[Taurine inhibits deposition of extracellular matrix in experimental liver fibrosis in rats]QuoteTo study the effect of taurine on liver fibrosis and its mechanism. METHODS: Fibrosis was induced by the administration of carbon tertrachloride(CCl4) in rats. Some of the animals were treated with taurine. The rats were killed after 12 weeks of CCl4 treatment. Depositions of type I, III and IV collages, laminin and hyaluronic acid were studied in liver sections by immunohistochemical technique using specific antibody. The hepatic contents of type I, III procollage and tissue inhibitor of metalloproteinase-1(TIMP-1) mRNA were determined by Northern blot hybridization. RESULTS: A significant elevations of hepatic collagen I, III, IV, laminin and hyaluronic acid were observed after 12 weeks of liver injury in animals without taurine treatment, and a definite increase in the amounts of hepatic type I, III procollagen and TIMP-1 mRNA was noted. Taurine prevented increases in type I, III procollagen mRNA expression as well as the accumulation of the collagens, laminin and hyaluronic acid in the liver. CONCLUSION: The data indicate that taurine has a protective effect in CCl4-induced hepatic fibrosis. The results suggest taurine might be of potential value in clinical practice.
-
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10572688
[Oral administration of taurine improves experimental pancreatic fibrosis]QuoteBACKGROUND AND AIM: The mechanism of pancreatic fibrosis is unclear. Taurine is used in the clinical treatment of a wide variety of diseases, but its effect on improving pancreatic fibrosis is unknown. We examined whether a diet with added taurine improves pancreatic fibrosis induced by dibutyltin dichloride (DBTC) in an experimental chronic pancreatitis rat model. In addition, we examined the influence of taurine on pancreatic stellate cells. METHODS: Pancreatic fibrosis was induced by DBTC. Rats were fed a taurine-containing diet or a normal diet and were killed at 4 weeks. Pancreatic stellate cells were isolated from male Wistar rats. Cultured pancreatic stellate cells were incubated with or without taurine chloramine. Type I collagen and transforming growth factor-beta1 secretion was evaluated by ELISA, and matrix metalloproteinase activity was assessed by gelatin zymography. Interleukin-6, interleukin-2, and transforming growth factor-beta1 levels in the supernatants of pancreatic tissue homogenates were measured. RESULTS: Pancreatic fibrosis induced by DBTC was improved remarkably by the oral administration of the taurine-containing diet. Taurine chloramine decreased type I collagen, transforming growth factor-beta1, and matrix metalloproteinases 2 of the pancreatic stellate cell culture supernatant. Increased interleukin-6 and decreased interleukin-2 were found in the supernatants of the pancreatic tissue homogenates of DBTC-induced pancreatitis rats compared with other groups. CONCLUSION: The oral administration of taurine improves pancreatic fibrosis. Taurine chloramine inhibits transforming growth factor-beta1 produced from activated pancreatic stellate cells and improves pancreatic fibrosis.
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17764527
[Taurine attenuates radiation-induced lung fibrosis in C57/Bl6 fibrosis prone mice] (July 2009)
QuoteINTRODUCTION: The amino acid taurine has an established role in attenuating lung fibrosis secondary to bleomycin-induced injury. This study evaluates taurine's effect on TGF-beta1 expression and the development of lung fibrosis after single-dose thoracic radiotherapy. METHODS: Four groups of C57/Bl6 mice received 14 Gy thoracic radiation. Mice were treated with taurine or saline supplementation by gavage. After 10 days and 14 weeks of treatment, TGF-beta1 levels were measured in serum and bronchoalveolar lavage fluid (BALF). Lung collagen content was determined using hydroxyproline analysis. RESULTS: Ten days post radiotherapy, serum TGF-beta1 levels were significantly lower after gavage with taurine rather than saline (P = 0.033). BALF TGF-beta1 at 10 days was also significantly lower in mice treated with taurine (P = 0.031). Hydroxyproline content was also significantly lower at 14 weeks in mice treated with taurine (P = 0.020). CONCLUSION: This study presents novel findings of taurine's role in protecting from TGF-beta1-associated development of lung fibrosis after thoracic radiation.
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19609640
I'm sure a few people here are already taking taurine, but I thought it was worth posting these studies. It's probably something that can be of use to us. Also, I appreciate that these studies are on rats and not humans.
Beta-Alanine and carnosine are known to induce taurine deficiency (see here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18388409?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum), ,here (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14746829?ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum) and here (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118709896/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0)).
If there is no way around this, it may be important /relevant to either supplement with taurine, or make a decision as to which supplement is most important to you. I haven't seen any studies that state how much taurine one would need to offset the loss of taurine from carnosine useage.
This is of course only relevant if you view taurine as worth taking, but it is a bit of a conundrum and presses the point that there are so many interactions going on that we find ourselves at cross purposes on occasion.
I've started taking a few grams a day (about 1 per meal). It also helps with recovery from exercise, enhances sleep, and perhaps helps anxiety.
S&S,
Wasn't it you who posted some time ago that the taurine relieved some of your Peyronie's related pain? I have the NOW 1 gram capsules and they recommend dosing between meals. It also recommends taking the taurine with NOW Magnesium Potassium Aspartate and B6. It took 1 gram per day for a while but didn't notice any real effect. Possibly did not take it long enough. I still have about half the bottle left, just kind of forgot about it. Do you think it's worth resuming?
Fred
I think it falls in the category of "can't hurt, might help". There's a thread on taurine at imminst.org (http://www.imminst.org/forum/Taurine-t10793.html) that's gotten some attention lately.
s&s
I read the thread and it sounds pretty interesting. I wonder why the NOW brand suggests taking "between meals", which I assume means on an empty stomach? You say you're taking yours with meals?
Fred
Yeah, I'm not sure it matters when you take it. It's not one of the large neutral amino acids that compete to get into the brain. I can't rule out that an empty stomach might be best. It seems to make sleep more restful for me, so I sometimes take it before going to sleep.
I saw this study,
Amelioration of bleomycin-induced lung fibrosis in hamsters by dietary supplementation with taurine and niacin: biochemical mechanisms, for which the
full text (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1567008) is available.
QuoteIt was concluded from the data presented at this Conference that the combined treatment with taurine and niacin, which offers a multipronged approach, will have great therapeutic potential in the intervention of the development of chemically induced interstitial lung fibrosis in animals and humans.
Maybe some niacin taken at the same time would be helpful.
s&s
Here's another study about taurine and niacin in hampsters (PMID 9490651):
QuoteNuclear runoff analysis indicated that TN-mediated reduction of TGF-beta1 mRNA steady-state levels was a result of decreased gene transcription, suggesting a transcriptional downregulation mechanism. Our results indicate that the combined treatment with TN ameliorates BL-induced lung fibrosis, at least in part, via inhibition of TGF-beta1 mRNA expression.
Nice that we have TGF-beta1 inhibition. The full text is available, but unfortunately it doesn't say which form of niacin was used, but I believe that saying "niacin" means nicotinic acid. That's the form that causes the flush, by the way.
s&s
QuoteAIM: To investigate the inhibitory effect of natural taurine (NTau) on portal hypertension (PHT) in rats with experimentally-induced liver cirrhosis (LC). METHODS: Experimentally-induced LC Wistar rats (20 rats/group) were treated with either oral saline or oral NTau for 6 consecutive weeks. Evaluation parameters included portal venous pressure (PVP), portal venous resistance (PVR), portal venous flow (PVF), splanchnic vascular resistance (SVR) and mean arterial pressure (MAP). Vasoactive substance levels including nitric oxide (NO), nitric oxide synthase (NOS) and cyclic guanosine monophosphate (cGMP) were also measured. Histological investigation of type I and III collagen (COL I and III) and transforming growth factor-beta(1) (TGF-beta1) was also performed. RESULTS: Treatment with NTau (1) significantly decreased PVP, PVR and PVF, and increased MAP and SVP; (2) markedly increased the vascular compliance and reduced the zero-stress of the portal vein; (3) markedly decreased the amount of NO and cGMP and activity of NOS; and (4) improved the pathological status of the liver tissue and reduced the expression of COL I, COL III and TGF-beta1. CONCLUSION: NTau inhibited the LC-induced PHT by improving hyperdynamic circulation, morphology of liver and biomechanical properties of the portal vein in experimentally-induced LC rats
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19777611
Taking 2-3 grams of taurine at bedtime seems to be great when it comes to timing. It makes for a restful night too.
