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Welcome to Dr. Landon Trost - Directly answering member questions in the "Medical Professionals" section below the Treatment boards. https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,16512.0.html

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slowandsteady

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CURCUMIN
« on: October 29, 2009, 07:50:11 PM »

I'm going to try to consolidate some posts I've made in the past on curcumin, my favorite supplement for Peyronies Disease. Curcumin is my favorite because at a dosage of 1.2g it's the only thing I know of that can relieve pain for me in just an hour or two, with effects lasting 12 hours or more.



It turns out that curcumin, my all time most effective Peyronies Disease supplement, inhibits both type 1 and type 2 herpes according to this study.

Edit: by the way, my next supplement to try is red marine algae.



Yep, I started taking curcumin to begin with because of how it lowers of cancer risk. In addition to its antiviral action, it's also a potent fibrosis blocker, so it's working for you on multiple levels.

It's very fat soluble and much more bioavailable in fat. Sources that complain about its poor bioavailability as a capsule are like people who drive their car into the water and complain that it doesn't work as well their boat. Dry vitamin D doesn't work that well either.

I mix curcumin in oil first and then pour the mixture into a beverage mixed with soy lecithin. I buy this bulk curcumin and take 1.2g in the morning.

In larger doses it can be an immunosuppressant. I thought its mechanism of action was a slight immunosuppression, but now I wonder if the antiviral aspects are more important.

Of course, I really don't know if Peyronies Disease is primarily viral in nature. I'm putting together an antiviral program, and I'll see how it compares to my former program. Fortunately, a lot of the interventions are the same, though I've stopped arginine and pycnogenol for this test and added lysine and quercetin for this test.



There is another avenue of action of curcumin that might be important in Peyronies Disease, but that doesn't seem to involve viruses. From this report,

Quote
Kobylarz from the Mulhall laboratory at Cornell Medical Center isolated Peyronie's disease cells from human penises. They then looked at a special protein called p53. p53 is important to the life cycle of the cell because it helps tell the cell when it is permitted to die. p53 is normally located in the nucleus of the cell. But this group has found that in Peyronies Disease cells, p53 gets anchored in the cytoplasm of the cell and binds with another protein PARC. This effectively renders p53 non-functional. The overall effect is that the Peyronie's disease plaque cells multiply instead of dying, which leads to progression of Peyronies Disease. These data may lead in the future to the development of a drug treatment to turn on p53 and thus permit the Peyronie's disease cells to die preventing scar build up.

But, curcumin (and resveratrol) to the rescue. In the article Curcumin and resveratrol induce apoptosis and nuclear translocation and activation of p53 in human neuroblastoma (PMID 15161054):

Quote
RESULTS: Treatment induced a dose- and time-dependent decrease in cell viability, cell cycle arrest and induction of apoptosis. Treatment transiently up-regulated p53 expression and induced nuclear translocation of p53, followed by induction of p21(WAF-1/CIP-1) and Bax expression. CONCLUSION: Observations suggest that the cytotoxicity, cell cycle arrest and apoptosis induced by curcumin and resveratrol in NB cells may be mediated via functionally activated p53 and merit further study.

Curcumin was well tolerated in doses of 8g in a phase I study. Maybe more than 1.2g is called for.

s&s

edit: nuclear translocation of p53 is what healthy cells do when damaged to die (p53 goes to the cells' mitochondria and eventually leads to cell death). The Peyronies Disease cells are not healthy and don't die because the p53 is locked up. Perhaps curcumin restores p53 so that cells that need to die do die.

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Tim468

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2009, 08:19:48 PM »

Thanks, S&S.

Tim
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Ashen

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2009, 07:54:08 AM »

Good info.  Keep us updated.
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Fred22

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2009, 11:59:47 AM »

I mix curcumin in oil first and then pour the mixture into a beverage mixed with soy lecithin. I buy this bulk curcumin and take 1.2g in the morning.

S&S,

Thanks for the information.  When I clicked on the link (this bulk curcumin), there were two there.  The powder and the"Best Curcumin w/Bioprene".  I assume you're using the powder?  How do you measure the 1.2g dosage.  Is coconut oil OK for mixing with the curcumin?

Fred
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slowandsteady

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2009, 05:44:08 PM »

Hi Fred. I use the one on the top, without bioperine. The label says 300 mg per 1/8 teaspoon, and I have a 1/4 teaspoon measure on hand. Coconut oil is fine; I did it that way this morning. I've also upped my dosage to 1.8 g.
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Fred22

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2009, 12:24:11 PM »

Hi Fred. I use the one on the top, without bioperine. The label says 300 mg per 1/8 teaspoon, and I have a 1/4 teaspoon measure on hand. Coconut oil is fine; I did it that way this morning. I've also upped my dosage to 1.8 g.

Thanks for the info.  Think I'll order some and try it out.  I'll post results.

Fred
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slowandsteady

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2009, 12:30:12 PM »

Thanks for the info.  Think I'll order some and try it out.  I'll post results.

