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Author Topic: ORAL TREATMENTS – Questions & Suggestions  (Read 33193 times)

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newguy

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ORAL TREATMENTS – Questions & Suggestions
« on: September 18, 2009, 07:15:38 AM »

[Taurine inhibits deposition of extracellular matrix in experimental liver fibrosis in rats]

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To study the effect of taurine on liver fibrosis and its mechanism. METHODS: Fibrosis was induced by the administration of carbon tertrachloride(CCl4) in rats. Some of the animals were treated with taurine. The rats were killed after 12 weeks of CCl4 treatment. Depositions of type I, III and IV collages, laminin and hyaluronic acid were studied in liver sections by immunohistochemical technique using specific antibody. The hepatic contents of type I, III procollage and tissue inhibitor of metalloproteinase-1(TIMP-1) mRNA were determined by Northern blot hybridization. RESULTS: A significant elevations of hepatic collagen I, III, IV, laminin and hyaluronic acid were observed after 12 weeks of liver injury in animals without taurine treatment, and a definite increase in the amounts of hepatic type I, III procollagen and TIMP-1 mRNA was noted. Taurine prevented increases in type I, III procollagen mRNA expression as well as the accumulation of the collagens, laminin and hyaluronic acid in the liver. CONCLUSION: The data indicate that taurine has a protective effect in CCl4-induced hepatic fibrosis. The results suggest taurine might be of potential value in clinical practice.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10572688
 
[Oral administration of taurine improves experimental pancreatic fibrosis]

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BACKGROUND AND AIM: The mechanism of pancreatic fibrosis is unclear. Taurine is used in the clinical treatment of a wide variety of diseases, but its effect on improving pancreatic fibrosis is unknown. We examined whether a diet with added taurine improves pancreatic fibrosis induced by dibutyltin dichloride (DBTC) in an experimental chronic pancreatitis rat model. In addition, we examined the influence of taurine on pancreatic stellate cells. METHODS: Pancreatic fibrosis was induced by DBTC. Rats were fed a taurine-containing diet or a normal diet and were killed at 4 weeks. Pancreatic stellate cells were isolated from male Wistar rats. Cultured pancreatic stellate cells were incubated with or without taurine chloramine. Type I collagen and transforming growth factor-beta1 secretion was evaluated by ELISA, and matrix metalloproteinase activity was assessed by gelatin zymography. Interleukin-6, interleukin-2, and transforming growth factor-beta1 levels in the supernatants of pancreatic tissue homogenates were measured. RESULTS: Pancreatic fibrosis induced by DBTC was improved remarkably by the oral administration of the taurine-containing diet. Taurine chloramine decreased type I collagen, transforming growth factor-beta1, and matrix metalloproteinases 2 of the pancreatic stellate cell culture supernatant. Increased interleukin-6 and decreased interleukin-2 were found in the supernatants of the pancreatic tissue homogenates of DBTC-induced pancreatitis rats compared with other groups. CONCLUSION: The oral administration of taurine improves pancreatic fibrosis. Taurine chloramine inhibits transforming growth factor-beta1 produced from activated pancreatic stellate cells and improves pancreatic fibrosis.
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17764527


[Taurine attenuates radiation-induced lung fibrosis in C57/Bl6 fibrosis prone mice] (July 2009)

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INTRODUCTION: The amino acid taurine has an established role in attenuating lung fibrosis secondary to bleomycin-induced injury. This study evaluates taurine's effect on TGF-beta1 expression and the development of lung fibrosis after single-dose thoracic radiotherapy. METHODS: Four groups of C57/Bl6 mice received 14 Gy thoracic radiation. Mice were treated with taurine or saline supplementation by gavage. After 10 days and 14 weeks of treatment, TGF-beta1 levels were measured in serum and bronchoalveolar lavage fluid (BALF). Lung collagen content was determined using hydroxyproline analysis. RESULTS: Ten days post radiotherapy, serum TGF-beta1 levels were significantly lower after gavage with taurine rather than saline (P = 0.033). BALF TGF-beta1 at 10 days was also significantly lower in mice treated with taurine (P = 0.031). Hydroxyproline content was also significantly lower at 14 weeks in mice treated with taurine (P = 0.020). CONCLUSION: This study presents novel findings of taurine's role in protecting from TGF-beta1-associated development of lung fibrosis after thoracic radiation.
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19609640


I'm sure a few people here are already taking taurine, but I thought it was worth posting these studies. It's probably something that can be of use to us. Also, I appreciate that these studies are on rats and not humans.
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newguy

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Re: Taurine
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2009, 10:05:11 AM »

Beta-Alanine and carnosine are known to induce taurine deficiency (see here, ,here and here).

If there is no way around this, it may be important /relevant to either supplement with taurine, or make a decision as to which supplement is most important to you. I haven't seen any studies that state how much taurine one would need to offset the loss of taurine from carnosine useage.

This is of course only relevant if you view taurine as worth taking, but it is a bit of a conundrum and presses the point that there are so many interactions going on that we find ourselves at cross purposes on occasion.
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slowandsteady

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Re: Taurine
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2009, 01:19:50 PM »

I've started taking a few grams a day (about 1 per meal). It also helps with recovery from exercise, enhances sleep, and perhaps helps anxiety.
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Fred22

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Re: Taurine
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 01:04:34 PM »

S&S,

Wasn't it you who posted some time ago that the taurine relieved some of your Peyronie's related pain?  I have the NOW 1 gram capsules and they recommend dosing between meals.  It also recommends taking the  taurine with NOW Magnesium Potassium Aspartate and B6.  It took 1 gram per day for a while but didn't notice any real effect.  Possibly did not take it long enough.  I still have about half the bottle left, just kind of forgot about it.  Do you think it's worth resuming?

