Andrew

Interesting approach. The question is if the plaque will soften enough to be simply extracted.

I had a TUNA procedure to shrink my enlarged prostate 3&1/2 years ago and it was successful.
The procedure is to heat up the prostate with low frequency radio waves and as the uro told me, the prostate shrinking like a hamburger when barbecued.
Interesting if can be applied for Peyronie's plaques also.

James

Perhaps IF the plaque could become soft enough through applying heat, then a syringe could be used to suck out the plaque, in a similar way to having Liposuction.   It's certainly an idea worth experimenting with if the plaque can become temporarily softened.

As I understand it, part of the problem is that scar tissue actually replaces healthy tunica tissue. Therefore if you remove the scar tissue you must replace it with something. The surgical procedure "incision and grafting" does this very thing.

This sounds like a great idea if they could find a way to grow tunica tissue in the lab and get it to attach and heal properly to existing tissues.

-Skjaldborg

I agree with Skjald on this.  He is correct.  Scar tissue is not like foreign object in the tissue that can just be excised or sucked out.  It IS the tissue.  To just liposuction it would be like solving osteoporosis by just removing all the person's bones.  Thus the value of hyperthermia would be its benefit in promoting healing in this tissue, not in somehow changing it to a liquid. But make no mistake, ANY degree of healing would result in softening.  One of the primary benefits of hyperthermia is an increase in blood flow and oxygenation of tissues.  There is actually what looks like it MIGHT be a very good device on the market for this, but it is significantly expensive.  http://www.chi-machine.com/hothouse.html (http://www.chi-machine.com/hothouse.html)  - George

IT would be good to get more and better clinical information on value of heat treatments. One study suggested 39 - 40 degrees C applied over a period is really helpful. This surprises me as it is just above body temperature. What about the effectiveness of higher temperatures? The Brazilian study appears to have faded.

As I understand it, part of the problem is that scar tissue actually replaces healthy tunica tissue. Therefore if you remove the scar tissue you must replace it with something.

We live in the SW US. My husband was diagnosed a few years ago with Peyronies. He first noticed a hollow place at the base. Then he commented that his penis seemed fractured inside. Next was a shortening. Next came a corkscrewing. He was distressed. I am a body worker and owned a red LED Deep Penetrating Light (Infrared and LED) to help with nerve pain on my clients. He tried the light on his penis on a whim and within two weeks of daily tx, the corkscrewing of his penis relaxed and went away. The hollow place never filled in and the length never returned. His penis is thicker. Perhaps the Deep Penetrating Light from LED Technologies can play a roll in reversing recent damage from Peyronies? I did a search of this site and didn't see any info on DPL. We ordered it from Amazon. It looks like an open book on a stand. It cost around $300 I believe.  He has Dupuytren's contracture of his hands. The light helped his hands flatten as well. NASA has done studies of LED light helping healing in space and chemo side effects. I'm wondering if a red inexpensive LED flashlight could help with Peyronies?

I have tried massage techniques on his penis and hands, I don't think they helped.

lagrasshopper

It is encouraging that the "corkscrew" of your husband went away.
We have a topic regarding infrared therapy, you may want to read what people have done and they results.
Alternative Treatments of Peyronie's Disease > HYPERTHERMIA - Infrared light & Heating therapy

My uro also proposed me this therapy, unfortunately the device is not available where I am living.

James

This subject actually HAS been discussed before on this forum, but, as I recall, nobody was willing to pony up the money for anything beyond a toy to give it a try.  All the time I have had a lingering suspicion that these things might indeed work.  The secret is deep tissue penetrating IR.  That can do wonders in terms of quelling inflammation.  So I am really, really delighted to here a report of a success using this approach.  Hopefully at some point more forum guys will be willing to give this a run and we will be able to get more feedback on it.  In the mean time, la, thanks for sharing this with us!  - George

I just thought of something to add about the Deep Penetrating Light. It is my understanding that looking at the light can damage the eye's retina over time and reduce vision. The company sells plastic eye covers if you use the light, say, on the face. When I use one in my work, I try to cover it with a blanket while it is on. 

I am really intrigued by this. The specific item mentioned by lagrasshopper is $350 on Amazon, which I think may be forever out of my reach, but there is a similar (smaller) device from the same company that is $160. Unfortunately many of the reviews claim the cheaper one is very poorly made and breaks easily. I could see myself eventually spending something under $200 to try this, though, so I'll be researching the whole subject more and looking into what is the smartest device to buy.

That therapy sounds intriging but i am wee confused and have a couple of questions.the  type of unit that was used , who makes it and is there a model number? i believe you usually get what you pay for and a $300 unit might be a waste of money.Also ,if your husband has seen improvements and has access  to the unit at your office, why would you buy another one?

lagrasshopper

I will second richard wheeler.
Can you give us the model number you are using as this device had helped your husband?
I suppose some forum members will be ready to buy one (including me) if we will know the model number you are using.

James

I assume it is this one as there is a review by lagrasshopper on the same page: http://www.amazon.com/DPL-Deep-Penetrating-Light-Therapy/dp/B000RIJ2ZY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344648888&sr=8-1&keywords=Deep+Penetrating+Light (http://www.amazon.com/DPL-Deep-Penetrating-Light-Therapy/dp/B000RIJ2ZY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344648888&sr=8-1&keywords=Deep+Penetrating+Light)
There is no discernible model number, it is just called a Deep Penetrating Light device, and the one on that page is sold by a seller called Maxxima. I believe the manufacturer is LED Technologies like lagrasshopper noted. It is $349 with free shipping within the US. I doubt anyone is going to impulsively buy it, but if you are interested I would not buy the one on Amazon without thoroughly checking other options and prices as Maxxima is probably a middle-man company marking up the product for a profit. Amazon is usually the cheapest source on a lot of items, but it absolutely isn't always. The device might be cheaper somewhere else.

For a cheaper device, after reading a little earlier this evening I found this site to be the most promising: http://www.theledman.net/order.html (http://www.theledman.net/order.html) (it is significantly marked up on Amazon; a seller has it for $199 while it is about $130 +$10 shipping at the actual LED Man web site) I'm going to see if that's something I might be able to afford to buy soon.

EDIT: I should add that the LED Man device is cheaper in price, but doesn't seem to be cheaper in quality, and it has a much denser array of LED lights. I'm still reading about the technology behind all this and people's experiences with the devices, but from what I've read so far a lot of folks really do vouch for its efficacy. I would be surprised if using one of these doesn't help in some way, though how much help it is remains to be seen, and would probably vary on an individual basis. But it sounds promising.