Fred
Thanks, please do. It will be nice to get some more feedback on curcumin taken with oil.
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skunkworks

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2009, 11:31:53 PM »

It would probably work if you chucked it in a bowl of cereal (with milk), or anything else with milk. Piece of toast thickly buttered.

Or in my case as I don't eat wheat, I could probably get away with putting it in bowl of stew.

What is the word on curcumin and heat? Does it lose anything?
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slowandsteady

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 11:43:17 PM »

What is the word on curcumin and heat? Does it lose anything?

Actually it gains. ;) Heating it in hot water makes it 10x more water soluble.
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slowandsteady

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Topical curcumin
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2009, 03:22:58 PM »

Curcumin is quite a small molecule (368.39 Da) and so is a candidate for topical administration since small molecules are candidates for passing through the skin.

I see that there is a product called Psoria-Gold:
Quote
In its pure form, curcumin is not absorbed through the skin. Psoria-Gold™ is a patented formulation that allows absorption of curcumin through the skin with efficacy.

It's quite pricey: Original Formula $89.95 / 2 OZ; Extra-Strength $119.95 / 0.5 OZ.

The PDF product description says that curcumin "activates the 'switch off' mechanism to decrease phosphorylase kinase (PhK). The side effect's of the body's wound healing reaction to injury are reduced. The skin then returns to its normal state". Ingredients are Water, Isopropyl alcohol, aloe vera, carbomer, cellulose, curcumin, diazolinylurea, triethanolamine, EDTA. I'm surprised to find the heavy metal chelator EDTA in the ingredients list.

I see another cream (AC3 max) for $24.75.

Unfortunately the Health Pro Labs line of creams, including the curcumin cream, seems to be discontinued. I do have their transdermal niacin cream, and I've started mixing some curcumin into that. Better yet might be DMSO and curcumin.
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newguy

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Re: Topical curcumin
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2009, 11:08:14 PM »


It's certainly something that's worth exploring.  Is the molecular weight of curcumin within the area that would allow it to be effective when used with DMSO? As for niacin cream... does it result in any local reaction at all? I take oral niacin and get the niacin flush, but I'm of the opinion that this is probably a good thing, so I go with it over the non flush options.
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slowandsteady

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Re: Topical curcumin
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2009, 11:26:49 PM »


It's certainly something that's worth exploring.  Is the molecular weight of curcumin within the area that would allow it to be effective when used with DMSO? As for niacin cream... does it result in any local reaction at all? I take oral niacin and get the niacin flush, but I'm of the opinion that this is probably a good thing, so I go with it over the non flush options.

Yes, under 500 Da is about what's needed for transdermal delivery. Naltrexone is only 341 Da by comparison, and it's quite available transdermally at a dose of 3mg. From this source:
Quote
Although the stratum corneum is an efficient barrier, some chemical substances are able to penetrate it and to reach the underlying tissues and blood vessels. These “successful” substances are characterized by low molecular weight (≤500 Da), lipophilicity, and effectiveness at low dosage. The largest daily dose of drug in patch form is that of nicotine: twenty-one milligrams

Nicotine is 162 Da.

Even though not more than a few milligrams would penetrate, it would penetrate where it's needed. I think mixing it with 70% DMSO has good potential. It stains a bit; ok, a lot. ;) I have no redness with the niacin cream, but I take a lot of niacin already.
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Fred22

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2009, 09:51:46 AM »

Hi Fred. I use the one on the top, without bioperine. The label says 300 mg per 1/8 teaspoon, and I have a 1/4 teaspoon measure on hand. Coconut oil is fine; I did it that way this morning. I've also upped my dosage to 1.8 g.

S&S,

Just got my curcumin yesterday (two bottles of the powder).  I thought I had some coconut oil, but couldn't find it, so tried mixing with olive oil.  I added 3/4 tsp. curcumin to 1 tbsp. olive oil into a measuring cup.  I stirred for a long time but mixture was still grainy.  I tried adding this to hot water and stirred , but it still wouldn't dissolve.  I tried again, this time heating up the olive oil (1 tbsp. in a measuring cup) in the microwave for 45 seconds.  The curcumin dissolved a little better in the warm olive oil, but was still grainy.  I went ahead and drank this.  (Hope I haven't taken too much for my first dose)  I did some research on the net and found various oils that have been used by others.  It's supposed to mix readily in fish oil, flaxseed oil (both omega 3's so that's good for you), olive oil was also mentioned...also clarified butter and chocolate, I believe.  I'm thinking I may have reached a saturation point by using to little oil or too much curcumin to my mixture.  Can you tell me exactly how you prepare your mixture.  Do you heat up the oil?  How hot?  What proportion curcumin to oil?  Thanks.

Fred
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slowandsteady

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2009, 11:00:20 AM »

Can you tell me exactly how you prepare your mixture.  Do you heat up the oil?  How hot?  What proportion curcumin to oil?  Thanks.