Fred
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slowandsteady

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Re: Taurine
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 04:50:52 PM »

I think it falls in the category of "can't hurt, might help". There's a thread on taurine at imminst.org that's gotten some attention lately.

s&s
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Fred22

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Re: Taurine
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 07:37:20 PM »

I read the thread and it sounds pretty interesting.  I wonder why the NOW brand suggests taking "between meals", which I assume means on an empty stomach?  You say you're taking yours with meals?

Fred
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slowandsteady

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Re: Taurine
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 08:28:59 PM »

Yeah, I'm not sure it matters when you take it. It's not one of the large neutral amino acids that compete to get into the brain. I can't rule out that an empty stomach might be best. It seems to make sleep more restful for me, so I sometimes take it before going to sleep.

I saw this study, Amelioration of bleomycin-induced lung fibrosis in hamsters by dietary supplementation with taurine and niacin: biochemical mechanisms, for which the full text is available.
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It was concluded from the data presented at this Conference that the combined treatment with taurine and niacin, which offers a multipronged approach, will have great therapeutic potential in the intervention of the development of chemically induced interstitial lung fibrosis in animals and humans.

Maybe some niacin taken at the same time would be helpful.

s&s
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slowandsteady

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Re: Taurine
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2009, 09:29:43 PM »

Here's another study about taurine and niacin in hampsters (PMID 9490651):
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Nuclear runoff analysis indicated that TN-mediated reduction of TGF-beta1 mRNA steady-state levels was a result of decreased gene transcription, suggesting a transcriptional downregulation mechanism. Our results indicate that the combined treatment with TN ameliorates BL-induced lung fibrosis, at least in part, via inhibition of TGF-beta1 mRNA expression.

Nice that we have TGF-beta1 inhibition. The full text is available, but unfortunately it doesn't say which form of niacin was used, but I believe that saying "niacin" means nicotinic acid. That's the form that causes the flush, by the way.

s&s

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newguy

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AIM: To investigate the inhibitory effect of natural taurine (NTau) on portal hypertension (PHT) in rats with experimentally-induced liver cirrhosis (LC). METHODS: Experimentally-induced LC Wistar rats (20 rats/group) were treated with either oral saline or oral NTau for 6 consecutive weeks. Evaluation parameters included portal venous pressure (PVP), portal venous resistance (PVR), portal venous flow (PVF), splanchnic vascular resistance (SVR) and mean arterial pressure (MAP). Vasoactive substance levels including nitric oxide (NO), nitric oxide synthase (NOS) and cyclic guanosine monophosphate (cGMP) were also measured. Histological investigation of type I and III collagen (COL I and III) and transforming growth factor-beta(1) (TGF-beta1) was also performed. RESULTS: Treatment with NTau (1) significantly decreased PVP, PVR and PVF, and increased MAP and SVP; (2) markedly increased the vascular compliance and reduced the zero-stress of the portal vein; (3) markedly decreased the amount of NO and cGMP and activity of NOS; and (4) improved the pathological status of the liver tissue and reduced the expression of COL I, COL III and TGF-beta1. CONCLUSION: NTau inhibited the LC-induced PHT by improving hyperdynamic circulation, morphology of liver and biomechanical properties of the portal vein in experimentally-induced LC rats
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19777611

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slowandsteady

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Re: Taurine
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2009, 11:40:32 AM »

Taking 2-3 grams of taurine at bedtime seems to be great when it comes to timing. It makes for a restful night too.
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slowandsteady

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Re: Taurine
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2009, 06:40:31 PM »

Interesting article about an in vitro study, Interaction of taurine with methionine: inhibition of myocardial phospholipid methyltransferase:
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Perfusion of isolated, working rat heart with buffer containing 300 microM methionine in the presence of 2.5 U/L insulin led to a 15% decrease in cardiac work and a four-fold decrease in sarcolemmal Na(+)-Ca2+ exchange activity. These effects of methionine were largely prevented by inclusion of 10 mM taurine in the buffer supplemented with methionine and insulin.

I remarked that methionine inflames my Peyronies Disease. I found this by noticing some inflammation when I made a whey shake, and later took methionine as a supplement and had a repeat. Perhaps taking taurine with whey would prevent that.
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newguy

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Superoxide Dismutase
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 09:41:57 AM »

I mentioned a study here relating to the potential use of Superoxide Dismutase in the treatment of peyronie's (as well as other instances of fibrosis). Unfortunately the "topical gel containing liposomally encapsulated recombinant human superoxide dismutase" mentioned isn't available to purchase. Not that we know that it would work, but any positive peyronie's study is worth exploring.  Superoxide Dismutase is available from iherb in the forum of a dietary supplement called S.O.D.

I just now found what is claimed to be an enhanced verison of Superoxide Dismutase from 'Life Extension' called GliSODin. It contains cocoa and pomegranate too. (wikipedia page)

Taurine may be a useful addition to the peyronie's arsenal, and it does appear that taurine raises superoxide dismutase levels, so maybe it is useful in part due to this mechanism:

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Effect of taurine on alcoholic liver disease in rats.
Wu G, Yang J, Sun C, Luan X, Shi J, Hu J.

College of Animal Science and Veterinary Medicine, Shenyang Agricultural University, Shenyang, China. [email protected]

To investigate the effect of taurine on alcoholic liver disease in rats, male Wistar rats were administered alcohol intragastrically for 3 months. The effect of beta-alanine-mediated taurine depletion and taurine administration on the development of alcoholic liver disease was examined. It was found that taurine administration produced lower levels of aspartate aminotransferase and alkaline aminotransferase than that of the untreated group. In addition, the levels of hepatic total protein, glutathione and superoxide dismutase were higher in the taurine treated groups than in the untreated control or the taurine depleted group, while hepatic malondialdehyde content exhibited the opposite effect. Moreover, the content of hepatic hydroxyproline, serum hyaluronic acid, interleukin-2, interleukin-6, tumor necrosis factor-alpha and laminin were all decreased in the taurine treated group. The pathological changes showed that the percentage of fatty degeneration and inflammation in the taurine group were less than that of the control, taurine depleted and automatic recovery groups. These in-vivo findings demonstrate that hepatic disease caused by chronic alcohol consumption can be prevented and reversed by administration of taurine.

