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Peyronies Disease TREATMENT Discussion Boards => Oral Treatments for Peyronie's Disease => Topic started by: Pfract on August 08, 2022, 09:09:24 PM

Title: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: Pfract on August 08, 2022, 09:09:24 PM
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35430575/



QuoteAbstract

BACKGROUND Peyronie's disease is a chronic inflammatory disease involving the tunica albuginea of the penile corpora cavernosa. Conservative medical treatment includes oral therapy, intralesional injections, and physical treatment. No cases of Peyronie's disease with complete plaque regression after conservative medical treatment are described in the literature. CASE REPORT Case 1: A 50-year-old man presented with penile pain, combined penile curvature (left dorso-lateral), a palpable nodule, and normal penile rigidity. The patient underwent multimodal therapy with oral antioxidants, topical diclofenac gel, and periodic perilesional penile injections with pentoxifylline. At follow-up after over 3 years of multimodal treatment, the patient no longer had penile deformity or pain. Ultrasound imaging did not show any area affected by disease and plaque could no longer be observed. Case 2: A 55-year-old man presented with penile lichen sclerosus, dorsal penile curvature with onset about 6 months before, penile plaque, no penile pain, and normal penile rigidity. He underwent multimodal therapy with oral antioxidants, topical diclofenac gel, and periodic perilesional penile injections with pentoxifylline. At follow-up after over 3 years of multimodal treatment, he presented a dorsal curvature of the penis of about 5°, similar to his condition prior to the onset of congenital penile curvature. Ultrasound no longer showed plaque. CONCLUSIONS This study showed that multimodal combined antioxidant treatment had satisfactory results. However, to accomplish this, we deem it essential to have a correct ultrasound assessment that is performed with a sufficiently advanced machine by an operator with extensive experience in the field.

I found this interesting even tho this was just two patients. Surprised to read about injecting Pentox into the penis! This is a new finding for me.

Anybody new about this?
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: nemo on August 09, 2022, 01:47:38 AM
I wish they would clearly state what oral antioxidants they were employing, and in what amounts.

nemo
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: Tobyg on August 09, 2022, 01:56:30 AM
The ultrasound does not work for peyronie, my 2 plaques also disappeared and my penis continued to get worse.
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: bentoboy on August 10, 2022, 06:17:40 PM
"antioxidants oral propolis 600 mg, bilberry 160 mg, silymarin 400 mg, ginkgo biloba 250 mg, L-carnitine 1000 mg, coenzyme Q10 100 mg, and vitamin E 30 mg daily; topical diclofenac gel 4% twice daily; and peri-plaque penile injection of pentoxifylline 100 mg with a 30 G needle every 2 weeks for 6 months."

This is fascinating. Now I'm wondering whether I should try this treatment out and see what happens. Has anyone started using some of these things?
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: thegreycat on August 11, 2022, 04:48:36 AM
Quote from: bentoboy on August 10, 2022, 06:17:40 PM
"antioxidants oral propolis 600 mg, bilberry 160 mg, silymarin 400 mg, ginkgo biloba 250 mg, L-carnitine 1000 mg, coenzyme Q10 100 mg, and vitamin E 30 mg daily; topical diclofenac gel 4% twice daily; and peri-plaque penile injection of pentoxifylline 100 mg with a 30 G needle every 2 weeks for 6 months."

This is fascinating. Now I'm wondering whether I should try this treatment out and see what happens. Has anyone started using some of these things?

Anyone know where to get Propolis, Bilberry, Silymarin, Biloba? Got the rest (minus the Pentox injections obviously)
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: HenH on August 11, 2022, 05:11:27 AM
In the Netherlands you can get them at homeopathic / naturepathic pharmacies or supplement stores. I guess this is the same in the UK?

@Pfract: thnx for sharing! Did not know about pentoxifylline injections...
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: blex on August 11, 2022, 09:56:06 AM
Quote from: thegreycat on August 11, 2022, 04:48:36 AM
Anyone know where to get Propolis, Bilberry, Silymarin, Biloba? Got the rest (minus the Pentox injections obviously)

Got all of these from amazon. Did nothing though.
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: nemo on August 11, 2022, 01:14:53 PM
Yeah, guys, I wouldn't go spend a bunch of money on these specific antioxidants. Supplements have never proven to achieve any real good with Peyronies Disease - and Dr. Trost has said as much. The notion that something you're taking orally is going to selectively reverse scarring in your penis and not everywhere else in your body doesn't really make sense. He doesn't even believe Pentox offers any benefit.

