After seeing my urologist and taking pentox for 10 months (2x a day, 3 made me sick) my pain has went away. After being off of it for a few months i'd have some pain when erect, still a slight bend to the left (bend was never more than 20 degrees or so i'd say). I've always been active and in the gym but my diet was always lacking (as i'm slim, never paid too much attention to my diet), lots of fast food, meat, fried foods etc. Watched the Forks over Knives documentary in december. Made the switch on December 18th and haven't looked back. Feel great, haven't had any meat and only had dairy (cheese) a handful of times. Haven't really thought about my peyronie's until the other day when I noticed that it was straight as an arrow when erect, no pain either. Could just be coincidence but I feel great overall and I think that it's definitely helped it.
Sounds like great news. Do you know if you have any size loss?
Quote from: Hawk on March 20, 2013, 11:07:07 AM
Sounds like great news. Do you know if you have any size loss?
Girth seems to be the same, seems as with the straightening out the length might have improved a bit. Although my bend wasn't severe so the length improvement in marginal. I do still have some hour-glassing when going flaccid from an erection. I'll keep an eye on that and see if it improves.
Corvette,
Sometimes straightening can occur as Peyronies Disease progresses if you develop plaque on the long side. This happened to me and works somewhat like a Nesbit Plication. If such cases you lose length however. It seems that this is not what you experienced and that you have had some real resolution.
If you feel the PDS Forum helped you at all, you have an opportunity to give back by posting a somewhat detailed account in the Accounts of Improvement board. It would be great if your account included your age, degree of bend, treatments, life-style changes and your current outcome as posted here.
Thanks
Hawk
In my own experience, I have found that there is nothing like the sort of diet Corvette is discussing here in terms of rejuvenating the body. Vegetables, especially raw and full spectrum with all their fiber and nutrients are indeed medicine. It has been difficult for me to keep up with this type of diet during our current winter time environment, but I am looking forward to getting back to it this summer. When I really went at it last summer it did wonders for me. I found unusual things like small amounts of raw blended local organic summer squash to be particularly invigorating. They are loaded with enzymes, vitamins and minerals which, in their unadulterated form can do wonders for health. So I am really a huge advocate of the raw food diet stuff. - George
You can always grow your own. I think it is so awesome to harvest a salad 15 minutes before I eat it. https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,3269.0.html
It doesn't get any better than that! ;D
Quote from: Hawk on March 20, 2013, 12:54:35 PM
You can always grow your own. I think it is so awesome to harvest a salad 15 minutes before I eat it. https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,3269.0.html
Good stuff. I might try this...
and George - I agree. I started on Dec 18. I ate chik fil a that day. Haven't had meat or any fast food since. Cooking my own meals and snack has been different (since i'm 29 and single) but it has been fun to learn by trial and error. I eat a LOT of asian foods now. But they are delicious! I might add in the occasional grilled fish. But i'm pretty positive the diary (almond milk is so great!) and meats (besides fish) are gone for good. I feel so much better without them.
I missed this thread earlier but I am now pretty much convinced that diet is a major factor in healing Peyronies. I only started to tighten up my diet a few weeks ago and it started by simply removing honey from my diet. Then as I learned more through this forum and elsewhere I've gone much further over the last few days.
My kitchen is now laden with a colourful range of raw vegetables and fruit, while I completely avoid anything that lists chemicals or additives on the label. The irony is that compared with the average I was by no means eating a bad diet previously but I wasn't getting enough of the pure gold nutrients that come from a diet rich in raw vegetables and nuts etc, so my Peyronies was getting progressively worse despite taking Pentox etc.
I am by no means straight in terms of curvature when erect but when you see that kind of dramatic turnaround in inflammation and plaque size in a such a short period I find it astonishing. I've just managed to find the Forks over Knives documentary and I shall try to watch it later tonight. I am tremendously encouraged by corvette2010's experience and hope others will pay more attention to their diets.
Quote from: ashtown on March 26, 2013, 07:45:58 AM
I am by no means straight in terms of curvature when erect but when you see that kind of dramatic turnaround in inflammation and plaque size in a such a short period I find it astonishing.
Ashtown, I don't think it is clear to readers if you mean the kind of turn around you have seen since you changed your diet or if you mean the turn-around that Corvette has seen.
If you are referring to yourself please fill in the details or link back to another post elsewhere that explains.
I haven't yet seen the kind of dramatic straightening Corvette has experienced but I only started to think seriously about my diet more recently and even then there were several aspects that were unwittingly still wrong, such as eating low fat yoghurt that turned out to have a lot of sugar and I was still eating quite a lot of meat.
There was a lack of knowledge on my part but also a domestic struggle to convince my wife that food actually mattered, so I really couldn't eat those cakes she had just made or the cottage pie. My diet was improving but only in the last week has it really become very disciplined with a diet of mainly organic vegetables and fruit.
Less than 2 months ago I had a horrendously large plaque that was hard in several places and spread almost the entire length of my penis. Now it has shrunk to the base of my penis and is softer than it has ever been since the Peyronies began.
I first posted about this here but I feel I've made progress since then. Just like Corvette I hope that continued discipline will actually lead to straightening https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,3247.msg45003.html (https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,3247.msg45003.html)
One diet option that has seemed to help numerous people (myself included) is the 4-hour body "slow carb diet" promoted by author Tim Feriss. It essentially involves removing almost all sugars and starches (including fruit) and eating only beans, lean meats (grass-fed beef, chicken, turkey, etc.) and lots of veggies (but no potatoes). The best part is that once a week you get to have a cheat day where you can eat anything, and as much of it, as you want. Apparently this cheat day is important for keeping the body from going into starvation mode and storing too much fat. Anyway, I have been on it for a few weeks and it has worked well. No Peyronie's improvements yet, but I am a bit leaner and the extra protein has helped my interval (running) and strength training. The low sugar probably makes this low inflammatory as well, except for cheat day.