Here's how I take curcumin: make a cup of coffee with lots of cream. Add a pinch soy lecithin as a surfactant. Add a heaping teaspoon of coconut oil. Put in two 1/4 teaspoons of curcumin powder. Stir, let sit, stir again and drink.

The grain size of the curcumin is large, so not all of it will dissolve. The solution is to take more or reduce the grain size. I just take more and it works for me. One could also take less by reducing the grain size (like with a mortar and pestle, coffee grinder, or premixing olive oil and curcumin in the blender).

s&s
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Fred22

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2009, 11:59:01 AM »

Can you tell me exactly how you prepare your mixture.  Do you heat up the oil?  How hot?  What proportion curcumin to oil?  Thanks.

Here's how I take curcumin: make a cup of coffee with lots of cream. Add a pinch soy lecithin as a surfactant. Add a heaping teaspoon of coconut oil. Put in two 1/4 teaspoons of curcumin powder. Stir, let sit, stir again and drink.

The grain size of the curcumin is large, so not all of it will dissolve. The solution is to take more or reduce the grain size. I just take more and it works for me. One could also take less by reducing the grain size (like with a mortar and pestle, coffee grinder, or premixing olive oil and curcumin in the blender).

s&s

Thanks for the info.  Didn't you post earlier that you'd raised your dosage to 1.8g curcumin?  At 300 mg. per 1/8 teaspoon would't that be three 1/4 teaspoons?  I also just read on a curcumin blog that it mixed perfectly with butter.  Just bought some pure butter with olive oil.  I'll let you know how that works out.  Thanks again.

Fred
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slowandsteady

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2009, 02:03:17 PM »

Didn't you post earlier that you'd raised your dosage to 1.8g curcumin? 

I did. I'm trying to balance getting over a cold with keeping Peyronie's in check. I've backed off to 1/2 teaspoon (1.2g) or less. Even before I caught a cold, I found 1.2 g curcumin to be effective.
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Fred22

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2009, 03:47:05 PM »

Didn't you post earlier that you'd raised your dosage to 1.8g curcumin? 

I did. I'm trying to balance getting over a cold with keeping Peyronie's in check. I've backed off to 1/2 teaspoon (1.2g) or less. Even before I caught a cold, I found 1.2 g curcumin to be effective.

Is this because some studies indicate that curcumin may have  immunosuppressive properties?  I've read a couple of the studies, but the languange is so technical that, not being a scientist, I have a little trouble following.  Also if curcumin is, as you have stated, purported to have anti-viral properties, wouldn't it be helpful in treating a cold, since colds are caused by a virus? 

I'm still experimenting with different ways of mixing (going to get some coconut oil this weekend).  Today after having problems getting it mix well with olive oil, I tried it with a new butter/olive oil blend.  This worked better, but still did not completely break down.  Then I put one whole bottle of the curcumin in the blender and, although I lost a little, what is left over is definitely a finer powder.  Haven't tried mixing it yet.  I'll wait till tomorrow's dose, since I've probably already had over 2g today already.  I'm going to try your method when I get some coconut oil and lecithen, but, since I don't drink coffee, I'll mix it with green tea.  I have a little inflammation today, but so far it seems better than yesterday.  My symptoms vary so much from day to day that it's going to take a while to see if I'm getting any benefit.  Let me know if you have any other suggestions.

Fred
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George999

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Re: Important New Curcumin Discover ...
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2009, 08:06:50 PM »

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Fred22

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Re: Important New Curcumin Discover ...
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2009, 10:01:37 AM »

Tapping Into Curry's Health Benefits

Interesting information, George.  Do you know if there are any curcumin/liposome supplements available yet.  If not, meanwhile, do you agree that mixing it with oil assists in absorption.  Slowandsteady is getting good results with coconut oil and curcumin.  When you took curcumin, how did you prepare it?  Also, what is your take on curcumin's immunosuppresive properties?  Do you think it's anything to worry about in doses of less than 2g, or perhaps a helpful effect for Peyronie's?

Fred
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George999

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Re: Important New Curcumin Discover ...
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2009, 11:53:33 AM »

Interesting information, George.  Do you know if there are any curcumin/liposome supplements available yet.  If not, meanwhile, do you agree that mixing it with oil assists in absorption.  Slowandsteady is getting good results with coconut oil and curcumin.  When you took curcumin, how did you prepare it?  Also, what is your take on curcumin's immunosuppresive properties?  Do you think it's anything to worry about in doses of less than 2g, or perhaps a helpful effect for Peyronie's?