After having some scary worsening of my condition I am back in a stable (and improved) phase through continued Chinese herbal therapy (my base line treatment that has helped me through thick and thin), and now finally being in a position where I can commit to a VED protocol every day, I would love to be able to add this light therapy into my regimen (not to mention there are other areas of my body that could use the help if it works). Not sure when exactly I'll be able to afford one; might possibly be within the next few weeks.

Swolf is right. I don't think there is a model number. LED Technologies had a 50% discount if you are a dealer, at least that was true 2-3 years ago when I checked into it.

Light is light so I suppose you could buy an infrared light and a LED light inexpensively and separately. The Deep Penetrating Light device is hands free and switches off automatically which prevents tissue burns. Both essential features for my business.

I have more than one unit for sanitation reasons and convenience. It is a business expense for me.

I've used the light on probably less than 200 individual clients. My husband is the only one that I've used it for peyronies. It seems to help with injuries, foot neuropathy, soreness. I loaned it to one client for the arthritis in her hands and she didn't think it helped her. One client had nerve pain in his face and he felt the light made it worse that evening even tho it felt good when it was on. That was the only ill effect so far.

On the cost saving topic, physical therapists and massage therapists may have this light in their offices. I'm wondering if it would be possible to rent it from them or come for private sessions for a test run a few times. I'm wondering if the light was prescribed by a doctor, if it would be covered by insurance? Some spas and gyms have infrared saunas.

Anyway, I hope some people are helped by my husbands experience. I've been comforted by a this website.

I think it is appropriate to note that we ARE talking about heat here.  The challenge would be to apply enough to be therapeutic, but not enough to result in a roasted weenie.  I am not sure how easy it would be to achieve this.  There might be some real risks in this regard with using a cheaper device aside from the risk of it being ineffective.  - George

Not surprisingly it is hard to find good information online amidst the mountains of junk and companies just trying to make quick $$$, but I think I am slowly finding some good things to read. Google Scholar turns up some interesting studies. I will try to post something once I can get my head around it all.

Polarized light seems to be another separate therapy, with Bioptron being the name most attached to that. Their devices are on Amazon but are a hefty $515 at the cheapest. Actually wait... here one is for $310: http://drwhiteschoice.com/drwhite_products_bioptron.html (http://drwhiteschoice.com/drwhite_products_bioptron.html). That page claims "there are no thermal (heat) hazards with the BIOPTRON Light Therapy System," as opposed to Infra-red, which would have that hazard. The light therapy also does not contain any of the UV spectrum, so problems associated with that shouldn't exist.

There are multiple studies on polarized light therapy, one being this: http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/bjps/article/S0007-1226%2802%2993860-9/abstract (http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/bjps/article/S0007-1226%2802%2993860-9/abstract):

QuoteSUMMARY
This article reports a clinical study investigating the role of polarised-light therapy in the conservative treatment of deep dermal burn wounds. In 22 out of 67 patients with deep dermal burn wounds, clinical evaluation revealed only a very limited potential for spontaneous healing, and, despite the fact that the majority of the surgeons (four out of six) would have recommended surgery, these patients were treated conservatively with polarised-light therapy (400–2000 nm, 40 mW cm−2, 2.4 J cm−2) until complete closure. Evaluation by a panel of four surgeons, all experts in burn surgery, revealed that conservative treatment of these deep dermal wounds with polarised-light irradiation resulted in a significantly shorter healing time, with almost no hypertrophic scarring, and optimal aesthetic and functional results at long-term follow-up. No extension of the hospital stay was required. Polarised-light therapy may be a valuable way of avoiding surgery in patients with deep dermal burns.

Well, now we know that when we have burned ourselves with our $300 LED light, we can always fix the damage with a $500 polarized light.  Is this information overload or what?

Seriously though, I do think these light therapy systems have potential.  Please continue to let us know anything you find out on the subject.

- George

I wouldn't quite call it information overload, but there are a few distinct types of light used. Polarized light therapy has been supposedly used in Europe for 20 years or so (do any European members have experience with it in some way?). Personally, I don't see ever being able to afford one of the more expensive devices, so I'm specifically interested in figuring out a safe way to try the LED device from LED Man.

First of all, the results Ladygrasshopper reported is quite astonishing considering it has only been two weeks.  Most noticable improvements take months if not years.

I assume her husband is continuing on with the treatment to see if he can achieve other impovements.

It sounds like the LED lighting therapy is more about heat.  Why not use a heating pad or similar?
Is there something else about the LED light that is theraputic?

My accupuncturist is now using laser light therapy with his traditional practice. He says that there are light receptors beneath the surface of the skin and the laser light stimulates them to encourage chi flow and therefore encourages healing.

I am just throwing this out for discussion as the laser may help break up scar tissue and minerization.  Not to mention move some chi.

Quote from: goodluck on August 13, 2012, 05:02:19 PM
It sounds like the LED lighting therapy is more about heat.  Why not use a heating pad or similar?
Is there something else about the LED light that is theraputic?

Yes, there is something about how the actual light stimulates cells to regenerate, in addition to the heat. This is something I was reading about to try to post a summary, but I have been busy and tonight I have quite a headache, but I'll try to soon.

A huge issue here is wavelength.  Not all IR is equal.  Certain IR wavelengths penetrate deeper than others, some are reputed to be deeply penetrating.  And all of this has an effect on everything from circulation to inflammation.  Here is a link to a vendor site that has some interesting discussion about IR therapy:  http://www.promolife.com/cart/far-infrared-therapy (http://www.promolife.com/cart/far-infrared-therapy)  I have no personal interest or ties to this company and do not know them or have any personal experience with them or their products.  But I have to say, their stuff looks very interesting.  And here are a few more ->  http://www.energywellnessproducts.com/hothouse.htm (http://www.energywellnessproducts.com/hothouse.htm)  http://www.chimachine4u.com/fir.html (http://www.chimachine4u.com/fir.html)  So there is a LOT of promotion going on here and some very high prices for these products.  The question is do they work?  At this point there is no definitive answer to that question.  But they certainly sound interesting. - George

It would be hard to top this article for concentration of information: http://heelspurs.com/led.html (http://heelspurs.com/led.html)

The author seems convinced LED light therapy with the right frequency (and pulsing light being more effective) can help heal recent injuries and that it works very well for pain management, but not convinced that it can heal scars and chronic inflammation. Here are a few quotes, the entire page is too vast to even try to paraphrase:

QuoteFor most soft-tissue injuries beneath the skin, the pain goes from an 8 to a 2 (on a scale of 10) after an hour or two of treatment with good home-use LED devices.  For exposed injuries like burns and retina injuries, only 1 to 10 minutes of LED light is used, depending on the device.   Applying LED light for too long cancels the benefits, but the time of application is hard to determine. Too little light and there is little benefit, and too much light and there is no benefit.  For injuries where the pain can be felt, I apply it only long enough to notice the maximum pain relief and no longer.  The pain relief can be amazing in burns, cuts, and other wounds even if wound healing is not faster.

