Hey all,
My name is Drew and I'm President of FocusWave Clinic here in Ottawa Canada.
We see patients suffering from ED, Peyronies Disease, CPPS, UI, and all kinds of chronic orthopaedic pains.
We offer 6 treatment courses for patients using only the Storz SD1 Duluth (Focused/Linear Shockwaves).
Having great success - though I wish it was 100% - still we are seeing some great results.
I'm looking to chat with anyone who is currently using shockwave and discuss technique, clinic strategy.
From patients, I'm looking to hear from you as well - if I can answer any questions for you, fire away!
Would also love to hear more about your experiences with shockwave and other techniques for improving your sexual wellness..
Cheers!
fyi, we've had very few (if any) members here that got any improvement from shockwave therapy. We have dedicated a board to just this topic.
https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/board,36.0.html (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/board,36.0.html)
I have a question. Why charge money for a treatment that does literally nothing for Peyronies disease in terms of deformities curvatures etc. Could you link me a single medically done study which shows shockwave does anything for Penile curvature or other deformities?
Time and time again do I read about people on here who underwent this procedure, ended up paying high fees only to see no changes at all or even becoming worse!
Quote from: Sonic on January 11, 2023, 02:36:03 PM
I have a question. Why charge money for a treatment that does literally nothing for Peyronies disease in terms of deformities curvatures etc. Could you link me a single medically done study which shows shockwave does anything for Penile curvature or other deformities?
Time and time again do I read about people on here who underwent this procedure, ended up paying high fees only to see no changes at all or even becoming worse!
We've had great success using Focused shockwaves - certainly not 100% which really blows - but patients reporting reduced plaque / scar tissue / calcifications...and some also reporting reduced curvatures...really amazing.
There's not a ton of data, but here are a few more recent studies:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30929330/
After treatment, the median (interquartile range, IQR) plaque size reduced from 1.78 cm² (1.43-2.17 cm²) to 1.53 cm² (1.31-1.96 cm²) (p<0.001); the median (IQR) penile length in erection increased from 13.0 cm (12.0-14.0 cm) to 14 cm (13.0-15.0 cm) (p<0.001) and the median (IQR) penile curvature from 30.4° (22.2°-35.4°) to 25.0° (20.2°-30.4°) (p<0.001). We also observed a decrease in pain assessed by visual analogue scale (7 vs. 3; p<0.001), an improvement in each of the IIEF sub-domains (p<0.001) and an improvement in all three Peyronies Disease questionnaire domains (p<0.001).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8788614/
LiESWT had a favorable impact on Lue score, penile pain, curvature, and plaque size in patients treated during the acute phase of Peyronies Disease. Younger age and concomitant use of PDE5i were predictors of success *Not SS but interesting and solid results...
"There's not a ton of data, but here are a few more recent studies"
Considering the lack of evidence do you charge a reasonable and ethical fee for the procedure? I'm sure the Canadian members would like to know. Also, do you do sexual health questionnaires before and after treatment to document the success you are claiming?
Personally, I have had 3 or 4 treatments (because of the outrageous price) with ESWT and recall getting some improvement in my erection quality but not my plaque (had p-shot along with it so I can't be sure which helped). I considered doing it again but I live in a new area to far from the last clinic and in my new area I am skeptical of the providers and their fees none are urologists and some not even MD's.
I did six sessions at a place in Toronto with the most up top date and supposedly best shock wave machine on the market. They advertise their clinic on the radio all the time. I was told to continue all 12. But I followed my gut and stopped. A few weeks later my curve got slightly worse. Shockwave might help ED but in my experience it does nothing for Peyronies Disease and may even make it worse.
Why in the logic world would Shockwaves/focus waves or Gain waves do anything on a injured penis???? There is a high chance that will make it worse, I'm sick and tired of fake therapies that make our condition worse, so please don't false advertise that any waves help, because they don't!!!!
As pointed out by Dr Trost -Im sure he doesn't mind me stating this, as of December of 2022, ESWT is considered a scam. Sure, in terms of the rare anecdotal improvements theres limited data, but these men do a myriad of treatments (as we all do) and who knows what works. Im just tired of these advertisements that pray on people with a devastating condition willing to try anything. And charge an exorbitant cost. Theres no way to know that it doesn't cause as much damage as its supposed benefit.
Buy a machine for a few grand and charge people $600 per session.
Quote from: Trapper on January 11, 2023, 05:47:30 PM
"There's not a ton of data, but here are a few more recent studies"
Considering the lack of evidence do you charge a reasonable and ethical fee for the procedure? I'm sure the Canadian members would like to know. Also, do you do sexual health questionnaires before and after treatment to document the success you are claiming?
