SUPLEMENTS - Arginine, Carnitine, Citrulline, Omega 3 Fish Oil & Others

[LWillisjr]

bart15,

L'Arginine is an over the counter supplement. I used to buy it at the local health store. I just checked an online suplements store and you can buy 2 bottles of 1000mg (qty 100 each) for $10. Just Google L'Arginine, it is easy to find.

[George999]

Here is a list of various arginine products available from iHerb along with their prices:

L Arginine at iherb.com

- George

[despise]

I have found a lot of l-arginine at good prices such as

jarrow formulas 1000mg 100 tablets for $9.87 from iherb.com

twin lab 500mg 100 tablets for $10.14 from puritan.com

Good N Natural 1000mg 50 tablets for $4.00 from luckyvitamin.com

and iwillisjr found

iherb.com  qty 120  1000 mg for $16.18

bestvite.com  qty 240  1000 mg     $14.89

tnvitamins.com  qty 180  (Buy 90 get 90 free)  1000 mg  $13.95

puritan.com   qty 200  (buy 100 get 100 free)  1000 mg   $9.59

My question is what has the better potency? I'm debating if I should buy the jarrow forumals or the twin lab as of right now.  

[despise]

Puritan's Pride combines two of the body's most important building blocks into one easy-to-take supplement. Each two (2) capsules provide: L-Arginine (1000 mg.), L-Ornithine (500 mg.) and Chromium Picolinate (6.2 mcg.).

this is the one that's 2 for $9.99 will the l-ornithine and chromuim picolinate disrupt the nocturnal erections? does anyone know if these two are unhealthy in any way? ill do some research and post my findings.

[skunkworks]

I just upped my arginine to 5g in the morning, and 5g before bed. It has had a huge positive effect on erectile function.

[phil_t]

Hi guys,

Sorry if this question has been covered before, I did try searching through the forum but couldn't really find anything definitive.
Basically, I've just bought some 'larginine and was wondering what people recommended in terms of dose/timings.

I was thinking 1g just before bed, does this sound reasonable?

Thanks for the help

Phil

[slowandsteady]

https://www.peyroniesforum.net/index.php/topic,975.0.html

[despise]

What is the recommended dosage for peyronies sufferers? I'm guessing that people here take more of it than normally is usual, but I was reading that it should be taken with Alpha Lipoic Acid to not cause increase of oxidative stress.

[George999]

2 Grams is common.

[nemo]

I've never heard that about ALC causing oxidative stress.  Having the skin/auto-immune disease vitiligo, that would be a bad thing.  Can you turn me onto where you read that?

Nemo

[slowandsteady]

What is the recommended dosage for peyronies sufferers? I'm guessing that people here take more of it than normally is usual, but I was reading that it should be taken with Alpha Lipoic Acid to not cause increase of oxidative stress.

The latest thought on that at imminst.org is that it's not needed if the dose of ALCAR isn't that high. There is also some concern that ALA permanently might inhibit the benefits of caloric restriction on life extension.

[despise]

I've never heard that about ALC causing oxidative stress.  Having the skin/auto-immune disease vitiligo, that would be a bad thing.  Can you turn me onto where you read that?

Nemo

I can't find the exact website, but it is all over the net-just google it and You will find a lot of research on it.

[despise]

I just upped my arginine to 5g in the morning, and 5g before bed. It has had a huge positive effect on erectile function.
[/quote

I've been using 2g before bed, but it hasn't really been doing much for nocturnal erections. Would you recommend to just up the dosage? The only problem I have with that, is its kind of expensive. You don't take any Trazadone? I can't weigh out, which would be better for me. My psychiatrist doesn't want to prescribe it to me, due to the side effect of priapism, but its a whole lot cheaper than L-Arginine.

[George999]

Despise,  Everything I am seeing on a quick glance is indicating that ALC actually protects against oxidative stress AND that when combined with ALA that effect is enhanced.  If you find ANYTHING that specifically states that ALC CAUSES oxidative stress, please, please, post the link. OK?  - George

[nemo]

George, that's what I found too.  