-Skjald
(just FYI, a number of my friends and family are doing this diet and seem to have luck with it. The no dairy part has been hard for almost everyone though.)
Although was already pretty lean I was doing the 4-hour body diet not long before my Peyronies started and that part was OK but I was also doing the much talked about kettle bell swings mentioned in the book and I've always had a suspicion that they actually caused or at least greatly exacerbated my Peyronies, so if you do the diet please give the kettle bell swings a miss.
How would that one type of weight equipment exacerbated Peyronies anymore than a dumbbell or any other resistance training ???
It reminds me of the quote " For every human problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, plausible, and wrong."
I can't say for certain that the kettle bell swings caused my Peyronies. All I know is that the swinging action places considerable pressure around the pelvis and I was doing quite a lot of these with a heavy 25 kilo weight. I was getting super fit and had increased my numbers then after about ten days I could feel the lumps.
A few months back I tried just one set but it provoked horrendous pain and inflammation that started within minutes and took a few days to calm down. It was almost like I'd tried lifting the weight with my penis rather than my hands. No other exercise I've tried does anything like that.
Quote from: ashtown on March 27, 2013, 03:34:30 AM
It was almost like I'd tried lifting the weight with my penis rather than my hands. No other exercise I've tried does anything like that.
I'm glad you clarified that. I was going to ask if you were using your penis. ;D :D ;D
Getting back on the topic of a plant based diet, lets just say that no carrot or piece of spinach has ever hurt me no matter how I've used it, though I'm a traditional sort and usually just eat the stuff, which hurt my teeth when I tried with a kettle bell ::)
There is something I'm wondering about that other's might know regarding vitamin C. I'm not taking any supplements but I'm now eating lots of salads, broccoli, cabbage and other plant foods that are naturally rich in anti-inflammatories and anti-oxidants but also packed with vitamin C, which I gather can boost the production of collagen. Is this something we need to be wary of with Peyronies? It looks like it didn't cause Corvette any kind of problem.
ashtown, the problem in Peyronie's is not simple accumulation of collagen. It is much larger than that. If that were not the case, anybody mega dosing on Vitamin C would be developing Peyronie's and Peyronie's like diseases as a result and that is not happening. Collagen issues with Peyronie's are caused NOT by excess collagen, but by inflammation. So Vitamin C is your friend in this regard because it reduces inflammation. Just like the case of a car that catches fire because of a fuel line rupture. The problem in that case is not because the car had too much gas in its tank. Its because the fuel line ruptured. Peyronie's occurs because of the underlying metabolic problem. Neither reducing nor increasing collagen synthesis itself is going to have any effect, positive or negative on Peyronie's. The same is true of Lysine which is also unnecessarily vilified as a collagen threat. - George
What you DO have to worry about with large doses of Vitamin C are mainly kidney stones. To reduce that threat large doses of Vitamin C should also be accompanied by plenty of magnesium.
That all makes sense George and puts my mind at ease to a large extent, though it does beg the question why some doctors are telling patients to be careful about vitamin C. I can't find it now but here was a message on the forum a couple days ago from somebody who thought he had Peyronies but it turned out to be something else and the doctor told him to be careful of too much vitamin C. I've also seen other posts around the internet where doctors have advised against taking vitamin C.
I love this thread as I think diet is the ultimate answer. But I do feel like meat is getting a bad rap in this thread. I started off right away with diet as means to heal myself like many I saw the forks over knives and others and ended up going vegan thinking meat was bad. Before peyronies I was chronically tired physically and mentally. I tried to eat good but was naturally thin so I could get away with eating whatever I wanted. So when I began with food to heal myself I started the whole plant based raw diet. Eating lots of fruits and veggies and cutting meat completely. I felt great for a while but was always hungry. Then as the months went on I started to feel tired again also weak and right back to where I was before. I then started doing more research and started adding meats back to my diet. I found that eating grass fed grass finished meats the fattier cuts made me feel 200% better. My aches and pains went away my skin started clearing up of blackheads, I also don't get much blemishes anymore. My build even though lighter and less muscular than before looks fuller and better muscular tone over all(its hard to describe looking more muscular and athletic even though I am lighter than before). I feel more confident and I believe this due to a increase in testosterone as I have read meat consumption can have that effect. Its not only confidence but I noticed my sex drive which was never low to start seems to have increased a bit more. The reason I started increasing saturated fats and meats is when I came across Peter Attia a doctor that explains that fat and cholesterol have been mistakenly portrayed as bad and associated with heart disease when there is no link at all and that the studies they used to back it up are flawed and don't actually show what they claim. I only eat grass fed meats and lots of veggies with a little fruit mixed in. I have never felt better in my life. My weight lifting routine which has been going down hill since before having peyronies is now getting better again. My remaining lumps seem to be shrinking, they have always seemed to be in a constant state of change but just today the one on the right side which felt similar to a grain of rice now feels like a tiny BB. The pain has gone way way down, especially after masturbation. I am not saying my diet is the answer just don't think of meat as bad and unnecessary. Getting rid of processed foods and cutting way down on refined sugar will help greatly and is the one change I think we should all make.
Ashtown not only do doctors know next to nothing about nutrition, the very small amount to training they received in medical school is for the most part bad information.
