There's an interesting thread (http://www.imminst.org/forum/L-Arginine-and-sleep-t29573.html) at imminst.org about l-arginine and sleep. Perhaps it's better taken at bedtime as it promotes restful sleep. For nocturnal erections, that timing sounds good too. I'm going to try this tonight.
Does long does it remain in the system for? A take it whenever I take pentox. In combination with cialis, which I take regularly so it always in my system, I'm trying to make sure that they are always working. I had noticed that bedtime thread myself, so for those taking it once a day, it does seem to be the most sensible option.
Is it recommended to take l-arginine with pentox? I have been on pentox for 6 months now (hopefully get this extended tomorrow when I see my uro as I'm out of refills). I have never incorporated l-arginine into the mix. If so whats a good brand and dosage to go with? Sorry if this is a tiny bit off topic.
Also it seems that pycnogenol can up the effectiveness of l-arginine. Anyone taking both of these? Is it worth it? Dosages.
Ahhh so many questions ;D
Does anyone know how long it takes arginine to raise nitric oxide levels?
Is it a case of hours, weeks or days?
From PMID 10355867 (http://pubmed.gov/10355867):
QuotePlasma L-arginine concentrations change during the day and are influenced by dietary intake. Importantly, plasma NOx do not seem to vary with this pattern in healthy individuals.
They found when people ate a fixed amount of l-arginine in their diet at meals, the plasma NOx didn't change much over the course of the day. That's not how we are taking it though.
Another study (http://www.springerlink.com/content/3eag5f2n4hxclxdf/) gave intravenous l-arginine and found that NOx peaked 10 hours later.
So, I'm calling it 11 hours when taking orally, and will probably switch to suppertime for l-arginine and pycnogenol.
Quote from: slowandsteady on October 15, 2009, 10:57:14 AM
So, I'm calling it 11 hours when taking orally, and will probably switch to suppertime for l-arginine and pycnogenol.
Do you think it's important to take l-arginine before food? I take so many supplements that on occasion when is best to take them all becomes a bit of a blur :)
Quote from: ashen311 on October 15, 2009, 07:06:38 AM
Is it recommended to take l-arginine with pentox?
Also it seems that pycnogenol can up the effectiveness of l-arginine. Anyone taking both of these? Is it worth it? Dosages.
Ahhh so many questions ;D
It's hard to be sure of its importance but animal studies point towards it being useful, and some urologists also suggest it as part of the PAV cocktail (pentox, l-arginine, viagra). Adding pynogenol to l-arginine seems to improve erections compared to just l-arginine on its own.
what's the "usual" dosage of both?
Quote from: ashen311 on October 15, 2009, 12:46:40 PM
what's the "usual" dosage of both?
QuotePenile erection requires the relaxation of the cavernous smooth muscle, which is triggered by nitric oxide (NO). We investigated the possibility of overcoming erectile dysfunction (ED) by increasing the amounts of endogenous NO. For this purpose, we orally administered Pycnogenol, because it is known to increase production of NO by nitric oxide syntase together with L-arginine as substrate for this enzyme. The study included 40 men, aged 25-45 years, without confirmed organic erectile dysfunction. Throughout the 3-month trial period, patients received 3 ampoules Sargenor a day, a drinkable solution of the dipeptide arginyl aspartate (equivalent to 1.7 g L-arginine per day). During the second month, patients were additionally supplemented with 40 mg Pycnogenol two times per day; during the third month, the daily dosage was increased to three 40-mg Pycnogenol tablets. We obtained a sexual function questionnaire and a sexual activity diary from each patient. After 1 month of treatment with L-arginine, a statistically nonsignificant number of 2 patients (5%) experienced a normal erection. Treatment with a combination of L-arginine and Pycnogenol for the following month increased the number of men with restored sexual ability to 80%. Finally, after the third month of treatment, 92.5% of the men experienced a normal erection. We conclude that oral administration of L-arginine in combination with Pycnogenol causes a significant improvement in sexual function in men with ED without any side effects.
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12851125
Here's a study involving the two supplements. It's not a bad starting point and there are no fixed adeas about how much people should tae. I tend to take about 4-5g of l-arginine spread over the day, and maybe 100mg of pycnogenol
What's a good source to buy pyconegol and l-arginine? Sorry if im a bit off topic but I am trying to save money because I can't afford to waste. I would normally go to The Vitamin Shop but I think that would probably be a foolish idea if you could get a great deal over the internet. Can anyone help me out eh eh? =P
Pycnogenol (http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Pycnogenol-60-mg-50-Vcaps/772?at=0) and l-arginine (http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-L-Arginine-Powder-1-lb-454-g/369?at=0).
Quote from: slowandsteady on October 22, 2009, 11:54:14 AM
Pycnogenol (http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Pycnogenol-60-mg-50-Vcaps/772?at=0) and l-arginine (http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-L-Arginine-Powder-1-lb-454-g/369?at=0).
Also, good deals at puritans pride; usually buy 1 get 1 for a total of 2, and buy 2 get 3 for a total of 5.
L-arginine http://www.puritan.com/arginine-501/l-arginine-1000-mg-007888?NewPage=1
Pycnogenol http://www.puritan.com/pycnogenol-519/pycnogenol-60-mg-002171?NewPage=1
CF
I ordered 100mg tablets of Pycnogenol. Seems like everyone else is linking to 60mg. Is this going to be a problem with the 100mg? Should I order the 60mg bottle?
Ouch! They definitely aren't cheap! =/ Would you guys recommend that I get the L-arginine and pycnogenol? Or should I just get one of them? Gah I wish I had a lot of cash! Would just buy this stuff on the spot.
I remember not too long ago someone posting that Lysine supplementation might in fact make the condition worse, something to do with collagen maybe. I will try to find the post.
I know my dermotologist who specializes in Vitiligo told me to stop taking Arginine as it is an oxidant and could contribute to the skin condition Vitiligo. She said she's seeing more men with V than ever before and a lot of men are taking Arginine as a bodybuilding supplement, ect., so she's putting two and two together. She may be right, she may be wrong - I know my V started somewhere in proximity to my starting Arginine, I just can't say for sure whether it started before Arginine or not, so I'll never know for sure.
Nemo
Quote from: skunkworks on October 23, 2009, 07:06:20 PM
I remember not too long ago someone posting that Lysine supplementation might in fact make the condition worse, something to do with collagen maybe. I will try to find the post.
This one (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,38.msg22376.html#msg22376) by Hawk?
Alex, where are you getting that there's "some evidence out there that vitiligo is viral"? I've never heard that ...
Nemo
Quote from: Nemo on October 25, 2009, 06:40:50 PM
Alex, where are you getting that there's "some evidence out there that vitiligo is viral"? I've never heard that ...
Nemo
Nemo, There is an old theory often espoused by natural medicine people that "auto-immune" syndromes are really caused by pathogens, viruses or bacteria that infest tissue in a way that causes ongoing damage to those tissues. They dispute the traditional theories of inappropriate immune responses otherwise known as auto-immune syndromes. This may or may not be what Alex is referring to. My thoughts on this are that when the immune system is unable to suppress pathogens, that indicates a problem with the immune system just as much as an auto-immune response would. But it seems obvious to me that Alex is trying to challenge the theory that auto-immune issues are behind Peyronie's even though there is established evidence that they are. In this case, he seems to be applying that same logic to vitiligo. - George
Well last night I took 500mg of l-arginine right before bedtime. I did notice an improvement in nocturnal erections. I have some Pycnogenol that I know is recommended to pair with the l-arg but it's 100mg tablets and most people seem to take just 60mg. Not sure if that would really matter or not.
Found this on webmd about Pycnogenol, not sure how it may apply to Peyronies being though by some as an immune problem.
Quote"Auto-immune diseases" such as multiple sclerosis (MS), lupus (systemic lupus erythematosus, SLE), rheumatoid arthritis (RA), or other conditions: Pycnogenol might cause the immune system to become more active, and this could increase the symptoms of auto-immune diseases. If you have one of these conditions, it's best to avoid using pycnogenol.
Quote from: Nemo on October 25, 2009, 06:40:50 PMAlex, where are you getting that there's "some evidence out there that vitiligo is viral"? I've never heard that...
http://www.google.com/search?q=vitiligos+virus (http://www.google.com/search?q=vitiligos+virus) turned up some information about vitiligo and hepatitis C. And by that, I only mean "some information," before somebody here gets all bent out of shape (haha) I am not proposing some vague theory, just trying to point out existing research.
If you search on PubMed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/)) for 'vitiligo virus' (not as a phrase, as separate keywords), you'll also bring up more research. Again, this is just FYI to possibly help you with the condition.
George999, I wasn't really saying that vitilogo was autoimmune in nature, just a potential side effect or direct effect of a virus. You are right to say that I'm skeptical of an autoimmune origin for Peyronie's. A much more plausible theory is that the penis, probably the most highly vascularized organ in the human body, will show signs of cardiovascular disease earlier than other organs. But I don't want to be accused of thread hijacking again, if you want to take time, please send me some autoimmune info through a PM. I know that what I've read on the forum in the past was not convincing.
l-arginine at bedtime seems to be beneficial for me as well. Good for the ole morning glory, as it were.
On another topic, the cardiovascular disease theory of Peyronie's doesn't make sense. Peyronie's is likely due to a number of factors including genetics, trauma and the body's response to injury. If Peyronie's was a barometer for cardiovascular disease, then we happy few, we band of brothers, wouldn't be skulking around the anonymity of the internet. Instead, millions upon millions of men would be complaining of bent ding dongs on Oprah and you'd have Pentox commercials during Monday Night Football and NASCAR. Heart disease is very common; Peyronie's is not.
I have Peyronie's, not heart disease. My erectile functioning is great. My blood flow is great. My resting heart rate is very low because I'm a runner and I'm in good shape. I am 30 years old and I got this from an injury (with my genetic history as a possible contributing factor, darned Dutch, Dane and English ancestry!). Indeed, some men with heart disease or very poor circulation due to diabetes may get Peyronie's or corporal fibrosis, but correlation does not equal causation.
Quote from: Skjaldborg on October 26, 2009, 11:11:17 PMI have Peyronie's, not heart disease.
There is NOT ONE study linking Peyronie's to heart disease. The research instead links Peyronie's to diabetes. Heart disease IS linked to ED, NOT to Peyronie's. This is what you learn when you actually read through the research rather than just come up with ideas. - George
George
In my case I can directly relate coronary artery disease (CAD) to ED.
Jackp
My 2 cents, I've been taking l-arginine at bedtime for a while. Since I have, I've noticed that I usually wake up with a decent "morning wood". It seems also that this is the only time my erections don't have some degree of pain or soreness to them. I highly recommend l-arginine at bedtime! Actually, I take it 2 hours before bedtime to be exact along with Pentox. Directly before bed, I've been taking 8 oz. of diluted food grade hydrogen peroxide *delivers oxygen direct to your body's cells allegedly*.
The reasoning behind this regime the l-arginine & pentox should be taken with food & you should wait 2 hours after eating to put the food grade h2o2 in your system. Been doing this for a week & 1/2. I'll post progress reports. Most definitely improves the morning wood & that can't be a bad thing! ;)
Hi Everybody,
As I'm still new to the peyronies situation (started 7/09), I'm in the process of putting together a proper plan of action to combat it (having learned from this forum that my urologist's advice of "Vitamin E and wait and see" was NOT in my best interest if i wanted to get a handle on this condition early before later calcification could occur.
I've already decided on the 3 cylinder VED approach for exercising and stretching the region.
Now I wish to add some kind of "internal" plan, as well. And reading the posts I can see lots of various suggestions, but I'm sort of confused in terms of narrowing down the choices for what would be best for my own particular condition.
For me, pain and/or discomfort has never been an issue from day one, so a "pain" treatment is not necessary. Just one day in early July, Mr. Happy decided to bend at a 45 degree sharp angle, and I guess I lost about an inch of elasticity
Indentation along the sides of where the bend is seems fairly minor, and the "plaque" really can't be seen or felt as a lump, just where it bends I fees the tissue is a bit harder internally in that spot.
Problems with ED aren't major, and I think when I've had them it's been due to the psychological issue, since when I'm alone and relaxed and reading an erotic story I can have no problems. But I have a prescription for Levitra anyway, which I take a quarter pill when with my wife just so my mind doesn't have to worry about "will he or won't he".
Sorry if that all comes across as TMI, but I figured it best to narrow down the best choices for oral treatments for treating my own particular infliction.
Now for the questions:
I can see that Pentox seems to be a very popular recommendation as a blood thinner. As my urologist put me on high doses of Vitamin E (another blood thinner), would Pentox work better in that area?
Frequent erections are also highly recommended. I see l'arginine brought up a lot to help with nocturnal erections (when taken at night). I've also seen where someone brought up the usage of trazodone. Apparently this drug is normally prescribed to treat depression or sleeplessness when used in dosages of 100mg - 400mg, but has the side effect of nocturnal erections and can achieve that in dosages of 25mg at night... enough for the side effect but too low a dose to cause problems. Is one better than the other?
Anything else that one can recommend for breaking up plaque or just general circulatory health? I should mention that improving my circulation might be a good idea overall as I've always felt my circulation was awful (I'm like a reptile, when the weather is even SLIGHTLY cold my hands and feet are like icebergs, even if I wear gloves and socks an inch thick).
Sorry for this long post, but I just wanted to try to narrow down the best options of all the various drugs, and advice from those more experienced will be appreciated. Then the next step will be to arm myself with info for the drugs that need a prescription and lobby my uro hard, and order the over the counter ones as soon as possible to get the ball rolling.
Thanks very, very much!
Quote from: sunsetsonfire on November 04, 2009, 07:30:21 PM
Now for the questions:
I can see that Pentox seems to be a very popular recommendation as a blood thinner. As my urologist put me on high doses of Vitamin E (another blood thinner), would Pentox work better in that area?
There is research based evidence that Pentox is effective against Peyronie's. There is exactly zero credible evidence that Vitamin E is effective against Peyronie's. The problem is that few physicians are aware of the very successful use of Pentox to treat Peyronie's, and since that use is off-label, that is the drug is not FDA approved for Peyronie's, most physicians refuse to prescribe it. But the reality is, Pentox is the best drug out there at this time for Peyronie's. Vitamin E is not even on the list. Both ALC and Potaba (the one FDA approved Peyronie's drug) run rings around Vitamin E in terms of effectiveness. Don't waste your time on Vitamin E. Its not going to help you significantly. - George
Quote from: sunsetsonfire on November 04, 2009, 07:30:21 PM
For me, pain and/or discomfort has never been an issue from day one, so a "pain" treatment is not necessary. Just one day in early July, Mr. Happy decided to bend at a 45 degree sharp angle, and I guess I lost about an inch of elasticity
No pain = a good sign. It doesn't mean that there is zero low level inflammation, but some members battle pain for many months, so you're in a better position than some in that regard.
Quote
Now for the questions:
I can see that Pentox seems to be a very popular recommendation as a blood thinner. As my urologist put me on high doses of Vitamin E (another blood thinner), would Pentox work better in that area?
If forced to make a choice between pentox and vitamin E I would absolutely, without hesitation go with Pentox every single time. I do think that the benefits of vitamin E for peyronie's sufferers are very limited or perhaps even nonexistent though some studies have used pentox and alpha-tocopherol (vit e). 'Perhaps' in combination with proven treatments (I feel confident in saying that pentox has been proven to be useful [click1 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19863517)] [click2 (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,772.0.html)] [click 3 (http://www.nature.com/nrurol/journal/v3/n2/full/ncpuro0409.html)]) it adds slightly to its effectiveness. That's debatable though.
Quote
Frequent erections are also highly recommended. I see l'arginine brought up a lot to help with nocturnal erections (when taken at night). I've also seen where someone brought up the usage of trazodone. Apparently this drug is normally prescribed to treat depression or sleeplessness when used in dosages of 100mg - 400mg, but has the side effect of nocturnal erections and can achieve that in dosages of 25mg at night... enough for the side effect but too low a dose to cause problems. Is one better than the other?