Fred

There are no products based on this discovery yet, but supplement makers move pretty fast sometimes on these things.  When I was using circumin, I was using it with canola oil mixed with vegetables.  And I was putting a lot of it on and using it daily.  I don't think it is very dangerous, but I am not sure how effective it is.  s&s is finding it effective for him and I don't know if that is just how his body is reacting to it or if he has indeed found the magic formula.  Hopefully more people pick up on it and report on it so we can see how it works for a broader sampling of people.  What the liposome thing does tell us is that just the right formulation does make all the difference in terms of assimilation and without assimilation you might as well not be taking it.  - George
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Fred22

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Re: Important New Curcumin Discover ...
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2009, 02:32:19 PM »

Interesting information, George.  Do you know if there are any curcumin/liposome supplements available yet.  If not, meanwhile, do you agree that mixing it with oil assists in absorption.  Slowandsteady is getting good results with coconut oil and curcumin.  When you took curcumin, how did you prepare it?  Also, what is your take on curcumin's immunosuppresive properties?  Do you think it's anything to worry about in doses of less than 2g, or perhaps a helpful effect for Peyronie's?
Fred

There are no products based on this discovery yet, but supplement makers move pretty fast sometimes on these things.  When I was using circumin, I was using it with canola oil mixed with vegetables.  And I was putting a lot of it on and using it daily.  I don't think it is very dangerous, but I am not sure how effective it is.  s&s is finding it effective for him and I don't know if that is just how his body is reacting to it or if he has indeed found the magic formula.  Hopefully more people pick up on it and report on it so we can see how it works for a broader sampling of people.  What the liposome thing does tell us is that just the right formulation does make all the difference in terms of assimilation and without assimilation you might as well not be taking it.  - George

Yeah, I've been taking it for two days now and have had pain both days.  I'm beginning to think my pain, or some of my pain, may be neurological.  For example, my stress level seems to really dictate the level of my pain.  Yesterday, I was virtually pain free, then just had a minor stressful situation and my pain flared up then settled down.  Later I received a letter with some stressful financial news and I immediately started hurting.  I'm still stressed today and pain is moderate.  I need to get back into therapy and redevelop my coping skills. Today I mixed the curcumin, which I had put in the blender and made into a finer powder, with pure butter which contained olive oil and it dissolved better.  I poured that into some green tea, as heat is supposed to make it about 10 times more water soluable.  We'll see how it does after a few days, but so far definitely no miraculous cure for my pain.  I'm also getting some heartburn, but don't know if it's the curcumin or stress related.  I have a feeling that even pentox might not help me (if it's mostly neurological) but I'd like to give it a try.

Fred
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slowandsteady

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Re: Important New Curcumin Discover ...
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2009, 03:12:23 PM »

Do you know if there are any curcumin/liposome supplements available yet.

Anthony at revgenetics.com is developing a micronized curcumin product using gelcaps, MCT oil, and Tween 80, another surfactant. You might want to drop him an email.

New Chapter has an interesting formulation that uses concentrated curcumin oils.

Curcumin has a logP of 2.85. From this explanation, that means if curcumin is put in a container that is half water and half oil and shaken up, 708 curcumin particles will end up in the oil for every one particle in the water. It's pretty obvious why taking curcumin with only water means little absorption.  Actually, from reading that whole thread, I'd guess that mixing curcumin with olive oil (long chain fatty acids) might lead to the highest bioavailability.
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George999

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Re: Important New Curcumin Discover ...
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2009, 04:13:24 PM »

Curcumin has a logP of 2.85. From this explanation, that means if curcumin is put in a container that is half water and half oil and shaken up, 708 curcumin particles will end up in the oil for every one particle in the water. It's pretty obvious why taking curcumin with only water means little absorption.  Actually, from reading that whole thread, I'd guess that mixing curcumin with olive oil (long chain fatty acids) might lead to the highest bioavailability.

As far as I know most vendors out there now sell the stuff in dry form in capsules.  No wonder it has so little effect.  I really seems like it should be delivered in some sort of softgel.  - George
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Tim468

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2009, 09:39:21 AM »

Fred - interesting observations about the source of pain. That in turn makes me wonder if the act of mixing up a medication or chemical to take, brings your mind to the problem and thus creates stress too - more than the drug itself. Hang in there and keep working on it - that's all any of us can do!

Tim
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Fred22

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2009, 11:47:39 AM »

Fred - interesting observations about the source of pain. That in turn makes me wonder if the act of mixing up a medication or chemical to take, brings your mind to the problem and thus creates stress too - more than the drug itself. Hang in there and keep working on it - that's all any of us can do!
Tim

Tim,
Funny you should mention that.  The first stressful event that I mentioned in my post was trying to get the curcumin to mix properly, spilling some, losing some when I put it in the blender, staining, etc.  In fact, when I got finished my beard was yellow!  All seemingly small events, but goes to your point above about mixing a med bringing your mind to the problem and creating stress.  I've been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and was seeing a cognitive behavior therapist for a while...need to get back into therapy!