"The perfect Diet" by paul jaminet is a good starting point but there are other good books out there that do not promote the bogus USDA pyramid.
Honestly I do not understand your desire to eliminate meats and eat a "plant based diet". Most junk food is derived from plant sources before being processed and fortified so I assume you mean a diet high in organic fruits and vegetables, but new science shows this is not nearly enough. I will not get into the details but high quality (ie pasture raised) animal based proteins and fats are mandatory, for low inflammation and optimum health, and supplementation is no substitute.
Rd congradulations and keep up the good work. Although organic fruits and veggies are excellent for you, a diet that is strictly vegetarian, or worse vegan, is devoid of omega 3's and highly inflammatory. Also the brain requires more cholesterol than any other part of the body, and as you discovered cholesterol is important for sex hormone production.
People today have a tendency to take things to the extreme, like atkins all meat/fat and low carbs, vegetarian, ect. This is never healthy. It takes time to figure out your optimum profile, but shunning a whole class of foods always leads to long term problems.
The main problem americans face today is way too much sugar intake (causing metabolic problems), way too much grains (have tons of antinutrients which harm the gut which is the center of our immune system), and super high omega 6 levels (highly inflammatory) Almost all fat in the supermarket is from seed oil which is loaded with omega 6.
I was in this camp too and would pop a handful supplements recommended here on other forums, hoping it would make up for all these problems. But that was not the case. I did not feel better until I made major changes to my diet.
Funnyfarm, it's unlikely I'll eliminate all meat completely. In fact my wife served up a big chunk of grilled chicken just this evening and I ate it. What I have managed to do over the last couple of weeks is broadly eliminate all processed foods and sugars etc, so I won't be eating at Burger King or gorging on maple syrup and waffles anytime soon.
At the moment I'm eating rich mixtures of organic salad, fruit, beans and vegetables along with green tea and quite a lot of almonds. The only difficulty I have with meat is that we've had a big scandal here in the UK involving meat substitution and it's very difficult right now to have much confidence in what the shops are selling.
In the past I ate very few vegetables; too few actually and I guess I'm just pushing the balance to 80% plant based where it was previously much lower. I'm not fanatical by any means but I do want to eliminate this Peyronies and so far the changes in diet over a few weeks seem to have brought me more progress than all the meds combined over several months. Most likely my new diet is also allowing the meds to work more effectively rather than acting as a block to recovery.
Up to a few weeks ago I thought eliminating the sugar from my coffee was good but then discovered the teaspoons of honey were practically just as bad so I'm still learning but making progress. I was still eating white pasta 3-4 times a week as well. Since changing diet I've found it easier to sleep at night and generally feel better as well.
There ARE some extremely healthy choices in meat out there. Herring and (WILD) Salmon are just two examples. They are as much medicine for your health as are organic fruits and veggies. - George
Just a note about vitamin C. It is true that vitamin C and Lysine are key in collagen production but I pretty much agree that you can hardly fight Peyronies Disease by reducing collagen production in the body. If you had no collagen you would have little body left. Also keep in mind there are literally dozens of types of collagen.
I also would never be concerned about any amounts of vitamin C that you got from food. I would however be suspicious of mega C doses. First off they are not necessary and the do contribute to osteoarthritis, an inflammatory disease. While I know of no strong direct evidence, it is not a big stretch to suspect mega doses of C having a negative effect on Peyronies Disease.
Based on its association with inflammatory osteoarthritis, and its roll in collagen production, coupled with the lack of need, I would avoid mega doses of vitamin C until more evidence comes in. That could be a long time.
Ashtown, it sounds like you have made some excellent changes to your diet. And I am happy to hear you are already experiencing some of the benefits !
Only in the past few years have we seen some really good info published on diet and its effect on autoimmune diseases and inflammation. So I think this is really just the beginning. Over time we will learn so much more, and eventually the information will benefit more people including those with Peyronies Disease
In terms of curvature I haven't seen any major improvement as yet, however the change in diet has stopped the ever worsening progression and I no longer get sudden bouts of inflammation that I frequently used to experience after eating.
As long as I leave it alone and don't meddle the area of scarring feels vastly better after just a few weeks and these are relatively easy changes to make, so my general impression is that the condition is finally healing. I agree with one of the comments earlier that nutrition feels like the way to beat this. At the risk of harking back to some ancient medicine, Hippocrates was probably right when he said "let food be thy medicine".
On a side issue but of possible interest to others I have completely stopped experiencing any side effects such as nausea from Pentox since altering my diet and that alone makes all of this much easier to deal with. I am on 6 x Pentox per day and I wonder if others who say they can't tolerate more than a couple tablets might manage far better following a change in diet.
I think this is a good place to explain to new readers on the forum the things that make anecdotal accounts of improvement so subjective and difficult to use, especially when corroborated only by a few similar accounts.
What we know:
1. I hope we all know that diets high in refined carbs are not good and that whole fresh food with variety are good. From there we may disagree on specifics.
2. We know pain, the inflammatory phase of Peyronie almost universally subsides in 6 to 18 months even with no treatment.
3. We know that pentox takes months to start having a real effect on inflammation and deformity
4. We know that many side-effects of many drugs decrease after we get over the initial phase of introducing our body to that drug.
Within these 4 known statements we can see several possible explanations for your response.
1. The diet reduced the pain and inflammation in your penis.
2. The acute phase is just running the expected course since you are well within the time-frame where that would be expected.