In fact countless studies state that taurine increase SOD. Should anybody else ever be interested or able to go the hyperbaric chamber route oxidation, as a strange coincidence the wikipedia page references a study that shows that Glisodin is helpful in protecting against DNA damage in such circumstances.

Four small studies are listed in this pdf state that injectable Orgotein (which is superoxide dismutases) may show promise in peyronie's patients when injected, though some of the peyronie's disease summary studies elsewhere hint that it hasn't been consistently useful.

It appears that we aren't going to get hold of the injectable version of this anytime soon, but maybe the enhanced oral bioavailability version may be of use to us. Adding an oral version to a regime seems like a safe bet since it has anti inflammatory and anti fibrotic properties in a number of conditions. I'm aware that there are a fair amount of assumptions here, but that's true of any area we explore.
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slowandsteady

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Re: Superoxide Dismutase
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 10:09:37 AM »

You can get glisodin from iHerb from a number of manufacturers who package it. See glisodin.org for lists of the studies about it. I take some before heading out to the beach in the summer.

SOD is hard to get through the digestive system into the blood. Glisodin does this by attaching the SOD to wheat protein, and as I understand it, wheat being wheat, it punches a hole through your intestine. I don't know if this is any worse than eating wheat bread.

I read on imminst that there is a competitor to glisodin now, but I haven't looked into it much.
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newguy

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Re: Superoxide Dismutase
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 10:16:40 AM »

Interesting post in the link about using palm oil to make it more bioavailable. I wonder if the same would be true of coconut oil. It's a shame there isn't a topical version, as I'd be interested in trying it via that method.
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newguy

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Re: Taurine
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 10:53:52 AM »

I remarked that methionine inflames my Peyronies Disease. I found this by noticing some inflammation when I made a whey shake, and later took methionine as a supplement and had a repeat. Perhaps taking taurine with whey would prevent that.

Interesting finding. Taurine appears to be useful on a number of fronts. I'm taking 500mg of niacin daily with it following you highlighting that angle. I take an aspirin 30 mins before the taurine + niacin, and as a result there's no flushing. I wonder if taurines effectiveness is further increased in combination with other substances.
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Fred22

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Re: Taurine
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2009, 03:02:47 PM »

I hate to keep bringing this up, but how much  difference do you feel it makes whether you take the taurine with meals or on an empty stomach?  I was taking one gram per day on empty stomach.  Now I'm usually taking a gram with each meal (3 grams a day) and it seems to be helping (at least the pain has decreased to some degree, which may just be a coincidence).  I'm taking the NOW Foods taurine 1 gram caps and it states on the bottle to take on empty stomach.  Again, I apologize, for repeating myself, but just want to take this upp in the most effective way.  Thanks.

Fred
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slowandsteady

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Re: Taurine
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2009, 06:49:45 PM »

My guess is that it's fine taken with meals. I'm unaware of any advantage in taking it alone, though I can't rule it out. Another thread on taurine here.
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despise

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ANTIOXIDANTS, ANTI INFLAMMATORY & other oral medications
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2010, 05:16:22 AM »

My psychiatrist didn't want to prescribe be trazadone because he doesn't like to prescribe it to young patients due to the risk of that side effect. I am going to just try to recieve nocturnal erections with l-arginine and if that doesn't work adding pycnogonel, but am I most likely not going to be getting the firm, rock hard erections with these that I would with trazadone? I am also considering getting some horny goat weed and maca for my libido due to the decrease thanks to lexapro. Are these two good options for that and do that have any nasty side effects? Sorry I always ask questions on this forum. I know I should be doing my own research, which I do, but I like having your opinions as well because everyone hear has studied these things a lot longer than I have and I always appreciate it =]
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George999

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ANTIOXIDANTS, ANTI INFLAMMATORY & other oral medications
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2010, 06:22:43 PM »

Just for the record, I would like to introduce Lyprinol to our forum.  I have just begun taking this stuff and it does seem to be helpful in terms of controlling at least some types of inflammation.  For months I have had a general inflammation in my right shoulder area and this *seems* to have responded to the first dose of Lyprinol.  Four softgels are recommended when starting, I am only taking one and I am using the less potent ET formulation to boot.  Since I have only taken Lyprinol for two days so far, I can not really vouch for its effectiveness based on my own experience.  But I do think it has some interesting potential and might prove attractive to those who cannot tolerate NSAIDs.  So here are the links:

Main Lyprinol website (product available online):

Lyprinol USA

Reduced strength product also available from iherb:

iherb.com - Enzymatic Therapy Lyprinol

Lyprinol Studies and Papers both positive and negative:

Quote from: PubMed

Pain Controlling and Cytokine-regulating Effects of Lyprinol, a Lipid Extract of Perna Canaliculus, in a Rat Adjuvant-induced Arthritis Model

Using an adjuvant-induced arthritis rat model, we investigated the effects of a lipid extract of Perna canaliculus (Lyprinol®) on pain. Radiological examinations, as well as levels of pro- and anti-inflammatory (AI) cytokines, were measured aiming to provide independent objective data to the pain controlling investigation. We confirmed the ability of Lyprinol® to control pain at the initial phase of its administration; with similar efficacy to that observed with Naproxen. The pain scores slowly increased again in the group of rats treated with Lyprinol® after day 9–14. The Naproxen-treated rats remained pain-free while treated. Both Naproxen and Lyprinol® decreased the levels of the pro-inflammatory cytokines TNF-α and IFN-γ, and increased that of IL-10. Extra-virgin olive oil was ineffective on cytokine secretion. Rats treated with Lyprinol® were apparently cured after 1 year. This study confirms the AI efficacy of this lipid extract of P. canaliculus, its initial analgesic effect, its perfect tolerance and its long-term healing properties.