Interesting article (http://sciencestage.com/d/518649/interaction-of-taurine-with-methionine-inhibition-of-myocardial-phospholipid-methyltransferase-.html) about an in vitro study,
Interaction of taurine with methionine: inhibition of myocardial phospholipid methyltransferase:
QuotePerfusion of isolated, working rat heart with buffer containing 300 microM methionine in the presence of 2.5 U/L insulin led to a 15% decrease in cardiac work and a four-fold decrease in sarcolemmal Na(+)-Ca2+ exchange activity. These effects of methionine were largely prevented by inclusion of 10 mM taurine in the buffer supplemented with methionine and insulin.
I remarked that methionine inflames my Peyronies Disease. I found this by noticing some inflammation when I made a whey shake, and later took methionine as a supplement and had a repeat. Perhaps taking taurine with whey would prevent that.
I mentioned a study here (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,908.msg22472.html#msg22472) relating to the potential use of Superoxide Dismutase in the treatment of peyronie's (as well as other instances of fibrosis). Unfortunately the "topical gel containing liposomally encapsulated recombinant human superoxide dismutase" mentioned isn't available to purchase. Not that we know that it would work, but any positive peyronie's study is worth exploring. Superoxide Dismutase (http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-S-O-D-2000-Units-90-Tablets/1506?at=0) is available from iherb in the forum of a dietary supplement called S.O.D.
I just now found what is claimed to be an enhanced verison of Superoxide Dismutase from 'Life Extension' called GliSODin (http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item01297/Endothelial-Defense-with-GliSODin-and-CocoaGold.html). It contains cocoa and pomegranate too. (wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glisodin))
Taurine may be a useful addition to the peyronie's arsenal, and it does appear that taurine raises superoxide dismutase levels, so maybe it is useful in part due to this mechanism:
QuoteEffect of taurine on alcoholic liver disease in rats.
Wu G, Yang J, Sun C, Luan X, Shi J, Hu J.
College of Animal Science and Veterinary Medicine, Shenyang Agricultural University, Shenyang, China. gaofengwu@126.com
To investigate the effect of taurine on alcoholic liver disease in rats, male Wistar rats were administered alcohol intragastrically for 3 months. The effect of beta-alanine-mediated taurine depletion and taurine administration on the development of alcoholic liver disease was examined. It was found that taurine administration produced lower levels of aspartate aminotransferase and alkaline aminotransferase than that of the untreated group. In addition, the levels of hepatic total protein, glutathione and superoxide dismutase were higher in the taurine treated groups than in the untreated control or the taurine depleted group, while hepatic malondialdehyde content exhibited the opposite effect. Moreover, the content of hepatic hydroxyproline, serum hyaluronic acid, interleukin-2, interleukin-6, tumor necrosis factor-alpha and laminin were all decreased in the taurine treated group. The pathological changes showed that the percentage of fatty degeneration and inflammation in the taurine group were less than that of the control, taurine depleted and automatic recovery groups. These in-vivo findings demonstrate that hepatic disease caused by chronic alcohol consumption can be prevented and reversed by administration of taurine.
In fact countless studies state that taurine increase SOD. Should anybody else ever be interested or able to go the hyperbaric chamber route oxidation, as a strange coincidence the wikipedia page references a study that shows that Glisodin is helpful in protecting against DNA damage (http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?content=10.1080/10715760412331273197) in such circumstances.
Four small studies are listed in this pdf (http://www.glisodin.org/_Media/sod_superoxide_dismutase_-_.pdf) state that injectable Orgotein (which is superoxide dismutases) may show promise in peyronie's patients when injected, though some of the peyronie's disease summary studies elsewhere hint that it hasn't been consistently useful.
It appears that we aren't going to get hold of the injectable version of this anytime soon, but maybe the enhanced oral bioavailability version may be of use to us. Adding an oral version to a regime seems like a safe bet since it has anti inflammatory and anti fibrotic properties in a number of conditions. I'm aware that there are a fair amount of assumptions here, but that's true of any area we explore.
You can get glisodin from iHerb from a number of manufacturers who package it. See glisodin.org for lists of the studies about it. I take some before heading out to the beach in the summer.
SOD is hard to get through the digestive system into the blood. Glisodin does this by attaching the SOD to wheat protein, and as I understand it, wheat being wheat, it punches a hole through your intestine. I don't know if this is any worse than eating wheat bread.
I read on imminst that there is a competitor (http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=32639) to glisodin now, but I haven't looked into it much.
Interesting post in the link about using palm oil to make it more bioavailable. I wonder if the same would be true of coconut oil. It's a shame there isn't a topical version, as I'd be interested in trying it via that method.
Quote from: slowandsteady on October 13, 2009, 06:40:31 PM
I remarked that methionine inflames my Peyronies Disease. I found this by noticing some inflammation when I made a whey shake, and later took methionine as a supplement and had a repeat. Perhaps taking taurine with whey would prevent that.
Interesting finding. Taurine appears to be useful on a number of fronts. I'm taking 500mg of niacin daily with it following you highlighting that angle. I take an aspirin 30 mins before the taurine + niacin, and as a result there's no flushing. I wonder if taurines effectiveness is further increased in combination with other substances.
I hate to keep bringing this up, but how much difference do you feel it makes whether you take the taurine with meals or on an empty stomach? I was taking one gram per day on empty stomach. Now I'm usually taking a gram with each meal (3 grams a day) and it seems to be helping (at least the pain has decreased to some degree, which may just be a coincidence). I'm taking the NOW Foods taurine 1 gram caps and it states on the bottle to take on empty stomach. Again, I apologize, for repeating myself, but just want to take this upp in the most effective way. Thanks.
Fred
My guess is that it's fine taken with meals. I'm unaware of any advantage in taking it alone, though I can't rule it out. Another thread on taurine here (http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=10793&st=0).
My psychiatrist didn't want to prescribe be trazadone because he doesn't like to prescribe it to young patients due to the risk of that side effect. I am going to just try to recieve nocturnal erections with l-arginine and if that doesn't work adding pycnogonel, but am I most likely not going to be getting the firm, rock hard erections with these that I would with trazadone? I am also considering getting some horny goat weed and maca for my libido due to the decrease thanks to lexapro. Are these two good options for that and do that have any nasty side effects? Sorry I always ask questions on this forum. I know I should be doing my own research, which I do, but I like having your opinions as well because everyone hear has studied these things a lot longer than I have and I always appreciate it =]
Just for the record, I would like to introduce Lyprinol to our forum. I have just begun taking this stuff and it does seem to be helpful in terms of controlling at least some types of inflammation. For months I have had a general inflammation in my right shoulder area and this *seems* to have responded to the first dose of Lyprinol. Four softgels are recommended when starting, I am only taking one and I am using the less potent ET formulation to boot. Since I have only taken Lyprinol for two days so far, I can not really vouch for its effectiveness based on my own experience. But I do think it has some interesting potential and might prove attractive to those who cannot tolerate NSAIDs. So here are the links:
Main Lyprinol website (product available online):
Lyprinol USA (https://www.lyprinolusa.com/cart/order.htm)
Reduced strength product also available from iherb:
iherb.com - Enzymatic Therapy Lyprinol (http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Lyprinol-Joint-Health-60-Softgels/2232?at=0)
Lyprinol Studies and Papers both positive and negative:
Quote from: PubMed
Pain Controlling and Cytokine-regulating Effects of Lyprinol, a Lipid Extract of Perna Canaliculus, in a Rat Adjuvant-induced Arthritis Model (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686621/)
Using an adjuvant-induced arthritis rat model, we investigated the effects of a lipid extract of Perna canaliculus (Lyprinol®) on pain. Radiological examinations, as well as levels of pro- and anti-inflammatory (AI) cytokines, were measured aiming to provide independent objective data to the pain controlling investigation. We confirmed the ability of Lyprinol® to control pain at the initial phase of its administration; with similar efficacy to that observed with Naproxen. The pain scores slowly increased again in the group of rats treated with Lyprinol® after day 9–14. The Naproxen-treated rats remained pain-free while treated. Both Naproxen and Lyprinol® decreased the levels of the pro-inflammatory cytokines TNF-α and IFN-γ, and increased that of IL-10. Extra-virgin olive oil was ineffective on cytokine secretion. Rats treated with Lyprinol® were apparently cured after 1 year. This study confirms the AI efficacy of this lipid extract of P. canaliculus, its initial analgesic effect, its perfect tolerance and its long-term healing properties.