Fred
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Re: Pain ...
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2009, 03:26:19 PM »

I have had the same problem as Fred with pain in the urinary tract as well as Peyronie's pain.  Low Dose Naltrexone seems to be helping me with both at this point.  But the question remains, what is the source of this pain in the urinary tract?  Is it somehow associated with Peyronie's?  In my case I am undergoing a lot of tests right now because of my neuropathic pain.  One of those tests which was done before I started on the Low Dose Naltrexone was a compete urinalysis.  This was a sequence of two complete assays done about a week apart.  The core of the urinalysis showed no problems.  But, interestingly, let me quote from the cytology section:

Quote from: Test #2 - Oct  9
Diagnosis: No Malignant Cells Identified  COMMENT:  The urinary sediment shows reactive urothelial cells with mild background mixed acute and chronic inflammation as well as degenerative changes of urothelial cells.  There are rare crenated RBCs present.

Quote from: Test #1 - Oct 14
Diagnosis: Atypical Cells Identified  COMMENT:  The urinary sediment shows few atypical urothelial cells, several of which demonstrate prominent nucleomegaly as well as few cellular clusters with a background of mixed acute and chronic inflammation and microscopic hematuria.

Tim may understand some of this language better than I do, but it looks like there is an inflammatory process going on in the urinary tract as well as in the TA in my case.

Other discoveries so far in my case are deficiencies in Vitamin B5 and Omega 3/6/9 Fatty Acids.  More tests are on the way.

My suspicion in the case of Peyronie's is that there is a wide variation in the way that it presents itself in various individuals with an equally wide array of surrounding issues and complicating factors.  - George
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Tim468

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #26 on: November 15, 2009, 09:40:22 PM »

George - not sure what that means. I can run it by a colleague to see what it might mean to him, but I bet that it is so different in kids he may not know either.

Tim
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Fred22

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2009, 10:10:57 AM »

Check out this link.  It's a "new formulation" which purportedly greatly enhances bioavailability of curcumin.  Might be all hype, but for all interested take a look and let us know what you think.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/oct2007_report_curcumin_01.htm
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George999

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2009, 10:52:04 AM »

Check out this link.  It's a "new formulation" which purportedly greatly enhances bioavailability of curcumin.  Might be all hype, but for all interested take a look and let us know what you think.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/oct2007_report_curcumin_01.htm

Life Extension is pretty reputable among the supplement vendors.  This sounds pretty impressive to me.  Its also available now.  Here's the link:

http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Super-BIO-Curcumin-400-mg-60-Veggie-Caps/15211?at=0

Note the positive customer comments.  - George
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slowandsteady

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Re: Important New Curcumin Discover ...
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2009, 01:15:38 PM »

As far as I know most vendors out there now sell the stuff in dry form in capsules.  No wonder it has so little effect.  I really seems like it should be delivered in some sort of softgel.  - George

Yes, although it's not quite so bleak if the curcumin is taken with a meal that includes fat. Taken by itself on an empty stomach with just water does nothing for systemic delivery, though it does help the digestive system, reducing the rate of colon cancer.

The LEF product is nice. I like that the mechanism of increasing bioavailability is by using components of the turmeric root.

On additional issue is how best to measure bioavailability of an oil-soluble product? At the end of the day the amount in the tissue is the most important factor, but researchers often measure blood plasma levels. If it's in the blood plasma the liver will remove it, so it has a finite window of opportunity to work in before it is filtered out.

On the other hand, maybe transport through the lymph system is better. This way the tissues get bathed in the oil-soluble substance before the liver filters it. The way to get it into the lymph system is with long chain fatty acids like olive oil. Medium chain oils like coconut oil take it directly into the blood plasma through the portal vein.

My conclusions for fat soluble supplements are
  • if you want to administer via the lymph system, take with olive oil on an empty stomach
  • if you want to administer via blood plasma, take with MCT or coconut oil, or take LEF's product

s&s
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George999

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2009, 01:31:02 PM »

Perhaps the LEF product could be taken in an oil base formulation as well?  That would be interesting.  - George
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George999

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2009, 04:35:10 PM »

And look what I just found.  It looks like LEF is using the liposomal technique already, but with their old C3 formulation.  It will be interesting to see if they repackage their new broad spectrum formulation into a liposomal delivery system as well.  - George

http://www.iherb.com/Life-Enhancement-NanoCurcuminoids-100-mg-90-Capsules/16641?at=0
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slowandsteady

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2009, 09:55:08 PM »

LEF is repackaging this product.
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Fred22

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2009, 11:49:17 AM »

And look what I just found.  It looks like LEF is using the liposomal technique already, but with their old C3 formulation.  It will be interesting to see if they repackage their new broad spectrum formulation into a liposomal delivery system as well.  - George

http://www.iherb.com/Life-Enhancement-NanoCurcuminoids-100-mg-90-Capsules/16641?at=0

If you take 3 of these a day, that's 300 mg.  Is that enough to effectively reduce inflammation?  I'm taking about 1.2g mixed with extra virgin olive oil.  I've put the powder through a blender and though I lost a little, it now dissolves pretty well in the olive oil.  However, I haven't been taking this on an empty stomach as suggested by S&S.  Does everyone agree that if taken in olive oil it should be on an empty stomach?