QuoteCompanies have made various strange claims that I do not believe: yellow for wrinkles, green for cancer, and blue for wrinkles.

Quote
Skin: Wrinkles, Acne, Scars, and Spots

I have historically been against the idea that LEDs might help skin for anyhting other than recent wounds. There appears to be only one good article that disagrees with me in the case of sun-damaged skin (see this (http://www.consol.eu/downloads/collagen/RED%20light%20research.pdf)). But for now, I will retain my old, skeptical comments about LEDs and skin, as can see in the rest of this section.

Simple LED devices for use at home do not work on wrinkles, aging, or scars. Wrinkles are old, fixated collagen, like scars.  LEDs repair recent injuries in cells that need more energy. This is the only way they work. There is no reason to believe this will reduce existing scars or wrinkles. Pictures of wrinkles before and after are not comparable because the angle of the lighting and the amount of smiling drastically changes things.  I found only one journal article (see below) that indicated simple red and infrared light energy can help.

In reference to a "light therapy bed" someone made using halogen lights, which you can read about in detail at http://heelspurs.com/led.html#heat (http://heelspurs.com/led.html#heat):

Quote2010 update: He emailed: "About 20 minutes on my back then 20 face down.... Kind of makes me really relaxed and sleepy too . . . similar to eating turkey."
2011 update: He reports: "It heals scars and keloids - not immediately, but gradually. Also moles disappear over time, even ones I've had from birth." 

There are a list of PubMed sources cited at the bottom of the page. I'm looking into building my own handheld device (there is info on that too! I can't remember if he mentions this figure but it's stuck in my head from somewhere: it might cost very roughly around $40-50 to build one. Depends on how many bulbs you want). Really this is about the best article I've seen on the subject, one that is written from reason and experience rather than trying to push a product or make absurd claims. My hope is still that it will have some benefit in the way of Peyronie's, but I'm holding my expectations in check. If it loosens things up in any way I'll be happy with it, though.

swolf

Thanks for posting the link.
It is indeed a very comprehensive article.
I am on my way back from holiday, when I will arrive home I will get deep into it.
The cost can't be more than $40, 50 as you mentioned (I am working in electronics, this staff is cheep)

James

I'm interested now for the pain management more than anything. I'm still trying to getting used to using a VED but my body does not like it very much. I did some damage to myself with it at first, but even now no matter how gently I use it I end up with an increase in pain. A burning kind of pain that I've had in the past. It's pretty frustrating because it's keeping me from being able to full commit to the VED. If one of these light thingamajigs can work alongside that to help make it work more smoothly, that would be great.

swolf
I read on our forum that the IR therapy helped one of our board members with low back pain.  Maybe you can find the topic/post.
Maybe I have asked already and you give answer:
Do you use Pentox? It helps with pain, for most of the forum members

James

I've tried to take Pentox several times and it worked extremely well for my Peyronie's symptoms but I am unable to take it because of really unpleasant mental effects. That only adds to the frustration of not being entirely sure if I can continue with the VED: both of the best treatment options may be unavailable to me. If that's the case I'm not sure what I would do, hence I am open to any and all alternative treatments (besides just being someone that is open to those anyway). Really the main focus of my health right now is Lyme disease, which is what precipitated the onset of Peyronie's in the first place and I think continues to fuel it. TCM (Traditional Chinese Medicine) herbs keep the muscle pain and soreness of that in check, and give me a ton of energy, but this past week because of some bad scheduling I realized I may not have those for several weeks, and I am already sore, though luckily not badly. (i've said this elsewhere on the forum and I'll repeat it: TCM herbs are extremely powerful. I urge anyone needing another treatment option to try them immediately.) I think the Lyme in my system is the main stumbling block for my recovery right now. Now that I think about it, Pentox being an immune system suppressant, that may not be good for me to take as it might let the Lyme spirochetes flourish. Anyway, the point is unfortunately no, I can't take Pentox.

swolf

Sorry you can't take Pentox and and can't use VED. You may be right regarding Pentox as being an (mild) immune system suppressant, myself stopping Pentox for a while if I have flue or some other infection.

Regarding TCM, I am a believer also do to results I had from using them:
1. Suffering from migraine all my life (sometimes every week) until some three years ago it was completely eliminated (two or three times a year now) by drinking a tea from Tiens.
2. Dissolving the many stones I had in both kidneys by taking two different herb capsules (also from Tiens) for some four months, completely clean kidneys now. This treatment is not mentioned by Tiens, but a local expert told me it will work and it really works.

Wish you success with the Lyme treatment.
James

Just a thought.......I don't know if this would be effective to balance the immune lowering effects of Pentox....Why not try mushrooms.  Reishi or shitaki mushrooms are excellent for immune system building. They have been used in Asia for centuries. You can buy tablets or see an herbalist and get a wild harvested tincture.

Check out fungi perfecti.  They have an excellent reputation for making high quality mushroom products.  The owner Paul Stamets was a consultant to New Chapter and he developed some of their mushroom lines.  What I heard was He severed his relationship when he learned they started to cut corners and were not totally following his practices.  I hear nothing but positive things about his integrity and his commitiment to making the best mushroom products.   I have been using his My Community Host Defense product.  You can get it on iherb and Swanson for a decent discount.

I am not trying to sell anything just a concept that may balance out a side effect.  I am happy to be corrected if my theory is flawed.

I have close to a hundred 850nm (infrared) LED bulbs on order and will be ordering some at 660nm (red) momentarily, along with some other random parts. It will be a while before I get all the parts and can (attempt to) assemble this thing, but hopefully I'll be able to post about my frankenstein prototype soon.

Mission accomplished! It turned out exactly as I was hoping. I wasn't able to take pictures throughout the process but I can take a picture of the finished piece and post what I did shortly. It is a circuit board with 56 infrared LEDs and 49 red (so several inches by several inches square), attached with two about three foot long insulated wires to a 12 volt power supply box. I've tried it a few times now and can't report much, but it's only been a day or two. I've been using it for about 10 minutes at a time: laying back in bed, placing up against my skin and holding a pillow or heavy cloth over it (LED light may or may not be dangerous for your eyes. I'd rather just not take any chances by looking at it too long). Within 2-3 minutes it warms up and for the rest of the time there is heat as well as light. I was having intermittent pain tonight and after 10 minutes with the light the pain is all gone. My penis is in a much looser state. I'll be using it once in the morning and once at night from now on and will see how it helps.