Quote from: PubMed
Anti-inflammatory effects of a stabilized lipid extract of Perna canaliculus (Lyprinol). (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11094640)
A lipid-rich extract, prepared by supercritical fluid (CO2) extraction of freeze-dried stabilized NZ green-lipped mussel powder (Lyprinol) has shown significant anti-inflammatory (AI) activity when given to animals and humans. When treated p.o. with Lyprinol, Wistar and Dark Agouti rats developed neither adjuvant-induced polyarthritis or collagen(II)-induced auto-allergic arthritis. This was achieved with doses < NSAIDs, and 200 times < of other seed or fish oils. Lyprinol subfractions inhibited LTB4 biosynthesis by PMN in vitro, and PGE2 production by activated macrophages. Much of this AI activity was associated with omega-3 PUFAs and natural antioxidants [e.g. carotenoids]. In contrast to NSAIDs, Lyprinol is non-gastro toxic in disease-stressed rats at 300 mg/kg p.o., and does not affect platelet aggregation [human, rat]. Clinical studies, either controlled or randomized, have demonstrated very significant AI activity in patients with osteoarthritis (OA), rheumatoid arthritis (RA), asthma, and other inflammatory conditions. Lyprinol is a reproducible, stable source of bioactive lipids with much greater potency than plant/marine oils currently used as nutritional supplements to ameliorate signs of inflammation.
Quote from: IBIDS
Efficacy and tolerability of a combination of Lyprinol and high concentrations of EPA and DHA in inflammatory rheumatoid disorders. (http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail&origin=ibids_references&therow=778734)
This 12-week drug-monitoring study was conducted to evaluate the efficacy of Sanhelios Mussel Lyprinol Lipid Complex on 50 adult men and women with inflammatory rheumatoid arthritis. A total of 34 patients required drug therapy before and during the study. By the end of the study, 21 (62%) patients were able to reduce their dosage and 13 were able to terminate drug therapy. At the end of the treatment period, 38% were regarded symptom free, and the number of patients with severe pain decreased significantly from 60% at baseline to 25% at the completion of the trial. A significant effect was observed for each investigated parameter. The special combination of Lyprinol and omega-3 fatty acids was generally very well tolerated, with only one, nonserious adverse event (mild nausea) reported. This dietary supplement may therefore be considered an effective and well-tolerated component of treatment regimens for inflammatory rheumatoid arthritis.
Quote from: ECAM
Lyprinol—is it a Useful Anti-inflammatory Agent? (http://ecam.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/nep030)
The New Zealand green lipped mussel preparation Lyprinol is available without a prescription from a supermarket, pharmacy or Web. The Food and Drug Administration have recently warned Lyprinol USA about their extravagant anti-inflammatory claims for Lyprinol appearing on the web. These claims are put to thorough review. Lyprinol does have anti-inflammatory mechanisms, and has anti-inflammatory effects in some animal models of inflammation. Lyprinol may have benefits in dogs with arthritis. There are design problems with the clinical trials of Lyprinol in humans as an anti-inflammatory agent in osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis, making it difficult to give a definite answer to how effective Lyprinol is in these conditions, but any benefit is small. Lyprinol also has a small benefit in atopic allergy. As anti-inflammatory agents, there is little to choose between Lyprinol and fish oil. No adverse effects have been reported with Lyprinol. Thus, although it is difficult to conclude whether Lyprinol does much good, it can be concluded that Lyprinol probably does no major harm.
Quote from: CABI
Lyprinol (stabilised lipid extract of New Zealand green-lipped mussel): a potential preventative treatment modality for inflammatory bowel disease. (http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=20053086023)
Background: Lyprinol (Pharmalink International), the stabilised lipid extract of the New Zealand green-lipped mussel, is currently used to relieve symptoms of arthritis. We investigated the effect of pretreatment with Lyprinol (LYP) on experimentally induced inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) in mice. Methods: Male C57BL/6 mice (aged 6 weeks) were gavaged daily for 13 days with (150 µl) olive oil (OO; n=7), fish oil (FO; n=8), or LYP (n=8). Mice consumed 2% dextran sulfate sodium (DSS) for 6 days, starting on day 7. Body weight and disease activity index (DAI) scores were recorded daily. Colonic damage was determined by histopathology. Colonic inflammation was quantified by myeloperoxidase (MPO) activity. Results: LYP treatment significantly (P<0.05) reduced body weight loss, DAI scores, crypt area losses, and cecum and colon weights, compared with FO treatment. MPO activity was not significantly affected by any treatment. Conclusions: These findings provide preliminary evidence that Lyprinol may be potentially useful in ameliorating symptoms of IBD. The benefit, however, is unlikely to be due to the omega-3 fatty acid content. Dose-response evaluation of Lyprinol in experimental IBD is warranted.
Quote from: Journal of Nutrition
Improvement of Arthritic Signs in Dogs Fed Green-Lipped Mussel (Perna canaliculus) (http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/132/6/1634S)
These data provide evidence that GLM powder is effective in reducing arthritic signs in dogs when sprinkled directly onto a standard diet or when incorporated into processed treat and main meal products. Total arthritic scores and scores for joint pain and joint swelling were significantly reduced following 6 wk of GLM supplementation in all three forms. Although the mechanism for this is not fully understood, the effect may be the result, in part, of a reduction in the synovial inflammatory response. Anti-inflammatory activity of freeze-dried powdered GLM has been demonstrated in rats. More recently, a lipid-rich extract of stabilized GLM has been shown to be a potent, but relatively slow-acting, anti-inflammatory agent, with the highest anti-inflammatory activity being found in the polyunsaturated free fatty acid (PUFA) component of the mussel.
Quote from: Batyr University
Mussel Extract Beneficial for Asthma Sufferers (http://bastyrcenter.org/content/view/946/)
In this double-blind study, 46 individuals with asthma who had never been treated with steroids were randomly assigned to receive two capsules of a lipid extract of New Zealand green-lipped mussel (Lyprinol®) twice a day or a placebo for eight weeks. Compared with the placebo group, the group receiving Lyprinol experienced a significant decrease in daytime wheezing and a significant improvement in the ability to move air through the bronchial passages (peak expiratory flow rate). Participants receiving the mussel extract also had fewer nighttime awakenings and required less asthma medication than did participants in the placebo group, although these differences were not statistically significant.
How is your Lyprinol experiment going george?
TGF-beta 1 is significantly associated with Peyronies Disease (1 (http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S002253470164223X),2 (http://www.nature.com/ijir/journal/v14/n5/full/3900873a.html)).
N-acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC) and alpha lipoic acid blocked the effect of TGF-beta 1 that was induced by serotonin (in rat kidney cells) in this study (3 (http://ajprenal.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/276/6/F922)). That reminds me that some people have reported that melatonin made things worse for them. In this study, NAC normalized TGF-beta 1 levels and ALA did almost as well. Serotonin induced TGF-beta 1 by quite a lot, I was surprised to find.
Other studies have found ALA to inhibit renal fibrosis (4 (http://www.koreamed.org/SearchBasic.php?DT=1&RID=498038)). Hopefully it would help out in the tunica too.
Melatonin
I have taken melatonin for several years now as a sleep aid. I had never heard anything negative about it. Obviously, if is is not good for Peyronies patients, I will find something else to help me sleep. Slowandsteady, can you expand on it making Peyronies worse.