A few of the top urologists prescribe what is known as the PAV cocktail: Pentoxifylline, L-Arginine and Viagra . Pentox has been shown to be useful. L-arginine helps with erections, boosts nitric oxide production etc. Viagra is a phosphodiesterase type 5 inhibator, again increasing bloodflow to the penis. The PAV cocktail as a package, especially in combination with mechanical treatments (esp. the VED) help to keep the penis healthy. Assuming that the side effects are not as issue for you, perhaps Cialis is preferable to Viagra due to its increased halflife. I like to have supplements/drugs always working for me. There is some evidence that adding pycnogenol to l-arginine increases the strength of erections, though as your erections are already good, I probably wouldn't recommend adding it to the PAV approach.
I don't see l-arginine and trazodone as an either/or. If both have uses for you then take both. If however you have no problem obtaining night time eections, then there is probably no point in taking trazodone. I wouldn't apply that same measure to the PAV cocktail at this stage though (meaning that if you have no trouble with daytime erections, i'd still give the PAV cocktail a try for a good few months - preferably 6 months minimum).
Quote
Anything else that one can recommend for breaking up plaque or just general circulatory health? I should mention that improving my circulation might be a good idea overall as I've always felt my circulation was awful (I'm like a reptile, when the weather is even SLIGHTLY cold my hands and feet are like icebergs, even if I wear gloves and socks an inch thick).
I wonder if you have Raynauds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raynaud's_phenomenon). If so, all the more reason to make sure that you do everything you can to increase circulation. There are several avenues to go down regarding what helps and what doesn't. There are typically so many factors at play, that it's hard to seperate the useful from the useless at times. We do tend to go with the science though, not always peyronie's studies (since they are thin on the ground) but related issues and processes, to try to form a rounded and all encompassing approach to the condition. Again, for some no treatment appears to help, for others a combination of supplements and use of mechanical treatments (VED, traction) has really made all the diference. At worst, it IS the right approach to take, and it's all about doing what you can in a tough situation. If you don't get good results, there is always surgery once the condition is stable, and the success rate there is high.
In addition to the PAV cocktail I'd recommend:
Taurine and Niacin
Vitamin D
Acetyl-l-carnitine (ALC)
and possibly:
N Acetyl Cystein (NAC)
Biotin
Curcumin (dissolved in coconut oil)
Resveratrol
Potaba (PABA)
----
Potaba is quite an old treatment and can be tough for some people to tolerate (while others are fine). Since it's old there is probably a temptation to say that it's useful, but if you find that you can tolerate it, I don't see why it shouldn't be considered. A guy here was on the PAV cocktail with potabo replacing the pentox, and in combination with the VED he experienced some success.
Wow, thanks Newguy and George999. Very useful information indeed! I appreciate the time spent replying.
Looks like the Pentox is a "must", and will be my main push with my urologist. In another thread there are links to studies that look very favorably upon the Pentox as helping with Peyronies, and I will show those to him.
I didn't realize that the l'arginine was over the counter. Doing a google search I see where I can go around the corner tomorrow and pick some up from Walgreens. Conversely, the trapozone I mentioned seems to do basically the same thing (nocturnal erections), but would - like the Pentox - require a prescription. And since I'm already going to be pushing for the Pentox, I don't think I should have a list of things I want him to prescribe for me (unless he seems open to a lot of these things). I might be easier to push for one thing at a time to not overwhelm him, so I'll go with the l'arginine.
The potaba sounds interesting in that its description mentions its use for peyronies and how it softens plaque. But it would be important to go over my meds with the doc as it seems to have a tendency to interact with stuff.
Thanks for the advice!
Quote from: sunsetsonfire on November 05, 2009, 01:56:53 AM
The potaba sounds interesting in that its description mentions its use for peyronies and how it softens plaque. But it would be important to go over my meds with the doc as it seems to have a tendency to interact with stuff.
You would be able to easily get a prescription for Potaba from your doctor. It IS the FDA approved treatment for Peyronie's. It is also:
1) Far
MORE expensive than Pentox.
2) Far
MORE difficult to take than Pentox.
3) Far
MORE prone to
side effects than Pentox.
4) Far
MORE prone to
serious adverse reactions than Pentox.
5) Far
LESS effective than Pentox.
The choice should be obvious. Fight for Pentox.
- George
Quote from: Skjaldborg on October 26, 2009, 11:11:17 PMHeart disease is very common; Peyronie's is not.
First of all, how can you say that for sure? The statistics don't necessarily present a true picture of prevalance, because many men refuse to go to the doctor for anything, much less a big dent in their you-know-what.
Second, heart disease is just one manifestation of cardiovascular disease. Perhaps the semantics are getting confused here. If you look at everyone's favorite website, Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiovascular_disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiovascular_disease)) you will see some familiar issues: high levels of fibrinogen and inflammation, leading to buildup of plaque.
All I mean by the term "cardiovascular disease" is that something has gone wrong with the blood vessels. That doesn't have to happen everywhere in your body at once. Some people get lesions in their brain, some get them in their heart, others get them between the legs.
What I'm proposing is that Peyronie's is atherosclerosis of the penis. The descriptions of many people on this board, who refer to encircling fibrotic lesions that run circumferentially around the shaft, match up pretty closely with a diagram of the penile arteries that I posted on another thread. If you have many lesions it's possibly because the upstream vasculature is compromised.
The many metabolic markers for cardiovascular disease play into this theory: if you get an injury and you already have a compromised vasculature, and you don't have the raw materials needed for repairing blood vessels property, the wound will heal imperfectly as a big mass of fibrin and scar tissue. This is the body's version of duct tape.
Quote from: newguy on November 04, 2009, 08:47:18 PM
Quote from: sunsetsonfire on November 04, 2009, 07:30:21 PMAnything else that one can recommend for breaking up plaque or just general circulatory health? I should mention that improving my circulation might be a good idea overall as I've always felt my circulation was awful (I'm like a reptile, when the weather is even SLIGHTLY cold my hands and feet are like icebergs, even if I wear gloves and socks an inch thick).
I wonder if you have Raynauds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raynaud's_phenomenon). If so, all the more reason to make sure that you do everything you can to increase circulation.
Or it could be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral_vascular_disease (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripheral_vascular_disease), another type of cardiovascular disease. Coincidence?
Quote from: jackp on October 27, 2009, 02:06:27 PMIn my case I can directly relate coronary artery disease (CAD) to ED.
Quote from: newguy on November 04, 2009, 08:47:18 PMIf forced to make a choice between pentox and vitamin E I would absolutely, without hesitation go with Pentox every single time.
The good thing is that you don't have to decide between these two, you can take both (as long as you're taking full-spectrum vitamin E, anyway).
In this study, you can find more references to the efficacy of Pentox alone versus Pentox + vitamin E (see the Discussion section):
Complete healing of severe osteoradionecrosis with treatment combining pentoxifylline, tocopherol and clodronatehttp://bjr.birjournals.org/cgi/content/full/75/893/467 (http://bjr.birjournals.org/cgi/content/full/75/893/467)
Here's a finding that Vitamin E was more effective than Pentox alone; although they did have a synergistic effect, "pentoxifylline itself had limited efficacy, which was not statistically significant" (I wouldn't take my chances, personally):
Vitamin E protects against the development of radiation-induced pulmonary fibrosis in ratshttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17433970 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17433970)
And what do you know, here's an article on successful treatment of rodent heart disease with Pentox and Vitamin E:
Studies on Pentoxifylline and Tocopherol Combination for Radiation-Induced Heart Disease in Ratshttp://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0360301608038613 (http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0360301608038613)
Many of the Pentox studies are based on radiation-induced fibrosis... they're treating heart disease and fibrosis with the same oral agents... the results are the same... they couldn't be connected, could they?
The thread appears to have gone off track somewhat. Perhaps any future posts not relating specifically to ' l-arginine at bedtime' should be posted elsewhere. I've moved my latest post here to a new thread.
Alex - Maybe you can create a vitamin E thread in the oral treatments board, as there are your thoughts are very valid. Also, a circulation baed thread in the general section would be useful.
Quote from: alexk on November 05, 2009, 11:08:32 AM
[What I'm proposing is that Peyronie's is atherosclerosis of the penis. The descriptions of many people on this board, who refer to encircling fibrotic lesions that run circumferentially around the shaft, match up pretty closely with a diagram of the penile arteries that I posted on another thread. If you have many lesions it's possibly because the upstream vasculature is compromised.
Alex, You can propose this as many times as you like. But until you come up with some solid medical evidence for it beyond your own speculation, it is not going to carry a lot of weight with most of us around here. Where is the research that shows this to be the case? There IS research showing abnormal TGF-beta1 activity associated with Peyronie's via dissections. TGF-beta1 is not a circulatory factor, its an immune system factor. And Pentox just coincidentally inhibits TGF-beta1 which is why many doctors believe it is so effective. Where are the dissections showing vascular disease? Where is one published expert opinion showing vascular disease? There have been a lot of research studies on Peyronie's involving tissue analysis. Where is the hard evidence? - George
Quote from: alexk on November 05, 2009, 11:08:32 AM
Quote from: Skjaldborg on October 26, 2009, 11:11:17 PMHeart disease is very common; Peyronie's is not.
First of all, how can you say that for sure? The statistics don't necessarily present a true picture of prevalance, because many men refuse to go to the doctor for anything, much less a big dent in their you-know-what.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/heart-disease/DS01120:
The term "heart disease" is often used interchangeably with "cardiovascular disease" — a term that generally refers to conditions that involve narrowed or blocked blood vessels that can lead to a heart attack, chest pain (angina) or stroke. Other heart conditions, such as infections and conditions that affect your heart's muscle, valves or beating rhythm also are considered forms of heart disease.
Heart disease is the No. 1 worldwide killer of men and women, including in the United States. For example,
heart disease is responsible for 40 percent of all the deaths in the United States, more than all forms of cancer combined. Many forms of heart disease can be prevented or treated with healthy lifestyle choices and diet and exercise.
So, since one out of every three Americans will die from heart/cardiovascular disease, it is therefore very common. Regarding Peyronie's disease,
no studies have linked it to heart disease. If it were linked with heart disease, then t
housands of men would be diagnosed with Peyronie's symptoms. Even if many of those men were reluctant to speak up, you would still have many, many, many more men diagnosed with Peyronie's than the current estimate of 5%-9%. Furthermore, we do know that Peyronie's is linked to Dupuytren's contracture and Lederhose's disease. Therefore, if cardiovascular disease caused Peyronie's, we would see huge spikes in Dupuytren's and Lederhose's disease because men would report these.
And for emphasis: I have Peyronie's. I do NOT have cardiovascular disease. Cardiovascular disease does not even run in my family (all grandparents lived past 80, my maternal grandma lived to be 96). I am 30 years old, 5' 11'' tall, weigh 156 pounds, run 4-5 days a week and eat healthy. I have normal blood pressure and a very low resting heart rate. I have good erectile functioning, which is not common with severe heart disease. Plaque in the blood vessels is different from scar tissue in the tunica. The biological mechanisms that occur in each case are very different. Also, Peyronie's lesions are concentric circles in many cases because they follow the shape of the tunica, which is cylindrical. They don't "match up" to the blood vessel structure as you claim.
With all due respect alexk, unless you are an MD or a medical researcher with access to information that we are not privy to, I don't believe you have a good grasp of the facts.
-Skjald
Skjaldborg:
Well written, well presented information. I, too, considered the fact that heart disease and Pyronie's were related...to the point that I had an EBT (Heart Scan) last year. My EBT score was 39. That puts me at the low-end (2 percentile) for a heart event (I am 57, 180#, 6'-0", and like you I run 4 to 5 times a week).
My partner, OTO, has a EBT score of 600+ which is 93%+ on the heart event scale.
We are on the Healthy Heart Diet and are thankful to both the PDS Forum as well as the Track-Your-Plaque Forum.
I happen to think that, regardless of the relation between various plaques, it appears that lifestyle is key to healthy living: diet (food and supplements) and exercise.
JackieO
A couple of years old, but of interest.
QuoteAIMS
Oral L-arginine supplementation has been used in several studies to improve endothelium-dependent, nitric oxide (NO)-mediated vasodilation. L-Arginine treatment is hampered by extensive presystemic elimination due to intestinal arginase activity. In contrast, L-citrulline is readily absorbed and at least in part converted to L-arginine. The aim of our study was to assess this metabolic conversion and its subsequent pharmacodynamic effects.
METHODS
In a double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled cross-over study, 20 healthy volunteers received six different dosing regimes of placebo, citrulline, and arginine. Pharmacokinetic parameters (Cmax, Tmax, Cmin, AUC) were calculated after 1 week of oral supplementation. The ratio of plasma L-arginine over asymmetric dimethylarginine, an endogenous inhibitor of nitric oxide synthase (arginine/ADMA ratio), urinary cyclic guanosine monophosphate (cGMP) and nitrate excretion rates, and flow-mediated vasodilation (FMD) was measured to assess pharmacodynamic effects.
RESULTS
L-Citrulline dose-dependently increased AUC and Cmax of plasma L-arginine concentration more effectively than L-arginine (P < 0.01). The highest dose of citrulline (3 g bid) increased the Cmin of plasma L-arginine and improved the L-arginine/ADMA ratio from 186 ± 8 (baseline) to 278 ± 14 [P < 0.01, 95% confidence interval (CI) 66, 121]. Moreover, urinary nitrate and cGMP were increased from 92 ± 10 to 125 ± 15 µmol mmol−1 creatinine (P = 0.01, 95% CI 8, 58) and from 38 ± 3.3 to 50 ± 6.7 nmol mmol−1 creatinine (P = 0.04, 95% CI 0.4, 24), respectively. No treatment improved FMD over baseline. However, pooled analysis of all FMD data revealed a correlation between the increase of arginine/ADMA ratio and improvement of FMD.
CONCLUSION
Our data show for the first time that oral L-citrulline supplementation raises plasma L-arginine concentration and augments NO-dependent signalling in a dose-dependent manner.
Do you have a title or NHLBI reference?
Thanks, Tim
Quote from: Tim468 on November 15, 2009, 09:56:51 PM
Do you have a title or NHLBI reference?
Thanks, Tim
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=19984543
Plus I found some more interesting studies:
QuoteCardiovasc Drug Rev. 2006 Fall-Winter;24(3-4):275-90.
Therapeutic use of citrulline in cardiovascular disease.
L-citrulline is the natural precursor of L-arginine, substrate for nitric oxide synthase (NOS) in the production of NO. Supplemental administration L-arginine has been shown to be effective in improving NO production and cardiovascular function in cardiovascular diseases associated with endothelial dysfunction, such as hypertension, heart failure, atherosclerosis, diabetic vascular disease and ischemia-reperfusion injury, but the beneficial actions do not endure with chronic therapy. Substantial intestinal and hepatic metabolism of L-arginine to ornithine and urea by arginase makes oral delivery (or l-arginine) very ineffective. Additionally, all of these disease states as well as supplemental L-arginine enhance arginase expression and activity, thus reducing the effectiveness of L-arginine therapy. In contrast, L-citrulline is not metabolized in the intestine or liver and does not induce tissue arginase, but rather inhibits its activity. L-citrulline entering the kidney, vascular endothelium and other tissues can be readily converted to L-arginine, thus raising plasma and tissue levels of L-arginine and enhancing NO production. Supplemental L-citrulline has promise as a therapeutic adjunct in disease states associated with L-arginine deficiencies.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17214603
Quote
A study in humans has shown that oral administration of L-citrulline at 3.8 g/m2 body
surface, resulted in a 227% peak increase in plasma L-arginine levels at 4 h, compared
with a 90% peak increase with the same dose of L-arginine (43). Furthermore, the area
under the curve plot of L-arginine plasma concentration vs. time was 3 fold larger for L-
citrulline, and the elevation in L-arginine levels was more persistent following L-citrulline
administration. Thus, acute oral administration of L-citrulline appears to be considerably
more efficient raising plasma levels of L-arginine than L-arginine itself. Additionally, a
recent study in children and young adults showed that five oral doses of L-citrulline every
12 hours (1.9 g/m2/dose) for a total dose of 9.5 g/m2 resulted in 57 and 85% increases in
mean plasma levels of L-arginine and L-citrulline, respectively (78). - http://jtcs.ctsnetjournals.org/cgi/reprint/132/1/58.pdf
For the final study, I found the text above and ha to search for the actual study. The pdf is a fairly large document called "Nitric oxide precursors and congenital heart surgery" and it appears to backup the above claims.
so what does this mean with larginine for those of us who are not doctors and who dont fully understand that document - do we keep taking it or what? ive just ordered another 4 bottles of it
Quote from: Iceman on November 16, 2009, 04:29:55 AM
so what does this mean with larginine for those of us who are not doctors and who dont fully understand that document - do we keep taking it or what? ive just ordered another 4 bottles of it
I have loads of l-arginine too :). I'm just toying with the prospect that l-citrulline may be as, if not more useful at raising NO levels. By all means keep taking the l-arginine you have.