Nemo

[slowandsteady]

If you find ANYTHING that specifically states that ALC CAUSES oxidative stress, please, please, post the link. OK?  - George

It seems to be dose dependent. See this post, which links a PDF of an Ames lecture. Apparently the 1.5% (in water) acetyl-l-carnitine corresponds to 12 grams in a human, a huge amount.

It appears that the full text of the Ames study is online.

In that paper, we read:

For rats fed 1.5% (wt/vol) ALCAR, ascorbate levels in hepatocytes from both young and old rats were significantly lower than corresponding controls (not shown). Cosupplementation of LA with ALCAR negated both the age-related and ALCAR-induced decline in hepatocellular ascorbate concentrations.

and further on:

Thus, the combination of ALCAR with LA not only reverses the age-related increase in oxidants, but also the additional oxidants induced by high doses of ALCAR. These results suggest that ALCAR+LA supplementation not only improves metabolic rate and physiological activity, but does so without causing a concomitant increase in oxidants.

So increased oxidation due to ALCAR was reversed by LA (lipoic acid, and in particular R-alpha lipoic acid). My take is that it is better not to take so much ALCAR that oxidative stress is induced such that you need LA to deal with it, particularly in light of the unknowns surrounding lipoic acid.

I'm in my mid forties, and I take a gram of ALCAR when I wake up. I love the energy and mood boost.

s&s

Edit: the discussion section of the study is a nice read.

[George999]

My take is that it is better not to take so much ALCAR that oxidative stress is induced such that you need LA to deal with it, particularly in light of the unknowns surrounding lipoic acid.

And just what would THOSE unknowns be about?  As with ALCAR, everything I have ever read about ALA has been positive.  - George

[slowandsteady]

And just what would THOSE unknowns be about?  As with ALCAR, everything I have ever read about ALA has been positive.  - George

I think I may have been a bit scared off by it earlier by the study discussed on this thread, but after reading more about it I'm less worried.

[Fred22]

I guess I missed something in this discussion.  I know what ALC is, but what's ALCAR and ALA?

Fred

[nemo]

ALCAR is just an abbreviation for Acetyl L Carnitine (ALC), and ALA is Alpha Lipoic Acid.  

[skunkworks]

not so expensive if you get a big thing of powder. Pills are stupid when you get to grams per day.

[alexk]

Just wanted to throw some news out there for the masses:

Regarding Peyronie's disease, no studies have linked it to heart disease. If it were linked with heart disease, then thousands of men would be diagnosed with Peyronie's symptoms.

Erectile dysfunction is strong predictor of fatal heart ailments, study finds
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-sci-ed-heart16-2010mar16,0,672801,print.story

"'...because arteries in the penis are smaller, so atherosclerosis shows up there sooner,' perhaps three to four years before the onset of cardiovascular disease."

Some people don't accept that plaque is plaque, and that's fine. I believe that it is, but I'm not a medical university and can't run studies. But if you want to talk about plaque and amino acids, you should know about Linus Pauling's theory of cardiovascular disease. It focuses on increased availability of the amino acids lysine and proline, along with vitamin C, to repair damaged plaque in the arteries.

Did you guys know that arginine, an amino acid, competes with lysine for uptake by the body? Lysine is one of the major components of healthy collagen. Lysine also plays an important role in the formation of elastin from other amino acids. The tunica albuginea is about 5% elastin and the rest is mostly collagen. (Source: http://www.bumc.bu.edu/sexualmedicine/physicianinformation/male-genital-anatomy/)

It's true that arginine will increase your circulation, through the properties of nitric oxide. Too much nitric oxide can be damaging, however. And more blood doesn't necessarily equate with healing (though you won't have healing without improved circulation either). You need to have the right building blocks to regenerate damaged tissue. And the more arginine you take, the less lysine you will have to repair damaged collagen and elastin.

[George999]

Alex,  ED does not equal Peyronie's.  Thats the bottom line.  They are not the same thing.  Huge numbers of guys have ED but don't have Peyronie's.  ED is caused primarily by circulatory issues.  Peyronie's is an autoimmune syndrome.  There is a lot of evidence that men with ED have a higher risk of heart disease, there is no such correlation with Peyronie's.  There IS a correlation between Peyronie's and Diabetes.  As for Arginine, doctors prescribe it for Peyronie's.  When you have an autoimmune process going on, no amount of collagen health is going to fix it.  The problem is not a matter of collagen or elastin biology, its a matter of cytokines like TGF-beta1 attacking healthy tissues.  I would suggest that rather than reading just general medicine stuff, you start reading some of the research on Peyronie's itself.  None of the key Peyronie's researchers has indicated that Arginine is harmful to guys with Peyronie's.  - George

[alexk]

And just what would THOSE unknowns be about?  As with ALCAR, everything I have ever read about ALA has been positive.