GS
Quote from: GS on February 22, 2010, 12:04:20 PM
Melatonin
I have taken melatonin for several years now as a sleep aid. I had never heard anything negative about it. Obviously, if is is not good for Peyronies patients, I will find something else to help me sleep. Slowandsteady, can you expand on it making Peyronies worse.
GS
Some have found it makes autoimmune conditions worse. It may increase serotonin. Since serotonin is used in making melatonin, supplementing serotonin might mean that there is more serotonin around. On the other hand, that's the case in the brain, and I don't know whether it applies to sites outside of the brain.
FWIW, I haven't noticed much difference with or without melatonin. You might want to try glycine as a sleep aid; I find it works great, and it has some studies behind it.
I've been finding NAC (I use this one (http://www.iherb.com/Jarrow-Formulas-N-A-C-Sustain-600-mg-100-Tablets/135?at=1), two on waking and 2 before bed) more helpful than I expected. I had been taking it before, though only at 600mg/day.
I'm actually seeing improvement in my hourglassing (the shape of the side that I first got Peyronies Disease on seems to be more normal now).
Caveats: I don't know
- if the NAC is responsible; the SSKI that I've been on for a couple of months might be involved
- if progress will continue
s&s
any more progress S&S
Quote from: young25 on March 11, 2010, 12:43:34 PM
any more progress S&S
Not so much. The changes I'm seeing haven't been particularly fast.
Quote from: GS on February 22, 2010, 12:04:20 PM
I have taken melatonin for several years now as a sleep aid. I had never heard anything negative about it. Obviously, if is is not good for Peyronies patients, I will find something else to help me sleep.
Try valerian. That stuff is extremely effective.
Quote from: slowandsteady on February 22, 2010, 02:46:08 PM
Some have found it makes autoimmune conditions worse. It may increase serotonin.
You are correct, high levels of serotonin can be found in many pathological diseases. High serotonin levels can also lead to fibrosis. No time to look up sources now, but the info is out there.
Quote from: slowandsteady on February 22, 2010, 02:46:08 PM
You might want to try glycine as a sleep aid; I find it works great, and it has some studies behind it.
I've never heard that glycine helped with sleep. I do know that it is antifibrotic, and makes up about 35% of the collagen matrix. Since the tunica albuginea is mostly made up of collagen, taking glycine will probably help.
slowandsteady, didn't you post a while ago about having myofascial trigger points? I bet you are serotonin-dominant. The proper medical tests can determine this. It could be the primary source of your ailments.
Quote from: slowandsteady on February 21, 2010, 11:11:31 AM
Serotonin induced TGF-beta 1 by quite a lot, I was surprised to find.
Thanks for that link, that's really something. I recently found out that I'm serotonin-dominant. This helps to explain a lot.
Glycine study (//http://). I love the stuff.
slowandsteady, you posted a while back about muscle knots, have you noticed any improvement in that area, particularly since taking glycine?
Also, misformatted link in your original post, reposted here for the benefit of others:
Glycine study repost (http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118590930/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0)
Glycine can be calming because it prevents overstimulation of the NMDA receptors, which can be working overtime in stressed-out people and continue working well into the night, affecting quality of sleep.
My muscle knots have gotten much better, but I have been attributing that to taking magnesium (glycinate) and potassium iodide (not that I'm necessarily right).
Quote from: slowandsteady on March 31, 2010, 01:40:09 AM
My muscle knots have gotten much better, but I have been attributing that to taking magnesium (glycinate) and potassium iodide (not that I'm necessarily right).
Glad to hear it. For me the worsening of muscle trigger points was inseparable from worsening of Peyronies Disease symptoms and a general state of inflammation and anxiety.
The interesting overlap between magnesium, glycine, potassium, and iodine is that they all play a role in calcium function (possibly by preventing calcium from rushing into a cell and causing overexcitation). Magnesium, through its action as a natural calcium channel blocker; glycine, through its action on the NMDA receptor and associated glutamate-potentiated excitation of calcium; potassium, through similar electrolyte actions as magnesium; and iodine, through its role in thyroid function (and therefore, regulation of calcium). Could be a stretch but I did notice a relationship there. I tried taking calcium a few times and it would always lead to worsening of muscle cramps and anxiety.
Taking vitamin D really helped with the muscle issues as well, it's another calcium-related compound.
Slow and Steady-- You should look into cupping, and accu-punture for you muscle knots Lenny
I am on a SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor) called lexapro, which causes my serotonin to linger more in my brain. And I also have a lot of muscle knots all over my back and I am only 19 years old. I can't make sense of what you guys are saying, but can the lexapro be making my peyronies and muscle knots worse? I'm sorry I don't understand everything you guys are talking about. You guys are obviously very knowledgable and I'm not. I have noticed my peyronies has gotten worse, but I'm believing that's because I stopped taking L-arginine and discontinued ved therapy, which I'm getting back into asap.
Quote from: despise on April 01, 2010, 03:46:23 AM
I am on a SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor) called lexapro, which causes my serotonin to linger more in my brain. And I also have a lot of muscle knots all over my back and I am only 19 years old. I can't make sense of what you guys are saying, but can the lexapro be making my peyronies and muscle knots worse? I'm sorry I don't understand everything you guys are talking about. You guys are obviously very knowledgable and I'm not. I have noticed my peyronies has gotten worse, but I'm believing that's because I stopped taking L-arginine and discontinued ved therapy, which I'm getting back into asap.
That is exactly the assertion here. Any type of neurotransmitter imbalance is going to have serious impacts on your health. SSRIs are known to affect libido and sensitivity. Other research posted here indicates a connection between serotonin and inflammation. Some studies have also found high serotonin levels in people with fibromyalgia and other myalgic conditions (some have found low levels too, so caveat emptor). And finally, when L-tryptophan was banned for sale in the US, it was because some people taking it developed an incurable disease called Eisophilia Myalgia Syndrome (note the term "myalgia," meaning muscle pain). It's not known whether the syndrome was due to the L-tryptophan itself or impurities introduced during the manufacturing process. But it's intriguing that the symptoms of Serotonin Syndrome (a potentially fatal condition caused by too much serotonin) include muscle pain.
So basically, there's a lot of overlap between serotonin excess and muscle issues. Like everything else, it's probably a multifactorial issue (i.e. I posted below about the potential role calcium hypersensitivity in muscle knots). But there is some evidence for serotonin having a role in muscle pain and inflammation.
For most psychiatrists, the default response to a depressive patient is to prescribe an SSRI, and I have no idea why. When I was working on my psych degree I couldn't figure out why there were so many SSRI drugs but so few drugs that worked the other way around. When a psychiatrist prescribes an SSRI, they are assuming that you need to be calmed down, but instead, you might need more of the stimulatory neurotransmitters like dopamine. I've often wondered if the real function of SSRIs is simply to sedate patients and get them to stop asking difficult questions.
SSRIs can be extremely harmful if the patient's neurotransmitter balance is already shifted towards serotonin. Serotonin needs to be balanced out by the catacholamines (dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine). They compete for uptake by the brain (there is only so much bandwidth available for neurotransmitters). Instead of handing out SSRIs like candy, these so-called professionals should be testing their patient's neurotransmitter levels via urinalysis of metabolites like 5-hydroxyindoleacetate (5-HIA, a product of serotonin breakdown), vanilmandelate (a product of dopamine breakdown), and homovanillate (a product of epi/norepi breakdown).
Many labs can run these kind of tests. One such lab is NeuroScience (http://neurorelief.com). Their Neuro-Adrenal profile also checks other neurotransmitters like GABA and stress hormones like cortisol. If you're taking an SSRI without knowing which neurotransmitters you actually need, it could be making your symptoms worse.
