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Author Topic: VED use vs natural erection  (Read 3472 times)

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Glassglue

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VED use vs natural erection
« on: May 13, 2015, 01:36:02 PM »

Only into this Peyronie's thing a couple of months and taking the cialis, pentox, ad infinitum, and am considering a med grade VED which has been universally recommended.

But with the cialis, and now more so with testosterone replacement I think, I am getting woken up by erections almost every morning at 4 or 5 o'clock (unfortunately without horniness to go with them as yet. My dislike of my penis right now makes sex seem unpleasant) that can last over an hour. Will having these be as effective as using a VED, especially since they are full erections compared with the 20-30% erect condition recommended with those devices?  I understand some VEDs come with multiple cylinder sizes to coerce the penis back to straight, but could that also not be achieved with manual manipulation while erect?

I want to understand how this works so as to not go through the hassle and cost if I can avoid it, although I may anyway ultimately just to have my bases covered I suppose.

Another question is whether in the experience of those who have had success a VED actually causes the shrinkage or disappearance of plaques. I'm guessing that it is more likely that the improvement in deformity is due to the stretching of the healthy tunica around the plaques that compensates for their inelasticity, but don't know.
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Jonbinspain

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2015, 02:17:35 PM »

Erections are almost always good. It's One sign of healthy blood flow into the penis. The difference between the two is that VED produces arterial blood to force the penis erect without sexual arousement. It also forces blood into all parts of the penis, including the location(s) of any plaque.


As to whether any reshaping results are from stretching the plaque or the tissue around it, I'm not so sure.

For advice and general knowledge about the use of VED, send a P.M. To Old Man. He's our resident expert on VED usage.
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kuaka

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2015, 12:09:20 PM »

For visual aid, consider the following mental picture.  Cheese cloth, sewn into a tube, around one of those thin balloons a clown makes animals out of.  Orientation of the fibers is radial and longitudinal, as opposed to angled.  As you blow up the balloon, the fibers stretch to their limit (they are essentially inelastic...they don't stretch, merely are pulled out to their actual length).  Ultimately, the length of the radial fibers determines girth limit and length of the longitudinal fibers determines length.

Now, put a glob of wax on the cloth while the balloon is deflated.  Let it harden, then inflate the balloon.  This is a visual picture of classic Peyronies Disease. 

Put the balloon-penis into a constraining cylinder and attempt inflation by evacuation of said cylinder.  This is a VED in action.  It will put stress on the wax blob, and eventually cause it to stretch even though it is also inelastic.  Either the blob itself stretches or the fibers it impedes stretch, either is acceptable at this point. 

At some time, the balloon penis will now be able to be blown up without the bend being so severe as to make it unusable.  This is the conservative goal of Peyronies Disease treatment, and VED is a mostly physical way to accomplish it. 

Traction devices attempt to do the "stretch" without the inflation, and are also viable.

Nutritional supplements and collagen softening drugs are akin to heating the wax to make it more pliable/elastic.

Plaque is really a misleading term, as it is really just scar tissue in response to a perceived injury.  Whether a real injury, multiple micro injuries or just a mis queue is somewhat immaterial at this point, except if a mis queue, it needs to be reset if possible.  Something has caused the scarring to happen, and if that something continues, more scarring will likely occur.

A successful treatment for Peyronies Disease without resorting to surgery may currently involve all of the above.

Surgeries are mostly Neanderthal if you ask me, as Plication is merely making an equal restriction on the opposite side in order to "correct" the curve.  I would prefer it if they could figure out how to remove the plaque and replace it with fibrous tissue which approximates the original, but that seems to be a bit out of reach at present. 

Cause is not definitively determined, but may be from some of these:

Excessive masturbation can cause multiple micro injuries.  Rough sex or poor position can cause a single injury.  Diet lacking in certain nutrients or having excessive other things can cause a mis queue...for instance, use of glucosamine to help with joint problems can cause excessive collagen which may make connections between the radial and longitudinal fibers of the penis like the wax blob on the cheese cloth tube.