If anyone is interested in this let me know and I will get directions up, if not I will get them up when I can. I spent less than $40, I believe. The most expensive part was the power supply box which cost $20 shipping including off ebay. The only tools you need are a soldering iron and wire snips.

Swolf

Encouraging results, also with the pain and also with the price.
Keep us updated how is affecting the plaques.

James

We made at home a sauna device of near infrared with the instructions in drwilson.com. It was for detoxification purposes but he states in his page this light therapy has many benefits regarding inflammation and wound healing. http://drlwilson.com/SAUNAS/SAUNA%20PLANS.htm

I went to the uro just two days ago and he played with my dong like it was rubbery, the bastard. He noticed he was making me suffer because I was squirming and moaning in the stretcher and told me I have the corpus cavernosus inflammed and that he suspects I have Peyrone´s or developing it (I have not bending that I know of). Since this I have had pretty intense pain. I have had this before from unknown causes but this time the manipulations of this doc were the obvious trigger.

Yesterday the pain in my penis was unbearable and I tried 15 minutes of direct exposure to the light bulbs and force me to have a pathetic erection of 50 -40% while receiving the heat. I didnt noticed a major improvement. Today the pain, after a night of insomnia because of the suffering, was less intense. I did another 15 minutes of exposure with getting a brief erection with thoughts only. The pain its very lessened now, COMPARED WITH HOW IT WAS OF COURSE.

I am just going to do another session now. Penis pain its one of the worst types of pain because has a profound psychological effect of helplesnesss and anxiety, at least for me. It means something bad its going on there. In Peyrone´s it relates to the second stage in which the penis is inflammed, later on in stage 3 the fibrous tissue takes place where the collagen scars were placed and becomes hard leading to dephormities . I wont let that happen. The scar tissues that I notice at the middle of my penis will controlled with high doses of Neprinol, Pentox or other thing. But I will need to get those as soon as I can... not easy in my situation  :(

Swolf,

Ditto what James said.  Maybe after trying the light therapy for a while you can segway into a gentle VED program.  It seems like a natural order.  1st do light therapy and follow up with VED after you have some good blood flow for a while.

Keep us informed.

Good Luck

Hopefully I can, but I am hesitant to pick up the VED again because it has caused me nothing but further drastic damage. I'm pretty sure I can objectively say I was using it gently and correctly and it still did harm, so I don't know. It is nice to have a tool that only seems to have benefits though (how big of a benefit I don't know yet), so I will be continuing with the light therapy for a while.

Swolf

If:

QuoteI'm pretty sure I can objectively say I was using it gently and correctly and it still did harm, so I don't know.

Try to find other way (You find already :))) and don't use VED.

James

Swolf

You have finished your LED device at October 5. Have some news regarding usage & benefits?
I was thinking to make this project also not just for the penis but also for low back pain.
Unfortunately my time schedule is so tight that I didn't get there yet.

James

I've been busy with a new job and completely forgot to post the directions for making one of these. As for results, I haven't been using the device regularly. It does seem to work well for pain but the level of damage I have now (most of which has been caused by the VED which caused DISASTROUS results) does not seem like something it's going to affect much. I should use it more because it definitely can't hurt, but I think it works best with fresh injuries. I cut my finger badly and used the LED device on that and I believe healed a lot quicker than I normally would have. If you have back pain I think it would probably work very well for you, but you would probably want to build a biggest device than mine, basically big enough to cover the area you want to treat.

Like George I think wrote earlier, the heat from the device is NOT particularly beneficial. Maybe some degree of heat is but at first I was placing the device right up against my skin and the heat would eventually cause my scar damage/whatever to contract tightly (and most of my damage restricts girth, so basically I would get very tight and narrow as my penis "seized up"). The heat is slow to build up, though. I hold the device 4-6 inches away now (maybe a little more, just guessing from memory) and that fixes that problem. If anything feels too hot I just increase the distance.

Swolf

Thanks for the answer.

James

Has anyone had significant improvements with this? are the results cumulative? I notice that it literally makes the plaue area feel really good. It could be placebo but it literally feels as if the heat ials destroying the tissue gradually. thoughts?

TooYoungForThis

The subject was discussed on the forum:
HYPERTHERMIA - Infrared light and Heating therapy - Peyronies Society Forums (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,915.0.html)
This is the reason you are not getting answers ;)

James

Hey everyone, This is my first time posting here, but i have had success using a method that i think would be beneficial to others in a situation similar to mine. To start with, i have no signs of ED and have not had pain since the initial injury, but heres a little about my story:

I have a thin and tall build, and I believe my penis reflects that. I am 6-3 and about 180 pounds, and my penis has always been long, but like my build has lacked girth. I am very young to be diagnosed with peyronies, at age 20, and i am a avid athlete and workout a lot. Therefore i think i have naturally good circulation. However, due to the length of my penis and relatively thin girth i believe i was very prone to an injury at some point, and that injury happened this summer when my girlfriend was on top during sex. Basically there was a miscommunication and my penis broke and made the pop noise and a few months later started to bend towards the left around midway. The bend was never very serious, but i saw a urologist anyway, and he said that i had early signs of peyronies, however, there was no plaque yet, so he put me on pentox, arginine, carnatine, and told me to use an extender to straighten my penis. 

To start with, I followed the supplement and pentox regimen exactly, despite the negative side effects from the drugs. I actually found the pentox and supplements reduced my recovery time which is awesome. Anyway, after using the extender for about a month daily, I noticed that it was actually having an inverse effect on me. The extender was actually causing me to develop an hourglass shape, an caused me to start having a hard flaccid, and i stopped right away. I figured that in order to cure scar tissue blood is needed in the area, so i stopped using the extender and my hard flaccid went away. I also started taking Ginko, Ginseng, and Cowhage to try to increase blood flow to the penis. And thats when i started seeing increased results and a decrease in curvature.

Basically, what I do is every time i take a shower i wrap my penis in a washcloth, and let very hot water run over the wash cloth to provide even heating over the entire area. I then proceed to become erect (I have always had a very easy time getting erect by just using my mind). I try to do this about 20 minutes after i take my pill regimin. Anyway, i warm the tissue and become erect and keep it under the warm washcloth for about 20 minutes. After the shower i notice the curve is almost completely gone, and as the tissues cool it becomes a little more pronounced. Over a period of time this has decreased the curvature when the tissues are not warm, and has actually increased the girth of my penis.