Lipoic Acid Reduces the Activities of Biotin-Dependent Carboxylases in Rat Liver
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/127/9/1776

http://www.jarrow.com/productProfile.php?newsId=8
"Anyone likely to be severely biotin-deficient should take supplemental biotin if alpha lipoic acid is used regularly. Since biotin and alpha lipoic acid are chemically similar and are transported into cells by the same mechanism, elevated dietary alpha lipoic acid can interfere with biotin absorption. Additionally, alpha lipoic acid may decrease the efficacy of biotin's role in the function of certain enzymes."

Too much ALA will basically reduce or block the function of biotin, or vitamin B7, which plays important roles in cell growth, tissue regeneration, blood sugar control, the breakdown of protein into individual amino acids, and many other life-sustaining functions. Not something you want to mess around with unless you know your biotin status.

[UK]

Alex,  ED does not equal Peyronie's.  Thats the bottom line.  They are not the same thing.  Huge numbers of guys have ED but don't have Peyronie's.  ED is caused primarily by circulatory issues.  Peyronie's is an autoimmune syndrome.  There is a lot of evidence that men with ED have a higher risk of heart disease, there is no such correlation with Peyronie's.  There IS a correlation between Peyronie's and Diabetes.  As for Arginine, doctors prescribe it for Peyronie's.  When you have an autoimmune process going on, no amount of collagen health is going to fix it.  The problem is not a matter of collagen or elastin biology, its a matter of cytokines like TGF-beta1 attacking healthy tissues.  I would suggest that rather than reading just general medicine stuff, you start reading some of the research on Peyronie's itself.  None of the key Peyronie's researchers has indicated that Arginine is harmful to guys with Peyronie's.  - George

Peyronie's can equal ED however

[George999]

Peyronie's does not EQUAL ED, but Peyronie's can cause ED, albeit through a completely different mechanism than that behind classic ED.  In classic ED the TA is not involved, but the driving factor is circulatory.  In the case of Peyronie's, ED may result from damage to the TA.  These are associations and no more.  These are not cases of one disease "equaling" another.

[George999]

I would suggest that anyone afraid of supplement side effects simply not take supplements.  ALL supplements have side effects.  It has been demonstrated in recent research that Vitamin C can cause stomach cancer.  Fish oil is loaded with all sorts of noxious contaminants and yet studies have repeatedly shown that people who take fish oil benefit from it.  Everything assumes common sense.  Anyone concerned about the ALA/Biotin issue can just take some biotin along with the ALA.  In fact a lot of good quality ALA supplements include biotin.  I take lots of both, so I'm not the least bit worried about it.  I have also had all of my nutrient levels profiled via a blood test.  The reality is that the benefits of ALA far outweigh the risks.

[slowandsteady]

@alexk: you might want to give this post a read.

[George999]

S&S,  That is a really good link and a good discussion of the whole issue.  The whole Lipoic Acid scene is just so complex.  A lot of the lower tier vendors buy their LA from cheapo Chinese vendors and who knows what kind of contaminants they contain or what their true potency is.  The whole supplement industry is largely unregulated.  That is why it is a good idea for anyone using supplements to be a member of an organization like Consumer Labs so that they have access to independent testing.  Also, by going through these independent tests line by line, one quickly figures out who are the vendors who are dependable and who are the ones who are unreliable in terms of delivering a quality product.  There are brands that I just won't touch for that reason.  Their products are loaded with contaminants and contain less than the listed amount of active ingredients.