Personally, I have had 3 or 4 treatments (because of the outrageous price) with ESWT and recall getting some improvement in my erection quality but not my plaque (had p-shot along with it so I can't be sure which helped). I considered doing it again but I live in a new area to far from the last clinic and in my new area I am skeptical of the providers and their fees none are urologists and some not even MD's.
I would say that approvals by the national regulator for the equipment we are using is an important milestone.
I wouldn't say there is a lack of evidence - I would just say it's not as robust as we might hope - but it's improving all the time. Studies are being done globally for not just Peyronies Disease, but ED, CPPS, and a host of chronic pain conditions. Treatments for ulcer, burns, wounds, aesthetics and neurology are also available or coming soon. The science is quite excellent so far.
Yes - we do SHIM scoring before and after, and we recommend patients do a penile ultrasound if possible to measure plaque sizes for Peyronies Disease. Chronic Pain questionnaires before and after for other conditions.
What is an ethical and reasonable fee for treatment? We charge between $300-$600 per treatment, depending on a few factors.
We are also a business and while we use the best and most expensive technology in the marketplace, we also provide a service to push our patients to make other vital improvements to their vascular health.
We compete with urologists who often don't know much about the research being done on focused shockwave. Their process is to provide pills, surgery and injections.
It's very important to understand the difference between focused/linear shockwave vs. low power radial/acoustic wave pushed by the Gainswavers...
Our patients are seeking non pharmaceutical, non invasive, painless treatments. With the understanding that NO medical treatment is 100% effective.
Quote from: JR678 on January 11, 2023, 06:11:23 PM
I did six sessions at a place in Toronto with the most up top date and supposedly best shock wave machine on the market. They advertise their clinic on the radio all the time. I was told to continue all 12. But I followed my gut and stopped. A few weeks later my curve got slightly worse. Shockwave might help Erectile Dysfunction but in my experience it does nothing for Peyronies Disease and may even make it worse.
Which clinic? Can I ask what machine and what you paid?
And how long had you been dealing with Peyronies Disease when you started treatment?
Yes, sometimes 6 Tx is not enough. And sometimes your symptoms will worsen before they improve (we have seen this, too)..
But most important to know is what technology was used to at least know you were given the best fighting chance for success.
Quote from: Bud luck on January 11, 2023, 07:33:43 PM
Why in the logic world would Shockwaves/focus waves or Gain waves do anything on a injured penis???? There is a high chance that will make it worse, I'm sick and tired of fake therapies that make our condition worse, so please don't false advertise that any waves help, because they don't!!!!
Again - important to know what technology you are talking about. The results for reducing plaque/scar tissue/calcification is quite excellent. There are several published studies confirming this. For almost everyone it's painless. The odds of this treatment worsening the condition is exceptionally low - though I believe it is possible.
FOCUSED shockwave therapy certainly works - just not for everyone. But what medical procedure or treatment does?
Then you are saying that Dr Trost is lying when he said that any Waves are a SCAM, please do not try to get rich in here promoting your fake therapy, there is nothing on this world at this moment that can get rid of penis fibrosis, NOTHING. I will please ask the moderator to remove this post
Quote from: Dent4ever on January 11, 2023, 08:54:47 PM
As pointed out by Dr Trost -Im sure he doesn't mind me stating this, as of December of 2022, ESWT is considered a scam. Sure, in terms of the rare anecdotal improvements theres limited data, but these men do a myriad of treatments (as we all do) and who knows what works. Im just tired of these advertisements that pray on people with a devastating condition willing to try anything. And charge an exorbitant cost. Theres no way to know that it doesn't cause as much damage as its supposed benefit.
Buy a machine for a few grand and charge people $600 per session.
A few grand? Yeah, those aren't focused shockwave therapy devices.
My machines cost $60,000 and $90,000 respectively.
I'm not sure where you are getting your information...
Quote from: Bud luck on January 12, 2023, 12:10:16 PM
Then you are saying that Dr Trost is lying when he said that any Waves are a SCAM, please do not try to get rich in here promoting your fake therapy, there is nothing on this world at this moment that can get rid of penis fibrosis, NOTHING. I will please ask the moderator to remove this post
Yes - if anyone tells you that focused shockwaves are a SCAM - they are either lying to you or perhaps just misinformed.
If anyone tells you that they work 100% of the time - they are also lying to you.