Well, the studies show that L-arginine will raise the levels of serum arginine too. However, the question is does it stimulate arginase, and by that collagen products and by-products. That seems to be the implication. Since L-Arginine has dual fates (arginase to collagen and proline; versus NO synthase to NO - a BIG difference in fate!), I think the more important factoid is that it "does not induce tissue arginase".
Right now I have about 500 gm of L-arginine sitting on my shelf.
Tim
Quote from: Tim468 on November 16, 2009, 09:59:06 PM
Well, the studies show that L-arginine will raise the levels of serum arginine too. However, the question is does it stimulate arginase, and by that collagen products and by-products. That seems to be the implication. Since L-Arginine has dual fates (arginase to collagen and proline; versus NO synthase to NO - a BIG difference in fate!), I think the more important factoid is that it "does not induce tissue arginase".
Right now I have about 500 gm of L-arginine sitting on my shelf.
Tim
Yes, perhaps the safer option would be to take l-citrulline. Either that or with l-arginine be sure to take Norvaline to block arginase activity.
QuoteL-Arginine Supplementation in Peripheral Arterial Disease
No Benefit and Possible Harm
Andrew M. Wilson, MBBS, PhD; Randall Harada, MD; Nandini Nair, MD, PhD; Naras Balasubramanian, PhD; John P. Cooke, MD, PhD From the Division of Cardiovascular Medicine (A.M.W., R.H., N.N., J.P.C.) and Department of Biostatistics (N.B.), Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, Calif.
Correspondence to John P. Cooke, MD, PhD, Division of Cardiovascular Medicine, Stanford University Medical Center, Falk Cardiovascular Research Institute, 300 Pasteur Dr, Stanford, CA 94305. E-mail john.cooke@stanford.edu
Received December 20, 2006; accepted May 3, 2007.
Background— L-Arginine is the precursor of endothelium-derived nitric oxide, an endogenous vasodilator. L-Arginine supplementation improves vascular reactivity and functional capacity in peripheral arterial disease (PAD) in small, short-term studies. We aimed to determine the effects of long-term administration of L-arginine on vascular reactivity and functional capacity in patients with PAD.
Methods and Results— The Nitric Oxide in Peripheral Arterial Insufficiency (NO-PAIN) study was a randomized clinical trial of oral L-arginine (3 g/d) versus placebo for 6 months in 133 subjects with intermittent claudication due to PAD in a single-center setting. The primary end point was the change at 6 months in the absolute claudication distance as assessed by the Skinner-Gardner treadmill protocol. L-Arginine supplementation significantly increased plasma L-arginine levels. However, measures of nitric oxide availability (including flow-mediated vasodilation, vascular compliance, plasma and urinary nitrogen oxides, and plasma citrulline formation) were reduced or not improved compared with placebo. Although absolute claudication distance improved in both L-arginine- and placebo-treated patients, the improvement in the L-arginine-treated group was significantly less than that in the placebo group (28.3% versus 11.5%; P=0.024).
Conclusions— In patients with PAD, long-term administration of L-arginine does not increase nitric oxide synthesis or improve vascular reactivity. Furthermore, the expected placebo effect observed in studies of functional capacity was attenuated in the L-arginine-treated group. As opposed to its short-term administration, long-term administration of L-arginine is not useful in patients with intermittent claudication and PAD.
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17592080
Hmm, this one isn't too promising.
QuoteBr J Nutr. 2008 Apr;99(4):855-62. Epub 2007 Oct 22.Click here to read Links
Dose-ranging effects of citrulline administration on plasma amino acids and hormonal patterns in healthy subjects: the Citrudose pharmacokinetic study.
Previous experimental studies have highlighted that citrulline (CIT) could be a promising pharmaconutrient. However, its pharmacokinetic characteristics and tolerance to loading have not been studied to date. The objective was to characterise the plasma kinetics of CIT in a multiple-dosing study design and to assess the effect of CIT intake on the concentrations of other plasma amino acids (AA). The effects of CIT loading on anabolic hormones were also determined. Eight fasting healthy males underwent four separate oral loading tests (2, 5, 10 or 15 g CIT) in random order. Blood was drawn ten times over an 8 h period for measurement of plasma AA, insulin and growth hormone (Gh). Urine samples were collected before CIT administration and over the next 24 h. None of the subjects experienced side effects whatever the CIT dose. Concerning AA, only CIT, ornithine (ORN) and arginine (ARG) plasma concentrations were affected (maximum concentration 146 (sem 8) to 303 (sem 11) micromol/l (ARG) and 81 (sem 4) to 179 (sem 10) micromol/l (ORN); time to reach maximum concentration 1.17 (sem 0.26) to 2.29 (sem 0.20) h (ARG) and 1.38 (sem 0.25) to 1.79 (sem 0.11) h (ORN) according to CIT dose). Even at high doses, urinary excretion of CIT remained low ( < 5 %). Plasma insulin and Gh were not affected by CIT administration. Short-term CIT administration is safe and well-tolerated. CIT is a potent precursor of ARG. However, at the highest doses, CIT accumulated in plasma while plasma ARG levels increased less than expected. This may be due to saturation of the renal conversion of CIT into ARG
- http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=1789836
This could start to give us an idea of potential dosing of l-citrulline.
I am currently on lexapro, a ssri for depression and anxiety. Would taking trazadone with this effect my medication because it is another anti depressent? What's better, trazadone or l-arginine for nocturnal errections? I have noticed that I don't have nocturnal erections when I obviously should =P So I'm trying to figure out what would be the best way to go, any help would be greatly appreciated!
Despise,
I would really recommend speaking with your prescribing physician or pharmacist. They are the ones who have the training and knowledge regarding mixing medications. You have to be very careful when it comes to prescription drugs.
Best,
Skjald
Quote from: Skjaldborg on December 21, 2009, 11:12:57 PM
Despise,
I would really recommend speaking with your prescribing physician or pharmacist. They are the ones who have the training and knowledge regarding mixing medications. You have to be very careful when it comes to prescription drugs.
Best,
Skjald
Ok thank you =] Do you know how big of a doze of trazadone I should get if its safe? I remember hearing you want to get only a small dose because the side effects of erections still occurs. I'm still not sure what has produced stronger errections for most people, trazadone or l-arginine, I think I remember hearing trazadone gave excellent benefits.
Hey guys,
I also asked this in a pentox thread so I am repeating this here. For those on L-ARG or on it before, how much did you guys pay for monthly prescriptions? Or how much did it cost over the 6 month span for you?
I would also like to ask here for those who could also comment the same thing about pentox I would greatly appreciate it as these are my two prescriptions which I have not purchased yet and just would like to ballpark how much I would need to pay for them. Thanks,
Bart
bart15,
L'Arginine is an over the counter supplement. I used to buy it at the local health store. I just checked an online suplements store and you can buy 2 bottles of 1000mg (qty 100 each) for $10. Just Google L'Arginine, it is easy to find.
Here is a list of various arginine products available from iHerb along with their prices:
L Arginine at iherb.com (http://www.iherb.com/Search?kw=Arginine)
- George
I have found a lot of l-arginine at good prices such as
jarrow formulas 1000mg 100 tablets for $9.87 from iherb.com
twin lab 500mg 100 tablets for $10.14 from puritan.com
Good N Natural 1000mg 50 tablets for $4.00 from luckyvitamin.com
and iwillisjr found
iherb.com qty 120 1000 mg for $16.18
bestvite.com qty 240 1000 mg $14.89
tnvitamins.com qty 180 (Buy 90 get 90 free) 1000 mg $13.95
puritan.com qty 200 (buy 100 get 100 free) 1000 mg $9.59
My question is what has the better potency? I'm debating if I should buy the jarrow forumals or the twin lab as of right now.
Puritan's Pride combines two of the body's most important building blocks into one easy-to-take supplement. Each two (2) capsules provide: L-Arginine (1000 mg.), L-Ornithine (500 mg.) and Chromium Picolinate (6.2 mcg.).
this is the one that's 2 for $9.99 will the l-ornithine and chromuim picolinate disrupt the nocturnal erections? does anyone know if these two are unhealthy in any way? ill do some research and post my findings.
I just upped my arginine to 5g in the morning, and 5g before bed. It has had a huge positive effect on erectile function.
Hi guys,
Sorry if this question has been covered before, I did try searching through the forum but couldn't really find anything definitive.
Basically, I've just bought some 'larginine and was wondering what people recommended in terms of dose/timings.
I was thinking 1g just before bed, does this sound reasonable?
Thanks for the help
Phil
https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,975.0.html
What is the recommended dosage for peyronies sufferers? I'm guessing that people here take more of it than normally is usual, but I was reading that it should be taken with Alpha Lipoic Acid to not cause increase of oxidative stress.
2 Grams is common.
I've never heard that about ALC causing oxidative stress. Having the skin/auto-immune disease vitiligo, that would be a bad thing. Can you turn me onto where you read that?
Nemo
Quote from: despise on February 12, 2010, 11:45:28 PM
What is the recommended dosage for peyronies sufferers? I'm guessing that people here take more of it than normally is usual, but I was reading that it should be taken with Alpha Lipoic Acid to not cause increase of oxidative stress.
The latest thought on that at imminst.org is that it's not needed if the dose of ALCAR isn't that high. There is also some concern that ALA permanently might inhibit the benefits of caloric restriction on life extension.
Quote from: Nemo on February 13, 2010, 01:29:39 PM
I've never heard that about ALC causing oxidative stress. Having the skin/auto-immune disease vitiligo, that would be a bad thing. Can you turn me onto where you read that?
Nemo
I can't find the exact website, but it is all over the net-just google it and You will find a lot of research on it.
Quote from: skunkworks on January 30, 2010, 06:37:11 PM
I just upped my arginine to 5g in the morning, and 5g before bed. It has had a huge positive effect on erectile function.
[/quote
I've been using 2g before bed, but it hasn't really been doing much for nocturnal erections. Would you recommend to just up the dosage? The only problem I have with that, is its kind of expensive. You don't take any Trazadone? I can't weigh out, which would be better for me. My psychiatrist doesn't want to prescribe it to me, due to the side effect of priapism, but its a whole lot cheaper than L-Arginine.
Despise, Everything I am seeing on a quick glance is indicating that ALC actually protects against oxidative stress AND that when combined with ALA that effect is enhanced. If you find ANYTHING that specifically states that ALC CAUSES oxidative stress, please, please, post the link. OK? - George
George, that's what I found too.
Nemo
Quote from: George999 on February 15, 2010, 12:09:31 AM
If you find ANYTHING that specifically states that ALC CAUSES oxidative stress, please, please, post the link. OK? - George
It seems to be dose dependent. See this post (http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=26055&hl=ALCAR), which links a PDF of an Ames lecture. Apparently the 1.5% (in water) acetyl-l-carnitine corresponds to 12 grams in a human, a huge amount.
It appears that the full text of the Ames study is online (http://www.pnas.org/content/99/4/1870.full).
In that paper, we read:
QuoteFor rats fed 1.5% (wt/vol) ALCAR, ascorbate levels in hepatocytes from both young and old rats were significantly lower than corresponding controls (not shown). Cosupplementation of LA with ALCAR negated both the age-related and ALCAR-induced decline in hepatocellular ascorbate concentrations.
and further on:
QuoteThus, the combination of ALCAR with LA not only reverses the age-related increase in oxidants, but also the additional oxidants induced by high doses of ALCAR. These results suggest that ALCAR+LA supplementation not only improves metabolic rate and physiological activity, but does so without causing a concomitant increase in oxidants.
So increased oxidation due to ALCAR was reversed by LA (lipoic acid, and in particular R-alpha lipoic acid). My take is that it is better not to take so much ALCAR that oxidative stress is induced such that you need LA to deal with it, particularly in light of the unknowns surrounding lipoic acid.
I'm in my mid forties, and I take a gram of ALCAR when I wake up. I love the energy and mood boost.
s&s
Edit: the discussion section (http://www.pnas.org/content/99/4/1870.full#sec-15) of the study is a nice read.
Quote from: slowandsteady on February 15, 2010, 02:14:20 PMMy take is that it is better not to take so much ALCAR that oxidative stress is induced such that you need LA to deal with it, particularly in light of the unknowns surrounding lipoic acid.
And just what would THOSE unknowns be about? As with ALCAR, everything I have ever read about ALA has been positive. - George
Quote from: George999 on February 15, 2010, 09:18:03 PMAnd just what would THOSE unknowns be about? As with ALCAR, everything I have ever read about ALA has been positive. - George
I think I may have been a bit scared off by it earlier by the study discussed on this thread (http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=23646), but after reading more about it I'm less worried.
I guess I missed something in this discussion. I know what ALC is, but what's ALCAR and ALA?
Fred
ALCAR is just an abbreviation for Acetyl L Carnitine (ALC), and ALA is Alpha Lipoic Acid.
not so expensive if you get a big thing of powder. Pills are stupid when you get to grams per day.
Just wanted to throw some news out there for the masses:
Quote from: Skjaldborg on November 05, 2009, 12:07:46 PM
Regarding Peyronie's disease, no studies have linked it to heart disease. If it were linked with heart disease, then thousands of men would be diagnosed with Peyronie's symptoms.
Erectile dysfunction is strong predictor of fatal heart ailments, study findshttp://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-sci-ed-heart16-2010mar16,0,672801,print.story
"'...because arteries in the penis are smaller, so atherosclerosis shows up there sooner,' perhaps three to four years before the onset of cardiovascular disease."
Some people don't accept that plaque is plaque, and that's fine. I believe that it is, but I'm not a medical university and can't run studies. But if you want to talk about plaque and amino acids, you should know about Linus Pauling's theory of cardiovascular disease. It focuses on increased availability of the amino acids lysine and proline, along with vitamin C, to repair damaged plaque in the arteries.
Did you guys know that arginine, an amino acid, competes with lysine for uptake by the body? Lysine is one of the major components of healthy collagen. Lysine also plays an important role in the formation of elastin from other amino acids. The tunica albuginea is about 5% elastin and the rest is mostly collagen. (Source: http://www.bumc.bu.edu/sexualmedicine/physicianinformation/male-genital-anatomy/)
It's true that arginine will increase your circulation, through the properties of nitric oxide. Too much nitric oxide can be damaging, however. And more blood doesn't necessarily equate with healing (though you won't have healing without improved circulation either). You need to have the right building blocks to regenerate damaged tissue. And the more arginine you take, the less lysine you will have to repair damaged collagen and elastin.
Alex, ED does not equal Peyronie's. Thats the bottom line. They are not the same thing. Huge numbers of guys have ED but don't have Peyronie's. ED is caused primarily by circulatory issues. Peyronie's is an autoimmune syndrome. There is a lot of evidence that men with ED have a higher risk of heart disease, there is no such correlation with Peyronie's. There IS a correlation between Peyronie's and Diabetes. As for Arginine, doctors prescribe it for Peyronie's. When you have an autoimmune process going on, no amount of collagen health is going to fix it. The problem is not a matter of collagen or elastin biology, its a matter of cytokines like TGF-beta1 attacking healthy tissues. I would suggest that rather than reading just general medicine stuff, you start reading some of the research on Peyronie's itself. None of the key Peyronie's researchers has indicated that Arginine is harmful to guys with Peyronie's. - George
Quote from: George999 on February 15, 2010, 09:18:03 PMAnd just what would THOSE unknowns be about? As with ALCAR, everything I have ever read about ALA has been positive.
Lipoic Acid Reduces the Activities of Biotin-Dependent Carboxylases in Rat Liver
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/127/9/1776
http://www.jarrow.com/productProfile.php?newsId=8
"Anyone likely to be severely biotin-deficient should take supplemental biotin if alpha lipoic acid is used regularly. Since biotin and alpha lipoic acid are chemically similar and are transported into cells by the same mechanism, elevated dietary alpha lipoic acid can interfere with biotin absorption. Additionally, alpha lipoic acid may decrease the efficacy of biotin's role in the function of certain enzymes."