3. The Pentox is kicking in as expected and those side-effects are diminishing as is typical
4. One of a wide number of combinations of the above are working together to reduce the pain and inflammation.
From this everyone can see why the PDS always brings the discussion of treatments like topical Verapamil (to name just one) around to correction in deformity or improved erection. You can also see why our board on Improvement - Accounts of improvements in deformity or erection limits posts to significant improvement in deformity or erection. Everything else including reduction in plaque size and pain, is just part of Peyronies natural course.
In this case lets hope that deformity improves significantly for your sake. If so, it least it will take #2. out of the list of likely things that resulted in the improvement.
Good luck on continued success. Hopefully more of us will take diet seriously because there just isn't a down side to that.
Quote from: Hawk on March 30, 2013, 08:40:52 AM
4. One of a wide combinations of the above are working together to reduce the pain and inflammation.
I would vote for number 4 just about every time. My advice to anybody with Peyronie's is to do everything you can. In other words pull out all the stops early on. I really think that is the best strategy when it comes to treatment. BUT it is probably the worst strategy when it comes to EVALUATING treatments. That is one reason doctors often urge their patients to take their medicine and ONLY their medicine. AND it is why they usually insist on objective measurements for their evaluation of progress. When you are doing everything, it may be only one thing that is giving you benefit ... OR, most likely, it is a subset of those things that are working together to provide relief. What is highly UNLIKELY in most cases to the point of being ridiculous is the possibility that EVERYTHING you are doing is providing significant benefit. But human nature being what it is, we can easily latch onto one aspect of our treatment as being THE KEY to our improvement. That is NOT the way medical research is done and there is a reason for it. Additionally, I can say that I agree with Hawk pretty much on all of his points. I think they present a very balanced view in regards to evaluating treatment and making treatment decisions. There is nothing wrong with just feeling better about your Peyronie's disease. In fact that is a good thing. But it is also a subjective evaluation, and thus can mislead us from our real goal which is to achieve real PHYSICAL, MEASURABLE improvement in the tissues afflicted by this disease.
I agree with George. Truly if there is some significant evidence that Pentox helps stop and reverse deformity and pain, and if there is some evidence certain supplements do the same, and if there is evidence diet can effect inflammation, (a significant component of Peyronies) then why would anyone focus on just one approach. Like George I do not believe in fighting fair with Peyronies Disease or in giving it a sporting chance. I may not shoot a duck sitting on a the water but I will blast Peyronies Disease from every angle with anything and everything I can afford that will not do me harm if there is a rational reason why it might help.
Unless we are enrolled in some study trying to isolate what does the most good in the most situations, I say it only makes sense to hit it from every angle. The result is we will be left a bit unsure what would have happened if we had eliminated one approach, but my first goal is to have a healthy penis. If you spent time doing one thing that did not contribute that much to the improvement who cares as long as the combination worked and there were no significant negative side effects.
Hawk George,
Excellent points, thanks. I agree with everything you said with one exception. For someone with inflammation/pain, but no deformity. I would recommend adding supplements slowly, say in 1-3 month increments. I know ALC and fish oil both made my inflammation worse if I take them daily. Instead I take cod liver oil, and only pop a ALC occasionally. I would not have figured that out if I did not take them out of my regimen at some point.
Also I think this is somewhat clouded by the fact that inflammation is not always bad. If you have deformity, some minor inflammation might be part of the healing process, lasting 6-18 mo as Hawk pointed out, as the tissue reconfigures. So for most guys the shotgun approach (trying everything with some evidence of helping others) is probably best.
I would be very careful with cod liver oil on a regular basis. Cod liver oil contains significant amounts of Vitamin A. Very few people are anywhere near deficient in Vitamin A. Excessive amounts of Vitamin A can be toxic to the liver and carcinogenic. Additionally, Vitamin A in large amounts will deplete your body of Vitamin D. Fish oil and ALC can be tricky. ALC works well for some people and not so well for others. The problem with fish oil on the other hand is that it often carries inflammatory contaminants. But pure fish oil with high levels of DHA should never be inflammatory, never. - George
I totally agree. I cannot imagine any reason to take cod liver oil unless you are in a 3rd world country suffering from famine. If is for the D find another source. If it is for omega 3 likewise go with wild Alaska salmon capsules or better yet Krill oil. As George said the vitamin A is total over-kill.
I also have to disagree with slacking off on ALC early on. That is when I would recommend starting it. It stopped my pain within 3 days of taking it and the pain started back up within 3 days of stopping ALC. I cycled it twice to make sure it was the ALC. My pain was never bad but it was clearly noticeable and distracting. . It also has some decent clinical data supporting its benefits for Peyronies Disease.
George, thanks for the help. I am taking Nordic Naturals CLO (600mg DHA 400mg EPA /teaspoon). I read about the vit A concern however it only has 425-1500 IU / teaspoon. So something in their processing reduces the level of both vit D and vit A.. Also I take Vit D and monitor my D blood levels. But I am glad you pointed this out for the benefit of others. I also have 6oz of salmon 2 or 3 times a week, not to mention seafood on other days. They never cause a rise in inflammation, unlike the omega 3 fish oils. My goal is to lower my omega 6 and increase my omega 3 profile, but I have read this can take 6-12 months, since they are stored in our body fat.
But I think the point is important, sometimes the supplement is not as good as the natural source, and I would avoid low quality supplements.
Hawk, FYI I have also tried Krill with no problems, and it has the benefit of containing the antinflammatory antasthaxin.