Quote from: PubMed

Anti-inflammatory effects of a stabilized lipid extract of Perna canaliculus (Lyprinol).

A lipid-rich extract, prepared by supercritical fluid (CO2) extraction of freeze-dried stabilized NZ green-lipped mussel powder (Lyprinol) has shown significant anti-inflammatory (AI) activity when given to animals and humans. When treated p.o. with Lyprinol, Wistar and Dark Agouti rats developed neither adjuvant-induced polyarthritis or collagen(II)-induced auto-allergic arthritis. This was achieved with doses < NSAIDs, and 200 times < of other seed or fish oils. Lyprinol subfractions inhibited LTB4 biosynthesis by PMN in vitro, and PGE2 production by activated macrophages. Much of this AI activity was associated with omega-3 PUFAs and natural antioxidants [e.g. carotenoids]. In contrast to NSAIDs, Lyprinol is non-gastro toxic in disease-stressed rats at 300 mg/kg p.o., and does not affect platelet aggregation [human, rat]. Clinical studies, either controlled or randomized, have demonstrated very significant AI activity in patients with osteoarthritis (OA), rheumatoid arthritis (RA), asthma, and other inflammatory conditions. Lyprinol is a reproducible, stable source of bioactive lipids with much greater potency than plant/marine oils currently used as nutritional supplements to ameliorate signs of inflammation.


Quote from: IBIDS

Efficacy and tolerability of a combination of Lyprinol and high concentrations of EPA and DHA in inflammatory rheumatoid disorders.

This 12-week drug-monitoring study was conducted to evaluate the efficacy of Sanhelios Mussel Lyprinol Lipid Complex on 50 adult men and women with inflammatory rheumatoid arthritis. A total of 34 patients required drug therapy before and during the study. By the end of the study, 21 (62%) patients were able to reduce their dosage and 13 were able to terminate drug therapy. At the end of the treatment period, 38% were regarded symptom free, and the number of patients with severe pain decreased significantly from 60% at baseline to 25% at the completion of the trial. A significant effect was observed for each investigated parameter. The special combination of Lyprinol and omega-3 fatty acids was generally very well tolerated, with only one, nonserious adverse event (mild nausea) reported. This dietary supplement may therefore be considered an effective and well-tolerated component of treatment regimens for inflammatory rheumatoid arthritis.


Quote from: ECAM

Lyprinol—is it a Useful Anti-inflammatory Agent?

The New Zealand green lipped mussel preparation Lyprinol is available without a prescription from a supermarket, pharmacy or Web. The Food and Drug Administration have recently warned Lyprinol USA about their extravagant anti-inflammatory claims for Lyprinol appearing on the web. These claims are put to thorough review. Lyprinol does have anti-inflammatory mechanisms, and has anti-inflammatory effects in some animal models of inflammation. Lyprinol may have benefits in dogs with arthritis. There are design problems with the clinical trials of Lyprinol in humans as an anti-inflammatory agent in osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis, making it difficult to give a definite answer to how effective Lyprinol is in these conditions, but any benefit is small. Lyprinol also has a small benefit in atopic allergy. As anti-inflammatory agents, there is little to choose between Lyprinol and fish oil. No adverse effects have been reported with Lyprinol. Thus, although it is difficult to conclude whether Lyprinol does much good, it can be concluded that Lyprinol probably does no major harm.


Quote from: CABI

Lyprinol (stabilised lipid extract of New Zealand green-lipped mussel): a potential preventative treatment modality for inflammatory bowel disease.

Background: Lyprinol (Pharmalink International), the stabilised lipid extract of the New Zealand green-lipped mussel, is currently used to relieve symptoms of arthritis. We investigated the effect of pretreatment with Lyprinol (LYP) on experimentally induced inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) in mice. Methods: Male C57BL/6 mice (aged 6 weeks) were gavaged daily for 13 days with (150 µl) olive oil (OO; n=7), fish oil (FO; n=8), or LYP (n=8). Mice consumed 2% dextran sulfate sodium (DSS) for 6 days, starting on day 7. Body weight and disease activity index (DAI) scores were recorded daily. Colonic damage was determined by histopathology. Colonic inflammation was quantified by myeloperoxidase (MPO) activity. Results: LYP treatment significantly (P<0.05) reduced body weight loss, DAI scores, crypt area losses, and cecum and colon weights, compared with FO treatment. MPO activity was not significantly affected by any treatment. Conclusions: These findings provide preliminary evidence that Lyprinol may be potentially useful in ameliorating symptoms of IBD. The benefit, however, is unlikely to be due to the omega-3 fatty acid content. Dose-response evaluation of Lyprinol in experimental IBD is warranted.


Quote from: Journal of Nutrition

Improvement of Arthritic Signs in Dogs Fed Green-Lipped Mussel (Perna canaliculus)

These data provide evidence that GLM powder is effective in reducing arthritic signs in dogs when sprinkled directly onto a standard diet or when incorporated into processed treat and main meal products. Total arthritic scores and scores for joint pain and joint swelling were significantly reduced following 6 wk of GLM supplementation in all three forms. Although the mechanism for this is not fully understood, the effect may be the result, in part, of a reduction in the synovial inflammatory response. Anti-inflammatory activity of freeze-dried powdered GLM has been demonstrated in rats. More recently, a lipid-rich extract of stabilized GLM has been shown to be a potent, but relatively slow-acting, anti-inflammatory agent, with the highest anti-inflammatory activity being found in the polyunsaturated free fatty acid (PUFA) component of the mussel.