[alexk]

Alex,  ED does not equal Peyronie's.  Thats the bottom line.  They are not the same thing.  Huge numbers of guys have ED but don't have Peyronie's.  ED is caused primarily by circulatory issues.  Peyronie's is an autoimmune syndrome.  There is a lot of evidence that men with ED have a higher risk of heart disease, there is no such correlation with Peyronie's.  There IS a correlation between Peyronie's and Diabetes.  As for Arginine, doctors prescribe it for Peyronie's.  When you have an autoimmune process going on, no amount of collagen health is going to fix it.  The problem is not a matter of collagen or elastin biology, its a matter of cytokines like TGF-beta1 attacking healthy tissues.  I would suggest that rather than reading just general medicine stuff, you start reading some of the research on Peyronie's itself.  None of the key Peyronie's researchers has indicated that Arginine is harmful to guys with Peyronie's.  - George

I think you're very confused about these issues.

[alexk]

Peyronie's does not EQUAL ED, but Peyronie's can cause ED, albeit through a completely different mechanism than that behind classic ED.  In classic ED the TA is not involved, but the driving factor is circulatory.  In the case of Peyronie's, ED may result from damage to the TA.  These are associations and no more.  These are not cases of one disease "equaling" another.

How do you know that ED doesn't lead to Peyronie's? The circulatory system is primarily made up of collagen and elastin, just like the tunica albuginea. Around here there's a lot of focus on improving circulation, via arginine, the VED, hyperthermia, or otherwise. And a lot of excitement over the sudden return of morning (or nocturnal) erections. I think the overlap between ED and Peyronies Disease is not purely associative.

It could be that a lack of healthy oxygenation causes fibrosis (which can be the case with other organs). It could happen subtly over a period of several years. In the case of older people with Peyronies Disease, it's something you wouldn't notice over a decade or two; if you did notice, you might accept it as a normal consequence of aging.

Perhaps the attempt to define Peyronies Disease, and search for its cause, is quixotic. In the end it may be that damage to the tunica is actually common to several diseases (diabetes, etc) and that Peyronies Disease is not a separate disease, but a consequence of something that is already present or will show up later in life (i.e. the association between ED/Peyronies Disease, and the link that I posted below regarding ED as an early warning sign of cardiovascular disease).

[Skjaldborg]

but a consequence of something that is already present or will show up later in life (i.e. the association between ED/Peyronies Disease, and the link that I posted below regarding ED as an early warning sign of cardiovascular disease).

Or you get it out of the blue at age 29 like I did. I have no other health problems, very physically fit, rarely get sick and continue to get normal erections (no erectogenic drugs, ever). In fact, my functioning below the belt is just as it was at age 20 except or a brief period (1-2 days) after I was injured during sex and experiencing pain. I think Peyronie's due to trauma in young men and the slow, progressive form experienced by men over 50 are two different things. This disease sucks at any age but to think I could have had another 20 years of a normally-shaped penis (maybe some erectile issues, but at least no deformity), oh boy. I'm doing better at dealing with this disease but that thought just kills me every time.

-Skjald

[LWillisjr]

Skjald,
I agree that there must be different ways that Peyronies Disease may manifest itself. But I wouldn't even associate it with age. Mine came on overnight as well and I'm in the over 50 category with no other symptoms prior.

I really believe that there are multiple ways that conditions appear that result in some form of ED, pain, and or curvature. And unfortunately I think we are getting to where we broadly categorize everyting under the term of Peyronies Disease. For me that explains why there is no "silver bullet" or even a given set of symptoms. And it seems that some are tyring to find that one common link for us all, and I don't believe it exists. I guess I'm suggesting that there are a number of penile issues discussed on this site, and we (an the medical profession in general) lump them under the banner of Peyronies Disease when in fact there could be yet undocumented penile diseases being discussed here.

The disappointing truth is that it is difficult enough to find a urologist that specializes broadly in Peyronies Disease, let alone any specialty focus for some of these different symptoms.

[skunkworks]

I think you're very confused about these issues.

You can be 100% certain that he is not confused about these issues.

[George999]

I really believe that there are multiple ways that conditions appear that result in some form of ED, pain, and or curvature.