You are probably doing this but keep in mind ONLY wild caught salmon is healthy. Farm salmon has low vitamin D and toxins from both the food they raise it on and the PCB trays they raise the young fish in. It is not just that one is farm raised and one is not although that is a big part of it. They are very different species.
Alaska = wild caught and Pacific = Wild Caught. It is illegal to farm these species of salmon (these are among the least contaminated fish in the world in part because they die young without building up toxins.
Atlantic = Farm Raised Very few of these are left in the wild and the wild ones are not commercially marketed.
Totally agree I find myself cooking at home more than going out now to eat. And the wild seafood always tastes better !
Farmed salmon is also notoriously low in omega 3s. They GET those omega 3s from their diet, and what the farmed fish get fed is NOT a natural salmon diet.
Good stuff ITT guys.
Quote from: George999 on March 30, 2013, 06:26:42 PM
Farmed salmon is also notoriously low in omega 3s. They GET those omega 3s from their diet, and what the farmed fish get fed is NOT a natural salmon diet.
Yep it is the same problem as with grain fed cattle vs grass fed. o3 to o6 ration will be way off.
Still better than eating bread and pasta though!
On the subject of a whole food plant based diet does anybody know if we should be avoiding the so called nightshade foods? I'm reading conflicting information all over the internet. I'm already avoiding potatoes apart from sweet potatoes but what about tomatoes and peppers? Surely these are loaded with anti-oxidants and good sources of vitamins?
That is a great question and very hard to answer. For a normal person, tomato does not seem to have any noticeable downside. However tomato does make my mothers rheumatoid arthritis flare up very quickly. So it definitely does have a negative effect in some situations.
Question being, is Peyronie's one of those situations?
As far as pains go, nightshades are a problem for me and I have eliminated them. Acidic ones like tomatoes were the worst offenders, so listen to your mom :) I can not speak in terms of scaring though.
Quote from: funnyfarm on April 15, 2013, 01:13:22 AM
Acidic ones like tomatoes were the worst offenders, so listen to your mom :)
I don't know if I understand you completely because the "dangerous" chemicals in the Solanacea family are alkaloids, not acids.
Indeed, certain plants in this family contain chemicals toxic to humans at high doses, but the vast majority of the edible solanacea produce we eat (tomatoes, potatoes) have been bred for generations to not contain these chemicals, otherwise we wouldn't/couldn't eat them. These alkaloids are bitter and awful at high doses (anyone here ever swallow chewing tobacco juice?) I am not convinced that edible plants in the nightshade family are inherently dangerous. I have not yet seen proper evidence to convince me that this is anything other than old wive's tales. If I see convincing data, I will change my mind.
Skjaldborg
I can only base my conclusion on personal experience: I eat a tomato, I feel worse, I stop eating them.
Honestly, I have never been a big tomato person because tomatoes in our country are genetically modified, sprayed with pesticides, and then picked unripe for transport, and then sprayed with ethylene to artificially induce ripening. No wonder they have no flavor !
I have eaten loads of tomatoes over the last 20 years, having lived in Italy for much of that time and then continued with a largely Mediterranean diet afterwards. I can't say it caused me any direct problems I'm aware of but I'm working very hard to get this right.
On a side note I wasn't fat by any means but since this change in diet I've lost over 3 kilos (7 pounds) in the last month, while eating as much as I like and when I checked yesterday my body fat was at just 7%. Weight loss for the sake of it is not my aim here and I'm not a body builder but apparently just being overweight can hamper your body's ability to deal with inflammation.
Something I'm trying to work out now is whether oatmeal (oats based porridge) is a problem or not. I keep reading that it releases energy slowly and is anti-inflammatory but it must have gluten and apparently millet based porridge is a better option if you are fighting inflammation.
Can you set the conclusion of what diet is the most effective? What food can we eat to see the best result and what food we have to avoid?
In our hospital I saw a pic, which is associated with food against thrombosis. Not peyronie, but still. Left - can eat, middle - may be allowed, right - ignore.
Click to enlarge.
(http://s2.ipicture.ru/uploads/20130415/thumbs/MVbD7UVz.jpg) (http://s2.ipicture.ru/Gallery/Viewfull/24044448.html)
Quote from: ashtown on April 15, 2013, 04:11:52 AM
Something I'm trying to work out now is whether oatmeal (oats based porridge) is a problem or not. I keep reading that it releases energy slowly and is anti-inflammatory but it must have gluten and apparently millet based porridge is a better option if you are fighting inflammation.
Oats do NOT have gluten in them in and of themselves. Unless they specifically say "Gluten Free" they likely have some trace cross contamination just like every other grain because they are processed in factories that process wheat and barley. Such trace amounts of gluten are not an issue in my view unless you have a
high gluten intolerance which is uncommon although not rare. To put yourself on a diet that is structured for a person allergic to gluten is crazy unless you are of course that person. The key to good health is stay in tune with your body and moderation not fanaticism. My wife is highly guten intolerant but I don't abstain from her food allergies any more than she abstains from mine. If we eliminate everything from our diet that causes problems to someone somewhere in the world we would literally die of starvation.
Quote from: koss on April 15, 2013, 05:39:27 AM
Can you set the conclusion of what diet is the most effective? What food can we eat to see the best result and what food we have to avoid?
The world has a million conflicting nutrition/diet books and programs with hundred of claims and counter claims with authorities lining up on both sides. Add to that the fact that we all have individual bodies with different food sensitivities and different nutritional needs. That's why patients across the world all get different side-effects from drugs and why many get no side-effects from the same drug. Surely no one here is going to resolve these endless debates on the "best diet". Most of us presume that it makes sense that a low inflammatory diet is best for Peyronies Disease but there has never been one clinical study or even a an investigational survey done on diet an Peyronies Disease. Further more it is unlikely there ever will be one for Peyronies Disease much less on something as illusive as the best diet in general.