I've been through these types of tests and the info they provide is absolutely priceless. PM me if you want more info on my specific case. I've never taken SSRIs but I did take 5-HTP for a while and I never want to feel that way again. Also, see my thread Amino acid testing and therapy (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,1156.0.html) for more info on how amino acid function is related to Peyronies Disease (and some thoughts on your idea about taking arginine). Neurotransmitters like serotonin are also made from amino acids. Just another reason why people should be running to their doctor to get these tests instead of wondering WTF is wrong with them (no offense) and taking random supplements based on obscure medical research.
I've also seen people try to discontinue long-term SSRI prescriptions and it's not pretty. Feelings of electrical shocks in your head, heart palpitations, vomiting... they're some pretty nasty drugs in my opinion. I'm sure 100 people will come out of the woodwork to tell me that SSRIs are really helpful and kept them from committing suicide, etc. Everyone's brain is different. I'm just trying to put some information out there so people can make informed decisions. Don't guess, test.
I would agree with Alex that not enough testing is done in making diagnoses and determining treatment. I have had some rather broad nutritional testing done and it has proven very valuable. So I second his suggestions in this regard. How to make it happen, however, is the problem. If one has the money to find and hire a cooperative physician, no problem. But if one is at the mercy of public care or some sort of health plan, well, tough luck. - George
Quote from: George999 on April 02, 2010, 03:36:42 PMHow to make it happen, however, is the problem. If one has the money to find and hire a cooperative physician, no problem. But if one is at the mercy of public care or some sort of health plan, well, tough luck.
Very good point. For us Americans, maybe recent health care change will shake things up for the better. What happened to me is that I finally just gave up on clueless MDs and went to a naturopath. It cost a lot of money but instead of being a know-it-all and rushing me out so he could see the next patient, he listened to what I was going through and read the research that I presented with interest. We ended up doing a few different tests that gave me some extremely useful information that directly guided changes to my supplementation and nutrition.
These types of tests can actually be ordered directly from certain websites like Integrative Psychiatry. They are still expensive, and your only partner in interpretation is named Google, but at least you won't have to wade through the health system (at great expense) to find the right doctor.
slowandsteady posted a good link on the Amino acid testing and therapy (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,1156.0.html) thread. For a $75 membership you can get a very thorough amino acid profile for just over $100. Some hospitals will do the blood draw for a small fee, or even for free.
These meds are prescribed to women who have capsular contracture after breast augmentation (hard scar tissue that forms around the implant). They think the inhibition of the leukotrienes by these meds is what decreases inflammation and scar tissue.
I'm wondering if anyone here is on them & got Peyronies Disease anyway. It's an interesting idea, but accolate is a pain to take (2 hrs w/o food, etc) and there have been cases of liver toxicity and death from liver damage. I'm not sure if you need blood tests while taking this.
I am wondering if anyone around here has tried mega doses of Astaxanthin. There are some pretty amazing studies out there showing *extreme* antioxidant/anti-inflammatory capabilities. I have been following it for a while and am planning to start messing around with it shortly.
Quote
Mol Nutr Food Res. 2011 Jan;55(1):150-65. doi: 10.1002/mnfr.201000414. Epub 2010 Nov 18.
Potential health-promoting effects of astaxanthin: a high-value carotenoid mostly from microalgae.
Yuan JP, Peng J, Yin K, Wang JH.
Guangdong Provincial Key Laboratory of Marine Resources and Coastal Engineering, School of Marine Sciences, Sun Yat-Sen University, Guangzhou, PR China. yuanjp@mail.sysu.edu.cn
Abstract
The ketocarotenoid astaxanthin can be found in the microalgae Haematococcus pluvialis, Chlorella zofingiensis, and Chlorococcum sp., and the red yeast Phaffia rhodozyma. The microalga H. pluvialis has the highest capacity to accumulate astaxanthin up to 4-5% of cell dry weight. Astaxanthin has been attributed with extraordinary potential for protecting the organism against a wide range of diseases, and has considerable potential and promising applications in human health. Numerous studies have shown that astaxanthin has potential health-promoting effects in the prevention and treatment of various diseases, such as cancers, chronic inflammatory diseases, metabolic syndrome, diabetes, diabetic nephropathy, cardiovascular diseases, gastrointestinal diseases, liver diseases, neurodegenerative diseases, eye diseases, skin diseases, exercise-induced fatigue, male infertility, and HgCl₂-induced acute renal failure. In this article, the currently available scientific literature regarding the most significant activities of astaxanthin is reviewed.
Copyright © 2011 WILEY-VCH Verlag GmbH & Co. KGaA, Weinheim.
PMID: 21207519 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
It's really cheap stuff, which is a nice bonus. I just starting popping these again recently. I've tried substituting Astaxanthin for ubiquinol at one time but went back to ubiquinol when my pain came back. Now the pain is still not gone and I'm going to try Astaxanthin again, but stick with it for longer this time. I really need something to turn this tide of inflammation.
What is considered a mega dose of astaxanthin? Are you going to take the mega dose yourself George? And also continue taking Ubiquinol?
If you don't mind me asking George, but what does your current oral regime consist of?
What I am reading would seem to indicate that it takes at least 8mg a day of this stuff to be effective. I haven't even ordered the stuff yet. I have taken it before with no effect, but I was only taking 6mg 2X/week. At this point I am thinking about taking 4mg 4X/day. I heard about it from Dr Mercola on the Dr Oz show. He swears by it along with Ubiquinol and Fish Oil. So I just have to give it a fair try.
I am currently using only Ubiquinol for the Peyronie's issue. I have stopped Pentox temporarily due to needing to deal with a fungal infection. Since Pentox has an immune suppression effect and it will take me a month to kill off this long standing fungal skin infection (years longstanding), I am stopping Pentox until I get it thoroughly killed. I finally got tired of it and recently identified it as being fungal (multiple doctors couldn't figure out what it was, but told me not to worry about it). Sometimes I don't know what we pay doctors for, but I guess they are not anymore infallible than the rest of us. Of course I am taking a number of other supplements including D3, but none that directly affect Peyronies. I am mostly trying to attack hypertension at this point, and I like Astaxanthin in relation to that as well. - George
George - I've stuck with pentox for a couple of years now, and I definitely agree with your immunity comments. I have tended to pick up a few colds last year and it's no fun. It could be due to my fidgety nature (i often touch my face etc so could be getting colds due to that). I'm thinking of giving pentox six more months in combination with daily traction, then having a break at that point to see where I am. I have notived a gradual improvement over two years now, so obviously something I've done in regards to my treatment regimen is working. I took pictures to make sure its not all in my head. I'm hoping that with this traction push, I can effectively say goodbye to peyuronie's being much of an issue. The hinging that I originall had when I joined is gone etc. Improvements can be so slow though, that it's hard to truly appreciate them for what they are.
I've written about the similarities between plantar fasciitis (PF) and Peyronies Disease. They are both instances of 1) trapped inflammation 2) involving scar tissue buildup and 3) involving tissues containing types 1 and 3 collagen.
Looking into treatments for PF, I came across some anecdotal reports of individuals using guaifenesin. Guaifenesin has also been used off-label to treat fibromyalgia (such treatment is controversial (http://web.mit.edu/london/www/guai.html)).
Anyway, I decided to give it a try for PF, using the slow release form recommended in the Dr. St. Amand protocol. Much to my surprise it seemed to work wonders. The foot pain went away, and the plantar fascia got that itchy feeling you get when tissue is healing. Now, this is one person's report, not a controlled trial. Maybe it would have gone away anyway (I've had it for about 15 months and went through physical therapy in Jan/Feb), but my gut instinct is that it really helped.
If anyone wants to give it a shot for Peyronies Disease, I used the Mucinex brand, starting at 600 mg/twice daily. I've since cut back to just 300 mg in the mornings. The dosing guidelines for congestion are up to 1200 mg/twice daily, so those smaller doses should be safe, though of course I am not a doctor.
Its certainly dirt cheap and relatively safe, at least for short term use. I would certainly be interesting to see its affects on acute flare ups of pain. It is apparently known to have neurological effects as well as other interesting modes of action. - George
Sounds very interesting... BUT
i would not want to be the first one to test it, because you also find:
QuoteGuaifenesin's neurological properties first became known in the late 1940s, and it is widely used in veterinary medicine to induce and maintain anesthesia in horses and llamas. In contrast to other propanediol drugs used for this purpose, guaifenesin has less hemolytic activity (i.e., less destruction of red blood cells) and is more soluble in water.
