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Author Topic: HYPERTHERMIA - Infrared light & Heating therapy  (Read 140128 times)

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Joshua

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HYPERTHERMIA - Infrared light & Heating therapy
« on: August 22, 2005, 05:11:33 PM »

I have had some recent good fortune of ABOUT a fifty percent plaque nodule reduction! The reduction has come within the last thirty days. I think it has been even sooner but I am going to go with 30 days to be safe. This is an absolute reduction. I can plainly tell that the plaque nodule went from about the size of a half of a marble to half of a pea. My wife even felt the nodule and stated that she thought it was almost gone now.

I am going to go through the forum and enter the exact treatments I have been using within the last thirty days in the appropriate topics areas.

I am posting this for information only. I can’t promise and don’t promise any results if you follow what I have been doing. I don’t know if the results were based on what I have been doing or if I have just experienced a natural regression.

This section I will tell about a treatment that I have been using for a couple of weeks which absolutely falls into “alternative treatments”

My philosophy on Peyronies Disease treatment is that if it seems safe and there is a shred of evidence something might help, then I use it! I will throw everything but the damn kitchen sink at my Peyronies Disease.

In reference to the hyperthermia report that was posted on the news section. I was fascinated by that report and did some research on the net. I decided to make a home treatment system using an infrared lamp (250 watt bulb). I then covered all the exposed areas of my penis except the area with the plaque nodule and allowed the heat lamp to warm the nodule area. I position myself to about 12-16 inches. I get as close as I can stand the heat. I allow the heat to penetrate for 30 to 40 minutes. I have done this every other night for about the last two weeks. It does something because the nodule is usually sore after using this treatment. My research shows that at that distance and with that amount of wattage I should get about 3 to 4 inches of infrared heat penetration. 

Objective: Previous experience in the treatment of plaque with hyperthermia in orthopaedics led the authors to investigate the effectiveness of this approach in patients with Peyronie's disease.Patients and methods: The study population comprised 60 patients (aged 36-76 years) with advanced Peyronie's disease. Patients were divided into two groups (A and B), with 30 in each. Group A patients underwent local hyperthermia treatment, with 30-min treatment sessions twice a week for 5 weeks. Patients received a total of 10 applications, which reached a local temperature of 39-40 degrees C. A second cycle was repeated after a 1-month interval for a total of 20 treatment sessions. Group B patients were treated with intra-plaque infiltrations using 10?mg verapamil; they received one infiltration once a week for 3 months. Differences between the two groups, as well as between variables (before and after treatment), were analysed using Student t-test and Fisher test.Results: Hyperthermia significantly reduced plaque size and penile curvature and led to an increase in mean scores of erectile function (EF) domain, while verapamil had no such effects. Haemodynamic parameters were not significantly modified in either group. Hyperthermia caused significantly fewer side effects than verapamil infiltrations and was significantly more effective in preventing disease progression. There were no significant differences between the two groups in terms of pain reduction during erection.Conclusions: Results of this study stress the efficacy of hyperthermia in the treatment of advanced Peyronie's disease.
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Hawk

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2005, 11:33:35 AM »

Actually infrared lamps are pretty common for everything from keeping young chicks alive to keeping those nutritious French Fries at McDonalds warm.  I think you could buy one at any large drug store or Wal-Mart.

My question, (one of many) is that I think this study used water.  Would moist heat verses dry heat matter?  Why would daily baths or Jacuzzi not work provided the temperature was correct (102 - 104 F)?  When I had physical therapy on my knee they used a microwave unit to deep heat it.  They actually use them on people's heads, which would concern me but it clearly heated deep into the tissue.  

I know the ladies at PT real well.  They are a riot and I think they would get a kick out of a weenie roast.
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2005, 12:12:28 PM »

Infared Heating Lamp Bulb:
I could only find them at Home depot. I will try and find a link that shows the exact bulb. The bulb is typically red in color and about 250 watts strong. It will clearly state that it is an infared bulb.