I am obviously in a unique situation because i do have peyronies, however i don't have any ED that typically goes along with it. I figured the warming of the tissue (which dilates blood vessels) and the increase to the blood increases the absorption of the pentox, and thus makes the scar tissue more malleable and thus reduces it over time. I just wanted to share this with everyone else and was wondering if anyone else had success doing a similar treatment plan?

Joseph, This sounds to me like a hyperthermia technique.  Hyperthermia has been much discussed around here and many have found it to be beneficial.  But you may have happened upon a better way to execute it.  Thanks so much for sharing this, along with the supplement regimin.  It is all very interesting.  - George

George,

It just makes a lot of sense to me because it seems like a lot like weightlifting to me. When lifting, your muscles are torn, and fill with blood, and they grow due to the nutrients carried in the blood. So isn't the single most important thing to fix this disease bloodflow? On top of that after soaking the area with warm water, and then attaining an erection it seems that the dilation of the tissue allows more oxygen and nutrients to break down the scar tissue.

The part that concerns me is that using the stretcher led to hourglass. I fear that might have happened to me - and I was quite diligent with that thing, per Mulhall's instructions.

I would guess the VED therapy (which Mulhalls discourages) would actually be much less likely to create hourglass because it isn't stretching quite like that.

As for heat, apparently people are having good luck with infrared, too, which penetrates deeper than surface heat.

Sam, I have neither used VED or a stretcher device, but I agree with you that use of the stretcher devices is risky.  The VED, properly used, is a much more controlled stretching in every way and much less prone to setting off an inflammatory response.  - George

There is actually a study on hyperthermia and Peyronie's, showing it to beneficial. It has actually been posted on this forum before, but I think it is long buried now.

Role of hyperthermia in the treatment of ... [Int J Hyperthermia. 2005] - PubMed - NCBI (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16019862)

QuoteHyperthermia significantly reduced plaque size and penile curvature and led to an increase in mean scores of erectile function (EF) domain, while verapamil had no such effects. Haemodynamic parameters were not significantly modified in either group. Hyperthermia caused significantly fewer side effects than verapamil infiltrations and was significantly more effective in preventing disease progression. There were no significant differences between the two groups in terms of pain reduction during erection.

I am possibly going to to merge this topic with the Hyperthermia topic.

I have to disagree that that traction is more risky or less controlled than the VED.  I own both and have used both.  If I had to vote on the most risky it would be the VED.  It consider neither risky if the user educated themselves and proceeds with caution.  I also dismiss rare individual reports of someone that progresses with Peyronies Disease after starting use of one of these devices.  Peyronies Disease is a progressive disease.  No treatment is 100 percent effective and traction and the VED are no exception so we would expect some men to have some progression after beginning with these devices just as we see after starting every other treatment.  That does not mean the treatment caused the progression.  In the Levine study, traction was found (to their surprise) to be effective in treating hourglass deformity.

A spring traction device allows for very specific tension that actually puts less stress on your penis over a much longer period so I deem it even safer than pumping with a VED. You have the ability to fairly accurately reduce tension and traction times.  There is also not the danger of drawing raw blood out of capillaries and into the tissue that many (including me) have at some times experienced with the VED.  Blood leaked into tissue is a known risk factor for formation of adhesions and scar tissue.

Hawk

On the issue of VED v traction, I defer to Hawk's judgment.  He knows far more about both than I ever will.  So listen to him, not to me.  - George

Quote from: Hawk on February 26, 2013, 10:51:06 PM
I also dismiss rare individual reports of someone that progresses with Peyronies Disease after starting use of one of these devices.  Peyronies Disease is a progressive disease.  No treatment is 100 percent effective and traction and the VED are no exception so we would expect some men to have some progression after beginning with these devices just as we see after starting every other treatment.  That does not mean the treatment caused the progression.

I feel like this is a dangerous thing to say when there are many people out there reading it. After the VED caused further damage and I found it to not work for me, I continued trying because of how many times I had read that all it can do is help. If I had heard more reports beforehand of it not working for some people, that would have given me some needed perspective. I didn't go that much further in attempting to use it and I'm not blaming the lack of breadth of reports for anything that happened to me, but the reality of it is that simple conservative attempts at using the VED caused me further damage. It is a progressive condition and I probably would have kept progressing anyway, but that has little to do with drastic damage caused as a direct result of doing something. I'm not sure why you would dismiss reports like this.

I don't dismiss your opinion or your report.  I understand that you sincerely think the VED caused you damage.  I accept that fact that maybe it did, but I also have to allow for the fact that maybe it did not.  Mixed in with all of that I would have to allow that if it did cause the progression, maybe you were far more aggressive with it than was wise.  Again, maybe you were conservative with it and in your case it caused damage.

What we do know is that if that is true then it is an almost unprecedented exception to the the reported outcome as reported for years by hundreds of users.  I would not be shocked to know it was true because I know of no treatment that is universally safe.  For instance Pentox can cause a worsening of symptoms in some men.  My point is that from one report that someone got worse after using the VED, or even after a report that 5% of all men that use it getting worse (which is NOT the reported fact), how could we conclude:
1. They used it properly
2. The progression was caused by the VED when it is more likely the VED only failed to stop a progressive disease.

Clearly I have no vested interest.  I don't sell VED's.  I don't even prefer them to traction.  I just know that:
1. They are supported by many urologists
2. They have a higher reported satisfaction rate than any single treatment with the possible exception of Pentox

Surely that is clear and understandable.  Looking at these facts, it is the only position a person could responsibly take.

I overpumped the first time I tried it (to whatever extent. I don't think I was that aggressive at all), with bad results, but I was also extremely careful when trying it again many months later, and damaged myself further at that time too. I would actually like to try it again but I'm at a point where I really don't want to damage myself any more (who isn't always at that point, I know, :) ). There are a few others I've heard of who said something like this; an individual in particular I remember on the forum at some point, and then funnyfarm I think recently. I completely understand that it works for the vast majority of men and that is a very good thing, I just think it's important that the view is available that it's possible that despite your best efforts it might not work, and maybe even could harm you, so don't force a continuation if you're getting signs of that.

Quote from: swolf on March 20, 2013, 10:10:15 AM
I just think it's important that the view is available that it's possible that despite your best efforts it might not work, and maybe even could harm you, so don't force a continuation if you're getting signs of that.

SWolf, I think if you will recall, you will remember that I am the one that sent you a PM encouraging you to start a specific topic to report your experience so that information was available to others.  I certainly have not tried restrict that opinion, but I have to try my best to see that all the facts are laid out as they fall.

swolf yes two very light pumping sessions both left me swollen and in pain for days.  I am sure there was no permanent damage but it was very clear VED was not going to work for me.