Showed me prove of your clients improvements in terms of deformities?, oh I know you can't because of patients confidiality, is just your word as a supreme healer, so many scamers come to this forum to get patients with fake therapies, you are not the first one, but have empathy for us and STOP promoting lies
Quote from: Bud luck on January 12, 2023, 12:24:39 PM
Showed me prove of your clients improvements in terms of deformities?, oh I know you can't because of patients confidiality, is just your word as a supreme healer, so many scamers come to this forum to get patients with fake therapies, you are not the first one, but have empathy for us and STOP promoting lies
We have plenty of testimonials on Trustpilot/Google...It's a tough thing to 'review' so that we have gotten the reviews we have gotten, well, I'm proud of that.
That said - I'm not here to promote my clinic - unless you happen to be in my locale it makes no difference to me financially.
I'm here to gain knowledge about this condition, to learn how to help my patients get even better results, and to assist anyone with questions about this treatment for Erectile Dysfunction, Peyronies Disease, CPPS, chronic pain from a clinic perspective (eg. What questions should you ask your clinic to ensure you have the best chance for success, etc).
If you find no value in this then that's your problem.
My problem is because people like you made my condition worse, when you have an injury in the penis that causes fibrosis the last thing you need is to put pressure of any kind on those injuries, and why should I trusted you over world renowned Urologists that specialize on penis fibrosis?.
Quote from: Bud luck on January 12, 2023, 02:12:31 PM
My problem is because people like you made my condition worse, when you have an injury in the penis that causes fibrosis the last thing you need is to put pressure of any kind on those injuries, and why should I trusted you over world renowned Urologists that specialize on penis fibrosis?.
Again - you would have needed to do your homework.
What machine was used? What technology was used? Did you not go see a urologist before considering this treatment?
An Urologist did the treatment. Did any of your patients got improvements on their deformities?, better erections? Did anyone got worse?
I was not off by saying a few grand. Do a quick Google search on eswt machines and they pop right up. Idk if there's some super special ESWT machine that cost 30x the amount that does things much better but I do know this: I have seen over 7 urologists and the ones that had a shockwave in the office highly recommended it and the ones that didn't thought it was a waste and I believe when someone has a more neutral way of saying -you can try it but do your research and the reason we don't have one is because the success is extremely low, not because we can't afford one. Ironically the ones that did recommend it wanted to do the whole PRP, sups, shockwave and basically throw the kitchen sink at it. Do a YouTube search on shockwave -IGNORE companies obviously that promote their own service and watch all the renowned Urologists reviews that go over all peyronies treatment options available. They give an unbiased review.
The truth of the matter is that I tried the Shockwaves and PRP combined with O Zone therapy and I got worse!!!!!, the question is, if these FAKE treatments are proven that don't work or even worse, in some cases like mine it makes it worse, why all these "clincs" are keep doing it without being accountable?, I try to report the "clinic" the injected me a non FDA approved injection into my penis that made my penis way worse and they told me that can't do nothing because "I consent" the procedure, so basically they can make millions destroying men's penises by lying and not being accountable,this is beyond depressing!!!
Quote from: Bud luck on January 13, 2023, 02:44:46 PM
An Urologist did the treatment. Did any of your patients got improvements on their deformities?, better erections? Did anyone got worse?
What machine? Was it focused or radial/acoustic?
Yes, we have seen many patients make a whole range of improvements.
Yes, better erections is common.
Curvature improvement is a fickle bitch and it's less likely (especially in the short run).
But we have seen it some patients.
It is happening.
NEVER heard of anyone getting worse (and this is after hundreds+ patients)...
though for some patients who have only recently noticed their Peyronies Disease, and still have somewhat painful erections, I have heard that there can be some pain during the treatment, even with the generally speaking 'painless' FOCUSED shockwaves.
Important to know what kind of device was used for your treatment.
Quote from: Bud luck on January 13, 2023, 05:19:48 PM
The truth of the matter is that I tried the Shockwaves and PRP combined with O Zone therapy and I got worse!!!!!, the question is, if these FAKE treatments are proven that don't work or even worse, in some cases like mine it makes it worse, why all these "clincs" are keep doing it without being accountable?, I try to report the "clinic" the injected me a non FDA approved injection into my penis that made my penis way worse and they told me that can't do nothing because "I consent" the procedure, so basically they can make millions destroying men's penises by lying and not being accountable,this is beyond depressing!!!
Dude - this is very frustrating. I sympathize because I speak with hundreds of men every month suffering in some shape or another. Sounds like you have tried to throw everything at it and nothing is working (and something has made it worse).
Hopefully it's only temporary.
Have you ever been to a naturopathic doctor?
While they probably won't be able to help you with the Peyronies Disease part of things, they can help in other ways.
Find one that specializes in sexual health.
Might be worth it to get a baseline with them - and also seek some additional suggestions on how to improve your overall function.