Hawk:
I did not see anything in the resrach material that indicated water. I know Will has posted something about that on BTC. However, this report does not appear to indicate moist/water based heat. I could be wrong...
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nick

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2005, 12:17:16 PM »

So what is your routine. Do you like play Mcdonalds and through you junk under a heat lamp. I'm trying to picture this and just not seeing it. I could maybe see putting a lamp between your legs but 250 watts that would bet a little warm on the thighs. If it worked for you to and degree I'm willing to try it. No harm no foul right.
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flexor

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2005, 03:57:57 PM »

Just to give Joshua some encouragement for his thermal treatment:

Here in the UK we have a restaurant called the "Fat Duck", one of the few restarants to rate 3 Michelin stars. It is run by a chef Heston Blumenthal whose two trade marks are (a) mixing unusual combinations of flavours - eg snail porridge (don't laugh - it is apparently very popular), and (b) researching the molecular compounds of dishes to better understand taste & flavour. His is a very scientific approach to cooking.

He was on a TV food program recently, with a recipe for roast beef - basically, brown the joint with a flame to seal it, then put it in the oven at 50 degrees C for 20 hours, which long cooking at low temperature gives very tender meat.

He gave an explanation for this. I wish I had paid more attention. He said the fibres of the meat are held together by collagen. He had a picture showing tangled lines. High temperature cooking locks this structure in making the meat tough. However, the cooking at low temperature relaxes and straightens the collagen, so that it softens -  a picture showed the lines straight - and the meat becomes tender to eat. I think he said the collagen became gelatine.

It crossed my mind at the time that this might be a solution to softening the plaque, though my thinking did not go much further than wondering if I stuck my penis in a hot oven for 20 hours, it might work wonders for the plaque, but what would it do to the rest of me.

Joshua may find that it is just the temperature that counts rather than the amount of infra-red penetration.

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dcaptain

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2005, 04:53:36 PM »

Joshua, one follow up question - were you aiming for a specific target temperature (at the nodule)?  I'm just curious as flexor's point about low heat cooking is interesting...

dcaptain
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2005, 07:34:05 PM »

I was aiming for 103-105, since that is the range the report claims to be effective.  Honestly, I have no damn idea what temperature I am getting. i have been taking it as hot as possible without pain or burning. I would call it a deep very warm feeling.  :)
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2005, 09:05:42 AM »

I am finding that this heat program works better if you give it a day or two of rest/break between heat treatments.

Is anyone else using heat in any form for treatment?
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nick

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2005, 11:08:20 AM »

I was using a heating pad for awhile. On high it is 140.2 degrees. My kids came down from Cali. for the summer so I have been using it much. I will get back on it when they go home. I noticed a reduction in pain.. Another interesting side note with heat. I was using the Thacker formula. As I call it I was packed and wrapped. So I'm sitting there watching some t.v. enjoying the lovely stench. So out of curiosity I put the heating pad on while using the the Thacker's. After about 10 min. or so I started feeling the off feeling. It's was really hard to describe. Kind of a tingling maybe. It was like a bunch of little tiny ants charged with electricity moving throught the scar.  The feeling was unmistakable there may be something to this. I tried it a second time and the feeling wasn't quite the same but there was still a feeling. So my vote there is someting to the heat. Also a hot bath of about 110 degrees for really did nothing for me.  So Joshua do you like put a UV bulb in a lamp and sit with it between your legs ?
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nick

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2005, 12:09:36 PM »

here's a quick little blurb I found on the subject.

Infrared Light Therapy—Photon Stimulation
The photon stimulator uses the healing properties of heat and light—heat photons in the near infrared range. This form of treatment has a wide variety of applications, ranging from musculoskeletal conditions to neurological disorders. It can be a highly effective intervention for chronic pain, and it accelerates healing time for all injuries. NASA studies have recently been published documenting that infrared light therapy speeds the healing process by 50%. Infrared waves gently promote circulation and healing by penetrating the tissue to a depth of 10 inches. Photon stimulation is now provided as standard treatment on submarines for the U.S. Navy Seals.