At least that is this engineer's view of Peyronies Disease...

New research into adult stem cells and their ability to be "taught" to become something else may be something directed to this area eventually, but being as the only life threatening aspect of this condition is suicidal tendencies, it will be a while before attention is focused here instead of liver/lung/kidney and other such critical organs.  A study is now under way on adult stem cells and liver regeneration, but since the liver tends to do that anyway, that is kindergarten still.  We are years away from anything on this front.

Erectile Dysfunction can also accompany Peyronies Disease, and the lack of becoming fully erect can allow the scar tissue to build up where it might not otherwise have opportunity. 

My own story is one of lifelong sexual addiction (SA) to masturbation for comfort, escalated as physical injuries stacked up physical pain.  Needing more stimulation in order to achieve the pain relief I sought led to increased use of pornography. 

The escalation rose to the point of Porn Induced Erectile Deficiency (PIED) and getting over that involved what is termed in SA circles as a "reboot".  This reboot involved a long period (6 months or so) of NO sexual activity, which I believe is what actually allowed my plaque to develop.  It wasn't there before.  It did not manifest when "morning wood" returned (a sign of a successful reboot from PIED), but shortly thereafter. 

Add to this the fact that I have used glucosamine for injured knees for years, and that I had an old Penis injury as well and it appears that only thing keeping me from having Peyronies Disease years ago was my masturbation habit.  So I went from PIED to just Peyronies Disease.  Also, my testosterone level is only half of the low end of normal for my age.

My Peyronies Disease treatment is now consisting of:

Traction: Home made traction device
VED: Home made VED device
Testosterone: DEPO-T injections monthly, some Androgel until I run out...
No more Glucosamine:
Supplements: E, B6, D3, L-Argenine, L-Carnitine, CoQ-10 (seeking straight Ubiquinol), Horny Goat Weed, and a few others.

I may seek a daily Cialis scrip from my GP, who knows nothing about my Peyronies Disease, and probably won't...he's an old guy, and certainly not a specialist in "man" problems.  Or, I might just purchase it online from a foreign website.  I've used one before for Cytomel for treating Wilson's Temperature Syndrome for my wife (there aren't very many WTS aware Dr's either).  I have used Viagra before with mixed results.  Erections were great with it, even the next day (only 25 mg needed), but side effects of headache and stuffy nose were just too much.
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Glassglue

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2015, 03:54:40 PM »

Ok thanks for all that info! Especially interesting about the nature of the fibers in the tunica. I'm still thinking that erections and vacuum (also from an engineers perspective) would work the same way. Except that reviewing the protocols for use of a VED I see that they call for inflating and deflating the penis 10 times over the course of a session. Perhaps that is more effective than maintaining inflation for a prolonged period.

I guess it was more of a rhetorical question anyway as after a minutes consideration I intend to pursue the use of the VED regardless. I have to do anything and everything to get my old self back, even though I will maybe always feel more of a science project than a virile man. The magic is gone I fear.

I had never heard of PIED until this viewing this forum. I had no obvious cause for this curse. There was a little blood in my urine one day for no apparent reason that checked out negative at the dr for uti and psa and then bam three months later I'm Googling something I never dreamed existed. However actually I'm pretty sure I'd felt a tiny nodule developing about six months prior to seeing the blood that I didn't think much of, which was immediately after losing 45 lbs (too) quickly through diet and exercise and also developing Raynaud's.  I had gained the extra weight just one year before and developed metabolic disorder and diabetes apparently as a result, both of which immediately resolved after the weight loss. I will never sort it all out I'm afraid, but I think I pretty well screwed myself just by gaining thirty pounds after an injury.

How is your regimen working for you kuala?
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kuaka

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2015, 04:26:51 PM »

Yes, up and down a few times.  The logic seems to me that if you "hold" an "erection" which is strong enough to "stretch" the plaque it may be perceived as an injury and only encourage more scar tissue...a.k.a. plaque...and defeat the entire purpose.  Gradual progress is much more sustainable.  Like crash diets will lose weight, but you gain it and more back.  A gradual weight loss includes habit changes which result is a sustained improvement.  Tearing the scar to the point that it scars up even more thickly would be counterproductive.