Quote from: Batyr University

Mussel Extract Beneficial for Asthma Sufferers

In this double-blind study, 46 individuals with asthma who had never been treated with steroids were randomly assigned to receive two capsules of a lipid extract of New Zealand green-lipped mussel (Lyprinol®) twice a day or a placebo for eight weeks. Compared with the placebo group, the group receiving Lyprinol experienced a significant decrease in daytime wheezing and a significant improvement in the ability to move air through the bronchial passages (peak expiratory flow rate). Participants receiving the mussel extract also had fewer nighttime awakenings and required less asthma medication than did participants in the placebo group, although these differences were not statistically significant.

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Lancaster

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Re: Lyprinol - A New Anti-Inflammatory Option ...
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2010, 08:56:50 PM »

How is your Lyprinol experiment going george?
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slowandsteady

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NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2010, 11:11:31 AM »

TGF-beta 1 is significantly associated with Peyronies Disease (1,2).

N-acetyl-L-cysteine (NAC) and alpha lipoic acid blocked the effect of TGF-beta 1 that was induced by serotonin (in rat kidney cells) in this study (3). That reminds me that some people have reported that melatonin made things worse for them. In this study, NAC normalized TGF-beta 1 levels and ALA did almost as well. Serotonin induced TGF-beta 1 by quite a lot, I was surprised to find.

Other studies have found ALA to inhibit renal fibrosis (4). Hopefully it would help out in the tunica too.
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GS

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2010, 12:04:20 PM »

Melatonin

I have taken melatonin for several years now as a sleep aid.  I had never heard anything negative about it.  Obviously, if is is not good for Peyronies patients, I will find something else to help me sleep.  Slowandsteady, can you expand on it making Peyronies worse.

GS
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slowandsteady

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2010, 02:46:08 PM »

Melatonin

I have taken melatonin for several years now as a sleep aid.  I had never heard anything negative about it.  Obviously, if is is not good for Peyronies patients, I will find something else to help me sleep.  Slowandsteady, can you expand on it making Peyronies worse.

GS

Some have found it makes autoimmune conditions worse. It may increase serotonin. Since serotonin is used in making melatonin, supplementing serotonin might mean that there is more serotonin around. On the other hand, that's the case in the brain, and I don't know whether it applies to sites outside of the brain.

FWIW, I haven't noticed much difference with or without melatonin. You might want to try glycine as a sleep aid; I find it works great, and it has some studies behind it.
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slowandsteady

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2010, 03:04:22 PM »

I've been finding NAC (I use this one, two on waking and 2 before bed) more helpful than I expected. I had been taking it before, though only at 600mg/day.

I'm actually seeing improvement in my hourglassing (the shape of the side that I first got Peyronies Disease on seems to be more normal now).

Caveats: I don't know

  • if the NAC is responsible; the SSKI that I've been on for a couple of months might be involved
  • if progress will continue

s&s
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young25

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2010, 12:43:34 PM »

any more progress S&S
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slowandsteady

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #25 on: March 11, 2010, 06:41:36 PM »

any more progress S&S

Not so much. The changes I'm seeing haven't been particularly fast.
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alexk

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2010, 12:06:18 PM »

I have taken melatonin for several years now as a sleep aid.  I had never heard anything negative about it.  Obviously, if is is not good for Peyronies patients, I will find something else to help me sleep.

Try valerian. That stuff is extremely effective.

Some have found it makes autoimmune conditions worse. It may increase serotonin.

You are correct, high levels of serotonin can be found in many pathological diseases. High serotonin levels can also lead to fibrosis. No time to look up sources now, but the info is out there.

You might want to try glycine as a sleep aid; I find it works great, and it has some studies behind it.

I've never heard that glycine helped with sleep. I do know that it is antifibrotic, and makes up about 35% of the collagen matrix. Since the tunica albuginea is mostly made up of collagen, taking glycine will probably help.

slowandsteady, didn't you post a while ago about having myofascial trigger points? I bet you are serotonin-dominant. The proper medical tests can determine this. It could be the primary source of your ailments.

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alexk

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2010, 12:19:25 PM »

Serotonin induced TGF-beta 1 by quite a lot, I was surprised to find.

Thanks for that link, that's really something. I recently found out that I'm serotonin-dominant. This helps to explain a lot.
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slowandsteady

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2010, 01:26:14 AM »

Glycine study. I love the stuff.
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alexk

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2010, 11:37:50 AM »

slowandsteady, you posted a while back about muscle knots, have you noticed any improvement in that area, particularly since taking glycine?

Also, misformatted link in your original post, reposted here for the benefit of others:
Glycine study repost

Glycine can be calming because it prevents overstimulation of the NMDA receptors, which can be working overtime in stressed-out people and continue working well into the night, affecting quality of sleep.
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slowandsteady

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2010, 01:40:09 AM »

My muscle knots have gotten much better, but I have been attributing that to taking magnesium (glycinate) and potassium iodide (not that I'm necessarily right).
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alexk

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2010, 01:29:54 PM »

My muscle knots have gotten much better, but I have been attributing that to taking magnesium (glycinate) and potassium iodide (not that I'm necessarily right).

Glad to hear it. For me the worsening of muscle trigger points was inseparable from worsening of Peyronies Disease symptoms and a general state of inflammation and anxiety.