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nick

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2005, 01:24:45 PM »

there honestly wasn't much else but the center specializes in Infrared therepy. The also specify Peyronies Disease. Here's the link.

http://www.healthmedicineinstitute.com/body.cfm?id=49#infrared

these are all the conditions
 http://www.healthmedicineinstitute.com/body.cfm?id=8
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nick

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2005, 03:41:19 PM »

I was wonder about the idea of infrared light and a VED. My thought is since the pump is clear plastic the light and warmth would penetrate. Hell even slather some thackers formula on before the pump. Does anyone think there would be any harm in that.  There are many times that I have wished I could heat up my junk while pumping. If the 2 by themselves could help what about together ?
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nick

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2005, 04:16:51 PM »

Joshua I'm sorry to keep bugging you on this. I'm very interested in your treatment. So do you use like a desk lamp or something ? It there anything special that needs to be done?  I'm sure I'll figure out my own method but I would like to start by going what you are doing.
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2005, 12:14:44 AM »

I attached a picture of the type of light you need. It has to be rated for a 250 watt bulb. You can get the one shown at Wal mart for under $10 bucks. I could only find the 250 watt infared bulb at Home depot. I hope this helps.
Joshua
P.S you are not bugging me at all. I just hope this helps you some.
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nick

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2005, 12:28:21 PM »

Thank you so much The pic was cool. the only bulb I could find was 125 watt. it was also white. It does say that it is infrared. They had a spot for the 250 watt but they were out.
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2005, 03:04:40 PM »

I suggest you get the 250w. Keep me updated on your progress. I have not done the heat treatment in about a week. I am giving it a rest. I feel strongly about using the heat applications and then giving it a day or two of rest.
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flexor

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2005, 03:11:17 PM »

Joshua: I suspect youmay need a lot less heat than you think.

The report stated that the temperature for the experiment was 39 - 40 degrees C. Body temperature is only 37 degrees C, so we are lookng at on between 2 and 13 degrees above body temperature.
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2005, 03:17:37 PM »

Flexor:
My understanding was the plaque nodule itself must be raised to at least 39 - 40 degrees. I would assume that it takes good penetration, time and descent heat to penetrate the skin and warm the entire internal area of the plaque nodule. I think the infrared is great but I also think other forms of actual moist heat would be beneficial as well.  I feel a gentle warmth to the area of the skin will do little.  This is all guessing on my part. I can't back a word of it up.
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flexor

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2005, 03:56:59 PM »

I'm looking at the summary of the hyperthermia experiment listed by Joshua (reply #1).

Just concentrating on the non-Verapamil patients, this is what it reports.

Local heat was applied, at 39-40 degrees C, for 30 minutes. This was done twice per week for 5 weeks. Then there was a break of 4 weeks, followed by ten more weeks of twice-weekly treatment. The result was significantly reduced plaque size, reduced penile curvature, and an improvement in erectile function.

I wonder: what if you took a bath, of a depth to cover the plaque, and you sat in the bath for 30 minutes, topping it up to maintain a temperature of 39-40 degrees C; and if you did this twice a week for five weeks, then four weeks off, then twice a week for the next ten weeks; the only difference between this and the above, is that the above was local heating, whereas a bath is more general.

Question: would you get the same results ? Is that really all you would have to do to improve your Peyronies Disease ?
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Hawk

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2005, 04:19:11 PM »

I wonder: what if you took a bath, of a depth to cover the plaque, and you sat in the bath for 30 minutes, topping it up to maintain a temperature of 39-40 degrees C; and if you did this twice a week for five weeks, then four weeks off, then twice a week for the next ten weeks; the only difference between this and the above, is that the above was local heating, whereas a bath is more general.

Question: would you get the same results ? Is that really all you would have to do to improve your Peyronies Disease ?
Flexor, I have wondered the same.  Does the general heating of the legs etc from a bath or hot tub minimize the blood flow to the specific areas of plaque?  To me it seems unlikely that it would minimize the effect.  What percentage of Peyronies Disease patients are in a bath or hot tub 2 times a week for 30 minutes?  My guess, is a lot.  The only alternative is a shower or being a total crub in which case Peyronies Disease is a minor concern. :D

The problem is that we have sketchy information on the hyperthermia.  Was the heating done with sonic or microwave units that heat from the inside out?  Was the skin surface just maintained at 102F degrees for 30 minutes?