I'm between the proverbial rock and hard place myself, as I need to manipulate my penile tissue regularly in order to work the scarring out of it, but cannot return to masturbation as pain relief.  My freedom from that cycle is in part due to actual pain management medications, but while I believe that effort contributed to my condition, it is really a separate thing at this point as it contributed to Erectile Dysfunction in general.
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Glassglue

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2015, 05:15:39 PM »

Perhaps you are right about the erections, but I don't think I am going to be able to do much to stop them. After reading so many stories on here I feel grateful I can still get them. I see a lot of people here blaming an injury or a behavior for their condition but it all seems so anecdotal. If excessive masturbation or rough sex were to blame I would think this problem would be rampant among pubescent teens. I know I was much rougher back then and on at least a daily basis. But really I don't know anything.

I am seeing a rheumatologist in a couple of months however. I've seen Peyronie's refered to as a connective tissue disease, as is Raynaud's. I also have problems with arthritis and have torn several tendons (the latest of which resulted in the weight gain), as well as having other suspicious symptoms, including keloid scarring. I had one evaluation already looking for the major ones like lupus and scleroderma which were both negative.
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james1947

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2015, 07:37:30 PM »

Glassglue

The origin of your statement:
Quote
I see a lot of people here blaming an injury or a behavior for their condition but it all seems so anecdotal.
Comes for not investing enough time in reading the forum. If you will read, you will find out the testimonies of forum members (not anecdotes) about what happened to them.

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

Glassglue

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2015, 08:19:17 AM »

Actually James and not to start an argument but personal stories are by definition anecdotes. I meant that I've seen little or nothing about large scale studies with a lot of data looking at causes. Perhaps again I have just missed them.
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Old Man

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2015, 08:23:45 AM »

Special Note to all VED users:

Now, we are getting the intent behind the VED therapy. It does work, at least for me.  I have spread many times on this forum this statement about vacuum pressure:

MORE repetitions with LESS vacuum is much better than LESS repetitions with MORE vacuum! Long holding times of vacuum pressure does not IMHO create an atmosphere for good therapy since it tends to stagnate the blood. Fresh blood entering and leaving the erectile tissue brings much more oxygen, etc.

The theory behind this is what one poster stated about higher vacuum causing more scar tissue. So, bottom line in my therapy, is to ''exercise the erectile tissue" better by using more pump ups, deflating, relax the pressure and pump up again. The protocols for VED therapy are intended to be a GUIDE for VED users. Since no one protocol will work for each and every case of Peyronies Disease, they must be adapted to each individual case of Peyronies Disease.

The above carries my usual caveat: Let the user beware before using VED therapy, and use it at your own risk.

The makers of most VEDs tout them for penis enlargement.  However, I can personally attest to the fact that the VED therapy after just over almost daily session rid me of my case of Peyronies Disease.  And, as a bonus restored my ability to get and keep erections long for sex even at the age of 85 plus!!!

I agree that some supplements can and will play a part in softening the scar tissue so that the vacuum therapy can help remold it or remove it. Supplements also must be tailored to each individual case of Peyronies Disease as well.

Old Man
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Age 91. Peyronies Disease at age 24, Peyronies Disease after radical prostatectomy in 1995. Heart surgery 2004 with three bypasses/three stents. Three stents in 2016. Hiatal hernia surgery 2017 with 1/3 stomach reduction. Many other surgeries in the last 10 years.

kuaka

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2015, 08:51:00 AM »

We do indeed look for causes.  It is the nature of the human to want to know "why".  It is also actually important, and perhaps this disorder will eventually be explained satisfactorily. 

It was only knowing "why" that finally enabled me to break my PMO habit, which had led to being PIED.  That particular "why" had to do with childhood, and is not a subject suitable for this forum. 