Might be useless but as long as you are open to trying things....
My own experience - I've had unbelievable help from an amazing ND who fixed MULTIPLE problems that specialists (dermatologist, cardiologist) couldn't fix.
If shockwave treatment reduces pain; then, does shockwave treatment also reduce sensitivity to some degree ?
Do you test sensitivity before and after ? If so; how ? Do you use an EMG to test velocity ?
Thank you in advance for your response.
I know our forum is only a sampling of men, and no real statistics can be drawn from this. But i think we need to be cautious and understand details. To say many men have benefitted from shock wave therapy doesn't help if we don't know their original symptoms. We just assume they are trying to correct symptoms same as ours individually.
Maybe shock wave helps with pain of some sort. That doesn't mean these men have/had peyronies. Or how bad their curves were/are. I just haven't seen any credible studies nor have we had anyone here state that shock wave helped them.
We don't test sensitivity before/after.
THANK YOU for this suggestion.
We rely on self reporting for plaque/pain, some pain questionnaires if necessary, and dopplers to measure blood flow.
We also refer patients for U/S to measure plaques before and after if they so choose.
Correct - I only have my clinic's sampling of men and everyone of them is different, suffering from different degrees from different conditions for different reasons. They are all in different health categories, ages, psychological stress, etc.
Baselines and follow ups are important.
Maintenance is important since it seems we are always in a state of degradation.
There are many dozens of studies and they don't all confirm that this treatment works for all kinds of patients.
Our patients (about 75% of them) report material improvement in their respective conditions.
25% of them don't. And that really sucks. Not every treatment works well for everyone.
I always like to say - shockwave (THE RIGHT KIND OF SHOCKWAVE) is a magic wand but it's not a silver bullet.
Thanks...
clinic sampling is 99% of times biased, to say the least. I think everbody here is sick and tired of these dealers popping up out of nowhere..
Quote from: Jack1909 on January 17, 2023, 08:36:59 AM
clinic sampling is 99% of times biased, to say the least. I think everbody here is sick and tired of these dealers popping up out of nowhere..
Well said!
Quote from: Jack1909 on January 17, 2023, 08:36:59 AM
clinic sampling is 99% of times biased, to say the least. I think everbody here is sick and tired of these dealers popping up out of nowhere..
99%? Really?
Is that your experience?
Who's a dealer? I'm not selling anything - if you aren't in my backyard I have ZERO to gain by talking to you.
But I'm willing to listen, answer questions, ask them, and discuss.
I've spent the last 2.5 years talking with THOUSANDS of men.
My experience is that shockwave (the right kind of shockwave) has tremendously positive results for the majority of patients deemed to be candidates for our treatment.
But you can stay sick and tired - your choice.
FocusWaves,There is no one single study done by Doctors mentioning that the Waves work for penis fibrosis, and in some they mention that makes the fibrosis WORSE in some men!!!!, I was naive and I trusted all the Scamers with their 'alternative treatments' that made my poor penis worse than ever, if I didn't try all that crap I've still would be ok, you are not an ethical individual by promoting FALSE hope to sufferers of this awful affliction.
Quote from: Bud luck on January 19, 2023, 05:15:06 PM
FocusWaves,There is no one single study done by Doctors mentioning that the Waves work for penis fibrosis, and in some they mention that makes the fibrosis WORSE in some men!!!!, I was naive and I trusted all the Scamers with their 'alternative treatments' that made my poor penis worse than ever, if I didn't try all that crap I've still would be ok, you are not an ethical individual by promoting FALSE hope to sufferers of this awful affliction.
and if there was - would it make your condition better?
No.
But here's one:
https://www.ajandrology.com/article.asp?issn=1008-682X;year=2022;volume=24;issue=1;spage=45;epage=49;aulast=Abdessater
This uses Piezoelectric shockwaves (also linear)...
"LiESWT had a favorable impact on Lue score, penile pain, curvature, and plaque size in patients treated during the acute phase of Peyronies Disease. Younger age and concomitant use of PDE5i were predictors of success"
Quote from: FocusWaveClinic on January 19, 2023, 04:43:01 PM
I've spent the last 2.5 years talking with THOUSANDS of men.
My experience is that shockwave (the right kind of shockwave) has tremendously positive results for the majority of patients deemed to be candidates for our treatment.
But you can stay sick and tired - your choice.
Maybe I am incorrect I am not an administrator but I think the forum is for men with peyroines disease/ED. Not a clinic manager that doesn't actually treat the patients?
If you want to share you are seeing success with ESWT great but probably best to leave it at that and not get angry and defensive with men who have not had success with the treatment and themselves or are angry about it's failure.