One final note of caution.  A recent study was concluded that analyzed scholarly papers at random.  It concluded that over 50% of scholarly papers draw faulty conclusion. (Maybe that study was wrong).  Reasons given included too small of a sample, and researcher bias.  Some of our information comes from the opening two paragraphs of studies that must be purchased before you can see the entire study. 
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2005, 07:26:52 PM »

hawk stated:Was the heating done with sonic or microwave units that heat from the inside out?  Was the skin surface just maintained at 102F degrees for 30 minutes?

That is my point. If you read about hyperthermia that is exactly what they do. That is why I think a bath or plain hot applications will do NOTHING. An infrared heating lamp can penetrate at least a few inches. It is not even close to what they are doing to heat the plaque BUT I think it is enough that it will help over a period of time. That is why I pointed out that a 250w bulb is a must. Also you must increase your applications to at least every other day or so. I would also assume this is going to be a longer slower process but I feel it may help. If I think something may help, I do it. As long as it is safe. I have read about infrared heating applications. I suggest anyone interested bin this treatment do some personal research on infrared heat lamps for therapy and hyperthermia.

I think it is important to remember: you are not trying to heat the skin to 102-103 you are trying to penetrate and heat the plaque nodule to that temp.

Joshua
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Hawk

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2005, 09:13:29 PM »

I think it is important to remember: you are not trying to heat the skin to 102-103 you are trying to penetrate and heat the plaque nodule to that temp.
Joshua[/color]

First, I don't know about you, but if I heat a few inches deep thru the diameter of my penis, I am likely to be starting a fire on the other side. :D  The tunica is only a small fraction of an inch from the surface.  How deep can plaque go?  Next, are we SURE they used microwave?  I suspect they could only measure the temperature of what they applied to the skin.  I have had microwave on the knee for 30 minutes 3 times a week and there was no way to even estimate the internal temperature other than telling me to let them know if felt too hot.  I am only guessing, but I think they are talking about skin temperature and suggesting 30 minutes at that temp will penetrate the needed half an inch to the deepest plaque.  I cannot imagine that 106 degrees would do damage however, because many heat treatments exceed that temperature.

Bottom line: And this is important, we are all guessing.  Someone, go buy the report and tell us.  I am certain that the report is copyrighted information and canNOT be posted on the forum.
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dcaptain

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2005, 12:16:28 AM »

Lord knows I'd apply concentrated tomato soup down there if it would help.   ;)  We absolutely are guessing - that is absolutely right. 

One question though, for a total heating-novice here...how does the infrared affect the dynamic of things?  I mean, my heating pad gets quite hot (over 125 degrees F), but if there's benefit to switching to infrared, I'll be at home depot before the store opens in the morning.  Sorry if this has been addresssed, I may have missed it....

 
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nick

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2005, 03:44:40 PM »

So I was wondering,  now go with me here. I've been thinking alot about heat. I have used heating pads and ward baths . They feel great, I have never used either for any thereputic benefit. They idea of infrared heat makes sense too.
    Do you know those massagers that vibrate. Does anyone feel that the vibration could be a benefit ? I know it good hurt. My thought is maybe the vibration could break up some of the fibrin.
    Now on to my point. I was at Target yesterday. They have these vibrating/infrared heat massagers. So I'm thinking it doesn't seem half bad.
i was at Brookstone a month or so ago and they had one out for demo. It sure felt good on the back. It got pretty warm too.   
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j

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2005, 08:45:06 PM »

Guys, I'd be very careful about this.

Collagen (including the type involved in Peyronie's) is a protein.  Peyronies Disease is an unwanted accumulation of collagen molecules cross-linked in a chaotic way that makes them inelastic and unstretchable. All the cells of your body are also made up of protein molecules bonded in various ways.