Too much ALA will basically reduce or block the function of biotin, or vitamin B7, which plays important roles in cell growth, tissue regeneration, blood sugar control, the breakdown of protein into individual amino acids, and many other life-sustaining functions. Not something you want to mess around with unless you know your biotin status.
Quote from: George999 on March 16, 2010, 11:58:50 AM
Alex, ED does not equal Peyronie's. Thats the bottom line. They are not the same thing. Huge numbers of guys have ED but don't have Peyronie's. ED is caused primarily by circulatory issues. Peyronie's is an autoimmune syndrome. There is a lot of evidence that men with ED have a higher risk of heart disease, there is no such correlation with Peyronie's. There IS a correlation between Peyronie's and Diabetes. As for Arginine, doctors prescribe it for Peyronie's. When you have an autoimmune process going on, no amount of collagen health is going to fix it. The problem is not a matter of collagen or elastin biology, its a matter of cytokines like TGF-beta1 attacking healthy tissues. I would suggest that rather than reading just general medicine stuff, you start reading some of the research on Peyronie's itself. None of the key Peyronie's researchers has indicated that Arginine is harmful to guys with Peyronie's. - George
Peyronie's can equal ED however
Peyronie's does not EQUAL ED, but Peyronie's can cause ED, albeit through a completely different mechanism than that behind classic ED. In classic ED the TA is not involved, but the driving factor is circulatory. In the case of Peyronie's, ED may result from damage to the TA. These are associations and no more. These are not cases of one disease "equaling" another.
I would suggest that anyone afraid of supplement side effects simply not take supplements. ALL supplements have side effects. It has been demonstrated in recent research that Vitamin C can cause stomach cancer. Fish oil is loaded with all sorts of noxious contaminants and yet studies have repeatedly shown that people who take fish oil benefit from it. Everything assumes common sense. Anyone concerned about the ALA/Biotin issue can just take some biotin along with the ALA. In fact a lot of good quality ALA supplements include biotin. I take lots of both, so I'm not the least bit worried about it. I have also had all of my nutrient levels profiled via a blood test. The reality is that the benefits of ALA far outweigh the risks.
@alexk: you might want to give this post (http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=3707&view=findpost&p=41848) a read.
S&S, That is a really good link and a good discussion of the whole issue. The whole Lipoic Acid scene is just so complex. A lot of the lower tier vendors buy their LA from cheapo Chinese vendors and who knows what kind of contaminants they contain or what their true potency is. The whole supplement industry is largely unregulated. That is why it is a good idea for anyone using supplements to be a member of an organization like Consumer Labs so that they have access to independent testing. Also, by going through these independent tests line by line, one quickly figures out who are the vendors who are dependable and who are the ones who are unreliable in terms of delivering a quality product. There are brands that I just won't touch for that reason. Their products are loaded with contaminants and contain less than the listed amount of active ingredients.
Quote from: George999 on March 16, 2010, 11:58:50 AM
Alex, ED does not equal Peyronie's. Thats the bottom line. They are not the same thing. Huge numbers of guys have ED but don't have Peyronie's. ED is caused primarily by circulatory issues. Peyronie's is an autoimmune syndrome. There is a lot of evidence that men with ED have a higher risk of heart disease, there is no such correlation with Peyronie's. There IS a correlation between Peyronie's and Diabetes. As for Arginine, doctors prescribe it for Peyronie's. When you have an autoimmune process going on, no amount of collagen health is going to fix it. The problem is not a matter of collagen or elastin biology, its a matter of cytokines like TGF-beta1 attacking healthy tissues. I would suggest that rather than reading just general medicine stuff, you start reading some of the research on Peyronie's itself. None of the key Peyronie's researchers has indicated that Arginine is harmful to guys with Peyronie's. - George
I think you're very confused about these issues.
Quote from: George999 on March 16, 2010, 03:52:19 PM
Peyronie's does not EQUAL ED, but Peyronie's can cause ED, albeit through a completely different mechanism than that behind classic ED. In classic ED the TA is not involved, but the driving factor is circulatory. In the case of Peyronie's, ED may result from damage to the TA. These are associations and no more. These are not cases of one disease "equaling" another.
How do you know that ED doesn't lead to Peyronie's? The circulatory system is primarily made up of collagen and elastin, just like the tunica albuginea. Around here there's a lot of focus on improving circulation, via arginine, the VED, hyperthermia, or otherwise. And a lot of excitement over the sudden return of morning (or nocturnal) erections. I think the overlap between ED and Peyronies Disease is not purely associative.
It could be that a lack of healthy oxygenation causes fibrosis (which can be the case with other organs). It could happen subtly over a period of several years. In the case of older people with Peyronies Disease, it's something you wouldn't notice over a decade or two; if you did notice, you might accept it as a normal consequence of aging.
Perhaps the attempt to define Peyronies Disease, and search for its cause, is quixotic. In the end it may be that damage to the tunica is actually common to several diseases (diabetes, etc) and that Peyronies Disease is not a separate disease, but a consequence of something that is already present or will show up later in life (i.e. the association between ED/Peyronies Disease, and the link that I posted below regarding ED as an early warning sign of cardiovascular disease).
Quote from: alexk on March 28, 2010, 04:46:17 PM
but a consequence of something that is already present or will show up later in life (i.e. the association between ED/Peyronies Disease, and the link that I posted below regarding ED as an early warning sign of cardiovascular disease).
Or you get it out of the blue at age 29 like I did. I have no other health problems, very physically fit, rarely get sick and continue to get normal erections (no erectogenic drugs, ever). In fact, my functioning below the belt is just as it was at age 20 except or a brief period (1-2 days) after I was injured during sex and experiencing pain. I think Peyronie's due to trauma in young men and the slow, progressive form experienced by men over 50 are two different things. This disease sucks at any age but to think I could have had another 20 years of a normally-shaped penis (maybe some erectile issues, but at least no deformity), oh boy. I'm doing better at dealing with this disease but that thought just kills me every time.
-Skjald
Skjald,
I agree that there must be different ways that Peyronies Disease may manifest itself. But I wouldn't even associate it with age. Mine came on overnight as well and I'm in the over 50 category with no other symptoms prior.
I really believe that there are multiple ways that conditions appear that result in some form of ED, pain, and or curvature. And unfortunately I think we are getting to where we broadly categorize everyting under the term of Peyronies Disease. For me that explains why there is no "silver bullet" or even a given set of symptoms. And it seems that some are tyring to find that one common link for us all, and I don't believe it exists. I guess I'm suggesting that there are a number of penile issues discussed on this site, and we (an the medical profession in general) lump them under the banner of Peyronies Disease when in fact there could be yet undocumented penile diseases being discussed here.
The disappointing truth is that it is difficult enough to find a urologist that specializes broadly in Peyronies Disease, let alone any specialty focus for some of these different symptoms.
Quote from: alexk on March 28, 2010, 03:36:18 PM
I think you're very confused about these issues.
You can be 100% certain that he is not confused about these issues.
Quote from: lwillisjr on March 29, 2010, 08:13:04 PM
I really believe that there are multiple ways that conditions appear that result in some form of ED, pain, and or curvature.
I would suggest that all of these problems can be traced back to systemic inflammation and resulting anomalies in the healing process. BUT, there are all kinds of different things that can lead to short term or long term systemic inflammation. And that same systemic inflammation can cause other parallel problems from heart disease to cancer which are then referred to as "associations". All of this is additionally tangled with genetics and epigenetics and thus becomes extremely complex. Anyone suggesting simple pathology and simple answers is missing the boat by a mile. This stuff is so deep that it boggles the minds of the most brilliant researchers. But we must move beyond treating the visible disease toward dealing with the underlying inflammatory immune dysfuntion problem that is a breeding ground for all sorts of health issues.
Is it ok to take ALCAR with food?
Fred
I take about 2g twice per day. I remember reading somewhere that the recommended dose is 4-6g per day. I also remember reading that it should be taken on an empty stomach. I also remember reading that if the dose is increased past a certain point, it can actually increase TGFbeta levels...
But I don't actually remember where I read these things, or who wrote them, so I could be terribly wrong.
Just got mine from Puritan's Pride and the bottle recommends 1g per day preferably with meals. However, most of the articles, etc. I've read online recommends 2g per day for Peyronie's. One source said to take with a meal which contains "good" fats (omega 3). It's also recommended to not take it too late in the day as some people have insomnia as a side effect. So I'm taking 1 with breakfast along with my 1200 mg fish oil (the good fat), Vit. E and D3, then another with lunch along with another cap of fish oil. I've been taking it for 3 days now and no nausea or other side effects.
Fred
Hey Fred22. Acetyl-l-carnitine is water soluble. I've heard consistently that it should be taken on an empty stomach. It is stimulating, so taking it upon waking is a good idea. PMID 11446848 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11446848) used 1 g twice daily, and reported that
QuoteAcetyl-L-carnitine reduced penile curvature significantly, while tamoxifen did not; both drugs significantly reduced plaque size.
What I like about the 2g dosage is that it appears to be a good bet for general health as well, so I don't see any downsides.
s&s
Quote from: slowandsteady on May 17, 2010, 07:24:23 PM
Hey Fred22. Acetyl-l-carnitine is water soluble. I've heard consistently that it should be taken on an empty stomach. It is stimulating, so taking it upon waking is a good idea. PMID 11446848 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11446848) used 1 g twice daily, and reported that
QuoteAcetyl-L-carnitine reduced penile curvature significantly, while tamoxifen did not; both drugs significantly reduced plaque size.
What I like about the 2g dosage is that it appears to be a good bet for general health as well, so I don't see any downsides.
s&s
S&S- Are you saying that taking with food is ineffective. Mine says to take "preferably with a meal".
A thread on another forum, citing many studies and questioning the usefulness of l-arginine: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=124049701&page=3n Any thoughts?
l-arginine plus pycnogenol seems to be a different animal, judging by the ED study results.
Quote from: Fred22 on May 19, 2010, 06:11:11 PMS&S- Are you saying that taking with food is ineffective. Mine says to take "preferably with a meal".
I don't know if I'd go that far. If you google "acetyl-l-carnitine empty stomach", you'll see lots of results recommending this kind of dosing. Maybe everyone is quoting everyone else. ;)
Quote from: slowandsteady on May 19, 2010, 11:47:22 PM
l-arginine plus pycnogenol seems to be a different animal, judging by the ED study results.
Yes, there certainly does appear to be a level of synergy there. With the recent, and admittedly very rare, viagra hearing loss articles, this combo is perhaps a safer choice for men without very bad ED. It's heartening that it's effectiveness seems to increase over a period of months (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12851125).
Since that study, there have been others, with the name Prelox being used to describe the combination of treatments. The latest study indicates that improvements in erection quality were noted for six months: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20184576 . In this study, and this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17703218 testosterone levels in blood also increased. I wonder if the benefits are primarily due to that rather than any other factors?
Do you know where raesonably priced pycnogenol can be purchased? If a person wished to take, say, 40mg -120mg per day, it's one of the more expensive supplements.
One recommendation I read was to take it 2 minutes before waking. No doubt tongue in cheek.
Quote from: newguy on May 20, 2010, 12:02:38 AMDo you know where raesonably priced pycnogenol can be purchased? If a person wished to take, say, 40mg -120mg per day, it's one of the more expensive supplements.
It is a bit more expensive, since it only has one supplier and all of the studies were done with this formulation of pine bark extract. I get this 30 mg (http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Pycnogenol-30-mg-150-Capsules/760?at=0) product which provides 150 capsules per bottle. On a $/mg basis, this one (http://www.iherb.com/Healthy-Origins-Pycnogenol-100-mg-60-Veggie-Caps/4128?at=0) is a great value, but then you might want less than 100 mg dose.
Thanks for the reply. These prices do seem slighly more reasonable than those I've seen before. Only one of the stuidies I've looked at details the actual dosage (2x 40mg daily, increased to 3x 40mg daily). In this study erectile function did increase in line with that increase. However, the recent study also notes a clear improvement over the months, but doesn't state an increase in dose in the abstract. Therefore, it's perhaps reasonable to suggest that the length of time the combination is taken is more important than upping the dose.
I think I'll go for the Now Foods option and maybe two pycnogenol pills at different times during the day. It seems more sensible than taking 100mg. I am currently already taking l-arginine (as part of the PAV cocktail), so can quite easily add this to the routine. On a side note, powdered l-arginine tastes vile.
I'm interested in the mechanism behind l-arginine + pycnogenol combo. Aside from raising testosterone, I wonder what other factors are at play. I czn't find any studies on erectile dysfunction using pycnogenol alone.
Quote from: slowandsteady on May 19, 2010, 11:52:15 PM
Quote from: Fred22 on May 19, 2010, 06:11:11 PMS&S- Are you saying that taking with food is ineffective. Mine says to take "preferably with a meal".
I don't know if I'd go that far. If you google "acetyl-l-carnitine empty stomach", you'll see lots of results recommending this kind of dosing. Maybe everyone is quoting everyone else. ;)
OK...What are the obvious advantages of taking a supplement on an empty stomach? I skipped my ALC at breakfast (7:30) and I'm getting ready to take one now (10 AM). We'll see if I have ill effects (nausea, etc.)
Fred
Quote from: Fred22 on May 20, 2010, 11:02:23 AM
OK...What are the obvious advantages of taking a supplement on an empty stomach?
It's usually one of two things. In the case of some amino acids that compete against one another for absorption (like large neutral amino acids), you don't want your target amino being out-competed by other amino acids in food.
The other is when it is desirable to get a high peak plasma level of an item, which is best achieved on an empty stomach. When taken with food, the plasma curve over time is generally lower and more spread out. I'm guessing that this second case applies to ALC.
In "Kinetics, Pharmacokinetics, and Regulation of l-Carnitine and Acetyl-l-carnitine Metabolism" (link (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118766536/abstract)),
QuoteAt normal circulating l-carnitine concentrations, renal l-carnitine reabsorption is highly efficient (90-99% of filtered load; clearance, 1-3 mL/min), but displays saturation kinetics. Thus, as circulating l-carnitine concentration increases (as after high-dose intravenous or oral administration of l-carnitine), efficiency of reabsorption decreases and clearance increases, resulting in rapid decline of circulating l-carnitine concentration to baseline. Elimination kinetics for acetyl-l-carnitine are similar to those for l-carnitine.
The fact that ALC is so rapidly cleared implies that a brief high peak plasma level is needed for best effect.
The Peyronies Disease study with ALC used 1g/2x daily. Its possible that taking a gram (or two, depending on body mass) dose more than twice a day spread out over time.
s&s
Quote from: slowandsteady on May 20, 2010, 01:43:55 PM
Quote from: Fred22 on May 20, 2010, 11:02:23 AM
OK...What are the obvious advantages of taking a supplement on an empty stomach?
It's usually one of two things. In the case of some amino acids that compete against one another for absorption (like large neutral amino acids), you don't want your target amino being out-competed by other amino acids in food.
The other is when it is desirable to get a high peak plasma level of an item, which is best achieved on an empty stomach. When taken with food, the plasma curve over time is generally lower and more spread out. I'm guessing that this second case applies to ALC.
In "Kinetics, Pharmacokinetics, and Regulation of l-Carnitine and Acetyl-l-carnitine Metabolism" (link (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118766536/abstract)),
QuoteAt normal circulating l-carnitine concentrations, renal l-carnitine reabsorption is highly efficient (90-99% of filtered load; clearance, 1-3 mL/min), but displays saturation kinetics. Thus, as circulating l-carnitine concentration increases (as after high-dose intravenous or oral administration of l-carnitine), efficiency of reabsorption decreases and clearance increases, resulting in rapid decline of circulating l-carnitine concentration to baseline. Elimination kinetics for acetyl-l-carnitine are similar to those for l-carnitine.
The fact that ALC is so rapidly cleared implies that a brief high peak plasma level is needed for best effect.
The Peyronies Disease study with ALC used 1g/2x daily. Its possible that taking a gram (or two, depending on body mass) dose more than twice a day spread out over time.
s&s
Is 2 to 2 1/2 hours after a meal enough time?