Thanks Hawk for the clarification. :)
I was not sleeping at nights thinking about how bad my diet is. :(
The only whole food plant I can eat is red meet (especially in form of Romanian hamburgers with a lot of garlic) with white bred and bear as nutritional additive ;D
I know my post should be "On the Light Side" board, apologising for that.
I just think that our obsession with the different diets is taking our attention from other important things.
I think the best is a balanced diet that includes the necessary nutrices for our body and as Hawk has stated, we are all different and I thing that what can be excellent for one, can be a disaster for someone else. :)
James
An Apparent Relation of Nightshades (Solanaceae) to Arthritis (http://www.noarthritis.com/research.htm)
Pigmented Potato Consumption Alters Oxidative Stress and Inflammatory Damage in Men (http://jn.nutrition.org/content/141/1/108.abstract)
Quote from: james1947 on April 15, 2013, 08:26:22 AM
I just think that our obsession with the different diets is taking our attention from other important things.
I think the best is a balanced diet that includes the necessary nutrices for our body and as Hawk has stated, we are all different and I thing that what can be excellent for one, can be a disaster for someone else. :)
I don't think one thread on the forum really counts as an obsession unless I've missed a whole bunch of similar topics; while accurately defining a balanced diet has to be one of the most elusive pursuits of all time. How many times have we heard people on TV talking about a balanced diet and yet their recommendations constantly change over the years.
I do believe though that we should be working individually to discover what works and not discard diet as being of minor importance. It's very easy these days to think you are eating a healthy diet without being fully aware of the ingredients, especially in packaged foods. For me it's clear that if I eat nachos in a cheese sauce and wash it down with Coca Cola my Peyronies will start protesting with pain within the hour. That doesn't happen when I eat a salad or a handful of almonds.
When I saw my urologist last week he said I had seen a clear clinical improvement since my last visit. Diet may or may not have played a significant part in that but in the absence of any guaranteed cure I will continue with a process that at least seems to be helping.
1) I believe that PROCESSED foods AS A CLASS are BAD. But even in this case, a few bites now and then are UNLIKELY to do significant harm. But having, for example, a few bites of sausage in a meal once or twice a month is far different than eating sandwiches with cold cuts on a daily basis.
2) I believe that vegetables are far more nutritious than meats, but here again, restrained consumption of healthy meats is not likely to be harmful and may even have benefits. I believe there is research out there indicating it can.
3) Some fruits and vegetables are more nutritious than others, but even the least nutritious and most glycemic can usually be eaten safely IN MODERATION.
4) Some very natural foods contain glutens or plant hormones. And some insist that we should refrain from these completely. As Hawk has wisely pointed out - "if you are not overtly allergic to them, don't waste sleep over it".
Diet is extremely important when it comes to health BUT we must try to focus on the bigger picture and no become myopic. No ONE food is going give us supernatural health AND no ONE food is going to condemn us to a life of pain and misery. Beware of claims to the contrary. If you are convinced a food is bad for you even though cutting back on it gives no immediate benefits, just go easy on it. Don't let it become a phobia. Some people are deathly allergic to peanut butter. Does that mean we should all stop eating peanut butter forever? I don't think so. What I do believe is that we should go for quality in food. After all, we put it in our body. We should be thinking, not about whether a particular fruit of vegetable or even meat is intrinsically bad for us, but rather what has been done to it before it went on sale. Have its genetics been artificially altered? Has it been hybridized to give it longer shelf life? Has it been saturated with pesticides, herbicides, hormones, and/or antibiotics, etc? These are really far worse threats than things like eating wheat, tomatoes, potatoes or soy beans. I really do think this is a useful discussion, but, if we are not careful, we can take it too seriously to the point that we neglect proven therapies and that would not be a good thing.
ashtown
I had no intention to state that diet is a bad thing.
I eat red meet, it comes from grass feed cows, the grass not treated with pesticides.
George post bellow expressing my opinion in a better English and clear logic's than my post.
Thanks George :)
James
Quote from: james1947 on April 15, 2013, 08:26:22 AM
I just think that our obsession with the different diets is taking our attention from other important things.
I could not disagree more. We are dealing with an inflammatory auto-immune condition. Dietary intervention has shown itself to be effective in treating inflammatory auto-immune conditions. This is very very important.
Skunk you are correct, it is becoming more apparent every year that the immune system health is primarily determined by gut health. And obviously diet is paramount in maintaining a healthy gut.
When the immune system is not balanced we suffer from inflammation which manifests itself differently in everyone. In our case though, it is Peyronies Disease that results.
Quote from: funnyfarm on April 16, 2013, 01:24:01 AM
Skunk you are correct, it is becoming more apparent every year that the immune system health is primarily determined by gut health. And obviously diet is paramount in maintaining a healthy gut.
One thought has just occurred to me. How about eating fermented foods like sauerkraut or kimchi?
These are said to help with digestion, support immune function and contain anti-inflammatory omega-3 fatty acids. Most of the shop bought stuff is not that great but you can actually make it pretty easily yourself.
Yes you are correct Ash, I also drink Kombucha and Kefir (from raw milk) which are both naturally fermented. When you take a probiotic you get a dozen strains of bacteria, but with these there are 1000's. There is no comparison. The only fermented food that I would avoid is commercial yogurt, as many are mostly sugar and poor source of the good stuff. And the cheap sauercrauts that come in a plastic bag are usually not fermented, they contain preservatives. Where I live the fermented ones are 12.00/lb, so I get the other stuff instead.