Fred
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slowandsteady

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2009, 11:57:42 AM »

Does everyone agree that if taken in olive oil it should be on an empty stomach?

Fred
I don't think it will make a huge amount of difference, but might be slightly better, so IMO I wouldn't sweat it.
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slowandsteady

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Re: Topical curcumin
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2009, 12:04:37 PM »

I made up a batch of DMSO curcumin. I filled up a cobalt dropper bottle about 1/4 with curcumin and poured 70% DMSO until about 75% of the bottle was filled and shook. My tentative plan is to try this for a couple of weeks and see how effective it is. I'm on day 2 now.

Watch out for the stains. A bleach based cleaner works well on countertops.
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Re: Topical curcumin
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2009, 11:55:25 PM »

S&S - perhaps add in some chicken thigh fillets and we can have a nice stir fry for dinner:)
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newguy

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Re: Topical curcumin
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2009, 07:12:14 AM »

S&S - perhaps add in some chicken thigh fillets and we can have a nice stir fry for dinner:)

Made me chuckle :D.

----

Be sure to keep us informed S&S.. :)
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slowandsteady

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Re: Topical curcumin
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2009, 09:53:58 AM »

Yeah, pretty impressive results so far. My penis is completely yellow. :D

I think I need to get some gloves...
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newguy

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2009, 09:56:41 AM »

Reitterating some old bioavailability tips:

Quote
The cells lining the human small intestine contain several types of enzymes that convert curcumin into relatively inactive substances:

1.UGT (UDP-glucuronosyltransferase) enzymes;
2.sulfotransferase enzymes;
3.alcohol dehydrogenase;
4.p450 enzymes.
These same enzymes are also found in the liver and other tissues.

Among the available substances that inhibit these enzymes are:

1.Piperine (extracted from black pepper) inhibits UGT enzymes and p450 enzymes;
2.Quercetin (extracted from various plants) inhibits sulfotransferase enzymes;
3.Genistein (extracted from soy) inhibits alcohol dehydrogenase
http://www.delano.com/ReferenceArticles/curcumin-enhancement.html


Quote
Curcumin's full pharmacological potential is limited owing to its extremely limited water solubility. We report here that the water solubility of curcumin could be increased from 0.6 μg/ml to 7.4 μg/ml (12-fold increase) by the use of heat. Spectrophotometric (400–700 nm) and mass spectrometric profiling of the heat-extracted curcumin displays no significant heat-mediated disintegration of curcumin. Using an enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay that employed HNE modification of solid-phase antigen, we found that the heat-solubilized curcumin inhibited HNE-protein modification by 80%. Thus, inhibition of HNE modification may be a mechanism by which curcumin exerts its effect. We also report a simple assay to detect curcumin spectrophotometrically.
- http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/adt.2007.064



[/quote]

Of course it sounds like this advice is fast becoming obselete with the new bioavailability methods coming through. I still have quite  asuppyl of curcumin and tend to dissolve it in cocunut oil. I tried the piperine version, but was concerned about how it may increase or decrease the bioavailability of other supplements, so stopped.
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newguy

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2009, 10:00:12 AM »

My other relevant post from way back when, on this matter and new thoughts added to the bottom:

Quote from: newguy
I saw a post on imminst.org leading to this page:

http://addiandcassi.com/year/the-real-curcumin-for-treating-alzheimer%E2%80%99s-parkinson%E2%80%99s-and-other-brain-disease

It discusses what is called a "super optimized curcumin" used at UCLA and a parents quest to get access to it. I am suspicious of these things, but if we can find the actual study elsewhere confirming its bioavailability then it could be something that's useful to us.

Further information here: http://downsyndromejourney.forumotion.com/down-syndrome-awareness-f12/longvida-curcumin-information-t1300.htm

Found this too:

Quote
Dear Margaret:

Recently, a solid lipid nanoparticle formulation of curcumin has become available.

The formulation was developed in the labs of two professors at UCLA:

Professor Sally A. Frautschy http://alzheimer.neurology.ucla.edu/Frautschy.html
Professor Greg M. Cole http://alzheimer.neurology.ucla.edu/Cole.html

This formulation is described in detail in a patent application, PCT/US07/05829 (WO/2007/103435) http://tinyurl.com/3eaegw
Bioavailable Curcuminoid Formulations for Treating Alzheimer’s Disease and Other Age-Related Disorders.

The Regents of the University of California http://tinyurl.com/2bztov have licensed it to:

Verdure Sciences, Inc.
1250 East Conner Street
Noblesville, IN 46060
[email protected]

This formulation has eleven times greater bioavailabiity in the plasma when tested in rodents (see note 1).

Verdure has trademarked this formulation as Curcuminol M3Cx and Longvida. It is available in 500 mg capsules, and these may be obtained by contacting Blake Ebersole @ 317-219-0355 at Verdure. E-mail [email protected] You can ask him to fax the forms a customer needs to fill-out to obtain the capsules. It is sold in packages of 100 capsules for $59.99. A 400 capsule package is available, too.