The fact that Peyronies Disease is defined symptomatically will make knowing "why" more difficult, as there may be several causes for similar symptoms.  There are also different means for the same or similar symptoms to manifest, which only complicates it further.  We really need to understand the "condition" more and divide it into pieces which can each be traced to a particular cause independently of the others.  To illustrate, if we look at "why" toe nails are lost, we need to separate fungal infection from injury, even though they both may result in the loss of the nail.  The larger "condition" of tissue interference with erection needs to be differentiated into categories which are likely to have the same cause in order to facilitate determination of cause.

I don't think it is coincidental that Peyronies Disease didn't affect ME until AFTER I stopped continual manipulation of the tissue.  Since Peyronies Disease is a scarring response, there may be MANY actual causes...some legitimate instant injuries, some seemingly minor injuries but still sufficient either in magnitude or repetition to stimulate scarring, and some simply a case of errant self "repair" signals.  You will note that when I discuss what I believe to be the "cause" of my Peyronies Disease, I always phrase it with "I believe".  That right there says that I am not stating a "known fact", only a reasoned belief.

What I would like to see is a study of the younger victims of this disorder to see if we can get a feel for their use of porn and masturbation.  Corelational data is indeed valid.  Profiling works. 

The entire subject of PIED is a relatively new thing, due in part to the ready availability of high speed Internet presentation of erotica.  I believe there is a relationship, as excessive masturbation may indeed cause enough micro injuries to stimulate scarring.  While anecdotal in nature, a survey might assist.  Knowing how many of the victims of Peyronies Disease are or were heavily into porn and masturbation may indeed be the start of knowing why.  Knowing why may help prevent it in future generations, and may lead to more effective treatment as well.

I have had both a severe penile injury and years of excessive masturbation, and yet had NO signs of Peyronies Disease until after STOPPING the masturbation.  I don't believe it coincidental.
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james1947

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2015, 06:04:35 PM »

This topic become a "Causes of Peyronies" and not "VED use vs natural erection" as the tile of the topic opened by Glassglue.
Please all of us be ON topic (like Old Man), otherwise I will have to delete posts.

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum

Glassglue

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2015, 01:52:17 PM »

Sorry James.

I will just say that correlation is not the same thing as cause and effect.  How many people with penile injuries do not develop Peyronie's? How many without obvious injuries do? That is the kind of info one needs to make conclusions. And even so, as you say, there may well be more than one cause.

Regardless and back on topic, I have ordered an Augusta Vitality system thanks to the recommendation from Old Man. I never ever thought I would be buying one of these but there ya go. An ego is not something I can apparently afford to maintain right now. I don't have a lot of overall curvature,but rather a bunch of small bends and curves, dents/flattening, and shortening (yeah it looks like it was in an industrial accident) so a single cylinder should work ok I guess.

I will follow the protocols listed in this forum and try not to over do it. And try to hold on to some optimism. It will be like ten additional cycles of gentle stretching every day in addition to whatever natural erections happen. Maybe that will pop out some of those dents and get it back to its old size.  Maybe.
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Nemo

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2015, 04:38:29 PM »

I hear you on the "industrial accident" look.  I often think mine looks like a car that's been in a minor head-on collision and at first glance you think it's ok, then you start noticing all sorts of buckling in the body panels. Like yours, my problem is various dents, depressions, etc. 

Nemo
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kuaka

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2015, 10:04:43 PM »

Sorry for the wandering, James.  I'll try and stay more thread specific in the future.  :)
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james1947

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Re: VED use vs natural erection
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2015, 08:19:33 AM »

Quote from Kuaka:
Quote
I'll try and stay more thread specific in the future.
Myself too :)

James
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Age 71, Peyronies from Jan 2009 following penis fracture during sex. Severe Erectile Dysfunction.
Lost 2" length and a lot of girth. Late start, still VED, Cialis & Pentox helped. Prostate surgery 2014.
Got amazing support on the forum
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