The interesting overlap between magnesium, glycine, potassium, and iodine is that they all play a role in calcium function (possibly by preventing calcium from rushing into a cell and causing overexcitation). Magnesium, through its action as a natural calcium channel blocker; glycine, through its action on the NMDA receptor and associated glutamate-potentiated excitation of calcium; potassium, through similar electrolyte actions as magnesium; and iodine, through its role in thyroid function (and therefore, regulation of calcium). Could be a stretch but I did notice a relationship there. I tried taking calcium a few times and it would always lead to worsening of muscle cramps and anxiety.

Taking vitamin D really helped with the muscle issues as well, it's another calcium-related compound.
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Lennyman

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2010, 06:05:12 PM »

Slow and Steady-- You should look into cupping, and accu-punture for you muscle knots    Lenny
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Lenny was here  :)

despise

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2010, 03:46:23 AM »

I am on a SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor) called lexapro, which causes my serotonin to linger more in my brain. And I also have a lot of muscle knots all over my back and I am only 19 years old. I can't make sense of what you guys are saying, but can the lexapro be making my peyronies and muscle knots worse? I'm sorry I don't understand everything you guys are talking about. You guys are obviously very knowledgable and I'm not. I have noticed my peyronies has gotten worse, but I'm believing that's because I stopped taking L-arginine and discontinued ved therapy, which I'm getting back into asap.
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alexk

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2010, 12:04:29 PM »

I am on a SSRI (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor) called lexapro, which causes my serotonin to linger more in my brain. And I also have a lot of muscle knots all over my back and I am only 19 years old. I can't make sense of what you guys are saying, but can the lexapro be making my peyronies and muscle knots worse? I'm sorry I don't understand everything you guys are talking about. You guys are obviously very knowledgable and I'm not. I have noticed my peyronies has gotten worse, but I'm believing that's because I stopped taking L-arginine and discontinued ved therapy, which I'm getting back into asap.

That is exactly the assertion here. Any type of neurotransmitter imbalance is going to have serious impacts on your health. SSRIs are known to affect libido and sensitivity. Other research posted here indicates a connection between serotonin and inflammation. Some studies have also found high serotonin levels in people with fibromyalgia and other myalgic conditions (some have found low levels too, so caveat emptor). And finally, when L-tryptophan was banned for sale in the US, it was because some people taking it developed an incurable disease called Eisophilia Myalgia Syndrome (note the term "myalgia," meaning muscle pain). It's not known whether the syndrome was due to the L-tryptophan itself or impurities introduced during the manufacturing process. But it's intriguing that the symptoms of Serotonin Syndrome (a potentially fatal condition caused by too much serotonin) include muscle pain.

So basically, there's a lot of overlap between serotonin excess and muscle issues. Like everything else, it's probably a multifactorial issue (i.e. I posted below about the potential role calcium hypersensitivity in muscle knots). But there is some evidence for serotonin having a role in muscle pain and inflammation.

For most psychiatrists, the default response to a depressive patient is to prescribe an SSRI, and I have no idea why. When I was working on my psych degree I couldn't figure out why there were so many SSRI drugs but so few drugs that worked the other way around. When a psychiatrist prescribes an SSRI, they are assuming that you need to be calmed down, but instead, you might need more of the stimulatory neurotransmitters like dopamine. I've often wondered if the real function of SSRIs is simply to sedate patients and get them to stop asking difficult questions.

SSRIs can be extremely harmful if the patient's neurotransmitter balance is already shifted towards serotonin. Serotonin needs to be balanced out by the catacholamines (dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine). They compete for uptake by the brain (there is only so much bandwidth available for neurotransmitters). Instead of handing out SSRIs like candy, these so-called professionals should be testing their patient's neurotransmitter levels via urinalysis of metabolites like 5-hydroxyindoleacetate (5-HIA, a product of serotonin breakdown), vanilmandelate (a product of dopamine breakdown), and homovanillate (a product of epi/norepi breakdown).

Many labs can run these kind of tests. One such lab is NeuroScience. Their Neuro-Adrenal profile also checks other neurotransmitters like GABA and stress hormones like cortisol. If you're taking an SSRI without knowing which neurotransmitters you actually need, it could be making your symptoms worse.

I've been through these types of tests and the info they provide is absolutely priceless. PM me if you want more info on my specific case. I've never taken SSRIs but I did take 5-HTP for a while and I never want to feel that way again. Also, see my thread Amino acid testing and therapy for more info on how amino acid function is related to Peyronies Disease (and some thoughts on your idea about taking arginine). Neurotransmitters like serotonin are also made from amino acids. Just another reason why people should be running to their doctor to get these tests instead of wondering WTF is wrong with them (no offense) and taking random supplements based on obscure medical research.

I've also seen people try to discontinue long-term SSRI prescriptions and it's not pretty. Feelings of electrical shocks in your head, heart palpitations, vomiting... they're some pretty nasty drugs in my opinion. I'm sure 100 people will come out of the woodwork to tell me that SSRIs are really helpful and kept them from committing suicide, etc. Everyone's brain is different. I'm just trying to put some information out there so people can make informed decisions. Don't guess, test.
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George999

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2010, 03:36:42 PM »

I would agree with Alex that not enough testing is done in making diagnoses and determining treatment.  I have had some rather broad nutritional testing done and it has proven very valuable.  So I second his suggestions in this regard.  How to make it happen, however, is the problem.  If one has the money to find and hire a cooperative physician, no problem.  But if one is at the mercy of public care or some sort of health plan, well, tough luck.  - George
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alexk

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Re: NAC and ALA cocktail
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2010, 11:23:14 PM »

How to make it happen, however, is the problem.  If one has the money to find and hire a cooperative physician, no problem.  But if one is at the mercy of public care or some sort of health plan, well, tough luck.