I think you'd be smarter to just eat foods abundant in anti-oxidants like blueberries, strawberries, etc., etc. - get the benefits from food, not supplements. At least it's tastier than swallowing a handful of expensive capsules and tablets everyday.

Also, the Italians seem to pop out these Peyronie's focussed studies every couple years and the results never seem to get verified anywhere else. I'd just take it all with a grain of salt.

nemo
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: Fierarul on August 30, 2022, 11:50:19 AM

after 6 years of illness can something be done, I have a 5 mm nodule on the left side of the penis, and the curve is 15 degrees to the left, I wonder if it can get worse over time and if the erection will be affected
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: fartoolong on September 01, 2022, 06:19:48 PM
I could cry when I think how much money I have spent on supplements over the last 10 years and not one of them has made an iota of difference that I can tell over the longterm. Some like evening primrose oil in large dosage could make the plaque seem much softer, but only for half a day.

I do think there is a lot to be said for antioxidants, but it comes through eating a variety of the right food types every day for months, while blocking any and all foods that can cause problems.
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: hope794 on September 18, 2022, 10:13:54 AM
100% NOT recommended. I tried this "cure" and had no results at all. The ultrasound said i was improving but my penis got worse and worse, my curve worsened and my penis shortened. My ED worsened as well. BE AWARE.
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: FlatteningTheCurve on September 19, 2022, 09:40:13 AM
I think the main thing to keep in mind here is that antioxidants alone cannot cure Peyronies Disease. Antioxidants may contribute to reducing the likelihood of continued inflammation or flare ups but there is limited proof of this. That is, it might contribute to not making the condition worse, not necessarily improving it.

There have been a few studies that have looked into the impact of antioxidants in combination with various injections. They have found some evidence of a greater positive effect (e.g. reduced curvature and pain) for the people who have been taking antioxidants and receiving injections compared to those who only received injections. See for example:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1365-2605.2011.01219.x

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/10.1080/13685538.2018.1474195

https://www.nature.com/articles/3900880

This is only an indication of a correlation but further studies are needed.

I have been taking a few antioxidant supplements but mainly changed my diet somewhat to include more natural antioxidants. I have done this together with traction and VED in 2020. I then had Verapamil injections for almost a year and now I am back on traction and VED.

I have seen good improvements over the course of all of this, but I am not saying that this is due to antioxidants. Ultimately, there is no evidence that I had not seen these improvements had I not included antioxidants as a part of my regime.

All in all, I doubt that taking a few supplements or changing your diet will hurt you, but do not expect it to 'cure' Peyronies Disease on its own.
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: martin111 on December 04, 2022, 08:07:20 PM
Hi. I can see one opinion above, but has anyone else used this therapy so that can share results and experience? I mean especially pentox injections. Antioxidants are quite extensively discussed already on the forum. Thanks.

BTW I have also found following web page, seem to be related to the study from first post: https://www.curvaturadelpene.it/terapia/casi-di-studio-galleria-foto
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: hope4thebest on December 05, 2022, 09:59:47 AM
Quote from: nemo on August 11, 2022, 01:14:53 PM
Yeah, guys, I wouldn't go spend a bunch of money on these specific antioxidants. Supplements have never proven to achieve any real good with Peyronies Disease - and Dr. Trost has said as much. The notion that something you're taking orally is going to selectively reverse scarring in your penis and not everywhere else in your body doesn't really make sense. He doesn't even believe Pentox offers any benefit.

Also, the Italians seem to pop out these Peyronie's focussed studies every couple years and the results never seem to get verified anywhere else. I'd just take it all with a grain of salt.
No one is talking about selectively reversing problems only in the penis. Why would it? It should work anywhere in the body where there is similar disease process. I think the reasoning is very clear. Authors believe that the reason why we get Peyronie's is because we're in a state of increased oxidative stress and if we reduce it, the illness may slowly begin to heal on it's own.