It would be interesting to get a follow up after testing it.
Luc
I am somehow confused regarding this medicine. According to:
http://health.yahoo.net/goldcontent/guaifenesin (http://health.yahoo.net/goldcontent/guaifenesin)
is used mainly for treating cough.
On Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaifenesin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaifenesin)
As I understand from there is a natural medicine.
QuoteTreatment of fibromyalgia
Because of its uricosuric effect, guaifenesin was chosen in the 1990s for the experimental guaifenesin protocol – a treatment for fibromyalgia. Proponents of the guaifenesin protocol believe that it treats fibromyalgia by removing excess phosphate from the body. However, a consumer alert on the Fibromyalgia Network's website[10] states that Dr. St. Amand's claims of guaifenesin's effects on fibromyalgia are groundless, and cites double-blind research by Robert Bennett, M.D., which found no significant differences between guaifenesin and a placebo in terms of any effect on fibromyalgia or its markers.[11]. Of note, the study by Bennett was completed in 1995. Besides the small numbers (16 guaifenesin, 15 placebo) and failure to warn patients about the blocking effects of salicylates other flaws in the project have been fully discussed by St. Amand (project consultant) on website, fibromyalgiatreatment.com.
Guaifenesin has not been approved by the FDA for the treatment of fibromyalgia, but no other clinical studies have been reported. The protocol has been adopted by many patients because of the anecdotal evidence of success.
Is plantar fasciitis = fibromyalgia?
How it connects to Peyronie's?
James
QuoteIs plantar fasciitis = fibromyalgia?
How it connects to Peyronie's?
The connection is that Plantar Fasciitis, Fibromyalgia, and Peyronie's are ALL DEGENERATIVE DISEASES with INFLAMMATORY, QUASI AUTO-IMMUNE factors involved. Thus, any treatment that works on one of them becomes interesting in terms of potential treatment value for any of the others on the list. That does NOT necessarily mean it would work. It simply makes it something to try and cross off the list. I am really using the same approach, although I prefer to work from the common root cause which I view as being the blood sugar/insulin factor. - George
Other similarities between plantar fasciitis and Peyronie's is that diseases involve dysfunction specifically in type I and III collagen and both the physical structure of the plantar fascia and the tunica albuginea trap inflammation.
Guaifenesin is typically used for thinning the mucus in the lungs when someone has a cold, but for me it just happens to work really well for plantar fasciitis. It might be worthwhile for others to do a quick trial to see if it is helpful for their Peyronies Disease. My Peyronies Disease is thankfully so much in the background lately that I can't tell.
From trying to understand how to categorise this medicine I come over:
http://web.mit.edu/london/www/guai.html (http://web.mit.edu/london/www/guai.html)
QuoteThe Truths and Myths of the use of Guaifenesin for Fibromyalgia
or
Guaifenesin: One Medicine, Several Effects
by Mark London
slowandsteady
As you are taking this drug, maybe will be interesting for you to read the document (if you didn't read it yet).
How you categorise this medicine? As pain killer or something else?
James
Hello,
at first, sorry for my bad english. I am from germany. I am 35 years old. Since 6 month i have IPP with pain during a erection but at the moment without a deformation. (fingers crossed)
What is the best way to stop the IPP?
I try since 5 days cialis 5mg / 1 day. The morning erections are so strong, that i wake up always from the pain.
When i read this:
http://peyronies-disease-help.com/peyronies-treatment-cialis/
I have some worries. Should i stay on Cialis or what should i do?
Thank your for advice.
Warm Regards
Marc
Marc
Welcome to the forum, even that I suppose you was preferring not to be here.
You are stating that you have IPP without deformity. Is a doctor that diagnosed you? How he know it is Peyronie's (IPP)?
If yes, he had not proposed you any treatmet except the Cialis?
If you will give us some more details, forum members will be able to give you some advice.
In any case, if you will reduce the Cialis intake to 2.5mg daily (cut the 5mg pill in two peaces) it may help with the morning erections to be less strong and painfull.
Regarding your English, don't worry, it is enough clear, my English is not better.
James
Hello James,
thank you very much for you quick reply. I appreciate it.
Yes, you are right with "preferring not to be here" but thank you for the warm welcome.
Ok, I will cut the pill and take only 2.5mg.
My Story:
A doctor (urologist) diagnosed me 6 month ago, but without sono. I told him, that i have a pain during my erection and sometimes its possible to touch a little plaque or something else.
Then he touched my penis and he said, well, you have IPP. When it is not gone in the next 6 month, please come again.
Last week I had my second visit after 6 month. I told him again, that I still feel the pain during my erection.
He asked me: "do you have a already a deformity?".
I said "No".
He said: "Ok, then take Vitamin E."
I said: I do already since 5 month. I found out that Vitamin could help..or not...(placebo etc. i know)
I asked him: Do you really think I have IPP or could this be something else.
He said: No, I am pretty sure its IPP. I can feel the plaque on your penis...
After he said to me, I should try Vitamin E, I knew, he is not the right urogolist for me.
The last 7 days I read everything about IPP / Peyronie's Disease.
5 days ago, I found on some websites, that cialis might be an option for me. I talked to my family doctor and I asked him for cialis. In germany you need a recipe to get it.
I hope I answered all your questions?
I am so scared about the future.
I have next week a second date with a other urologist (he is more friendly but no IPP specialist). In one month (its not possible to get a date before) I have a date with a IPP specialist in germany......but when I read across the web, there is really no hope or isnt it? Maybe 1 month could be to late. I would like to do everything what I can do, because I know, when the plaque is chronically, the deformity is close.
Thanks for giving me advice, what I can do at the moment, without a deformity but in the first step of Peyronie's Disease.
I appreciate any help...
Hi marc, and welcome.
I think I read you already once in a german forum.
You should do some reading here, because all the information I gave you there comes from here.
The problem with the help site you are talking about, ...com its a site that wants to sell its treatment.
Now I am NOT saying everything there is wrong, but they have their own product line, their own excercises and they sell everything.
if you want to do some stretching, you have to buy their cd. They also have a deal with neprinol, so basically they want to make money.
I think I read there that a VED is no good, but here people are getting good results. ( they want to sell their penis excericise cd instead)
YOU have to make your own opinion.
I'm just saying, that lots of people here have had good results with VED. so do not take everything you read in the net.
Luc
Marc
I will second Luciano regarding websites that are giving advices and selling products to implement them. Have many websites in this style.
Regarding treatments, I am proposing you to read this forum. Have huge knowledge accumulated during the years that this forum exists and also knowledge accumulated by the veterans on this forum before this forum was established.
Your first doctor is typical one that is NOT Peyronie's specialist in my opinion. My first doctor was the same. The second one feel the plaques and also made me ultrasound to be sure and to see the exact locations and shape of the plaques.
Hope your second doctor will be different than the first.
When you will see him, ask for Pentox prescription. Pentox has helped many and is helping me also to stop the progression of the disease and in many cases had also reversed the disease. L-Arginine is also an important component in the treatment. Have other supplements like like CoQ10 and Ubiquinol that helped many. Low dose Cialis is also an important component for the treatment. Download the relevant documentation regarding Pentox and show to your doctor.
Don't lose time and begin a treatment, but one month (to see the IPP specialist) is not long time.
I will second Luciano again regarding VED. VED has and is helping many to keep the penis healthy.
I am sure that you will have other children if you will want to. Regarding hope, there is hope!!! Many people was cured from Peyronie's. Unfortunately most of them after they solved they Peyronie's problems are disappearing and don't find necessary to continue to be on this forum. Your Peyronie's is in the acute phase, in the beginning, so you have good chances to overcome this disease.
I would like to say also that have many researches concentrating in solutions for this disease. One of them is Xiaflex, we hope it will be available by the end of this year.
Again, just don't lose hope!!!