I took the whole 2 grams about 1-hour before breakfast this morning. By noon, my urine weakly smelled like after eating asparagus, and it was brighter yellow than normal. When I am awake, I eat a small meal about every 3-hours, so the only time my stomach is empty is upon waking.
Quote from: BrooksBro on May 20, 2010, 07:39:33 PM
I took the whole 2 grams about 1-hour before breakfast this morning. By noon, my urine weakly smelled like after eating asparagus, and it was brighter yellow than normal. When I am awake, I eat a small meal about every 3-hours, so the only time my stomach is empty is upon waking.
Most sources say to take in divided doses. I wonder if it's just as effective to take the whole 2g at once. I've been Googling "how long after meals is stomach empty" and although there are various opinions (as always on the internet) the general consensus is between 2 and 3 hours. One dr. said if a med indicates to take on an empty stomach, 2 hours after a meal is fine. I suppose that would depend on the size of the meal and what you had. For example, a steak would take more time to digest that a bowl of cereal with fruit. I finished breakfast today about 7:50 and plan to take my first dose ALC at 10:30, then lunch at 12 (finish about 12:30) and 2nd dose of ALC at 3 or 4. I've read some articles that recommend not taking it after 3 PM as it could interfere with sleep, but I haven't noticed any stimulating effect. I took my last dose a 3 PM yesterday, went to bed about 9:30 and slept pretty normally for me. However, I do take Remeron, an antidepressant which has a sedative effect and 5 mg valium 30 min. to an hour before bedtime. If anyone else has information regarding correct dosing method of ALC please post.
Fred
I'm confused regarding the recommended dosage. The study involving 48 men conducted at Swedish Medical Center says the dosage was 1g per day. However, in another article which cites this study it stated that the dosage was 1g 2x per day. This was the study which compared tomoxifen with ALCAR. There is also an Italian study comparing ALCAR and tamoxifen in which the dosage was said to be 2g per day. I've been taking 2, but if 1g is as effective then I prefer taking the smaller dose. George says 2g is common but I just read Panic's post below and he says 4 to 6g per day. If I'm going to take this stuff I want to take it in the recommended amounts and at the proper time of day (between meals or with). Does anyone have definitive info on this? From what I've read the consensus seems to be 1g 2x per day between meals (I just checked with my pharmacist and she says "between meals" or "on an empty stomach" means 2 hours after a meal). BTW, where is everybody??
Fred
With the recent suggestions, I am now trying ALC 1g twice daily. First with my morning coffee, about 1 hour before breakfast. Again in mid-afternoon, about 2-hours after lunch.
This article was one of my sources:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2005/oct2005_cover_arteries_02.htm
PLC and Male Sexual Dysfunction
In a study of male sexual dysfunction, testosterone supplementation was compared to supplementation with a combination of oral PLC and acetyl-L-carnitine. Both the carnitine combination and testosterone improved the following penile functions: peak systolic velocity, end-diastolic velocity, resistive index, nocturnal penile tumescence, and the International Index of Erectile Function score.
The combination of 2 grams each of PLC and acetyl-L-carnitine daily was more effective than testosterone at improving nocturnal penile tumescence and the International Index of Erectile Function score, an important measure of erectile and sexual function. PLC and acetyl-L-carnitine thus appear to be safe, effective agents for managing male sexual dysfunction.
Here is the study it references, comparing 2 g PLC plus 2 g ALC daily to testosterone, and a placebo control group:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15072869
RESULTS: Testosterone and carnitines significantly improved the peak systolic velocity, end-diastolic velocity, resistive index, nocturnal penile tumescence, International Index of Erectile Function score, Depression Melancholia Scale score, and fatigue scale score. Carnitines proved significantly more active than testosterone in improving nocturnal penile tumescence and International Index of Erectile Function score. Testosterone significantly increased the prostate volume and free and total testosterone levels and significantly lowered serum luteinizing hormone; carnitines did not. No drug significantly modified prostate-specific antigen or prolactin.
I cannot find the reference that encouraged me to take 2 g ALC and 800 mg ALA daily. I just started with NSI brand ALA (200 mg) and ALC (500 mg) tablets. It was the only tablet I found in the 500mg & 200mg ratio.
I am unsure which supplement is the cause (I also resumed 250 mg slow release niacin 4x daily this week), but my heart rate was lower than normal during my Saturday morning run. At my usual running pace on a common route, my heart rate was about 5% lower. I will be happy if that is repeatable.
Otherwise, I have yet to notice any other effects, good or bad, from taking these supplements.
Although I cannot quantify it, this week I observed what I believe is some slight softening of my plaque. Even lightly squeezing it in one direction used to result in pain, and now it does not. That is encouraging. I cannot yet tell if there is any observable reduction in curvature.
Sounds like a good plan. Please keep posting results and so will I.
Fred
s&s - I ordered the 30mg option that you linked to as all is all it seems like the best choice. I think I'll take a tablet in the morning and at night, so that it's in my system pretty much all of the time. I do have some powdered arginine, but ordered some l-arginine + l-citrulline combined tablets.
Has anyone taking ALCAR noticed an increase in very vivid dreams? I have had weird dreams since starting the ALCAR, but could just be a coincidence.
Fred
I have never remembered my dreams upon waking till I started with my whole regimen of peyronie's supplements. I'm sure all dreams are weird but now I remember them. Really strange stuff.
Taking ALC has not produced these for me.
When I first started on 50 mg topical testosterone, and oral quecertin, I remembered dreaming (a rare event for me). I stopped taking the querecetin because it seemed to increase BPH. Since then, a one-time trial of a double dose of testosterone resulted in dreams, and I even slept until my alarm went off. My new prescription is for 100 mg per day, starting today. I am curious to see if the dreams return.
There are other forms of carnitine besides acetyl-l-carnitine. One of the is carnitine fumarate. I've been on ALC for years without any great impact on my Peyronies Disease. After a couple of days at 1g/2x daily, I'm finding carnitine fumarate seems to sooth Peyronies Disease symptoms for me more than ALC. I'm gong to give it a try for a few weeks and see if there is anything noteworthy.
Quote from: slowandsteady on May 29, 2010, 02:17:02 AM
There are other forms of carnitine besides acetyl-l-carnitine. One of the is carnitine fumarate. I've been on ALC for years without any great impact on my Peyronies Disease. After a couple of days at 1g/2x daily, I'm finding carnitine fumarate seems to sooth Peyronies Disease symptoms for me more than ALC. I'm gong to give it a try for a few weeks and see if there is anything noteworthy.
Very interesting! Keep us updated on this please. - George
Quote from: slowandsteady on May 29, 2010, 02:17:02 AM
There are other forms of carnitine besides acetyl-l-carnitine. One of the is carnitine fumarate. I've been on ALC for years without any great impact on my Peyronies Disease. After a couple of days at 1g/2x daily, I'm finding carnitine fumarate seems to sooth Peyronies Disease symptoms for me more than ALC. I'm gong to give it a try for a few weeks and see if there is anything noteworthy.
Please disregard this post. I got your answer by PM. ThanksFred
Quote from: slowandsteady on May 29, 2010, 02:17:02 AM
There are other forms of carnitine besides acetyl-l-carnitine. One of the is carnitine fumarate. I've been on ALC for years without any great impact on my Peyronies Disease. After a couple of days at 1g/2x daily, I'm finding carnitine fumarate seems to sooth Peyronies Disease symptoms for me more than ALC. I'm gong to give it a try for a few weeks and see if there is anything noteworthy.
S&S,
In what way did it "soothe" your symptoms? Could you be more specific? Thanks.
Fred
Quote from: Fred22 on June 03, 2010, 02:43:39 PM
S&S,
In what way did it "soothe" your symptoms? Could you be more specific? Thanks.
Fred
Just less discomfort during the day. Now that I think about it I have also started taking 800 mg/day in magnesium glycinate lately, which could have been confounding things.
Quote from: slowandsteady on June 03, 2010, 04:11:54 PM
Quote from: Fred22 on June 03, 2010, 02:43:39 PM
S&S,
In what way did it "soothe" your symptoms? Could you be more specific? Thanks.
Fred
Just less discomfort during the day. Now that I think about it I have also started taking 800 mg/day in magnesium glycinate lately, which could have been confounding things.
You mean it might be the magnesium that is responsible for your improvement rather than the new form of carnitine?
Quote from: Fred22 on June 04, 2010, 12:03:13 PMYou mean it might be the magnesium that is responsible for your improvement rather than the new form of carnitine?
Yep. I'm still a bit amazed by how many features of Peyronies Disease can be explained by magnesium deficiency, as I wrote here (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,1046.msg25970.html#msg25970).
Arginine alphaketoglutarate - is this any different than L-Arginine for the treatment of Peyronie's? I just took 5 grams and I am headed off to bed, but then I read this on Wikipedia. "A test tube study found that AAKG induces a significant increase in growth of human fibroblasts–cells with similarities to muscle fiber cells. This effect was dose-dependent, meaning that a more pronounced growth effect was noted with increasing levels of AAKG (but not with increasing levels of Arginine or alpha-ketoglutarate alone)."
Are these fibroblasts bad for Peyronie's, or do I have my concepts confused? Do I have the right powder, or do I need to get just l-arginine?
Not sure why you tried something that has not been tried before by others (or has it?).
If you get sick or worse, please let us know!
Tim
Tim, It has been used by people here and there are posts relating to it if you search for them. To me, its just another form of Arginine. This whole issue of Arginine supporting tissue growth has been discussed here at length on multiple occasions. At this point I am not using Arginine any more for various reasons. But I think the whole tissue growth/collagen thing is a canard. Peyronie's is not caused by excessive "collagen" or "tissue growth" but rather by inappropriate collagen/tissue growth. There is a huge difference. And I see no evidence that Arginine induces inappropriate tissue growth. Other than that, Arginine may cause negative side effects in some individuals just like other drugs or supplements. - George
http://health.msn.com/health-topics/slideshow.aspx?cp-documentid=100260577&imageindex=3&q=Eat+More+Walnuts
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16626982 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16626982)
Actually, there are pomegranate supplements out there that allow you to bypass the sugars.
And by the way, you might want to try it, its pretty awesomely effective, at least for me.
Since starting ALC I seem to be getting more morning erections (daily). Is this a normal effect of ALC? I know erections possibly help to improve Peyronie's symptoms, but my erections are painful (even after 4+ years of having this condition). However, if this may result in improvement (pain reduction) somewhere down the road, I'm willing to continue with the ALC.
What is the consensus on taking ALCAR and L-Arginine at the same time? I've heard not to take L family amino acids together because they fight for the same neurons or something like that...don't quote me on that. Anyways, are you guys generally picking between arginine and ALCAR or taking both?
Quote from: YoungOne on September 06, 2010, 10:28:26 PM
What is the consensus on taking ALCAR and L-Arginine at the same time? I've heard not to take L family amino acids together because they fight for the same neurons or something like that...don't quote me on that. Anyways, are you guys generally picking between arginine and ALCAR or taking both?
I've been taking both, it took several months for them to kick in. I don't know what the consensus is though.
Just an update, I have been using gPLC in place of L-Arginine for about a month now. For what its worth, I find that it promotes noticeably more blood flow than L-Arginine does. It really me helps counteract the firm/flaccid state.
SSmithe
I'm very interested in taking ALC for the extra blood flow and mental boost. But I'm worried it might interfere with my prolotherapy injections. Basically I can't take any anti-inflammatories because I want max inflammation from my prolo shots.
Is ALC an anti-inflammatory?
Nice, a nice big pump package always gives me a nice warm fuzzy feeling. I'm thinking about ALC, is this the same thing? Or are they completely different.... There's so many different variations of the same supplement it seems. Are you taking ALA with this as well?
It's always good to hear positive reports, and also good to see (from your sig) that you're taking the PAV cocktail.
If there's one supplement I've been a bit lax with it's acetyl-l-carnitine. Sometimes I take it, sometimes I skip it for weeks. I've never really been able to make my mind up as to whether or not it helps me. Of late though, I have got more into exercise (cardio and weights), so I figure it may be useful on that front too, so I've included it again on a daily basis. I'm going to start jotting down the supplements I'm to take each day and when, as beyond a point it starts to get difficult to keep track (not as though I'm taking that many supplements really).
Newguy - You didn't notice anything from taking the ALC? According to these reviews from iherb.com, there's alot of happy customers. I wonder if these reviews are legit though...
http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Acetyl-L-Carnitine-3-oz-85-g/373?at=1
I actually stopped the nightly 1/4 Viagra portion of the PAV cocktail about a month ago. Continuing with the Pentox though.
Yes I am taking ALC as well, but no it is not the same as the gPLC. Similar names, and I have no idea about the technical difference, but the gPLC says it is used to "support arterial blood flow." I take it as soon as I wake on an empty stomach and can definitely feel more blood down there for half the day or so.
Quote from: SSmithe on September 21, 2010, 10:03:03 PM
Just an update, I have been using gPLC in place of L-Arginine for about a month now. For what its worth, I find that it promotes noticeably more blood flow than L-Arginine does. It really me helps counteract the firm/flaccid state.
SSmithe
Where you getting your supply from SS? How much you taking?
Crashbandit,
Been taking 1 or 2 a day. That is all I really need. I got it from Vitacost.com. I have been using the Jarrow Formulas brand. Only one I have tried...
Nice, I'm getting:
http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-CarnitAll-600-90-Veggie-Caps/4330?at=0
and
http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-GPLC-GlycoCarn-60-Veggie-Caps/22674?at=0
How many mg of GPLC you taking a day? I hoping this really keeps up my blood flow and energy.
Quote from: newguy on September 24, 2010, 11:34:51 PM
If there's one supplement I've been a bit lax with it's acetyl-l-carnitine. Sometimes I take it, sometimes I skip it for weeks. I've never really been able to make my mind up as to whether or not it helps me. Of late though, I have got more into exercise (cardio and weights), so I figure it may be useful on that front too, so I've included it again on a daily basis. I'm going to start jotting down the supplements I'm to take each day and when, as beyond a point it starts to get difficult to keep track (not as though I'm taking that many supplements really).
Since I started taking ALC I've been getting daily early AM erections. May be just a coincidence but nevertheless it's happening....Fred
Quote from: crashbandit on September 25, 2010, 12:34:46 AM
Newguy - You didn't notice anything from taking the ALC? According to these reviews from iherb.com, there's alot of happy customers. I wonder if these reviews are legit though...
http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Acetyl-L-Carnitine-3-oz-85-g/373?at=1
I have no reason to disbelieve such reports. There may be an element of placebo effect to how people initially feel when they take something, but there are no doubt benefits to acetyl-l-carntine. I don't tend to 'feel' supplements as much as most people, with the exception of niacin (the flush variety) which is hard not to notice :). Possibly resveratrol when I took it too. It made me feel energetic.
I never could tolerate the weird feeling of standard niacin, not even taking aspirin before hand. I easily tolerate the time release OTC variety. I have read physicians who have written the flush-free is ineffective in achieving the desired results: "no flush, no effect." I take 250 mg w/ breakfast and lunch, and 2 with my last meal of the day. It was the only thing to boost my low HDL. W/O it, I am in upper 20s. With it, I approach 50.
Quote from: newguy on September 29, 2010, 03:47:16 PM
with the exception of niacin (the flush variety) which is hard not to notice :).
On the thread on L-arginine they were discussing this combo. I am going to have my husband start on this combo. I have taken pycnogenol on & off for many years. It has helped my bursitis. I in the past used it faithfully. I actually have some on hand. I used to distribute it through Kaire & made enough to pay for my supply. I currently use the product by flavay it is the same product & much cheaper. I learned of it from another friend that takes it also. It can be purchased @ www.flavay.com
Im currently looking to straigten/increase penis and read that acl and pcl are good to take.
Should I take both and how do they interact with hmg, hcg, zma arginine and other products as i am looking to raise testosterone too.
Thanks.
Must add im looking to reduce ma nboobs and fat loss by taking hot roxx supplement, fibre, and dim, rezv etc.
anybody can help? especially on the plc vs alc?
I think you'd be fine with ALC, rather than both. I'm not aware of any interactions, but obviously the more supplements you take the greater scope there is for interactions of one kind or another. Side effects from supplements haven't been a big issue of the forum as far as I know, but I do try to keep my treatment to a 'core' nowadays (pentox, coq10, vid d etc).