In the cooking process described earlier, heat causes collagen bonds to break. But when cooking meat we aren't concerned about damage to the cells. It may be that there is a temperature range where the collagen bonds break but the protein structures in the surrounding cells aren't harmed.   But it seems to me that range might be narrow, and hard to determine except by destructive experiments. 

If heat is actually being successfully used to break up scar tissue, someone must have researched this carefully and I'm guessing that the units supplying the heat must be accurately calibrated.

If you go beyond this range and start to 'cook' the surrounding tissue it's going to become tougher and less elastic. Exactly what we don't want.
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Hawk

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2005, 10:56:55 PM »

I could not agree more with j's  post.  I won't repeat it, only add that that full study cost around $30.  We read the teaser and we are off to experiment, not on rats, but our only penis.  I guess if it is totally non-functional, it makes some sense, but even then, why not buy the report.  Maybe its like the Headline that says “Is there a connection between Nutri-sweet and MS?"  You read the article in suspense only to find out the article shows no indication of a connection.  Some of these studies summaries are a draw.

To Nick, Please don't take offense, but let me ask a question.  If I think a vibrator would help, what use is that to you?  I know computer networks, how to shoot you between the eyes at 40 yards with a handgun, and how to train birds of prey.  Do you really care what my wild guess is on what an untried, unstudied physical treatment would do to YOUR penis?  That is too much like a movie star talking about foreign policy.  I don't think either of our opinions count.

Guessing, or taking my advice, rather than analyzing the entire study, is a scary way to save money.

PS: Nick, I think you know this, but I don’t post as Hawk or Hawkman on the other forum.
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2005, 11:05:33 PM »

I agree we need and should get the entire report. I will try and get it tomorrow. I spoke to my Dr and he said gentle safe use of a infared bulb should not damage tissue. However, he didn't think it would help Peyronies Disease either. I think it helps. I don't think it cures but I think gentle heat helps healing. 
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2005, 08:09:55 AM »

Guys, I am sorry I have not yet pulled the report. I have been swamped at work. I will try and locate it and pull it this weekend. I likely will not be able to repost it but I can possibly forward it via PM to a few of you guys that are interested. No,  I don’t think we are going to find a magic bullet in the report. I am simply hoping to find the heating source used for the studies. This study may have merit and possibly will not. However, using heat for an injury is not absurd. If used gently I can’t see where it will make your skin tough. I am not talking cooking your penis here, like a piece of meat. I am talking gentle, warm, and penetrating infrared heat.  It is likely not a cure but could help to a small degree. I understand J and Hawk being skeptic but I think as dangerous as it is to assume something works or has merit without looking at it closer, researching it more, trying it if it appears safe, and keeping an open mind about these studies. I think it is just as dangerous for us to become complete skeptics about every single study and idea someone suggest to find some relief. I am not suggesting Hawk and J are guilty of this. However, I have seen this on other Peyronies Disease forums and it irritates me. Those poor guys on the BTC that were trying the Thackers formula were just blasted. Poor Old man has been ripped for years because he claims the VED helped him. Can anyone here prove it did not and can not?? . These guys need support not heckling.  We need to keep an open mind, research, and support each other. There is possibly never going to be a magic bullet/cure for Peyronies Disease but just various forms of treatments to lessen the impact of this disease. I have improved over the last two years by 85%. I know you can get better. I have done it. I am not cured but I am working and getting closer everyday to where I was.
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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2005, 10:54:06 AM »

Joshua, you make some valid points, as did Hawk and others.  I always hesitate to suggest this (years of being "blasted" onthe BTC has taken it toll) but as you read this or anyother study, I would like to suggest you read (print it out for reference ..as reading it on a monitor is much more difficult) Dr Mulhall's paper "interrepreting medical liaterature" on our APDA site.

Often the concern is not if it will work, but if it will harm.  Medically heat is used often, but then so is cold.  How and why it affects what ever it is used on is only part of the issue.  Infra red is great, but in the heat penetration (especially since it is hard to focus a large bulb to a specific area) what else is affected?..and how does that specific tissue, or vascular area, respond to prolonged heat even gentle?...lots of questions, none of which I have the answer for. I do know this, as a nurse I worked in rehab ..we used ultra sound (heating) on specific areas..while the "amt" of pulse (heat)was calibrated, we also were taught NOt to focus it in one area for more than a second or so...and to constantly keep it in motion...reason..direct heat for any longer than that could and would damage the surrounding tissue...Infra red is not the same thing I realize, but again, no real studies, and there is the rub!