Although curcumin has been given in clinical trials in doses as high as 12 grams a day with only minimal toxicity (note 2), I would reason that 4 grams (8 x 500 mg capsules) might be the optimal dose.

Pharmanza Herbals Pvt. Limited, which is Verdure’s production facility in India, http://www.verduresciences.de/index.php?nav=2&lang=en, is acting as the sponsor for a trial of this curcumin formulation for advanced osteosarcoma at:

Tata Memorial Hospital
Advanced Centre for Treatment, Research and Education in Cancer (ACTREC)
Pilot Study of Curcumin Formulation and Ashwagandha Extract in Advanced Osteosarcoma (OSCAT)
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00689195
Manish Agarwal, M.D. 011-91-22-2417-7184 [email protected]
Vikram S. Gota, M.D. 011-91-22-2417-7000 ext 4537 [email protected]

I spoke with Dr. Gota in July who told me that this formulation seemed effective in the early results from the trial. They are using a 4 gram/day dose.

Regards,

David Corbin

REFERENCES

1) Curcumin structure-function, bioavailability, and efficacy in models of neuroinflammation and Alzheimer’s disease.
Begum AN, Jones MR, Lim GP, Morihara T, Kim P, Heath DD, Rock CL, Pruitt MA, Yang F, Hudspeth B, Hu S, Faull KF, Teter B, Cole GM, Frautschy SA.
J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2008 Jul,326(1):196-208.
http://pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=18417733

The inference I suppose is that the curcumin used in the study (1) is the curcumin formulation in question. It might be worth having a read through it to see if it actually is much more effective than the methods we're using right now and whether its something worth exploring further.

UPDATE: People are taking the stuff. See this blog entry from September 1st: http://gotdownsyndrome.blogspot.com/2009/09/changes-since-starting-longvida.html

and it appears that is it sold here for $35.95 for 60 capsules: http://www.nutrivene.com/view_item.php?ProductID=331&

This is the claim made: • Longvida™ reaches plasma at least 65 times better than generic curcumin.

Is it worth me trying to see is they can back this up. How effective are the other newer forumations of curcumin supposed to be, and those coming onto the market? Maybe this formulation is nothing to write home about with what is just around the corner?
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Fred22

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2009, 10:26:17 AM »

Although curcumin has been given in clinical trials in doses as high as 12 grams a day with only minimal toxicity (note 2), I would reason that 4 grams (8 x 500 mg capsules) might be the optimal dose.

When they say "4g might be the optimal dose"....the optimal dose for what?   I'm taking app. 1.2g with olive oil (it dissolves pretty well in olive oil) for inflammation.  Would we need to take at least 4g to treat inflammation or does anyone know?  I guess it's kind of a "shot in the dark" at this point when, like so many other treatments, there have been no true "scientific" studies.  I've only been doing the curcumin for about 3 or 4 days now and don't really know if it's helping yet.  I had a couple of relatively pain free days, but yesterday got a flareup after a bowel movement, which happens to me occassionaly if I strain the least bit.  I feel a sort of "contraction" in my penis or maybe my bladder neck (hard to tell) and then I get this "tight" feeling in my penis, then pain.  Does anyone else get anything like this? I have chronic constipation because of (I assume) medications that I'm taking and I deal with it in a number of ways (enemas, laxatives, suppositories).  Lately I've been using Milk of Magnesia.  I'm sure from my experience that there is a connection between my penile pain and constipation (straining). Well, I just realized I've gone off on a tangent...My main reason for this post was RE curcumin dosage.

Fred
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newguy

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2009, 04:32:55 PM »

Here's a current phase II clinical trial for alzheimers using longvida: http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01001637

Although curcumin has been given in clinical trials in doses as high as 12 grams a day with only minimal toxicity (note 2), I would reason that 4 grams (8 x 500 mg capsules) might be the optimal dose.

When they say "4g might be the optimal dose"....the optimal dose for what?   I'm taking app. 1.2g with olive oil (it dissolves pretty well in olive oil) for inflammation.  Would we need to take at least 4g to treat inflammation or does anyone know?  I guess it's kind of a "shot in the dark" at this point when, like so many other treatments, there have been no true "scientific" studies. 

Your guess is as good as mine. Perhaps at 4g, benefits in relation to the increased amount taken, are deemed to decrease. As for what dose would be best for peyronie's, i'd agree that it's a shot in the dark. It's dark to know how much it helps, but if we go with what might be helpful, it's something we shouldn't be ruling out.
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Fred22

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2009, 10:54:07 AM »

Thanks for the info.  Think I'll order some and try it out.  I'll post results.

Fred
Thanks, please do. It will be nice to get some more feedback on curcumin taken with oil.