I would suggest that all of these problems can be traced back to systemic inflammation and resulting anomalies in the healing process.  BUT, there are all kinds of different things that can lead to short term or long term systemic inflammation.  And that same systemic inflammation can cause other parallel problems from heart disease to cancer which are then referred to as "associations".  All of this is additionally tangled with genetics and epigenetics and thus becomes extremely complex.  Anyone suggesting simple pathology and simple answers is missing the boat by a mile.  This stuff is so deep that it boggles the minds of the most brilliant researchers.  But we must move beyond treating the visible disease toward dealing with the underlying inflammatory immune dysfuntion problem that is a breeding ground for all sorts of health issues.

[Fred22]

Is it ok to take ALCAR with food?

Fred

[panic]

I take about 2g twice per day. I remember reading somewhere that the recommended dose is 4-6g per day. I also remember reading that it should be taken on an empty stomach. I also remember reading that if the dose is increased past a certain point, it can actually increase TGFbeta levels...

But I don't actually remember where I read these things, or who wrote them, so I could be terribly wrong.

[Fred22]

Just got mine from Puritan's Pride and the bottle recommends 1g per day preferably with meals.  However, most of the articles, etc. I've read online recommends 2g per day for Peyronie's.  One source said to take with a meal which contains "good" fats (omega 3).  It's also recommended to not take it too late in the day as some people have insomnia as a side effect.  So I'm taking 1 with breakfast along with my 1200 mg fish oil (the good fat), Vit. E and D3, then another with lunch along with another cap of fish oil.  I've been taking it for 3 days now and no nausea or other side effects.
Fred

[slowandsteady]

Hey Fred22. Acetyl-l-carnitine is water soluble. I've heard consistently that it should be taken on an empty stomach. It is stimulating, so taking it upon waking is a good idea. PMID 11446848 used 1 g twice daily, and reported that

Acetyl-L-carnitine reduced penile curvature significantly, while tamoxifen did not; both drugs significantly reduced plaque size.

What I like about the 2g dosage is that it appears to be a good bet for general health as well, so I don't see any downsides.

s&s

[Fred22]

Hey Fred22. Acetyl-l-carnitine is water soluble. I've heard consistently that it should be taken on an empty stomach. It is stimulating, so taking it upon waking is a good idea. PMID 11446848 used 1 g twice daily, and reported that

Acetyl-L-carnitine reduced penile curvature significantly, while tamoxifen did not; both drugs significantly reduced plaque size.

What I like about the 2g dosage is that it appears to be a good bet for general health as well, so I don't see any downsides.

s&s

S&S- Are you saying that taking with food is ineffective.  Mine says to take "preferably with a meal".

[newguy]

A thread on another forum, citing many studies and questioning the usefulness of l-arginine: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=124049701&page=3n  Any thoughts?

[slowandsteady]

l-arginine plus pycnogenol seems to be a different animal, judging by the ED study results.

[slowandsteady]

S&S- Are you saying that taking with food is ineffective.  Mine says to take "preferably with a meal".

I don't know if I'd go that far. If you google "acetyl-l-carnitine empty stomach", you'll see lots of results recommending this kind of dosing. Maybe everyone is quoting everyone else.

[newguy]

l-arginine plus pycnogenol seems to be a different animal, judging by the ED study results.

Yes, there certainly does appear to be a level of synergy there. With the recent, and admittedly very rare, viagra hearing loss articles, this combo is perhaps a safer choice for men without very bad ED. It's heartening that it's effectiveness seems to increase over a period of months (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12851125).

Since that study, there have been others, with the name Prelox being used to describe the combination of treatments. The latest study indicates that improvements in erection quality were noted for six months: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20184576  . In this study, and this one: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17703218 testosterone levels in blood also increased. I wonder if the benefits are primarily due to that rather than any other factors?

Do you know where raesonably priced pycnogenol can be purchased? If a person wished to take, say, 40mg -120mg per day, it's one of the more expensive supplements.

[BrooksBro]

One recommendation I read was to take it 2 minutes before waking.  No doubt tongue in cheek.

[slowandsteady]

Do you know where raesonably priced pycnogenol can be purchased? If a person wished to take, say, 40mg -120mg per day, it's one of the more expensive supplements.

It is a bit more expensive, since it only has one supplier and all of the studies were done with this formulation of pine bark extract. I get this 30 mg product which provides 150 capsules per bottle. On a $/mg basis, this one is a great value, but then you might want less than 100 mg dose.