James
Mark,
The fact you have no deformity is great, don't panic. I would encourage you to search here and start something called the PAV cocktail. The "P" is for Pentox which is a drug you will probably need a prescription for in Germany. This can help with the pain you are experiencing. Also look at the threads here on traction and VED. This can help to prevent and deformity from occurring or at least minimizing any deformity.
Your English is excellent by the way.
Hi Mark,
I got IPP at age 29. I too experienced pain but I had (and have) some minor deformity. I took Pentoxyfylline for 8 months during which time the pain went away completely. I am now 33 and have continued healing in the last 3 years, The deformity is very minor.
Also, don't worry about fertility. My wife got pregnant with my now beautiful 19-month old daughter while I was taking pentox. Turns out that pentox increases sperm motility.
Best of luck,
Skjaldborg
Hi all,
at first, thank you very much for you kind words. I appreciate any of them.
The german name for pentox is trental.
My Questions:
1. Would you take pentox and cialis together (cocktail) or should I try them one by one or only pentox?
Some of the forum use only pentax instead of the cocktail...its a bit unclear for me. I know, I have to make my own experience but I am very uncertain. Thank you.
2. When I have my date with the second urologist next week, I need some research documents about pentox and IPP. Because I am pretty sure, he don´t know it.
@Luciano:
Yes, you refered me this forum. Maybe you have some research documents about trental and ipp in german language? Where did you got your VED?
@James:
Thank you very much again
@lwillisjr:
Thank you :)
@Skjaldborg:
Congratulation and thank you. Did you took pentox alone or as a cocktail?
warm regards
marc
Well, pentox is also pentox or pentoxifylin in german.. its the "Wirkstoff"
It is also sold as trental by aventis in the united states, other companies have other names "generika". (Like hexapentox)
I do not have any research in german, because even german doctors publish in english. (because they want to publish in known medical journals, and there it has to be english.)
As for the ved i found it in great britain.
http://www.imedicare.eu/products.html
When you order it in german, (by clicking on the german flag it is more expensive) (399 euros)
I ordered it in britain from the english page. There it was 239 pounds which is 299 euros. Plus shipping is about 25 euros
DO NOT BUY THE BATTERY OPERATED ONE!!!
Luc
I took pentox with L-Arginine.
-Skjaldborg
I am taking Pentox 2*400mg daily with the meals. I begin to take Pentox 400mg one daily for a week and then increased to 2*400mg daily because I was afraid from side effects. No side effects at the moment, 3 months on.
I am taking low dose Cialis (approximately 3mg by braking the 20mg, can't find the 5mg where I am living now, will increase to 5mg to see the results) in the evening, after dinner.
I will add L-Arginine when I will find here or CoQ10.
And of course daily VED (30 minutes, one cylinder, Jackp protocol developed by Old Man).
James
Quote from: Skjaldborg on May 03, 2012, 10:56:50 AM
I took pentox with L-Arginine.
-Skjaldborg
Same but use in conjunction with traction.
Hi,
I use now since 6 days Cialis 2,5 mg. At the moment is the pain with "NO" erection (normal condition) stronger as before and I can feel 1 new plaque. Do you think this comes from the cialis? Maybe I should dont use it anymore? I am scared a bit...thank you.
Mark
Don't be in panic because the 2.5mg Cialis can't make you new plaques!!!
Your new plaques may be a natural development of your Peyronie's.
I am taking now 4mg Cialis daily after four months on low dose Viagra and I think Cialis is better.
James
Mark:
One German mention of Pentox for IPP is in the German Potaba website (http://www.glenwood.de/deutsch/erkrankungen/induratio-penis-plastica/induratio.html). There Glenwood acknowledges that Pentox has "Effekt in kontrollierter, doppel-blinder Studie". There also Glenwood boasts that only Potaba has "Zulassung (BfArM)". Until the Bundesinstitut für Arzneimittel und Medizinprodukte approves Pentox for IPP, German insurances won't pay for it for IPP, and worse, conservative German urologists won't prescribe it for IPP. Germany is Potaba-land.
Show your German urologist both San Francisco studies (Brant 2006 and Smith 2011) as well as the Tehran study (Safarinejad 2009) and hope they add up to a prescription. Foo on the insurance. Pentox is cheap in Germany, 100 Stada 600mg Retardtableten costing just €18.72.
Hi everyone
I had a Nesbit procedure in 2008 that caused me a fibrotic plaque, but this was not the only problem: from that moment I do not have fuller erections as before.
Last week I decided to try pentox, 600mg twice a day, but I started to have nausea (revulsion of the stomach) and I had to stop it
Is there anything I can do to cancel this side effect??
I have a couple of questions more:
1. I heard about dr Levine's method: what can be real expectations? fuller erections? reduction of the plaque? increase of sexual desire?
2. What can I take in your opinion to improve erections and increase sexual desire? I tried Cialis but erections are more or less the same, I mean the penis is stiff but still not lenghten as it should (because of that bloody plaque)
By the way, I'm using a VED and I can reach complete full erections, but once I stop it the effect disappears (also using a costriction ring the erection decreases a little bit, is not 100%)
Hope to receive some help, sorry for my poor English
@YYY
I try to answer your first question about pentox. Me 2 take pentox since one month back - 400mg twice a day but ALWAYS with food. In the beginning I had side effects from the stomach (3x400mg) but I reduced it to 2x400mg a day and now no trouble with the supervisor down under.
I hope someone else here can answer the other questions.
Quote from: yyy on May 08, 2012, 03:27:56 PM
Hi everyone
I had a Nesbit procedure in 2008 that caused me a fibrotic plaque, but this was not the only problem: from that moment I do not have fuller erections as before.
Last week I decided to try pentox, 600mg twice a day, but I started to have nausea (revulsion of the stomach) and I had to stop it
Is there anything I can do to cancel this side effect??
I have a couple of questions more:
1. I heard about dr Levine's method: what can be real expectations? fuller erections? reduction of the plaque? increase of sexual desire?
2. What can I take in your opinion to improve erections and increase sexual desire? I tried Cialis but erections are more or less the same, I mean the penis is stiff but still not lenghten as it should (because of that bloody plaque)
By the way, I'm using a VED and I can reach complete full erections, but once I stop it the effect disappears (also using a costriction ring the erection decreases a little bit, is not 100%)
Hope to receive some help, sorry for my poor English
Thanks for your reply, I really do appreciate it :)
yyy
Welcome to the forum. (I am sure you was preferring not to be here).
Regarding Pentox, you mean 600mg or 400mg?
I am taking 2*400mg daily but with a few rules.
I am taking them one in the morning one in the evening, not later than 05:30 PM, maximum 06:00 PM.
Taking them during the meal, I mean eating half of the meal, taking the 400mg Pentox and continuing my meal.
I get this advise from the forum and is working, no side effects.
When started Pentox I was taking 400mg daily in the morning only. After one week increased to 2*400mg daily.
If even 400mg daily make you side effects, take just one for longer time until your body get used to it, before increasing to two.
By the way, I was on 100mg daily aspirin and stopped for the first two weeks of Pentox.
Regarding question 1.
Dr. Levine method, what you mean? Can you detail?
Regarding question 2.
Cialis 20mg or Viagra 50mg (or Viagra 100mg) should help you with erections for intercourse. What dose of Cialis you have tried?
I am proposing you to get on a daily treatment that includes:
2*400mg Pentox (after your body will get used to it)
2.5mg Cialis (you can cut the 5mg in two pcs)
L-Arginine 1000mg (some experienced forum members preferring other supplements like CoQ10 or ubiquinol)
VED daily usage for 30 minutes, at the time that is comfortable to you. If you have one or three cylinders VED, follow the specific VED protocols developed by Old Man. Do it carefully, DO NOT OVERPUMP.
Finally I will advise you to spend time on the forum and read the topics that you think are relevant to you. It will give you knowledge and better tools to fight this disease.
All members
It is off topic but:
Try to restrict "Quote" to minimum necessary because it take place on the server.
It is not necessary to quote if you are answering to somebody by mentioning his name on the top and his post not down far away.