I think we all developed Peyronies Disease for different reasons, so we each have to discover our unique path to health.  For better or worse, there is no standard universal solution.  We need to be flexible, patient, and listen to our bodies.

When I first read the suggestion that IR light from leds might offer some pain relief, my first reaction was 'ah yes, but what wavelength ?', so thanks Swolf, for the link to the heelspurs pages.
Information overload hardly does it justice ! It's going to take me several days to digest.

Is there any more recent experience that forum members have, given the passage of time since the last post ?

As a newly diagnosed 'peyronies crony ', with previously acquired Duyputrens contraction and signed off as cured of prostate cancer (brachytherapy in 2008), I seem to have a genetic interest in collecting examples of fibrosis. Only got to get Ledderhose's disease and I've got the full set !

Greybeard

UPDATE

Having had another talk with my GP, he has referred me to an Andrology clinic, so I'm now waiting for an appointment.
In the meantime, I've ordered 50 IR leds at 850nm and 50 red leds at 630nm, along the lines of the device described in the heelspurs link.
Total cost less than $5, so far. I'm planning to pot them in silicone rubber to make a flexible mat, but the details yet to be worked out. More anon.

As I have dupuytrens in my little finger on my left hand, as well as some thickening of the tendons in the right palm, I'll experiment on those before getting into more sensitive areas ! Quite a few variables - distance from the skin for a given power, length of time of each exposure, and frequency of treatments. If anyone has come across any relevant data/ideas on this, please share.

Grey

Quote from: lagrasshopper on August 08, 2012, 11:42:12 AM
We live in the SW US. My husband was diagnosed a few years ago with Peyronies. He first noticed a hollow place at the base. Then he commented that his penis seemed fractured inside. Next was a shortening. Next came a corkscrewing. He was distressed. I am a body worker and owned a red LED Deep Penetrating Light (Infrared and LED) to help with nerve pain on my clients. He tried the light on his penis on a whim and within two weeks of daily tx, the corkscrewing of his penis relaxed and went away. The hollow place never filled in and the length never returned. His penis is thicker. Perhaps the Deep Penetrating Light from LED Technologies can play a roll in reversing recent damage from Peyronies? I did a search of this site and didn't see any info on DPL. We ordered it from Amazon. It looks like an open book on a stand. It cost around $300 I believe.  He has Dupuytren's contracture of his hands. The light helped his hands flatten as well. NASA has done studies of LED light helping healing in space and chemo side effects. I'm wondering if a red inexpensive LED flashlight (http://www.robustbuy.com/led-lighting-gadgets-led-flashlights-c-505_1027_730.html) could help with Peyronies?

I have tried massage techniques on his penis and hands, I don't think they helped.

Why you thought that in the first place. I know this does not help at all..

J. Rounds

It helps with pain for sure as it is used by many doctors and gym instructors to attenuate pain.
We don't have too many Peyronies results because we have limited number of people that tried out this therapy.
This tread is 6 pages long but during the time I read all the posts.

James

Heat kills sperm production.
The Effect of Heat on Sperm Production | Men's Health (http://www.menshealth.com/health/effect-heat-sperm-production)

Is there anything that ensures that no EMW reaches the balls? UV and higher energy rays can easily penetrate thin sheets that you might use to cover them.

Which is why your testicles are located in your scrotum. To keep your sperm at a temperature they can survive. Even normal body temperature of 98.6 is enough to kill sperm.

I've always been a big fan of hyperthermia, in the form of a microwaveable rice pad/bag.

When I was living in Tokyo for the first time, I made one by simply pouring rice into a sock, and knotting the sock by the end.. Rice never actually spilled out and it lasted me over a year before I decided to throw it out. I've always seen improvements after using this method. Since starting Tranilast I've started using a heat pad again, one i bought that has rice in it. Every night I've been putting it on my penis for the last week, and already it seems to be helping along with manual stretching. My penis just looks fuller and straighter, and hinging is better than it ever has been, for which I am very thankful for.

If anyone is interested in making one, all it takes is a sock and rice. Then microwave it for 1.5 to 2 minutes and that's it. It's the easiest way to try out basic heat therapy besides a hot shower.

@ NeoV

How long did you apply the heat pad on your penis for (per session)?

Forester,

At least 20 minutes. It's hard to tell since I tend to fall asleep with it on at times. You can prevent it from losing heat quite well by putting any kind of blanket over it.

@ NeoV

Thanks

i have been using a heat lamp recently for 2 days only around 30 mins, i can feel the scar tissue tingle and my dick even sits differently while im applying the heat, the tissue is expanding no doubt, my plan is to slowly add some stretches while applying heat, don't want to rush it and feel any more tearing  :(

Moderator: Quote from previous post removed. We discourage full quotes of a previous post as it is obvious your are replying to it.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the therapy.. I have never used it I will now apply it very soon.. Thanks again

Moderator: Quote from previous post removed. We discourage full quotes of a previous post as it is obvious your are replying to it.

Good luck mate, im currently trying to make a shield to ensure i don't roast my polish sausage, i'm thinking maybe 3-4 inches of lead wrapped in something, what metals are good at shielding UV rays? i really have limited knowledge on this one

i sleep on an amythst infared biomat everynight. increadible healing tool I hope it helps!

@Elro, or anyone trying variations of the hyperthermia technique out, please keep us updated with your developments frequently.

Also, please make sure that you don't fry your eggs.. the testicles like to stay at lower temperatures, and heat is like an instant sperm count killer.

great, thank you for those useful information..  ;)

Recently I took a heating pad apart so I can easily wrap it around my penis for longer term hyperthermia. It works well but it's clumsy. At some point I'm going to redesign it so it will fit like a glove over the penis.

Heating Pad Therapy

So here's what I've been doing:

First, I cut open a heating pad and throw away everything but the heating elements that are sewn to the fabric.

Second, I wrap the heating pad around my penis, avoiding my scrotum.

Third, I hold the heating pad in place with a "Cable Clamp". This is a product that you can buy from "Ace Hardware" or some of the other hardware stores or I think Wal-mart has it as well. You want to get the larger clamp. Buy two of them.

I put one clamp near the base of my penis and the other one near the glan (head). That does a good job of holding the pad in place.

Be careful not to make it too hot. I usually set it at the low setting.

Typically, I wear it for as long as possible. It maintains excellent blood flow, keeps the penis nice and spongy, and drives heat into the plaque. I find this an excellent thing to do in order to prep your penis for your VED therapy. In fact, I sometimes wrap the heating pad around the cylinder while I'm doing VED therapy.