[newguy]

Thanks for the reply. These prices do seem slighly more reasonable than those I've seen before. Only one of the stuidies I've looked at details the actual dosage (2x 40mg daily, increased to 3x 40mg daily). In this study erectile function did increase in line with that increase. However, the recent study also notes a clear improvement over the months, but doesn't state an increase in dose in the abstract. Therefore, it's perhaps reasonable to suggest that the length of time the combination is taken is more important than upping the dose.

I think I'll go for the Now Foods option and maybe two pycnogenol pills at different times during the day. It seems more sensible than taking 100mg. I am currently already taking l-arginine (as part of the PAV cocktail), so can quite easily add this to the routine. On a side note, powdered l-arginine tastes vile.

I'm interested in the mechanism behind l-arginine + pycnogenol combo. Aside from raising testosterone, I wonder what other factors are at play. I czn't find any studies on erectile dysfunction using pycnogenol alone.

[Fred22]

S&S- Are you saying that taking with food is ineffective.  Mine says to take "preferably with a meal".

I don't know if I'd go that far. If you google "acetyl-l-carnitine empty stomach", you'll see lots of results recommending this kind of dosing. Maybe everyone is quoting everyone else.

OK...What are the obvious advantages of taking a supplement on an empty stomach?  I skipped my ALC at breakfast (7:30) and I'm getting ready to take one now (10 AM).  We'll see if I have ill effects (nausea, etc.)

Fred

[slowandsteady]

OK...What are the obvious advantages of taking a supplement on an empty stomach?

It's usually one of two things. In the case of some amino acids that compete against one another for absorption (like large neutral amino acids), you don't want your target amino being out-competed by other amino acids in food.

The other is when it is desirable to get a high peak plasma level of an item, which is best achieved on an empty stomach. When taken with food, the plasma curve over time is generally lower and more spread out. I'm guessing that this second case applies to ALC.

In "Kinetics, Pharmacokinetics, and Regulation of l-Carnitine and Acetyl-l-carnitine Metabolism" (link),

At normal circulating l-carnitine concentrations, renal l-carnitine reabsorption is highly efficient (90-99% of filtered load; clearance, 1-3 mL/min), but displays saturation kinetics. Thus, as circulating l-carnitine concentration increases (as after high-dose intravenous or oral administration of l-carnitine), efficiency of reabsorption decreases and clearance increases, resulting in rapid decline of circulating l-carnitine concentration to baseline. Elimination kinetics for acetyl-l-carnitine are similar to those for l-carnitine.

The fact that ALC is so rapidly cleared implies that a brief high peak plasma level is needed for best effect.

The Peyronies Disease study with ALC used 1g/2x daily. Its possible that taking a gram (or two, depending on body mass) dose more than twice a day spread out over time.

s&s

[Fred22]

OK...What are the obvious advantages of taking a supplement on an empty stomach?

It's usually one of two things. In the case of some amino acids that compete against one another for absorption (like large neutral amino acids), you don't want your target amino being out-competed by other amino acids in food.

The other is when it is desirable to get a high peak plasma level of an item, which is best achieved on an empty stomach. When taken with food, the plasma curve over time is generally lower and more spread out. I'm guessing that this second case applies to ALC.

In "Kinetics, Pharmacokinetics, and Regulation of l-Carnitine and Acetyl-l-carnitine Metabolism" (link),

At normal circulating l-carnitine concentrations, renal l-carnitine reabsorption is highly efficient (90-99% of filtered load; clearance, 1-3 mL/min), but displays saturation kinetics. Thus, as circulating l-carnitine concentration increases (as after high-dose intravenous or oral administration of l-carnitine), efficiency of reabsorption decreases and clearance increases, resulting in rapid decline of circulating l-carnitine concentration to baseline. Elimination kinetics for acetyl-l-carnitine are similar to those for l-carnitine.

The fact that ALC is so rapidly cleared implies that a brief high peak plasma level is needed for best effect.

The Peyronies Disease study with ALC used 1g/2x daily. Its possible that taking a gram (or two, depending on body mass) dose more than twice a day spread out over time.

s&s

Is 2 to 2 1/2 hours after a meal enough time?