Slowandsteady,
I've been taking the curcumin with olive oil for over 2 weeks now with no noticable results.  I did have a good day yesterday, but woke up this morning with the urinary tract irritation that George has also mentioned.  It's possible the curcumin is not effective for me because my pain may not be caused by inflammation (neurological?).  Don't know, but I do feel there is some connection between the pain and my chronic constipation.  I've been taking 4 tbsp. milk of magnesia for a few weeks now (longer than recommended I know). Last night I got up during the night to pee and I would get started and then feel like I had to have a BM which would stop the stream triggering the "burning" sensation in my urethrera.  It's still burning as I'm posting this message.  Just took a dose of curcumin hoping against hope that it will help. I may have to go back on the ibuprofen but that's a double edged sword as it aggravates the constipation problem.  What's the saying?..."Between a rock and a hard place"!! I'm going to order the Fitzz VED and try the 26 week protocol...maybe that will give me some relief.  

Fred
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slowandsteady

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2009, 03:19:18 AM »

Maybe you have a urinary tract infection? Guys can get yeast too, and bacteria might be involved too. You might want to see a doctor.
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Fred22

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2009, 03:23:33 PM »

Maybe you have a urinary tract infection? Guys can get yeast too, and bacteria might be involved too. You might want to see a doctor.

Nah...I've had these same symptoms before and had urine checked out.  Also, this comes and goes.  Some days it's an "aching" kind of pain, other days it's more of a "burning" sensation.  On a good day it feels almost "normal".  I'm thinking maybe some neuropathic issue or just typical Peyronies Disease inflammation that is difficult to knock out.  The curcumin does seem to help me with some GI issues I've been having though.
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slowandsteady

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2009, 12:40:47 AM »

The curcumin does seem to help me with some GI issues I've been having though.
It does have anti-fungal and anti-viral properties.
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Fred22

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Re: Curcumin
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2009, 10:04:13 AM »

I'm happy to hear that curcumin is effective for some, but in my case it appears to be a non-starter.  I've tried it for close to a month with virtually no improvement of symptoms.  I'm starting to think, as I've said before, that some of my pain could be neuropathic in origin..at least partially.  Yesterday afternoon I took 800 mg. ibuprofen.  After 2 hours my pain was at the same level.  At about 3 hours after dosage, the pain seemed to let up a bit, but then was back within 1 hour or so. This is the pattern that is typical of my experience with pain.  It comes and goes from moment to moment so it's hard to determine if the ibuprofen had any effect.  I've discussed this issue with at least one other person on the forum who has the exact same experience.  The pain can let up, I'll change positions and it's back.  Straining or lifting can bring it on.  Today I'm experiencing only minor irritation at the moment and I'm wondering if possibly the ibuprofen could have knocked down some of the inflammation.  I noticed when I got up during the night to pee that it wasn't hurting.  I think I'll try 800 mg. at lunch and another 800 at dinner and see if that is more effective.  If anyone has suggestions regarding the use of ibuprofen I'd appreciate the feedback.  Thanks.
Fred
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Old Man

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Re: Curcumin/control of pain.
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2009, 10:28:26 AM »

Fred22:

Over the years, I too have experienced different levels of pain in the groin area. Many epidural blocks have been taken to help control lower back pain. During the time of relief for the lower back pain with the blocks, the groin/penile pain went away.

Consultation with a neuro doc revealed that the pain was caused by a pinched nerve in the lumbar region of my back. He said control the back pain and the groin pain with go away and it does. It seems that the pinched nerve was one that controlled that portion of my body.

So, as a suggestion, you might want to explore this possibility with the pain. Nerves can play a major role in how pain is controlled with or without medication.

Old Man
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Age 92. Peyronies Disease at age 24, Peyronies Disease after
stage four radical prostatectomy in 1995, Heart surgery 2004 with three bypasses/three stents.
Three more stents in 2016. Hiatal hernia surgery 2017 with 1/3 stomach reduction. Many other surgeries too.

Fred22

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Re: Curcumin/control of pain.
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2009, 10:24:52 PM »

Fred22:

Over the years, I too have experienced different levels of pain in the groin area. Many epidural blocks have been taken to help control lower back pain. During the time of relief for the lower back pain with the blocks, the groin/penile pain went away.

Consultation with a neuro doc revealed that the pain was caused by a pinched nerve in the lumbar region of my back. He said control the back pain and the groin pain with go away and it does. It seems that the pinched nerve was one that controlled that portion of my body.

So, as a suggestion, you might want to explore this possibility with the pain. Nerves can play a major role in how pain is controlled with or without medication.

Old Man

Old Man,

I'm considering seeing a neuro specialist or a pain management doc.  I do believe that the pain is a result of the Peyronie's (I have no back pain), but I agree that there could be some neurological connection.  Today I started off almost pain free and then the pain started after urination, and then would subside, then come back when I peed again.  I've had this before and had urine checked, so I'm sure it's not a UTI.  I'm really stumped and it's getting extremely depressing at this point.  I tried ibuprofen again today and it had negligable effect.  Thanks for your suggestions.

Fred
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