Ok thanks.
I asked because i read somewhere here that plc or gplc is better for the penis?
Also do u need to do exercises for these upplements to work? I try stretching manually but my penis has no give.
Also whats this pentox stuff everybody is rraving about
Does anyone believe ALC has any benefit as i'm going to consider dropping it after my current batch runs out?
There is an Italian study showing ALC to be beneficial and I personally found it very beneficial. Like other oral treatments, it doesn't work for everybody. But I am convinced that it works for a lot of guys. It is not as effective as Pentox or CoQ10 though. - George
If you don't think it's helping, I'd drop it. It's fairly expensive too. If after you drop it and notice more pain, then you an always jump back on it. Thats how I test to see it something is working. I was on a boat load of treatments but have cut it down to the best I find that works.
I take pentox, ubiquinol and krill oil, all 2x daily, sometimes all these 3x daily, all together with a big meal at breakfast, sometimes lunch and supper. I hate it when my treatments feel like work, so I keep it simple and easy to manage, because it's an everyday thing.
Quote from: George999 on March 04, 2011, 09:18:51 PM
There is an Italian study showing ALC to be beneficial and I personally found it very beneficial. Like other oral treatments, it doesn't work for everybody. But I am convinced that it works for a lot of guys. It is not as effective as Pentox or CoQ10 though. - George
Do you have any studies on CoQ10 and Peyronies?
Check your email. - George
The reason why I ask is because I read this somewhere in the congenital curve thread.
Propionyl-L-Carnitine (PLC) This is very hard to find. But is the ONE supplement (aside from HGW) that truly does help. I used it after first reading about it tests in a medical journal. You'll see many, many people here talking about Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALC), but ALC does virtually NOTHING compared to PLC to bring blood into the penis, which is what is needed. ALC will sharpen your mind and make you think more clearly (it's used for Alzheimer's patients and as a general supplement) but brings very little, if any, blood into the penis. PLC on the other hand, relaxes smooth muscle (e.g. muscle in your penis) and brings blood into it (I took 2g PLC daily, that is what was used in the study as well.) It brings blood into the penis even while flaccid so well that you will even feel a different 'hang' (more blood, heavier, bigger in flaccid state). THE NET EFFECT is that the blood sitting around and softening the scar tissue throughout the day, has a significant effect at making it more pliable. Then during erection, improvement in curvature can be seen. Not entirely at all, but enough to be hopeful and know PLC works. (For me, ~20-30 degree improvement, on a 90 banana-shaped curvature. Sorry for the graphic detail) Like a lot of things, this only works while you take it. And as a broke student, I ended up having to quit it b/c I couldn't afford an extra $30/month. (PLC is VERY hard to find. I found some at bulknutrition.com and capped it myself into 500mg capsules). Last, I looked, I haven't been able to find it. There is a new product called gPLC that I haven't tried yet, but may be worth a short. (gPLC is marketed to those with heart issues, as the heart is smooth muscle, just like the penis is as well. So you can see why it would work. Again, it works while you take it, but doesn't cure it and curvature will be back to normal when it is stopped. (Long term, I suspect that over many years this could permanently help curvature b/c it helps stretching into a longer state and over years (5-10+) cumulative effects would probably build up positively, I don't doubt.) Anyhow, PLC is great stuff.
So what is bettter plc or alc?
Is this better than PLC?
ONLY Acetyl L Carnitine has a research study demonstrating its effectiveness. That study is here -> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410x.2001.02241.x/full (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410x.2001.02241.x/full). If you know of a study involving PLC alone I would love to see it but I don't believe one exists. There is nothing wrong with trying PLC or gPLC. In my own case I used ALC very effectively and found gPLC useless, but that is just my own experience. The best place to start is really with those things that have research evidence behind them, not with what doctors *think* might work or what we *think* might work. Granted there is a study showing PLC to be effective IN COMBINATION with Verapamil which would lend credibility to benefit from PLC. That study is here -> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410X.2002.02738.x/full (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-410X.2002.02738.x/full). The BEST studies indicate the Pentoxifylline and CoQ10 are the best treatments. My personal experience substantiates that research. - George
I agree with George. Stick with pentox and coq10 as the primary course of oral therapy. Both forms of carnitine may have some benefit, but the study for ALC is clearly not in the same league as the pentox and coq10 studies. Also, there is some new research that indicates cialis as being useful in the resolution of scar tissue, so that might be something worth exploring as well.
Ok,
Should I first find out if it is peyronies or just a curve?
My foreskin has scar tisue as one bit never expands, could this help with that?
Are these two supplements heavy on the system though?
Oh and im only 26 am i too young to take these?
I would suggest you determine if it is Peyronies or a congenital curve. The treatments are different. Meds won't help any with a congenital curve.
getbiguk:
Ok..If you've always had the curve, then it is a congenital curvature. In that case, NONE of these meds or supplements will do anything for it. The only thing that can be done is surgery to correct it. I have heard of men using traction devices to try to correct a congenital curve, but never heard of anyone having success.
If the curve came out of nowhere, or from trauma, it could be Peyronies Disease or a one time scar, but the only way to know is to see a specialist. If this is the case, then pentox, coq10, and any form of carnitine are perfectly fine to take for any age. I take pentox and coq10 and I'm only 27. Some men on here who are taking cialis were originally taking it to help ED if they had it, but some recent research shows it may be benificial for scarring in the penis, so it may or may not be safe to take at a low dose if you do not have ED. You need a prescription from a doctor for both pentox and cialis, so it's up to the doctor you see on whether or not you can take it.
If you have scar tissue on your foreskin, all of these meds have not been tested in terms of scarring on skin tissue, only tunica inside the penis. It may be something that can be fixed by laser surgery on the skin. I have seen some guys have scarring on their foreskin that was so bad, a circumcision was required. Bottom line though, go to a specialist before you spend money on anything.
-chefcasey
The topic you are posting under is "Oral Treatments for Peyronie's Disease". If you post here, we will assume you have been diagnosed with Peyronie's. If you have congenital curve, you should not even be posting here. If you don't know what you have, you should get a professional medical diagnoses like others here are rightly advising you to do. Its really a big waste of time for all of us including you if you post here without any basis in reality for doing so. We don't mind providing the same answers over and over to people who actually know what their problem is, but why post here and waste all of our time when you really don't know what's going on? - George
thanks for the info
Sucks that if its natural you are screwed. Mine has gotten worse since I was younger but it wasnt straight but it feels like the top half has no give or growth while the bottom looks developed. Thats why im also thinking of penis lenghting. hoping the cutting the top will balance out the curve by drooping the top a bit.
BTW i want to add that i had blood test done and vitamin d is very low and also testosterone is low. can this have n effect on curves even if natural and maybe penis length? feels shorter by about a centimeter
If your vitamin D is "very low" that can have all kinds of bad effects on your body, including aggravating testosterone. Number one on my list at this point if I were you would be to work on fixing what you know is haywire which is your vitamin D levels. Get them up over 50ng/ml AND find out how much Vitamin D you need to take to keep them there. This will help you in all sorts of ways some of which you would not even suspect. I would give that some time and THEN relook at testosterone if you need to. I would also see a urologist and make sure that your penis problem is congenital. If it is, I wouldn't worry about it all that much. Upward bends ARE common and not even considered congenital, simply normal. Additionally, it is quite normal for penises to change there shape a bit over time, just like the rest of your body components. You could try traction, but use caution or you could end up with a worse situation. On the other hand, if there is a Peyronie's factor, you need to know that so you can treat it appropriately. - George
heres the link it has 4 different types of l arginie in it http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mt/nanox9hardcore.html I bought a bottle of this stuff at my local rite aid store for 80 dollars for 180 caplets i takes 4 caplets twice a day and i really feel blood exploding thourgh my body probably due to the nitric oxide effect this supplement is supposed to have but my doctor told me to take L arginine along with pentoxyfylline 400 mg 3 times a day and im seeing some results ill update you as i progress further with my treatment . And iam 19 years old too
I'm glad to hear that you're having positive results. It definitely is a big plus for peyronie's sufferers to maintain strong erections, and l-arginine really does helps some men in this regard. That's why it is part of the PAV cocktail (pentox, l-arginine, viagra). Keep us updated on your progress!
What dosage of l-arginine is recommended?
jack thats some serious dough ur shellin out 80.00 per roughly 22 days
Before I developed Peyronies Disease I used to lift weights and took that supplement. It's powerful and it does work but I broke out in acne and had to quit taking it.
Quote from: jackwert on May 02, 2011, 10:24:52 AM
heres the link it has 4 different types of l arginie in it http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/mt/nanox9hardcore.html I bought a bottle of this stuff at my local rite aid store for 80 dollars for 180 caplets i takes 4 caplets twice a day and i really feel blood exploding thourgh my body probably due to the nitric oxide effect this supplement is supposed to have but my doctor told me to take L arginine along with pentoxyfylline 400 mg 3 times a day and im seeing some results ill update you as i progress further with my treatment . And iam 19 years old too
What results are you seeing? Reduction in pain, reduction in deformity, etc?
Thank you, George and others,
I just read an article about L-Citrulline.
http://www.smart-publications.com/articles/powerful-amino-acid-l-citrulline-proven-to-naturally-restore-erectile-funct/
I know that L-Arginine seems to be a supplement of choice on the forum and I am currently taking 2000mg/day of it. Is there a reason no one has mentioned L-Citrulline as a supplement? The article dictates that it is a far more efficient means of raising NO levels and promoting bloodflow to the penis. I would think this would help us in our efforts.
Anthony
If you go back through the threads you will find the L-Citrulline has been discussed at length here in the past. It is yet another way of raising NO levels. Whether it is a better way or not is a matter of discussion. High nitrate intake is yet another way of reaching the same end and you can, of course, stack these various methods as well. People argue whether which is better, but in reality you have to find out what works for you. - George
For those looking for a "better" arginine formula, there is a supplement out there that will greater increase the benefits of arginine. Some years back many of us were achieving these benefits with a product known as SAN VasoFlow. VasoFlow was an Arginine supplement with enhancers that was very effective for people who are Arginine resistant, which probably includes a large share of Peyronie's patients. Then SAN discontinued VasoFlow and many of us were left up the creek without a paddle. Well, GOOD NEWS! Now there is a new product that can be used WITH Arginine which aims to achieve the same results when used in conjunction with an Arginine product. Here is the link -> http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/controlled-labs/white-blood-2.html;jsessionid=958F629FCD25ABC7FBF7D07898EB1F53 (http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/controlled-labs/white-blood-2.html;jsessionid=958F629FCD25ABC7FBF7D07898EB1F53)
http://www.controlledlabs.com/product_info.php?products_id=73 (http://www.controlledlabs.com/product_info.php?products_id=73)
- George
George
I get by click on the link to White Blood 2, Stim-Free Nitric Oxide Support Formula. Arginine is not mentioned as a part of the product, maybe is a part of the formula? Coenzyme Q10 is there, but don't states how much.
In addition, in the "Warnings" that are many is stated:
QuoteThis product is intended for adults 18-50 years of age only.
It means that for many of us (I am 64) is not adviced.
James
James,
1) This product is intended to be used WITH Arginine. It is an Arginine enhancer. The problem also is that a lot of people DON'T need Arginine, rather they need something to make Arginine work properly in their body. Insulin wreaks havoc on Arginine metabolism. That is one of the major components of metabolic syndrome which does not necessarily involve diabetes itself. This product is intended to circumvent that problem by short circuiting some of its pathways. For years I took the VasoFlow product which was the same formula combined with Arginine and found it very helpful. I now have this product on order and will start taking it as soon as it arrives.
2) I will be 65 in November myself and that will not stop me from taking this product. The label also warns not to take this product if you have hypertension. That will also not stop me from taking this product. The only reason those warnings are on these products is because they are afraid of the FDA and lawsuits. People run into problems with products like this only because they don't use common sense. People who are hypertensive, for example, use things like this and don't do the obvious, like carefully checking their blood pressure along the way to make sure nothing is going wrong (because it CAN significantly lower blood pressure in some people). Also people notoriously DO NOT even follow dosing instructions on the label. AND, people don't stop taking the supplement EVEN if they run into problems with obvious side effects. So, while I wouldn't advise anyone, including you, to ignore the advice on the label, I have taken this formula before for years without problems and therefore feel perfectly safe pursuing it again. BUT, I will also continue my battle against serum glucose and insulin, since they are huge underlying factors in the whole of the problem. - George
Quote from: james1947 on May 05, 2012, 07:24:03 PM
George
I get by click on the link to White Blood 2, Stim-Free Nitric Oxide Support Formula. Arginine is not mentioned as a part of the product, maybe is a part of the formula? Coenzyme Q10 is there, but don't states how much.
In addition, in the "Warnings" that are many is stated:
QuoteThis product is intended for adults 18-50 years of age only.
It means that for many of us (I am 64) is not adviced.
James
George
Thank you for the clarification.
My knowledge in medicine was very limited until the age of 61 when my Peyronie's problems begin and same time my blood problems begone (high blood counts). Luckily my blood pressure in in the 120/80 - 110/70 range with hearth beat at 60 - 65.
Because my allergic reactions and also I will be 65 at Christmass I am very cautious with medications, supplements etc'
James
And I am certainly not saying one should not be careful. For example, in a situation like this, where the bottle says 6 pills a day, I will often start with one and CAREFULLY monitor it's effects and, only then, GRADUALLY increase the dose, all the while watching out for any problems. It PAYS big time to be cautious. - George
This is my approach even with doctors prescribed medications, I had already very bad experience with them (doctors).
For example in 1987 I had a surgery on my right leg, they install a plate with screws and I was given some medication that I don't remember the name. Each time I was trying to stand up, my head was turning and I lost stability. The doctors even don't listen to my complains. I stop taking it, next day I was OK.
James
Yup, often the doctors don't even seem to pay attention to the warning labels. Happens here in the US too. - George
White Blood 2 - $ 720.00 a year is hefty price considering l-arginine is not even an ingredient.
Quote from: Hawk on May 07, 2012, 03:45:17 PM
White Blood 2 - $ 720.00 a year is hefty price considering l-arginine is not even an ingredient.
Actually I think there is a certain price for each bottle of pills. And the advised number of pills per day noted on the bottle is for sports use, NOT Peyronie's use. I am certainly planning to use far less of the product than what is advised for sports use. But I KNOW the pharmacology of the ingredients and they ARE worth the money. They hugely enhance the effect of Arginine for anyone who is Arginine resistant and I am VERY Arginine resistant. Arginine is supposed to lower BP by dilating the vascular system. In my case, Arginine actually raises my BP UNLESS I use the ingredients in White Blood 2. I know that because that is how it worked out with VasoFlow which included roughly the same ingredients. So to anyone who is getting good mileage out of Arginine alone, I would say forget about White Blood 2. But for anyone not having benefit from Arginine alone, I would say give WB2 a try and see if its effect is worth the cost. Again, I believe a dose far lower than the sports use level indicated on the label would be effective for Peyronie's use. I know that SAN VasoFlow was supposed to be six pills at a time or something like that and I usually would take just one or two. - George
I just ordered Omega 3 fish oil. at puritans pride..
it says 1200 mg capsules containing 318mg of EPA and 204 mg of DHA
Now I read you should consume about 1 gram (1000 mg) of EPA and DHA omega-3 fatty acids daily for heart disease and 2 to 4 grams (2000 to 4000 mg) of EPA and DHA omega-3 fatty acids for High Triglycerides. (http://heart-disease.emedtv.com/fish-oil/fish-oil-dosage.html)
That would mean at least 10 of the softgels I bought per day-
Isn't that a little high? ? ? ?
Its not a question of price, they are pretty cheap, buy 2 get 5 at puritans pride. ( so its like $20 for 5x150 softgels)
Its more a question of efficiancy. I was wondering what a good dosage would be with Peyronies Disease. (I asked my doctor and he was honest: no idea)
Luc
For the moment I am taking 3 per day (with meals) that gives me: 954 mg of EPA and 612mg of DHA
Dint know about the dosage. But as soon as i get back to normal I'm going to start taking allot of OTC vitams etc to help with heart health and blood flow. I dont really think it will help me at my stage but I'm going to keep this from happening again. Some one told me that certain types of fish oils will seep through your body and give a fishy smell to your sweat etc so watch for that.