It is necessary to quote the specific sentence you are answering to if the question is too far down the topic, more clear and understandable.
James
Hi James, Thanks for your reply
- I tried a 600mg dose x 2 daily.
- I come from Italy. Here cialis costs 70 Us Dollars for 4 cps. It would be really expensive to take 2,5 mg per day, I don't know how I can solve this problem
- I tried 20mg cialis, penis is harder but not longer as when I use the pump...with the pump my penis is long as if I have not a plaque, but it works only with the pump
- About dr Levine, I meant the PAV cocktail
- For what concerns the pump, I've been using it for 6 months now, with that method that I read here (15 minutes total,5 minute for each step)
To be honest the only thing that causes me problems is the difference of lenght. I feel my penis can be longer than it appears now, and the pump demonstrate it. I just don't know I can reach this ;/ Really look forward to trying Xiaflex, I have the impression it could be my last chance to turn back as before the procedure
Quote from: james1947 on May 08, 2012, 05:29:05 PM
I am proposing you to get on a daily treatment that includes:
2*400mg Pentox (after your body will get used to it)
2.5mg Cialis (you can cut the 5mg in two pcs)
L-Arginine 1000mg (some experienced forum members preferring other supplements like CoQ10 or ubiquinol)
VED daily usage for 30 minutes, at the time that is comfortable to you. If you have one or three cylinders VED, follow the specific VED protocols developed by Old Man. Do it carefully, DO NOT OVERPUMP.
what can be the final purpose and results of that? Will the plaque decrease or what?
yyy
The final purpose of the treatment is to stop progression of the disease and to revers it.
Pentox is increasing the blood flow to the penis by modifying the red cells to be more flexible and move more easy especially to the small veins. This will increase the oxygen supply.
2.5mg Cialis is promoting nocturnal erection that is good for ED. The price of $US 70 is really high, I can get it here for $US 15. Is not fake, maybe smugled, I don't know. I had here problem with Pentox at $1,5 per pill, I have ordered from abroad, 15 cent per pill.
Maybe if you will tell us where you are located, someone can jump in and advice you regarding the Cialis high price.
L-Arginine is a supplement (used by body builders) that is helping with the blood flow and erection also. Unfortunately myself not using it, I can't find it locally.
The VED is keeping the penis healthy by forcing blood flow to the penis. In the beginning of my treatment I used just VED and I gain back 1.2cm in 6 weeks from the 5cm I have lost to the Peyronie's
You have to understand that all the treatment above is a marathon, don't expect fast results, even that some forum members get fast results.
James
I come from North Italy, Here generic Cialis or Viagra does not exist in pharmacies, so it's a big problem because I don't know trusted online pharmacies. Who can help me?
VED in 6 months gave me back only 0,5 cm, I would need more results
I don't know the on-line pharmacies available in Italy but be aware that (as I have read on the forum) you can't get medicines in Europe from outside the EU, they will be confiscated by the customs and you will be fined also.
Hope some Europe located members will jump in and give an advice.
Regarding VED, is a marathon. The gains are slow, as I have written in my previous post the 1.2cm gain (I have written wrong, the gain is from more than 6cm I have lost, from 18cm to 12cm and now 13cm) was in the first six weeks and in the following 4 months until now is static and no change. I am continuing because it is keeping the penis healthy and I am sure I will gain more during the time. I am using one cylinder VED, the 3 cylinders VED giving much better results from the lengthening point of view.
James
I'm also using the one cylinder, can you explain me more about the 3 cylinder VED? I bought My VED from fir.ma medical
yyy:
OK, the three cylinders are known as A small, B medium and C large sizes.
The small cylinder is designed to be rather small so the penis shaft is held in a confined and elongated shape helping to remold the curves/bends as well as helping in remove indentations.
The medium cylinder is designed to let the penis shaft expand in girth and length to further increase the size by allowing the extra room in the cylinder.
The large cylinder is designed larger so that the entire penis is allowed to expand to its fullest size with the vacuum pressure.
The VED board section shows various protocols based on the one cylinder as well as the three cylinder VEDs. There is also a topic/thread that lists how to make a three cylinder VED as some on the forum have done. Some have even adapted plastic tubing to make the two extra cylinders so the one cylinder then can be used as a three cylinder. I am sure that you can find the exact instructions they used and will be glad to share their expertise, etc.
Old Man
Thank you for your help, Old Man.
I'm gonna start pentox 2x400 and cialis 2,5 together with VED
The only thing I want is to gain something in lenght, I'm pretty sure the plaque will not decrease or soften...
I'll keep you updated ;)
The penis length reduction (18cm to 12cm) reported by James1947 is not so unusual for Peyronie's sufferers. It would seem to require a general loss of elasticity in the tunica albuginea, rather than localized plaques, to explain so much loss of length. In my own Peyronie's case there is not much curvature and not much indentation, but very much reduction in size (although I haven't the nerve to make the measurement). When all or most of the tunica albuginea is implicated in the disease, how can elasticity-restoring treatments that are aimed at particular locations, such as the Xiaflex injections, be right? I wonder how prevalent such non-localized Peyronie's cases are, and whether they're handled reasonably in clinical trials.
Pentox is giving me side effects.
I can accept them only if there's a real possibility to reduce plaque and curvature
If it is useful only to avoid worsening, I will stop it because plaque will not get worse, as it was caused only by surgery
Did anynone see results about curvature/plaque by taking pentox?
yyy
Pentox is giving side effects to some. How much you are taking daily and when?
I begin with 400mg daily in the morning with the meal, I eat half of the meal, takes 400mg Pentox pill with a cup of water, eat the second half of the meal.
After a week, I begin with 2*400mg daily, the second one in the evening meal not late than 5:30 PM (latest 6:00 PM), in the middle, same as in the morning.
Try it, it may work not to have side effects.
I can say that I am taking it for three months, so I am not expecting serious improvements before the end of first six months.
James
James
Pentox is giving me stomach pain, not always but somtimes
Hope it will reduce plaque and curvature a little after 6 months
yyy
I have tacked ones the Pentox not in the middle of my meal and it made also to me stomach pain.
How you are taking it regarding the meals?
Not connected to Peyronies, Valentino back on the podium ;D
James
Hey James. If you look at very my first post, you'll see that I quoted that same website. ;) I thought the criticism very well written. Fibromyalgia seems to be a deep rabbit hole, and if guaifenesin helps it, it may be by different mechanisms than it's supporters claim.
Still, for plantar fasciitis, when I take guaifenesin I feel the inflammation go away and an itchy healing sensation in my feet. Lately I've only taken it once a week or so for maintenance. I've also felt that same feeling yesterday in an area where I still have a touch of somewhat active Peyronies Disease.
It would be a shame if this works well but no one tries it.
For someone willing to give it a go, I'd recommend 1-3 days of taking 1200 mg of Mucinex in the morning, since that seems to work better than 600 mg 2x daily for my plantar fasciitis. It's extended release. This should be a safe dose for a few days (people on the guaifenesin protocol for fibromyalgia can be on it at this level for years).
Quote from: james1947 on April 09, 2012, 09:43:21 PM
From trying to understand how to categorise this medicine I come over:
http://web.mit.edu/london/www/guai.html (http://web.mit.edu/london/www/guai.html)
QuoteThe Truths and Myths of the use of Guaifenesin for Fibromyalgia
or
Guaifenesin: One Medicine, Several Effects
by Mark London
slowandsteady
As you are taking this drug, maybe will be interesting for you to read the document (if you didn't read it yet).
How you categorise this medicine? As pain killer or something else?
James
Hi slowandsteady
Yes you are right, the same website. I didn't notice while click on the "blue" words in your post lead me to the same place. :-[
How are you categorising Guaifenesin?
Is a pain killer, anti inflammatory medicine, natural anti inflammatory medication or something else?
James
I'm not sure. I see that there is a trial in progress of guaifenesin as a muscle relaxant for upper back pain and spasming (NCT01562548 (http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01562548)).
My guess is that if it were only an anti-inflammatory, I would not get that itchy healing feeling in my feet. I never got that with just ibuprofen.