Very good point. For us Americans, maybe recent health care change will shake things up for the better. What happened to me is that I finally just gave up on clueless MDs and went to a naturopath. It cost a lot of money but instead of being a know-it-all and rushing me out so he could see the next patient, he listened to what I was going through and read the research that I presented with interest. We ended up doing a few different tests that gave me some extremely useful information that directly guided changes to my supplementation and nutrition.

These types of tests can actually be ordered directly from certain websites like Integrative Psychiatry. They are still expensive, and your only partner in interpretation is named Google, but at least you won't have to wade through the health system (at great expense) to find the right doctor. slowandsteady posted a good link on the Amino acid testing and therapy thread. For a $75 membership you can get a very thorough amino acid profile for just over $100. Some hospitals will do the blood draw for a small fee, or even for free.

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MikeSmith0

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ANTIOXIDANTS, ANTI INFLAMMATORY & other medications
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2010, 11:46:23 AM »

These meds are prescribed to women who have capsular contracture after breast augmentation (hard scar tissue that forms around the implant).  They think the inhibition of the leukotrienes by these meds is what decreases inflammation and scar tissue. 

I'm wondering if anyone here is on them & got Peyronies Disease anyway.  It's an interesting idea, but accolate is a pain to take (2 hrs w/o food, etc) and there have been cases of liver toxicity and death from liver damage.  I'm not sure if you need blood tests while taking this.
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George999

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Astaxanthin - Super Antioxidant ...
« Reply #38 on: April 17, 2011, 09:52:05 PM »

I am wondering if anyone around here has tried mega doses of Astaxanthin.  There are some pretty amazing studies out there showing *extreme* antioxidant/anti-inflammatory capabilities.  I have been following it for a while and am planning to start messing around with it shortly.

Quote


Mol Nutr Food Res. 2011 Jan;55(1):150-65. doi: 10.1002/mnfr.201000414. Epub 2010 Nov 18.
Potential health-promoting effects of astaxanthin: a high-value carotenoid mostly from microalgae.

Yuan JP, Peng J, Yin K, Wang JH.

Guangdong Provincial Key Laboratory of Marine Resources and Coastal Engineering, School of Marine Sciences, Sun Yat-Sen University, Guangzhou, PR China. [email protected]

Abstract

The ketocarotenoid astaxanthin can be found in the microalgae Haematococcus pluvialis, Chlorella zofingiensis, and Chlorococcum sp., and the red yeast Phaffia rhodozyma. The microalga H. pluvialis has the highest capacity to accumulate astaxanthin up to 4-5% of cell dry weight. Astaxanthin has been attributed with extraordinary potential for protecting the organism against a wide range of diseases, and has considerable potential and promising applications in human health. Numerous studies have shown that astaxanthin has potential health-promoting effects in the prevention and treatment of various diseases, such as cancers, chronic inflammatory diseases, metabolic syndrome, diabetes, diabetic nephropathy, cardiovascular diseases, gastrointestinal diseases, liver diseases, neurodegenerative diseases, eye diseases, skin diseases, exercise-induced fatigue, male infertility, and HgCl₂-induced acute renal failure. In this article, the currently available scientific literature regarding the most significant activities of astaxanthin is reviewed.

Copyright © 2011 WILEY-VCH Verlag GmbH & Co. KGaA, Weinheim.

PMID: 21207519 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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crashbandit

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Re: Astaxanthin - Super Antioxidant ...
« Reply #39 on: April 17, 2011, 11:01:00 PM »

It's really cheap stuff, which is a nice bonus. I just starting popping these again recently. I've tried substituting Astaxanthin for ubiquinol at one time but went back to ubiquinol when my pain came back. Now the pain is still not gone and I'm going to try Astaxanthin again, but stick with it for longer this time. I really need something to turn this tide of inflammation.

What is considered a mega dose of astaxanthin? Are you going to take the mega dose yourself George? And also continue taking Ubiquinol?

If you don't mind me asking George, but what does your current oral regime consist of?
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Cheers

George999

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Re: Astaxanthin - Super Antioxidant ...
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2011, 11:23:05 PM »

What I am reading would seem to indicate that it takes at least 8mg a day of this stuff to be effective.  I haven't even ordered the stuff yet.  I have taken it before with no effect, but I was only taking 6mg 2X/week.  At this point I am thinking about taking 4mg 4X/day.  I heard about it from Dr Mercola on the Dr Oz show.  He swears by it along with Ubiquinol and Fish Oil.  So I just have to give it a fair try.

I am currently using only Ubiquinol for the Peyronie's issue.  I have stopped Pentox temporarily due to needing to deal with a fungal infection.  Since Pentox has an immune suppression effect and it will take me a month to kill off this long standing fungal skin infection (years longstanding), I am stopping Pentox until I get it thoroughly killed.  I finally got tired of it and recently identified it as being fungal (multiple doctors couldn't figure out what it was, but told me not to worry about it).  Sometimes I don't know what we pay doctors for, but I guess they are not anymore infallible than the rest of us.  Of course I am taking a number of other supplements including D3, but none that directly affect Peyronies.  I am mostly trying to attack hypertension at this point, and I like Astaxanthin in relation to that as well.  - George
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newguy

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Re: Astaxanthin - Super Antioxidant ...
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2011, 01:13:40 AM »


George - I've stuck with pentox for a couple of years now, and I definitely agree with your immunity comments. I have tended to pick up a few colds last year and it's no fun. It could be due to my fidgety nature (i often touch my face etc so could be getting colds due to that). I'm thinking of giving pentox six more months in combination with daily traction, then having a break at that point to see where I am. I have notived a gradual improvement over two years now, so obviously something I've done in regards to my treatment regimen is working. I took pictures to make sure its not all in my head. I'm hoping that with this traction push, I can effectively say goodbye to peyuronie's being much of an issue. The hinging that I originall had when I joined is gone etc. Improvements can be so slow though, that it's hard to truly appreciate them for what they are.
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slowandsteady

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ORAL TREATMENTS – Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2012, 09:57:12 PM »

I've written about the similarities between plantar fasciitis (PF) and Peyronies Disease. They are both instances of 1) trapped inflammation 2) involving scar tissue buildup and 3) involving tissues containing types 1 and 3 collagen.