The problem is that as always, most doctors aren't interested in producing such studies, because there is a "consensus" that flavonoids or anything deemed "natural" is just bogus alternative naturopathic nonsense. It's not quite true and the studies by this Italian group prove that. It's not the highest quality evidence, but it's hard to deny that they have an effect. In some cases, a very significant one. The problem is that nobody is interested in doing studies with something that won't be bringing them any money. This is how the current medical model is built. Big pharma companies have the money to do high volume, high quality studies, and even though the difference may only be 15% between placebo and control arms, it's still considered significant and effective and therefore recommended to patients, even though my guess is that pentox may be much more effective than that, we will probably never ever know, because it costs pennies, the patent is expired and nobody is going to do a good study to prove that it works beyond doubt.

Quote from: fartoolong on September 01, 2022, 06:19:48 PM
I could cry when I think how much money I have spent on supplements over the last 10 years and not one of them has made an iota of difference that I can tell over the longterm. Some like evening primrose oil in large dosage could make the plaque seem much softer, but only for half a day.

I do think there is a lot to be said for antioxidants, but it comes through eating a variety of the right food types every day for months, while blocking any and all foods that can cause problems.
Eating will never have the same effect, because you would have to eat ridiculous amounts of food to get such levels of antioxidants that is found in supplements. Of course, it's a good idea to eat well. I'm not saying that antioxidants would work for everyone. There probably are many different reasons why someone might get Peyronie's, but we should also keep in mind that these authors emphasize that treatments with multimodal therapy takes a loong time. Sometimes 3 years, to achieve complete regression. So it's just a piece of the puzzle. It is clear from their research that the most effective thing is not antioxidants, but specifically Pentoxi injections.

Quote from: hope794 on September 18, 2022, 10:13:54 AM
100% NOT recommended. I tried this "cure" and had no results at all. The ultrasound said i was improving but my penis got worse and worse, my curve worsened and my penis shortened. My Erectile Dysfunction worsened as well. BE AWARE.
Could you please elaborate what exactly were you taking? Which supplements or ointment? Did you do pentox injections?

Quote from: thegreycat on August 11, 2022, 04:48:36 AM
Anyone know where to get Propolis, Bilberry, Silymarin, Biloba? Got the rest (minus the Pentox injections obviously)
Authors mention in a different study that they used product called Propolberry-3P, I think you can order it from Italy, but I doubt it makes a huge difference from any other supplement.


And btw, there already are additional threads talking about the treatments from the same Italian group:
Pentox injection antioxidants:
https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,17834.0.html
Study with Diclofenac.:
https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,15516.0.html

Personally I'm thinking about trying all the antioxidants + diclofenac + try to convince my urologist to do pentoxi injections, although I know it won't be easy. I have really bad stomach issues and I'm pretty sure I won't be able to tolerate most, if not all of those antioxidants, so I see PTX injections as my only option right now.
Optimizing vitamins and minerals is another thing that I'm doing. @FlatteningTheCurve posted a very good study (thanks!!) showing lower levels of Cu, Mn, Fe, Zn in Peyronie's patients. I think that's definitely something to think about.
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: user1825 on January 04, 2023, 12:41:30 PM
Quote from: hope4thebest on December 05, 2022, 09:59:47 AM
Personally I'm thinking about trying all the antioxidants + diclofenac + try to convince my urologist to do pentoxi injections, although I know it won't be easy. I have really bad stomach issues and I'm pretty sure I won't be able to tolerate most, if not all of those antioxidants, so I see PTX injections as my only option right now.
Optimizing vitamins and minerals is another thing that I'm doing. @FlatteningTheCurve posted a very good study (thanks!!) showing lower levels of Cu, Mn, Fe, Zn in Peyronie's patients. I think that's definitely something to think about.

Any updates? My urologist said I could give it a try
Title: Re: Study - Complete Plaque Regression After Treatment with Antioxidants
Post by: hope4thebest on January 09, 2023, 11:31:15 AM
I will go to urologist in a few weeks and report back.