The study itself is important, but so are the contraindications, and whether or not it was controlled, how long the study was done, follow up, and how many were involved..lots of stuff to consider.

Keep Safe,
Marti
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kevin

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2005, 02:58:27 AM »

Joshua:
Do you feel that the heat is responsible for the change more than anything else you were doing recently (and can you summarize what those other efforts were?)

Besides the apparent reduction of plaque, is there any objective change in curvature that you can describe?  (That bottom-line is too often ignored when people report "improvement".)

Thanks.
Kevin
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2005, 05:46:45 PM »

My improvement is based on either the heat application, increase in l-carnitine, increase in l-arginine (i just started loading liguid l-arginine) or more natural reversal.

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flexor

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2005, 11:58:20 AM »

Following on Joshua’s post about heat treatment, I got a 250 watt IR lamp. It is huge. The picture on the box suggests one use is to provide a warm environment for day-old chicks. Considering that all we want to do it hold the plaque within a two-degree range, two degrees above body temperature, I do not see how you can control the heat output of the lamp or make it sufficiently local. It seems overkill to me.

What I have found more acceptable is a small IR lamp which is sold for minor aches and pains, in a hand-held unit rather like a shower head. The lamp is 7 watts power, and the unit has two settings, a high one, which is quite a low heat, and a low setting which is even lower.

Normally you would put the unit against the skin to relieve muscle ache, and it gives out a pleasant warmth, rather than heat.

I have found that on the low setting, I can direct the heat quite locally at the plaque, and testing with a skin surface thermometer, I have been unable to get a reading above 41 degrees C.

I think there could be something in this therapy, and if anyone else is trying it, they may find that a small lamp as I suggest is more convenient than a monster unit from Home Depot.
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2005, 04:20:06 PM »

Flexor:
I have not had a problem with the large IR unit. I got the idea from another site. www.thundersplace.com I admit it's an odd site but there are many intelligent guys/posts on that site. I found the site during some searching for IR uses. I am glad you are trying it. However, I winder if the unit you are using is getting enough heat into the plaque nodule. I know I am getting at least two inches of heat penetration.
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flexor

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2005, 03:19:14 PM »

cdm:

I’ve only been trying it a couple of weeks. The medical report was talking about a 19 week protocol (5 weeks on, 4 weeks  off, 10 weeks on) so it’s too early to say. I’ll keep you informed.

joshua;

My plaque is only just beneath the skin. I don’t feel the need to go in deeper. That’s why I am taking the skin surface temperature as being indicative of the plaque temperature

 I’m using a VED after the heating session: I reckon that of the plaque has been softened by the heat, it should be in a good condition for a little stretching.
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flexor

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2005, 03:38:42 PM »

Ref Larry’s post in the newsroom, I reckon that it’s not only the disease that is an orphan. Everyone believes that big pharma will not do what is necessary to find a cure for Peyronies Disease, because there will not be a big enough payback. But there are a couple of reports out there that could be followed through, that also seem to have become orphans.

There was a report from France where the Leriche technique had been used. I cannot find any other mention of a “Leriche technique”. They took ten men, and used a needle under the skinn to tear across the plaque. Five reported an improvement in curvature. They repeated the procedure on the remaining five. Three reported an improvement, and the other two went on to surgery.  This technique is not new – it’s used for plaque on the palm for Dupeytrens. You would have through that an 80% improvement would have been worth following up by someone in a duplicate experiment, either to confirm or reject the findings, without a great deal of expense, but this report seems to be an orphan.

The same applies to the report about the improvement due to hyperthermia. You would think that a university or teaching hospital would be interested in trying this, without a great deal of expenditure, to confirm or reject, but the report seems doomed to wander around – interesting, positive, but apparently not worth anyone’s while in the medical profession to follow up.