I have noticed a dramatic improvement in digestive health within a few weeks. I think the secret is to get a small amount everyday if possible, or at least a few times a week. Your gut (and body) will thank you !
This is an excellent blog on anti-inflamation diet and lifestyle. This post talks specifically about the involvement of the gut in the immune system function Cooling Inflammation: Dr. Oz on Gut Flora Repair (http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/dr-oz-on-gut-flora-repair.html)
Hi funnyfarm, I've started eating raw organic unpasteurised sauerkraut and I'm just headed out the door to look for some kefir. Do you feel these foods have actually helped your Peyronies in any way?
Definitely helped with digestion, and energy level. I think it is too early, I have not fixed the Peyronies Disease. However I will say, I no longer get the inflammation after I eat, and my prostatitis has improved.
It is hard to find but if available, get raw, unpasteurized, kefir.
I just managed to find a few sugar free pots at a local supermarket but it was pasteurised. Apparently it's quite easy to make yourself so I may just have a go at that myself. The taste is good and seems to be a bit like liquid cottage cheese. You can also buy kefir in tablet form.
PS Something I read earlier today was a real eye opener. Apparently 85% of our body's immunity defences are handled through the wall of the gut so it's vital that we get this right.
I have just read through the whole thread and found it very interesting. I have, after one year of taking high doses of vitamins, minerals, enzymes come to the conclusion that diet is more important to my health and Peyronie's then any supplement. There is really no point in trying to improve your diet by eating rubbish and then trying to compensate it with supplements. Eating healthy food and using supplements for a "medical" effect might be different story, but for now I believe eating healthy foods is all I need. Nutrition is such a complex affaire where hundreds of chemicals interact with each other and here we are trying to figure out what vitamin, mineral or enzyme in what quantity will have a positive influence on our penis!
Now healthy food is a very broad term and everyone will have their own personal definition of this. Very few of us are trained in the nutritional field and as someone has mentioned before medical doctors neither.
By chance I have come across a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell. I believe he is the founder of the "Whole foods plant based Diet" and probably the bases of the Forks over Knives documentary that I have not seen.
His research and findings have changed my outlook on nutrition entirely. I have changed my diet accordingly and I have never looked back. It's not another phony diet out of a woman's magazine based on another magazine. His research data is based over many countries and over a long period of time and includes hundreds of international studies. His definition is very simple and easy to follow, and after reading the book you will have no problem identifying what is healthy food and what not.
Another interesting read is "Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease" by Caldwell B. Esselstyn. He is the first researcher to proof that coronary heart disease is reversible through diet and lifestyle changes. His diet is largely based on a "Whole food plant based diet" as described by Campbell. You will probably wonder what that has to do with Peyronie's. Pentox is a medication to improve blood flow in the arteries and is used mostly by people with heart disease. The diet does exactly the same!
My logic would say using a whole food plant based diet and Pentox should increase the chance of success dramatically.
Quote from: Bropyron on May 05, 2013, 08:41:54 PM
By chance I have come across a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell.
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/
Rest in peace, China Study (http://chriskresser.com/rest-in-peace-china-study)
Amazon.com: Customer Discussions: Analyzing the China Study Dataset (http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-the-China-Study-Dataset/forum/Fx1YJPR95OHW08P/TxY4S5EZD8Y2XE/1?asin=1574535811)
Welcome to the forum Bropyron, your point about there being no sense in eating junk and trying to compensate with supplements is well made and overlooked by many I suspect including doctors. Eating rubbish food is a drain on our bodies, so more than likely any benefits from supplements will be used up undoing the damage done by the wrong food.
On top of that some supplements are flat out difficult for the body to process and I'm reminded of an example I heard recently about a guy who sailed across the Atlantic not long ago and developed scurvy, despite packing loads of vitamin C tablets. He would have been far better off with fruit.
Recently I found some interesting information on fermented foods as a way of healing the gut and helping our immunity systems to recover from the effects of poor diet and antibiotics. It's worth a read and listening to the commentary when you have a spare hour. Suffice it to say I'm now eating quite a lot of sauerkraut An Interview with Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/05/12/dr-campbell-mcbride-on-gaps.aspx)
I hope it's OK to post this for those who are interested. The Forks Over Knives documentary has been online here for over 6 months Watch Videos Online | Forks Over Knives | Veoh.com (http://www.veoh.com/watch/v39591800ezzjSNck?h1=Forks+Over+Knives)
Out of curiosity how long have you been on this diet and have you seen any improvement specifically in your Peyronies during that time? I have also dropped pretty much all the vitamin supplements with the exception of D3 because we get very little sun where I live for several months of the year.
Welcome Bropyron, as you can see this is an excellent thread, keep us up to date with things.
Thanks ashtown for the link to forks over knifes. Interestingly it is based pretty much on the two books I have mentioned plus a few other things. The video gives a good overview over the subject, but I think is still worth reading the books as they give much more depth to the story.
I have been eating whole plant based whole foods for two years and have Peyronie's for nearly 3 years. The Peyronie's got worse over about ¾ of a year and then started to improve. When I say improve, I mean that the inflamed scares "dissolved" but the hour glass deformity and bend are still there.
I cannot attribute the change in the disease to any of the supplements nor the diet as it is solely anecdotal and really does not mean anything as it could be just coincidental.