Looking into treatments for PF, I came across some anecdotal reports of individuals using guaifenesin. Guaifenesin has also been used off-label to treat fibromyalgia (such treatment is controversial).

Anyway, I decided to give it a try for PF, using the slow release form recommended in the Dr. St. Amand protocol. Much to my surprise it seemed to work wonders. The foot pain went away, and the plantar fascia got that itchy feeling you get when tissue is healing. Now, this is one person's report, not a controlled trial. Maybe it would have gone away anyway (I've had it for about 15 months and went through physical therapy in Jan/Feb), but my gut instinct is that it really helped.

If anyone wants to give it a shot for Peyronies Disease, I used the Mucinex brand, starting at 600 mg/twice daily. I've since cut back to just 300 mg in the mornings. The dosing guidelines for congestion are up to 1200 mg/twice daily, so those smaller doses should be safe, though of course I am not a doctor.
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George999

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Re: Guaifenesin
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2012, 11:05:50 PM »

Its certainly dirt cheap and relatively safe, at least for short term use.  I would certainly be interesting to see its affects on acute flare ups of pain.  It is apparently known to have neurological effects as well as other interesting modes of action.  - George
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Luciano

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Re: Guaifenesin
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2012, 12:38:37 PM »

Sounds very interesting... BUT
i would not want to be the first one to test it, because you also find:
Quote
Guaifenesin's neurological properties first became known in the late 1940s, and it is widely used in veterinary medicine to induce and maintain anesthesia in horses and llamas. In contrast to other propanediol drugs used for this purpose, guaifenesin has less hemolytic activity (i.e., less destruction of red blood cells) and is more soluble in water.
It would be interesting to get a follow up after testing it.
Luc
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james1947

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Re: Guaifenesin
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2012, 08:44:07 AM »

I am somehow confused regarding this medicine. According to:
http://health.yahoo.net/goldcontent/guaifenesin
is used mainly for treating cough.
On Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaifenesin
As I understand from there is a natural medicine.
Quote
Treatment of fibromyalgia
Because of its uricosuric effect, guaifenesin was chosen in the 1990s for the experimental guaifenesin protocol – a treatment for fibromyalgia. Proponents of the guaifenesin protocol believe that it treats fibromyalgia by removing excess phosphate from the body. However, a consumer alert on the Fibromyalgia Network's website[10] states that Dr. St. Amand's claims of guaifenesin's effects on fibromyalgia are groundless, and cites double-blind research by Robert Bennett, M.D., which found no significant differences between guaifenesin and a placebo in terms of any effect on fibromyalgia or its markers.[11]. Of note, the study by Bennett was completed in 1995. Besides the small numbers (16 guaifenesin, 15 placebo) and failure to warn patients about the blocking effects of salicylates other flaws in the project have been fully discussed by St. Amand (project consultant) on website, fibromyalgiatreatment.com.
Guaifenesin has not been approved by the FDA for the treatment of fibromyalgia, but no other clinical studies have been reported. The protocol has been adopted by many patients because of the anecdotal evidence of success.
Is plantar fasciitis = fibromyalgia?
How it connects to Peyronie's?

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

George999

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Re: Guaifenesin
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2012, 10:08:48 AM »

Quote
Is plantar fasciitis = fibromyalgia?
How it connects to Peyronie's?

The connection is that Plantar Fasciitis, Fibromyalgia, and Peyronie's are ALL DEGENERATIVE DISEASES with INFLAMMATORY, QUASI AUTO-IMMUNE factors involved.  Thus, any treatment that works on one of them becomes interesting in terms of potential treatment value for any of the others on the list.  That does NOT necessarily mean it would work.  It simply makes it something to try and cross off the list.  I am really using the same approach, although I prefer to work from the common root cause which I view as being the blood sugar/insulin factor.  - George
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slowandsteady

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Re: Guaifenesin
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2012, 10:21:58 PM »

Other similarities between plantar fasciitis and Peyronie's is that diseases involve dysfunction specifically in type I and III collagen and both the physical structure of the plantar fascia and the tunica albuginea trap inflammation.

Guaifenesin is typically used for thinning the mucus in the lungs when someone has a cold, but for me it just happens to work really well for plantar fasciitis. It might be worthwhile for others to do a quick trial to see if it is helpful for their Peyronies Disease. My Peyronies Disease is thankfully so much in the background lately that I can't tell.
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james1947

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Re: Guaifenesin
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2012, 09:43:21 PM »

From trying to understand how to categorise this medicine I come over:
http://web.mit.edu/london/www/guai.html
Quote
The Truths and Myths of the use of Guaifenesin for Fibromyalgia
or
Guaifenesin:  One Medicine, Several Effects
by Mark London

slowandsteady
As you are taking this drug, maybe will be interesting for you to read the document (if you didn't read it yet).
How you categorise this medicine? As pain killer or something else?

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

Mark

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Oral treatments – Questions & Suggestions
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2012, 05:13:23 AM »

Hello,

at first, sorry for my bad english. I am from germany. I am 35 years old. Since 6 month i have IPP with pain during a erection but at the moment without a deformation. (fingers crossed)

What is the best way to stop the IPP?

I try since 5 days cialis 5mg / 1 day. The morning erections are so strong, that i wake up always from the pain.

When i read this:
http://peyronies-disease-help.com/peyronies-treatment-cialis/

I have some worries. Should i stay on Cialis or what should i do?
Thank your for advice.

Warm Regards
Marc
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