When it comes to Fish oils quality is extreamly important.
You want to make sure the MFG is concerned with contamination issuess. i.e. mercury, cadmium, lead, etc.
Also with oils they can go rancid if not handled and packaged propperly.
For this reason you don't want to buy a year supply in advance. It is also a good idea to keep them in the refrigeratior after the bottle is opened.
I have been using Nordic Naturals and Carlsons. At times I have used New Chapter. All of these companies have a good reputation for quality.
If you take with food I have never heard of a problem with smelling fishy.
Something to keep in mind , Omega 3's are anti-inflamatory
While Omega-6's are inflamatory. You want to make sure you supplement much more 3's than 6's.
thanks for the info..
I'm using this one..
http://www.puritan.com/super-sale-829/double-strength-omega-3-fish-oil-1200-mg-017131?scid=3763&cm_mmc=GoogleProducts-_-Super%20Sale-_-double-strength-omega-3-fish-oil-1200-mg-_-017131
it says nothing about omega 6.. :-\
Luc
1) Nordic Naturals has an especially good reputation.
2) Krill Oil does not have the heavy metal contamination issues that fish oil has, but tends to be more expensive, though supposedly more potent.
3) Fish Oils do NOT contain Omega 6's. Omega 6's are found in vegetable oils.
- George
Thank you george, I think I will switch to nordic naturals!
Luciano,
For almost any intended purpose you want at least 800mg of Omega 3 from your fish or krill oil. You don't need Omega 6's and 9's especially if you eat an American or Western diet, which is already heavy in those.
Quote from: ComeBacKid on May 22, 2012, 01:48:18 AM
Luciano,
For almost any intended purpose you want at least 800mg of Omega 3 from your fish or krill oil. You don't need Omega 6's and 9's especially if you eat an American or Western diet, which is already heavy in those.
Thanks... well the info on the pack says:
Ester Omega™ Fish Oil 1,200mg (1.2 g) ***
provides 600mg of Total Omega-3 Fatty Acids† ***
comprising of:
EPA (Eicosapentaenoic Acid) 318mg ***
DHA (Docosahexaenoic Acid) 204mg ***
Other Fatty Acids ***
**Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet.
Directions: For adults, take one (1) softgel two times daily, preferably with meals. To maximize your intake of Omega-3 Oils, take up to 3 softgels daily.
So I am taking 3x1 daily
Luc
I just wonder that according to wikipedia L-Arginine has a function of strenghtening the immune system and healing wounds...
QuoteArginine plays an important role in cell division, the healing of wounds, removing ammonia from the body, immune function, and the release of hormones.
and as we know, peyronies fibrosis is rather auto-immune response so isn't it kind of a immune stimulator?
also it says that it helps with ED when taken with two other elements...how is it actually, what do you think?
QuoteArginine taken in combination with proanthocyanidins[9] or yohimbine,[10] has also been used as a treatment for erectile dysfunction.
Thank you :)
well yohimbine is like most natural anti-ed stuff:
I tried it, but didnt notice a difference.
Most bodybuilders take L-Arginine just before training. They say they can do a more efficient work-out with it.
Usually for ED, dose is much lower than for bodybuilding.
Actually I found an article on how L-Arginine works:
QuoteLike the drug sildenafil citrate (Viagra), L-arginine is thought to enhance the action of nitric oxide and—in turn—relax the muscles surrounding blood vessels supplying the penis. As a result, blood vessels in the penis dilate, increasing blood flow, which may help maintain an erection. The difference in how they work is that Viagra blocks an enzyme called PDE5, which destroys nitric oxide, and L-arginine is used to make nitric oxide. Unlike Viagra, L-arginine is taken on a daily basis for erectile dysfunction.
here the whole article:
http://altmedicine.about.com/cs/herbsvitaminsad/a/Arginine.htm
Luc
I will add one thing I have learned from George:
QuoteIn NORMAL situations, Arginine relaxes blood vessels and increases circulation, but for people with any amount of insulin resistance, Arginine metabolic pathways can be compromised, and the actual effect can be a reduction of blood circulation rather than in increase. That is why I use Arginine enhancement supplements like Cnidium Monnieri and L-Norvaline instead of Arginine.
I believe that L-Arginine works for ED because it is enhancing blood circulation.
James
The more I have read and studied over the past few months I tend to agree with Comeback Kids comments about you don't need to supplement with omega 6's and 9's.
You get plenty from meat, nuts and seeds. Olive oil is high in 9's. most other vegtable oils are high in 6's. Many holistic nutritionist are now saying to avoid vegtable oils. They are too high in 6's which are inflamatory. They are also the source of many trans fats. Most Beef in the SAD has a very high omega 6:3 ratio which is not desirable. I have heard as high as 20:1. If you get your beef from grass fed or pastured cows (as opposed to cattle fed engineered grains) the ratio is much healthier, more around 3:1.
Check out the Weston Price Foundation for more researched based info on this topic.
My urologist has me on Pentox 400mg (3x/day), Cialis 5mg (1x/day) and L-Arginine, but I didn't get a specific amount to take. I have 500mg capsules, and I've been taking two a day. Is that enough? I'm also not currently taking the Cialis, because it seems to cause very firm erections VERY easily and at inappropriate times. I don't have ED, and I get frequent erections without Cialis. What is the main purpose of the Cialis in the treatment of Peyronies Disease? How does it help with Peyronies Disease for patients without ED?
I'm also on Vitamin D, for a deficiency in that. Any other vitamins or herbs recommended? I'm trying to heal this bad boy. I'm only age 37 and feel I should use my age and healing ability while I still have it at a younger age, despite being afflicted with this so young.
Thanks guys!
James
L-Arginine is taken by body builders up to 5000mg per day.
For Peyronies any number between 1000mg to 2000mg will do the job.
I am taking 2000mg in the evening before dinner around 5:30 PM
Regarding low dose Cialis, suppose to help nocturnal and morning erections, but also to soften the scar tissue.
I am proposing you to reduce the daily intake to 2.5mg (cut the 5mg in two) and see the results
To improve blood circulation I am taking Ubiquinol 2*100mg per day but because of your age bellow 40, you may take CoQ10 that is much cheapper.
James
Hello
In my case i take 2 grams of L-Arginine 2 hours before bed.
I don't take cialis, but i add with L-Arginine 80mg of Pycnogenol and i can say since i added pycnogenol i saw a real change with noctural erections.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12851125
I recommend you to add vitamin k2 with your vitamin D. Very good against the calcium deposit on soft tissues.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/03/26/the-delicate-dance-between-vitamins-d-and-k.aspx
Laurent
I've taken various amounts at various times of the day but recently I've been taking 2 grams (I use 2 of the 1000mg Puritans Pride tablets) of L-Arginine along with 60mg of Pycnogenol (I read somewhere to take about 50mg and what I ended up buying was in 30mg form, so I take two of those) right before I go to sleep at night, and that has worked very well for me. I think as long as I continue taking L-Arginine to specifically treat Peyronie's I will use that schedule.
Also, I've had trouble with cold sores in the past, so I try to offset the Arginine with Lysine. I haven't settled on the right amount of that to take every day though.
Here is a product I ran across at GNC. http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2651528 Has anyone tried this or have any info on it. It is clearly pricey. I use plain L-argentine but am looking for something a little better since San Vasoflow is no longer available.
Quote from: Hawk on July 30, 2012, 01:05:22 PM
Here is a product I ran across at GNC. http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2651528 Has anyone tried this or have any info on it. It is clearly pricey. I use plain L-argentine but am looking for something a little better since San Vasoflow is no longer available.
Quote from: Hawk on July 30, 2012, 01:05:22 PM
Here is a product I ran across at GNC. http://www.gnc.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2651528 Has anyone tried this or have any info on it. It is clearly pricey.
It is
much cheaper on Amazon. $51.43 for 300 caps versus $84.99 ($67.99 with "Gold Card") for 180 caps at GNC.
Swolf, Thanks for the info. I ordered from Amazon. I never considered GNC great or price but I am shocked that even their gold card price was beaten that badly.
PS: I also ordered some White Blood from Bodybuilder.com to compare products.
Hi Guys....Has anyone tried AAKG? Its L arginine but supported with Alpha Keto Glutarate
Im having a real hard time finding the normal L-arginine here in Italy and this is what my local Gym highly recommends. Its made in Eastern Europe though and right away my alarm signals went off. I researched the product and company online and it seems to be legit...however its scary to take stuff from eastern Europe. Any experiences with this?
I read on this forum that sugar is really bad for peyronies and this stuff well....it seems to rase the blood sugar levels.
Please let me know anyone.
Thanks
J
Justo
Personally I will not advice you to use the AAKG. The body builders are using many supplements containing sugar because the extra energy bust they get (for short time) and is really not the best for no one, not just for Peyronies sufferers.
Regarding products from Eastern Europe, very much depends on the country and if it was approved to use in Italy by some governmental organization like the FDA in the US.
James
Yeah i thought so.....I dont know why i let this guy talk me into it. Desperation i guess. I tried one actually and it worked fine. Nothing horrible happened and my nocternal eractions were strong! But in the long term this sugar crap....probably no good.
Justo
After reading that it helps you, maybe you can take it if:
1. You are monitoring periodically your blood sugar not to be higher than let say bellow 100 as George say or not much higher.
2. Reduce as much as you can any additional sugar intake.
James
Sometimes the Cialis for me causes a lot of discomfort (not really peyronie's pain, but instead very hard, unnatural feeling erections and not always at appropriate times... e.g. a slight touch from urinating setting off the launch sequence and having to wait in the bathroom for it to subside or attempt to walk around like that, which isn't easy), so I backed off to 1/2 a pill (5mg/2 = 2.5mg) every 1 or 2 days instead of 5mg daily. Sometimes I skip it for a few days, other times I feel like it's good and I do like that it exercises the penis tissue with erections while sleeping.
I often find that getting an erection helps the pain. I have a varying, but often tremendous amount of flaccid pain that is minimized greatly with erection. The only time I have pain during sex is if I'm not careful or manual hand stimulation that's too rough.
I've had VERY strong flaccid pain for the past 48 hours and there's no rhyme or reason to it. I am praying the Pentiox/L-Arg/Cialis will help my body to heal and stop this pain. If the curvature can stay where it is now and get no worse and the pain will go away, I will get on my knees and thank God for his generosity with me. I just want to be able to enjoy sex with my wife and also not be in pain all day long. I cannot think for 5 minutes without thinking about the pain on days when it hurts. I think penis pain has to be one of the worst you can have. I know there are worse and people in worse condition, but the psychological effects of this are bad.
JamesW
I understand your physiological effects, as it is an issue for many Peyronies sufferers including myself.
You have also done the right think listening to your body and reducing the Cialis to 2.5mg daily. It may be enough as you have stated in an other post that you don't have ED problems.
In my opinion, Pentox will help with the pain, but it takes time.
I would advice you to add to your regime 2*100mg CoQ10 (as you are younger than 40, for older people is better Ubiquinol, but much more expensive). It may contribute to the blood circulation into your penis.
James
Quote from: JamesW on August 10, 2012, 06:07:48 PM
I've had VERY strong flaccid pain for the past 48 hours and there's no rhyme or reason to it. I am praying the Pentiox/L-Arg/Cialis will help my body to heal and stop this pain. If the curvature can stay where it is now and get no worse and the pain will go away, I will get on my knees and thank God for his generosity with me. I just want to be able to enjoy sex with my wife and also not be in pain all day long. I cannot think for 5 minutes without thinking about the pain on days when it hurts. I think penis pain has to be one of the worst you can have. I know there are worse and people in worse condition, but the psychological effects of this are bad.
I have read elsewhere that hard flaccid state could also be a symptom that is not necessarily related to peyronie's disease. its etiology is unknown. it is suggested that the plaque interrupts the normal circulation of blood and the tissue is not sufficiently nourished with blood, hence the hardened flaccid state. however, some men do not have it, in spite of relatively big plaques.
personally i do use medical treatment just to get rid of this constant irritation, discomfort and sometimes pain during the flaccid state because it really disturbs my daily life, my thoughts and actions.
i would say that the hardened flaccid state should be better investigated, maybe there are other underlying causes.
I am having trouble finding any real evidence that l-arginine actually does increase nitric oxide in humans.
It being an immediate precursor does not in fact mean that it will increase nitric oxide production unless l-arginine was the limiting factor previously, in effec the bottleneck.
Does anyone have a link to studies showing that it does in fact increase nitric oxide production in those who are not deficient in it in the first place?
Or are we taking it simply to make sure we are not deficient in it?
Good question! I find I get zero benefit from L-Arginine. In fact, it seems to make things worse. BUT, when I take L-Arginine NO delimiters, even without L-Arginine itself, I get a positive response. But I am sure that not everyone responds that way. In fact some people do get a very positive response from L-Arginine in isolation. So I am sure it all has to do with whatever the limiting factor in the first place might be. - George
What is meant by l-arginine delimiter? Can you give me an example of one?
For example, L-Norvaline, which blocks a metabolic pathway which routes Arginine to collagen production, thus making more of it available to NO production. I really should have used the term "NO delimiter" rather than "L-Arg delimiter". - George
Quote from: George999 on August 28, 2012, 12:31:37 AM
Good question! I find I get zero benefit from L-Arginine. In fact, it seems to make things worse.
When I first started taking L-Arginine I thought it was doing some good, but after taking it a while the benefit seemed to be gone, or maybe never even there. So recently I stopped taking it and immediately things seem "better" down there (though I'd be hard-pressed to tell you what better is, it's just an overall impression). So, for me personally, it may have been making things worse. In the past I know I've needed lots of Lysine because of very bad cold sore outbreaks, along with a bout of cheilitis one year, so it may just be that I am not usually deficient in Arginine and am over-supplementing. All I know is stopping taking it was the right thing to do at the moment. A nutritional/vitamin/amino acid/etc profile for me in the near future is probably also the right thing to do, instead of continuing to shake a stick in the dark.
Quote from: George999 on August 28, 2012, 11:43:24 AM
For example, L-Norvaline, which blocks a metabolic pathway which routes Arginine to collagen production, thus making more of it available to NO production. I really should have used the term "NO delimiter" rather than "L-Arg delimiter". - George
hmm that is interesting, it blocks the pathway which routes arginine toward collagen production. that could be doubly useful, less collagen and more nitric oxide.
Here is the scoop on L-Norvaline:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9458885 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9458885)
And then, on the other side, would be the PDE-5 inhibitors like Cialis that block the break down of Nitric Oxide and thus preserve it to do its blood flow enhancement function. And, of course, there are less expensive options in the form of supplements:
Horny Goat Weed
Cnidium Monnieri - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11345705 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11345705)
etc
You can get all of this in a package, for example:
http://www.controlledlabs.com/product_info.php?products_id=73 (http://www.controlledlabs.com/product_info.php?products_id=73)
http://www.cellshockresearch.com/nrage.php (http://www.cellshockresearch.com/nrage.php)
- George
I use Now Foods L-Arginine powder. Two flat teaspoons mixed in water or juice ( that's around 5g) it tastes foul, so drink it quickly! Does it make a difference in the gym? IMO, yes. I certainly feel stronger and more energetic using it. Whether it will help with the Peyronies problem, it's too early to say. I haven't been taking it for long enough yet.
I was waiting for some L-Arginine to arrive, which seemed to be taking forever so I ordered some more and when it turned up this morning I realised I had made a mistake and ordered something called Arginine AKG instead, which appears to be a pumped up version of L-Arginine from what I've just quickly been reading. Does anybody know if this is OK for Peyronies? On the front of the jar it says "nitric oxide enhancer - advanced cardiovascular nutrition".
I just found this discussion after posting a similar question here Arginine AKG - Peyronies Society Forums (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,2699.msg39035.html#msg39035)
I can't see any mention of sugar with this product and I just wondered how you are getting on Justo. From what I can see this looks like a more effective version of L-Arginine, so I'm wondering why this hasn't been discussed more often if that is the case.
I use NO2 BLACK extended release by MRI. It is an AAKG product. It is sugar free but the AARG b itself might actually alter blood sugar. I also have some White Blood by Controlled Labs and mix the two. I can vouch for the NO2 Black. It does whate arginine is supposed to do in terms of a vaso-dialator. I restrict sugar in my diet so I do not worry much beyond that. Having said that, My Peyronies Disease has been pretty dormant for a few years.