If either of these techniques were as effective as the reports claim, it could make a lot of difference to Peyronies Disease sufferers.
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change2005

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Re: Alternative Treatments
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2005, 11:52:47 PM »

Has anyone else had success with the Infra red light? It sounds like something that has a good chance of working.

I have never heard of anyone having success like this before.
If anyone has any new feedback I would love to hear it.

Joshua, are you still having success?
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phil

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2005, 10:36:21 AM »

Regarding the hyperthermal treatment, it must dilate the small blood vessels and increases circulation.  Maybe the increased blood flow helps the body repair the penis.  We all know it works with other muscle injuries. Soaking in a hot tub or using infrared can't hurt and might just help.  I wonder why doctors aren't recommending this as an early treatment method. 
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2005, 07:15:16 PM »

Has anyone else had success with the Infra red light? It sounds like something that has a good chance of working.

I have never heard of anyone having success like this before.
If anyone has any new feedback I would love to hear it.

Joshua, are you still having success?
I must admit I have cut back on my heat treatments. I would estimate that I am down to once every two or three weeks. I plan resuming regular treatments soon. I think it was of huge benefit to me. I did see plaque nodule reduction during the time I was using it. I am assuming it was part of the reason. I did some light pulling and stretching of my penis while it was “under the light”. I have reduced my curve to almost a natural curve. I have no pain. My erections are 100%. My main Peyronies Disease symptoms are now some indentions where the missing plaque was. I also feel like I may have had about 3/5 to1 inch loss in length.
Yes, I do recommend heat therapy.
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steven

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Re: Alternative Treatments
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2005, 12:27:32 AM »

Hey Joshua,

Were you also trying the VED with the above treatment? or just the infared treatment alone?

Steven
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2005, 08:01:17 AM »

Hey Joshua,

Were you also trying the VED with the above treatment? or just the infared treatment alone?

Steven
I was not seriously using the VED. I did have one and played around with it every now and then. However, I am about to get serious with my VED treatment to attempt to eliminate the indentions.
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learn4life

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Re: Alternative Treatments
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2005, 11:30:36 AM »

Hi Folks,

My question is to Joshua.

You have tried the infrared light method to try and help disolve the penile scars for Peyronies Disease.
Would you recommend it and why? If not then why also?

Thank you for your time.

"If you think Education is expensive, you should try ignorance."
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2005, 07:32:07 PM »

Hi Folks,

My question is to Joshua.

You have tried the infrared light method to try and help disolve the penile scars for Peyronies Disease.
Would you recommend it and why? If not then why also?

Thank you for your time.

"If you think Education is expensive, you should try ignorance."

Learn4life:

Yes, I would recommend it. I believe I realized many positive results from the treatment. It is time consuming and I recently strayed from my routine and I am currently not seeing any further improvement. However, I am preparing to start back within days. If you decide to try this treatment, please report back to us what benefits if any you notice.

Joshua
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jaysum

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2005, 09:19:57 AM »

Joshua, how are the heat treatments going with the Infrared lamp? Still showing improvement?
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flexor

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2005, 06:19:17 PM »

I am trying the IR treatment. Have done the 4 weeks on, 4 weeks off, and am just into the 15 week run. No improvement yet, but not disheartened - still some time to run.

I am using a small hand lamp, supplied to run off the mains for heating aching muscles etc. The lamp is 7 watt - much lower power than Joshua's. It has a two-position switch, with a high and low heat. The unit does not get hot, just warm.

I lounge in bed, and the lamp rests on the penis. I run the lamp for 5 minutes at high, and then switch to low. I also have an electronic forehead thermometer, which I use to monitor the session. Put the end in contact wth my penis, click, and you get a surface reading. With the low wattage setting, the surface temperature during a 30 minute session does not go above 41 def C.

In fact it is a very convenient way of doing it, not messy, the temperature is continuous, and I can read a paper or book or listen to the radio while I do it. Just time consuming (a point no-one has mentioned is how boring some of these repetitive treatments can be - maybe that's why people don't stick with them).