Just wondering how many have had luck using hypothermia?
I started 4 weeks ago using a 250watt infrared light and heating the old man to 102-105, trying to stay close to the middle of that and not sure if I'm seeing results are not. The plaque does seem to be doing something though. Its almost like when it first began. Wondering if its going to go in reverse and straighten out.

Seems like this thread has been going for awhile and only 1 or 2 giving results to the positive. Just wondering if anyone else is trying this and whether or not its working?

I used to wrap a heating pad around my member daily for as long as I could. It definitely increased blood flow temporarily. It's hard to determine if had contributed to my long-term results, but more blood flow down there is a good thing.

Quote from: elro on July 23, 2013, 09:32:38 AM
i'm thinking maybe 3-4 inches of lead wrapped in something, what metals are good at shielding UV rays?

First of all, most heat lamps emit very little UV--generally less than a regular visible light bulb. (There are some speciality bulbs for reptiles that are designed to emit some UV as well, but you have to pay extra for that.

Sure, lead will keep UV out. Anything you don't sunburn through will keep UV out. It will also keep IR out...until the lead gets really hot!

In my experience temporary positive results cause long term results in the end, and the longer you stay in that zone of temporary improvement, the better.

Especially with VED and traction. The moment you stop early on, it seems like you go back to 0, but if you just never let it go back to zero, and keep in a state of positive results from these treatments, those changes will become permanent. In my experience heat always helped my VED and stretching results. Now I hop in a hot shower twice a day, and I always feel better afterwards, particularly if I have to sit at work or in class. Heat, VED, and stretching always put me in a good place, and the results (from heat or not) are significant and are the product of small incremental changes over the period of two years.

As with bodybuilding, can I say with certainty that whey protein helped me achieve all the muscle I gained? How about creatine? I can't say anything about it, but given that the research is good, I say hell yeah it helped, and I'm gonna keep taking those things. Getting ripped took months and years of staying in a pumped up state (or leaning out state).

Peyronie's is definitely a different thing all together, but I say if it feels good and gives you any reduction in curvature temporary or not, that is simply amazing, and just as good as anything else we have.

I challenge all of you to stay home and stay in a state of reduced deformity for as long as possible. Use heat, light VED, light stretching, don't binge on masturbation. My improvement definitely came from hours at home with my penis out hanging off the edge of my chair! Literally almost every day it's the first thing I do. I get home, sit down and focus on my penis. My name "NeoV" actually comes from when I was in my darkest days one year ago, watching the Matrix trilogy and V for Vendetta stretching my penis for hours and hours a night!

"...stay in a state of reduced deformity for as long as possible." I like it!

I notice that one fellow earlier on this thread (Feb 2013)--who only posted twice on the forum--recommended running hot water over the penis while erect https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,915.msg44217.html#msg44217 (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,915.msg44217.html#msg44217), and claimed the deformity decreased in real time.

I'm not sure I could get an erection in a really hot shower, but it's an interesting concept. What do you think?

Its great.
I use a waterpump(bathmate) and fill it with hot water to the degree where I can barely be Ok with it. I only pump slihgtly without much pressure. I think you want to go over 40C* as thats the point where collagen gets more "formable".

I can go up to 43 degree rather comfortably.

I also put some vitamin c and acetyl l carnitine into the water in the hope it enters my dick.
After that I apply dmso with supps. I hope the scar tissue is then a bit softer and the supps can enter.

It feels good but it will take time.

Melting, very interesting! How long have you been doing this?

Since about two months but not as regular as needed. I think it has to be done daily. Every day until the tissue is remodeled/melted/gone.

I made progress. Im able to get erections and the plagues feel softer and maybe smaller.

I think the theory is sound but if not done daily its useless.

Hi Melting, what is the rationale behind vitamin c?

SKunkworks,
Vit. C is necessary for healthy collagen. In its absence unhealthy collagen forms = scars.
It is good vs. inflammation and fibrosis.

There is much literature about it if you search vit .c + above keywords.

I understand that hardened peyronies plagues have calcium deposited in it. This is a reason why a calcium blocker like verapamil is used.
This is an interesting article where a person "melted" calcium deposits with DMSO and vitamin C.
http://www.csom.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Melting-Calcium-Deposits-with-Transdermal-Dimethyl-SulfoxideAscorbic-Acid-Mixture-25.4.pdf

Vit c is just so basic that it gets overlooked easyily. We seem to search for a miracle supplement.
Vitamin C and Collagen (http://www.vitamincfoundation.org/collagen.html)

I think vitamin C should be a basic in peyronies treatment. Espacially topical.
It might make sense to combine it with MSM. The combination is said to form healthy collagen.
msm information (http://www.msm-info.com/) (and more in google)
It also said to be easily soluable in hot water. Im in the process to aquire it and use it with the same protocol I use the acetyl carnitine in hot water pump.

Ok thanks for that melting, I'll look into it further.

Interesting link, Melting!

Yeah, collagen is all about Vitamin C--plus the amino acids glycine and proline.

Tunica albuginea (penis) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunica_albuginea_%28penis%29)
"
The tunica albuginea is the fibrous envelope of the corpora cavernosa penis. It consists of approximately 5% elastin, an extensible tissue that is primarily made up of the amino acids glycine, valine, alanine, and proline. The majority of the remaining tissue is collagen, which is made up of lysine, proline, glycine, alanine, and other amino acids.[1]"

Of course we want to have it as eleastic as possible which is the polar opposite of scar tissue.

So if the needed building blocks are not there we wont get good elastic collagen. So we need them. Everything that leads to healthy collagen should be there in case our body wants to produce healthy collagen.

Everything that leads to healthy collagen should be avilable in our bodys(preferably at the scene of Peyronies Disease)

Now to not go off topic... When having the tissue warmed up and maybe stretched we want the supps needed to build healthy collagen on site. Of course if the body thinks it needs to repair with scar tissue in the first place then its moot.
Thats why we want to prevent scar tissue or chronic "fibrotic" inflammation.

___________

Now interestingly
Radiofrequency: How it works, and rates of collagen synthesis - the right-handed triple helix - Elastin and Adipocytes (http://www.info-radiofrecuencia-en.com/calentamiento-terapeutico-del-colageno.html)
"During the heating, the elastin swells but is not dissolved: elastin is very abundant in the walls of the arteries and in tissues such as lung tissue which require great elasticity. "
(in relation to heating collagen)
Which means that this plays indeed in our hands when we try to heat it up as much as possible.(about 42 degreees celcius for me)

I just cant find anything about how scar tissue and fibrous plagues are affected in relation to normal collagen by heat.

___________
Anyway as with all other applications im sure this is needed to be done very regurly, at best all day until the scar tissue is totally soft and flexible so blood and nutrients/supps can enter into it..