Thanks Hawk, the stuff I bought in error is called Swanson Ultra Maximum Strength Arginine AKG and according to the bottle there is no mention of any other ingredient apart from the gelatine component that may contain magnesium, stearate and silica. That information appears to be backed up on their website so it looks like I can use this in place of the L-Arginine. In fact it may even be better. I'm not diabetic and I'm pretty careful about what I eat and I wasn't aware that blood sugar is something I need to be thinking about beyond simply taking care of myself normally.
I will combine these 2 topics very soon.
Quote from: Hawk on September 13, 2012, 11:46:20 AM
I use NO2 BLACK extended release by MRI. It is an AAKG product. It is sugar free but the AARG b itself might actually alter blood sugar. I also have some White Blood by Controlled Labs and mix the two. I can vouch for the NO2 Black. It does whate arginine is supposed to do in terms of a vaso-dialator. I restrict sugar in my diet so I do not worry much beyond that. Having said that, My Peyronies Disease has been pretty dormant for a few years.
_____________________________________________________
I am no expert on this but the NO2 Black propaganda brochure says something like:
Ingredient Profile:
Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate (A-AKG)3000mg
Proprietary Blend 150mg †
Alpha-Lipoic Acid (Thioctic Acid)
ACTINOS2 Whey Peptide Fraction
No Sugar, wheat, yeast, or soy
Arginine AKG is the source for nitric oxide (NO), NO is a powerful signaling molecule that triggers vascular dilation,
The alpha lipoic acid is a good anti-oxidant and "may increase NO production in diabetic patients".
The ACTINOS2 is a whey protein fraction that is claimed to help upregulate eNOS, which is an enzyme that converts Arginine to Nitric Oxide, thus the supposedly documented 950% increase in NO over taking L-Arginine (as touted by MRI)
They claim without ACTINOS2 you body can't convert much L-arginine no matter how much you take.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Until someone verifies that this messes with blood sugar in a negative way. I like the results so I will buy it.
That all sounds very positive to me Hawk. In fact I'm kind of wondering why everybody focusses on L-Arginine if this stuff has so much more kick but it probably comes down to a case of simply not knowing about it. The swansons AKG is 1000mg per tablet and I haven't tried any yet but I may well give it a go tomorrow in place of the L-Arginine and see how it goes.
Do you guys think or has been your experience that the typical nitric oxide bodybuilding supplement could bring more gains in terms of erections etc than simple L-Arginine? I really need a boost in the erection area, well not these days that I am pained, but yes overall.
A lot of the NO supplements just have arginine, niacin, and a bunch of stimulants. You're better off just buying the individual components that you need I think.
Citrulene Malate is supposed to be more powerful than arginine. It's the precursor to arginine, but supposedly you end up with more in your system by taking the l-citrulene.
Other natural NO/ED supplements worth looking into: pycnogenol, horny goat weed, ecklonia cava.
I have some ecklonia cava on the way. I'm excited to try it out. There was a study that indicated it was significantly better than viagra, but it's more of a long-term (daily for months) treatment.
Yeah probably not worth the extra cash. A combo of Arginine and Pycgogenol could do it. Thats pretty pricey though, but I like the idea than pycgonenol has many other benefits.
Ecklonia cava, thats new! Keep us posted with the results.
I bought some Arginine AKG by mistake a while ago, which is supposed to be a stronger version of L-Arginine but the cost is broadly similar. Actually when I took 2mg a day in addition to 2mg of L-Arginine I found my heart was beating pretty hard inside my chest on the first day, so I dropped it down to 1mg of AKG Arginine in addition to 2mg of L-Arginine and that seems fine. You may find the amounts you are comfortable with varies. There are loads of supplements out there that will supposedly enhance NO.
One point I'd add is that it makes sense to go gradually when trying different supplements and don't just try them all at once because you might end up making yourself ill in some way. When I first got Peyronies Disease my erections were a disaster and kept collapsing around the main plaque but it did improve a little after a while and the supplements helped for sure; not only with the erections but also the pain.
Re Omega 3 oils. I've been using Wholehealth products. Their high strength capsules give 1200mg EHA and 600mg DHA. I also use their CoQ10 300mg. It's a US company based in Colorado.
Quote from: Jonbinspain on August 31, 2012, 02:11:18 AM
I use Now Foods L-Arginine powder. Two flat teaspoons mixed in water or juice ( that's around 5g) it tastes foul, so drink it quickly! Does it make a difference in the gym? IMO, yes. I certainly feel stronger and more energetic using it. Whether it will help with the Peyronies problem, it's too early to say. I haven't been taking it for long enough yet.
NOW foods powder is what i've been using lately also. I found if i mix it with a small amount of Cherry Limeade and shoot it and chase it with OJ it's bearable. It tastes terrible mixed with anything else, even over powers protein shakes and DO NOT SMELL IT. You will puke. ha.
Hi Guys,
I'm new here, this is my first post and like you guys I'm living with the nightmare of peyronie's. I will welcome myself properly in the forums a little later as I am just about to leave work (Irish time ;)) but anxious to get treating this decease as I have left it unattended (crappy Uro) long enough.
I am hoping you might be able to help with a question...if I am placing this post in the wrong area, apologies and please feel free to move this. I am looking at getting some oral supplements to start, namely ALCa & L-Arg and am wondering what grade (e.g. pharmaceutical or food) products are best to buy? I seen in another thread some recommended place's where I can buy (Puritan's Pride, Holland & Barrett etc) these products, as well as others I have found myself but they are mostly food grade. Is food grade good enough for peyronie's or should I be looking for pharmaceutical grade products? Maybe it doesn't really matter but I would love your advice on this.
Many thanks,
Paul
BTW...this forum and the people on it are helping me so so much...I've alot to read through but it's fantastic to find this place, thank you all so much!!
In terms of Arginine, I'm on 2 x 500 a day. Helps with the nocturnals. These are just the regular healthfood shop type.As you say Holland & Barrett or similar. Good luck.
I take 5g of arginine per day. However, I am a gym regular. I find the combination helps quite a bit with blood flow. Buy it in powder firm, if you can stand the taste! It's far cheaper than capsules.
Quote from: Jonbinspain on October 13, 2012, 06:00:38 AM
I take 5g of arginine per day. However, I am a gym regular. I find the combination helps quite a bit with blood flow. Buy it in powder firm, if you can stand the taste! It's far cheaper than capsules.
I have recently found the same thing with ALC in powder form. The taste is pretty bad but the cost saving is enormous if you buy a single big bag. At the moment I have enough L-Arginine for several months but I will almost certainly buy it in powder form next time around because the ongoing monthly costs of all this have really begun to add up.
This is the first time I have read about L-Citrulline and it certainly sounds interesting.
Paul-Ire
Regarding supplements, they are food supplements (some are calling them "Health Supplements") and not medications, so I don't know if have "pharmaceutical grade"
Myself using supplements from known suppliers and brands, hope are fine. :)
James
Pharmaceutical grade supplements are produced by Japanese and European pharmaceutical companies which observe higher standards than the run of the mill supplement operations that produce food grade supplements. That is the bottom line. There are a number of targeted supplements that have significantly higher priced pharmaceutical grade options available. - George
George
When you are talking about higher standards, what you mean?
More hygienic, better raw materials, better control of the different ingredient quantities, maybe better quality control?
James
Really, all of the above. Hugely wealthy pharmaceutical companies tend to have cleaner processing equipment than run of the mill supplement companies. That, of course, is not a hard and fast rule, but it is USUALLY the case. Secondly, they usually have more "brain power" available when it comes to blending multiple ingredient products in order to come up with the desired results in an optimal package. Thirdly, they simply have more technology at their disposal to assist in the process. Lastly, they have the resources to more effectively screen their raw materials and "know" their suppliers and are often willing to pay more for their raw material, whereas many supplement vendors simply look for the cheapest price, which often leads them to Asian markets and raw materials that are potentially contaminated or even adulterated. In the case of a lot of supplements, it probably doesn't matter that much for most people. But in the case of key supplements, you really want to know that what you are getting is going to work and is not going to poison you in the process. In that case, you are ahead to go with first rate pharmaceutical grade products. - George
Hey I am takin L-Arginine from GNC. It is cost efficient. I have been taking it for 2 months and work out regularly. I have been noticing a little difference in my peyronies but not a significant difference. Do any of you know any other treatment. I try to massage the tissue in hopes of breaking it up. Any suggestions? Is this wrong to do?
rgnugent
You may find some answers at:
Just got diagnosed with PDS help. - Peyronies Society Forums (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,2714.msg39147.html#msg39147)
:)
James
Hi guys,
Thank you very much 4 all the info and advice. I went 4 the pharmaceutical grade in the end. They r more expensive alrite which is a pain but hopefully they have some sort of effect on this nightmare!
I ended up just getting ALC 4 d minute. Im heading for surgery in 4 weeks time on a herniated disk and have read here that you need to come off L-arg & Q10 2 weeks beforehand so prob best to wait til after that 2 start taking them. My symptoms seem 2 have stablised some ago so I'm praying it stays that way until ive recovered enough n can properly start my peyronie's regime.
Will keep u up to date wit any progress. Thanks again every1
unfortunately i've had to stop taking cialis but not for medical reasons, even with the portion my insurance pays the cost is still out of my financial range. due to this i've upped my L-arginine intake to 2000mg a day. i use a time realse type, 1000 in the morning with breakfast and the same at supper time. before i raised it i had noticed i wasn't getting the nocturnal erections that i had been which is why i doubled it. after just a couple days i started waking up during the night and in the morning with a halfway decent stiffy.
about the erections, i've found that as long as i'm reclined it stays around quite a while but as soon as i stand up it begins to fade which makes it tough to get a picture of it for my uro. leakage?
anyway, does the 2000 a day sound ok or would more be better?
steamer
i forgot to mention that even the ubiquinol is out of reach for me right now. this is getting ridiculous. i could do the co q10 but at my age(58) i don't know if it'll do much, if any good.
steamer
Steamer
2000mg L-Arginine is much better than 1000mg and showing better results for me also.
Regarding Cialis, I am buying the 20mg and cutting to 5 pcs, so come out 4mg each. Much cheaper in this way than buying the 5mg.
If you can afford CoQ10, take it, can't make damage. You have to check the relation between Ubiquinol/Ubiquinone in your blood to see how effective is.
I hope Pless will jump in with his opinion, he is much expert in the CoQ10/Ubiquinol than me.
James
I would certainly agree with James on the CoQ10. It would definitely be worth a shot if you can afford it. - George
i'll give the Co Q10 a try. i guess it can't hurt. i was using ubiquinol but as i said...$$$$$$.
steamer
I did post this on another thread, but probably the wrong one. Like many supplements, Acetyl l Carnitine is far cheaper to buy as a powder, than in capsule form. I have found a UK supplier of 100% pharma grade Carnitine . I have just bought 1kg for £32.50 - or just over $50. I hope it will provide a low cost alternative to the capsules. I have also bought 1kg of L-Arginine for about £3.00 less. Also 100% pharma grade. I'm happy to give the name to anybody interested.
Jonbinspain
Can you give the details of the supplier?
I am buying the Acetyl L-Carnitine from the US and come out not cheap.
Maybe they will supply also out from the UK
James
Hi James;
The name is Trade Ingredients. You can find them on EBay UK. Or their tel is: +44 191 4556086 email. david@arndale.co.uk. Or if you put Acety L Carnitine powder into EBay search, you should be able to see the info yourself.
I have only just started on this this morning. I've been using up the capsules I had first. Whether they will supply outside of the UK, I don't know.
Jonbinspain
Thank you for the info. I find Trade Ingredients by google:
Product not found! (http://www.tradeingredients.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=97)
They are shipping worldwide.
The price really amassing.
How you are taking it? I mean, compared to the 100mg capsules? How much?
James
I take about 2-3 grams per day. Equivalent to 20-30 of 100mg capsules - or 4-6 of the normal 500mg capsules. Look at EBay UK, it may still be offered there. If nit, I'm sure they will have some more soon. As with L-Arginine, it's doesn't taste great - but think of the cost saving while you drink it.
Jonbinspain
Sorry, I mixed up with the Acetyl L-Carnitine. I don't know why is written "Product not found!" but if you will click the link is taking you to Trade Ingredients page of Acetyl L-Carnitine.
The link bellow will take you to the L-Arginine page. It is also written "Product not found" but the link is working:
Product not found! (http://www.tradeingredients.com/index.php?route=product/product&keyword=L-Arginine&category_id=0&description=1&product_id=51)
By the way, you will see the price is 28.90 pound per 1Kg
James
I take the LArginine powder also. 2tbsp of it mixed with juice. Think it equals 4 or 5 grams
Hi James;
I just looked at their EBay site. It seems that the 1kg of l-Arginine may be temporarily out of stock. However, they are showing 500g bags at just over half the price. You can find them on EBay UK by simply putting the product into the search function.
Jonbinspain
Thanks again for the info.
Can buy it directly from Trade Ingredients:
Food Ingredients & Sports Supplements (http://www.tradeingredients.com/index.php?route=common/home)
I think Trade Ingredients is a good source for other supplements also.
James
You're welcome, James. The cost of trying to fight this disease is not insignificant for most of us. Anything that helps with easing that, I'm happy to share.
I actually came on the forum just now with the idea of starting a thread about increasing dosages but this works, so I'll just add my piece here.
Although I'm on Pentox and Cialis I felt I could be doing more and I'm impatient for results, so I was encouraged by a post in the progress section by one forum member who practically beat this dreadful condition in 3 months flat. What I noticed was that he didn't stick to the standard dosages often mentioned here and had increased some considerably, so just over a week ago I basically doubled my daily intake for ALC, CoQ10 and L-Arginine with no ill effects.
Jonbinspain is correct that you can save a bundle buy purchasing in powder form and I think that is the way forward but I would recommend sticking with the better known names who have a reputation to protect and I found the more established sites used by bodybuilders such as http://www.myprotein.com (http://www.myprotein.com) or http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk (http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk) are a good starting point. I purchased a powder form of ALC that worked out about 5 times less than buying it in capsules. I'll be sure to do the same with L-Arginine when my present supplies finish.
Obviously it has only been a short time and the scar is still very much present but I noticed earlier that it suddenly seemed to feel softer and more flexible than before, which I believe is a good thing. Curvature is stable at around 20 degrees and I'm continuing with the VED but more gently than before.
I'm now on 4g per day of L-Arginine, 4g of ALC and 500mg of CoQ10 plus assorted vitamins. My theory is that if I throw the kitchen sink at this I might just see an early resolution and even end up saving some cash over the long term.
One point worth mentioning is that it's not a bad idea to raise your dosages slowly if you are thinking of doing this, especially if you are older or not generally in the best of health. A month ago I tried increasing the L-Arginine in a similar fashion and I could feel my heart beating in my chest so I backed off but over time I've found I can tolerate it more easily.
ashtown
Maybe you are right increasing the dosage, I read on our forum that one of the leading Peyronies doctors increased Pentox to 6*400mg daily. Personally I was scared by this dosage.
Your approach to increase intake of a med or supplement gradually is my approach also, just now after 6 months on 2*400mg daily Pentox I am trying to increase to 3*400mg daily. Previous time, when I started on Pentox, I was not tolerating 3*400mg daily.
James
That doctor could well be right about the Pentox dosage but I only have the amount supplied by the doctor and in any case I'm wary of increasing the dosage on prescription drugs, however ALC, L-Arginine and CoQ10 are all effectively natural substances normally found in the body that we are simply boosting to aid recovery. Like everybody else practically I've stuck to accepted dosages before now based on reported studies that showed some degree of success but none of studies went as far as testing ideal dosages and whether less or more might be more beneficial.
I'm really basing my approach loosely on the progress report by Mrgnarly Mrgnarly - Peyronies Society Forums (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,2748.0.html) on this forum who used high dosages for 3 months to good effect apparently and kick started the healing process. Just to be clear my scar is still very much present and I'm not cured but this approach seems to make as much sense as any other and we actually have a documented case of rapid success. Although temporary in nature I also sense that green tea and a good night of sleep seem to help.