I am also doing the VED exercises, because I reckon that if the heat does soften the plaque, I want it to reset in a stretched position, not how it was.

I'll report any change.
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2005, 08:49:29 PM »

Flexor,

I am glad you are trying a form of the IR treatment. I know we discussed this before but I am still concerned that the internal areas of your plaque might not be getting enough heat to make a noticeable difference. The outer layer skin warmth and an internal deep penetrating temperature are different. I know exactly what kind of heat type source you are using. Good luck and keep us updated!
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jaysum

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Re: Alternative Treatments
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2005, 10:47:09 PM »

Joshua, I was very intrigued by your IR treatment comments and I have now done the 30-40 minutes 4 times (once every 3 days). I am using the same bulb as you and use between 12 and 18" as a good "warm" distance. After the first time, I most certainly noticed that "something" was going on with the marble-sized nodule. After the 4 treatments, I have seen some reduction in this nodule, but, more importantly to me, I have noticed a filling-in of an area that has been flat for the last 12 years, and overall, a much fuller erection.

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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2005, 09:42:58 PM »

Joshua, I was very intrigued by your IR treatment comments and I have now done the 30-40 minutes 4 times (once every 3 days). I am using the same bulb as you and use between 12 and 18" as a good "warm" distance. After the first time, I most certainly noticed that "something" was going on with the marble-sized nodule. After the 4 treatments, I have seen some reduction in this nodule, but, more importantly to me, I have noticed a filling-in of an area that has been flat for the last 12 years, and overall, a much fuller erection.
Jaysum:
Thanks for the update on your treatments with the IR. I feel this is one of the most effective home/self treatments we can utilize. It is inexpensive, appears safe, and has logic backing it.  I think this “process” breaks the collagen down and allows the body to repair the area. If you keep up with the treatments, I think/hope you will see similar results that I enjoyed. You should see the marble size nodule shrink away. However, you might be left with an indention in the area. I am working on “repairing” a small indention I had left after IR with ved treatments. I feel a slight indention is much safer and healthier than a piece of plaque. I also realized a complete return of my erection strength and reduction of curve. Keep up the treatments Jaysum and keep us informed. You may also want to add L-Arginine, high gamma Vit E, and L-carnitine to your supplements, if you are not already doing so.

Best Wishes and thanks for the post and great news!
Joshua
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BlackEyes

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2005, 07:21:31 PM »

what is IR? Is it like ultasound?
and has anybody heard anything about the hyperthermia treatments?
thanks 8)
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dcaptain

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2005, 04:39:59 PM »

To Joshua:

I have a question for you that I'm hoping you can help me with, as you are basically the "heating expert" of the forum.  I've been using a heating pad, and honestly, it seems to be somewhat helpful.  The heating pad gets pretty warm, upwards of 100 degrees, and after about a 20 minute session, things seem the most "normal" (for lack of a better word) than they do at other times.  However, I'm wondering about switching to a IR/heating bulb, as I honestly have no idea as to whether I'm getting any IR heat from the pad.  I guess I don't know the difference.  Anyways, what I'm wondering is this....

When you used the 250 watt bulb, did you in any way get sunburned, or did it irritate the skin?  I'm just concerned about any irritation.

THANK YOU for any information you can share; your insight is most appreciated.

dcaptain
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Joshua

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Re: Alternative Treatments for Peyronie's Disease
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2005, 04:58:07 PM »

You do not have to worry about sunburn with infrared light/lamp. UV type light causes sunburn. Therefore, to answer your question no I never did get sunburn. I had the light back a foot or more and never even had redness when I was finished with a “treatment”.  If you keep the light source far enough back and move it back in little increments as it feels :just too hot" than you should not see any irritation or redness of any kind. I have not.

I think the heating pad could help and certainly should not hurt. However, you are correct you are not getting any infrared light from a heating pad. The warmth or heat from any source might benefit.

However, I believe to have the potential to see real results with heat, you should try the IR lamp. The IR penetrates deep into the tissue or in our cases plaques. 

Keep us posted. I have private messages from several guys that are trying IR. I think I benefited from it.

Joshua
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