To pursue a healthy diet makes still total sense to me as I regard Peyronie's and my penis not as anything separate from the rest of my body but an integral part of it. In that regard I look at my diet as the foundation to a healthy body.
I don't think the diet will straighten my penis but it is the best fighting chance to suffer less permanent damage should a scar reappear.
I totally agree with you !
Quote from: Bropyron on May 09, 2013, 11:34:29 PM
I have been eating whole plant based whole foods for two years and have Peyronie's for nearly 3 years. The Peyronie's got worse over about ¾ of a year and then started to improve. When I say improve, I mean that the inflamed scares "dissolved" but the hour glass deformity and bend are still there.
Hi Bropyron, you say the scar has dissolved but the hour glass and bend is still there. Surely if the plaque has gone shouldn't the penis start to straighten out? I'm just wondering what the missing link is here.
Ashtown
Hi Ashtown, what I meant was that the plaque that felt like a long lump and was tender to the touch has disappeared, but the shape of the penis stayed the same. I assume that the inflammation has gone and the scare tissue is so flat that I can't feel it through palpation. Does this make sense?
Yes that makes perfect sense and begs the question just how small does a scar have to be before the curvature either goes away or reduces dramatically?
In my case the plaque was clearly palpable and frankly harder to find areas that weren't scarred a few months ago. Apart from a recent setback where the urologist provoked further damage through excessive squeezing the plaque seems to be progressively softer and less inflamed. It all feels ten times more natural, yet the curvature is no better.
In a case like yours where you can't feel any plaque or inflammation at all I would try to get an ultrasound scan to pinpoint just how much scarring you have and exactly where it is. I don't think you've ever said how bad your curvature is but surely that information would be very useful for you.
Ups, where did the last few blogs go?
Did the administrator place it under an other heading. I can't find it.
Bropyron
Do you think the "penile orthoses" belongs to "Whole foods plant based diet" discussion?
The "penile orthoses" may be eatten as part of the "Whole foods plant based diet"?
You may find it at:
https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,3453.0.html
James
Thanks James. I was aware of the fact that I got side tract on the topic, but was not sure how to change it and where to go.
Cheers
Corvette and others, I never thought about the inflamation deal. I've been a vegan for about 14 months and my motive after beating prostate cancer was to prevent any other diseases in my body.Apparently I was behind "the curve" for Peyronies, cause I got it about 8 months ago. I can say this, after 6 months living this life style all my blood work improved. Sugar, lipids,blood pressure etc. I hope it will also help with cussed disease, helping to clean up what needs to be done.It makes sense that it should. Regards Inkhorn
Haven't been on here in a while sorry guys. Update, everything is pretty good here. No pain in a LONG time and I feel great overall. I have added fish to my diet (I love grilled seafood on vacation!) but not a lot, just once every couple of months. But still no beef, poultry, pork, etc or any diary (flaxseed milk is delicious!) since Dec 18th, 2012. So I guess i'm a pescatarian is you're into labels and all that jazz.
Here's a video I just stumbled across that made me think of this thread and cutting processed food out specifically wheat. Thought I would share and get input from you all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbBURnqYVzw
There's no question about it, wheat = worthless.
RD,Matt- While processed food is bad and whole wheat that is not really organic and whole is not good, I'm going to have to pass on the whole chromosome binding and the evolution of wheat. Non Gmo is the way to go for sure, but until the good doctor gets a little leaner looking, I'm eating pasta. "Forks over Knives", "Engine 2 Diet" and "The China Study" Regards Inkhorn
Quote from: skunkworks on May 05, 2013, 09:00:52 PM
Quote from: Bropyron on May 05, 2013, 08:41:54 PM
By chance I have come across a book called "The China Study" by T. Colin Campbell.
The China Study: Fact or Fallacy? | Raw Food SOS (http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/07/07/the-china-study-fact-or-fallac/)
Rest in peace, China Study (http://chriskresser.com/rest-in-peace-china-study)
Amazon.com: Customer Discussions: Analyzing the China Study Dataset (http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-the-China-Study-Dataset/forum/Fx1YJPR95OHW08P/TxY4S5EZD8Y2XE/1?asin=1574535811)
Skunk- Thanks for providing a link that could show balance. I will check it out. All I know that after beating cancer, I thought I'd give it a shot. After 6 months as a vegan all my blood work improved dramatically. Cholesterol down below 150, sugar from 7.5(which is borderline diabetic,even though there is no category for borderline) to 5. HPB, while still on meds alot more under control. Regards Inkhorn
inkhorn, one of the best things I did for shedding weight and re-building my body was to limit all carbohydrate intake to foods that possess fiber. Even so, my carb intake is still pretty low. Ever since I went on a high protein, moderate fat, low carb diet, my body went through "ketosis" and I have all the energy I need via protein and fat consumption.
For those of us trying to lose weight, using the Atkins Diet is a great place to start.
Matt- I've been down that route, and yes ketosis, works. About 10 years ago,when alot of my levels were out of control, my GP suggested The South Beach Diet, which is similar, but with less fat and more heart healthy. Lost the weight I needed in 4 months and still drank a little red wine. Inkhorn
Well said, inkhorn.
I think most people can benefit from such a diet but too many people are addicted to "comfort foods" which are extremely high in carbs. And for obese people, it's a lifetime commitment to keep their weight in check.
Matt-One more thing on obesity. It is said that the cock loses length with increased belly fat. I can concur from the experience during the fat years. Whether it gets smaller or is just consumed by the fat, either way it's a drag. During a period of weakness and being overweight, my ability to have robotic surgery was in question. I lost the belly fat and kept it off. Inkhorn