The Wikipedia entry there is a little misleading in terms of the makeup of collagen, and it doesn't list the amino acids in the order of importance/frequency.

Collagen varies a bit--there are several types--but it is about 33% glycine and 17% proline.

There is also a lot of hydroxyproline, which is derived from proline (so requires even more proline) by an enzymatic process that requires Vitamin C as a co-factor. There is actually very little lysine, but a fair amount of hydroxylysine...which also needs Vitamin C.

As I understand it, the limiting factor is usually proline--unless there is a shortage of Vitamin C.

The info on elastin is very interesting. The radiofrequency stuff...I'll have to go think about that! Thanks!

I plan on building a small device composed of a near infrared LED. Certain frequencies are shown to have great effects on healing (membranes), stimulating stem cells and reducing inflammation - as mentioned many times in this post. Biophysics is now showing that even mitochondria health can be improved this way, reducing both autophagy and mitophagy, we really are beings of light.

The LED I have is a fish tank 630nm LED with heat sink built in. At the right power level and therefore heat output it could be placed next the skin directly over the plaque. I've tried this and in the dark you can see the light penetrating deep into the penis. The tunica is thick however and if the plaque deep the photons may not make it there. If so an LED in the range of 830-860nms would penetrate deeper. This device will be powered by a couple of AAA batteries or perhaps 1. I have to work out the power/resistor value to get the correct heat output. This will be 100% localised, so no testicle heating and should be wearable under the trousers as it will be very small. My thought is the mechanical heat produced with help break the collagen bonds and the infra red reduce inflammation and promote cellular healing at the same time.

I also plan to use a PEMF device at the same time. Also shown at the correct frequencies to promote stem cell activity at the location used as well as increasing cellular energy. I've not seen PEMF mentioned on the forum.

I just need to get to it!

I realise much of the above has been said already in this post / forum, but I think the cheap wearable LED approach is new. Anyway if anyone of you good folk have any thoughts on the above please fire away!

Very best,
LeeBee

Really interesting thanks LeeBee

You will have seen in other threads that many have gained substantial benefits from basic 'heatpacks' (used by skiers in their gloves etc) myself included.

So it will be very interesting to see whether this extra Photonic dimension you are adding takes the results to a new level.

Even if your device is not wearable, it's still an interesting treatment mode.

I know PEMF's sound like Sci-Fi but it has been demonstrated that they work on bone fractures that have not healed (closed) naturally. I'm not sure it is yet understood exactly why that is. But it works well enough for such units to be in use in the NHS !

I haven't heard or seen anything on PEMF effects on collagen/fibrosis though, or how/if there is a combination benefit with IR.

One thing you didn't mention is, what the proposed treatment regime/schedule would look like ??

Please keep us in the loop, cheers

LED for heating is interesting, could you post a picture of the LED you are modifying?

I recently got some carbon heater tape to build a wrap around heat pad, but the power consumption of carbon tape is really quite high, possibly too high to be feasible. LED might be a good option.

It's these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=141679345010

Just checked the specs, I have the 640 - 660nm 3w. I wanted something around 650nm. The 1w might actually be more efficient for the heat output, i.e. less resistance required.

You cant see in this picture, however beneath the white plastic housing base is a metal heat sink.

And I see you are also in Oz SkunkW...I've got a load of these and will happily send you a few.

Hey Gutted,

WRT to treatment routine, I thought I would start with an hour a day, but I haven't thought about this too much.

Here's a round up of studies on infrared and it's use in wound healing:
http://www.revitavet.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/MechanismsActionInfraredLightTissueHealing.pdf

A benefit for Peyronnie's is it increases nitric oxide and therefore blood flow and reduce inflammation. Other highlights include increasing healing by 25%-35%, and:

"The irradiation by infrared light triggers the natural repair mechanisms carried out by the body. Several of the mechanisms of action for light therapy that work to alleviate pain and inflammation also play an important role in tissue healing. Wound healing progresses through stages of inflammation, proliferation, remodeling and maturation. Light therapy has been demonstrated to impact each of these phases in beneficial ways."

Very generous of you LeeBee69 and I'll take you up on that if your finished product is something I'd also be able to put together (wouldn't want to waste your n/ir leds).

Great idea by the way. With the way treatments are at present, I think the most valuable time will be spent figuring out ways to deliver consistent heat more conveniently and paired with traction. Traction+heat simply blows away any other treatment option in my opinion, though I suppose if heated VED sessions were doable there is a good chance that would work well also.

Thanks LeeBee ..... I'll get myself on your Ebay link or look for something ready made in the 650nm range you suggest

Would near IR work through the transparent sides of a VED?

If the VED is from glass, IR would not penetrate as glass acts as mirror, same as water.
Regarding plastics I don't know, but as a fact all the IR cameras have no plastic defending cover so maybe will not penetrate plastic also

James

I am considering trying this. Would putting a towel over the testicles help to protect them?

cowboy James, this is interesting.
Many types of lamps and bulbs used by some for light therapy (such as Incandescents, heat lamps, infrared lamps at 1000nm+) give off a significant amount of heat and therefore are NOT suitable for use on the testicles. I presume a towel would work in theory, or perhaps a small thin (manageable) piece of balsa wood could do the trick (cheap), wood being an excellent insulator if it could be secured/held.

I read (and was not aware), red light therapy directly on the testicles for short, regular periods would raise testosterone levels.

Red or infrared light from an LED source (600-950nm) can be safely applied to the testes without risk of side effects or damage, the mechanism that red wavelengths work is to stimulate ATP and therefore Testosterone levels.
Red/infrared wavelengths have been shown to boost testicular sperm production and viability of sperm.

Source is https://redlightman.com/blog/red-light-triples-testicle-health-function/

The above site also has a link below regarding red light and erectile dysfunction

also https://redlightman.com/blog/red-light-therapy-treats-erectile-dysfunction/

i have no affiliation with the above site and include it only as an information source  :)

I may consider a protocol using this in future to maintain Testosterone so thanks for raising this topic  :)

I'd probably go with a laser diode..they tend to be more common than LEDs in the IR range. LEDs may also be too diffuse through the glass. With a laser diode I would expect there to be some diffusion through the glass and you would then have a patch of light rather than a dot.

Cheers,
LeeBee

While using the rice sock, I rarely feel as if my testicles are warming up.

Maybe they are, but I try not to put the sock near them much, even though I use it on the base of my penis.

Just posted in a different thread on a heat pad. There's also IR LED info there too:

DIY Hyperthermic Device - Peyronies Society Forums (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,7994.0.html)

Cheers,
LeeBee